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Malken
Posted - 2006.05.28 08:30:00 -
[1 ]
with the Mega now able to wtfpwn at close range and long range Minmatar use no cap on their guns and.... yeah need alittle more loving though. and the Domi is the wtfpwn iwin button at close range Caldari still got the wtfpwn recon jammer, Raven wtfpwning at long range and close range Amarr got the geddon that does good dmg with no tank on and the apoc that does more dmg with projectiles then megapulses can we get our explosive crystals soon? Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Bazman
Posted - 2006.05.28 08:34:00 -
[2 ]
Only if we get EM Hybrid ammo And i can't think of any ship other than the Geddon that is the Mid Range wtfkiller. They are awesome long range too, much better than the Megathron at long distances tbh. You do need a close range ship though, hopefully the new Amarr BS will have something funky that makes it good at close range. Cross your fingers! :P ----- Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks.
Gronsak
Posted - 2006.05.28 08:34:00 -
[3 ]
perhaps but first all t2 ammo that does more damage than the old t2 high dmg ammo needs to be removed t2 ammo should help your ship be more defensive not offensive! -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.28 08:52:00 -
[4 ]
Originally by: Gronsak perhaps but first all t2 ammo that does more damage than the old t2 high dmg ammo needs to be removed t2 ammo should help your ship be more defensive not offensive! it wouldnt have to be all 3 dmg types on the crystals, perhaps thermal as primary and explosive as secondary. can of course be tweaked up and down in values so it doesnt get overpowered. i see so much love going the way of gallente and caldari that it has to be time for atleast some love for amarr. and for EM hybrid ammo i wouldnt be against that either as long as it is applied properly. atm though i think its time for a little amarr love. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.28 08:57:00 -
[5 ]
Originally by: Bazman Only if we get EM Hybrid ammo And i can't think of any ship other than the Geddon that is the Mid Range wtfkiller. They are awesome long range too, much better than the Megathron at long distances tbh. You do need a close range ship though, hopefully the new Amarr BS will have something funky that makes it good at close range. Cross your fingers! :P for the geddon to be mid range wtfkiller it needs to use megapulses with the highest dmg crystal and atm one push of the mwd on the mega and he is in range of the geddon and under his guns tracking, and the geddon with megapulses on cant fit anywhere near as good tank as the mega or the domi with equal firepower in the highs. atm amarr got a mid to long range sniper with good dmg and a long range sniper/short range tanker with pitiful dmg up close with amarr guns on. its amazing that we have to fit autocannons to do close to equal dmg and tank up close. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.05.28 08:57:00 -
[6 ]
I'm craving for em/explosive T2 crystals like the ones they tested on SiSi before introducing the whole T2 ammo hassle at Tq but I also realize that it does sway the balance quite a lot: Tanking three damage type against possible foes (read: wtfpwning Amarrs) against tanking two damage types is a lot harder thus hindering your own capability to wtfbbq that awesome Amarrian overlord. This problem obviously comes to play when the brave Amarrian decides to do a multicrystal fit (I do that every now and then) and use f.e. 3 Auroras, 2 Scorches and x amount of em+exp dmg dealing crystals resulting in a total of 24*3+36*2+x*y=144+x*y EM and 14*3+6*2=54 THERM and x*z EXP (where y is the Mystery Crystal's EM damage and z is Mystery Crystal's EXP damage) damage done without damage multipliers, base damages etc. and knowing how Amarr T2 ammo is balanced in general, the y and z would most probably be somewhere around 30 and 10 making the EM damage quite high (not as high as with pure Aurora setup though) but making the explosive dmg an annoying damage dealer to the target which at least in PvP situation wouldn't be tanking that hard in the first place at all since PvP is mainly about damage dealing and EW. So while I agree that Amarrians should get a third damage type to their crystals I am aware of the problem that it would sway the balance a lot and most likely just cause a gazillion new "nerf Amarr" and "omg boost hybrids" threads. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
me sukyu
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:10:00 -
[7 ]
yeah lets make the zelot the complete IWIN ship 60/80/62.5/35 damn uber resistances, and look 80% to explovsive! oh whats that, minatar t2 ammo does mostly explosive? haha sucks to be them, and it gets worse munnin 92.5/10/25/67.5 oh nice, perfect for fighting laser ships...what theres explosive crystals now? oh well **** minmatar, no one likes them anyway
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:13:00 -
[8 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas I'm craving for em/explosive T2 crystals like the ones they tested on SiSi before introducing the whole T2 ammo hassle at Tq but I also realize that it does sway the balance quite a lot: Tanking three damage type against possible foes (read: wtfpwning Amarrs) against tanking two damage types is a lot harder thus hindering your own capability to wtfbbq that awesome Amarrian overlord. This problem obviously comes to play when the brave Amarrian decides to do a multicrystal fit (I do that every now and then) and use f.e. 3 Auroras, 2 Scorches and x amount of em+exp dmg dealing crystals resulting in a total of 24*3+36*2+x*y=144+x*y EM and 14*3+6*2=54 THERM and x*z EXP (where y is the Mystery Crystal's EM damage and z is Mystery Crystal's EXP damage) damage done without damage multipliers, base damages etc. and knowing how Amarr T2 ammo is balanced in general, the y and z would most probably be somewhere around 30 and 10 making the EM damage quite high (not as high as with pure Aurora setup though) but making the explosive dmg an annoying damage dealer to the target which at least in PvP situation wouldn't be tanking that hard in the first place at all since PvP is mainly about damage dealing and EW. So while I agree that Amarrians should get a third damage type to their crystals I am aware of the problem that it would sway the balance a lot and most likely just cause a gazillion new "nerf Amarr" and "omg boost hybrids" threads. im not thinking of making it stronger then the ammo we got already. and i dont recommend that it will be EM+Explosive but rather Thermal+Explosive. heck even make a new T1 version also with T1 levels of it. dmg output doesnt have to be more just different. its silly when the amarr hac cant dmg a minmatar one at all just because he has a EM hardener on. there is no other race that has that huge limitations versus their racial enemy like the amarr has, and amarr havent got anything speaking for it at the moment. look at Caldari, Great ECM ships, Great Missile ships, Great Shield tanking BS look at Gallente, Dominix wtfpwn iwin button inside 25k, Megathron very good dmg output with good tank at close range, Mega good sniper with +tracking bonus, best carrier look atMinmatar, best Hac going at inty speeds 3k+, best oneshot dmg snipers with explosive dmg, great frigates, 4 midslot inty and then there is Amarr, shiny textures, Tachyons are somewhat usable now but still you need several slots dedicated to caprecharge or you will not be shooting for long, any amarr ship basically gets wtfpwned by a vagabond since the amarr guns cant do any dmg to it. EM and thermal is the 2 most tanked dmg types ingame. and its the only dmg that we can do with our guns. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:16:00 -
[9 ]
Originally by: me sukyu rabble..rabble first.. post with your main. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:22:00 -
[10 ]
Edited by: Tassi on 28/05/2006 09:22:26 I always see whining gallente dudes. They cant fit neutrons and a double large repper tank. I mean WTF dudes if I want to fit guns + double rep tank on my geddon I need to downgrade to dual heavy pulses and still need a CPU and only have 2x t2 heat sinks. Optimal is very nice with Scorch and damage aswell but a blaserthron is hard to beat! Against a dominix you can eject anyway. Apoc is nice with neuts/nos but still crappy damage, not the same as a dominix which has wtfpwn dmg and nice ecm. Ah well, tachygeddon, with 2x RCU, very good closerange!
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:25:00 -
[11 ]
Originally by: Tassi Ah well, tachygeddon, with 2x RCU, very good closerange! hahaha the sweet sarcasm Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:32:00 -
[12 ]
Edited by: Tassi on 28/05/2006 09:31:53 I bet when the first caldari/Gallente warriors see this topic we will hear: "YOU DON'T NEED AMMO" Yeah, the crystals I fit into my guns that cost quite more than your ammo and will be destroyed aswell when the ship pops cost nothing right?
LUKEC
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:46:00 -
[13 ]
Edited by: LUKEC on 28/05/2006 09:48:28 nm Die, die, die.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:48:00 -
[14 ]
The "no ammo" aspect of lasers is pretty much countered by the "needs lots of cap" aspect. Of cource, getting the ship skill high helps, but it's not like that bonus is free.
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:49:00 -
[15 ]
Edited by: Tassi on 28/05/2006 09:50:25 Originally by: LUKEC Sniff... that funny thing about going under the tracking of megapulses... ever heard of WEB? But the blasterthron will still outdamage you even if you web it. And it has a double large armor rep tank on, which you don't because you are going with mega pulses so no grid left. So the bthron does more dps + has a tank! You have less dps and no tank at all. EDIT: Sorry lukec, I am just faster than you
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:51:00 -
[16 ]
Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Tassi Edited by: Tassi on 28/05/2006 09:31:53 I bet when the first caldari/Gallente warriors see this topic we will hear: "YOU DON'T NEED AMMO" Yeah, the crystals I fit into my guns that cost quite more than your ammo and will be destroyed aswell when the ship pops cost nothing right? Sniff... that funny thing about going under the tracking of megapulses... ever heard of WEB? the megas mass still pushes him the last 5k needed to get into his most damaging optimal so a web dont do much difference as he can now fit a good tank and a high dmg output wich the geddon cannot do equally good. as for the domi thats a nobrainer as he will suck the geddon dry inside 25k and jam him and put out more dmg then the geddon at the same time while having a hell of alot better tank. amarr needs abit of dev loving in the shortgame also Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
MadGaz
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:52:00 -
[17 ]
Medium beam lasers need their pg requirements fixed aswell. --------------------------- What can I put here without getting banned?
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:54:00 -
[18 ]
Originally by: Aramendel The "no ammo" aspect of lasers is pretty much countered by the "needs lots of cap" aspect. Of cource, getting the ship skill high helps, but it's not like that bonus is free. i would not mind loading my beams or pulses with 25-100 crystals that costs a few isk per shot so i dont have to carry 25mill+ in ammo on every ship. i bet you dont see a mega toting around constantly with 25+mill in ammo in their cargo all the time now do you? Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.28 09:58:00 -
[19 ]
Edited by: Tassi on 28/05/2006 09:59:26 The only way to beat a blasterthron is if the fight starts outside 20 km or you use ECM drones, but the blasterthron can use them aswell so thats no argument here. If the blasterthron is using EANMII's to tank you have lost already. 80% EM resist is not cool EDIT: Amarr is still cool, if you have implants like Hanns
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.28 10:06:00 -
[20 ]
Originally by: Tassi Edited by: Tassi on 28/05/2006 09:59:26 The only way to beat a blasterthron is if the fight starts outside 20 km or you use ECM drones, but the blasterthron can use them aswell so thats no argument here. If the blasterthron is using EANMII's to tank you have lost already. 80% EM resist is not cool EDIT: Amarr is still cool, if you have implants like Hanns and then amarr cant use their most dmg crystal either as we need to go for the higher range one because of the centimeter long falloff we have. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.28 10:11:00 -
[21 ]
Edited by: Tassi on 28/05/2006 10:12:02 Another problem is that the -50% optimal ammo cripples amarr more than other races. -50% optimal is peanuts for autocannons/arties compared to lasers because their strenght is falloff! The same but to a lesser extent goes for blasters/railguns. EDIT: I think amarr got left behind for quite some time because we have not enough whiners/Warriors.
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.05.28 10:13:00 -
[22 ]
The fact that lasers don't need ammo is an advantage only in grinding battles that last over 1h or in long jouneys in 0.0 I've benn plaing this game for quite sometime and i can't remenber when Amarr got some love. Maybe that's cuz we can't cry and whine all the time. It's time we get some love. We need those EX crystals like a fish needs water. Apocalypse during a battle: Crew member - "Sir we have a large hole in our armour. What shall I do?” Captain - "Take this hammer and go fix it".
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.05.28 10:15:00 -
[23 ]
Originally by: me sukyu yeah lets make the zelot the complete IWIN ship 60/80/62.5/35 damn uber resistances, and look 80% to explovsive! oh whats that, minatar t2 ammo does mostly explosive? haha sucks to be them, and it gets worse munnin 92.5/10/25/67.5 oh nice, perfect for fighting laser ships...what theres explosive crystals now? oh well **** minmatar, no one likes them anyway U got hardeners and your ammo can do all types of dmg Apocalypse during a battle: Crew member - "Sir we have a large hole in our armour. What shall I do?” Captain - "Take this hammer and go fix it".
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.28 10:35:00 -
[24 ]
Originally by: General Apocalypse Originally by: me sukyu yeah lets make the zelot the complete IWIN ship 60/80/62.5/35 damn uber resistances, and look 80% to explovsive! oh whats that, minatar t2 ammo does mostly explosive? haha sucks to be them, and it gets worse munnin 92.5/10/25/67.5 oh nice, perfect for fighting laser ships...what theres explosive crystals now? oh well **** minmatar, no one likes them anyway U got hardeners and your ammo can do all types of dmg Apocalypse during a battle: Crew member - "Sir we have a large hole in our armour. What shall I do?ö Captain - "Take this hammer and go fix it". and their best resist are against EM&Thermal wich is the only dmg amarr guns do Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Forsch
Posted - 2006.05.28 15:05:00 -
[25 ]
Originally by: me sukyu munnin 92.5/10/25/67.5 oh nice, perfect for fighting laser ships...what theres explosive crystals now? oh well **** minmatar, no one likes them anyway If we get t2 explosive crystals, they would probably be balanced damage wise (read: cut down). What's your Muninn doing if it's fighting a Muninn which is doing mainly explosive damage? Even more ****** than against lasers, huh? Explosive crystals won't be unbalancing as long as their damage is reasonable. But that's not what people are arguing about on these forums. They hear explosive crystals and totally freak out.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.28 16:32:00 -
[26 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 28/05/2006 16:32:15 The problem is basically that Amarr BSs are (with one exeption) the only ones which have only 2 hard damagetypes. Minnies - projectile ammo with all damagetypes Caladri - missles with.. Gallente - drones with.. for the Dominix at least. The Megathron has in this aspect a similar problem with it being limited to 2 damagetypes, but a Mega pilot can at least switch to a Domi when needed without having to learn another BS skill.
Calisto Cody
Posted - 2006.05.28 17:01:00 -
[27 ]
i dont like the idea of a explosive crystal..sounds wrong tbh (yes i fly amarr )The Black Swan Society Berneh is not appropriate for the forums -
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.28 17:07:00 -
[28 ]
I definately agree there, a laser doing explosive damage would be..strange. But, unless my physics knowledge totally betrays me, a laser doing EM damage is about as impossible. From a realistic standpoint lasers should only do thermal damage.
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.05.28 17:16:00 -
[29 ]
Originally by: Calisto Cody i dont like the idea of a explosive crystal..sounds wrong tbh (yes i fly amarr ) Lasers are light which is one of the purest form of energy. Shooting very high amounts of energy to anything that's made of atoms will cause either neutrons or electrons to start shifting in those atoms and thus the making the atoms react with each other in one form or another. There's couple of possible reactions, one is fusion of two or more atoms which makes the atoms combine to something totally different or the electrons and lose atoms may turn into ionized cloud in a rapid fashion thus causing an "explosion" of sorts, more accurately a gazillion atomic explosions. Totally unrelated, the body heat which human body creates is caused by constant combustion in our cells. It's just so small scaled that we don't see it but chemically we all are constantly exploding ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.05.28 17:22:00 -
[30 ]
you have people that ''fly'' amarr you have people that ''can fly'' amarr imo only the 1st have reason to speak here, and yeah atm since most people in eve armor tank and the ones that shield tank still manage to get their EM resist @ 75%, amarr are getting a bit behind, least CCP can do is switch dmg to 2/3 thermal and 1/3 EM instead of 1/3 thermal and 2/3 EM
Forsch
Posted - 2006.05.28 17:27:00 -
[31 ]
Originally by: Deathbarrage least CCP can do is switch dmg to 2/3 thermal and 1/3 EM instead of 1/3 thermal and 2/3 EM I always wante dthe crystals not to differ in only their range and amount of damage but also to offer different ratios of EM and Thermal. A crystal with vastly more EM might be better than one doing just thermal in certain situations. Amarr ships can switch their crystals quick, great. But it would be alot cooler to have a reason for a switch, other than different optimals, which are only really useable on battleships (for instance multifrequency range compared to ultraviolet is just too small to be worth changing in mid fight. That is on small and medium ones. By the time you finished switching you could already switch o the next set.)Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.28 17:45:00 -
[32 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Lasers are light which is one of the purest form of energy. Shooting very high amounts of energy to anything that's made of atoms will cause either neutrons or electrons to start shifting in those atoms and thus the making the atoms react with each other in one form or another. There's couple of possible reactions, one is fusion of two or more atoms which makes the atoms combine to something totally different or the electrons and lose atoms may turn into ionized cloud in a rapid fashion thus causing an "explosion" of sorts, more accurately a gazillion atomic explosions. Totally unrelated, the body heat which human body creates is caused by constant combustion in our cells. It's just so small scaled that we don't see it but chemically we all are constantly exploding Er.. no, thats Humbug, pseudo-science. All a laser is doing is heating stuff up, resulting in the target melting or (if the energy is sufficient) vaporising. This does not create any explosive (or EM, for that matter) force per se. And it certainly does not create anything remotely similar to an atomic explosion. The only thing which could create an explosive effect would be an ultra-high energy burst of a laser which would vaporise a small amount of armor instantly. Which would create a vapor explosion. Volume of anything in vapor form >>> volume of anything in solid form, so the vapor has to expand, which *could* result im it wrecking nearby armor by an explosive effect. The problem here is that in order to do this the force by the light preasure of the laser has to be higher than the resistance of the armor, otherwise the vapor would just escape through he hole being made by the laser.
Foomanshoe
Posted - 2006.05.28 17:58:00 -
[33 ]
Originally by: Gronsak perhaps but first all t2 ammo that does more damage than the old t2 high dmg ammo needs to be removed t2 ammo should help your ship be more defensive not offensive! Why would ammo, which is by definition a purely offensive item, make your ship more offensive? I dont remember anyone ever blocking a bullet shot with another bullet. _______________________________________________ Deadspace For Dead space! Originally by: Oveur To the nerfmobile!
Asurix
Posted - 2006.05.28 18:20:00 -
[34 ]
Originally by: Foomanshoe Originally by: Gronsak perhaps but first all t2 ammo that does more damage than the old t2 high dmg ammo needs to be removed t2 ammo should help your ship be more defensive not offensive! Why would ammo, which is by definition a purely offensive item, make your ship more offensive? I dont remember anyone ever blocking a bullet shot with another bullet. Steven Seagal ftw
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.28 19:42:00 -
[35 ]
Originally by: Foomanshoe Why would ammo, which is by definition a purely offensive item, make your ship more offensive? Because it is an offensive icon of cource! I assume the 2nd "offensive" should be "defensive"?
Epsilon 1
Posted - 2006.05.28 19:49:00 -
[36 ]
Signed. Simple solution: Switch crystal EM damage for THERMAL and THERMAL for EM. ~~Same damage on shields, more damage on armour (not tanked targets). Having EM as primary is pure bolox. They called them HEAT Sinks for a reason Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
hylleX
Posted - 2006.05.28 19:52:00 -
[37 ]
Originally by: Tassi EDIT: I think amarr got left behind for quite some time because we have not enough whiners/Warriors. So true actually ---------------------------------------------------------
Epsilon 1
Posted - 2006.05.28 20:02:00 -
[38 ]
Originally by: hylleX Originally by: Tassi EDIT: I think amarr got left behind for quite some time because we have not enough whiners/Warriors. So true actually http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=344414 ^ Game Development Forum Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Frools
Posted - 2006.05.28 20:14:00 -
[39 ]
i have the solution to amarr special racial bonus for all amarr ships: no stacking penalty on heat sinks
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.28 20:24:00 -
[40 ]
Na, just make lasers use no energy and give the amarr ships a bonus for ROF or damage instead capacitator use. Hey, it worked for the minnies!
Taka
Posted - 2006.05.28 20:33:00 -
[41 ]
I dont know if this has been mention but why the hell does Radio only Do EM damage??? -------------------- My Sig Got Podded!!Removed second image, please limit your signature images to one - Petwraith
Nira Li
Posted - 2006.05.28 21:25:00 -
[42 ]
Why can't I fit a doomsday weapon on my geddon?!!!?!?! Stupid game You Will Cry My NameFunny Guys
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.05.28 21:33:00 -
[43 ]
Originally by: Taka I dont know if this has been mention but why the hell does Radio only Do EM damage??? So you can snipe someone's shields? Meh, I use Microwave for long range anyway... ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Draconis
Posted - 2006.05.28 22:32:00 -
[44 ]
Alright I'll throw my two cookies in here. I've flown Amarr since beta, seen it in it's glory when Apocs had twice the HP of all BSes and could do 10k damage a volley with 4 Tachyons. Of course that drew one hell of a nerf from the devs as it should. When Ravens used Tachyons you knew Amarr were overpowered. But now with all these changes coming about I'd like to see the Amarr get up to parr. They took away everything so people would stop playing Amarr and try the other races. But haven't yet given us the shinies back. Now while I don't expect the game to turn over and hand me a shiney uber ship like the old Cavalry Raven, but when CCP first gave out descriptions for the ships, the Gallente were supposed to be long range turret ships that would sit in the distance and support their drones with Hybrid fire. The Amarr were of course the close range ships that had large amounts of armour that would allow them to sustain the damage until they could get close at which point they would be something truely to be feared. Now we all know that's changed amazingly over the past 3 years. Gallente have changed up to be the most dominant in roles like Sniping (Yes the Megathroni s better than the Tempest in this roll, I know I can fly both) and in close range the only way a Blasterthron was to be really taken down in close combat was being able to out live the major cap use of blasters. now with the changes the Gallente with both ships have taken the Close range role as well. So with that being said there's really no place for our Amarrian ships to take a role. The Amarrian ships are the only ships in the game that technically have only one bonus in a combat role. They give up most of their first ship bonuses to Capacitor reduction on their guns. Which mean we rarely in turn can muster up alot of damage unless we sacrifice all manners of a tank for damage output modules. This puts us below ships like the Megathron which can pull more damage close range as well as a successful tank that allows them to close distance or just wether the storm. I don't honestly want CCP to make Amarr ships better than the rest. I would like them to find a role for all teh ships and stick to it. The Punisher, Maller and Apocalypse were to be teh true ships to fear when they engaged at close range. Now they've been surpassed by the Incursus, Thorax, Dominix and Megathron. Strangely 3 out of those 4 ships can also change to a long range role and still be more effective than that of an Amarrian ship all while maintaining some kind of defense. The Empire was described to use strength in numbers. Unfortunately CCP is following that making it so you require two Amarrian ships to bring down one ship of any other race. Doesn't make sense in a game..
Wheya
Posted - 2006.05.28 23:59:00 -
[45 ]
The boost to blasters was needed very badly. The effect of no cap use on projectile weapons remains to be seen. It sure doesnt make a huge difference to the previous state of cap use if you only look at cap usage. Being able to shoot without cap at all enables you to fully utilise neutralizers, though. Against public opinion amarrian ships are not the cap monsters after you subtract the cap used by lasers. What happened lately? I say energized nanoplatings with armor compensation skills changed a lot. In the past it was very common to use 3 active hardeners for armor tanking - explosive, kinetic and thermal. Today nanoplatings are a common sight which also add more resistance to em.
