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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.09.19 21:36:00 -
[2281]
Edited by: madaluap on 19/09/2006 21:37:58 Well if you serieusly feel ammar is crap, train into other races a couple levels so you can use em properly and than put rest of sp back into ammar. You wont regret it.
Took CCP more than 2 years to give blasterthron and drones some love. Shamefully ECM ****** the game up completely, making dominix teh uber. Once nos is nerfed and ecm aswell, ammar will do better. Because their have low sensorstrenght will hurt em less, tankability and capbonus will pwn because injecting cap becomes less popular..(its part of cap than can be nossed).
Couple T1 ships from ammar need boosting, especially the omen and fitting specs of some weapons fixed. But in the end ammar isnt really that bad. Npcing with a geddon is still very good because you get lots of damage, range and no ammo usage.
Range means you dont need to move close to the target that you want to kill.
imo 80% em and 20% therm on radio and multispec a 60% em and 40% therm will do fine for ammar. Kin, therm and explosive used to be heavy tanked while em remained untanked. This is over now, you need to adapt to it. Also because npcing hasnt changed i laugh @ damage/tanking arguments concerning npcing. _________________________________________________
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Lady Loom
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.09.19 21:55:00 -
[2282]
IAWTT, and although I have nothing really new to say I think this thread deserves more than just plain bumpage...
My main gripe with Amarr is their versatility, or lack thereof. In my trial days I flew Caldari and Gallente, and going from one ship to the next was exciting as they were quite different - railgun platforms, missile spammers, close combat ships, drone boats, you name it. My main became a Khanid mainly because of Gunnery V, and because I was looking forward to pew pew lazer guns and the prettiest ships in game (IMO, at least back then). Early on it was great, until I picked up a Coercer (yeah I know, destroyers "suck" and all) and ran out of cap everytime I tried to keep 8 lasers running. I ran out of cap so often I made getting out of that heap top priority.
Only, things got worse - where with frigates there was still some variety between the different ships, it appeared to me as I was losing options the larger the ship. Pew pew and armor. Or in the case of most ships, pew pew OR armor (at least with my mediocre fitting skills). Sometimes little room for a few drones, maybe a launcher hardpoint. While the other races I looked at got mining cruiser, EW cruiser, missile cruiser and railgun cruiser, or drone cruiser, cargo cruiser and blaster cruiser. Well there is the Arby but it's wasted on my current skills ;)
And nothing's changing with the battlecruiser or battleships. While the Ferox might have its flaws, it offers options. I can fit it with mostly launchers or mostly turrets. My Prophecy only allows mostly turrets, the two battleships - turrets. And armor. Or armor. Plain boring, and it really saddened me to learn that both new Amarr ships will again be lightshow platforms. I was so hoping for the Abbadon to become more like the Arby when I saw the concept art - atypical for Amarr, a change from the boring laser+armor formula which, as anyone who bothered to read up on the whole topic should know by now, is underpowered to begin with. But no, they chose to release more ships which aren't much different from each other and old ships besides slightly different grids and damage-to-tank ratios. Seriously, WTF is up with that? Do they design Amarr ships last after they have spent all their creativity on the other three races?
There's another issue with the lack of options for Amarr players - if our main characteristic is "broken", we can't even hop in a differently designed ship as there are hardly any, and those that are (Khanid designs) mostly suck even more. If armor + blasters was underpowered a Gallente pilot could usually still use other ships of the same class. If missiles were underpowered a Caldari pilot picks the rail or EW focused ships (I guess that's why people want the Rokh so much, because missiles aren't so hot in PvP). We're stuck with crappy lasers and underwhelming armor tanks unless people want to go back to cruisers or all the way up to HACs. Or go cross-faction, but that really can't be the solution to Amarr issues...
