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![Marlona Sky Marlona Sky](https://images.evetech.net/characters/681548744/portrait?size=64)
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5166
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 06:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
A war dec is something most have either experienced or heard about. This by no means is some complaint, but more of an open question to everyone. If you feel like answering with an alt or simply mailing me, please do so.
I would like to know more about the pros and cons of the current system. Trends and tactics used and any loop holes. Keep in mind I am not asking about exploits which should reported to CCP immediatly, but more of shaddy tactics to get around some things. An old example was to join and alliance and immediately leave to shed the war dec.
There of course is the more popular complaints about things like neutral remote repairs and gang links, but those are pretty common knowledge. I am more interested in not so common tactics that don't really follow the spirit of the war dec system. Areas that seem to do well and others that are lack luster.
Finally, I really want to hear from the greifers and new players who form corporations. By all means use an alt to post or even mail me if you like, but I really want to hear what exactly is happening on that front. Things you like and hate about it. The Paradox |
![Abrazzar Abrazzar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/431543462/portrait?size=64)
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
3351
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 06:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
They lack victory conditions and war wagers so that you actually have something to fight over. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
![Sibyyl Sibyyl](https://images.evetech.net/characters/94349012/portrait?size=64)
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
843
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 06:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
One thing I noticed is that immediately after joining a corporation, the corporation standings don't update in Local and Overview unless you log off. This might be a bug with my client only, maybe others can confirm. This means that joining a corp like EACS might put you in this limbo where you don't see your WTs coming. Take solace knowing that even after the sun sets, and your sky is filled with darkness, that the sun is still shining. -D. Entervention Psychotic Monk joins BNI |
![Karen Avioras Karen Avioras](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93885224/portrait?size=64)
Karen Avioras
Unsung Heroes The Volition Cult
601
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 07:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
It feels pretty pointless unless your aim is to camp a trade hub which is more boring than mining |
![Cannibal Kane Cannibal Kane](https://images.evetech.net/characters/388372959/portrait?size=64)
Cannibal Kane
Praetorian Cannibals
3848
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 08:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
I don't have a big issue with wardecs.
I don't camp Trade Hubs or Trade Lanes.
I don't think the WarDec mechanic are the issue though. If people don't feel their corp is important enough to fight for they will leave and go to the next corp. Corp stability and ability of the defending corp is the issue.
I also believe that joining corp should mean you receive additional bonus. Like a Booster in the HQ System and then less so in systems with offices. You might see a different attitude how people treat their corp and then hopefully play a more active role in defending it. Call it a moral skill if you will.
Make being in corp actually mean something.
Adding victory conditions almost sounds like a pointless exercise to be honest. Since the minute you force somebody to achieve a certain goal like kill X amount. How do you counter that? Forcefully disallow targets to dock or leave corp the minute a target enters system? That is a nasty slope. With negatives for both sides of the field.
Could not help but notice the responses of the wardec noobs above me.... sigh... "Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk |
![Riot Girl Riot Girl](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92330948/portrait?size=64)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3242
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 08:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
War decs should be replaced with a more meaningful mechanic. Oh god. |
![Solecist Project Solecist Project](https://images.evetech.net/characters/94509643/portrait?size=64)
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1032
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 08:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:War decs should be replaced with a more meaningful mechanic. CCP Tuxford trolled it once and I stjll believe it's the best idea and a massive ISK sink. It's also far more realistic, but sadly won't ever happen. It has it's flaws, but the basic idea is great.
When you come to New Eden, you're at war with everybody... ...and have to declare PEACE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4492860 Killmails for Wrecks!! Ganker tears, best tears!
Red blood, boiling hot! |
![Cannibal Kane Cannibal Kane](https://images.evetech.net/characters/388372959/portrait?size=64)
Cannibal Kane
Praetorian Cannibals
3849
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 08:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Riot Girl wrote:War decs should be replaced with a more meaningful mechanic. CCP Tuxford trolled it once and I stjll believe it's the best idea and a massive ISK sink. It's also far more realistic, but sadly won't ever happen. It has it's flaws, but the basic idea is great. When you come to New Eden, you're at war with everybody... ...and have to declare PEACE!