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.05.29 00:34:00 -
[46 ]
I fly Amarr and Caldari (because I pretty much have to). I posted this in the Cruiser post in the ship forum, it seems to fit better here. Sorry about the length. I think the overall problem is that the other 3 factions have had the problems with their ships slowly but surely worked out. The Amarr weren't really that broken at the time so no one looked at them and people on the forums bashed any post about their balance. Now with the fixes in place for the other factions, the overall hp boost, the Amarr just haven't kept up. Their base damage and damage types on lasers never kept up with the improvements to tanking and improvements to the other factions fitting problems. What you have now is the other factions now have ships that do more damage (taking in the cap use and damage type problems that Amarr have) with no cap or little cap use and they can fit a nice tank too. There are several ships now that work well at close and long ranges. That leaves the Amarr with slightly better tanking, with guns that eat the cap that helps keep that tanking edge and ships that can not do decent damage while fitting a good tank (not the best tank, but a good one). These problems really shows up in cruisers, and with the Apoc and Geddon. What can be done? One or more of the following-- 1. Improve Amarr tanks across the board to make up for the tank and damage improvements in the other factions. The Amarr were balanced before the changes, how could they stay balanced after? Cruisers should be able to use medium guns without ruining their tank! The Gallente, Caldari, and Minnie can do it, why should the Amarr be left out? 2. For the cruisers and frigates you could improve the fittings, either by reducing the requirements for medium and to a lesser extent small lasers and gear or improving the ships' grid and cpu where needed. The Maller should be able to fit medium lasers and a decent (or great) tank, just like the other factions. Don't make it the damage king, but make the damage good enough that it has a fair chance of killing the other cruisers before it's somewhat better tank breaks against their much better damage. 3. Improve laser damage - I am sick of hearing the base damage arguement! Ships got an HP boost, they can now also fit better tanks with better resists. The base damage advantage has been lost. Now lasers eat much much more cap than their counterparts, it used to be the Amarr could tank the damage and slowly wear down enemies, now doing damage wears down the cap for their tanks, while the enemy can tank the damage better and inflict more damage than before. 4. Em and Thermal Damage isn't what it use to be! Better tanks on enemy ships and the ability to better improve all resistances at the same time have put a major hurting on the damage types done by lasers. Perhaps increase their damage some more, or their thermal damages with the mid to low range crystals. If you keep the improvements at mid and low ranges you will not throw off the fleet combat balance I keep reading about (which may not be as balanced as it once was with the recent changes). --- Or give them a crystal with range just a little over multifrequency that does explosive or kinetic damage.... there are 2 factions in the game now that can select their damage type with little or no cap use, and gallente have better drone bays that they can use to help with another damage type and blasters got some much needed loving.
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.29 01:34:00 -
[47 ]
Originally by: Wheya The boost to blasters was needed very badly. The effect of no cap use on projectile weapons remains to be seen. It sure doesnt make a huge difference to the previous state of cap use if you only look at cap usage. Being able to shoot without cap at all enables you to fully utilise neutralizers, though. Against public opinion amarrian ships are not the cap monsters after you subtract the cap used by lasers. What happened lately? I say energized nanoplatings with armor compensation skills changed a lot. In the past it was very common to use 3 active hardeners for armor tanking - explosive, kinetic and thermal. Today nanoplatings are a common sight which also add more resistance to em. im not saying that the boost to blaster wasnt needed, what i am saying is that with all the different boosts for everyone else so they can do BOTH dmg and tank at the same time has left Amarr behind not being able to compete in either tank or dmg. and amarr definetly cant do both at the same time like gallente and caldari can. heck even a apoc with 800mm projectiles outdamages and outtanks a Apoc with megapulses and does more dmg types, doesnt that say to you that something is very very wrong with the balancing here? Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Tasty Burger
Posted - 2006.05.29 01:45:00 -
[48 ]
Originally by: Malken Originally by: Wheya heck even a apoc with 800mm projectiles outdamages a Apoc with megapulses wtf, no.
Nemain
Posted - 2006.05.29 02:11:00 -
[49 ]
Amarr definetly need somthing done if not an explosive crystal. ALL the other races can do all damage types to some extent, and that includes galante as most of their ships have decent size drone bays. Of all the races, amarr have the least options to modify damage types due to the unimaginative design. All other races can field decent ew, the amarr can only really make a showing on that front with a few specialised ships. Galante Hybrids, Drones, ew and armour tanking Minmattar Projectiles, missiles, ew, drones and armour and shield tanking Caldari Missiles, Hybrids, ew and shield tanking Amarr Energy weapons, and armour tanking Amarr are sorely lacking in variety compared to other races (minmattar could be said to be the exact opposite, overly unspecialised in some cases). An explosive crystal would go some way to helping for a start but amarr need an entire rethink and a secondary weapon system made available. Drones would be a good choice as they allow choice of daage type and ew, but also don't cause the actual ships to falter from the low tech design doctrine. If not make them the best at what they do as they are more specialised in guns and armour tanks than any other race. When gally ships have more turrets than amarr equivilents it makes me cringe, even tho I can fly either just as well (brutix and prophecy spring to mind).
Dopefish
Posted - 2006.05.29 02:32:00 -
[50 ]
I remember the mega pulse 1 having an optimal of 24km ( 30km on modulated ) back when gankageddon was in its prime...this was nerfed down to 20km ( 24km ). How about unnerfing that now that the geddon isnt the uberpwn ship it used to be.
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.29 02:35:00 -
[51 ]
Originally by: Tasty Burger Originally by: Malken Originally by: Wheya heck even a apoc with 800mm projectiles outdamages a Apoc with megapulses wtf, no. wtfyeswai. you can fit 800s and put 2dmg mods on the poc instead of the CPR's that you need to keep amarr guns going and thus do more dmg and use less cap for shooting. wich also makes you tank way better. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Exortius Amarrus
Posted - 2006.05.29 02:40:00 -
[52 ]
I've been playing EVE for about 6 months and have been flying Amarr ships since day 1. I read through this site before i started my trial, and was impressed with the amarr descriptions. A superior tank with slow but steady damage output. Sort of like a steamroller . However, when i began playing i was disppointed with amarr ships. The most glaring issue was the dismal damage output of lasers as compared to other ships. The cap usage is also disgusting. My corpmates were doing 60dmg when i was doing 10-20. I now fly a mix of caldari and amarr ships, as caldari are simply easier to compete with at lower levels. The argument that explosive crystals are not "scientifically explainable" or rational does not hold water. EVE is a game with spaceships using jumpgates, warp drives, and drones. If these things were explainable today this wouldn't be a game, as we'd all really be doing it . I'm sure CCP could write an EVE chronicle detailing how these new crystals work, and it would be fine by me. I'm all for explosive crystals, but the cap usage of lasers also needs to be adjusted. I would gladly give up half of my shields for a massive boost in cap recharge. Caldari, Minmatar, and Gallente are all respectable in combat, whereas Amarr ships are generally not as feared; especially at lower levels (cruisers, for ex). Just my 2 isks ---------------------------------------- Exortius Amarrus, CEO, High Council, The Clearwater Society <together, we can be stronger>
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.29 08:26:00 -
[53 ]
could we get a confirmation from Tux that Amarr is on the "look at" list atleast ? Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.29 09:10:00 -
[54 ]
Originally by: Malken could we get a confirmation from Tux that Amarr is on the "look at" list atleast ? As I said Amarr pilots do not whine enough on the forums. Until we fixed our "amarr-lobby" whining on the forums none will listen to us. The only whiner/warrior I can think of is Meridius atm Let's make an amarr-lobby and whine in all the gallente (haha jep, make their ships even more better) and minmatar threads?
Elve Sorrow
Posted - 2006.05.29 09:12:00 -
[55 ]
Originally by: Tassi The only whiner/warrior I can think of is Meridius atm Im offended, thanks.
boost lasers
Posted - 2006.05.29 09:16:00 -
[56 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Tassi The only whiner/warrior I can think of is Meridius atm Im offended, thanks.<3 elve ____________________________________________________ __
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.29 09:19:00 -
[57 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Im offended, thanks. Hmmm, I saw your crusader with autocannons. Is there more to mention? AUTOCANNONS on the sader
Elve Sorrow
Posted - 2006.05.29 09:20:00 -
[58 ]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 29/05/2006 09:20:59 Originally by: Tassi Originally by: Elve Sorrow Im offended, thanks. Hmmm, I saw your crusader with autocannons. Is there more to mention? AUTOCANNONS on the sader Yea, Autocannons are just too good. 2 Grid each? NERF ATUOCANNONS EDIT: I should be able to spell autocannons correcntly
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.29 09:23:00 -
[59 ]
At least be an amarr and go with our gatlings! You also got 800's on your Apoc I guess?
Elve Sorrow
Posted - 2006.05.29 09:27:00 -
[60 ]
Originally by: Tassi At least be an amarr and go with our gatlings! You also got 800's on your Apoc I guess? No, i can only use Small and Medium tech2 Projectiles atm.
Elve Sorrow
Posted - 2006.05.29 09:30:00 -
[61 ]
Originally by: Tassi EDIT: However, this shows that there is really flaw with lasers. People are using projectiles on amarr ships that have no dmg bonus. I always like when AC users tell us "Low grid use is an advantage of fitting AC's", ok, but where is the disadvantage? DMG is fine with minmatar ships, range is nice, good dmg types which are important in frigfights because of plates. No disadvantages at all maybe? Best example: Claw: 50 Grid Crusader: 50 Grid One needs to fill 4 gunslots with guns using 6-12 Grid each. The other has 3 gunslots with guns using 1-4 Grid each. The largest Autocannon uses 33% less grid then the fcking smallest laser! Whine post coming up later today, about Amarr in general.
Kaladr
Posted - 2006.05.29 09:32:00 -
[62 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Tassi EDIT: However, this shows that there is really flaw with lasers. People are using projectiles on amarr ships that have no dmg bonus. I always like when AC users tell us "Low grid use is an advantage of fitting AC's", ok, but where is the disadvantage? DMG is fine with minmatar ships, range is nice, good dmg types which are important in frigfights because of plates. No disadvantages at all maybe? Best example: Claw: 50 Grid Crusader: 50 Grid One needs to fill 4 gunslots with guns using 6-12 Grid each. The other has 3 gunslots with guns using 1-4 Grid each. The largest Autocannon uses 33% less grid then the fcking smallest laser! Whine post coming up later today, about Amarr in general. I second you here. Its getting bad. I mean its fun and all to fit projectiles on amarr ships, but you don't get any of the minmatar bonuses. ----EVE-Central.com | Obsidian Technologies - 0.0 Manufacturing, Defense and Logistics. We're hiring! Mail me
Yurdis Astor
Posted - 2006.05.29 09:44:00 -
[63 ]
Im 100% dedicated to Amarr. That means T2 large guns, hacs and CS. After all this way, only 2 amarr ships keeps me happy about my choice of race. Zealot, and Absolution. They are the only ships that fit the role, that the backstory has created, and does a job well. Geddon is allso a fine ship, which I do like, but only for more specialized jobs. Everything else I fly, is allways undocked with a funny gut feeling. Its simply very very hard to shine, with amarr. The Amarr is the only race with a special slot layout, that implies a higher purpose. Damage or tank. But this very limited slot layout, doesnt give the pilot, his niche as it should. We are still left with enemies that does higher dmg, or tanks better, even though we dedicate a setup to one or the other. And wer certainly allmost never left with an element of surprice. My feelings was hurt when I saw the Eos come with a bonus to armor tanking, and now outtanking the Absolution, while ripping it open with blasters. It hurts to see the Vagabond, outdmg zealot, while wearing 2 stabs. It hurts to see Megathron dual repping and opening us like a can of tunafish. It hurts to see multipurpose ships like raven and Domi, out tank, jam, and outdamage my ships that are left with no option to vary setups, but is forced to dedicate, though still getting killed. Why do I allways get the feeling, that amarr is half-assed?
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.05.29 09:55:00 -
[64 ]
Originally by: Yurdis Astor Edit: oh I forgot. Ive NEVER flown a frig with the large Frig sized guns. No frig in EVE can fit them!!!! Only 1 frig can effectively use the large frig guns (Retri) Dont even get me started on the frig long range guns. THose are apparetnly ONLY for cruisers. QFT. When I first fitted my Maller I felt lucky I could put on a full rack of Medium Pulse Laser II:s (those are frig sized btw despite the word "medium" in their name)...it's just wrong. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Gozmoth
Posted - 2006.05.29 10:03:00 -
[65 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas QFT. When I first fitted my Maller I felt lucky I could put on a full rack of Medium Pulse Laser II:s (those are frig sized btw despite the word "medium" in their name)...it's just wrong. +1 !
Epsilon 1
Posted - 2006.05.29 10:08:00 -
[66 ]
Edited by: Epsilon 1 on 29/05/2006 10:08:42 REJOICE MY BROTHERS ! There's a thread about amarr closerange bs @ Game developers forums. edit: bolox wrong char Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Epsilon 1
Posted - 2006.05.29 10:12:00 -
[67 ]
Originally by: Dopefish I remember the mega pulse 1 having an optimal of 24km ( 30km on modulated ) back when gankageddon was in its prime...this was nerfed down to 20km ( 24km ). How about unnerfing that now that the geddon isnt the uberpwn ship it used to be. Thy post speaks the truth. UNnErf Megapulses Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Sku1ly
Posted - 2006.05.29 10:14:00 -
[68 ]
I can't remember what I was going to say while reading :(. I think for one thing, the****abond and the moomin should have lower EM/Thermal resistances. Yes they're our enemies, but why is our resistance now par with theirs?STK-S Website
Epsilon 1
Posted - 2006.05.29 10:19:00 -
[69 ]
Please post here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=344414 And lets hope the community will get a response from the developers. Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
boost lasers
Posted - 2006.05.29 10:30:00 -
[70 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Whine post coming up later today, about Amarr in general. \o/ ____________________________________________________ __
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.29 11:55:00 -
[71 ]
Edited by: Tassi on 29/05/2006 11:55:44 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Whine post coming up later today, about Amarr in general. Will post abit there aswell There are still very nice amarr ships. Pilgrim and curse, zealot is also cool, crusader in some strange way aswell. The geddon as bs is not that bad. Apoc only rocks with nos/neut and maybe 1 - 2 multi specs in mids. Dunno about the absolution, can't fly it.
madaluap
Posted - 2006.05.29 12:27:00 -
[72 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 29/05/2006 12:31:32 Quote: I always see whining gallente dudes. They cant fit neutrons and a double large repper tank. I mean WTF dudes if I want to fit guns + double rep tank on my geddon I need to downgrade to dual heavy pulses and still need a CPU and only have 2x t2 heat sinks. Optimal is very nice with Scorch and damage aswell but a blaserthron is hard to beat! Against a dominix you can eject anyway. Apoc is nice with neuts/nos but still crappy damage, not the same as a dominix which has wtfpwn dmg and nice ecm. Ah well, tachygeddon, with 2x RCU, very good closerange! What a load of crap... you are to biased to even talk about gallente. You know how much ****ting problems the megahtron has/had, finnaly we dont get our asses handed to us by a tier 1 geddon in a closerange fight and now ammar are whining. No mister, i can barely fit ion 2 + 1 large armor rep 2. Now imagine NEUTRON, this means no tank at all, heee cant you fit 1 armor rep with you megapulse..yes you can, so stfu. You having to downgrade to dual lasers is the same that we cant fit neutron and downgrade to ion/electron. And your dmg/s hasnt been altered, our dmg/s hasnt been altered so you STILL do more dgm/s than us from: 14 k range or put those ubercrystals in from 45!! k range. /emote loads up the null ammo sweet! 40 k optimal..or not. LOL @ your need to fit CPU hahaha i allways have a standard cpu-upgrade in my setup, only bs that didnt have one was the vindicator, because i had that faction pimped. And you whine @ the dominix, just nerf ecm than, problem fixed... _________________________________________________
Epsilon 1
Posted - 2006.05.29 12:33:00 -
[73 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 29/05/2006 12:31:32 Quote: I always see whining gallente dudes. They cant fit neutrons and a double large repper tank. I mean WTF dudes if I want to fit guns + double rep tank on my geddon I need to downgrade to dual heavy pulses and still need a CPU and only have 2x t2 heat sinks. Optimal is very nice with Scorch and damage aswell but a blaserthron is hard to beat! Against a dominix you can eject anyway. Apoc is nice with neuts/nos but still crappy damage, not the same as a dominix which has wtfpwn dmg and nice ecm. Ah well, tachygeddon, with 2x RCU, very good closerange! What a load of crap... you are to biased to even talk about gallente. You know how much ****ting problems the megahtron has/had, finnaly we dont get our asses handed to us by a tier 1 geddon in a closerange fight and now ammar are whining. No mister, i can barely fit ion 2 + 1 large armor rep 2. Now imagine NEUTRON, this means no tank at all, heee cant you fit 1 armor rep with you megapulse..yes you can, so stfu. You having to downgrade to dual lasers is the same that we cant fit neutron and downgrade to ion/electron. And your dmg/s hasnt been altered, our dmg/s hasnt been altered so you STILL do more dgm/s than us from: 14 k range or put those ubercrystals in from 45!! k range. /emote loads up the null ammo sweet! 40 k optimal..or not. LOL @ your need to fit CPU hahaha i allways have a standard cpu-upgrade in my setup, only bs that didnt have one was the vindicator, because i had that faction pimped. And you whine @ the dominix, just nerf ecm than, problem fixed... Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.29 13:30:00 -
[74 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 29/05/2006 12:31:32 Quote: I always see whining gallente dudes. They cant fit neutrons and a double large repper tank. I mean WTF dudes if I want to fit guns + double rep tank on my geddon I need to downgrade to dual heavy pulses and still need a CPU and only have 2x t2 heat sinks. Optimal is very nice with Scorch and damage aswell but a blaserthron is hard to beat! Against a dominix you can eject anyway. Apoc is nice with neuts/nos but still crappy damage, not the same as a dominix which has wtfpwn dmg and nice ecm. Ah well, tachygeddon, with 2x RCU, very good closerange! What a load of crap... you are to biased to even talk about gallente. You know how much ****ting problems the megahtron has/had, finnaly we dont get our asses handed to us by a tier 1 geddon in a closerange fight and now ammar are whining. No mister, i can barely fit ion 2 + 1 large armor rep 2. Now imagine NEUTRON, this means no tank at all, heee cant you fit 1 armor rep with you megapulse..yes you can, so stfu. You having to downgrade to dual lasers is the same that we cant fit neutron and downgrade to ion/electron. And your dmg/s hasnt been altered, our dmg/s hasnt been altered so you STILL do more dgm/s than us from: 14 k range or put those ubercrystals in from 45!! k range. /emote loads up the null ammo sweet! 40 k optimal..or not. LOL @ your need to fit CPU hahaha i allways have a standard cpu-upgrade in my setup, only bs that didnt have one was the vindicator, because i had that faction pimped. And you whine @ the dominix, just nerf ecm than, problem fixed... if you want to know i can fly both gallente BS pretty good actually. got all the skills for it also. still to get anywhere near the same dmg output as a mega wich uses a good tank also i get 15k range on my geddon and cant use much of a tank to talk of. you have no idea on how to fly a amarr BS so dont talk like you do pls. and i have flown amarr ships for a very long time and like them very much but as of late with all the other races getting tweaks and boosts the amarr's best close range BS is a apoc with autocannons. you would be pretty ****ed and you would cry like insane if you did more dmg and could tank better in your mega using megapulses instead of blasters right? put yourself in our shoes for awhile and think. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Calisto Cody
Posted - 2006.05.29 13:35:00 -
[75 ]
owned The Black Swan Society Berneh is not appropriate for the forums -
DanMck
Posted - 2006.05.29 14:01:00 -
[76 ]
also when you see a target and he docks , after spotting your amarr ship what does he do ? goes and fits something to increase his em and theratic resists , so he is twice as hard to kill and i can't blame them as i would do it aswell we need to be able to vary the damage output so we can be more difficult to predict don't need to hit harder just hit with kin or exp
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.29 14:05:00 -
[77 ]
Originally by: madaluap What a load of crap... you are to biased to even talk about gallente. You know how much ****ting problems the megahtron has/had, finnaly we dont get our asses handed to us by a tier 1 geddon in a closerange fight and now ammar are whining. No mister, i can barely fit ion 2 + 1 large armor rep 2. Now imagine NEUTRON, this means no tank at all, heee cant you fit 1 armor rep with you megapulse..yes you can, so stfu. You having to downgrade to dual lasers is the same that we cant fit neutron and downgrade to ion/electron. And your dmg/s hasnt been altered, our dmg/s hasnt been altered so you STILL do more dgm/s than us from: 14 k range or put those ubercrystals in from 45!! k range. /emote loads up the null ammo sweet! 40 k optimal..or not. LOL @ your need to fit CPU hahaha i allways have a standard cpu-upgrade in my setup, only bs that didnt have one was the vindicator, because i had that faction pimped. And you whine @ the dominix, just nerf ecm than, problem fixed... Hmm I never said that the mega shouldn't get any buffs. I said that you guys whine because your ship is hard to fit, ours are hard to fit ASWELL. It was easy to pwn a blasterthron before stacking nerf with a noob geddon. Now its NOT. Scorch is sweet, but you lose % of damage and some % gets converted into EM, which is bull**** because everyone is fitting EANM T2's. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to nerf the mega, I want to get amarr boosted.
Selim
Posted - 2006.05.29 14:09:00 -
[78 ]
I actually think its pretty cool that some amarr ships can fit projectiles and actually do pretty well. Sometimes I get sick of being only able to fit hybrids on gallente due to damage, or proj on minmatar, for example. Using other race guns is fun tbh. Now, back to your whinefest.
Denrace
Posted - 2006.05.29 14:16:00 -
[79 ]
When I first began playing (getting closer to 2 years now), the Amarr were always said to be loved by the devs. "Amarr FTW!" everyone cried. And, indeed, Amarr were truly great. Tanks from hell, and those thunderous lasers echoing from system to system. Sadly, no more are Amarr the barers of an epic powerhouse of a fleet. Instead, we are stuck with lasers. Lasers that are quickly becoming the WORST weapon in the EVE universe. We have 1 less frigate than everyone else, we have the ineffective combination of EM?Thermal damage, and we share the fate of Caldari and some Minnie ships and have horribly small drone bays. We also have ships that are completely ineffective against all Minmatar ships. Give Amarr a little love. You know you want to Den ________________________________________
madaluap
Posted - 2006.05.29 14:43:00 -
[80 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 29/05/2006 14:44:24 Originally by: DanMck Edited by: DanMck on 29/05/2006 14:07:04 also when you see a target and he docks , after spotting your amarr ship what does he do ? goes and fits something to increase his em and theratic resists , so he is twice as hard to kill and i can't blame them as i would do it aswell we need to be able to vary the damage output so we can be more difficult to predict don't need to hit harder just hit with kin or exp also as stated before , try fitting beams on a small ship , it's near impossible , even on larger ships it's hard also we need an additonal skill that when at lvl 5 it's like having a cpr fitted (keep the shield penalty) we need a change to stop an imbalance .... not to create one as it's a about to happen , because i will be switching to uber tank and guns that use no cap , espically on the apoc /signed but only if gallente hit with explosive aswell..its just bull****, i have foughten geddons and some people had that ship tanked well combined with injectors and lasers with great optimal. IT pwns. Ammar is still the same tanking beast, i see no reason for a boost. Blasterthron vs a apoc and the apoc wins, because it has more cap, more optimal and more repairpower. It will outlast the mega... Everyone got there boost and now ammar want a boost aswell, no because ammar was allready the highest on the foodchain. Now you are "just" on par. and buhu to the i need 2X rcu 2 to fit the biggest guns of ammar on a tier 1 ship. You do realise that on a railthron i have enough space left to fit 2-3 stabs easily..only thing you guys need to do is lose 1 stab and because of the extra low you actually on have to fit 1 rcu2, compared to mega. so you end up with 2 stabs and a decent sniping setup, featuring the largest guns. Now try to fit 1400 2 on a tempest, now you can cry about not having enough lowslots... /edit: i can agree on stuff like medium pulse lasers/beam should take less PG, but this kind of whining is retarded. _________________________________________________
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.05.29 14:46:00 -
[81 ]
Edited by: Deathbarrage on 29/05/2006 14:48:20 Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 29/05/2006 14:44:24 Originally by: DanMck Edited by: DanMck on 29/05/2006 14:07:04 also when you see a target and he docks , after spotting your amarr ship what does he do ? goes and fits something to increase his em and theratic resists , so he is twice as hard to kill and i can't blame them as i would do it aswell we need to be able to vary the damage output so we can be more difficult to predict don't need to hit harder just hit with kin or exp also as stated before , try fitting beams on a small ship , it's near impossible , even on larger ships it's hard also we need an additonal skill that when at lvl 5 it's like having a cpr fitted (keep the shield penalty) we need a change to stop an imbalance .... not to create one as it's a about to happen , because i will be switching to uber tank and guns that use no cap , espically on the apoc /signed but only if gallente hit with explosive aswell..its just bull****, i have foughten geddons and some people had that ship tanked well combined with injectors and lasers with great optimal. IT pwns. Ammar is still the same tanking beast, i see no reason for a boost. Blasterthron vs a apoc and the apoc wins, because it has more cap, more optimal and more repairpower. It will outlast the mega... Everyone got there boost and now ammar want a boost aswell, no because ammar was allready the highest on the foodchain. Now you are "just" on par. and buhu to the i need 2X rcu 2 to fit the biggest guns of ammar on a tier 1 ship. You do realise that on a railthron i have enough space left to fit 2-3 stabs easily..only thing you guys need to do is lose 1 stab and because of the extra low you actually on have to fit 1 rcu2, compared to mega. so you end up with 2 stabs and a decent sniping setup, featuring the largest guns. Now try to fit 1400 2 on a tempest, now you can cry about not having enough lowslots... /edit: i can agree on stuff like medium pulse lasers/beam should take less PG, but this kind of whining is retarded. if your mega loses vs an apoc you honestly can't fit a mega since a geddon pwns an apoc and a mega pwns a geddon most BS in this game fly with a tank of something like: 2x EANM II 1x DCU that's 81-82% EM if I'm correct that's our primary dmg type done btw it'd be more then logical if the EM was switched to kinetic, physics-wise edit: mega can fit full rack of 425mm without fitting mods, apoc can't fit full rack of tachyons without fitting mods
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 14:50:00 -
[82 ]
If I ignore this thred, will it go away? There's nothing wrong with lasers at all. The ships that fit lasers could use some touch-up in certain areas, though. (i.e. all those stats that don't give you more DPS but makes the ship easier to fly - the balance is that close) Oh, and the geddon isn't a 1v1 ship. Period. No point comparing to Megathron or Dominix.New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.05.29 14:56:00 -
[83 ]
Originally by: Ithildin Oh, and the geddon isn't a 1v1 ship. Period. No point comparing to Megathron or Dominix. Out of curiosity, what would be your 1vs1 Amarr ship then, preferably bs-sized since that's what the latest posts are talking about? ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.05.29 15:05:00 -
[84 ]
Originally by: Ithildin If I ignore this thred, will it go away? There's nothing wrong with lasers at all. The ships that fit lasers could use some touch-up in certain areas, though. (i.e. all those stats that don't give you more DPS but makes the ship easier to fly - the balance is that close) Oh, and the geddon isn't a 1v1 ship. Period. No point comparing to Megathron or Dominix. Not really. Actually Ithildin you can look at it one of 2 ways. Either ships that fit lasers could use a touch up, or, the lasers themselves are too difficult to fit. I think it's a bit of both really. Some lasers, like the medium beam II's and Heavy Pulse II's are stupidly harder to fit than their racial counterparts. Some Amarr ships are MUCH harder to fit than thier racial counterparts. The Sader/Claw comparison or the Thrasher/Coercer are 2 that come to mind. Both sets of ships have the same or similar pg, yet one set of guns are MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to fit. Ruppie/Rax/Maller falls into this catagory, but are not exactly the same. The boosts to tanking have effectively nerfed Amarr as well. Common passive tanking adn dcu resists even on cruisers now puts EM at effective 70+ resists now. This hurts any Amarr ship at anything other than Multifreq/Conflag range. Part of the difficulty also lies in the fact that T2 Amarr long range crystals are EM based. If we had a midrange crystal (even if it didn't do omgexplosiveyarr damage) that was more than just EM as a damage type it would help. I am looking forward to your post Elve. Let me know if I can produce dps graphs, fitting comparisons, or anything else for you. Nyxus Once he presses "activate F1", Mr Titan is no longer your friend.
