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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Gavin Dax
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
26
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Posted - 2014.05.17 02:12:00 -
[601] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote: 3. Devs catering to player whining creates an entitled atmosphere and leads to further complaining which puts off prospective players and is detrimental to the game as a whole. In many ways CCP would be better with a strict "no SP eve" policy.
Another way to phrase this is "devs listening to player opinion creates a positive atmosphere and leads to a better game which attracts prospective players and is good for everyone as a whole".
You only call it whining because you disagree. |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2014.05.17 02:49:00 -
[602] - Quote
Daenika wrote: I'm not sure where I stand on the topic, but I don't think it's really that much to ask that if SDO is trained up to an equal level or higher than CDO when the patch hits (ie. you're gaining no benefit from having CDO at that level from there forward), to refund the SPs in CDO.
+1 |
Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
1928
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Posted - 2014.05.17 06:16:00 -
[603] - Quote
I still think the only fair thing for everyone would be to not grant any extra SP at all AND to ensure that people don't lose abilities after the change. This conflicts as the same abilities need more SP after the change. The only way I can figure out to solve this is by giving out those SP necessary to keep your abilities as "credit" you need to pay for by a forced training pause, as I've mentioned earlier in the thread.
Now, that'd be fair, but everyone will flame me because of that, and it's also complicated and would probably need some implementation work to be done to make possible, so .. it's fair but not necessarily the best solution.
Assuming the "nobody should lose abilities" point has highest priority, which makes sense imo, the next best solution in terms of fairness is the currently announced one: * Everyone gets to keep their abilities * Nobody gets more SP than needed for them to keep their abilities to not artificially widen the gap to new players even more. |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1093
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Posted - 2014.05.17 11:16:00 -
[604] - Quote
I have almost perfect drone skills, so i am just screwed.
Thank you CCP. I am looking forward to training 4 races of tech II sentries for what I have now, as well as whatever else you are going to make me do. It's to early in the morning to calculate how many months that will take, but I am a paying customer so I am sure you will enjoy my money in the meantime.
So no harm done right!
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Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
33
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Posted - 2014.05.17 11:39:00 -
[605] - Quote
Daenika wrote:The beef the OP and others have is that, if you have Scout Drone Operation at V, it doesn't matter WHAT you have Combat Drone Operation at, you'll get the same skills at V after Kronos. Effectively, that means the SP you put into Combat Drone Operation are meaningless.
However, this only applies if you have SDO at at least equal level to CDO. If you have CDO at a higher level than SDO, you get benefit from that CDO after patch.
The reason they made it the highest of CDO and SDO is that the new skills are going to be providing the bonuses of CDO (just specific to lights or mediums instead of both), but the new skills are also what's going to govern access to T2 lights and mediums, which is currently governed by SDO. Thus, as standard for CCP, if you can fly it before, you can fly it after (except apparently T2 Sentries without racial specialization trained, because {reasons}), and thus if you can use T2 lights/mediums (ie have SDO V), you should also have the new LDO and MDO at V to continue allowing the use of the T2s.
The problem is, CDO isn't strictly being split. CDO is being split, and module/drone pre-requisites are then being transferred from, SDO to the new LDO and MDO.
The only pain point for this is if you have SDO trained at least as high as CDO, since it basically means that the up to 512,000 SP (~8-12 days) you put into CDO were functionally wasted.
This is particularly pertinent because the Devs only updated with the Scout Drone Operation addendum 2 days after the initial post, so anyone that started training CDO V when they first posted the change (to take advantage of the split) functionally wasted 2 days, minimum, after they updated and it became apparent that you could gain the same benefit, *plus* Drone Avionics V, by training SDO up instead of CDO up (at half the training time to boot).
I'm not sure where I stand on the topic, but I don't think it's really that much to ask that if SDO is trained up to an equal level or higher than CDO when the patch hits (ie. you're gaining no benefit from having CDO at that level from there forward), to refund the SPs in CDO.
Good post, I agree fully.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21773
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Posted - 2014.05.17 12:53:00 -
[606] - Quote
Daenika wrote:I'm not sure where I stand on the topic, but I don't think it's really that much to ask that if SDO is trained up to an equal level or higher than CDO when the patch hits (ie. you're gaining no benefit from having CDO at that level from there forward), to refund the SPs in CDO. It rather is. Not only are you being given free SP over those who haven't trained those skills; you are also being given GÇö not refunded GÇö even more SP, and solely for the petty reason that someone else accidentally got more SP than you did.
That is indeed quite a lot to ask, and it doesn't make much sense that being given stuff for free somehow means you are owed more stuff for free.