I remember that.
Would have been funny if it was so.
"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk |
![Ramona McCandless Ramona McCandless](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93276556/portrait?size=64)
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
4181
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 09:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
A wardec only seems to have one real functioning purpose;
To harden or Darwin-out the noobs and poor CEOs.
Now, let me explain, I am aware that some people probably might have fun with them and that engagements may occur that are a jolly time had by all but in my experience the only things that occur are the following;
* Bad CEOs tell their guys to "turtle" until its over i.e. Hide in station or dont log in to make the war ineffective in regards to kills
* New or poorly informed players continue to mine and mission either in ignorance or because they are misinformed, and get slaughtered. With luck, the first time they learn not to do that, but often this is not the case. When they get sick of being killed due to their own stubborness, they will "turtle" or quit
* Players who know how the dec works and know their way around a ship and the universe will have plenty of ways to continue working without the Dec being able to effect them. This includes but is not limited to Wormholing or going to Low Sec or Null sec.
In short, once the first two options are exhausted, then only the third remains.
If you are in a corp experiencing the first two, then there is something very wrong with your organisation and your doctrines for Wartime Operation.
If you are the third, then Wardecs have no purpose.
This is just my experience. Online game experience may vary widely. "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á ***FREE THE JITA 1*** |
![Murder-Face Murder-Face](https://images.evetech.net/characters/94612793/portrait?size=64)
Murder-Face
Evil Astronaut Guild
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 09:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Wardecs are an awesome part of the game and the mechanics are pretty fine as is. The big loopholes like neutral logi and all the complex decshield shenanigans have already been fixed.
I do think the price structure is somewhat flawed. First in the sense that the prices are high enough that they discourage casual wardecs and newbie wardeccers to some extent. The system should encourage as many wars as possible because more war = more fun. Also the price structure seems ass-backwards. If anything, it should be cheaper to dec large alliances. I would propose a flat 10 mil isk war fee if I were in charge.
I also think that there should either be greater incentives for belonging to player corps or disincentives for belonging to NPC corps. Individual players should always be able to opt out of wardecs, but doing so should require a bit greater sacrifice than it currently does. |
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![Velicitia Velicitia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/202602168/portrait?size=64)
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2206
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 09:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:
* Bad CEOs tell their guys to "turtle" until its over i.e. Hide in station or dont log in to make the war ineffective in regards to kills
* New or poorly informed players continue to mine and mission either in ignorance or because they are misinformed, and get slaughtered. With luck, the first time they learn not to do that, but often this is not the case. When they get sick of being killed due to their own stubborness, they will "turtle" or quit
* Players who know how the dec works and know their way around a ship and the universe will have plenty of ways to continue working without the Dec being able to effect them. This includes but is not limited to Wormholing or going to Low Sec or Null sec.
4. Players who know how it works pretend to be an easy mark, and then catch the aggressor as they're heading "home" from a mission that they thought they could run because you wouldn't go hunting for them. ![Twisted](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_twisted.png) One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
![Jaun Pacht-Feng Jaun Pacht-Feng](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93806138/portrait?size=64)
Jaun Pacht-Feng
FOX News 24
83
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 10:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
The Queen Bee, known as The Mittani likes the system as it is!
So, it will stay as it is!
The only thing that will change is forcing non CFC members to undock and stay undocked until the wardec is over. "Go Goon or Go Home"
Perfect description of the biggest problem with Eve.-á |
![ElSuerte Diego ElSuerte Diego](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92210991/portrait?size=64)
ElSuerte Diego
Elysian. Heiian Conglomerate
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 10:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
1) Wardecs from griefer corps are one of the big turn offs for new players. You're new and you just found some buddies in a small corp. Sooner or later, some griefer corp decs your corp, and everyone from your corp logs off and plays WoW until the dec expires. Meanwhile the newbie is left alone in EvE and discouraged. The first two corps I joined in EvE as a new player fell apart because of this dynamic. No idea how or if this should be fixed. Maybe a make a junior corp type that is immune to wardecs, but is limited in size and can't anchor stations, pocos, etc.
