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Aberash
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.12 22:53:00 -
[1771]
as i see this topic has got really out of hand (page 60 )
just face it Amarr needs a little bit of a boost.. but doing it without making them overpowering. Sig dimensions must be no more than 400W x 120H, please resize - Cathath |
Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.13 00:03:00 -
[1772]
This really belongs to another thread but as I feel this thread has become a second home to me I decided to post this here aswell. After being challenged to do run the numbers on the EANMIIs vs 3x actives tanks effect on lasers.
Here is what I found out.
Raw DPS comparison, no resist and no repairer. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 762 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 743 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 656 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 569 DPS (13.3% less than EMP)
Megathron is ofcourse on top with the Armageddon close behind. Notice I used 2 types of ammo on the Tempest, EMP with 45% em damage and Fusion with 80% explosive but less raw damage.
DPS with tank. Tank = 2 EANMII and DC + one LAR II Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 269 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 187 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 211 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 259 DPS
Here we see a different picture, the Armageddon is trailing far behind the others and the Tempest with Fusion loaded is actually only 3,8% away from the blasterthrons effective DPS. The EMP tempest now has lower DPS than the fusion one, due to it's EM damage.
Here we see what's left of that raw DPS after tanking. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 35,3% of original DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 25,1% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 32.2% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 45.5 %of original DPS 22.7% higher than EMP
Now here is these calculations with 3x active t2 hardeners replacing the EANMII + DC tank. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 243 DPS (31.9% of original DPS) Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 264 DPS (35.5% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 256 DPS (39% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 233 DPS (40.9% of original DPS, 9% less than emp)
Now here the numbers are alot different, lasers are now what they used to be - great. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Devoras2
Amarr Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.13 14:59:00 -
[1773]
Page 3
And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
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Rockpounder
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Posted - 2006.08.13 15:07:00 -
[1774]
Originally by: Dixon This really belongs to another thread but as I feel this thread has become a second home to me I decided to post this here aswell. After being challenged to do run the numbers on the EANMIIs vs 3x actives tanks effect on lasers.
Here is what I found out.
Raw DPS comparison, no resist and no repairer. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 762 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 743 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 656 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 569 DPS (13.3% less than EMP)
Megathron is ofcourse on top with the Armageddon close behind. Notice I used 2 types of ammo on the Tempest, EMP with 45% em damage and Fusion with 80% explosive but less raw damage.
DPS with tank. Tank = 2 EANMII and DC + one LAR II Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 269 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 187 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 211 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 259 DPS
Here we see a different picture, the Armageddon is trailing far behind the others and the Tempest with Fusion loaded is actually only 3,8% away from the blasterthrons effective DPS. The EMP tempest now has lower DPS than the fusion one, due to it's EM damage.
Here we see what's left of that raw DPS after tanking. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 35,3% of original DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 25,1% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 32.2% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 45.5 %of original DPS 22.7% higher than EMP
Now here is these calculations with 3x active t2 hardeners replacing the EANMII + DC tank. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 243 DPS (31.9% of original DPS) Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 264 DPS (35.5% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 256 DPS (39% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 233 DPS (40.9% of original DPS, 9% less than emp)
Now here the numbers are alot different, lasers are now what they used to be - great.
This shows exactly what we are talking about
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.13 15:11:00 -
[1775]
Originally by: Rockpounder
This shows exactly what we are talking about
It gets worse... this is my sheild tanking result:
Raw DPS before tanking Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) ) --- 762DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) ) --- 743 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) ) --- 656 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Phased Plasma] (3 Dm) ) --- 596 DPS (20% lower than the armageddon)
VS sheild tank w/2xt2 invulns, 1x photon scatter t2 + xlarge sheild booster - (Em:72,43%/Expl:79,3%/Kin:68,95%/Therm:58,6%) Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) ) --- 270 DPS (35.4% of original DPS remaining) Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) ) --- 248 DPS (32.5% of original DPS remaining) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) ) --- 169 DPS (25.7% of original DPS remaining) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Phased Plasma] (3 Dm) ) --- 235 DPS (39.4% of original DPS remaining and 5.3% lower than the armageddon)
Note that I used phased plasma on my second Tempest as it is the most damaging projectile ammo on sheild tanks. And also note that again, despite EMP being the highest damage projectile ammo, it's damage types makes it inferior to the more specialized types (like fusion in my post above). Again this shows how damage types can put raw DPS to shame. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.13 17:02:00 -
[1776]
Originally by: Krulla Edited by: Krulla on 12/08/2006 21:35:38 My whole damn point was that comparing player resistances to NPC resistances is *edit* retarded, and has no bearing whatsoever on game balance - NPCs have equal resistances accross the board for each bounty class.