Morphee
Posted - 2006.05.29 15:46:00 -
[85 ]
Edited by: Morphee on 29/05/2006 15:47:07 Ok i'm Amarr and i still dmg is fine. First of all, just for the sake of concept, how do you explain a laser doing explosive dmg? It's particles, not a warhead. And 2 dmg type only hinder us in PvE vs angels, because in real pvp, usually all resists are 70+ high, and more than often Em is the less resisted on armor. Amarr have good looking ship and very nice tanking. They don't need to be the best. just my 2 isk anyways. Edit : posted with alt, i'm really ammar :). Sry for any typo, aint english
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.05.29 16:02:00 -
[86 ]
Originally by: Morphee Edited by: Morphee on 29/05/2006 15:47:07 Ok i'm Amarr and i still dmg is fine. First of all, just for the sake of concept, how do you explain a laser doing explosive dmg? It's particles, not a warhead. And 2 dmg type only hinder us in PvE vs angels, because in real pvp, usually all resists are 70+ high, and more than often Em is the less resisted on armor. Amarr have good looking ship and very nice tanking. They don't need to be the best. just my 2 isk anyways. Edit : posted with alt, i'm really ammar :). Sry for any typo, aint english in pvp with the passive hardeners EM is actually the highest (80%) and as for diff dmg types, explosive is BS but kinetic is more then realistic not that it has to be realistic since this is EVE where can actually control something the size of the moon with a mouse
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 16:24:00 -
[87 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Ithildin Oh, and the geddon isn't a 1v1 ship. Period. No point comparing to Megathron or Dominix. Out of curiosity, what would be your 1vs1 Amarr ship then, preferably bs-sized since that's what the latest posts are talking about? In my experience. None. And that's not needed, either. Of course, this isn't talking about ships that can do it, but talking about ships that excel in doing it. Gallente aren't (supposed to be) good fleet ships. Whatever. I trained them for that close lovin', and that's where Gallente are good. (Note how close range and 1v1 go hand in hand)New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Stamm
Posted - 2006.05.29 16:28:00 -
[88 ]
Originally by: Ithildin If I ignore this thred, will it go away? There's nothing wrong with lasers at all. The ships that fit lasers could use some touch-up in certain areas, though. (i.e. all those stats that don't give you more DPS but makes the ship easier to fly - the balance is that close) Oh, and the geddon isn't a 1v1 ship. Period. No point comparing to Megathron or Dominix. The problem with lasers, as demonstrated in another thread, is that even with the cap use bonus to them, they still are only comparible to other weapons. When you get a cap use bonus to lasers you should be using lasers because that makes them better than any other weapon. That isn't the case. Perhaps the bonus itself needs to be looked at - increased to 15%? Or maybe lasers in general need to have their cap use reduced. Either way when you have to fit at least 1 cap mod to use lasers, yet they don't do more damage than other weapons, something isn't right. For folks interest. No gatling beam : 2 PG - 75mm Gatling Rail I Dual light beam laser I - 7 PG : 7 PG - 125mm Railgun I Medium beam laser I - 16 PG : 10 PG - 150mm Railgun I Quad light beam laser I - 90 PG : 80 PG - Dual 150mm Railgun I Focused medium beam laser I - 150 PG : 180 PG - 200mm Railgun I Heavy beam laser I - 250 PG : 225 PG - 250mm Railgun I Dual heavy beam laser I - 1750 PG : 1250 PG - Dual 250mm Railgun I Mega beam laser I - 3250 PG : 1875 PG - 350mm Railgun I Tachyon beam laser I - 3750 PG : 2500 PG - 425mm Railgun I
Elve Sorrow
Posted - 2006.05.29 16:31:00 -
[89 ]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 29/05/2006 16:31:58 Originally by: Ithildin Gallente aren't (supposed to be) good fleet ships. Whatever. I trained them for that close lovin', and that's where Gallente are good. (Note how close range and 1v1 go hand in hand) Note how they are awesome fleet ships aswell though. Alot better then Apocs/Geddons. However, if you agree they're not supposed to be then im sure you agree with nerfing 425mm's back to the stoneage?
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 16:42:00 -
[90 ]
Stamm a few points: * Lasers use quite a bit less capacitor than hybrids. * Trade you laser tracking for hybrid tracking (I gain about 50-60% tracking, you lose about 33-35%) * Care to make an effort and jot down expected fitting percentages, instead? Just writing down comparative numbers is equal to trimming the numbers to make a point (i.e. lying). For example, 125mm Railgun takes estimated 16.47% powergrid (Incursus) while a Dual Light Beam takes 12.44% powergrid (Punisher) - which are in fact the relevant numbers. (used the numbers you wrote down) * Why didn't you write down the CPU usage? * Lasers do do more damage than other lasers if you compare the levels where they use more capacitor. That said, there are a few odd balls among lasers. In general, however, they are fine. Not particulary burdened by damage types (except proportions thereof!) having only one of the two worst in game (Kinetic and Thermal are the two most tanked on Battlecruisers and up, while indeed EM is the worst damage on frigates) Odd balls: Medium Beam and Tachyon. I haven't tried Heavy Pulse other than on a Zealot, which isn't the best ship for this sort of comparison given it's very favourable fitting in addition to it's very low number of hardpoints (which is compensated with extremely good bonuses).New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 16:45:00 -
[91 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 29/05/2006 16:31:58 Originally by: Ithildin Gallente aren't (supposed to be) good fleet ships. Whatever. I trained them for that close lovin', and that's where Gallente are good. (Note how close range and 1v1 go hand in hand) Note how they are awesome fleet ships aswell though. Alot better then Apocs/Geddons. However, if you agree they're not supposed to be then im sure you agree with nerfing 425mm's back to the stoneage? Doesn't need nerfing back to stone age. Needs a bit CPU versus PG tweaking. In essence, railguns need to take more CPU and perhaps a wee bit less PG. This makes it a slightly more attractive weapon for Caldari and a less attractive weapon for Gallente. Nerfing damage or powergrid or tracking would just be stupid.New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.05.29 16:50:00 -
[92 ]
Ok, let's put some things in perspective here. First, megapulses. The first person that dares to whine about megapulses again needs to be stoned to death by getting veldspar roids thrown at his face. Megapulses outrange other short range turrets, have the best relative tracking, and have the absolutely great bonus of their optimal range band being smack on top of the area where most non-fleet pvp takes place. Couple that with relatively decent fitting requirements and an armageddon with a damage bonus on otp of the built in damage bonus and you end up with a wtfpwn platform for short to medium range ganking. No other short range turret comes close to having the usability of the megapulse, period. Now, on the apoc, yeah, they suck a bit more. But that's the curse and boon of the amarr range at the same time (regarding BS sized vessels). Large lasers get great base damage, which is nor can be made lower then it currently is due to the apoc, that lacks any offensive bonus to compensate (altho 8 turrets make it a decent platform anyway), and is nor can be made higher due to the geddon, with it's high damage bonus on top of the high base damage, resulting in an omgwtfpwn platform for pure damage dealing. And pure damage simply is one of if not the most important factor in pvp overall. So, you can't get damage improvements to large lasers as a weapon class to make the apoc better on the offensive department because the geddon would become an obviously overpowered choice in general pvp. But, we can't really deal with the pulsegeddon or tachgeddon combinations as they are either atm, because bringing those more in line with reality would nerf the apoc. Hence, you need to look at the ships again. It's not like that's exactly what was said before the megapulse nerf already, but hey, CCP simply can't be bothered to do it right sometimes. In general however, I consider the apoc well balanced in fleet combat especially atm, and teh geddon somewhat overdone in the short-medium range non-fleet gang pvp at this time. So, I kind of disagree with the gist of the original post here. Amarr BS damage output is fine, amarr BS usability and diversity is fine. And no, a simple boost to damage or changing of damage types on crystals will not make for a better balance.Old blog
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.05.29 16:54:00 -
[93 ]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 29/05/2006 16:55:34 Oh, and ithildin, the fact you love disfunctional blasters so much doesn't justify you amking up all kidns of crap about how the gallente aren't supposed to be long range viable. They are. CCP only took a while to understand that limiting a race by combat range would lead to a fast death of their gameplay balance. Hence every race has long as well as short range abilities that are supposed to be slightly different, yet all in line with eachother. Blasters are ultra short, rails ultra long with nothing much in between. Lasers occupy the medium range up to bottom end of very long range. And projectiles have the nice ability to do it all, yet a bit less well overall because they'll be doing it in falloff most of the time. That's how it is, and how it's meant to be.Old blog
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.05.29 16:54:00 -
[94 ]
Originally by: Ithildin Stamm a few points: * Lasers use quite a bit less capacitor than hybrids. * Trade you laser tracking for hybrid tracking (I gain about 50-60% tracking, you lose about 33-35%) * Care to make an effort and jot down expected fitting percentages, instead? Just writing down comparative numbers is equal to trimming the numbers to make a point (i.e. lying). For example, 125mm Railgun takes estimated 16.47% powergrid (Incursus) while a Dual Light Beam takes 12.44% powergrid (Punisher) - which are in fact the relevant numbers. (used the numbers you wrote down) * Why didn't you write down the CPU usage? * Lasers do do more damage than other lasers if you compare the levels where they use more capacitor. That said, there are a few odd balls among lasers. In general, however, they are fine. Not particulary burdened by damage types (except proportions thereof!) having only one of the two worst in game (Kinetic and Thermal are the two most tanked on Battlecruisers and up, while indeed EM is the worst damage on frigates) Odd balls: Medium Beam and Tachyon. I haven't tried Heavy Pulse other than on a Zealot, which isn't the best ship for this sort of comparison given it's very favourable fitting in addition to it's very low number of hardpoints (which is compensated with extremely good bonuses). mega pulse: 40 energy with lvl 5 BS 20 energy Ion blaster II: 14 energy nuff said also dual light pulse isn't the equalivent of the 125mm railgun pulse=blasters beams=railguns don't start about tracking if you're comparing blasters to pulse lasers
Stamm
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:02:00 -
[95 ]
Originally by: Ithildin Stamm a few points: * Lasers use quite a bit less capacitor than hybrids. * Trade you laser tracking for hybrid tracking (I gain about 50-60% tracking, you lose about 33-35%) * Care to make an effort and jot down expected fitting percentages, instead? Just writing down comparative numbers is equal to trimming the numbers to make a point (i.e. lying). For example, 125mm Railgun takes estimated 16.47% powergrid (Incursus) while a Dual Light Beam takes 12.44% powergrid (Punisher) - which are in fact the relevant numbers. (used the numbers you wrote down) * Why didn't you write down the CPU usage? * Lasers do do more damage than other lasers if you compare the levels where they use more capacitor. That said, there are a few odd balls among lasers. In general, however, they are fine. Not particulary burdened by damage types (except proportions thereof!) having only one of the two worst in game (Kinetic and Thermal are the two most tanked on Battlecruisers and up, while indeed EM is the worst damage on frigates) Odd balls: Medium Beam and Tachyon. I haven't tried Heavy Pulse other than on a Zealot, which isn't the best ship for this sort of comparison given it's very favourable fitting in addition to it's very low number of hardpoints (which is compensated with extremely good bonuses). Sorry, I was just trying to display how the PG usage scaled over the size of the weapons. With lasers on small weapons it more than doubles. With large weapons the PG required is immense. With railguns it's more of a gradual progression. Also, when considering cap use, bear in mind the Apoc us using one of it's 2 bonuses to reduce that cap use to something that's _still_ a significant undertaking.
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:03:00 -
[96 ]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 29/05/2006 16:55:34 Oh, and ithildin, the fact you love disfunctional blasters so much doesn't justify you amking up all kidns of crap about how the gallente aren't supposed to be long range viable. They are. CCP only took a while to understand that limiting a race by combat range would lead to a fast death of their gameplay balance. Hence every race has long as well as short range abilities that are supposed to be slightly different, yet all in line with eachother. Bad choice of words. Was talking about extremes, not removing viability. In other words what I meant was "Megathron isn't supposed to be the best at long range", but I never meant to say that it shouldn't be a valid choice for long range. Problem with your second paragraph is that there's very little that can be different when it comes to long range (especially) when you've got four races that needs be different but still valid. For me it feels as if though lasers and railguns are very similar indeed, simply because you never use tracking on long range weapons and they have very similar dps and rather low volley damage, and that is wrong. Also, some of the people do have a point when they claim that Megathron is a wee bit too easy to fit for long range, since a Megathron can generally fit a plate or two where other ships need to fit RCU IIs.New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:03:00 -
[97 ]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 29/05/2006 17:04:03 Originally by: Deathbarrage mega pulse: 40 energy with lvl 5 BS 20 energy Ion blaster II: 14 energy nuff said also dual light pulse isn't the equalivent of the 125mm railgun pulse=blasters beams=railguns don't start about tracking if you're comparing blasters to pulse lasers Megapulse however is equivalent to neutrons, not ions. And you also need to take into account the base rof. And about tracking, comapre blasters to pulses yes, but corrected for range of course. Try it, and let me know what happens ok ? Don;t spout nonsense if you want to be taken seriously, thnx Quote: Also, when considering cap use, bear in mind the Apoc us using one of it's 2 bonuses to reduce that cap use to something that's _still_ a significant undertaking. Same goes for the mega and tracking, leaving its tracking still worse then that of beam lasers btw (at lvl 5 skill at that)....Old blog
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:06:00 -
[98 ]
That's a fair point. Altho I do think that the megathron isnt all that good at long range anyway. It's got nice dps, but the geddon has more and the apoc not that much less at that extreme range. Secondly, it's got the worst alpha strike by far, something that does count especially when numbers go up. Yes, it's easier to fit, but then again, that plate only put on the hp's the apoc already has doesn't it ?Old blog
Ganandorf
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:06:00 -
[99 ]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 29/05/2006 17:04:03 Originally by: Deathbarrage mega pulse: 40 energy with lvl 5 BS 20 energy Ion blaster II: 14 energy nuff said also dual light pulse isn't the equalivent of the 125mm railgun pulse=blasters beams=railguns don't start about tracking if you're comparing blasters to pulse lasers Megapulse however is equivalent to neutrons, not ions. And you also need to take into account the base rof. And about tracking, comapre blasters to pulses yes, but corrected for range of course. Try it, and let me know what happens ok ? Don;t spout nonsense if you want to be taken seriously, thnx Quote: Also, when considering cap use, bear in mind the Apoc us using one of it's 2 bonuses to reduce that cap use to something that's _still_ a significant undertaking. Same goes for the mega and tracking, leaving its tracking still worse then that of beam lasers btw (at lvl 5 skill at that).... it's the equalivent of neutrons? then plz show me the pulse equalevent of ions tachyons are the ''neutrons'' of amarr, mega beam are the equalivents of 425mm
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:12:00 -
[100 ]
Edited by: Ithildin on 29/05/2006 17:12:36 Originally by: Ganandorf it's the equalivent of neutrons? then plz show me the pulse equalevent of ions tachyons are the ''neutrons'' of amarr, mega beam are the equalivents of 425mmTuxford dps linkage if you also take into account scaling on range and it should be apparent that Neutrons and Megapulse are the same. The thing is lasers lost their smallest pulse laser somewhere between frigate and cruiser lasers. You're missing a Quad Gatling Pulse Laser and a Quad Medium Pulse Laser. (Names chosen for effect)New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:13:00 -
[101 ]
Originally by: Ganandorf it's the equalivent of neutrons? then plz show me the pulse equalevent of ions tachyons are the ''neutrons'' of amarr, mega beam are the equalivents of 425mm Lasers have no electrons. ion = dual heavy pulse neutron = mega pulse At least, unless you would really want to equate megapulses to ions, in which case a nerf to megapulses is unavoidable imo, since they do way too much damage seeing their much increased usability in the short range role wihtin pvp.Old blog
Stamm
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:15:00 -
[102 ]
Originally by: Ithildin Edited by: Ithildin on 29/05/2006 17:12:36 Originally by: Ganandorf it's the equalivent of neutrons? then plz show me the pulse equalevent of ions tachyons are the ''neutrons'' of amarr, mega beam are the equalivents of 425mmTuxford dps linkage if you also take into account scaling on range and it should be apparent that Neutrons and Megapulse are the same. The thing is lasers lost their smallest pulse laser somewhere between frigate and cruiser lasers. You're missing a Quad Gatling Pulse Laser and a Quad Medium Pulse Laser. (Names chosen for effect) Does that take into account the extra damage mod the gallente can fit where the Amarr has to fit a cap mod?
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:19:00 -
[103 ]
Originally by: Stamm Originally by: Ithildin Edited by: Ithildin on 29/05/2006 17:12:36 Originally by: Ganandorf it's the equalivent of neutrons? then plz show me the pulse equalevent of ions tachyons are the ''neutrons'' of amarr, mega beam are the equalivents of 425mmTuxford dps linkage if you also take into account scaling on range and it should be apparent that Neutrons and Megapulse are the same. The thing is lasers lost their smallest pulse laser somewhere between frigate and cruiser lasers. You're missing a Quad Gatling Pulse Laser and a Quad Medium Pulse Laser. (Names chosen for effect) Does that take into account the extra damage mod the gallente can fit where the Amarr has to fit a cap mod? and since when does a raven do more dps then anything?
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:19:00 -
[104 ]
Originally by: Stamm Originally by: Ithildin Edited by: Ithildin on 29/05/2006 17:12:36 Originally by: Ganandorf it's the equalivent of neutrons? then plz show me the pulse equalevent of ions tachyons are the ''neutrons'' of amarr, mega beam are the equalivents of 425mmTuxford dps linkage if you also take into account scaling on range and it should be apparent that Neutrons and Megapulse are the same. The thing is lasers lost their smallest pulse laser somewhere between frigate and cruiser lasers. You're missing a Quad Gatling Pulse Laser and a Quad Medium Pulse Laser. (Names chosen for effect) Does that take into account the extra damage mod the gallente can fit where the Amarr has to fit a cap mod? How so ? The amarr have better cap yet use about the same cap/sec using these guns. Armageddon excepted, but then again, that one does better damage and thus pays the penalty of using mroe cap. Something that doesn't need a cap mod at all btw.Old blog
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:19:00 -
[105 ]
Edited by: Ithildin on 29/05/2006 17:20:11 Originally by: Stamm Originally by: Ithildin Edited by: Ithildin on 29/05/2006 17:12:36 Originally by: Ganandorf it's the equalivent of neutrons? then plz show me the pulse equalevent of ions tachyons are the ''neutrons'' of amarr, mega beam are the equalivents of 425mmTuxford dps linkage if you also take into account scaling on range and it should be apparent that Neutrons and Megapulse are the same. The thing is lasers lost their smallest pulse laser somewhere between frigate and cruiser lasers. You're missing a Quad Gatling Pulse Laser and a Quad Medium Pulse Laser. (Names chosen for effect) Does that take into account the extra damage mod the gallente can fit where the Amarr has to fit a cap mod? The cap usage is neglibly close (3.2 versus 3.9 per second with advantage hybrids*), but you don't need a cap module any more than a Gallente or Caldari ship needs a cargo expander to fit ammo. Fights don't last that long, and besides this the Amarrian capacitors are large enough to compensate. * Taking into account comparable damage weapons rather than ranged weapons. (i.e. Mega Pulse and 425mm) Tachyons are actually supposed to be oversized turrets originally.New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:21:00 -
[106 ]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Originally by: Stamm Originally by: Ithildin Edited by: Ithildin on 29/05/2006 17:12:36 Originally by: Ganandorf it's the equalivent of neutrons? then plz show me the pulse equalevent of ions tachyons are the ''neutrons'' of amarr, mega beam are the equalivents of 425mmTuxford dps linkage if you also take into account scaling on range and it should be apparent that Neutrons and Megapulse are the same. The thing is lasers lost their smallest pulse laser somewhere between frigate and cruiser lasers. You're missing a Quad Gatling Pulse Laser and a Quad Medium Pulse Laser. (Names chosen for effect) Does that take into account the extra damage mod the gallente can fit where the Amarr has to fit a cap mod? How so ? The amarr have better cap yet use about the same cap/sec using these guns. Armageddon excepted, but then again, that one does better damage and thus pays the penalty of using mroe cap. Something that doesn't need a cap mod at all btw. and if we're gonna get to the subject: Blasterthron will vastly outdamage a geddon while maybe even tanking it due to its 80% EM resists cuz it can still fit a tank while fitting ions (please explain the DPS if DHP are the equalivent of ions)
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:21:00 -
[107 ]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 29/05/2006 17:24:20 Old graph, form the megapulse change i think, before the missile changes. Know your history Old blog
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:22:00 -
[108 ]
Originally by: Deathbarrage and since when does a raven do more dps then anything? Since people started orbitting, which ironically they don't. That's a graph that takes tracking into account.New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:26:00 -
[109 ]
Originally by: Deathbarrage (please explain the DPS if DHP are the equalivent of ions) They aren't equivalent. Pulse turrets operate at medium range, where only missiles operate effectively. For those who play golf, it's like comparing a five iron to a five wood. Both have the same numbers, but they sure as hell aren't used in the same way.New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:31:00 -
[110 ]
Originally by: Deathbarrage and if we're gonna get to the subject: Blasterthron will vastly outdamage a geddon while maybe even tanking it due to its 80% EM resists cuz it can still fit a tank while fitting ions (please explain the DPS if DHP are the equalivent of ions) K, one more then. ION versus DHP damage. Yes Ion damage on the mega will be a reasonable amount higher then the DHP damage on teh geddon. On the toher hand, DHP range on that geddon is 2 to 3 times the trange of those ions. And no, the mega can't fit a decent tank due to needing both MWD and cap injector as well as damage mods to make sure it has real good dps to make up for the damage alreayd taken in transit to the target, all issues that geddon does not have to deal with. On top of that, that geddon can engage on target 15km to one side, and another 15km to the other right after eachother, without having to move to get ito range. The mega however, would have to MWD 15 one way, web scram kill one target (while still within range of both enemies and thus taking fire), mwd 30km back towards the other (assuming it is nice enough to wait for the mega to mwd over and doesn't warp or open up distance), then again web, scram, kill while taking fire since the start of the engagement. And better still, that whole fight only happens if the mega is lucky enough to land within 15 km of its targets as well, and more and it's kinda useless to even start the whole battle. DHP's lose *some* damage, and gain tracking, cap use, fitting ability, range, and an enormous increase in general versatility outside of 1v1's. Hey, I know why I'm training up my new char as amarr specialist. Did you choose to make yours a blaster pilot ?Old blog
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:31:00 -
[111 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 29/05/2006 17:31:11 Originally by: Ithildin Stamm a few points: * Lasers use quite a bit less capacitor than hybrids. Not really, see below. Quote: * Care to make an effort and jot down expected fitting percentages, instead? Just writing down comparative numbers is equal to trimming the numbers to make a point (i.e. lying). For example, 125mm Railgun takes estimated 16.47% powergrid (Incursus) while a Dual Light Beam takes 12.44% powergrid (Punisher) - which are in fact the relevant numbers. (used the numbers you wrote down) Doing invalid comparisions is just the same thing for "trimming the numbers". Firstly, you are comparing the 2nd strongest Gallente and the strongest Amarr frig. You might as well compare the Dominix to the Apocalypse, it's not a valid comparsion. You have to use firgs of the same tier, 3-2 vs 3-2 and not 3-1 vs 3-2. Tristan vs Punisher. Secondly, you pick just the weapons which suit your argument - take the 150mm Rail vs Medium Beam Laser. The Dual Light and the 125mm seem on the first view to be equal - but they aren't. You forget that gallente frigs have hybrid damage boni but amarr frigs have no laser damage bonus. The Medium Beam 1 is 3x every 4s, aka 0.75 damagemod/second. The 150 rail is 2.75*1.2 (lvl 4 frig skill) every 4.25, aka 0.78 dm/sec. If you take into account that multispectral does a tiny bit more average damage than antimatter the effective damage of both these weapons is basically identical. To complete this, 150 mm needs 0.8 cap/sec and the medium beam 1.1 cap/sec with frig 4 (what was that with lasers need less cap?). To compare, the 125mm is 0.74 dm/sec (with frig 4) and dual light 0.63 dm/sec. Dual light is clearly worse here. Comparing it with the 125 gives you wrong results. So, Medium Beam is 28.4% of the Punishers grid and the 150mm 21.1% of the Tristans (and 23.5% of the Incursus) grid...