2) The cost of wardecs is out of whack. Bigger corps shouldn't cost more to dec then smaller ones
3) There's been an problem with people stalking war targets as neutrals, then jumping into corp literally minutes or seconds before they engage the war target so they can get a legit kill. There should be a 24 hour warmup period before people can fight in the war after joining corp. Additionally, there is an exploit problem with this as sometimes your status doesn't doesn't appear correctly to the war target after you join corp. CCP has refunded some freighter kills because of this. |
![Gully Alex Foyle Gully Alex Foyle](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93655983/portrait?size=64)
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
257
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 10:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm in a Faction Warfare alliance.
We occasionally use wardecs to kill corps in our own Militia that ask for it. Otherwise we'd take an annoying standings hit with our own faction.
In this specific case, the current mechanic works well imo.
The wardec cost makes sense too, otherwise corps could join FW for the LPs and then just wardec everybody in their own Militia so they can freely shoot anyone, which kind of defies the point of being in a Militia. |
![Velicitia Velicitia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/202602168/portrait?size=64)
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2207
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 10:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
ElSuerte Diego wrote:1) Wardecs from griefer corps are one of the big turn offs for new players. You're new and you just found some buddies in a small corp. Sooner or later, some griefer corp decs your corp, and everyone from your corp logs off and plays WoW until the dec expires. Meanwhile the newbie is left alone in EvE and discouraged. The first two corps I joined in EvE as a new player fell apart because of this dynamic. No idea how or if this should be fixed. Maybe a make a junior corp type that is immune to wardecs, but is limited in size and can't anchor stations, pocos, etc.
2) The cost of wardecs is out of whack. Bigger corps shouldn't cost more to dec then smaller ones
3) There's been an problem with people stalking war targets as neutrals, then jumping into corp literally minutes or seconds before they engage the war target so they can get a legit kill. There should be a 24 hour warmup period before people can fight in the war after joining corp. Additionally, there is an exploit problem with this as sometimes your status doesn't doesn't appear correctly to the war target after you join corp. CCP has refunded some freighter kills because of this.
1. If they're actually "griefing" then they're risking bans from CCP. If you're calling them "griefers" because you're unwilling to train basic combat skills in a game based around PVP, then that is your failing and not an indication of them "griefing".
CCP Games wrote: A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersGÇÖ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way.
[...]
This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.
link to full article
2. I agree here. It should be 2 million across the board, and 50m if you're deccing an alliance. (IIRC that's what it used to be before the vocal minority of carebears whined it was "the last thing" they needed from CCP to be "safe" in hisec)
3. This is a bit underhanded ... but so is most of EVE ![Blink](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_blink.png) One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
![Silvetica Dian Silvetica Dian](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93001485/portrait?size=64)
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
1016
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:I don't have a big issue with wardecs.
I don't camp Trade Hubs or Trade Lanes.
I don't think the WarDec mechanic are the issue though. If people don't feel their corp is important enough to fight for they will leave and go to the next corp. Corp stability and ability of the defending corp is the issue.
I also believe that joining corp should mean you receive additional bonus. Like a Booster in the HQ System and then less so in systems with offices. You might see a different attitude how people treat their corp and then hopefully play a more active role in defending it. Call it a moral skill if you will.
Make being in corp actually mean something.
Adding victory conditions almost sounds like a pointless exercise to be honest. Since the minute you force somebody to achieve a certain goal like kill X amount. How do you counter that? Forcefully disallow targets to dock or leave corp the minute a target enters system? That is a nasty slope. With negatives for both sides of the field.
Could not help but notice the responses of the wardec noobs above me.... sigh... And the pointless response below me.
I agree with this. I would say though that i think corps should have access to some sort of anchorable structure or structures that give constellation wide boosts. To combat , mission rewards, mining, manufacturing, trading etc. Different structures could boost different things. Then either provide diminishing returns (ie the more corps have that structure in that area the weaker they are or have a cap on the max allowed. Now make them really expensive so people have something to defend and corps can mark out territory where they operate.
