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HeXxploiT
Little Red X
21
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Posted - 2014.05.07 18:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
So will the Nightmare be getting a DPS buff with the new changes?
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
Seems to me if they had dropped the 25% caldari BS bonus and then made the bonus to large energy turret 125% that would have kept the dps unchanged but with 150% large energy turret bonus this is actually a 12.5% overall dps buff.
Did I do my math correctly? |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
390
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Posted - 2014.05.07 18:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote: Did I do my math correctly?
No.
Multiply, don't add. |
Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2014.05.07 19:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Assuming BS V, it doesn't get any damage boost from its bonuses. Does get a low slot, so that's some damages if you add a heat sink. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2078
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Posted - 2014.05.07 19:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:HeXxploiT wrote: Did I do my math correctly?
No. Multiply, don't add.
To make this explicit:
Current Nightmare gets 4*(1+.25)*(1+1) = 10 effective turrets at max skills.
New Nightmare gets 4*(1+1.5) = 10 effective turrets just from the role bonus and none from skills.
Pretty much all math in Eve works this way (ignoring resistances which are a bit different and stacking penalties which throw a wrench in things something awful for quick forum maths). Certainly all additive non-resistance ship bonuses are calculated this way though. For things like RoF reduction you would instead take (initial turrets)/(1-reduction rate). |
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
235
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Posted - 2014.05.07 20:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
It is a slight buff that you now get max damage from a nightmare even with Amarr BS trained to only level 1 That awkward moment at the Gentleman's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money.... |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
15402
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Posted - 2014.05.09 11:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:It is a slight buff that you now get max damage from a nightmare even with Amarr BS trained to only level 1
And ofc the extra low slot. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
839
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Posted - 2014.05.09 13:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
It won't add damage for PVE because a 5th BCS gives you almost nothing with stacking penalties. Maybe a TE for damage projection but they're pretty crappy ATM. I'm thinking a DC for extra tank and this might free a mid slot. With it's new bonus maybe an AB setup with Conflagration would be interesting. Of course I'm thinking missions because I'm far to poor to fly one in PVP.
I bet all those incursion runners who trained Caldari BS to 5 for the Nightmare are sad... Yes I get an AB bonus!... Oh wait I don't move |
Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2014.05.09 13:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Any chance +á nightmare with the new bonus will be faster with an AB than with a MWD?
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1071
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Posted - 2014.05.09 14:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
NIGHTMARE
Amarr Battleship Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed
Caldari Battleship Bonus: 30% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage) NOTE: it's been requested that I point here that this is the same total damage bonus as the ship had prior to the change. (1.25 (25% bonus) * 2.00 (100% bonus) = 2.50 (150% bonus))
Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 6L(+1); 4 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 14500 PWG, 710 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 10550(+815) / 8650(-45) / 8200(-60) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 6950 / 1154000ms(-875) / 6.0 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 114(+20) / .122(-.014) / 99300000 / 17.76s(-1.9) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets):80km / 110(+10) / 7 Sensor strength: 28 Signature radius: 370(-30)
Same total damage bonus unless Rise is wrong. The gain to be had are in the additional low slot. |
HeXxploiT
Little Red X
21
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Posted - 2014.05.09 15:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
IIshira wrote:I bet all those incursion runners who trained Caldari BS to 5 for the Nightmare are sad... Yes I get an AB bonus!... Oh wait I don't move
IIshira wrote:I bet all those incursion runners who trained Caldari BS to 5 for the Nightmare are sad... Yes I get an AB bonus!... Oh wait I don't move
No...quoting you twice was not an accident...lol... |
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1072
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Posted - 2014.05.09 15:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
IIshira wrote:It won't add damage for PVE because a 5th BCS gives you almost nothing with stacking penalties. Maybe a TE for damage projection but they're pretty crappy ATM. I'm thinking a DC for extra tank and this might free a mid slot. With it's new bonus maybe an AB setup with Conflagration would be interesting. Of course I'm thinking missions because I'm far to poor to fly one in PVP. I bet all those incursion runners who trained Caldari BS to 5 for the Nightmare are sad... Yes I get an AB bonus!... Oh wait I don't move
Won't using an AB makes the ship that much less of a cap *****? |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
1364
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Posted - 2014.05.09 17:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Its basicly the same with another low and a ****** up AB bonus which is going to be..... interesting.
I cant imagine all the pvpers will buy one though, probably just an incursion or worm hole pve boat Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
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Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
260
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Posted - 2014.05.09 19:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Odithia wrote:Any chance +á nightmare with the new bonus will be faster with an AB than with a MWD?
