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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:12:00 -
[601] - Quote
wtf? did you even read what I wrote?
The problem is neither the damage application nor the speed nor the range, it is the COMBINATION of ALL IN ONE SHIP.
The Cerb has good range, good damage, but can easily be catched by speedcruisers and is then slaughtered in the infight. The Orthrus cannot and has still all the other advantages.
Comparing the Cerb to the Orthrus is like comparing the Omen to the NavyOmen (which is far superior compared to the Omen, even if DPS and Tank look not so much different). |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3574
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:19:00 -
[602] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:wtf? did you even read what I wrote? Yes, and if the Orthrus was worse than the Cerberus I'd actually be concerned... Pirate ships are supposed to be better than T2. In any event, I'm more keen on the Barghest anyway - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the Orthrus as proposed. As for the Cerberus, if it sucks, well... "I didn't build the f**king thing." I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Rajeet Achmar
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
8
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:24:00 -
[603] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:wtf? did you even read what I wrote?
The problem is neither the damage application nor the speed nor the range, it is the COMBINATION of ALL IN ONE SHIP.
The Cerb has good range, good damage, but can easily be catched by speedcruisers and is then slaughtered in the infight. The Orthrus cannot and has still all the other advantages.
Comparing the Cerb to the Orthrus is like comparing the Omen to the NavyOmen (which is far superior compared to the Omen, even if DPS and Tank look not so much different).
Cant be caught? Today I learned that when engaging a cruiser your required to use a cruiser.
And that you have to use RLMLs 100% of the time.
Also everyone forgets that damage application for missiles sucks, like literally is the worst thing ever, on paper DPS says "500" on a normal PVP fit, and actual applied dps to a target moving at 400-2k (depending on MWD/AB/etc) will be a lot less then the "on paper" DPS.
Explosion radius is no joke. |
Rajeet Achmar
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
8
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:27:00 -
[604] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: You can download the data files for eft from reddit. I've already put together some fits to check the numbers. Of course there are compromises, but the results are staggering.
The best dps I got from the cruiser was 1200(!!) overheated. This was with t2 hams, 4 faction bcu, t2 damage rig and some implants.
This is a *lot* of damage from a dual Asb tanked cruiser that absolutely dictates range and delivers its massive dps at range.
You can pull that much dps and more out of a vigilant with faction damage mods, t2 rigs, implants, etc, but its going to be an absolute **** pvp ship. A realistic PVP orthus will be putting out 300-600dps depending on skills, which isnt that far fetched considering I can put out that much in some t1 cruisers fit for pvp... |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:28:00 -
[605] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Syzygium wrote:wtf? did you even read what I wrote? Yes, and if the Orthrus was worse than the Cerberus I'd actually be concerned... Pirate ships are supposed to be better than T2. In any event, I'm more keen on the Barghest anyway - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the Orthrus as proposed. In that case you have a very strange understanding of "worse". In a potential duel, the Orthrus just *wipes floor* with the Cerb any time.
Orbit at 40km, Mjolnir Missles and just wait for the Cerb to pop. The Cerb has no way of escape, nor can it break the 40.000 eHP vs Kin that the Orthrus has, because it has only 23.000 eHP vs EM itself. It just goes down without *any* risk for the Orthrus.
But, if that is *worse* in your opinion, I don't want to know what you would see as *equal* or even *better*.
Also, try to name me a SINGLE ship, that can face a kiting Orthrus 1on1, even with the most blingbling available. There is none. All ships that can possibly keep tackle will die long before the Orthrus and all ships that can possibly kill the Orthrus have no chance to hold the tackle, so the Orthrus just leaves the field. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:32:00 -
[606] - Quote
Rajeet Achmar wrote:Also everyone forgets that damage application for missiles sucks, like literally is the worst thing ever, on paper DPS says "500" on a normal PVP fit, and actual applied dps to a target moving at 400-2k (depending on MWD/AB/etc) will be a lot less then the "on paper" DPS.