Then make them attackable under wardecs but only via another structure. If the attackers kill these structures they get a percentage of the license fee the defenders paid to anchor. If the defenders kill the attackers structure they get a percentage of the license fee the attackers paid to anchor.
No one has to use these. Wardeccers can freely ignore them. Defenders can let them die. But it would provide an incentive for the defenders to fight as well as providing well organised high sec PVE corps a method of rewarding their membership via the boosts they give and encoarage specialisation. The value of the defensable asset would also make hireing defending mercs viable.
I think a system where strong corps with a strong regional base and members living near each other having a reason to fight back and also to stop others from getting these localised boosts will encoarage conflict, provide rationale for conflict, and allow a better evolution between good and bad corp leaderships. High sec diplomacy and more player interaction and an obvious differential to allow players to tell between well run corps and fail corps i vital to the future of high sec and eve and provide a genuine stepping stone to low and null mechanics/ combat/ regional control and diplomacy. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
![Ramona McCandless Ramona McCandless](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93276556/portrait?size=64)
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
4186
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jaun Pacht-Feng wrote: undock and stay undocked until the wardec is over.
Uh.... thats the best thing to do during a war if you want to avoid trouble, btw "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á ***FREE THE JITA 1*** |
![Schmata Bastanold Schmata Bastanold](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91248770/portrait?size=64)
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1821
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
"Problem" with war decs is that people on receiving end are free to NOT participate in it. They can stay docked, they can not log in, they can drop corp and there is no way for you to do anything about it. Is that bad? Probably no because denial of engagements is more annoying than getting repeatedly falconed :) So if you are after fights you just lost your money.
But if your goal was to disrupt their logistics/mining or pve - well, you got what you paid for. And to be honest in current state war decs are more useful as means of economic pressure than actual combat stimuli.
At least this is how I see it but I never really paid too much attention to this side of Eve. Being flashy and in lowsec makes wars kind of obsolete unless ransom or nullification of station/gate sentries is required. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
![Solecist Project Solecist Project](https://images.evetech.net/characters/94509643/portrait?size=64)
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1036
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:I think a system where strong corps with a strong regional base and members living near each other having a reason to fight back and also to stop others from getting these localised boosts will encoarage conflict, provide rationale for conflict, and allow a better evolution between good and bad corp leaderships. No, it won't.
It will lead to the strongest forces controlling a majority of systems.
You think RvB would not take the opportunity all over the place in The Forge, just because they can? Why wouldn't they?
This doesn't drive conflict, it drives people away from systems and doesn't affect those who ignore all this completely.
Also ... this isn't Features and Ideas.
You're in the wrong forum and your idea is bad anyway.
Highsec corps are 70% crap. If not even more. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4492860 Killmails for Wrecks!! Ganker tears, best tears!
Red blood, boiling hot! |
![olga evil olga evil](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1222608555/portrait?size=64)
olga evil
Derp Inc JINN.
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jaun Pacht-Feng wrote:The Queen Bee, known as The Mittani likes the system as it is!
So, it will stay as it is!
The only thing that will change is forcing non CFC members to undock and stay undocked until the wardec is over.
Totally agree with this post.
The cost of war deccing null entities is set way too high. If, as these nullseccers say, Hi sec is easy mode, why is it so expensive to dec them giving them almost impunity to travel in hi sec?
Drop the price to dec large alliances / corps please |
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![Ramona McCandless Ramona McCandless](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93276556/portrait?size=64)
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
4187
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
ElSuerte Diego wrote:1) Wardecs from griefer corps are one of the big turn offs for new players. You're new and you just found some buddies in a small corp. Sooner or later, some griefer corp decs your corp, and everyone from your corp logs off and plays WoW until the dec expires. Meanwhile the newbie is left alone in EvE and discouraged. The first two corps I joined in EvE as a new player fell apart because of this dynamic. No idea how or if this should be fixed. Maybe a make a junior corp type that is immune to wardecs, but is limited in size and can't anchor stations, pocos, etc.