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:40:00 -
[112 ]
Dear knuckle heads and anti-amarr. 1)First of all learn to spell Amarr and then post. 2)Lasers are beam or pulses of artificially stimulated light. Light is composed of photons which are a pure form of energy. Photons can do ALL types of damage: it’s just a matter of energy intensity and frequency . If u can’t understand read a physics book. 3)Amarr ships are underpowered. And don’t start whining whit boohoo Zealot or Absolution. We have just 1 damage or resistance bonus and lasers just don’t have the power. Boosting lasers will be an act of balance. I use beam lasers and all of them except tachyon suck big time. Just for decent range and tracking u need a carload of weapon upgrades. 4)SHUT UP. You all had your love we had NONE. And that just because we play the game , we don’t whine all day long.
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 17:47:00 -
[113 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 29/05/2006 17:31:11 Originally by: Ithildin Stamm a few points: * Lasers use quite a bit less capacitor than hybrids. Not really, see below. Quote: * Care to make an effort and jot down expected fitting percentages, instead? Just writing down comparative numbers is equal to trimming the numbers to make a point (i.e. lying). For example, 125mm Railgun takes estimated 16.47% powergrid (Incursus) while a Dual Light Beam takes 12.44% powergrid (Punisher) - which are in fact the relevant numbers. (used the numbers you wrote down) Doing invalid comparisions is just the same thing for "trimming the numbers". Firstly, you are comparing the 2nd strongest Gallente and the strongest Amarr frig. You might as well compare the Dominix to the Apocalypse, it's not a valid comparsion. You have to use firgs of the same tier, 3-2 vs 3-2 and not 3-1 vs 3-2. Tristan vs Punisher. Secondly, you pick just the weapons which suit your argument - take the 150mm Rail vs Medium Beam Laser. The Dual Light and the 125mm seem on the first view to be equal - but they aren't. You forget that gallente frigs have hybrid damage boni but amarr frigs have no laser damage bonus. The Medium Beam 1 is 3x every 4s, aka 0.75 damagemod/second. The 150 rail is 2.75*1.2 (lvl 4 frig skill) every 4.25, aka 0.78 dm/sec. If you take into account that multispectral does a tiny bit more average damage than antimatter the effective damage of both these weapons is basically identical. To complete this, 150 mm needs 0.8 cap/sec and the medium beam 1.1 cap/sec with frig 4 (what was that with lasers need less cap?). To compare, the 125mm is 0.74 dm/sec (with frig 4) and dual light 0.63 dm/sec. Dual light is clearly worse here. Comparing it with the 125 gives you wrong results. So, Medium Beam is 28.4% of the Punishers grid and the 150mm 21.1% of the Tristans (and 23.5% of the Incursus) grid... @ Cap use: After checking a bit closer I found that what I wrote is only true on blaster versus pulse, but untrue with railgun versus beams. @ "Invalid compares": It is not invalid when comparing top tiered turret ships. Tristan is not comparable to a Punisher while an Incursus is. As for "weapon that suits me" I am offended you didn't read it all - I have seen no one claiming that Medium Pulse lasers are actually sane in their fittings. Please don't assume I am writing argumentations I am not.New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 18:01:00 -
[114 ]
Edited by: Ithildin on 29/05/2006 18:01:47 Originally by: General Apocalypse Dear knuckle heads and anti-amarr. 1)First of all learn to spell Amarr and then post. 2)Lasers are beam or pulses of artificially stimulated light. Light is composed of photons which are a pure form of energy. Photons can do ALL types of damage: itÆs just a matter of energy intensity and frequency . If u canÆt understand read a physics book. 3)Amarr ships are underpowered. And donÆt start whining whit boohoo Zealot or Absolution. We have just 1 damage or resistance bonus and lasers just donÆt have the power. Boosting lasers will be an act of balance. I use beam lasers and all of them except tachyon suck big time. Just for decent range and tracking u need a carload of weapon upgrades. 4)SHUT UP. You all had your love we had NONE. And that just because we play the game , we donÆt whine all day long. 1. I can spell Amarr, so I get to post. I wish that was a requirement, to be able to spell races names you were arguing for/against. Gallente threds would be sooo much calmer. 2. Stop doing semantics and RL comparisons. 3. Statement, not fact. You tend to lack damage mods because of an already good damage. Also, if you need carloads of weapon upgrades to get your tracking up, then it's impossible to track anything on hybrids, let alone projectiles. 4. Want to ask a blaster dedicated pilot how much love he got (compared to the others) between release and 2006? Now stop whining. I had enough of Amarrian whining back in summer of 2004. And yes, I wrote that because you did a gross generalization about a very large group of people. P.S. I fly Amarr ships, too, you know.New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.05.29 18:02:00 -
[115 ]
Originally by: General Apocalypse Dear knuckle heads and anti-amarr. 1)First of all learn to spell Amarr and then post. 2)Lasers are beam or pulses of artificially stimulated light. Light is composed of photons which are a pure form of energy. Photons can do ALL types of damage: itÆs just a matter of energy intensity and frequency . If u canÆt understand read a physics book. 3)Amarr ships are underpowered. And donÆt start whining whit boohoo Zealot or Absolution. We have just 1 damage or resistance bonus and lasers just donÆt have the power. Boosting lasers will be an act of balance. I use beam lasers and all of them except tachyon suck big time. Just for decent range and tracking u need a carload of weapon upgrades. 4)SHUT UP. You all had your love we had NONE. And that just because we play the game , we donÆt whine all day long. actually the reason why lasers can do all types of damage eludes me completely photons cause cause a thermic reaction and due to the heat atoms start moving(kinetic) that's as far as I'll get
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.29 18:04:00 -
[116 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 29/05/2006 18:05:10 Originally by: Ithildin @ "Invalid compares": It is not invalid when comparing top tiered turret ships. Tristan is not comparable to a Punisher while an Incursus is. Exept for frigs the "top tier" is occupied by 2 frigs, a lower tier 3 (3-1) and a higher tier 3 (3-2). You have to compare 3-2 vs 3-2 and not 3-1 vs 3-2. The 3-1 frigs are weaker in their grid than the 3-2 frigs, comparing the grid of a 3-1 to a 3-2 does *of cource* favour the 3.2 Claiming both are equal is flat out "lying". Quote: As for "weapon that suits me" I am offended you didn't read it all - I have seen no one claiming that Medium Pulse lasers are actually sane in their fittings. Please don't assume I am writing argumentations I am not. *Blink* You actualyl read what I wrote? Again, with the frig boni the 125 does MORE damage/sec than the dual light. Considerably more, 0.74 dm/sec with frig 4 for the 125 rail and 0.63 dm/sec for the dual light. Doing a comparsion between weapons powergridneed but completely ignoring/not saying that those 2 weapons do not deal the same amount of damage is, again, "trimming the numbers".
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.05.29 18:33:00 -
[117 ]
Oh stop it already. EVE is on macro level, not molecular level. Does the armour need to be hardened against solid objects hitting it at high speeds (kinetic) or does it need to dissipate heat rapidly (thermic)? Does it need to protect key electronic circuits (EM) or does it need to... well explosive damage is more like kinetic damage in my book, but...New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Dragy
Posted - 2006.05.29 18:38:00 -
[118 ]
OK, I read about amarr, and thats a lie (first post). Geddon now can get hell good dmg and with nice tank. 550 dps with guns (not to mention drones) + tank with 4 hardeners and 1 rep.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.29 18:41:00 -
[119 ]
The thing is that people argue with physics for/against kinetic and explosive damage from laser. And, in fact, lasers *do* have in reality a small explosive (expanding vaporzied material) and very very small kinetic (photons have a mass, therefore they have to deal some kinetic damage on impact, too) energy. But none, zero, zip, zilch electromagnetic energy, which is in the end strong magnetic fields. Which lasers do not have *at all*.
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.05.29 20:01:00 -
[120 ]
Edited by: Rockbox on 29/05/2006 20:03:52 Edited by: Rockbox on 29/05/2006 20:03:33 Ive been harping on this for a while, Amarr needs too be boosted, it has been left in the dust. My triple armor rep triple hardened Apoc cant tank a well fitted blasterthron and my geddon cant kill one fast enough before it gets in range and kills me.... wtf? Ok I have the solution, its time for what little dedicated Amarr players there are to start forum *****ing and whineing excessivly, infact somone start a couple more threads about boosting amarr even though this one is already off to a good start... that should get us some recognition...it obviously has worked before Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Salami Swami
Posted - 2006.05.29 20:41:00 -
[121 ]
a big anti-Amarr arguement seems to be based around the Geddon having a longer range... it seems iregardless either the Blasterboat or Autocannon ship makes it into their optimal an d wastes the Geddon as it wont have a tank... 1 LAR II, 1 PDU or RCU, 2 Tracking enhancer II, 4 Heat sink II where is the tank?!? Also if you continue to classify the Geddon as a mid range ship and say thats why it cant equal the damage delt by the Mega because its a short range ship (which may be true) then I have to ask you... where is Amarr's short range high damage ship? Every time the Geddon will be used as such (short range high damage) and thrown into situations it cannot contend in quite often if you are correct in your critque
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.05.29 21:21:00 -
[122 ]
I just want a crystal that does some damage other damage than Em and them. Tanking changes and passive resist improvements make it hard to do our damage that everyone keeps calling great..... to get great damage you must screw up your tank, how many of you have actually flown a geddon,apoc, or maller lately? Don't make it a long range crystal, then you don't have to worry about mega beam and 425mm rails that I keep reading about, over and over and over. Stop already! Mega beams and large rails and fleet battles are part of eve but not the only part. Em resists are common and because of that our real-life damage output doesn't often match your nice calculations. You don't have to make the explosive or kinetic crystal long range or very high damage output, just give us a choice so we aren't so stuck with EM and Thermal. Just give the Amarr a new balanced option at mid and low ranges... it wouldn't take much.
boost lasers
Posted - 2006.05.29 21:29:00 -
[123 ]
Originally by: General Apocalypse Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: General Apocalypse Dear knuckle heads and anti-amarr. 1)First of all learn to spell Amarr and then post. 2)Lasers are beam or pulses of artificially stimulated light. Light is composed of photons which are a pure form of energy. Photons can do ALL types of damage: itÆs just a matter of energy intensity and frequency . If u canÆt understand read a physics book. 3)Amarr ships are underpowered. And donÆt start whining whit boohoo Zealot or Absolution. We have just 1 damage or resistance bonus and lasers just donÆt have the power. Boosting lasers will be an act of balance. I use beam lasers and all of them except tachyon suck big time. Just for decent range and tracking u need a carload of weapon upgrades. 4)SHUT UP. You all had your love we had NONE. And that just because we play the game , we donÆt whine all day long. actually the reason why lasers can do all types of damage eludes me completely photons cause cause a thermic reaction and due to the heat atoms start moving(kinetic) that's as far as I'll get Kinertik : Evrey thing in the universe has it's own mass. photons included. Use a high intensity beam or pulse photons and u get pressure on the spot where the beam is projected = kintyk dmg. If someone whant's more detalied explanations convo me in game Explosive : The heat caused by a laser causes materials to melt. Heat the molten material even further and it will boil ad even more heat it will evaporate but at 0 G it can't evaporate. So as the heat builds up the molecules tend to reach higher speeds. The iner forces will eventulay rip apart the molted material. This all hapends in less the a sec so the phenomenon is posible. Your broken science makes me cry Why can't we get guys like Ithildin on our side ____________________________________________________ __
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.05.29 21:51:00 -
[124 ]
Originally by: Ithildin 3. Statement, not fact. You tend to lack damage mods because of an already good damage. I was reading through this thread when I read this. How many times do we have to tell you that lasers only do thermal and em? And whats the highest armour resistance most ships have? Im going to continue reading through this thread now, I hope you wont let me down.
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.05.29 22:33:00 -
[125 ]
Edited by: Rockbox on 29/05/2006 22:34:43 Originally by: Godar Marak And whats the highest armour resistance most ships have? Oh oh I know! its Explosive and Kinetic! Did I mention we should boost blasters they are waaaaaaaay under damaging and I should be able to run a Dual rep T2 tank on a T2 Neutron fitted blasterthron! On a more serious note, I think it would be awsome if a dev could pop in and at least acknowledge this threads existance :DNova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.30 00:59:00 -
[126 ]
i just want the Amarr ships to be able to compete on a level playingfield in the shortgame where atm a Apoc with 800mm projectile do more dmg and tank better then a Apoc with Megapulses. and still its not near the dmg output of a Raven/Domi/Mega at closerange with equal tanking abilities. give Amarr some lub pls Tux, it needs it. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Sniser
Posted - 2006.05.30 02:04:00 -
[127 ]
if em armor tanking is the problem then why not simple do conflagration ammo do 3/4 thermal and 1/4 em? also lowering a bit powergrid from their weapons?
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.30 03:29:00 -
[128 ]
Originally by: Sniser if em armor tanking is the problem then why not simple do conflagration ammo do 3/4 thermal and 1/4 em? also lowering a bit powergrid from their weapons? its not just armor tanking that is the problem. the other races can do more dmg and tank at close range while amarr cant do either satisfactory enough to be on par. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Lucian Alucard
Posted - 2006.05.30 04:12:00 -
[129 ]
First off, give us back our old radio crystals,second a 25% damage to them and center that towards thermal.
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.30 04:50:00 -
[130 ]
no-no, amarr ships are fine for long range but its atm a one trick horse wich is only good at range with both BS. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Ganandorf
Posted - 2006.05.30 05:44:00 -
[131 ]
i suppose if you see geddon as the uber dmg dealer, the only range where conflag crystals are useful is also within the range any b-thron will wtfbbqpwn you also note the b-thron doing 900DPS from guns alone with a dual large repped tank
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.30 06:45:00 -
[132 ]
Originally by: Ganandorf i suppose if you see geddon as the uber dmg dealer, the only range where conflag crystals are useful is also within the range any b-thron will wtfbbqpwn you also note the b-thron doing 900DPS from guns alone with a dual large repped tank add T2 drones to the equation and its silly compared to the geddon wich cant fit a tank to get close to that. not to mention the apoc wich will need to his "MINMATAR" guns to do any respectable dmg at all close range. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.05.30 07:54:00 -
[133 ]
I fail to see how the devs has failed completly to realise this.
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.30 07:57:00 -
[134 ]
I don't see the point of the "gallente-whiners" in this thread. Their dominix is simply on a killing spree and OMGWTFOVERPOWDERED. Megathron gets boosts here and there. Geddon gets pwnd by mega+domi. Apoc has slight chances with neuts+nos/ecm. You guys also have the best hac. Taranis after drone-boost is awesome aswell and kills everything if plated/dmg control. You say amarr are fleetships? AND WHY DO WE NEED 2x RCU t2 TO FIT TACHS? You fit your 425t2's without 1 RCU my friends, I say you have the fleet ship! You say stuff like "Mega pulse is very good!" and the geddon still gets slaughtered by a blastermega ... The only section where amarr are nicer than gallente is in the recon section IMO. Curse + pilgrim ftw However, I don't see any boosts coming for the closerange amarr anway. Hope the abaddon solves this with some nasty nos + drone bonus
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.05.30 08:27:00 -
[135 ]
If the Abbadon turns out to be that awsome, can you imagine the huge mass of Gallente and Caldari whiners that are gonna scream bloody murder for a nerf Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.30 08:34:00 -
[136 ]
Originally by: Rockbox If the Abbadon turns out to be that awsome, can you imagine the huge mass of Gallente and Caldari whiners that are gonna scream bloody murder for a nerf It doesn't need a nos bonus at all, just MASS grid and the arbitrator drone bonus together with a nice dronebay Oh they would cryyyyyyy
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.30 08:38:00 -
[137 ]
abbadon is still months away. so to take a ship we have no clue about into consideration is not right. this is here and now. Devs have done a great job at boosting every other race in some way and by doing so they have pushed the amarr ships out the door. i dont think that the Devs had any consideration on how all their changes would affect the amarr ships. to me it just looks like they dont care about balance and only cater to those who whine the most. if so its time for all who drive amarr ships to constantly whine 24/7 on these forums until we get something that resembles balance. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Nadec Ascand
Posted - 2006.05.30 08:46:00 -
[138 ]
Originally by: Tassi I don't see the point of the "gallente-whiners" in this thread. Their dominix is simply on a killing spree and OMGWTFOVERPOWDERED. Megathron gets boosts here and there. Geddon gets pwnd by mega+domi. Apoc has slight chances with neuts+nos/ecm. You guys also have the best hac. Taranis after drone-boost is awesome aswell and kills everything if plated/dmg control. You say amarr are fleetships? AND WHY DO WE NEED 2x RCU t2 TO FIT TACHS? You fit your 425t2's without 1 RCU my friends, I say you have the fleet ship! You say stuff like "Mega pulse is very good!" and the geddon still gets slaughtered by a blastermega ... The only section where amarr are nicer than gallente is in the recon section IMO. Curse + pilgrim ftw However, I don't see any boosts coming for the closerange amarr anway. Hope the abaddon solves this with some nasty nos + drone bonus hum Tryingg ot fit a meg with 425 T2 ok with max skill this leave me 2100PG and 280 CPU. put a Large armor rep and there is 100PG and 233 cpu left... Yeah Thats what i call so much PG... WE FIT 7 GUNS U FIT 8 so yeah we use less PG stop complaining bout this. With 8 tachyon 2 3dmg mod and Gleam u get 712.322 dps... With 7 425 rail 3dmg mod and i would get 645.643 AND This is with BS 5 spe 4 all gunnery 5. should i remind the 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage per bs lvl for gallente... with BS 1 megatron do 542.338 dps when appoc dont dmg dont change. It has always been like this megatron is a high end BS u need more skill for it to be effective. its hard to fit a BS yeah. For the Blasteron POWN evrything do you really think combat always engage with max cap at 10km? put 4 nos on a poc you will pown any blasteron... They to much revelant of capacitor. Evry ship have his weakness just try to think why bonus are for...
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.30 09:01:00 -
[139 ]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand Originally by: Tassi I don't see the point of the "gallente-whiners" in this thread. Their dominix is simply on a killing spree and OMGWTFOVERPOWDERED. Megathron gets boosts here and there. Geddon gets pwnd by mega+domi. Apoc has slight chances with neuts+nos/ecm. You guys also have the best hac. Taranis after drone-boost is awesome aswell and kills everything if plated/dmg control. You say amarr are fleetships? AND WHY DO WE NEED 2x RCU t2 TO FIT TACHS? You fit your 425t2's without 1 RCU my friends, I say you have the fleet ship! You say stuff like "Mega pulse is very good!" and the geddon still gets slaughtered by a blastermega ... The only section where amarr are nicer than gallente is in the recon section IMO. Curse + pilgrim ftw However, I don't see any boosts coming for the closerange amarr anway. Hope the abaddon solves this with some nasty nos + drone bonus hum Tryingg ot fit a meg with 425 T2 ok with max skill this leave me 2100PG and 280 CPU. put a Large armor rep and there is 100PG and 233 cpu left... Yeah Thats what i call so much PG... WE FIT 7 GUNS U FIT 8 so yeah we use less PG stop complaining bout this. With 8 tachyon 2 3dmg mod and Gleam u get 712.322 dps... With 7 425 rail 3dmg mod and i would get 645.643 AND This is with BS 5 spe 4 all gunnery 5. should i remind the 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage per bs lvl for gallente... with BS 1 megatron do 542.338 dps when appoc dont dmg dont change. It has always been like this megatron is a high end BS u need more skill for it to be effective. its hard to fit a BS yeah. For the Blasteron POWN evrything do you really think combat always engage with max cap at 10km? put 4 nos on a poc you will pown any blasteron... They to much revelant of capacitor. Evry ship have his weakness just try to think why bonus are for... what about inside 15k? 90% of battles take place inside warpscrambling range. and im not talking about what ppl call fleet battles where you warp in at 200k and everyone shoot at one BS and then warps out. fit a tank to that domi or raven or mega and as much dmg you can also and then compare it to what a geddon that fits for equal dmg can tank. you will be suprised how little it can tank. and then you will say hey use a apoc it can tank!! yeah it can tank but not do any dmg compared to a gallente tier2 or caldari tier2 infact it can tank and do more dmg if i fit it with "MINMATAR " autocannons. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.05.30 09:02:00 -
[140 ]
Just in my opinion, Amarr suppose to be an owesome tanking race which is showed up nicely in their frigate and Cruiser class ships. However, that ability is totally missing in Battleship class, laser using way too much CPU and Grid for both geddon and apoc to have proper tanking or in anotherhand, we can say Amarr BS is not actually designed good enough to cope with laser for both maintaining a reasonable firepower and a good tank but have to totally polarised in one side: no tanking for good damage output or a damage output like wet paper for a reasonable but still not good enough tanking ability. Geddon almost cant tank at all when fit 7 Mega Pulse II, yes, we still can have a large rep and 1600mm plate on it, but after a couple Heat sink IIs and some pvp equipments on mid slot, ie. Warp disruptor and web, they dont have cpu left for hardeners at all, crappy capacitor also mean you can only run the rep for a couple cycle before therre's no cap left. Unless you want to add some faction hardeners and ready to spend it in pvp. Fitting Tach on Geddon make it much worse: 2 RCU II for grid and almost no CPU and Grid left for anything else. Most of the case, we wont be able to fit anything on our 8th hislot as well. Now come the Apoc, 7500 cap with BS level 5, yes, horible amount of cap, but is it great enough ?? Let see if we put some Mega Pulse II there, no guns damage bonus come up with wosre dps output not to mention how good is their damage type. Oh yes, you can have 2 large rep IIs there and run for few cycles but you also will see your capacitor quickly drain out as your reps and guns running, the 5 low slots left, you would sit down for hrs and dont know what to put in there??? No heat sinks ???? Just to survive a bit longer and still cant deal enough damage to the opponent ?? Or a couple heat sink to lift up danage a bit but still nothing to compare with the rest and a crapy tank as well ?? That's only my experiences and it's up to you how to look at it.