Explosion radius is no joke. The Explosion Radius for Fury Light Missiles is 51... So the damage application against anything that tries to catch the Orthrus is nearly 100%, maybe except boosted Interceptors, which die in 3 shots anyway.
So much for paper DPS. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
197
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:34:00 -
[607] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Syzygium wrote:wtf? did you even read what I wrote? Yes, and if the Orthrus was worse than the Cerberus I'd actually be concerned... Pirate ships are supposed to be better than T2. In any event, I'm more keen on the Barghest anyway - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the Orthrus as proposed. In that case you have a very strange understanding of "worse". In a potential duel, the Orthrus just *wipes floor* with the Cerb any time. Orbit at 40km, Mjolnir Missles and just wait for the Cerb to pop. The Cerb has no way of escape, nor can it break the 40.000 eHP vs Kin that the Orthrus has, because it has only 23.000 eHP vs EM itself. It just goes down without *any* risk for the Orthrus. But, if that is *worse* in your opinion, I don't want to know what you would see as *equal* or even *better*. Also, try to name me a SINGLE ship, that can face a kiting Orthrus 1on1, even with the most blingbling available. There is none. All ships that can possibly keep tackle will die long before the Orthrus and all ships that can possibly kill the Orthrus have no chance to hold the tackle, so the Orthrus just leaves the field.
Uh, you realize the Ishtar is a thing, right? Someone posted a HML fit claiming 400 DPS at 80km is broken. Well, the Ishtar does 600 dps at that range with near perfect application too. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Mordus Angels
896
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:36:00 -
[608] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Onictus wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:http://puu.sh/8Kvy8.png
Stealing this from sharpt..
That is pretty much my definition of ******* broken. With LG snakes, a billion in booster (not to mention the second toon) etc etc. Looks like the nerf T3 argument, blow two bil on ships boosters and implants .....for a cruiser.....and whine about it being broken. Balance by cost doesn't really work. It especially doesn't work when you aren't putting most of your isk at any real risk. These ships are dumb without links. With links they are broken as all hell.
So you are saying that you can't accomplish something similar with HACs or T3s in the same price range, speically when you are willing to dump 2 billion into things that aren't the hull? |
JEFFRAIDER
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
312
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:38:00 -
[609] - Quote
guys i'm really passionate about eve but i know nothing about fittings or pvp or anything
types furiously |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3574
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:42:00 -
[610] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:But, if that is *worse* in your opinion, I don't want to know what you would see as *equal* or even *better*. It's not that I think the Cerberus is worse... it's just that I don't care. What was it many of you said when missiles got nerfed last year? HTFU... The irony hasn't escaped me. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
390
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:43:00 -
[611] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote: links... are broken as all hell.
Fixed your post.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2868
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:47:00 -
[612] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:No! Competitive missiles are bad, mmkay? Here's the reality: For PvP you're going to run T2 launchers, 3x T2 BCU's, a DC and Faction ammunition. You're not going to run flares, rigors or catalyst rigs - it'll be field extenders or trimarks. Maybe a pair of +3 implants. So what are the "real" numbers? GÇó T2 rapid light missile launchers/Faction ammo ... 534 dps-burst (344 eps-actual) GÇó T2 heavy missile launchers/Faction ammo ... 453 dps GÇó T2 heavy assault missile launchers/Faction ammo ... 612 dps Where on Earth some of you are getting 1200+ dps for a PvP fit is beyond me, because no one in their right mind is going to take a $1-billion plus ship out for sh*ts and giggles. PvE is another matter entirely, but it always is.
People very much do bling out pirate faction ships for PVP. Look up Cannibal Kane's killboard if you want to see this in action - he's often flying deadspace-fitted strategic cruisers in fights where he knows he will be outnumbered. Hell, I've known him to take a deadspace-fit T3 up against 15 hostiles and kill eight of them and escape in structure himself.
