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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Nemain
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Posted - 2006.07.08 18:13:00 -
[1171]
Originally by: DarkPanther Does any 1 else have an issue with the retribution only having 1 mid / cant ccp remove the 5th high slot and make it into a mid slot plz ?
The ret is an odd one to sort. True the 1 mid slot is a pain, no missile hard point like all the other Assaults is a bit of a downside, and fitting medium beams is no end of trouble. The only problem is How would you fix it without causing other problems? Personally I'd like the Ret to be alot more like the zealot. Keep the slots as they are now, but increase the speed and lower the mass and sig radius. Idealy somthing more akin to the minmattar ships (or just far better speed and mass). This would mean that the ret would be more like a tough somewhat slower inty, but would not be able to tackle. It would be pure damage dealer, that has to catch it's targets, as opposed to web and scrambling them. Fix the grid on the medium beams and it would be sorted, it would have to rely on it's extended range and speed to kill it's prey. Well thats just an idea, I would much rather have somthing thats unique than somthing like all the others.
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Commander Thrawn
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Posted - 2006.07.10 20:02:00 -
[1172]
this things is dropping too far back. Any word or a resolution yet?
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Stephar
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Posted - 2006.07.10 20:45:00 -
[1173]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn this things is dropping too far back. Any word or a resolution yet?
I doubt there will be a resolution until people begin abandoning Amarr vessels in favor of other racial ships. I guess this has already happened to a minor extent, but I still see a lot of Amarr being flown.
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.07.10 20:48:00 -
[1174]
Originally by: Stephar
Originally by: Commander Thrawn this things is dropping too far back. Any word or a resolution yet?
I doubt there will be a resolution until people begin abandoning Amarr vessels in favor of other racial ships. I guess this has already happened to a minor extent, but I still see a lot of Amarr being flown.
I think we underestimate the devs. If I remember correctly they finally commented on the Battlecruisers thread with something along the lines of 'Of course we've read it'.
It'd be hard of them not to have noticed this thread :)
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.07.10 20:56:00 -
[1175]
Noticing and acknowledging are 2 different things. Not that we can "force" them to do that latter thing.
Either way, CCP has it's summer holiday now, so we won't see anything happening the next 4 week anyway.
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.07.10 23:14:00 -
[1176]
Originally by: Stamm I think we underestimate the devs. If I remember correctly they finally commented on the Battlecruisers thread with something along the lines of 'Of course we've read it'.
It'd be hard of them not to have noticed this thread :)
'SOME' feedback from the dev side would be nice to have tho. Of course the problem is, everyone will cry for dev comments to their threads. Maybe the devs could set up a weekly post commenting on the most pressing issues/threads. (Or at least saying that they've read them.)
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
gu o
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Posted - 2006.07.10 23:15:00 -
[1177]
Originally by: Stephar
Originally by: Commander Thrawn this things is dropping too far back. Any word or a resolution yet?
I doubt there will be a resolution until people begin abandoning Amarr vessels in favor of other racial ships. I guess this has already happened to a minor extent, but I still see a lot of Amarr being flown.
I have abbandond all hope of effectivly using amarr t1 ships. guess ill make my 2nd account char my main with 1/8 the sp of this one. I have mad eleaps and bounds in damage output by training for gallient bs... the domi puts amarr bs's to shame. It is so simple to use, and the versitility (sp) is amazing. I will not pretend to be "great all knowing" and put for the changes that need to be made. but i have been pretty upset after training up and trying to use amarr bs's; then learning that they are terrible. DOMI ftw now... were is my super sweet drone/gun amarr boat besides the arbi which is my fav ship by far...
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MacQueen
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Posted - 2006.07.11 10:17:00 -
[1178]
Originally by: gu o
Originally by: Stephar
Originally by: Commander Thrawn this things is dropping too far back. Any word or a resolution yet?
I doubt there will be a resolution until people begin abandoning Amarr vessels in favor of other racial ships. I guess this has already happened to a minor extent, but I still see a lot of Amarr being flown.