As killing stuff with only EM+thermal got tiresome, I fitted my punisher with autocannons. As my hopes for the new ships were crushed, I stopped training Amarr altogether, my Prophecy is currently demoted to mining duty and I really don't see how any of this is gonna change soon. I'm on my way to Raven and eventually Rokh now even though that means becoming yet another Caldari pilot :(
Sorry for the essay... TLDR, I guess - anyone with ADD just take this as a bump and leave it at this ;)
[power corrupts, absolute power is kind of neat] |
Lady Loom
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.09.19 22:01:00 -
[2283]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 19/09/2006 21:37:58 Well if you serieusly feel ammar is crap, train into other races a couple levels so you can use em properly and than put rest of sp back into ammar. You wont regret it.
Took CCP more than 2 years to give blasterthron and drones some love. Shamefully ECM ****** the game up completely, making dominix teh uber. Once nos is nerfed and ecm aswell, ammar will do better. Because their have low sensorstrenght will hurt em less, tankability and capbonus will pwn because injecting cap becomes less popular..(its part of cap than can be nossed).
Couple T1 ships from ammar need boosting, especially the omen and fitting specs of some weapons fixed. But in the end ammar isnt really that bad. Npcing with a geddon is still very good because you get lots of damage, range and no ammo usage.
Range means you dont need to move close to the target that you want to kill.
imo 80% em and 20% therm on radio and multispec a 60% em and 40% therm will do fine for ammar. Kin, therm and explosive used to be heavy tanked while em remained untanked. This is over now, you need to adapt to it. Also because npcing hasnt changed i laugh @ damage/tanking arguments concerning npcing.
you still don't get it, and just because it took CCP ages to fix issues with "your" race doesn't mean it's justified taking so damn long *again* while giving no feedback to IMO legitimate questions/issues whatsoever
[power corrupts, absolute power is kind of neat] |
mallina
Caldari Turbulent
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Posted - 2006.09.20 00:38:00 -
[2284]
i would be fine with amarr if they: - nerfed fitting requirements on the more powerful guns (med pulse+beam/heavy pulse+beam/mega pulse and tachs) to use as little as 10% and as much as 30% less powergrid - reduced the cap requirements of armor repairers when fitted on Amarr ships, especially Punisher/Maller/Prophecy/Apoc - nerfed NOS - nerfed ECM
fixed :) ----------- <3 Turbulance |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.09.20 01:47:00 -
[2285]
The Pirate in my Pants would stand up and salute if only Tuxy would give some indication that he thought Amarr were ok as is, or needs tweaking just for some feedback.
Still waiting to hear about my black Khanid armor tankers.
Teh Pirate in my Pants says "YARRRRR give Amarr some ♥!!"
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Low Blow
Amarr Black Eclipse Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.20 02:39:00 -
[2286]
Amarr is fine ? NO CCP answers your questions ? No, not yet because they are obviously still thinking about what to do about that. "only the dead have seen the end of the war" |
Altraz
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Posted - 2006.09.20 02:42:00 -
[2287]
It does seem that thereÆs an ongrowing 78 page thread on Amarr balance alone, but not a single reply from the DevÆs regarding this issue.
Looking at the current lag and node loading issues, I do understand the severity of other issues compared to this, but itÆll be nice to have the DevÆs give a word on if theyÆre looking to change this in particular or ignoring our rants altogether instead of getting a silent treatment and the typical ôWe have plans to do what we deem necessaryö reply.
Though weÆre just paying customers, we have feelings too, you know.
Cheers!
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LordChaos
Amarr Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.09.20 02:44:00 -
[2288]
nerfing NoS will screw up the best ship Amarr got :(
curse is like the only ship i have fun playing with now
its the only one that ECM dont screw much and most verstile
if NoS gets nerfed then ECM/Dampening be nerfed too
i got 5 mill in drones ........... wish i was gallante lol The Master Of Chaos
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Double TaP
The Establishment
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Posted - 2006.09.20 03:04:00 -
[2289]
holy god 78 pages
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Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.20 03:49:00 -
[2290]
Ok here is a good solution.