2) The cost of wardecs is out of whack. Bigger corps shouldn't cost more to dec then smaller ones
3) There's been an problem with people stalking war targets as neutrals, then jumping into corp literally minutes or seconds before they engage the war target so they can get a legit kill. There should be a 24 hour warmup period before people can fight in the war after joining corp. Additionally, there is an exploit problem with this as sometimes your status doesn't doesn't appear correctly to the war target after you join corp. CCP has refunded some freighter kills because of this.
1) Your CEOs sucked ass. Either kick the dead weight or find a corp that trains it newbies in what to do during a war properly. Also, hiring people with active WoW accounts is asking for trouble imho.
2) Cost is irrelevant. Seriously.
3) Sorry dont see the problem. They still go flashy when they join. As for the exploit, sounds like its petitionable by your comment and so its reversable. But yeah, if its a mechanical fault, it should be fixed "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á ***FREE THE JITA 1*** |
![Valkin Mordirc Valkin Mordirc](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93744527/portrait?size=64)
Valkin Mordirc
Abysmal Gentlemen
16
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Theres a couple ways a wardec will work out,
1. Defending corp will turtle and never undock during the wardec, this is bad for both parties as the defender is incapable of undocking and playing the game they are paying to play. The Aggressor is stuck with an entire corp that refuses to fight making the wardec itself an isk sink.
2. Aggressor camps major trade lanes like, Nairja, or camps trade hubs, Jita, Amarr, Rens so forth and wardecs a large amount of corps. This is cost on the Aggressor but general leads to a lot of kills. The Defending corp must merely avoid the system or trade hub, sometimes meaning going through lowsec. This is the stand-by as of right now with most Wardeccing corps.
3. Defending corp will fleet up, or trying to fight back, sometimes they get a kill, most of time they get stomped horribly. Mainly because the Defending isn't given the option to choose who they get dec by, and the Aggressor tends to find targets they can beat down.
For the most part though, the only real way to fund a Wardeccing corp is through neutral means, PI. Missioning, Trade. Sometimes a WarTarget will have a faction fitted battleship that will be blessed by the loot fairy but thats to far and between be a stable means of, well, being stable.
You can also have the defending corp pay a surrender fee, which depending on the CEO of the Defender may or may not happen. If he's a proud B***** he won't pay, and would rather let the wardec burn itself out. These CEO tend to be ones who try to force they're corpmates to stay docked. Or they pay the fee, which doesn't happen very often enough to be profitable.
Then you can have Merc contracts. Defending corp pays you to act as an ally, these tend to be the go to means of making Wardec corps Isk profitable. But getting into the market as an Merc can be difficult and the larger Merc's may take notice and bury you.
The pros a wardec can offer for the aggressor
A. Easy kills depending on who you dec, if you find a good corp you can billions of damage, but just like the faction battleships you can find sometimes, you tend to find these far apart.
B. Trolling the carebears of new eden, general griefing as a whole tends to be huge part of the wardec. But can lead to some laughs if you run into a rage-aholic screaming over local about his dual tanked Rattlesnake being mercced. Most of the time it's a weary Defending corp member asking to be let go, either because he's too stubborn to find away around the wardec, or because he's dumb and will not listen to other corpmate/ceo.
C. And this is an odd one, the ability to make friends/corpmates, no really, sometimes an Aggressor corp will osmosis, members from the aggressor corp into their own, generally because they see a well rounded corp working together thats making **** happen. *Most* people in EVE just want a community to play a game with. They don't care if it's PVP or PVE, they just want someone to talk to and work with to accomplish something. That tends to be best part about EVE, or any MMORPG, working as a team.
The Cons for the aggressor is as such,
A. The Defending corp may bring in a larger, more powerful corp to defend them. Normally Break-a-wish, Failed, Forsaken, Sov, and so on.
B. Defending corp can drop corp and make a new one, the Aggressor is now short 50mil, this can be repeated multiple times with no detrimental effects on the defending corp. Like what Kane said above, most Corps don't have anything worth fighting for so why bother fighting?