I have abbandond all hope of effectivly using amarr t1 ships. guess ill make my 2nd account char my main with 1/8 the sp of this one. I have mad eleaps and bounds in damage output by training for gallient bs... the domi puts amarr bs's to shame. It is so simple to use, and the versitility (sp) is amazing. I will not pretend to be "great all knowing" and put for the changes that need to be made. but i have been pretty upset after training up and trying to use amarr bs's; then learning that they are terrible. DOMI ftw now... were is my super sweet drone/gun amarr boat besides the arbi which is my fav ship by far...
Well, this thing have been going for too long, lots of people losing their hope and also faith, even me, feeling like being a beggar rather than being in a rightful debate.
Still, people still will flying Amarr ships for a long while because many, many have train too well for them, like me, 38 mils SP char all for Amarr. So, I'll digging out the best of whatever we have, awesome Absolution !!! Let's enjoy it, the left over power of Amarr, Command ships level 5 in 10 days !! Yeha !!!
It just a game, right ?? Have fun ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------ |
Kardim
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Posted - 2006.07.11 12:17:00 -
[1179]
if you spend a year or two training up a race for it to work well and it doesnt then no its not just a game, its a job.
you only take the skills to lvl 5 cause the hope that well maybe that extra lil bit will let me win a fight.... then find out you wont, bit depressing
anyways ive about abandoned amarr for any pvp and most npc, training caldari now and when i get to raven i can be a god like everyone else (npc atleast)
sigh
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Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.07.11 21:33:00 -
[1180]
Originally by: Kardim if you spend a year or two training up a race for it to work well and it doesnt then no its not just a game, its a job.
you only take the skills to lvl 5 cause the hope that well maybe that extra lil bit will let me win a fight.... then find out you wont, bit depressing
anyways ive about abandoned amarr for any pvp and most npc, training caldari now and when i get to raven i can be a god like everyone else (npc atleast)
sigh
Yup, its things like that that makes kittens cry :(
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gu o
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Posted - 2006.07.11 22:05:00 -
[1181]
Originally by: Kardim if you spend a year or two training up a race for it to work well and it doesnt then no its not just a game, its a job.
you only take the skills to lvl 5 cause the hope that well maybe that extra lil bit will let me win a fight.... then find out you wont, bit depressing
anyways ive about abandoned amarr for any pvp and most npc, training caldari now and when i get to raven i can be a god like everyone else (npc atleast)
sigh
Sad when I play a buds account for a little bit. 1mil sp char in a raven shooting torps. every torp was 450+damage... I saw that and nearly screamed cmon how can this be fair? 450+ every shot granted this was pve against bs rats. But h3ll my geddon cannot do that in any circumstance. not to mention I can only kill sansha rats. time to train for raven... no wonder EVERYONE uses ravens now. its not even remotely funny. *abbadon's amarr as they have no hope with the great bonuses they have been given recently.
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Aemilus Brutus
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Posted - 2006.07.11 22:10:00 -
[1182]
I've got this idea to sort of see how everyone faired after the stacking changes and after the introduction of armor and shield compensation skills. I get this feeling that Amarr may have gotten hurt a little worse because everyone else got pulled to a more tank and damage combo (to try to raise fight times), where as Amarr got left with basically ships for damage, and ships for tanking that were no longer good enough in their roles to be balanced, oh and being stuck with an odd em/thermal ratio. (Then's there is npc resist bias).
Ok, someone needs to help me do the math. I think this might be an informative test.
Let's look at how much the old standard pvp armor setups mitigated damage of t1 cruisers and battleships with common setups like what you would find on the forums, not pulled out of your ... please. I think DPS is a fairer measure than alpha strike damage which is only really important in fleet engagements.
Picking which base resists to modify is going to be annoying, but it needs to be an armor tanked ship of the same class, or just use an average of armor tanked resists or just roughly equal resists, lets say 60% with em higher to reflect it's higher base resist, and the weapons need to be either short or long range, with the correct ammo/crystals used for that range. Make sure drones are included in dps calculations.