Assuming caldari BS V: A tech 2 AB (135% base speed) will be almost as fast as a MWD Any faction AB with a base speed increase of 140% will be just as fast as a MWD, and anything over 140% will be faster than a MWD. That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money.... |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1346
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Posted - 2014.05.10 00:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:Its basicly the same with another low and a ****** up AB bonus which is going to be..... interesting.
I cant imagine all the pvpers will buy one though, probably just an incursion or worm hole pve boat
You really underestiamtes high sec mercenaries love for shiny toys.... "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
839
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Posted - 2014.05.10 01:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:Its basicly the same with another low and a ****** up AB bonus which is going to be..... interesting.
I cant imagine all the pvpers will buy one though, probably just an incursion or worm hole pve boat You really underestiamtes high sec mercenaries love for shiny toys.... Yes because nothing like chasing a bunch of noobs around with a faction battleship. Even if they could fight back they won't so it's probably safer than missions LMAO
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Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Cruis3r's Cr3w Inc. Constructive. Criticism.
97
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Posted - 2014.05.10 03:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
IIshira wrote:It won't add damage for PVE because a 5th BCS gives you almost nothing with stacking penalties. Maybe a TE for damage projection but they're pretty crappy ATM. I'm thinking a DC for extra tank and this might free a mid slot. With it's new bonus maybe an AB setup with Conflagration would be interesting. Of course I'm thinking missions because I'm far to poor to fly one in PVP. I bet all those incursion runners who trained Caldari BS to 5 for the Nightmare are sad... Yes I get an AB bonus!... Oh wait I don't move
hmm did u ever do incursions, nm was great and in hq u move alot. And now it looks like it will even become cap stable, also i dont know yet what to add to the high. Mentioned before already but it would move as fast or faster than with mwd without the cap issues and sig bloom (ok bs but meh). |
Gregor Parud
489
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Posted - 2014.05.13 11:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
The real question is; why would anyone care how well a nightmare does in missions, because the Paladin is so much better given the fact that, on top of its other good points, is immune to TDing. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1966
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Posted - 2014.05.13 17:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:The real question is; why would anyone care how well a nightmare does in missions, because the Paladin is so much better given the fact that, on top of its other good points, is immune to TDing. debatable. also, some people prefer shield tanks for various reasons.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Gregor Parud
491
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Posted - 2014.05.14 09:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:The real question is; why would anyone care how well a nightmare does in missions, because the Paladin is so much better given the fact that, on top of its other good points, is immune to TDing. debatable. also, some people prefer shield tanks for various reasons.
No, it's not debatable.
better use of a MJD more dps more range better tank, especially in "oh ****" moments less slots wasted on tank immune to ewar cheaper fit while having more EHP, thus less of a gank target more cargo room more tractor range
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
849
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Posted - 2014.05.14 13:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:The real question is; why would anyone care how well a nightmare does in missions, because the Paladin is so much better given the fact that, on top of its other good points, is immune to TDing. debatable. also, some people prefer shield tanks for various reasons. No, it's not debatable. better use of a MJD more range better tank, especially in "oh ****" moments less slots wasted on tank immune to ewar cheaper fit while having more EHP, thus less of a gank target more cargo room more tractor range
Just to counter some of your points
better use of a MJD Of course the Paladin gets better use of a MJD... The Nightmare doesn't need one since it doesn't perform it's best at 100km. The NM will get better use of an AB.
more range Again the NM is for closer ranges than the Paladin
better tank, especially in "oh ****" moments less slots wasted on tank Less tank slots I can't argue with but I disagree with the "better tank". The Paladin can have a better tank than the NM. A properly fit mission Paladin doesn't have a better tank since it's meant for range. My Paladin only has a LAR, EANM and DC. Also the Nightmare can warp away if you're being overwhelmed. With those "Oh crap" moments in a Paladin you have to disengage Bastion and hope to god your complete lack of a tank in the time it takes you to align and warp works. Been there, done that and made it out in hull. Of course both have more than adequate tank and the only time you would have an issue is pilot error.
immune to ewar I've only had one mission where EWAR was an issue in Amarr space. I can't think of the name but it was heavy TD. With other missions it was just simply take out the EWAR ships before they moved in range. Now if the Nightmare isn't properly fit or the pilot doesn't have sufficient skills to make the DPS low this can be an issue.
cheaper fit while having more EHP, thus less of a gank target more cargo room Can't argue with those since shield modules can be expensive. I will say I've never lost a Nightmare in highsec but that's because I'm careful.
more tractor range I stay at 70 to 100km out in my Paladin so I only use the tractor beam to scoop the mission item. If you use it to loot this is a good thing.