C. Aggressor misjudged the Defending corp and now has a very competent very aggressive war on their hands, though this leads to a very fun and action packed war.
The Defending corp doesn't really have any pros for a Wardec, but there ways for them to avoid it or do things that or make it withstandable,
A. Move to an island region. Being far away and surround by lowsec tends to make Aggressors think twice about going after you. Also Regions like Solitude then have a better market for items. Cheaper for the most part. But some items will be way overpriced as well.
B. They can always drop corp, and for a new one with the same name. Easy for new corps to do.
C. Hire a Merc corp for help
The cons facing the Defenders of course are a lot but here are some of the ones I've noticed the most
A. Even at the start of the Dec before the corp even see's a Wartarget. They will hemorrhage members.
B. Hiring a Merc corp is hella expensive, even upwards and past a billion ISK.
C. Mercs tend not to actually 'defend' the defending corp, it's more of a through us half billion isk, and we will shoot at the dude if we see him. You will not be able to convince a Merc corp to baby sit you while you're mining laser strips veldspar. That would be very boring. The two corps I've personally seen actually go after Aggressor's in wars they allied into has been Forsaken Asylum, and Sovereign Infinity.
D. Corpmates make bad choice, by getting killed a lot getting the aggressors full attention. Even one member can bring an entire aggressing corp down around your ears. And it can be very hard to get rid of them once that happens. Psychotic Monk for CSM9 |
![Riot Girl Riot Girl](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92330948/portrait?size=64)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3245
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:"Problem" with war decs is that people on receiving end are free to NOT participate in it. That's a large part of the problem. I don't think war decs should force players to participate, but I think participation should be more rewarding and war mechanics should offer a more fulfilling and fitting experience. I also think players need more control of how wars occur and how they play out. Wars shouldn't be governed by an NPC entity, they should be an adaptable and strategic element of gameplay.
Oh god. |
![Ramona McCandless Ramona McCandless](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93276556/portrait?size=64)
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
4187
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
NM misread Sorry "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á ***FREE THE JITA 1*** |
![Audrey UntzUntz Audrey UntzUntz](https://images.evetech.net/characters/94609206/portrait?size=64)
Audrey UntzUntz
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
Highsec wars should not be about griefing. Griefing is in fact against the TOS and as such mechanics should not in themselves ever promote such actions. Yet nearly every high-sec war today is about griefing. This has to change or the game will never grow the way it should.
Highsec wars should be about battling for resources/access to resources. They should be about tearing down eachother's infrastructure. It should be a tool used for rivalries.
About 6 months ago my corp had setup a POS in C2 WH. We were happily grinding the ISK away when we noticed some of the POCO were owned by an alliance not present in the WH. We attempted to tear down the POCO but they responded by blobbing our fleet and destroying us. The next day they declared war on our corporation. They did so to make sure we could not continuously supply our WH through high-sec. In doing so they were able to tear down all our infrastructure in the WH as anytime we tried to reship, they were camped and waiting for us on the high-sec side. This is an amazing use of the wardec system. However this unfortunately is rarely the case of how it is used.
So what is my point from all of this? Two main issues IMO: - Non-hostile players looking to form social groups with other non-hostile players should not have high-sec turned into low-sec because someone else payed a measly 50mil a week. How many hundreds of players have quit the game over this? - At the same time, if you pay 50mil a week your enemies should not be able to completely invalidate that and fly away scot-free after dropping corp. In the above example we could have all dropped corp and they wouldn't have been able to attack us in high-sec. Not cool.
So, how can they address both problems? Not sure. I think it's important in recognizing the problem though. I don't think CCP thinks carebear corps being wardecced constantly is a problem, but it really is when it comes to player retention. |
![Canthan Rogue Canthan Rogue](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92760375/portrait?size=64)
Canthan Rogue
Perkone Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
Non-mutual war decs should prevent you from getting concorded when attacking war targets, but you should lose sec status, go suspect and take gate guns like pirates in low sec. |
![Kaarous Aldurald Kaarous Aldurald](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91819847/portrait?size=64)
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6025
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
ITT: people complaining about having to defend themselves, ever, in highsec. Having to defend yourself, ever, apparently is griefing. ![Roll](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_roll.png)
As to the OP, since it's you I assume there is an agenda behind this, but I'll bite the hook anyway.