So it would look like:
Geddon: dps before mitigation dps after
Mega: dps before after
Apoc dps before after
and so on. (using standard pvp setups, not setups where you know your enemy before you fight)
Then let's see how Amarr and everyone else fare after the introduction of damage mod stacking penalties and new damage mitigation skills and gear. Do the test with the new mitigation. Which ship's dps takes the biggest damage percentage hit or gain? I seem to remeber no one calling for an Amarr nerf outside of the gank geddon, so if the Amarr take a bigger hit than others we have a problem.
It is an odd test and it might not be worth doing, but it's what my medicated brian came up with.
It doesn't account for a large number of other balance factors, so I think it might just be easier to try some of the slighter changes on the test server and see what happens.
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Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.07.12 11:24:00 -
[1183]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 12/07/2006 11:23:59 Does anyone know how the community felt about RMR btw? Personaly I thought the stacking penalty was rubbish and thus making rmr pointless.
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Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.07.12 12:08:00 -
[1184]
No real clue about how the stacking changes changed the raw dps output of the various ships, but from the tanking it's fairly straightforward:
Pre RMR: 3 active harderners: kin, exp, therm.
Post RMR: 2 EAN + damage control. With the stacking penality the 3rd EAN2 gives only 14.3% resistance (with maxxed skills, 13.7% with them on lvl 4), the best named has 14% and is not effected by the stacking penalities AND gives 58% hull resistance, too, so it's better than a 3rd nano. This combo gives with lvl 5 in the compensation skills 49.5% in all resistances, 48.3% with lvl 4. And 58% hull resists.
So, exp, kin and therm damage got vs armor a 12-15% dps boost while EM damage does only 51-52% of its previous dps. Note that it is still better than a 3 harderner setup even when you know that you will not face EM damage if you include the added hull resists into the total ship HP.
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Mahavy Seth
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Posted - 2006.07.12 13:08:00 -
[1185]
Why this topic continue? Why?
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2006.07.13 03:49:00 -
[1186]
Edited by: Nyxus on 13/07/2006 03:59:52 Continued......
4) Some Amarr ship fittings are BROKEN. PROBLEM Why does the Coercer and the Thrasher have the same fittings, when lasers are MUCH harder to fit and the Coercer has an extra high turret slot? Why does the Crusader and Claw have the same fittings when the Crusader has to fit lasers and has an extra turret to fit as well? Why doesn't the maller have enough grid to fit it's utility slot with ANYTHING? Lasers take more fitting than other weapons. Amarr have more turrets than most other racial ships. GIVING AMARR THE SAME GRID/CPU AS OTHER RACIAL SHIP IS DUMBÖ. Remember kids, don't be dumbÖ - they're all gonna laugh at you! In addition, ships should be able to fill all thier slots with about the same difficulty. Even utility slots. Finally, please consider that low slot mods take up a LOT more CPU than midslot mods take up PG. A LOT. Gallente and Amarr could both use a slight boost to CPU on the ships that primarily armor tank.
5) Some Amarr weapons are BROKEN. PROBLEM Amarr have 2 long range frigate guns. One is so weak as to be useless. The other, Medium Beam Lasers (small lasers fyi) don't fit on anything less than a cruiser. Other weapons like Heavy Beams/Pulses are a little too hard to fit, even for ships with extra low slots. Some weapons are non existant when gameplay could really use them. A beam laser between Dual Light Beams and Medium Beams for example. A large equivalent to gatling pulse lasers as well.
SOLUTION -Make Medium Beam lasers easier to fit and look up the Beam laser tree to make sure they are all appropriate. Introduce another Small and Medium beam laser that goes in between Dual Lights/Medium Beams. Introduce a Large Gatling Pulse laser. Amarr are the turret specialist race, we need those turrets.
6) Amarr EW weapons are in need of some love. PROBLEM -Tracking disruptors only affect tracking and optimal. Out of 4 races, 1 race uses missiles and 1 race depends on falloff rather than optimal. One mid slot on a race severely lacking mid slots, only effecting 50% of the ships you might encounter stinks.