1) Make Amarr crystals have limited charges per crystal. A set amount of charges, none of this volatility nonsense. That way the "amarr dont use ammo" whine is removed.
2) Add more damage types for Amarr. EM and Thermal? Thats just retarded.
3) Less cap usage for Lasers. As it stands, lasers use so much cap that CCP is practically forced to implement this damn "10% reduction for cap usage" bonus. This bonus heavily weakens Amarr ships since other ships usually have a Damage and some other bonus. Cap reduction? Come on get real.
AMARR NEED LOVE! ===============================================
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LordChaos
Amarr Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.09.20 03:57:00 -
[2291]
Originally by: Scoundrelus Ok here is a good solution.
1) Make Amarr crystals have limited charges per crystal. A set amount of charges, none of this volatility nonsense. That way the "amarr dont use ammo" whine is removed.
2) Add more damage types for Amarr. EM and Thermal? Thats just retarded.
3) Less cap usage for Lasers. As it stands, lasers use so much cap that CCP is practically forced to implement this damn "10% reduction for cap usage" bonus. This bonus heavily weakens Amarr ships since other ships usually have a Damage and some other bonus. Cap reduction? Come on get real.
AMARR NEED LOVE!
Signed :) The Master Of Chaos
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Tyris Maelstrom
Minmatar 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.09.20 04:08:00 -
[2292]
Though i can understand the need for wanting Kinetic and Explosive dmg types added to Lasers, in a realistic point of view it's impossible. Lasers can't do those dmg types, they don't have the right properties to do so. Sucks I know, I have a Khanid, but that's how it is. You'd almost have to come up with a new weapon type.
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Tor Anasa
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Posted - 2006.09.20 04:36:00 -
[2293]
Originally by: Scoundrelus Ok here is a good solution.
1) Make Amarr crystals have limited charges per crystal. A set amount of charges, none of this volatility nonsense. That way the "amarr dont use ammo" whine is removed.
2) Add more damage types for Amarr. EM and Thermal? Thats just retarded.
3) Less cap usage for Lasers. As it stands, lasers use so much cap that CCP is practically forced to implement this damn "10% reduction for cap usage" bonus. This bonus heavily weakens Amarr ships since other ships usually have a Damage and some other bonus. Cap reduction? Come on get real.
AMARR NEED LOVE!
Uh understand that i don't fly amarr and that this is from an outsiders pospective, but; Isn't that just taking the amarr out of the amarr? Or, more specifically, the laser out of the lasers? by making the changes you suggest you make lasers behave in generally the same way as hybrid. As many people have stated, ad nauseum over the last 78 (!!!) pages, the problem is that amarr do crud-all damage to the normal armour tank, and that the most prevelant tank in the game is armour. As you suggest, one way to fix this would be to change the damage types (Or add another) that lasers do. The reason that i believe this will not happen is that, story-line wise, how do lasers do hitting damage? (Maybe add explosive damage?) So, the only way left to fix it would be to make shield tanking more attractive.
The second point about lasers doing em and thermal damage being retarded originally made me think "Oh well, hybrids only do 2 damage types too, get over it" but then i thought about it. The problem is that EM and Thermal don't eat through armour, while the hybrids thermal/kinetic lets you eat through either type of tank in a reasonable amount of time. One slight change that may help would be to increase the thermal damage that lasers do, at expense of the em damage.
Having not flown amarr beyond frigates, i can't really comment on your third point aside from saying that High cap usage is a laser "trait" and that lasers should use more cap then other weapons. However i agree that when ccp need to put cap use reduction bonuses on multiple ships to make them workable this does need to be looked at.
Amarr do need fixing (And this is from a caldari player so i'm not really biased...) but i don't think that the suggested changes would be the best way to go about doing this.