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.30 09:07:00 -
[141 ]
Originally by: MacQueen Now come the Apoc, 7500 cap with BS level 5, yes, horible amount of cap, but is it great enough ?? Let see if we put some Mega Pulse II there, no guns damage bonus come up with wosre dps output not to mention how good is their damage type. Oh yes, you can have 2 large rep IIs there and run for few cycles but you also will see your capacitor quickly drain out as your reps and guns running, the 5 low slots left, you would sit down for hrs and dont know what to put in there??? No heat sinks ???? Just to survive a bit longer and still cant deal enough damage to the opponent ?? Or a couple heat sink to lift up danage a bit but still nothing to compare with the rest and a crapy tank as well ?? That's only my experiences and it's up to you how to look at it. or you fit 800mm autocannons and remove the 2 CPR's that you need to use with a laser setup and put 2 gyroII's there and hey presto you got a ship that does more dmg and tanks better. funny isnt it? balance for amarr ships versus others are ****e now. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Raznarok
Posted - 2006.05.30 09:16:00 -
[142 ]
Originally by: Malken with the Mega now able to wtfpwn at close range and long range Minmatar use no cap on their guns and.... yeah need alittle more loving though. and the Domi is the wtfpwn iwin button at close range Caldari still got the wtfpwn recon jammer, Raven wtfpwning at long range and close range Amarr got the geddon that does good dmg with no tank on and the apoc that does more dmg with projectiles then megapulses can we get our explosive crystals soon? Werd Or at least turn the Apoc into a missile boat. . . . . . . . . Joke.
Nadec Ascand
Posted - 2006.05.30 09:21:00 -
[143 ]
Originally by: Malken Originally by: MacQueen Now come the Apoc, 7500 cap with BS level 5, yes, horible amount of cap, but is it great enough ?? Let see if we put some Mega Pulse II there, no guns damage bonus come up with wosre dps output not to mention how good is their damage type. Oh yes, you can have 2 large rep IIs there and run for few cycles but you also will see your capacitor quickly drain out as your reps and guns running, the 5 low slots left, you would sit down for hrs and dont know what to put in there??? No heat sinks ???? Just to survive a bit longer and still cant deal enough damage to the opponent ?? Or a couple heat sink to lift up danage a bit but still nothing to compare with the rest and a crapy tank as well ?? That's only my experiences and it's up to you how to look at it. or you fit 800mm autocannons and remove the 2 CPR's that you need to use with a laser setup and put 2 gyroII's there and hey presto you got a ship that does more dmg and tanks better. funny isnt it? balance for amarr ships versus others are ****e now. FUNNY... yeah funny to compare 800mm T2 fitting requierement with Tachyon T2... should i remind BEAMS are long range PULSE short range. Put 8 Mega PULSE laser T2 u have 3695 pg left and 300CPU enough to put 3 dmg mod 1 large acco 3 hardener. or 3dmg mod 1 Large acco 2 hardener 1 1600 mm plate... when u speack of something try something u can compare.
Lucre
Posted - 2006.05.30 09:27:00 -
[144 ]
Originally by: Malken I would not mind loading my beams or pulses with 25-100 crystals that costs a few isk per shot so i dont have to carry 25mill+ in ammo on every ship. i bet you dont see a mega toting around constantly with 25+mill in ammo in their cargo all the time now do you? QFT. And for fitting a T2 fleet BS this makes loss (which can easily happen in a lagfest) far less affordable. WTB lower cost T2 crystals with fewer shots! Please?
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.30 09:51:00 -
[145 ]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand Originally by: Malken Originally by: MacQueen Now come the Apoc, 7500 cap with BS level 5, yes, horible amount of cap, but is it great enough ?? Let see if we put some Mega Pulse II there, no guns damage bonus come up with wosre dps output not to mention how good is their damage type. Oh yes, you can have 2 large rep IIs there and run for few cycles but you also will see your capacitor quickly drain out as your reps and guns running, the 5 low slots left, you would sit down for hrs and dont know what to put in there??? No heat sinks ???? Just to survive a bit longer and still cant deal enough damage to the opponent ?? Or a couple heat sink to lift up danage a bit but still nothing to compare with the rest and a crapy tank as well ?? That's only my experiences and it's up to you how to look at it. or you fit 800mm autocannons and remove the 2 CPR's that you need to use with a laser setup and put 2 gyroII's there and hey presto you got a ship that does more dmg and tanks better. funny isnt it? balance for amarr ships versus others are ****e now. FUNNY... yeah funny to compare 800mm T2 fitting requierement with Tachyon T2... should i remind BEAMS are long range PULSE short range. Put 8 Mega PULSE laser T2 u have 3695 pg left and 300CPU enough to put 3 dmg mod 1 large acco 3 hardener. or 3dmg mod 1 Large acco 2 hardener 1 1600 mm plate... when u speack of something try something u can compare. to start with a tank for pvp close range very much consists of 2 large reps or it will just die faster then anything else, are you one of those caldari that runs a civilian shield booster on your raven? and how do you intend to run both guns and rep long enough to kill something? remember that dmg is alot less then a megathron or raven or domi even with 800mm autocannons. sure you can kill something now and then but thats most likely to be because the other pilot is crap in his skills or has fitted his ship like a nub. heck you can even use lower version of autocannons and still do more dmg then megapulses. and since autocannons dont use cap at all you dont have the powerguzzling of the megabeams to worry about but you can instead use that surplus power to survive longer while doing more dmg instead with autocannons. doesnt anyone see the really wrong thing about this? btw... someone mentioned the geddon vs the mega and said something about a tier2 were supposed to be superior to a tier1 BS, i give you the DOMINIX wich is the "inside25kwtfpwnmachineofthegame" btw.. dominix is a tier1 BS wich pretty much smokes most things inside 25k straight away unless the driver is a dumb person. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Kinsy
Posted - 2006.05.30 09:55:00 -
[146 ]
I dont want another nosdronejamboat. Yuck. I trained Amarr for one thing and one thing only. Damage. The Amarr design method is simple and honest. Armor and high damage. This is reflected by slot layout and crap CPU. Give us the explosive damage.
Edward Sarum
Posted - 2006.05.30 10:38:00 -
[147 ]
Okay skipped through this thread alot to get to the bottom. While I agree that the Amarr need a new weapon for more verisilte damage types I disagree with explosive crystals. Enegery weapons would not explode on contact. They could create an explosion by hitting a fuel tank of ammo bay but that is it. Now if you wanted to really add balance I might suggest that a ship carrying an ammo based weapon, such as projectiles, Hybrids and Missiles has the potential on each hit to take additional explosive damage to relfect a possible hit on an ammo location. As for Amarr weapons, iftting within the science part of science fiction I would suggest that particle beam weapons be allowed to do kinetic damge. This is one of the nice features of particle weapon developement, that fact it punches through armor. As this is still a beam weapon it fits with Amarr style and backstory and also makes sense within the science of the game.===============================================
Dimitri Vorski
Posted - 2006.05.30 10:42:00 -
[148 ]
I agree with the kinetic damage as the photons from lasers will cause atoms to heat up and this causes movement AKA thermal+kinetic damage The EM damage is basically bull****
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.30 10:58:00 -
[149 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 30/05/2006 11:03:00 *sigh* For the Xth time, this "movement" of atoms IS thermal damage. This is the very thing what thermal energy causes.Thermal Energy Definition It's no "mix" of kinetic and thermal damage because there is nothing to mix. The only thing which happens when you heat something up is that it's atoms get more and more movement energy. If you define that as kinetic damage you have nothing left which is thermal damage and vice versa.
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.05.30 11:08:00 -
[150 ]
Originally by: Edward Sarum Okay skipped through this thread alot to get to the bottom. While I agree that the Amarr need a new weapon for more verisilte damage types I disagree with explosive crystals. Enegery weapons would not explode on contact. They could create an explosion by hitting a fuel tank of ammo bay but that is it. Yes, by all means lets bring realism in to this argument
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.30 11:18:00 -
[151 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Edward Sarum Okay skipped through this thread alot to get to the bottom. While I agree that the Amarr need a new weapon for more verisilte damage types I disagree with explosive crystals. Enegery weapons would not explode on contact. They could create an explosion by hitting a fuel tank of ammo bay but that is it. Yes, by all means lets bring realism in to this argument and while we are at it lets drive our volvo's down to yulai prime also. explosion=rapid heat expansion Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.05.30 11:23:00 -
[152 ]
Originally by: Dimitri Vorski The EM damage is basically bull**** Electromagnetic Damage (EM)is produceded by EVE lasers because their way of functioning . X amount of electrical energy is dranid from the capacitor , the energy stimulate's the laser crystal and it's trachet into space normaly that woud mean ntothing but we're in 0-G where each object has it's own gravity so it produces it's own magnetic field. The laser beam or pulse travels trought space. The space from where the beam travels it's not 100% void . It contains very few atmos but if contains them. The lasers stimulate the atoms making them electroconductors. Now that dumped elecrical enegy has the means to travel to another object which is not electronegative. Thespot where the laser hit's is repidly heated and transformed to plasma whic is very atractive for electrons as it's atoms go through an insane cycle of electrostimulation. So as the lasesr reaches it's target theose electrons also reach the target. Causing electrical damage and due to the fact that we are in 0 G they create a very powerfull magnetic field combined whit the electrical jolt this causes electromagnetical damage. In other words it powers your computer and fry's it. It's like having a powerd computer during a sun storm. If u don't get it or it seems ilogical do some resaerch of your own. P.S. The laser dosen't explode it makes the targeted spot overheat and explode.
PriceCheckMax
Posted - 2006.05.30 11:27:00 -
[153 ]
For teh 1549519583th time!!! GAMEBAAALANCE >>>>>>> REALISM
Soros
Posted - 2006.05.30 11:33:00 -
[154 ]
Clearly you have never fought duri X
madaluap
Posted - 2006.05.30 11:34:00 -
[155 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 30/05/2006 11:34:46 Originally by: PriceCheckMax For teh 1549519583th time!!! GAMEBAAALANCE >>>>>>> REALISM HAHAHHAHA i was just about to post that hehehe, damn some bigass retards on the forums . BUT,but in RL my lasers hit for Explosive dmg LOL What you got a megabeam on your car? _________________________________________________
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.30 12:02:00 -
[156 ]
Originally by: PriceCheckMax For teh 1549519583th time!!! GAMEBAAALANCE >>>>>>> REALISM Agreed. It's fun to try to combine both, though. Exept when you get stuff like this: Originally by: General Apocalypse we're in 0-G where each object has it's own gravity so it produces it's own magnetic field. Wrong. A gravity field has nothing to do whatsoever with a magnetic field. Quote: The lasers stimulate the atoms making them electroconductors. Wrong. Matter gets superconductive when it is cooled, not heated up.
fluke vobiscun
Posted - 2006.05.30 12:11:00 -
[157 ]
Boost Amarr T1 Cruisers. Boost pulslaser range to before they got nerfed. Boost Armageddon cpu. Replace Apocalypse laser capuse bonus with 5% dmg bonus to projectiles
Nadec Ascand
Posted - 2006.05.30 12:16:00 -
[158 ]
8 mega pulse T2 = Average DPS : 782.118 best range 18840.0m 7 neutron T2 = Average DPS : 998.011 best range 7900m with evry skill at 5 Mega will do more dmg with a range half of the poc. Dunnow what to say more you guys cant see that evEry ship is designed for something . And by this each ship is better than another doing something ... There is no ship for evrything (but raven ) And when coming to snipe apoc with 141km for best range do 403dps Megatron with 155km for best range do 387dps. this is more than similar (this 2 dps are with max skill but spe 4 , 3 dmg mod T2 and T2 long range ammo)
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.05.30 12:18:00 -
[159 ]
Originally by: fluke vobiscun Boost Amarr T1 Cruisers. Boost pulslaser range to before they got nerfed. Boost Armageddon cpu. Replace Apocalypse laser capuse bonus with 5% dmg bonus to projectiles Very interesting idea, indeed... but how did the Amarr conquer the Min b4 ?? They dont use Apoc ??? Well, I dont use Apoc at all for pvp for the last 6 months btw, I'm true Amarr !!!!
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.05.30 12:23:00 -
[160 ]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand Dunnow what to say more you guys cant see that evEry ship is designed for something . And by this each ship is better than another doing something ... Yeah, true, my apoc is designed only to tank level 4 missions for my friends. Err, but when I have the Gist X-type Xlarge shield booster for a Scorpion... what should I do with my apoc ??
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.30 12:23:00 -
[161 ]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand 8 mega pulse T2 = Average DPS : 782.118 best range 18840.0m 7 neutron T2 = Average DPS : 998.011 best range 7900m with evry skill at 5 Exept the arma will not be able to fit any tank whatsoever. And travelling the last 10 km and keeping both ships there is not exactly difficult with MWD & Web for the mega. By witch mysthical means does the arma pilot keep the mega at 19km for more than 10 seconds?
Rambo Armsdealer
Posted - 2006.05.30 12:32:00 -
[162 ]
Originally by: Soros Clearly you have never fought duri X i use his exact same setup, it gets ripped apart by a mega also, stop using DPS as arguments since dps means nothing if everyone has 80% resistance to EM and 60% to kinetic that's a 25% reduction in DPS if you want to equalize it (or 33.3% I'm not sure I can't be arsed to think about it but it's the same idea)
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.05.30 12:39:00 -
[163 ]
Edited by: MacQueen on 30/05/2006 12:40:09 Originally by: Soros also, stop using DPS as arguments since dps means nothing if everyone has 80% resistance to EM and 60% to kinetic that's a 25% reduction in DPS if you want to equalize it (or 33.3% I'm not sure I can't be arsed to think about it but it's the same idea) 29.2 % reduction in DPS using Multifrequency L EM/Ther ratio factor conpare to Antimatter L Kin/Ther factor.
Nadec Ascand
Posted - 2006.05.30 12:40:00 -
[164 ]
evryboddy dont tank armor u know... and for the argment evry ship dont have 80% resist in em... or does they all fear a ship wich is so bugged than u cant kill anything... why does evryone would tank something wich do crap dmg when We do so crazy dmg ,why is there so much amarr evry where when gallente/caldari/matar are so cool... And Appoc is 8 turret ARMA is 7. I still dont see u want to kill in duel a ship design for this kind of battle from start (playing for 3 years now) Megatron as always been design to be king of duel, he is no good at missionning worst than poc for sniping and will die to any cap sux ship.
Dimitri Vorski
Posted - 2006.05.30 12:45:00 -
[165 ]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand evryboddy dont tank armor u know... and for the argment evry ship dont have 80% resist in em... or does they all fear a ship wich is so bugged than u cant kill anything... why does evryone would tank something wich do crap dmg when We do so crazy dmg ,why is there so much amarr evry where when gallente/caldari/matar are so cool... And Appoc is 8 turret ARMA is 7. I still dont see u want to kill in duel a ship design for this kind of battle from start (playing for 3 years now) Megatron as always been design to be king of duel, he is no good at missionning worst than poc for sniping and will die to any cap sux ship. every ship dies to cap suck ships and mega>apoc at sniping this is not about duel it's about general usage and it's a fact that usually in pvp people armor tank since med slots are too valuable to tank with with the passive armor mod boosts fitting 2 EANM II's, which is pretty much mandatory, gets your EM resists @ 80%
Astrum Ludus
Posted - 2006.05.30 12:50:00 -
[166 ]
Originally by: Yurdis Astor Everything else I fly, is allways undocked with a funny gut feeling. thought that was just me :\
Theron Gyrow
Posted - 2006.05.30 13:18:00 -
[167 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nadec Ascand 8 mega pulse T2 = Average DPS : 782.118 best range 18840.0m 7 neutron T2 = Average DPS : 998.011 best range 7900m with evry skill at 5 Exept the arma will not be able to fit any tank whatsoever. And travelling the last 10 km and keeping both ships there is not exactly difficult with MWD & Web for the mega. By witch mysthical means does the arma pilot keep the mega at 19km for more than 10 seconds? With maxed skills, Mega with 7 T2 neutrons and T2 100MN MWD has 3113.1 grid and something like 291 CPU remaining. With maxed skills, Apoc with 8 T2 mega pulses has 4575 grid and 307 CPU remaining. It also has 78% more cap/cap recharge available than Mega. With maxed skills, Arma with 7 T2 mega pulses has 3300 grid and 284.25 CPU remaining. Its DoT is also 912.471 if the above calculations were correct. Don't like the closing speed? Fit a MWD yourself. What, it cripples your cap? Believe me, I know. By the way, some advice: Tuxford has mentioned that he pays much, much more attention to threads that include accurate numbers in them. And I don't blame him - everyone feels that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. -- Gradient's forum
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.05.30 13:54:00 -
[168 ]
Ok pll i posted those explanations only to kill some of the oposition like "it's unrealistical for explosive dmg on lasers boohoohoo". The true is that i don't give a dam on RL i just whant lasers boosted. If the game was 100% RL it woud be boring. And all of those who like lasers or fell like their Amarr suport this topic and post . If we reach 20 pages of post maybe some DEV woud look and take the necesar measure ad thea measure is :
Epsilon 1
Posted - 2006.05.30 13:54:00 -
[169 ]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nadec Ascand 8 mega pulse T2 = Average DPS : 782.118 best range 18840.0m 7 neutron T2 = Average DPS : 998.011 best range 7900m with evry skill at 5 Exept the arma will not be able to fit any tank whatsoever. And travelling the last 10 km and keeping both ships there is not exactly difficult with MWD & Web for the mega. By witch mysthical means does the arma pilot keep the mega at 19km for more than 10 seconds? With maxed skills, Mega with 7 T2 neutrons and T2 100MN MWD has 3113.1 grid and something like 291 CPU remaining. With maxed skills, Apoc with 8 T2 mega pulses has 4575 grid and 307 CPU remaining. It also has 78% more cap/cap recharge available than Mega. With maxed skills, Arma with 7 T2 mega pulses has 3300 grid and 284.25 CPU remaining. Its DoT is also 912.471 if the above calculations were correct. Don't like the closing speed? Fit a MWD yourself. What, it cripples your cap? Believe me, I know. By the way, some advice: Tuxford has mentioned that he pays much, much more attention to threads that include accurate numbers in them. And I don't blame him - everyone feels that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. 7 megapulses + mwd and a tank on a geddon, rite Fit all that and dont gimp the setup and i will give you a cookie. And lol an apoc for closerange vs. a mega Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.30 15:05:00 -
[170 ]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nadec Ascand 8 mega pulse T2 = Average DPS : 782.118 best range 18840.0m 7 neutron T2 = Average DPS : 998.011 best range 7900m with evry skill at 5 Exept the arma will not be able to fit any tank whatsoever. And travelling the last 10 km and keeping both ships there is not exactly difficult with MWD & Web for the mega. By witch mysthical means does the arma pilot keep the mega at 19km for more than 10 seconds? With maxed skills, Mega with 7 T2 neutrons and T2 100MN MWD has 3113.1 grid and something like 291 CPU remaining. With maxed skills, Apoc with 8 T2 mega pulses has 4575 grid and 307 CPU remaining. It also has 78% more cap/cap recharge available than Mega. With maxed skills, Arma with 7 T2 mega pulses has 3300 grid and 284.25 CPU remaining. Its DoT is also 912.471 if the above calculations were correct. Don't like the closing speed? Fit a MWD yourself. What, it cripples your cap? Believe me, I know. By the way, some advice: Tuxford has mentioned that he pays much, much more attention to threads that include accurate numbers in them. And I don't blame him - everyone feels that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. So you include some numbers in each post by you even though they have no real meaning to the discussion? Or does the comparsion of the CPU/PG need of the megas guns with MWD vs the Apoc and Aramas closerange setup without MWD mean anything here? The point is still unchanged, the medium range advantage of the arma is basically not there because a mega can travel that distance rather fast. And the Arma cannot make a MWD race with the mega and simultany keep the guns up, so it's not like you can use a MWD of your own to keep your medium range and destroy the mega from there. It's either the Mega using the MWD to get to <10 km and blast the Arma to kingdom come or the Arma uss a MWD of its own to keep the Mega on 20 km but won't have cap left to keep any meaningful amount of dps on the mega. No matter how you look at it, the "range advantage" of the arma is not existant.
Kardim
Posted - 2006.05.30 15:40:00 -
[171 ]
the main and major problem with amarr is with the turrets, in all honesty lasers suck. If you train to lvl 5 specialization you are still behind other guns, for the few that stuck w/ amarr feeling that the cycle would return amarr to some point of power are feeling a good bit screeewwwd. The problems IMO roots back to when everyone used only beams (because there was no tracking)and ccp decided to make pulses feasible to use.... so everyone used pulses for a good long time.... then ccp decided to overhaul the lasers, not for the good of amarr or lasers mind u but to balance the armageddon.... basing all the lasers off the damage of one ship is in no other terms ludicrous. And mind you, that not only did lasers get nerfed they messed with the dmg from crystals at the same time. Most call this balance ,when using medium pulses you cant hit a webbed interceptor while using his own a/b, i call it nerfed. We received a double whammy at one time, while all the other races were being looked at and given bonus's, the amarr kept all the nerfs placed upon her head.
tenp1
Posted - 2006.05.30 16:57:00 -
[172 ]
Edited by: tenp1 on 30/05/2006 17:02:33 Yes I remember the build up the the damage type changes on lasers. I remember how hybrid users whined so much that they got the same change overturned for hybrid ammo ( they were going to be more thermal damage than kinetic like lasers ended with much more em than thermal). At the same time whenever anyone mentioned that lasers were getting screwed in the same way, the answer was always "EM is amarr's racial damage type" and thermal wasn't galante's? Anyway I digress, since the main reason for the nerf was like already mentioned, to balance the no longer possible 8 HS II geddon (and by doing so screw every other turret especially small pulse with the range change), lasers no longer have a reason for that nerf. In the very least they should be put back to the pre nerf ranges and crystal damage types, along with medium beams getting a PG needed reduction. Radio getting a little em damge replace with thermal would go a long way as well ,not to mention getting it's damage put back up to that of the equivilent range hybrid and projectile ammo. And by that I mean the ammo that goes the same range not the longest range ammo, afterall, less range means more damage.
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.05.30 17:12:00 -
[173 ]
Originally by: Foomanshoe Originally by: Gronsak perhaps but first all t2 ammo that does more damage than the old t2 high dmg ammo needs to be removed t2 ammo should help your ship be more defensive not offensive! Why would ammo, which is by definition a purely offensive item, make your ship more offensive? I dont remember anyone ever blocking a bullet shot with another bullet. City Hunter
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.05.30 17:14:00 -
[174 ]
Continue to whine we will get recognition soooooooooooon(tm)Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
God forbid
Posted - 2006.05.30 17:26:00 -
[175 ]
ok What game have I been playing.. I thought my armageddon where Overpowered.. No its true, I even started to lose 1vs1 on the Test Server purposely Quote: "He did not know, Who he was ******* with."
Fio'el Testament
Posted - 2006.05.30 17:47:00 -
[176 ]
Edited by: Fio''el Testament on 30/05/2006 17:49:44 I might mess the scientific terms caz of french, but stick with me and correct me as needed :p I'm gonna talk a little about weapon types. Everything is energy. Kinetic penetrate because when you take their energy and apply it to a surface, they have enough force to penetrate. Thermal is, as someone pointed out very well, the movement of atoms. Absolute zero is no movement; plasma is the happy dance. Explosives are simply very fast expanding clouds of heat. And then you have the electromagnetic domain. E = hf = hc/l What that means is that photons have energy. X rays are photons with a crazy frequency. Radio are photons with much less energy. Theoritically, Radio crystals shouldn't do anything... radios don't even harm us humans (or at least we like to think so) :| Where it gets interesting is under the visible light spectrum. Ultraviolet, Xrays and Gamma radiation have enormous energy. For example, if you put methane and chlorine and light up with UV light, it will do a chemical reaction resulting in CCl4! The UV has the energy to mess up the chlorine and cause a reaction. The electromagnetic spectrum needs NO mass to travel, that's what makes it so good. It is useless by itself, it's its interaction with matter that makes it dangerous! Gamma radiation can go right through 30 cm of lead, not that's what I call penetrating power! Any photon with enough energy will compeltely fry electronics, throwing electrons everwhere causing an electric current that can be strong enough to destroy the electronics! (photoelectric effect) Enough energy can ionize matter, and see, it gets kind of unstable when it'S jsut free nuclides and electrons... You could literally turn a ship into plasma! Now, the most interesting part of photons are lasers. Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. That's one badass name! So it's amplified light with only one wavelength that's a result of radiation. They are basically beams of energy. Now here's an interesting thing : Nuclear fusion requires energy. You guessed it, scientists HAVE performed nuclear fusion using lasers. Now, what happens if you cause nuclear fusion on your opponent's ship? You guessed it, it goes boom. So lasers fry electrical components (EM), excite the molecules (thermal), and can create nuclear fusion (explosion) resulting in very fast debris (kinetic). QED Edit: This just in from the Discover I read : Cosmic rays = High energy photons with mass and energy = photonic bullets that actually leave a trail in one's brain!!! :| One astronaut exposed had multiple "bullet" trajectories in his brain because of those. Now imagine condensing those rays... ouch!