The main problem with wardecs is the lack of reasoning for participation for either party. In essence, it translates into a lack of incentive for highsec corps to exist in the first place.
The vast majority of them are just glorified chat channels, and a way to dodge NPC corp taxes. The only thing those corporations actually have worth defending is their name. Combined with the existence of dec dodging, wardecs aren't about war, they're just dojo challenges. Knock them down and take their sign. Which is why people view it as "griefing" in the first place, because they don't see any "reason" for them to be attacked. (nevermind that no one ever needs a reason to do anything in a sandbox game)
Assets in space being not just incentivized, but mandated are the answer. Something to fight for, something to take away. Rubicon is a step in the right direction in that regard, by moving towards an incentive on player infrastructure instead of mindless NPC controlled ones. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
![Audrey UntzUntz Audrey UntzUntz](https://images.evetech.net/characters/94609206/portrait?size=64)
Audrey UntzUntz
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:ElSuerte Diego wrote:1) Wardecs from griefer corps are one of the big turn offs for new players. You're new and you just found some buddies in a small corp. Sooner or later, some griefer corp decs your corp, and everyone from your corp logs off and plays WoW until the dec expires. Meanwhile the newbie is left alone in EvE and discouraged. The first two corps I joined in EvE as a new player fell apart because of this dynamic. No idea how or if this should be fixed. Maybe a make a junior corp type that is immune to wardecs, but is limited in size and can't anchor stations, pocos, etc.
1) Your CEOs sucked ass. Either kick the dead weight or find a corp that trains it newbies in what to do during a war properly. Also, hiring people with active WoW accounts is asking for trouble imho. Whether you are technically correct or not is irrelevant IMO. You are being highly idealistic as are most PVP-focused players in this game.
You are hoping for a scenario where a group of carebears doing solo carebearing are going to form together to field a defense fleet against their enemies. It's never going to happen besides in the rarest of occasions.
So yes, we could keep wardecs as they are and tell hundreds of players to HTFU, but that certainly will not help grow the game.
|
![Kaarous Aldurald Kaarous Aldurald](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91819847/portrait?size=64)
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6025
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 11:59:00 -
[29] - Quote
Audrey UntzUntz wrote: You are hoping for a scenario where a group of carebears doing solo carebearing are going to form together to field a defense fleet against their enemies. It's never going to happen, besides in the rarest of occasions.
Then you don't belong in a player corp. Simple as that.
Player corps are for people who are willing to defend themselves. I suggest you and your friends form a chat channel instead. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
![Schmata Bastanold Schmata Bastanold](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91248770/portrait?size=64)
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1821
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 12:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:"Problem" with war decs is that people on receiving end are free to NOT participate in it. That's a large part of the problem. I don't think war decs should force players to participate, but I think participation should be more rewarding and war mechanics should offer a more fulfilling and fitting experience. I also think players need more control of how wars occur and how they play out. Wars shouldn't be governed by an NPC entity, they should be an adaptable and strategic element of gameplay.
It is hard to not agree with this. War should be like a session of your favorite strategy game: even when you getting crushed it is still enjoyable experience. But honestly I doubt there is a system you could implement and not being either too restrictive or blatantly exploitable, ie: worse than what it is now.
I don't really think the real issue here is with war mechanics but more it is just an effect of risk aversion that is so common among players. You could put buckets of moon goo right next to a gate on lowsec side and there would still be people who wouldn't jump there.
You can lead a horse to the water but you can't make it drink.
So how can you expect those people to undock their green/purple/blue ravens and have 99% of chances of losing it (1% for a chance of being able to dock before bumped and ganked :)). And no, they won't undock in anything else because they only fly "the best" ships in universe.
People who want to fight will undock and they will stand their ground but those people will probably sooner than later find themselves in low/null or wh space and whole war concept won't apply much to them anymore. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
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