Tor
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Shugo Kazuma
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Posted - 2006.09.20 04:47:00 -
[2294]
Originally by: Tyris Maelstrom Though i can understand the need for wanting Kinetic and Explosive dmg types added to Lasers, in a realistic point of view it's impossible. Lasers can't do those dmg types, they don't have the right properties to do so. Sucks I know, I have a Khanid, but that's how it is. You'd almost have to come up with a new weapon type.
Realism if rather fortunatly not a huge part of EVE. Realistically, lasers don't generate EM fields either, yet they do mostly EM damage.
Personally I don't think there's so much really wrong with the ships so much as the weapon's delivery system is slightly out of whack. Why should Amarr ships need a 10% reduction per level of amarr spaceship command to lasers to be able to get effective use out of them? That just sounds absurd. That would be like making all guns have half their current ROF and giving ships a "Guns fire 10% faster per level" bonus.
BTW, that khnaid MK2 thread sounds like an excellent idea. Spice up space a little, I didn't see many objections to it when I read it. And when you see an idea to boost a race made by someone who's not really interested in seeing said race boosted, and see no general anti-posts, it must be a good thing.
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Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2006.09.20 05:01:00 -
[2295]
Originally by: Tyris Maelstrom Though i can understand the need for wanting Kinetic and Explosive dmg types added to Lasers, in a realistic point of view it's impossible. Lasers can't do those dmg types, they don't have the right properties to do so. Sucks I know, I have a Khanid, but that's how it is. You'd almost have to come up with a new weapon type.
Photons have momentum and kinetic energy. Several named beams are called "particle streams." Particles have wave-like properties, and waves (light) have particle-like properties. I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch to say that lasers can do kinetic damage. Besides, all thermal energy is just kinetic energy, which means that all thermal damage is essentially kinetic damage.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.09.20 05:56:00 -
[2296]
EVE>>>>>>>>>Reality in most aspects TBH.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Akkreniel
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.09.20 06:07:00 -
[2297]
Christ, 78 pages and counting. Amarrian-spec players am cry.
I wonder how many pages this will be when I come back from my month break...
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Lord Seth
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.09.20 06:34:00 -
[2298]
Hmmm...
You guys are crazy! Amarr rocks!
Why, Just the other day me and 2 other Geddons(1+2=3) Fully damage fitted managed to kill 1 vindicator!
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.09.20 10:12:00 -
[2299]
Edited by: Aramendel on 20/09/2006 10:13:21
Originally by: madaluap ...capbonus will pwn because injecting cap becomes less popular..(its part of cap than can be nossed).
Depends what the nos-"nerf" will be. And even if it makes cap battery enegry un-nossable, people will still use cap injectors far more frequently. Because for anything above frigs cap batteries SUCK. Would you rather have (with max energy management) +700 unnossable cap (leaving you with 10-15% cap on BSs) or +800 cap every 15 sec?
Of cource, cap batteries have far lower fitting reqs than cap injectos, but you only have so many med slots. They would need to have about twice the capacity and 3 times the fitting requs to be a real alternative for cap boosters (if they are unnossable).
Quote: Range means you dont need to move close to the target that you want to kill.
Tecnically, yes, but even a blasterthron can do with null still quite impressive damage up to 20 km. To *really* use the range bonus you would need a (non-faction) 30 km disruptor. Or a tackler, of cource. But a blasterthron + tackler won't have any issues with getting close, for example. A tackler helps it as much as it helps a "med-range" ship.
Quote: imo 80% em and 20% therm on radio and multispec a 60% em and 40% therm will do fine for ammar.
So you want to NERF multifreq from 58/42 EM/therm to 60/40 EM/therm?
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.20 10:58:00 -
[2300]
Originally by: Stephar
Originally by: Tyris Maelstrom Though i can understand the need for wanting Kinetic and Explosive dmg types added to Lasers, in a realistic point of view it's impossible. Lasers can't do those dmg types, they don't have the right properties to do so. Sucks I know, I have a Khanid, but that's how it is. You'd almost have to come up with a new weapon type.