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.30 18:29:00 -
[177 ]
Well, Explosions are not exactly expanding clouds of heats, but essentially preasure waves. It's similar, but not exactly the same. or perhaps I am just a nitpick there. And, yes, Lasers can fry electronics, but thats kinda different to it damaging/destroying armor and hull as it does right now.
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.05.30 18:32:00 -
[178 ]
Originally by: Fio'el Testament Edited by: Fio''el Testament on 30/05/2006 17:49:44 I might mess the scientific terms caz of french, but stick with me and correct me as needed :p I'm gonna talk a little about weapon types. Everything is energy. Kinetic penetrate because when you take their energy and apply it to a surface, they have enough force to penetrate. Thermal is, as someone pointed out very well, the movement of atoms. Absolute zero is no movement; plasma is the happy dance. Explosives are simply very fast expanding clouds of heat. And then you have the electromagnetic domain. E = hf = hc/l What that means is that photons have energy. X rays are photons with a crazy frequency. Radio are photons with much less energy. Theoritically, Radio crystals shouldn't do anything... radios don't even harm us humans (or at least we like to think so) :| Where it gets interesting is under the visible light spectrum. Ultraviolet, Xrays and Gamma radiation have enormous energy. For example, if you put methane and chlorine and light up with UV light, it will do a chemical reaction resulting in CCl4! The UV has the energy to mess up the chlorine and cause a reaction. The electromagnetic spectrum needs NO mass to travel, that's what makes it so good. It is useless by itself, it's its interaction with matter that makes it dangerous! Gamma radiation can go right through 30 cm of lead, not that's what I call penetrating power! Any photon with enough energy will compeltely fry electronics, throwing electrons everwhere causing an electric current that can be strong enough to destroy the electronics! (photoelectric effect) Enough energy can ionize matter, and see, it gets kind of unstable when it'S jsut free nuclides and electrons... You could literally turn a ship into plasma! Now, the most interesting part of photons are lasers. Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. That's one badass name! So it's amplified light with only one wavelength that's a result of radiation. They are basically beams of energy. Now here's an interesting thing : Nuclear fusion requires energy. You guessed it, scientists HAVE performed nuclear fusion using lasers. Now, what happens if you cause nuclear fusion on your opponent's ship? You guessed it, it goes boom. So lasers fry electrical components (EM), excite the molecules (thermal), and can create nuclear fusion (explosion) resulting in very fast debris (kinetic). QED Edit: This just in from the Discover I read : Cosmic rays = High energy photons with mass and energy = photonic bullets that actually leave a trail in one's brain!!! :| One astronaut exposed had multiple "bullet" trajectories in his brain because of those. Now imagine condensing those rays... ouch! Thank you for posting a noob simple demonstration maybe now they'll understand that lasers can do all types of damage. And that they can do it better then most weapon systems. Ok Tuxford u heard now pls pls pls give Amarr the love it needs and ....
boost lasers
Posted - 2006.05.30 18:34:00 -
[179 ]
Originally by: Fio'el Testament Kinetic penetrate because when you take their energy and apply it to a surface, they have enough force to penetrate. Thermal is, as someone pointed out very well, the movement of atoms. Absolute zero is no movement; plasma is the happy dance. Explosives are simply very fast expanding clouds of heat. Kinetic and thermal energy are pretty much the same thing. Temperature is just a measure of average kinetic energy (atomic movement). Explosives are just a more complicated kinetic reaction but essentially it's all the same. ____________________________________________________ __
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.05.30 18:34:00 -
[180 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Well, Explosions are not exactly expanding clouds of heats, but essentially preasure waves. It's similar, but not exactly the same. or perhaps I am just a nitpick there. And, yes, Lasers can fry electronics, but thats kinda different to it damaging/destroying armor and hull as it does right now. Dude convo me ingame and i'll explain all u need to know. For now stop posting against Amarr.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.30 18:44:00 -
[181 ]
The difference is (in EVE terms) that thermal energy causes a material to destroy itself from within while kinetic energy is destroying a material from outside. Also, you can have a material which channels temperture extremly well, aka is very hard to damage by heat, but is very brittle, aka shatters easily if you hit it with something hard. Saying it's the same is too simplistic a view.
chaos98
Posted - 2006.05.30 18:56:00 -
[182 ]
Originally by: boost lasers Originally by: Fio'el Testament Kinetic penetrate because when you take their energy and apply it to a surface, they have enough force to penetrate. Thermal is, as someone pointed out very well, the movement of atoms. Absolute zero is no movement; plasma is the happy dance. Explosives are simply very fast expanding clouds of heat. Kinetic and thermal energy are pretty much the same thing. Temperature is just a measure of average kinetic energy (atomic movement). Explosives are just a more complicated kinetic reaction but essentially it's all the same.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.05.30 19:13:00 -
[183 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 30/05/2006 19:15:50 No, because, as said, the main damage of an explosion is not heat, it's pressure. Take, for example, an atomic bomb. While the heat of it's explosion is by no means little the *really* devestating part of it is the strong pressure wave it causes. You very likely have seen movies where a building (or entire city block) is leveled by an atomic bomb - they do not melt or burst into flames, they are simply brushed away like with the hand of god.
madaluap
Posted - 2006.05.30 20:14:00 -
[184 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 30/05/2006 20:16:38 You are all a bunch of retards, dont bring physics into EvE. Its the worst argument EVER dont you understand, so somehow you calculate that lasers are TEHWIN button, and that you should have 1000^49 dmgMOD and be shooting all damage including p0o. There is NO point. OK! Now bring out arguments about enemies using EAM so they get insane EM/therm resistance and you use the most cap evaah and that you get raped by a slasher all day long. The rest is just a load of crap, nobody takes that serieusly except ultrageeks that think physics > beer... Dont you see if i say boost gallente and offer t0mb a beer he will give me HAX dmgmod while your crappy arguments wont do jack _________________________________________________
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.30 21:23:00 -
[185 ]
beer>physics in eve Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Wicaeed
Posted - 2006.05.30 21:36:00 -
[186 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 30/05/2006 20:16:38 You are all a bunch of retards, dont bring physics into EvE. Its the worst argument EVER dont you understand, so somehow you calculate that lasers are TEHWIN button, and that you should have 1000^49 dmgMOD and be shooting all damage including p0o. There is NO point. OK! Now bring out arguments about enemies using EAM so they get insane EM/therm resistance and you use the most cap evaah and that you get raped by a slasher all day long. The rest is just a load of crap, nobody takes that serieusly except ultrageeks that think physics > beer... Dont you see if i say boost gallente and offer t0mb a beer he will give me HAX dmgmod while your crappy arguments wont do jack Thank you for this well thought out and researched arguement
madaluap
Posted - 2006.05.30 21:47:00 -
[187 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 30/05/2006 21:53:47 Originally by: Wicaeed Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 30/05/2006 20:16:38 You are all a bunch of retards, dont bring physics into EvE. Its the worst argument EVER dont you understand, so somehow you calculate that lasers are TEHWIN button, and that you should have 1000^49 dmgMOD and be shooting all damage including p0o. There is NO point. OK! Now bring out arguments about enemies using EAM so they get insane EM/therm resistance and you use the most cap evaah and that you get raped by a slasher all day long. The rest is just a load of crap, nobody takes that serieusly except ultrageeks that think physics > beer... Dont you see if i say boost gallente and offer t0mb a beer he will give me HAX dmgmod while your crappy arguments wont do jack Thank you for this well thought out and researched arguement It is actually very well thought out, but some people dont get sarcasme including you..->the ever hated rolling eyes . What i am saying is use INGAME arguments, NOT lameass "the megapulse laser 2 i use for cleaning up the garden does explosive dmg" Its all for the sake of balance and ammar are just whining, because they think its time for them again. I have just seen 2 decent arguments and that was someone claiming that medium pulse/beam laser use to much PG and that T2 crystals should have less shots on them, but more of them could be made in the same production run. So that ammar dont have to carry around with millions worth of crystals, because that is rubbish... Just look @ the gallente or even better the minmatar whine threads: very well thought out posts featuring the diffent dps and tracking vs each gun in its class. Im 100% convinced now that the clippsize is to small, that the difference between each gunclass (example: d180/220/425) are not big enough to justify their fitting problems. This all is just buhu and thats it. Prove me wrong, i dare you... _________________________________________________
Felio
Posted - 2006.05.30 22:33:00 -
[188 ]
Edited by: Felio on 30/05/2006 22:33:58 You guys forget that our battleships are the best miners so that balances it out right? <<<< Amarr specced Gallente
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.05.30 22:45:00 -
[189 ]
People do keep pointing to how common good em and thermal resists are, to think that doesn't hurt a faction that only does em and thermal damage is just silly. Really, how would it hurt game balance if the Amarr got a decent mid-short range explosive or kinetic crystal? If resists aren't a factor they'll just do the same low damage they do now and people will stop whinning about it (or just find something new to whine about ). I bet it would make Amarr ships a little more useful and less predictable than they are now. Give Gallente an em damage charge just to be "fair".... I bet more people would understand how it greatly limits your damage, they would probably only use it to hunt Sansha .
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.05.31 01:46:00 -
[190 ]
Well, the main point that I'm here is to give people more attention about Amarr is actually losing their own ballance in the game, their battleship are no longer in line with other battleships. Oh, yes, I'm whinning, because the fact is even there're lots of Amarr in this game, how offen do you see a good Apocalype pilot in battle ??? Not too many at all. I want to see Amarr ship to have some place in the game, not only sticking with level 4 mission tanking even with only that jobs, a Scorpion with proper set up may out rank us. Since I've started pvp seriously, my apocalype is sitting and rusting in the station and I wont be bother to assembly it once again. So, having explosive damage or not to me is not that important. I want to see my apocalype having some place in battle or at least a special role in combat. I want people seriously look at how Amarr have been down graded with time. Being a leader for a Vietnamese group in game, several times so far, I have seen many newcomer and when they ask me about the game, about the race, I can easily say: Gallente is king of close range combat, Caldari is king of PVE and EW in pvp, Minmatar is owesome with snipping ability and fast ships. But I dont know what to say about my own chosen race: Amarr, what are they good for ??? Tell me !!!
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.05.31 01:56:00 -
[191 ]
Originally by: madaluap Its all for the sake of balance and ammar are just whining, because they think its time for them again. Exactly what it is (no sarcasim) and its a large portion of the argument, other races have been boosted, and Amarr has not been boosted and has been nerfed twice (Pulse laser range, and damage mod stacking penalty [Dont give me that "Oh it effected all of us" bull... what other race used 8 damage mods stacked ]) Hence the other races have pulled away from Amarr and we are lacking in PvP because of it.Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Sabine Borgia
Posted - 2006.05.31 06:29:00 -
[192 ]
well ive startet amarr cause they looked cool ttheitr ships had a nice design and i always was a laser lover.over time they tooked away my beloved mega pulse they were so cool and uber (ok nerf was needed) but then they go on and nerf the rest too i tried mega beams and dual heavy beams and saw they suck. well i startet to fly caldari cause they are easy to fly and do awesome dmg in compare to my amarr ships. well atm im really sad i fly a absolution with cs skill levl 4 and all beam skills at 5 and 9 mills in gunnery in pve i just suck i try to take on a 500k bs and and need to hammer on it for 5 minutes!!! a cerberus kills such a bs in nothing its not that my beams are firing to slow or hit to less they just do crap dmg its a fact that nearby any ship got em and thermal tank runing and so im ****** i got 32 mills sps now and ******* good beam skills and i see a noob with 4 mill sps go in with a macha and kills like ****. in pvp its the same i cant do dmg over range and at close my tracing sux so i also start to fit acs on my ships cause they hit well and do awesome dmg and let me tank way longer. lasers atm are really crap the dps is to low and just thermal em dmg sux all other races got at last 3-4 dmg types we just got 2 and they are well tanked.
Tel Bakhara
Posted - 2006.05.31 06:52:00 -
[193 ]
Originally by: Sabine Borgia lasers atm are really crap the dps is to low and just thermal em dmg sux all other races got at last 3-4 dmg types we just got 2 and they are well tanked. Most Amarrian I met stick in tanker route, Punisher->Maller->Proph->Apoc as the "better ones", not because they love tanking but that in fact they have to. That the fact that attracts ppl to Amarr is the look and the power of the ship not the bonus or weapon. As an Amarrian ppl get used to waste half of the ship's bonus. And that's why ppl think the renascence of Amarr philosophy is a doom to Khanid Innovation. Not very accumulate but follow the route as others do, Punisher->Maller->Proph->Apoc, and their T2's, and feel free to mount your projectiles
Xendie
Posted - 2006.05.31 07:10:00 -
[194 ]
i dont see gallente using projectiles or minmatar using rails in order to tank and do dmg anywhere near what caldari can. i gotta agree, something needs to be done to Amarr ships and guns. -------- Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.05.31 07:32:00 -
[195 ]
Today I fitted out a Completely T2 Maller with Projectiles (220mm AC) it pwned and I hade a nice 1600mm plated tank Amarr the only race where you spec another races guns to use the ships better Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Asurix
Posted - 2006.05.31 10:24:00 -
[196 ]
Amarr deff needs a boost, I specced in it before te nerf but atm I'm training up my minmatar skills.... cuz either everything's overpowered bar amarr, or amarr is just underpowered like crazy, with their main dmg type on the highest resist of the average ship
Frools
Posted - 2006.05.31 10:29:00 -
[197 ]
Originally by: Tel Bakhara Most Amarrian I met stick in tanker route, Punisher->Maller->Proph->Apoc as the "better ones", not because they love tanking but that in fact they have to. That the fact that attracts ppl to Amarr is the look and the power of the ship not the bonus or weapon. lies! i saw a vid of the veritable gankageddon when i was a month old noob and i decided amarr was for me i fly the 'gank' half of the amarr ship tree for the most part crusader -> omen -> tier 2 bc? -> geddon they're fun to fly but they still suck relatively speaking
Brother Tycho
Posted - 2006.05.31 11:27:00 -
[198 ]
fit some 1400mm on your apoc with some gyros it works fine then it can tank and do dmg.. hold on aint we ment to use lasers? well when i use beam lasers and a heat sink after 3 mins of tanking and fireing im just about capped out so you fill most your meds with cap chargers and the rest of you lows with cap relays just to tank well but have the dmg of a wet towel. give the maller, punisher and apoc proj rof bonuses ftw. -------------[B«+tHd« T¦¦H+]------------- åå Spreading the good word since beta åå
Astrum Ludus
Posted - 2006.05.31 12:23:00 -
[199 ]
Having arrived in 0.0 and found I was unable to kill rats or tank them, despite having 8 guns and a 7 slot (inc Injector) tank, and discovering my mate in a raven with 500k less sp than me said they were quite hard, then went on to explain in his book that meant the tank took 30 seconds to break, I was just about ready to jack the whole thing in. I get a grip on myself and realise I've been here not 24 hours and only tried one setup so I ask my older and wiser corp mates and the responce is 'fit 800s' or 'fit miner IIs' I don't want to fit god damn 800s I want lasers that work! Can I ask, is there a single role performed by an Amarr ship that isn't performed better by some other ship from another race? be it damage output, tanking, ewar, drones or anything else you care to mention. /me needs to breath
Dr Rane
Posted - 2006.05.31 12:53:00 -
[200 ]
Originally by: Morphee Edited by: Morphee on 29/05/2006 15:47:07 First of all, just for the sake of concept, how do you explain a laser doing explosive dmg? It's particles, not a warhead. ehm this might have been explained earlier, but i couldn't bother reading the whole thread. first of all, particles you say, then what is a warhead made of? second, what is an explosion really? huge amount of energy released in a short period of time. if you hit an atom or molecule with energy(like laser) its electrons will "jump" to a higher level of energy, a ms later it will fall back to its normal level, releasing the exact same amount of energy but in a different direction. voila! an explosion might occur. and third, most important. EVE is a GAME! not a lot of eve's universe follows the fysical or chemical laws of nature... im not english myself so my abilitys to explain might be a bit low. Originally by: Oveur I'm Tuxford.
Malken
Posted - 2006.05.31 13:18:00 -
[201 ]
Originally by: Astrum Ludus Can I ask, is there a single role performed by an Amarr ship that isn't performed better by some other ship from another race? be it damage output, tanking, ewar, drones or anything else you care to mention. /me needs to breath well the only one i can think of is the Amarr freighter but that only wins due to its sexy looks. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Dr Rane
Posted - 2006.05.31 13:31:00 -
[202 ]
Originally by: Malken Originally by: Astrum Ludus Can I ask, is there a single role performed by an Amarr ship that isn't performed better by some other ship from another race? be it damage output, tanking, ewar, drones or anything else you care to mention. /me needs to breath well the only one i can think of is the Amarr freighter but that only wins due to its sexy looks. i take it you like large women? Originally by: Oveur I'm Tuxford.
Jon Xylur
Posted - 2006.05.31 14:23:00 -
[203 ]
I see no reason in giving lasers explosive damage unless they give hybrids some other dmage type than therm and kin. Those are the two most tanked dmagae types!Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, and not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Tassi
Posted - 2006.05.31 14:25:00 -
[204 ]
Originally by: Malken beer>physics in eve To be 100% exact, I think the physics in eve are a product of beer
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.01 05:22:00 -
[205 ]
This thread will not die, continue to whine! We will be heard!Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Felio
Posted - 2006.06.01 05:25:00 -
[206 ]
/whine. I kinda feel left out, everyone else got buffed :(.
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.01 06:08:00 -
[207 ]
Yeah, dev recognition pretty plz? show us that you do care!Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Vampirka
Posted - 2006.06.01 06:22:00 -
[208 ]
Give back the Maller and Omen cpu that got nerfed away in Mk 2.
Apolyon I
Posted - 2006.06.01 06:49:00 -
[209 ]
Originally by: Vampirka Give back the Maller and Omen cpu that got nerfed away in Mk 2. I think the Omen and Maller are fine atm, Maller still one of the best cruiser inagme, there's no point to make them overpower. Explosive damage for laser is totally no neccessary, if laser are too ineffective, slight improve in rof or damage should fix it. However, I do agree that the Geddon and Apoc should have some improvements, some more CPU and grid for the Geddon to enable them to use their 8th high power slot. The Apoc is particularly difficult, it still cant find it own role in the game yet. But as Amarr being good tanker, I would suggest to change the Cap bonus to armor resistant bonus, slightly improve armor HP and also trash one turret hardpoint and make another low power slot. It will make the Apoc the best tanker. Some more grid for the apoc would be nice as well Another suggestion i would add in, is improve tach rof and damage about 10-15%, then greatly increase both grid required for tach and grid output of the Apoc to somehow only enable the apoc to use 7 tach with 3-4 RCU and almost impossible to load those on the geddon. But it will be to difficult to implement btw.
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.01 07:03:00 -
[210 ]
Originally by: Apolyon I Originally by: Vampirka Give back the Maller and Omen cpu that got nerfed away in Mk 2. I think the Omen and Maller are fine atm, Maller still one of the best cruiser inagme, there's no point to make them overpower. best guns to use on a maller is not beam or pulse weapons. Quote: Explosive damage for laser is totally no neccessary, if laser are too ineffective, slight improve in rof or damage should fix it. wrong, a higher RoF would only empty the capacitor even faster and make it even harder to tank anything also. Quote: However, I do agree that the Geddon and Apoc should have some improvements, some more CPU and grid for the Geddon to enable them to use their 8th high power slot. by using the 8th highslot on a geddon more effective??? you do know that the geddon only has 7 turret slots. so how would the 8th slot help with tanking any dmg wich is the main problem with the geddon compared to lets say a Dominix wich is a Tier1 BS also. Quote: The Apoc is particularly difficult, it still cant find it own role in the game yet. But as Amarr being good tanker, I would suggest to change the Cap bonus to armor resistant bonus, slightly improve armor HP and also trash one turret hardpoint and make another low power slot. It will make the Apoc the best tanker. Some more grid for the apoc would be nice as well im sorry but i dont think you ever tried to tank anything in a Apoc while firing a set of megapulses. so a slight increase in resists and have the guns suck 50% more cap is your idea of tanking better? how do you suggest that amarr will ever be able to kill anything ?, with no guns running it cant kill anything, with guns running it will have no cap to rep with in 20sec??? Quote: Another suggestion i would add in, is improve tach rof and damage about 10-15%, then greatly increase both grid required for tach and grid output of the Apoc to somehow only enable the apoc to use 7 tach with 3-4 RCU and almost impossible to load those on the geddon. But it will be to difficult to implement btw. once again, you dont fly Amarr BS do you? you can fit long range guns and do pretty well on a apoc but for long range the geddon does better in every respect. the huge problem is the shortgame where both Amarr BS are inferior to any other BS due to they cant tank/do dmg enough at the same time. i think its hilarious that a apoc can fit projectile weapons and do more dmg + tank better at the same time then it can while using their racial weapons, and do all dmg types also at the same time. before you suggest something about amarr make sure you atleast can and have been flying them in pvp for awhile. same goes for Tuxford. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Belphegor I
Posted - 2006.06.01 08:34:00 -
[211 ]
Edited by: Belphegor I on 01/06/2006 08:35:22 Well, if you think explosive damage will fit the problem, you're wrong, people most likely tanked explosive than anything. So the problem wont be fix. Amarr need a boost but have to be a complete role playing boost, not only that little thing. PS. Ops, sorry, accidentally using this unused char within account. It's me Apolyon I.
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.01 10:19:00 -
[212 ]
Originally by: Belphegor I Edited by: Belphegor I on 01/06/2006 08:35:22 Well, if you think explosive damage will fit the problem, you're wrong, people most likely tanked explosive than anything. So the problem wont be fix. Amarr need a boost but have to be a complete role playing boost, not only that little thing. PS. Ops, sorry, accidentally using this unused char within account. It's me Apolyon I. Agreed, EM and Ther damage on Amarr is fine to me. We need a role upgrade on Amarr ships. Give Apocalype some proper use in combat. Give Amarr some love.
Kitty O'Shay
Posted - 2006.06.01 10:20:00 -
[213 ]
I think changing the EM/thermal damage ratio to be more thermal heavy would solve most of the problems. --Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals!
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.01 10:35:00 -
[214 ]
Originally by: Apolyon I I think the Omen and Maller are fine atm, Maller still one of the best cruiser inagme, there's no point to make them overpower. not really imo, omen and maller both need more grid, quite a lot more grid i think we can all agree that the maller is supposed to be a tanking ship given that is it wrong that you should be able to fit a dual rep tank on it and fit the lowest tier medium guns? as it is even using accomodation reps you run out of grid to fill the last highslot another 150 ish grid would let you fill all your slots the damage output is still pathetic but the tank is nice would it be overpowered for the maller to be able to fit: 4x focused pulse II 1x med nos med cap booster web scram 2x accomodation reps 3x energized adaptive nanos 1x something, small plate, heatsink, whatever omen, damage ship right? needs more grid again or perhaps a reduction in grid for heavy pulses would it be overpowered for the omen to be able to fit 4x heavy pulse II 1x med nos ab/web/scram 3 hs 400mm plate small rep 5x light drones decent damage output (still nowhere near as much as a blasterax) and no tank at all, i would love to be able to fit this on my omen as it is you cant fit a heavy pulse setup without an rcu, which leaves you with no rep or no armour geddon could do with a little bit more cpu apoc, i dont really know, i dont fly it so im not going to suggest any improvements
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.01 11:00:00 -
[215 ]
Edited by: Godar Marak on 01/06/2006 11:01:24 From E-on#2 Quote: Top 10 most popular cruisers 1 Thorax 2 Osprey 3 Caracal 4 blackbird 5 Moa 6 Rupture 7 Maller 8 Vexor 9 Exequror 10 Omen 7th and 10th place. I wonder why
kessah
Posted - 2006.06.01 11:02:00 -
[216 ]
explosive crystals mmmmmm it just doesnt feel right. Ive personally no problem with the damage amarr do and i catogarise myself as "fly" amarr. I think if anything they just need there minimum range decreased so they can hit closer targets with pulse. It really sucks how i cant really hit a megaT when it in his blaster range. Ive tested this quite extensivly on sisi and i kinda got dismissed by most of the eve comm. Amarr do need summin i just think it should be better tracking or summin along those lines. --------------------------------------------------------http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv [/ur
kessah
Posted - 2006.06.01 11:06:00 -
[217 ]
Malken your asking wrong dev, u need to be pleading with Oveur he's the Amarr junkie! he'll shake things up so Amarr ships are king once again! --------------------------------------------------------http://www.eve-files.com/media/0604/Forever_pirate.wmv [/ur
Heiken Wimast
Posted - 2006.06.01 11:27:00 -
[218 ]
In future, What should i expect? Lasers # Increased Capacitor need by 15% # Increased cpu need by 10% # Increased powergrid need by 10% on all heavy beam lasers As you see many laser, amarr ship and "DAMAGE CRYSTAL" (is it really damage crystal or what ?) users mentioned their ideas. So all these people are lying? Whining for nothing? Is that the way "i should go for another race weapons and mabe ships" ? Really dunno, what should i do? Ok im gonna sit and accept my desperate "FATE" !