SOLUTION Let Tracking disruptors affect tracking, optimal, and falloff. I need a reason to fit more disruptors on my curse/pilgrim/arbi than I do jammers atm.
7) Some Amarr slot layouts need adjusting. PROBLEM 1 midslot for pvp just makes a ship decidedly sub par. Yes, there are things you can do with it, but only having 1 mid cripples the ship for pvp. The Coercer and Retri need two mid slots.
SOLUTION -The Coercer can lose a low for a mid, and the Retri can lose a high slot for a mid. If the Claw and the Crusader can have the same slot layout (4/2/4) and be balanced then the Retri and Coercer can be more similar in slot layout to thier racial counterparts as well.
7) Khanid ships SUCK. Khanid ships are pointless, half-baked versions of the gunboats. Amarr already have less flexibility in ships than other races, we NEED Khanid ships to do/be more than a lesser version of the gunboat/tank we already have.
SOLUTION -Sarmaul. His MKII design is exactly what Amarr need for diversity in ships for gameplay and also interest to boost player retention. Missile spewing cool black looking ships are what Amarr desperately need atm. If an itinerant matari slave makes a suggestion to boost Amarr because they stink so much, you know that it HAS to be bad.
I know I am leaving some things out, but I am running out of post and I think I have hit the main points. Hopefully Tux and his band of Merry Men can make these adjustments or at least give them a good look.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Antwon Stylez
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Posted - 2006.07.13 04:17:00 -
[1187]
aye to all of those \o/
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Lisento Slaven
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Posted - 2006.07.13 05:12:00 -
[1188]
I have no problem with any of the ^^ mentioned except numbe 6 about tracking disruptors.
Tracking disruptors indirectly effect falloff. Max range for a turret is optimal + 2x falloff. By decreasing their optimal range (by over 50% with t2 tracking disruptors) you've really killed a LOT of that range. Not to mention if you use two disruptors on a 100% turret user.
Tracking disruptors are only useless against pure missile and pure drone users. Then again they are a highly specialized and highly affective EWAR module and I see no problem with them currently. They ruin any turret users day. ---
Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE.
Put in space whales!
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BlackHorizon
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Posted - 2006.07.13 05:17:00 -
[1189]
Edited by: BlackHorizon on 13/07/2006 05:18:13 Tracking disruptors are fine, except their range is a bit too short. Even with high skills, their effective range reaches a maximum around 100km. I suggest their optimal range and falloff should be boosted by 50% so that they are effective up to 150km or so with high skills.
Excellent summary Nyxus.
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MacQueen
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Posted - 2006.07.13 07:34:00 -
[1190]
Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 13/07/2006 05:18:13 Tracking disruptors are fine, except their range is a bit too short. Even with high skills, their effective range reaches a maximum around 100km. I suggest their optimal range and falloff should be boosted by 50% so that they are effective up to 150km or so with high skills.
Excellent summary Nyxus.
First, weldone and thank you, Nyxus.
Yup, optimal and fall off of Tracking disruptor should be a bit higher.
Lower down optimal affect of Tracking disruptor, but add on the fall off effect as well. ie. Tech I tracking disruptor will decrease tracking to 67.5%, optimal and fall off down to 75%, ect... ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------ |
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.07.13 07:45:00 -
[1191]
Originally by: Nyxus The 25% resist bonus on the maller/proph suffers from the stacking penalty reducing it's overall effectiveness.
Since when?
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Aramendel
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Posted - 2006.07.13 08:29:00 -
[1192]
Probably this old misconception that the way resistance mods work is the "stacking penality". Meaning if you use 2 50% mods the 2nd is "only 25%". But that isn't the stacking penality, folks. The first harderner is reducing the damage you get by half (from 100 to 50) and the 2nd harderner does the same thing (from 50 to 25). The stacking penality is that the 2nd harderner only work with 87% effeciency, meaning it only acts like a 43.5% instead a 50% harderner, meaning it would reduce this 50 damage to 28.25 instead 25.