Photons have momentum and kinetic energy. Several named beams are called "particle streams." Particles have wave-like properties, and waves (light) have particle-like properties. I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch to say that lasers can do kinetic damage. Besides, all thermal energy is just kinetic energy, which means that all thermal damage is essentially kinetic damage.
No thats wrong - all that needs to happen is some programmer opens up the EVE database and add in a item with whatever flag dictates damagetype
However, I dont really think the answer is exp or kin damage on lasers - I think the answer is 10x more structure on all ships :) --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
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KillerLU
X1 Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.20 10:59:00 -
[2301]
I always read this thread, cause it's funny to see all this different opinions and how they dispute
Well I'll add my 2 ISK here to get flamed...
Geddon is fine as it is. The Apoc is the best tanker BS (beside slave gistii Raven and faction ship), but it totally lacks on the DPS side as it cannot use lasers while keeping the tank up, while other BSs can do both well. I would love if the Apoc gets a big drone bay to be able to fight back. With the new Abba it will also lose his role as a tachyon boat, so add 1 low slot + 1 med slow and removing 2 high slot would also look good imo. Abba (well not out yet, but we can dream, can we?) able to fit 8 tachyons, 3 Heatsink, Cap injector and lot's of passive tanking without any PDUs or Proc and having enough Cap to fire his guns a while....
Prophecy think it's not bad, haven't fly it often... but I always lost against a Brutix hehe (was a noob)
Maller could get some more PG and CPU. I would love to see a Maller with a whole stack of Heavy beams. Omen also need some more PG, to fit the gun easier. +10m3 to drones bay would get it a bit closer to the DPS of the Thorax. Other cruiser are fine.
Coercer could lose one low for a med.
For frigates, Puni is fine, Inqui is a bit hard to fit, but it's ok, Exec is fine, Cruci needs a survey bonus instead of the senseless Cap red. bonus, and Torm does his job.
For T2 ship: Retri is a great tanker/damage dealer and I prefer it unchanged. Crusader is ok. The Khanid ships aren't bad, when you use em for tackling, but in all the other aspect they suck or are behind other ships. Sarmauls suggestion is the best I've seen yet. For the other ships I cannot speak as I can't fly them.
medium Beams need to have lower fitting req. heavy beams coul also need that. For the EAMII issue, well I think it's ok. before RMR lasers were good against shield and armor. Now, to be honest, I think it's fairer than before. With the new BSs we'll see how the shield/armor tanker balance will be, which is a bit broken atm. Cap reduction bonus is fine, I just hope that we see some more ship without it like the Abba. Tou to boost controlled burst skill would be nice. To change ammo damage I say NO! (except maybe on T2 ammo) but to balance crystals a bit to do more therm damage as they do now would be good (Radio mainly).
OK NOW FLAME AT ME -------------- Recruiting: Check our Recruitement thread or our HP |
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.20 15:42:00 -
[2302]
Originally by: Tyris Maelstrom Though i can understand the need for wanting Kinetic and Explosive dmg types added to Lasers, in a realistic point of view it's impossible. Lasers can't do those dmg types, they don't have the right properties to do so. You'd almost have to come up with a new weapon type.
I'm pretty sure a "Laser" in Eve bears as much relation to the LASERs we know as a "1400 Artillery" bears to a 20th century howitzer. Hell, just because they call it a laser doesn't even mean it is an actual laser - current lasers don't fire beams of tachyons either! Maybe the name became a generic one for beam weapons whatever the principle, who knows?
Don't get hung up on contemporary/RL physics - balance is far more important!
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Phyrexia Tarzig
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Posted - 2006.09.20 17:44:00 -
[2303]
Edited by: Phyrexia Tarzig on 20/09/2006 17:46:57 Ehhh....lasers don't really do 'EM damage' either, in real terms, they're just a game mechanic here in EVE.