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.01 12:32:00 -
[219 ]
Originally by: kessah Malken your asking wrong dev, u need to be pleading with Oveur he's the Amarr junkie! he'll shake things up so Amarr ships are king once again! ??? ??? Well, thanks for the free bump anyway.
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.01 12:42:00 -
[220 ]
Originally by: kessah Malken your asking wrong dev, u need to be pleading with Oveur he's the Amarr junkie! he'll shake things up so Amarr ships are king once again! as far as i know Tuxford is the one in charge of the "BALANCING" or so i have been led to believe anyway. i think its horrible that they let something like this bad balance just drift by them without even a single recognition that they will atleast look at it in the close future(i.e not in 6months time.) just the thought of Amarr being forced to use slave weapons to do more dmg and to be able to tank better is a outrage imho and a testament to what the one who is doing the balancing really are playing on his private account. fact still remains that the devs havent recognized this grave inaccuracy of imbalance, infact they made gallente able to tank better while doing more dmg and they still havent done anything to sort out the wtfpwn mobile called the dominix. now gallente have 2 great shortgame battleships, Amarr got none that can compete at close range in a real game enviroment. being able to do about equal dmg doesnt matter if one ship can suck up all that dmg and deal equal if not better dmg back at the same time while you cannot tank equally good. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.01 13:24:00 -
[221 ]
bump
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.01 13:38:00 -
[222 ]
Originally by: Rockbox Today I fitted out a Completely T2 Maller with Projectiles (220mm AC) it pwned and I hade a nice 1600mm plated tank Amarr the only race where you spec another races guns to use the ships better this is because -10% laser cap reduction bonus means NOTHING its just a wasted bonus. lasers should have more base damage since they waste a bonus on every ship
Rina Shanu
Posted - 2006.06.01 15:39:00 -
[223 ]
yes yes yes we need some love. it has to be sensible though. better thin to do is work the ratios a little imhoRECRUITING
Brother Tycho
Posted - 2006.06.01 15:54:00 -
[224 ]
heres how i would fix amarr take out the cap use bonus add a cap use on repair bonus, raise laser dmg alot and reduce rate of fire alot. laser dps stays the same but cap use drops and we can do away with the wasted bonus slot a reduction to cap use on repair activation or a reduction in repair duration would be better. good tanking and sloooow fireing big dmg guns would rock hard. -------------[B«+tHd« T¦¦H+]------------- åå Spreading the good word since beta åå
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.01 15:54:00 -
[225 ]
Originally by: Rina Shanu yes yes yes we need some love. it has to be sensible though. better thin to do is work the ratios a little imho imho the cap use on the guns need to start coming down to sensible levels and not waste a ship bonus. that would be a start. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.01 17:13:00 -
[226 ]
Bump for the causeNova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.06.01 17:51:00 -
[227 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 01/06/2006 17:52:31 Originally by: Sniser this is because -10% laser cap reduction bonus means NOTHING its just a wasted bonus. lasers should have more base damage since they waste a bonus on every ship This is absolutely incorrect. The -10% laser cap reduction is the *ONLY* thing that allows lasers to function, especially large ones. I believe Meridius crunched the numbers and showed that 8 Tachys without the bonus uses the same cap as 2 LAR. That is not inconsiderable. Getting rid of the capacitor bonus on the Apoc would be a real step in the right direction. If the Apoc MUST be a tanking ship then give it a 7.5% bonus to Armor resists or a bonus to Armor amount so that it has a built in equivalent to 2 or 3 1600 plates. That would be fairly balanced considering that it's damage output is so poor. I think 7.5% per level is a requirement for armor resists as the Maller and Prophecy show that 5% just isn't enough. Like the Brutix, 5% just let you die while 7.5% provides enough to make a noticeable difference. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Ganandorf
Posted - 2006.06.01 19:09:00 -
[228 ]
The 10% per lvl reduction in cap needs IS a useless bonus since it's a bonus you need to use your racial weapons which is just absurd. It'd be the same like giving siege launchers 100 CPU a pop and putting a ''10% reduction in siege launcher CPU needs per level'' bonus on the raven
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.01 20:03:00 -
[229 ]
Edited by: Godar Marak on 01/06/2006 20:03:16 Instead of the changes they made to the blasters projectiles, they should have removed a damage bonus on the ships and replaced them with -10% reduction in blaster cap use.
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.02 00:29:00 -
[230 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Edited by: Nyxus on 01/06/2006 17:52:31 Originally by: Sniser this is because -10% laser cap reduction bonus means NOTHING its just a wasted bonus. lasers should have more base damage since they waste a bonus on every ship This is absolutely incorrect. The -10% laser cap reduction is the *ONLY* thing that allows lasers to function, especially large ones. I believe Meridius crunched the numbers and showed that 8 Tachys without the bonus uses the same cap as 2 LAR. That is not inconsiderable. Getting rid of the capacitor bonus on the Apoc would be a real step in the right direction. If the Apoc MUST be a tanking ship then give it a 7.5% bonus to Armor resists or a bonus to Armor amount so that it has a built in equivalent to 2 or 3 1600 plates. That would be fairly balanced considering that it's damage output is so poor. I think 7.5% per level is a requirement for armor resists as the Maller and Prophecy show that 5% just isn't enough. Like the Brutix, 5% just let you die while 7.5% provides enough to make a noticeable difference. Nyxus maybe apoc need change his bonus from cap to armor but that doesnt fix the problem apoc still will be better with projectiles than megabeams. -10% cap reduction is a wasted bonus, so if it enable to use such weapons they need have a bonus on them already. for example: if we make blaster and railgun use the same cap as laser and we give the -10% cap reduction on those ships mega would have only 25% dmg hybrids and -10% cap red also domi would have only -10% cap red also dmg/armor for drones.. that doesnt sound fair right? for amarr doesnt sound fair too :)
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.02 04:13:00 -
[231 ]
stop this nerfing talk of other ships, only one that needs a slapping is how the domi works and that can possibly be done with a fix to ECM. lets compare how ship bonuses work between the Apoc and another tier2 BS the Apoc Quote: Special Ability: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per level. thats 2 bonuses right. now the Mega Quote: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level. thats also 2 bonuses wich one got useful bonuses and not one that is just put on there since the old times when tachyons were silly ppl used them on everything. fix cap use more inline with what other races have on their guns and give Amarr a working bonus to their ships. be it whatever aslong as it makes the Apoc shine in some way as it should. also dmg output on crystals or make explosive crystals with thermal and explosive dmg on them available. as i said before i dont want much extra dmg i just want to be able to do a somewhat varied dmg since EM/Thermal combo is the most resisted dmg on average and for minmatar that is the highset ones. so shooting the minmatar HAC's with Amarr weapons is pretty much fruitless at times since they got those resists up over the 90's or make the Amarr ships get the resists that minmatar can do to up over 90's, but that wouldnt work now would it. btw.. still no word from the powers that be, amazing isnt it? Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.02 04:30:00 -
[232 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 02/06/2006 04:35:22 Originally by: Sniser this is because -10% laser cap reduction bonus means NOTHING its just a wasted bonus. lasers should have more base damage since they waste a bonus on every ship This is absolutely incorrect. The -10% laser cap reduction is the *ONLY* thing that allows lasers to function, especially large ones. I believe Meridius crunched the numbers and showed that 8 Tachys without the bonus uses the same cap as 2 LAR. That is not inconsiderable. Getting rid of the capacitor bonus on the Apoc would be a real step in the right direction. If the Apoc MUST be a tanking ship then give it a 7.5% bonus to Armor resists or a bonus to Armor amount so that it has a built in equivalent to 2 or 3 1600 plates. That would be fairly balanced considering that it's damage output is so poor. I think 7.5% per level is a requirement for armor resists as the Maller and Prophecy show that 5% just isn't enough. Like the Brutix, 5% just let you die while 7.5% provides enough to make a noticeable difference. Nyxus maybe apoc need change his bonus from cap to armor but that doesnt fix the problem apoc still will be better with projectiles than megabeams. -10% cap reduction is a wasted bonus, so if it enable to use such weapons they need have a bonus on them already. for example: if we make blaster and railgun use the same cap as laser and we give the -10% cap reduction on those ships mega would have only 25% dmg hybrids and -10% cap red also domi would have only -10% cap red also dmg/armor for drones.. that doesnt sound fair right? for amarr doesnt sound fair too :) Why dont the ammar get it themselves? I am gallente, i get a damagebonus and we use hybrid guns. 1.00 dmgmod * 1.25dmgbonus = 1.25 Damage now ammar: I am ammar, i have a build-in damagemod and thus i get a capreduction, because i fire PURE energy. 1.25 dmgmod = 1.25 dmg, but with capreduction They dev's just thought it was cool that minmatar had rof and dmgbonus, so they only did good damage on minmatar ships. They also gave gallente a damagemod so they were only usefull on ships with damagebonus. The ammar got a build-in, BUILD-IN whats that? BUILD-IN damagemod and a capreduction, to make sure they got fitted on ammar ship they gave them high capusage and big PG usage. Ok ammar get there damagemod reduced by 25% and capusage reduced by 50%, and they get a +25% damagemod on the ship. Congratulations retards, now you have exactly the same bonusses as the tempest for the armageddon and the apoc is nearly a megathron, but than with loads of cap, more optimal, more tankability, easier fitting specs and relativly better tracking. I just find it retarded that before the changes even strike ammar whine. cant you wait and test atleast 6 months after the patch. Whining istn the i-win button, the fact dev's listen (for gallente this took 2 years) is just great. Especially all these stupid calculations i saw about people trying to "prove" that railguns do more damage on a apoc than tachyon... _________________________________________________
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.06.02 04:56:00 -
[233 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 02/06/2006 04:35:22 Getting rid of the capacitor bonus on the Apoc would be a real step in the right direction. If the Apoc MUST be a tanking ship then give it a 7.5% bonus to Armor resists or a bonus to Armor amount so that it has a built in equivalent to 2 or 3 1600 plates. That would be fairly balanced considering that it's damage output is so poor. Listen French boy. It's more then clear u never fired the tachs of an Apoc and see how your cap drys faster the u can say fly. The cap bonus it's the only thing that alows the Apoc 2 use it's guns and tank. Else we woud need NOS just 2 keep all the guns runing. And if u think i'm wrong.Get abord a geddon fill it whit tachs and open fire now and tell me how many BS can u kill whidout taking a recharge break or using nos. And i mean week rat BS. Do this and then post for now keep your big moth shut - if u can.
Kitty O'Shay
Posted - 2006.06.02 05:08:00 -
[234 ]
To shamelessly quote myself: Originally by: Kitty O'Shay I see another reason for the current cap use of lasers (and the ship bonus for it) was to keep lasers off other racial ship. It's before my time, but I've seen references to "Tachys on everything." The nerfing of lasers was a result of this, correct? So Amarr ships paid for the overpoweredness of lasers with the second bonus being made to allow the massive cap use and still function. Maybe it's time to look into this? So... Halve laser cap use, make multifrequency have a slight (5%) cap penalty, and give the ships a proper damage bonus. (The Omen/Geddon/etc with a ROF bonus could get a tracking bonus, to go with the ROF.) Those changes plus a tweak of the Gamma, Ultraviolet, and Radio crystal em/thermal ratio would go a long ways towards improving Amarr ship damage. --Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals!
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.02 06:03:00 -
[235 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Edited by: Nyxus on 01/06/2006 17:52:31 The -10% laser cap reduction is the *ONLY* thing that allows lasers to function, especially large ones. I believe Meridius crunched the numbers and showed that 8 Tachys without the bonus uses the same cap as 2 LAR. That is not inconsiderable. Getting rid of the capacitor bonus on the Apoc would be a real step in the right direction. If the Apoc MUST be a tanking ship then give it a 7.5% bonus to Armor resists or a bonus to Armor amount so that it has a built in equivalent to 2 or 3 1600 plates. That would be fairly balanced considering that it's damage output is so poor. I think 7.5% per level is a requirement for armor resists as the Maller and Prophecy show that 5% just isn't enough. Like the Brutix, 5% just let you die while 7.5% provides enough to make a noticeable difference. Nyxus Improve laser damage by 10%. Change rof bonuses from Omen and geddon to damage bonuses. Keep them in reasonable DPS and also reserve a bit of cap for them. Inscrease geddon CPU/Grid/cap to 480/17000/4500, this make it slightly easier to fit and can fire a bit longer. Change the Apoc cap bonus to 5% or 7.5% armor resistants, I'm fine with both, at least we can see a tanker there and together with the laser damage inscrease, a bit of fire power for it. Inscrease CPU/Grid/Cap to 520/22000/5200 and add a low power slot for Apoc. We need some CPU to fit something, remember that even tach having lower CPU than 425mm for example, but we need 8 guns on it and not 7. Grid inscrease is essential, why Apoc cant fit full rack of Tachs without RCU II, 8 Tachs II with Advanced Weapons Upgrade still need 29700 grid and the total power output only still at 27500, still short of grid but at least we can do something there, but it is totally ridiculous as now we have only 24375 grid and need 2 RCU II to properly fit it with 8 Tachs and a large rep, not to mention that right now we cant even fit enough 8 Mega beams and a large rep without one RCU. And Amarr ships do need cap as their guns are thirst for cap. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.02 06:49:00 -
[236 ]
Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/06/2006 06:49:15 Originally by: Malken btw.. still no word from the powers that be, amazing isnt it? I suspect they are still in phaze one......scratching their heads while finally coming to the conclusion that we are right.
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.02 07:35:00 -
[237 ]
Originally by: MacQueen Originally by: Nyxus Edited by: Nyxus on 01/06/2006 17:52:31 The -10% laser cap reduction is the *ONLY* thing that allows lasers to function, especially large ones. I believe Meridius crunched the numbers and showed that 8 Tachys without the bonus uses the same cap as 2 LAR. That is not inconsiderable. Getting rid of the capacitor bonus on the Apoc would be a real step in the right direction. If the Apoc MUST be a tanking ship then give it a 7.5% bonus to Armor resists or a bonus to Armor amount so that it has a built in equivalent to 2 or 3 1600 plates. That would be fairly balanced considering that it's damage output is so poor. I think 7.5% per level is a requirement for armor resists as the Maller and Prophecy show that 5% just isn't enough. Like the Brutix, 5% just let you die while 7.5% provides enough to make a noticeable difference. Nyxus Improve laser damage by 10%. Change rof bonuses from Omen and geddon to damage bonuses. Keep them in reasonable DPS and also reserve a bit of cap for them. Inscrease geddon CPU/Grid/cap to 480/17000/4500, this make it slightly easier to fit and can fire a bit longer. Change the Apoc cap bonus to 5% or 7.5% armor resistants, I'm fine with both, at least we can see a tanker there and together with the laser damage inscrease, a bit of fire power for it. Inscrease CPU/Grid/Cap to 520/22000/5200 and add a low power slot for Apoc. We need some CPU to fit something, remember that even tach having lower CPU than 425mm for example, but we need 8 guns on it and not 7. Grid inscrease is essential, why Apoc cant fit full rack of Tachs without RCU II, 8 Tachs II with Advanced Weapons Upgrade still need 29700 grid and the total power output only still at 27500, still short of grid but at least we can do something there, but it is totally ridiculous as now we have only 24375 grid and need 2 RCU II to properly fit it with 8 Tachs and a large rep, not to mention that right now we cant even fit enough 8 Mega beams and a large rep without one RCU. And Amarr ships do need cap as their guns are thirst for cap. the biggest problem for being able to tank and do dmg at the same time is the thirst of the guns. minmatars dont have this problem, caldari dont have this problem and gallente dont have this problem. we who fly amarr ships can do one or the other somewhat decent but if we do both at the same time like anyone else do we are inferior at both due to running out of cap so fast that it is silly. and the dmg output isnt anywhere near what the other races Tier2 BS can do. and dont start screaming about the geddon, it got nerfed to stoneage in dmg output and cant tank anywhere near what you can do on a domi and the domi can still push out good dmg at the same time. geddon was good for dmg before the stacking nerf and it was the thing that made it usable but it didnt have a tank to do that damage then. a geddon today is a neutered dmg dealer that still cant tank. fix cap use on amarr guns and change emphasis to thermal dmg on crystals/relese explosive crystals. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Nadec Ascand
Posted - 2006.06.02 08:32:00 -
[238 ]
stop thinking as if Rail dont use cap... it cost us 30 cap a shot so 210 cap a volley.. (control burst 5 T2 weapon T2 ammo for dmg) and it cost you more 35 cap a shot 285 a volley ... but did u remind having far more cap and dont using mwd. If u cant fit something u want in a ship thats ur fitting is wrong change it do a bit of thinking. Mega is one of the worst ship to fit. This make me think BS should be hard to fit so we dont see evry time the same fitting and dont just "its a mega stay outside 15km and u safe use 20km scrambler" or something like that (BTW dual 250rail mega is scray ^^)
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.02 09:00:00 -
[239 ]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand stop thinking as if Rail dont use cap... it cost us 30 cap a shot so 210 cap a volley.. (control burst 5 T2 weapon T2 ammo for dmg) and it cost you more 35 cap a shot 285 a volley ... but did u remind having far more cap and dont using mwd. If u cant fit something u want in a ship thats ur fitting is wrong change it do a bit of thinking. Mega is one of the worst ship to fit. This make me think BS should be hard to fit so we dont see evry time the same fitting and dont just "its a mega stay outside 15km and u safe use 20km scrambler" or something like that (BTW dual 250rail mega is scray ^^) Assuming of Electornic level 5, Engineering level 5, Weapons Upgrade 5, no Advance weapon Upgrade. Using basic compare on snipping set up: Megathron: 7x 425mm Railgun II Total CPU output: 687.50 TF Total powergrid output: 19375 MW Total CPU need for guns: 404.25 TF Total Grid need for guns: 18375 MW Apocalyse: 8 Tachyon Beam Laser II Total CPU output: 625 TF Total Powergrid output: 24375 MW Total CPU need for guns: 378 TF Total Grid need for guns: 33000 MW Conclusion: after fitting guns Megathron have: 283.25 TF CPU and 1000 MW grid remaining for other mods Apocalyse have : 247 tf CPU remaining and ...8625 MW SHORT of grid. Now tell me what's the hardest. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Brazero
Posted - 2006.06.02 09:02:00 -
[240 ]
There is only one Amarr ship worth flying atm, and that ship isn't for all and everyone to have. The rest is crap, they all need more grid, some need more cpu, and all weapons needs a major overhaul. It's simple as that. And alot of you ppl should stop all this number crunching, just train the skills needed and slap on your setup. **** the numbers, they don't mean ****.
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.02 09:15:00 -
[241 ]
Originally by: Brazero There is only one Amarr ship worth flying atm, and that ship isn't for all and everyone to have. The rest is crap, they all need more grid, some need more cpu, and all weapons needs a major overhaul. It's simple as that. And alot of you ppl should stop all this number crunching, just train the skills needed and slap on your setup. **** the numbers, they don't mean ****. Well, the fact is we're living in a mathematical world, I cant buy a car with less than the exact number of money that the buyer asked for or the buyer cant give me a car with less than the exact number of wheels that I'm paying for. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Nadec Ascand
Posted - 2006.06.02 09:27:00 -
[242 ]
Originally by: Brazero There is only one Amarr ship worth flying atm, and that ship isn't for all and everyone to have. The rest is crap, they all need more grid, some need more cpu, and all weapons needs a major overhaul. It's simple as that. And alot of you ppl should stop all this number crunching, just train the skills needed and slap on your setup. **** the numbers, they don't mean ****. The thing i find the more funny with that is that nobody did complain before the gallente boost (why call it gallente when even amarr did get a dmg boost ...) Evrybody did agree megatron needed a patch... And now by a magical way evry amarr wich were alllllllll that great become crap... /me start to wonder if amarr dont whine only coz they dont like fair fight. I promise will only fly cruiser (yeah shuttle are too hard to lock) with no tank to please you.
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.02 09:44:00 -
[243 ]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand The thing i find the more funny with that is that nobody did complain before the gallente boost (why call it gallente when even amarr did get a dmg boost ...) Because in the past Amarr has only gotten nerfed, and everyone else has gotten a boost? You----------------------------------------------->the point
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.02 09:52:00 -
[244 ]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand Originally by: Brazero There is only one Amarr ship worth flying atm, and that ship isn't for all and everyone to have. The rest is crap, they all need more grid, some need more cpu, and all weapons needs a major overhaul. It's simple as that. And alot of you ppl should stop all this number crunching, just train the skills needed and slap on your setup. **** the numbers, they don't mean ****. The thing i find the more funny with that is that nobody did complain before the gallente boost (why call it gallente when even amarr did get a dmg boost ...) Evrybody did agree megatron needed a patch... And now by a magical way evry amarr wich were alllllllll that great become crap... /me start to wonder if amarr dont whine only coz they dont like fair fight. I promise will only fly cruiser (yeah shuttle are too hard to lock) with no tank to please you. Did I said I dont agreed on Gallente boost ?? And pls think back about what's fair fight to you. But you had the point, Amarr will only wtfpwn untanked tech I cruiser when using their BS. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.02 10:09:00 -
[245 ]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand Originally by: Brazero There is only one Amarr ship worth flying atm, and that ship isn't for all and everyone to have. The rest is crap, they all need more grid, some need more cpu, and all weapons needs a major overhaul. It's simple as that. And alot of you ppl should stop all this number crunching, just train the skills needed and slap on your setup. **** the numbers, they don't mean ****. The thing i find the more funny with that is that nobody did complain before the gallente boost (why call it gallente when even amarr did get a dmg boost ...) Evrybody did agree megatron needed a patch... And now by a magical way evry amarr wich were alllllllll that great become crap... /me start to wonder if amarr dont whine only coz they dont like fair fight. I promise will only fly cruiser (yeah shuttle are too hard to lock) with no tank to please you. yes i did complain about the Dominix before the boost to gallente. wich was a valid complaint if they ever get the thumb out and fixes it. and i never said that the mega didnt need the boost, i said that now with everyone else can do the tank+shoot better then the amarr BS i think its time for a serious look at the amarr BS and then foremost the Apoc wich infact is better off doing the tank+dmg being fitted with autocannons. wouldnt you be depressed if you had to fit amarr guns on you mega to be able to get anywhere close to a level playing field? Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
tookar
Posted - 2006.06.02 13:31:00 -
[246 ]
I fly amarr and have reasonable skills . In my experience most amarr ships (i dont fly hacs) are in a losing situation in almost any combat except fleet combat vs a same skilled player . The fact that we are predominantly mid ranged is crap as NO combat takes place at this range , our tanking is not the best anymore and even so gank>tank in almost all circumstances . My caldari alt has 2mil less sp than me and pwns tookar in any standard setup . nuff said!
Apolyon I
Posted - 2006.06.02 15:10:00 -
[247 ]
Originally by: tookar I fly amarr and have reasonable skills . In my experience most amarr ships (i dont fly hacs) are in a losing situation in almost any combat except fleet combat vs a same skilled player . The fact that we are predominantly mid ranged is crap as NO combat takes place at this range , our tanking is not the best anymore and even so gank>tank in almost all circumstances . My caldari alt has 2mil less sp than me and pwns tookar in any standard setup . nuff said! Geddon should take well care of raven in that case, it main damage type is EM and the Raven is shield tanked so Raven should be weak on EM and Ther. Of course unless the raven warp in less than 1km then your guns will have a bit of tracking problem.
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.02 15:45:00 -
[248 ]
Originally by: Apolyon I Originally by: tookar I fly amarr and have reasonable skills . In my experience most amarr ships (i dont fly hacs) are in a losing situation in almost any combat except fleet combat vs a same skilled player . The fact that we are predominantly mid ranged is crap as NO combat takes place at this range , our tanking is not the best anymore and even so gank>tank in almost all circumstances . My caldari alt has 2mil less sp than me and pwns tookar in any standard setup . nuff said! Geddon should take well care of raven in that case, it main damage type is EM and the Raven is shield tanked so Raven should be weak on EM and Ther. Of course unless the raven warp in less than 1km then your guns will have a bit of tracking problem. the raven can tank dmg, geddon cant tank as well because if he has a tank fitted he cant do enough dmg and tank at the same time like a raven can, neither can the Apoc. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.02 15:47:00 -
[249 ]
I'm suprised so many people dont know this. Prooves one thing, they dont fly Amarr and thus shouldnt even post in this thread .