NPC's have equal resists for each bounty class?
WTS you: clue
Hint: lasers suck for ratting angels
Cmon ppl need to pickup the pace, we've been on page 60 for a while, we have to get to 100 remember? focus! :p
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Yodohime Kibagami
Amarr Mordu's Elite
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Posted - 2006.08.13 17:22:00 -
[1777]
Has anyone done the comparisons for the sustainability of the different top tier dps battleships?
Lacking 4'th mid for the precious cap booster 800 unlike with megathron probably hurts geddon almost as much as damage types.
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Cuisinart
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.08.13 17:31:00 -
[1778]
Seems almost pointless. Kinda obvious the devs just don't give a damn or they would have interjected with a few words.
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.13 17:33:00 -
[1779]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 13/08/2006 17:33:56
Originally by: Cuisinart Seems almost pointless. Kinda obvious the devs just don't give a damn or they would have interjected with a few words.
Don't give up! persistence ftw!
edit: and voila! one page closer
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Ling Xiao
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Posted - 2006.08.13 17:34:00 -
[1780]
Edited by: Ling Xiao on 13/08/2006 17:34:55 I will get a face before they bother to reply here.
oh, and I'm 5 months old...
Yeah... good luck
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Pepperami
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.13 19:55:00 -
[1781]
Originally by: Lord WarATron With that said, all is forgiven if the Abaddon is a Missile or Drone boat!
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Juntz
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Posted - 2006.08.13 21:32:00 -
[1782]
I was at GenCon and was told if this gets to 2500 posts we'd get the raven switched over to be amarrian and we'd loose the apoc to balance everything out.
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OMGROFLBBQ
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Posted - 2006.08.14 00:17:00 -
[1783]
lol
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CB Cyrix
GeoTech
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Posted - 2006.08.14 11:54:00 -
[1784]
still no word from devs yet?
-Taking his YARR Pills Since 2003-
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GOFTI
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Posted - 2006.08.14 13:11:00 -
[1785]
Wow this is still going on and yet no reply
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.14 13:19:00 -
[1786]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 13:19:38 Its beyond me that you guys still think you are going to get a reply to this thread just because it has many pages... sigh.
Most of this thread is general discussion and crap posts tbh.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ridjeck Thome
Suicide Valley Alliance Inc Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.08.14 13:51:00 -
[1787]
Edited by: Ridjeck Thome on 14/08/2006 13:54:11 Edited by: Ridjeck Thome on 14/08/2006 13:52:42
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 13:19:38 Its beyond me that you guys still think you are going to get a reply to this thread just because it has many pages... sigh.
Most of this thread is general discussion and crap posts tbh.
whilst some of what you say is undoubtedly true, its a vast step from that to say this post is not worthy of at least some kind of feedback. There are some very good ideas in this thread which, as paying curstomers, we are asking CCP to consider.
Just because you dont think its worth persevering with, doesnt mean to say you are right, nor does it invalidate the efforts of others to change something they care about.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.14 13:55:00 -
[1788]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 13:19:38 Its beyond me that you guys still think you are going to get a reply to this thread just because it has many pages... sigh.
Most of this thread is general discussion and crap posts tbh.
true, but it's almost become a habit to post here regularly. And I don't actually think we're getting any reply - unless it's a "I'm locking this thread and you guys are all ***" response.
The fact is that between the crap posts and general discussions there are some good arguements and that's why we keep this post going. To remind those who care (and even those who don't) that this is a problem and it's not going away unless something is done. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
CB Cyrix
GeoTech
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Posted - 2006.08.14 15:56:00 -
[1789]
Well atleast the people in this posted havent started forum ransoming yet, where they required a dev reply or else all of them will make the thread so long it will fill the server..... And they wont stop there, they will post and crash wall street and all that...
... today the forums, tomorrow the WORLD!
-Taking his YARR Pills Since 2003-
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Jormunrek
Amarr Mining Bytes Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.14 16:13:00 -
[1790]
Anyone else noticing the + shield and armor bonus on the vengeance is not showing up?
Doin an info on myself while out in space and it is still showing the same as doing info off of market. Well minus my additional resists from mods.