If it is not an engagement you would consider bringing a semi-blinged ship to, it's probably not an engagement you should be considering a pirate faction ship hull in. The Vindicator and the Kronos are not ships to bring to a blob fight, and neither are these new ships. Set the universe on fire - then sell the survivors ash. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:47:00 -
[613] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Uh, you realize the Ishtar is a thing, right? Someone posted a HML fit claiming 400 DPS at 80km is broken. Well, the Ishtar does 600 dps at that range with near perfect application too. And? A Paladin deals 800 DPS over 95 if I want to, that does not make it comparable.
This Ishtar is not even closely as fast or agile as the Orthrus nor can it tackle that far. It is in no way as dangerous because you can either catch it anf force it to a closerange fight or you can just escape it.
You can neither force nor escape an Orthrus. That is the point. Not the DPS nor the Range.
You guys keep and keep denying the fact that this thing has the speed and the agility of an INTERCEPTOR, the Tackle Range of a RECON and the Damage of a HAC.
Orthrus RLML Kite |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2130
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:50:00 -
[614] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Onictus wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:http://puu.sh/8Kvy8.png
Stealing this from sharpt..
That is pretty much my definition of ******* broken. With LG snakes, a billion in booster (not to mention the second toon) etc etc. Looks like the nerf T3 argument, blow two bil on ships boosters and implants .....for a cruiser.....and whine about it being broken. Balance by cost doesn't really work. It especially doesn't work when you aren't putting most of your isk at any real risk. These ships are dumb without links. With links they are broken as all hell. So you are saying that you can't accomplish something similar with HACs or T3s in the same price range, speically when you are willing to dump 2 billion into things that aren't the hull?
Uhm, actually yes? BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Royally
Simply Wild. Mordus Angels
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:51:00 -
[615] - Quote
To those people going all "oh no, goons have acces to the only LP store." Dont forget that, whilst the system is smack in the middle of goon space, the station itself, and the system in general, is heavily camped by an anti CFC group. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Mordus Angels
896
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:55:00 -
[616] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:[quote=Xequecal]
You guys keep and keep denying the fact that this thing has the speed and the agility of an INTERCEPTOR, the Tackle Range of a RECON and the Damage of a HAC. [/url]
4000m/s is interceptor speed eh?
|
Elusive Panda
The Sky People
10
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:57:00 -
[617] - Quote
Please, keep linking fits that includes HG Snakes, Perfect Links, drugs, full +5 implants and deadspace mods, because we all know how representative of the reality these are. I could, in no way, make a stabber looks insanely OP by using those.
ps: I believe you forgot to use a Pithium A-Type Invul field on there for good measure. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 02:58:00 -
[618] - Quote
Actually the Orthrus can overhteat to nearly 7k, and yes, that is in the range of Interceptors and Nanofrigs. It is at least faster than anything that has a chance of survinging a tackle attempt, which is all that counts. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2500
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:02:00 -
[619] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:Actually the Orthrus can overhteat to nearly 7k, and yes, that is in the range of Interceptors and Nanofrigs. It is at least faster than anything that has a chance of survinging a tackle attempt, which is all that counts.
I think you might be mentally handicapped or you're just unaware of how little damage this thing does to an interceptor....you know, the thing thats going to be tackling it. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3574
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:02:00 -
[620] - Quote
Royally wrote:To those people going all "oh no, goons have acces to the only LP store." Dont forget that, whilst the system is smack in the middle of goon space, the station itself, and the system in general, is heavily camped by an anti CFC group. Goons needed a bone after the huge hit they took banking on the Nestor being a hit. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:03:00 -
[621] - Quote
Elusive Panda wrote:Please, keep linking fits that includes HG Snakes, Perfect Links, drugs, full +5 implants and deadspace mods, because we all know how representative of the reality these are. I could, in no way, make a stabber looks insanely OP by using those. ps: I believe you forgot to use a Pithium A-Type Invul field on there for good measure. You can take away all the implants and then compare it to HACs or Factioncruisers without these implants too, the superiority stays the same.