The only way a GÇ£refundGÇ¥ would work would be if it wasn't a refund at all, but a forced application of SP. In other words, everyone GÇö regardless of skills GÇö is being given the 756k extra SP that some will end up with. Next, rather than a refund, that bonus SP is reduced by how much SP is being folded into the new skill levels you earn. That way, no-one is getting more than anyone else; no-one is being GÇ£refundedGÇ¥ for making a profit; and only players who enter the game after the patch are left behind. This is maximum fairness. It is also minimises the status quo; the more you trained, the more others will rush ahead.
A similar effect could be achieved by just removing the skills outright and giving only pure SP back GÇö no skill transition. So someone with both skills at V would be given 768k SP that they could fold back into the new 1024k worth of skill levels. This also maximises fairness (no-one is being given anything), but still stomps all over the status quo (if you trained any of the skills, it will be impossible to go back to your previous position).
The kind of strict hand-out people are wishing for with their not-refund is another extreme: it makes for maximum unfairness GÇö the more you trained the more you get for free GÇö and maintains status quo only in the sense that those ahead come out (further) ahead.
The solution CCP has chosen is really the one that maximises both fairness and status quo: the smallest possible handouts, and people end up as close as possible to where they are today. It's a compromise between the two, but that's pretty much what has to happen because what the change does makes it impossible to make it fully fair and still maintain status quo. This entire thread is about people trying to maintain a status quo (which isn't really possible since the state after the changes is inherently different from the one before; the two simply cannot be the same) while appealing to fairness. Hence why I keep calling that kind of argumentation nonsensical: it's an attempt to maximise one end of the scale by making an appeal that it will (somehow) maximise its inherently incompatible opposite.
In other words, if you want to make an argument for fairness, your argument must be for fairness (which none of them have been), and this will differ completely from any kind of status quo position. If you want to make an argument for status quo, you argument should be for status quo, which cannot possibly be fair. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9903
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Posted - 2014.05.17 13:21:00 -
[607] - Quote
Why would it be unfair to refund CDO SP? I'm really curious as to this aspect of the argument. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21773
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Posted - 2014.05.17 13:43:00 -
[608] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why would it be unfair to refund CDO SP? For the exact same reason as why people want the refund. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
33
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Posted - 2014.05.17 13:45:00 -
[609] - Quote
How about we ignore the requirement that people are able to use the same modules/systems that they can now and just refund whatever amount of SP people have in SDO and CDO when the patch hits, without giving people the new skills (except the skillbooks, they should appear in hangar). Then we can distribute as we see fit and train up the rest.
That would be equally fair for everyone, noone gains or loses SP. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21773
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 13:49:00 -
[610] - Quote
Logan Revelore wrote:How about we forego the requirement that people are able to use the same modules/systems that they can now and just refund whatever amount of SP people have in SDO and CDO when the patch hits, without giving people the new skills (except the skillbooks, they should appear in hangar). Then we can distribute as we see fit and train up the rest.
That would be equally fair for everyone, noone gains or loses SP. That would indeed be a fair method, but the amount of complains from people who'd have to lose either their bonuses or their drones would be monumental. Just look at the grumbling from those who have might have to spend upwards of a whole two hours to get their T2 sentries backGǪ
There's a reason why CCP prioritises kept abilities over things like SP and fairness. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2014.05.17 14:44:00 -
[611] - Quote
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:I still think the only fair thing for everyone would be to not grant any extra SP at all AND to ensure that people don't lose abilities after the change. This conflicts as the same abilities need more SP after the change. The only way I can figure out to solve this is by giving out those SP necessary to keep your abilities as "credit" you need to pay for by a forced training pause, as I've mentioned earlier in the thread.
Now, that'd be fair, but everyone will flame me because of that, and it's also complicated and would probably need some implementation work to be done to make possible, so .. it's fair but not necessarily the best solution.
Assuming the "nobody should lose abilities" point has highest priority, which makes sense imo, the next best solution in terms of fairness is the currently announced one: * Everyone gets to keep their abilities * Nobody gets more SP than needed for them to keep their abilities to not artificially widen the gap to new players even more.
Here's and idea:
As it stands now, after the patch an SDO 5 will be equal to an SDO5 + CDO5 person. In this respect CDO5 isn't needed. Instead of disregarding CDO5 in this fashion, create 2 new skill call Advanced Light Drone Operation and Advanced Medium Drone Operation.
Reduce the amount of damage that LDO and MDO do by 2.5% and give ALDO and AMDO that 2.5% bonus.
An SDO 5 player is still able to fly what he could before, MDO5 players get no skill points but get to keep their advantage. I'll admit I don't have the specifics worked out, but it's an idea. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1333
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Posted - 2014.05.17 16:49:00 -
[612] - Quote
As the OP already gave to links to relevant discussion threads on this topic and given the fact that this thread is running arround in circles in such a way that it makes me dizzy, this thread gets a lock.
The rules: 16. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.
As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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