I do wonder whether the EM concept is even warranted.....we have 3 broad weapon types, hybrid laser and projectiles, which would cover the 3 other damage types, and 2 tank types....so 1 vs. shields primarily, 1 vs. armour primarily and 1 50/50?
Obviously the prevalence of armour tanks would mean that an actual 50/50 split would be silly, but my point is that EM damage gimps lasers....and so, what's the EM damage here for?
Edited because I can't spell >.< |
Azaries
Caldari Chosen Path Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.20 17:59:00 -
[2304]
Even if the damage types were just switched from primary EM to primary Thermal this would be a start.
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Xendie
Hunter Killers
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Posted - 2006.09.21 03:31:00 -
[2305]
Originally by: Azaries Even if the damage types were just switched from primary EM to primary Thermal this would be a start.
the em/thermal swap will help some but im afraid that it wont be enough to put amarr on par with the other races.
Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
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Alekzander
Caldari Scorn.
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Posted - 2006.09.21 04:09:00 -
[2306]
Edited by: Alekzander on 21/09/2006 04:10:59 Would this thread PLEASE JUST DIE. How can you Amarr generate this much garbage? Your putting the minmatar to shame for jeebus sakes. I should pod malkan for making this thread 4 months ago.
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.09.21 04:13:00 -
[2307]
Originally by: Alekzander Edited by: Alekzander on 21/09/2006 04:10:59 Would this thread PLEASE JUST DIE. How can you Amarr generate this much garbage? Your putting the minmatar to shame for jeebus sakes. I should pod malkan for making this thread 4 months ago.
And thank you for your insightful, well thought-out post backed up with facts to prove your point. You, sir, are an example to us all.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.21 09:26:00 -
[2308]
Originally by: Alekzander Edited by: Alekzander on 21/09/2006 04:10:59 Would this thread PLEASE JUST DIE. How can you Amarr generate this much garbage? Your putting the minmatar to shame for jeebus sakes. I should pod malkan for making this thread 4 months ago.
Then I challange you to pod him in a Amarr Turret ship, then you will see what this thread is all about! --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Critta
Black Omega Security E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.09.21 09:38:00 -
[2309]
Originally by: Scoundrelus Make Amarr crystals have limited charges per crystal. A set amount of charges, none of this volatility nonsense. That way the "amarr dont use ammo" whine is removed.
Amarr not using ammo is one of our greatest strengths (my alt is fully amarr spec so I know this well)
Originally by: Scoundrelus Add more damage types for Amarr. EM and Thermal? Thats just retarded.
Rails only do kintic and thermal, do you see rail users whining?
Lasers have rediculous DPS, this is normally enough that the EM damage against armour doesn't matter too much.
Also, there are plenty of amarr ships that can use either drones or missiles, this allows you to do other types of damage. Where is the problem?
Originally by: Scoundrelus Less cap usage for Lasers. As it stands, lasers use so much cap that CCP is practically forced to implement this damn "10% reduction for cap usage" bonus. This bonus heavily weakens Amarr ships since other ships usually have a Damage and some other bonus. Cap reduction? Come on get real.
Lasers have a naturally higher DPS than all the other guns, we don't need a damage bonus to stay on par, those ships that do get a laser damage or RoF bonus are just rediculous.
Originally by: Scoundrelus AMARR NEED LOVE!
I think you just need to love the Amarr a little more dude.
Look, it's been 78 pages. Does the lack of a dev reply not say that maybe they think Amarr are balanced?
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.21 09:54:00 -
[2310]
Yes shut up amarr are so fine, their Equipment costs only half as much if not less! I want to keep these superior prices. Sacrilege 80m isk Ishtar 220m isk!
This clearly shows us that the Sacrelige is superior because you get 3 Sacs for 1 Ishtar! And all three will be destroyed by that one Ishtar. Err wait thats not so nice anymore.
Boost Amarr!
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