The fit just shows how far it can go and is just the way many people will fly it. ISK is really not an issue for most older players. |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3574
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:03:00 -
[622] - Quote
Onictus wrote:4000m/s is interceptor speed eh? I've personally seen a Machariel break 4,000 m/sec - so how far are we really going to take this? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:10:00 -
[623] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Syzygium wrote:Actually the Orthrus can overhteat to nearly 7k, and yes, that is in the range of Interceptors and Nanofrigs. It is at least faster than anything that has a chance of survinging a tackle attempt, which is all that counts. I think you might be mentally handicapped or you're just unaware of how little damage this thing does to an interceptor....you know, the thing thats going to be tackling it. Do a damage graph.
The event will go as follows: Malediction (with HG Snake and Lokiboost!) eats around 100 DPS permanently while chasing the Orthrus and once it has set a scram and the own speed goes down to orbit in scramrange, it just goes *plopp* from the next wave of missiles.
That orthrus shoots LIGHT MISSILES. They hit ceptors on their approach and kill them once they reduce speed for any reason. And they must reduce speed if they want to scram, because they cannot orbit with 6k m/s in a 12km radius. It does not work.
Any ceptor trying to catch an orthrus dies horribly while trying. In less then 20 seconds I suppose. |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3574
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:17:00 -
[624] - Quote
This kind of bullsh*t discussion more or less derailed the Pirate Battleships thread, so either start using realistic numbers for what most average players will utilize - or you go on my block list. That is all. Back to our regularly scheduled programming... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
501
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:23:00 -
[625] - Quote
I feel like I should point out that the Cynabal still has a higher velocity, is lighter, and more agile than the Orthrus. This is using Kronos stats for the Cynabal. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:26:00 -
[626] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:This kind of bullsh*t discussion more or less derailed the Pirate Battleships thread, so either start using realistic numbers for what most average players will utilize - or you go on my block list. That is all. Back to our regularly scheduled programming... Yeah, ok, it's all bullsh*t.
Welcome to lowsec. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Mordus Angels
896
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:35:00 -
[627] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:This kind of bullsh*t discussion more or less derailed the Pirate Battleships thread, so either start using realistic numbers for what most average players will utilize - or you go on my block list. That is all. Back to our regularly scheduled programming... Yeah, ok, it's all bullsh*t.Welcome to lowsec.
Yes, all ten of you can worry about it. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:43:00 -
[628] - Quote
What you don't get ist that I basically argument for YOUR good.
I personally have no problem with completely overpowered blingbling ships, because I can afford them in packs, I can fit them with all the shiny stuff I want and using their overwhelming power against all those who can't.
I just believe that is a stupid idea to bring so much overpowered ships into the game, because the rich guys can use them and wreck havoc while the poor guys will just get obliterated.
But, if you are sooooo willing to get blown apart by a new pwnmobile, so be it. Just keep telling yourself it isnt that much better than the cheap stuff all others can bring and that everything will be fine. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Mordus Angels
896
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:46:00 -
[629] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:What you don't get ist that I basically argument for YOUR good.
I personally have no problem with completely overpowered blingbling ships, because I can afford them in packs, I can fit them with all the shiny stuff I want and using their overwhelming power against all those who can't.
I just believe that is a stupid idea to bring so much overpowered ships into the game, because the rich guys can use them and wreck havoc while the poor guys will just get obliterated.
But, if you are sooooo willing to get blown apart by a new pwnmobile, so be it. Just keep telling yourself it isnt that much better than the cheap stuff all others can bring and that everything will be fine.
What happened to price isn't a balancing factor.
If it wasn't we would all be flying around in machs all of the time. We aren't, in fact I sold my last one because I never flew it and got sick of hauling it around.
Same thing as the vaunted 100mn Tengu, last one I saw I tackled with an alt in a bomber....and left with the bomber.
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Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3574
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:49:00 -
[630] - Quote
Syzygium wrote:What you don't get ist that I basically argument for YOUR good. Great - feel free to stop anytime now... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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