The resistance bonus of amarr ships is not effected by this. An ship with a 25% resistance bonus will always, under any circumstances, recieve 25% less damage from any source than a ship with no resistance bonus and the same modules & skills.
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.07.13 08:33:00 -
[1193]
I call BULL**** on your explanation of tracking disruptors. It's only partially true for half of our turret based weapons systems (ACs).
Any man, woman or dog that relies on falloff for artillery needs to be shot on sight for such a travesty. We hit bad enough as it is with their tracking without you fiddling around with falloff. And the tracking disruptors will fubar the tracking of ACs to the point where they're doing exactly what they're supposed to do: FUBAR the tracking of your opponent's guns.
Seriously... just stop.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nyxus
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Posted - 2006.07.13 15:04:00 -
[1194]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Nyxus The 25% resist bonus on the maller/proph suffers from the stacking penalty reducing it's overall effectiveness.
Since when?
Hmm, I thought it was on the EAN II stacking line. In any case, the fact of the matter is that tanking is significantly weaker than damage. Tanking ships like the Maller/proph/Moa need a boost to thier base hp to make them more viable. I like the idea of giving them more armor/shield rather than a tanking amount bonus because it keeps them from being able to indefinitely tank. More armor hp just means that they have more survivability than they have now. As of today, a Maller doesn't have significant more survivability than a Rax or Ruppie, with less than half the dps.
Originally by: Nifel I call BULL**** on your explanation of tracking disruptors. It's only partially true for half of our turret based weapons systems (ACs).
As folks have pointed out, TD's don't work well beyond 100km. Therefore they are primarily a close range ECM. That would be AC's and missiles for Matari. They don't effect missiles at all. And I think the VAST majority of AC fighting occurs in falloff. If you look at a vagbond, a TD doesn't reduce thier range much at all. Reducing it's falloff by 50% would force them in close, just like gallente and amarr ships.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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itsatrappp
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Posted - 2006.07.13 15:52:00 -
[1195]
just ask yourself this question
"when was the last time i saw as many amarr ships in PVP as i have gal/caldari?"
Non-drone amarr ships blow for PVP. IMO buff them so at least I have more varity of thigns to shoot at
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Sku1ly
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Posted - 2006.07.13 18:09:00 -
[1196]
I agree with everything Nyxus said, will say or ever has done.
STK-S Website |
Nifel
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Posted - 2006.07.14 07:10:00 -
[1197]
Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: Nifel I call BULL**** on your explanation of tracking disruptors. It's only partially true for half of our turret based weapons systems (ACs).
As folks have pointed out, TD's don't work well beyond 100km. Therefore they are primarily a close range ECM. That would be AC's and missiles for Matari. They don't effect missiles at all. And I think the VAST majority of AC fighting occurs in falloff. If you look at a vagbond, a TD doesn't reduce thier range much at all. Reducing it's falloff by 50% would force them in close, just like gallente and amarr ships.
Nyxus
It's the tracking. Do people need to spell it out for you . Also... you have Target Painters and Remote Sensor Dampeners with a ridiciously small optimal. How about crying wolf for them first?
And yes ofc the vast majority of AC-fighting occurs in falloff. We already do 50% of our optimal damage when we fight at 1x falloff, now you wan't to cut it more just to satisfy a need that isn't there?
And stop justifying changes (range on TDs) with stuff that's broken (T2 long range ammo).
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Forsch
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Posted - 2006.07.14 08:14:00 -
[1198]
Imo Tracking Disruptors is the least we have to worry about. Let's focus on the real issues instead.
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Sonorra Baki
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:22:00 -
[1199]
Could someone with some more time than me on their hands, copy the best posts (best suggestions, best supported facts etc) out from this topic, and into a new "summary topic" ?
The new topic should be consisting of a bulleted list, with links to the original posts.
Ive seen it done before, with the blaster thread i think, and it was applauded by a dev for summarizing all the good points. |
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:36:00 -
[1200]
Nyxus' summary right on this page (and the one before) is quite a good one.
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
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