I won't argue that the Paladin puts out more applied DPS than the NM since you can blast things at range. This translates to more ISK per hour. You have to remember not everyone cares about always getting max ISK per hour. I for one plan to try a in your face Mega Pulse NM once the changes happen. With the AB bonus I bet it would be fun. |
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Gregor Parud
494
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Posted - 2014.05.14 17:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
how is a paladin "meant" for range, it runs the same tach setup as a NM and while it loses out on a ship tracking bonus it gets the free midslots to, at least partially, make up for that.
TD is ALWAYS an issue, unless the target you shoot at has no transversal and is still within optimal.
NM and pally operate pretty much the same; they're best at 20-80km, anything beyond 80 and you drop applied dps. The pally is cheaper and easier to tank, less of a target, can dual prop with AB and mjd, gets tractor bonus.
Honestly, it's not even a contest.
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Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2014.05.14 17:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Paladin get a bonus to range. Nightmare get a bonus to tracking.
Also Have a look at Bastion Module I. |
Gregor Parud
494
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Posted - 2014.05.14 23:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
just because it gets a range bonus doesn't mean it should sit at 100km not using MF or being out of optimal. |
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
298
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Posted - 2014.05.15 02:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
Or do what I do. ~1300dps Pulse fit at 35km optimal with conflag. I still get over 900 dps at 96km with scorch.
Tachs are for NM, Pulse are for Paladin. That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money.... |
Gregor Parud
495
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Posted - 2014.05.15 07:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Or do what I do. ~1300dps Pulse fit at 35km optimal with conflag. I still get over 900 dps at 96km with scorch.
Tachs are for NM, Pulse are for Paladin.
While it certainly makes sense to go pulse as you can dual prop the pala with AB and MJD (so range is never an issue) it's not necessarily logical. Pulses are fine when you're dealing with EM weak targets but absolutely horrendous when you're shooting EM tanked targets at range because the longer range crystal you use the less thermal you do (Scorch is ~80% EM).
And thus the recurring logic for mission laser boats is that since pulses are only logical to use against EM weak stuff and since beams are so close in dps (compared to other long range turret types the dps is quite good) you might as well treat beams as the #1 fitting and pulses as the exception. |
Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2014.05.15 08:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
I've found Tachyon/MJD dualprop Paladin to be more effective than Pulse/MWD. I suspect that is because of Scorch doing mostly EM damage. |
Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
19
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Posted - 2014.05.15 08:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
Use your MJD to jump to enemies. Your tank should be big enough in a paladin. I often put a web in one of my mids, to compensate for poor conflag tracking. It just melts faces(ships(faces in ships)).
The only big point of the nightmare in my eyes is the afterburner bonus. If you want a fast mobile tach platform use it. I would stick with the paladin for everything else. Amarr BS5 assumed. |
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
298
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Posted - 2014.05.15 10:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Last Wolf wrote:Or do what I do. ~1300dps Pulse fit at 35km optimal with conflag. I still get over 900 dps at 96km with scorch.
Tachs are for NM, Pulse are for Paladin. While it certainly makes sense to go pulse as you can dual prop the pala with AB and MJD (so range is never an issue) it's not necessarily logical. Pulses are fine when you're dealing with EM weak targets but absolutely horrendous when you're shooting EM tanked targets at range because the longer range crystal you use the less thermal you do (Scorch is ~80% EM). And thus the recurring logic for mission laser boats is that since pulses are only logical to use against EM weak stuff and since beams are so close in dps (compared to other long range turret types the dps is quite good) you might as well treat beams as the #1 fitting and pulses as the exception.
Don't do Angel missions in a Paladin?
My Paladin is for EM weak missions. My Golem or Tengu is for everything non-em weak. That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money.... |
Gregor Parud
495
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Posted - 2014.05.15 11:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Guristas say hello. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
851
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Posted - 2014.05.15 11:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
I use a Tachyon Beam setup because it makes more sense for how I play. If you like the close in fighting perhaps the Mega Pulse is better for you.
From these numbers the advantage Mega Pulse lasers get is using Conflagration within 33 km with an extra 188 DPS. So for those that use it close up Mega Pulse would make sense. This is if you don't use 3 heat sinks instead of 4 to buff up your close in tank. If you do that you only get an extra 133 DPS.
For those using Mega Pulse lasers at range with Scorch you lose DPS. Even using a MJD to keep range I'm shooting at rats within 70 km most of the time. If I was using Scorch I would lose 163 DPS.
Here are the DPS numbers. All setups are 4 IN heat sinks, 1 T2 Energy Burst Aerator rig and 3 T2 TC with optimal range scrips. Basicly max DPS + max range
Mega Pulse Conflagration 1228 DPS @ 33 + 21 Scorch 877 DPS @ 99 + 21 IN Radio 458 DPS @ 106 + 21
Tachyon Beam IN MF 1040 DPS @ 73 + 51 IN Gamma 953 DPS @ 91 + 51 IN Xray 867 DPS @ 109 + 51 |
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