Still boggled that there hasn't been some sort of offical response to this thread yet. =/
Jorm
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.14 16:18:00 -
[1791]
Originally by: Jormunrek Anyone else noticing the + shield and armor bonus on the vengeance is not showing up?
The resist bonus is built-in to the base stats. It's a confusing way of doing things but it's done consistently for any bonus based on a skill that's required at level V.
Originally by: Jormunrek Still boggled that there hasn't been some sort of offical response to this thread yet. =/
Give them time. I wouldn't expect to see any response in this thread at all but I'd hope the problem will be addressed eventually, one way or another. I'm sure they've read all the good arguments posted here and elsewhere already.
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Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2006.08.14 17:10:00 -
[1792]
I haven't responded in a long time, I guess I was letting others keep this going. I have an increasing hope that the Devs do have something to say about Amarr, but have yet to say something. Whether they just dont know or do know and will be posting a blog soon about it, I'm not sure.
I do agree that damage controls & EAN2's have made em damage suck, but I'm one that ever wants things nerfed, I'm more of a booster or workaround guy. CCP will not nerf defense. So, I think we need our cap to lasers bonus removed, replaced with bonuses to compensate for our problems. Reduce cap to lasers by 50%. Rebalance the crystal damage across the board, giving more thermal to certain crystals so we have an option like minmitar/caldari do when they need to change damage types. We also need a boost to our ew resistance. Because of the lack of midslots we can neither jam or fit eccms on to help ourselves, therefore the only way to help us here is to increase our ew resistance.
All that should do it, not sure CCP is prepared to make a fix that big, but its needed.
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xenorx
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.14 17:23:00 -
[1793]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata I haven't responded in a long time, I guess I was letting others keep this going. I have an increasing hope that the Devs do have something to say about Amarr, but have yet to say something. Whether they just dont know or do know and will be posting a blog soon about it, I'm not sure.
I do agree that damage controls & EAN2's have made em damage suck, but I'm one that ever wants things nerfed, I'm more of a booster or workaround guy. CCP will not nerf defense. So, I think we need our cap to lasers bonus removed, replaced with bonuses to compensate for our problems. Reduce cap to lasers by 50%. Rebalance the crystal damage across the board, giving more thermal to certain crystals so we have an option like minmitar/caldari do when they need to change damage types. We also need a boost to our ew resistance. Because of the lack of midslots we can neither jam or fit eccms on to help ourselves, therefore the only way to help us here is to increase our ew resistance.
All that should do it, not sure CCP is prepared to make a fix that big, but its needed.
Pretty much nailed my feelings exactly there Cosmo.
I have no doubt that the developers have read this thread. although, I doubt we will see a response to it. At least not directly. CCP is not blind to the situation and will have to address it eventually.
No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already. |
gu o
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Posted - 2006.08.14 17:59:00 -
[1794]
I have been following this thread just about everyday, and have seen every post. I have been looking at everything that has been said and tried to compare with my own personal experience. I am a terrible writer so I will say "sorry" in advance for the lack of communication that I will be attempting to unveil to you.
First off let me explain that I have only been play EvE since Dec of 05' (last Christmas) I have 6.3 million sp, the vast majority in drones and learning.
I along with many of my corp mates were extremely gun-hoe in our attempts to get into bs's and go to 0.0 sec to rat and hunt. we were sucessful and got to a place called h-gki6 (if you reading this are the ones who ganked many of us....congrats I can admitt I was terribly noob at the time) My buddies mostly had ravens, I had my geddon, and another had a megathron.
I was amazed...blown away in fact with the ability that the ravens had. they could tear through a few belts in the time it took me to get throug one. The thron was vastly supperior to my geddon as well. I was at this point getting a bit upset in my Amarrian choice of toons/ships. But then I remember an older player telling me tales of how uber amarr was in PVP. so I fought my corpmates in mock battles...
Needless to say I got my arse owned so hard everytime. My corpmates with raven would take me out no match. they would just fly away and at 50km my pulse were all but worthless (they still were able to drain my capacitor pretty well so they had a purpose) SO I refit with beams...sucess I could hit at 50km fairly well (granted the damage output was so incredably poor I was almost in tears) but I could actually hit them...
But then I went up against my corp mate with the megathron...I knew he had blasters and would try to close the distance. So i did all I could think of. Pulse and an afterburner... well we started at 40km (he gave me a chance kinda) and i immediatly started pluggin away...radio all the way. I was flying away from him as fast as i could, but what amazed me was how fast he closed the gap. I was firing and he was chasing me down like a lame bird. i had to switch to mutli-freq in a surprizingly short durration of time. I was hitting for the moment... I had his shield down and was starting in on his armour. To my avail he forgot to inject his cap boosters and his mwd died out...i had a min of shooting b4 he was back on the chase...I was pluggin away as fast as i could. i had to to about 2/3 armour. and not getting anylower. Worst of all I was destroying my capacitor i was on the bottom 1/3. then all of a sudden his cap was alive and he was ontop of me like a fat kid on a cupcake...his blasters tore through my shields in 2 volleys. I was praying that my armour tank would be all I had tried to make it out to be... but it was not. I could not sustain the tank/shooting worth a damn. he was chewing through my armour so fast I was actually scared hed just pop me on accident b4 he could turn off his guns.
These mock battles were great im my learning of pvp... amarr blows ... The thron had eaten my 100mil isk investment like G-bush can tell lies. I was devistated, I had spent all my isk in making this thing. It was all for not, a thron would *****me so hard... and a raven could ace me at any range...it was sickening. From the discription on the main page amarr sounded like me, "Harding hittin lasers and heavy tank". Well Amarr is not this by any streach of the imagination.
CCP will you please make change the main screen when your making your character. Amarr discription should read: "A once great and vastly devistating race, the Amarr have been Nerfed into oblivion. There once powerful lasers have been transformed into nothing more than "self-nosing devices" If you are looking to waste time/money but have great light shows (only rivaled by the all-powerful caldari) this race is for you. Just remember the Amarrian motto: Light bulb shooters FTW!
Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here)like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever... |
Lord KoO
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Posted - 2006.08.14 18:50:00 -
[1795]
Hehe, how true, how true. It's lamb how agent runners in the poc are now putting blasters on to do sufficient damage on level 4 missions.
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korrey
Corinth Associates
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Posted - 2006.08.14 19:12:00 -
[1796]
I think the Devs will say something soon, if they werent at least looking at this they'd have locked it 50 pages ago...
If you cant beat something, arrange to have it beaten. -Corinth Associates |
Lickity Split
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Posted - 2006.08.14 19:28:00 -
[1797]
There are Devs?
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VCBee 909
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Posted - 2006.08.14 19:52:00 -
[1798]
My main is just done with Advanced Learning and soon Cruiser IV for Amarr. Looking at the training times for a long range pew pew setup and other factors that like mid slots which I really like, it looks like my Amarr that loves beams just might be going to Caldari/Gallente BS. I might do the Amarr Cruiser V for the Pilgrim but otherwise there is very little in Amarr ship arsenal that isn't aimed for tanking and lasting possibly couple seconds longer in combat is all that useful unless you're there as the target in the target practise.
Amarr should seriously get some more damage types or double the thermal base. And more ships with +25% optimal range per level since being able to hit from range is far more advantageous than some 10% damage boost if you can't ever get to use it before you're dead.
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trialpic
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Posted - 2006.08.14 20:04:00 -
[1799]
i am sure this has been said a thoushand times but here is my 2 cents:
i love me apoc... best PvE tank around. but when it somes o PvP it blows. going up agains a corp mates raven i cant even break his shield which is BS considering he cant tank lvl 4s as efficiant as me! my gunnery skills are very good (most lvl 4s) and i get raped by his raven when he goes all out. but when it comes to tanking 7-14 npcs in Guristas Extraviganza i am the man to have with you.
is this fair deffinetly not sure i can tank is dmg for 7-12 min when i dont fire at him but when i turn my tachs on to do some dmg back i get pwned.
Devs please help out my race! love the ships love the weapons (as far as no ammo needed, look and sounds) nothing more intimidating when you hear 5 tachs go off for 3 secounds.
i mean lets face it it would be much nicer if we could pwn someone with our disco show!!!
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VCBee 909
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Posted - 2006.08.14 20:14:00 -
[1800]
Originally by: DrEiak every amarr ship save for the arbitrator, augor, and that mining frig, have 10% reduced cap usage. ITS KILLING US, we need a second bonus that DOES SOMETHING besides make our primary weapons usable.
Totally agree. What kind of bonus is it if it's there just to make the weapons usable? And that will be quickly dealt with some NOS.
The purpose of that bonus is just to make it harder for other races to fit lasers, but why would they even want to? Reducing beam/pulse cap usage wouldn't really make other races want to fit these weapons. Switch the cap bonus to range bonus or bigger drone bays. |
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