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.02 16:01:00 -
[250 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 02/06/2006 16:02:10 Originally by: General Apocalypse Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 02/06/2006 04:35:22 Getting rid of the capacitor bonus on the Apoc would be a real step in the right direction. If the Apoc MUST be a tanking ship then give it a 7.5% bonus to Armor resists or a bonus to Armor amount so that it has a built in equivalent to 2 or 3 1600 plates. That would be fairly balanced considering that it's damage output is so poor. Listen French boy. It's more then clear u never fired the tachs of an Apoc and see how your cap drys faster the u can say fly. The cap bonus it's the only thing that alows the Apoc 2 use it's guns and tank. Else we woud need NOS just 2 keep all the guns runing. And if u think i'm wrong.Get abord a geddon fill it whit tachs and open fire now and tell me how many BS can u kill whidout taking a recharge break or using nos. And i mean week rat BS. Do this and then post for now keep your big moth shut - if u can. Nah, You cant even read so i wont shut up. Gallente has a damagemodbonus, ammar has a capbonus. But in the end they have about the same dps. What i said was that IF ammar wants a bigger damagemod than they have to lose the -50% capusage and get a +25%bonus, ALSO the capusage on the standard gun also gets halved (ending up with the same). IF this makes you happy, ok. Because thats whats everyone is whining about, more damage. Pointing @ the capbonus and saying thats crap, thats stupid the damagemod is BUILD IN. _________________________________________________
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.02 16:20:00 -
[251 ]
Edited by: MacQueen on 02/06/2006 16:24:16 Edited by: MacQueen on 02/06/2006 16:22:40 Originally by: madaluap Nah, You cant even read so i wont shut up. Gallente has a damagemodbonus, ammar has a capbonus. But in the end they have about the same dps. What i said was that IF ammar wants a bigger damagemod than they have to lose the -50% capusage and get a +25%bonus, ALSO the capusage on the standard gun also gets halved (ending up with the same). IF this makes you happy, ok. Because thats whats everyone is whining about, more damage. Pointing @ the capbonus and saying thats crap, thats stupid the damagemod is BUILD IN. Its true that the Laser do have both built in tracking and damage bonus, but does it good enough??? The geddon still need the rof bonus to make it a reasonable ganking ship by the total expense of the capacitor and the Apoc do have the extra cap bonus at the cost of worst average DPS on any BS. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.02 16:21:00 -
[252 ]
[quote-/quote] Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Tiuwaz
Posted - 2006.06.02 16:25:00 -
[253 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Nadec Ascand The thing i find the more funny with that is that nobody did complain before the gallente boost (why call it gallente when even amarr did get a dmg boost ...) Because in the past Amarr has only gotten nerfed, and everyone else has gotten a boost? You----------------------------------------------->the point again that desinformation >_> when was the last time when amarr got nerfed? back in the dark ages when even ravens fitted tachyons? the last change to amarr was a 4% dmg boost to tachs no nerf, and yes i know you dont care about tachs, they are still amarr tho Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
PriceCheckMax
Posted - 2006.06.02 16:38:00 -
[254 ]
Edited by: PriceCheckMax on 02/06/2006 16:38:14 Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Nadec Ascand The thing i find the more funny with that is that nobody did complain before the gallente boost (why call it gallente when even amarr did get a dmg boost ...) Because in the past Amarr has only gotten nerfed, and everyone else has gotten a boost ? You----------------------------------------------->the point again that desinformation >_> when was the last time when amarr got nerfed? back in the dark ages when even ravens fitted tachyons? the last change to amarr was a 4% dmg boost to tachs no nerf, and yes i know you dont care about tachs, they are still amarr tho
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:05:00 -
[255 ]
Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/06/2006 17:06:32 Originally by: Tiuwaz again that desinformation >_> when was the last time when amarr got nerfed? back in the dark ages when even ravens fitted tachyons? 2005 I belive it was, not to mention the stacking penatly hit Amarrians the hardest. Pre rmr most of us were fine with the way things were. Quote: the last change to amarr was a 4% dmg boost to tachs no nerf, and yes i know you dont care about tachs, they are still amarr tho A small 4% doesnt mean anything while you still need to gimp most setups being able to fit t2 tachs .....and dont say cap bonus on the apoc, pretty please.
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:06:00 -
[256 ]
Originally by: PriceCheckMax Edited by: PriceCheckMax on 02/06/2006 16:38:14 Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Nadec Ascand The thing i find the more funny with that is that nobody did complain before the gallente boost (why call it gallente when even amarr did get a dmg boost ...) Because in the past Amarr has only gotten nerfed, and everyone else has gotten a boost ? You----------------------------------------------->the point again that desinformation >_> when was the last time when amarr got nerfed? back in the dark ages when even ravens fitted tachyons? the last change to amarr was a 4% dmg boost to tachs no nerf, and yes i know you dont care about tachs, they are still amarr tho You figured out how to use the quote funciton, well done.
Elve Sorrow
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:07:00 -
[257 ]
The cap bonus, and the supposedly large cap Amarr ships have is fairly useless anyway - When everyone runs Cap 800 Boosters on their closerange setups, even the ships with ****tiest cap can run the same tank as the supposedly best tanker, the Apoc as long as they have charges. And the Apoc needs charges too when it wants a decent setup.
Tiuwaz
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:17:00 -
[258 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/06/2006 17:06:32 Originally by: Tiuwaz again that desinformation >_> when was the last time when amarr got nerfed? back in the dark ages when even ravens fitted tachyons? 2005 I belive it was, not to mention the stacking penatly hit Amarrians the hardest. Pre rmr most of us were fine with the way things were. that was a "general" nerf that affected everyone who used to fill his lowslots with dmg mods, i would go so far to say that it hurt artillery the most, as their rof is incredibly bad and loads of dmg mods helped that a bit as well as getting the most out of alpha strike the redeeming feature of arties Originally by: Godar Marak Quote: the last change to amarr was a 4% dmg boost to tachs no nerf, and yes i know you dont care about tachs, they are still amarr tho A small 4% doesnt mean anything while you still need to gimp most setups being able to fit t2 tachs .....and dont say cap bonus on the apoc, pretty please. its still a boost which was brought up to your desinformation about "only amarr nerfs", the only nerff you mentioned affected everyone, those with plenty of low slots more, i give you that its still not an amarr nerf tachs are as far as i know the highest dps guns ingame, therefore they also should be the hardest to fit, given the huge amount of lows you usually have 1-2 fitting mods dont hurt that much (unless you want to absolutely tank your long range BS >_>) Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:28:00 -
[259 ]
Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/06/2006 17:29:05 Originally by: Tiuwaz its still a boost which was brought up to your desinformation about "only amarr nerfs", the only nerff you mentioned affected everyone, those with plenty of low slots more, i give you that its still not an amarr nerf You are right, its not a Amarr only nerf. But as you mentioned in the end there, it affected ships the most that has a slot layout like Amarr ships have. Quote: tachs are as far as i know the highest dps guns ingame, therefore they also should be the hardest to fit, given the huge amount of lows you usually have 1-2 fitting mods dont hurt that much Uhh are you saying a t2 tach will hit harder than a t2 howie? Quote: (unless you want to absolutely tank your long range BS >_>) Ok, so the apoc is a long range bs...and the geddon is a medium range bs. Yet the other races has long-medium and shortrange bs's. Get within 9000meters of an amarr bs and you wont get hit much. And as far as the medium and long range arguement, maybe we should get a race specific Amarr warpcrambler that has a 40-100km range?
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:28:00 -
[260 ]
Originally by: Tiuwaz its still a boost which was brought up to your desinformation about "only amarr nerfs", the only nerff you mentioned affected everyone, those with plenty of low slots more, i give you that its still not an amarr nerf tachs are as far as i know the highest dps guns ingame, therefore they also should be the hardest to fit, given the huge amount of lows you usually have 1-2 fitting mods dont hurt that much (unless you want to absolutely tank your long range BS >_>) Tach still not superior in long range DPS nor reaching the highest range of sniper. So, you mean we have to sacrify 2 of our low slots just to be a fair snipper and those good sniper dont have to ??? ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Tiuwaz
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:35:00 -
[261 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Quote: tachs are as far as i know the highest DPS guns ingame, therefore they also should be the hardest to fit, given the huge amount of lows you usually have 1-2 fitting mods dont hurt that much Uhh are you saying a t2 tach will hit harder than a t2 howie? I highlighted and bolded the important part, another hint is that howis are the worst dps guns ingame, if i have to explain what dps is then we better stop discussing here Originally by: Godar Marak Quote: (unless you want to absolutely tank your long range BS >_>) Ok, so the apoc is a long range bs...and the geddon is a medium range bs. Yet the other races has long-medium and shortrange bs's. Get within 9000meters of an amarr bs and you wont hit much. And as far as the medium and long range arguement, maybe we should get a race specific Amarr warpcrambler that has a 40-100km range? i dont want to get too much into that as i have little experience with amarr bs at closerange, but 1 comment: everyone except gallente will try to fight at +10km for close range the tier3 BS are coming with kali perhaps one of your BS will get a closerange role then /no clue Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Masta Killa
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:39:00 -
[262 ]
I am also a hysterical little girl and I think amarr need to be boosted by 150%. I think amarr suck because i can't fit the amarr ships so i need ccp and TUX (HE WILL NOTICE AND BOOST AMARR BECAUSE I DID ALL THAT STUFF TO HIS NAME) to change them so i can fit them well without knowing anything or even thinking about how to fit it right because thinking makes my head hurt and when my head hurts i cry bitter tears of noobdom. --------------------------------------
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:42:00 -
[263 ]
Originally by: Tiuwaz I highlighted and bolded the important part You did what now where? Maybe its just my monitor but I see no letters in bold in the post I quoted you in. Quote: the tier3 BS are coming with kali perhaps one of your BS will get a closerange role then /no clue It would certainly make me happy.
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:43:00 -
[264 ]
Originally by: Masta Killa I am also a hysterical little girl Master of the obvious.
Tiuwaz
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:53:00 -
[265 ]
Originally by: Wheya I am sorry but I think the Amarr lobby is doing a terrible job with crappy arguments here. This doesnt mean I think everything is balanced, though. this sums up the whole week of horrible amarr threads also good post and i kinda agree with the EAN's Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Masta Killa
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:55:00 -
[266 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Masta Killa I am also a hysterical little girl Master of the obvious. Yes, you and I are the same. Neither can put any thought into his setup or tactics so we both need to cry on the forums, using arguments that are usually not even true. --------------------------------------
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.02 17:57:00 -
[267 ]
Originally by: Wheya Edited by: Wheya on 02/06/2006 17:53:12 Lasers by default have the best tracking. Numbers shamelessly grabbed from ingame market. Focused medium pulse I tracking speed: 0.072 Heavy pulse I tracking speed: 0.065 dual 180mm tracking speed: 0.132 220mm vulcan I tracking speed: 0.1175 425mm autocannon I tracking speed: 0.1065 Heavy electron blaster I tracking speed: 0.12 Heavy ion blaster I tracking speed: 0.11 Heavy neutron blaster I tracking speed: 0.1 Afaik the only amarr t1 ship with tracking bonus is destroyer. Sure they do nice damage, if you could fit them without using the extra low slot pair faction boni, and then some for cap.
Wheya
Posted - 2006.06.02 18:23:00 -
[268 ]
Yodohime Kibagami, my statement was lacking some more explanation. Lasers do always have the best tracking in optimal range aka range/tracking ratio. Of course blasters and autocannos have better tracking as an absolute number because they were designed to fire at a much shorter range and that's absolutely fine and balanced. The laser user want to keep some distance, the AC/blaster user wants to close up. They often meet somewhere in the middle if both use webifiers where AC/basters shoot in falloff range with higher base damage while pulse lasers fire below optimal range but often still not have tracking issues because the opponent is approaching at a very low speed when webbed (often with activated mwd and a huge sig penalty).
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.02 18:46:00 -
[269 ]
Originally by: Wheya Yodohime Kibagami, my statement was lacking some more explanation. Lasers do always have the best tracking in optimal range aka range/tracking ratio. Of course blasters and autocannos have better tracking as an absolute number because they were designed to fire at a much shorter range and that's absolutely fine and balanced. The laser user want to keep some distance, the AC/blaster user wants to close up. They often meet somewhere in the middle if both use webifiers where AC/basters shoot in falloff range with higher base damage while pulse lasers fire below optimal range but often still not have tracking issues because the opponent is approaching at a very low speed when webbed (often with activated mwd and a huge sig penalty). Yeah that makes more sense allthough a narrower area where you have worse tracking to sounds a little ackward, still I'm glad of the explanation behind the sentence that didnt look right. In the end its not really even the tracking that worries me of amarr guns, its their fitting requirement in relation to the powergrid offered on the ships they are supposed to be mounted. And the mandatory 10% less cap ship boni for fighting vessels that cuts down on the possible boni's they could have.
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.02 19:01:00 -
[270 ]
Originally by: Wheya Yodohime Kibagami, my statement was lacking some more explanation. Lasers do always have the best tracking in optimal range aka range/tracking ratio. Of course blasters and autocannos have better tracking as an absolute number because they were designed to fire at a much shorter range and that's absolutely fine and balanced. The laser user want to keep some distance, the AC/blaster user wants to close up. They often meet somewhere in the middle if both use webifiers where AC/basters shoot in falloff range with higher base damage while pulse lasers fire below optimal range but often still not have tracking issues because the opponent is approaching at a very low speed when webbed (often with activated mwd and a huge sig penalty). since you think that Amarr is so good and perfect now maybe you can explain why i am capable of doing better dmg and tank better and have a huge optimal when using autocannons on my apoc instead of beams or pulses. btw... i not only does more dmg i also does all dmg types. it is just so wrong. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.02 19:09:00 -
[271 ]
Originally by: Masta Killa I am also a hysterical little girl and I think amarr need to be boosted by 150%. I think amarr suck because i can't fit the amarr ships so i need ccp and TUX (HE WILL NOTICE AND BOOST AMARR BECAUSE I DID ALL THAT STUFF TO HIS NAME) to change them so i can fit them well without knowing anything or even thinking about how to fit it right because thinking makes my head hurt and when my head hurts i cry bitter tears of noobdom. wow, just wow... Did we do this in the blaster thread? I dont think so, so congrats at making yourself look like the ass you are...Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Heiken Wimast
Posted - 2006.06.02 19:50:00 -
[272 ]
Originally by: Wheya Lasers by default have the best damage output against unhardened targets. Yay, i'll shoot all containers to satisfy myself !!!
Wheya
Posted - 2006.06.02 20:34:00 -
[273 ]
Edited by: Wheya on 02/06/2006 20:40:45 Edited by: Wheya on 02/06/2006 20:37:08 Edited by: Wheya on 02/06/2006 20:35:46 Malken, an Apocalypse with projectile weapons is a valid choice. I've done the cap/sec calculations as well as the dmg against resistance calculations, too. IMHO best choice for Apo are 2 NOS and 2 missile launchers. Fill the other 4 slots with whatever you want, it won't make a huge difference. I do prefer Armageddon for large turrets and here lasers are the best choice and don't need a boost. Frigate sized lasers do have a huge disadvantage in PvP because of the high em base resistance. If people tank frigates then they use 200mm or even 400mm platings but not hardeners. A boost to lasers would have to be astronomical to get them balanced against other frigates weapons for 1:1. This problem exists for 3 years and did not suddenly appeared out of nowhere. I don't care. Frigate 1:1 is pointless anyway because my opponents will jamm me. T1 cruiser sized combat isn't my cup of tea, too. At least here we have the Arbitrator that can do all kinds of damage. Maller can be a nice support cruiser as an incredible tank with frig sized weapons. Maller could need a small boost but Tux already stated he would look into the powergrid issue of small and medium lasers. I don't care here as well because even than I would prefer Quad Beams or forcused beam/pulse because of cpu issues. Maller with projectile weapons are a valid option, too. At least we Amarr have the option to fit other races weapons on ships without turret bonus beside the cap bonus. We still have some tanking abilities in form of higher cap (if we dont use lasers) or higher resistance. When it comes to t2 cruisers I think Amarr ships are ok. I badly miss the RoF bonus for missiles on Sacrilege but now I sell them for 100m instead of 60m. Zealot, Curse, Pilgrim all are fine ships. Long range combat lasers with radio crystals do have a serious disadvantage because of EM damage. Sniping is not the amarrian way of combat but again you can fit 8 1400mm or 8 railguns on an Apo. Giving some more thermal damage would be a boost in the current situation but that's not really the problem. I am an Amarr roleplayer flying Amarr ships only. I know the problems of amarrian ships. I think you will understand that I am very interested when it comes to a fair balance for amarrian ships. When people like me or from PIE say the sky is not falling then we don't do that because we want weak amarrian ships. There is a difference between whining and good arguments. I do care about fair game balance. EAN + armor compensation skills are the reason that created an imbalance, not the boost to blasters or whatever. If you are clever you would try to convince some minnies that it also hurts their EMP damage output. Recruiting other whiners on IGS etc does not find my sympathy.
Kardim
Posted - 2006.06.02 20:39:00 -
[274 ]
i disagree that amarr ships should try to keep range, the way that pulses were redesigned calls for just the opposite, i love my crusader intensly, but i also feel it sucks, great dps mind u but its not practicle to use for pvp especially, npc'ing isnt so bad... but i feel sorry for ppl that dont have all relavent skills to lvl 5 so here are some optimals for medium pulse t2's (i wont even go into the stupidly sick pg needed for frig guns) and mind u all my skills releveant to small lasers/amarr frig/tracking etc.... blah blah are lvl 5, have been so for long time, and yes lasers have sucked for a long time and i just sucked it up because everything in eve comes in cycles, so i figures we had to be next, but no. Radio 12 km opt falloff is 2.5k doesnt matter as its not really a help at all... these work ok but there is not really a good way to stay at 12k when 2 inty's are at it and webbed, and also pure em dmg wont dent much nowadays. UV 6,562 m is not so bad and UV are a good for all type of crystal tho in a pvp situation u will die before u can dent armor more than likely, and i take this from experience. MF 3,750 m best dmg we can do and its good dmg (: if i ask the pilot that i happen to be in pvp with to stop his ship (tho he will be webbed also) and i only orbit him without my afterburner on, yes i miss inty's very very much with med pulse 2's with me orbiting at 3km and a/b on. i have lost countless crusaders to minmitar inty's that consistently hit me while i miss them amarr guns need a looking over, the ships also but long ago when we actually did good dmg and held our own in pvp they were ok because the dmg the guns did made up for the crappy cap bonus's (yes before they changed the pulses and crystals long long long ago), but everyone whined and we were wtfnerfbatpwned by tomb although the geddon was pretty uber but not all amarr were. i said earlier (few pages back) that when they changed lasers they did so around the geddon, and the bs's are still flyable tho they fall short very often in pvp, but the frigs and cruisers are what hurt mostly because of this. Their tracking is not good enough for their class of gun and their PG is too high for the ships you are supposed to fit them on. DMG is great in raw numbers but we dont land those numbers because a combination of cap, tracking, and new armor resists/EAN. Granted all you gall and mini ppl that never fly amarr look at the base description and crunch your numbers and go sheeet this looks better than mine, FLY it and you will see it does suck, i dont mean take a executioner out for 15 minutes and pwn a 2k rat in empire either, spend a week or two in her and feel the restrictions encompass u and u will be glad to go back to your ships.
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.02 21:02:00 -
[275 ]
Edited by: Yodohime Kibagami on 02/06/2006 21:02:52 Originally by: Wheya quote Props for good post
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.02 21:14:00 -
[276 ]
Originally by: Wheya I am an Amarr roleplayer flying Amarr ships only. If you had flown more than 1 race you would have had more credabilaty. Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.06.02 21:24:00 -
[277 ]
Not all Amarr ships are bad. But we have a preponderance of ships that just.....lack in comparison to other racial ships. Some are ship issues, some are weapon issues, some are underpowered bonus issues, some are a result of ammo imbalance, etc. Let's take a look at some of them.Passive Tanking Boost: Yes we needed a boost to tanking. But now, almost every ship in the game besides Caldari and some tempests passive armor tank. Where before 60% EM resist was manageable, it is common for armor tanks to have 75%+ resists to armor while not specifically kitting out to defend against Amarr.Ammo Distribution Imbalance: This goes hand in hand with the above issue. Range should be an advantage to lasers, especially in mid-long range. While other races have Carbonized Lead 12Exp/12Kin and Iron 12Kin/8Therm Amarr have Radio 20EM. Crystals should have an equitable EM/Therm split like all the other races, ESPECIALLY considering the boosts to passive tanking.Some gun fitting needs are too high: Medium Beam Lasers, Heavy Pulses - some of the Amarr weapons are WAY harder to fit than the racial Contemporaries.Some Amarr ships have the same grid/cpu layout as other racial ships that have weapons that are MUCH easier to mount: Whey does a crusader and claw both have 40pg base when the Crusader weapons are so much harder to fit?? Why does the Thrasher and Coercer have the same? Why are the Maller/Ruppie/Thorax so close in grid when lasers require so much grid more to fit? Why can a Mega fit a full rack of Neuts without a grid mod yet then Apoc can not fit a full rack of Tachys?Some Amarr non-damage bonuses need a boost: With stacking 5% per level of Armor resists isn't really enough to make a difference. It needs to be increased to at least 7.5% or make it not applicable to the stacking rules. Right now a brutix can tank just as well as a Prophecy yet has MUCH more damage potential and more mids and dronebay. Maller has the same problem. The "better" tanking just isn't appreciable in any noticeable way. The Apoc needs to lose a mostly useless cap bonus for an Armor Resist bonus as well. The Non-damage bonuses often need a larger percentage to be considered usefull. The recent brutix boost is a prime example of this.Lack of Mids, less useful lows: Mids largely determine PvP usefullness to some extent. Amarr have 2 ships with 1 mid, and many with only 2. In return we have (sometimes) an extra low that is much less useful overall. A Taranis with more mids and a dronebay is more useful than a Crusader becuase it does 90% of what a Sader can do, has a dronebay and an extra mid as well. Same with the Enyo and Retri.Useless ships, Khanid without a clue: WTH is an Omen supposed to be good at? If it's going to be a gunboat, let it do a crapload of damage and fit big guns. Right now like the Augorer its mostly useless. Khanid designs are 50/50 and therefore MASSIVELY inferior in the dps department. Let them spew missiles and armor tank. It's an interesting niche and provides DESPERATELY needed variety to Amarr ships. Right now Khanid ships are 90% inferior to other ships of thier class. Remember variety = interest = subscription retention. So this isn't comprehensive, but I think it's most of them. Individually not so large but HUGE in sum total. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.02 21:29:00 -
[278 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Not all Amarr ships are bad. But we have a preponderance of ships that just.....lack in comparison to other racial ships. Some are ship issues, some are weapon issues, some are underpowered bonus issues, some are a result of ammo imbalance, etc. Let's take a look at some of them.Passive Tanking Boost: Yes we needed a boost to tanking. But now, almost every ship in the game besides Caldari and some tempests passive armor tank. Where before 60% EM resist was manageable, it is common for armor tanks to have 75%+ resists to armor while not specifically kitting out to defend against Amarr.Ammo Distribution Imbalance: This goes hand in hand with the above issue. Range should be an advantage to lasers, especially in mid-long range. While other races have Carbonized Lead 12Exp/12Kin and Iron 12Kin/8Therm Amarr have Radio 20EM. Crystals should have an equitable EM/Therm split like all the other races, ESPECIALLY considering the boosts to passive tanking.Some gun fitting needs are too high: Medium Beam Lasers, Heavy Pulses - some of the Amarr weapons are WAY harder to fit than the racial Contemporaries.Some Amarr ships have the same grid/cpu layout as other racial ships that have weapons that are MUCH easier to mount: Whey does a crusader and claw both have 40pg base when the Crusader weapons are so much harder to fit?? Why does the Thrasher and Coercer have the same? Why are the Maller/Ruppie/Thorax so close in grid when lasers require so much grid more to fit? Why can a Mega fit a full rack of Neuts without a grid mod yet then Apoc can not fit a full rack of Tachys?Some Amarr non-damage bonuses need a boost: With stacking 5% per level of Armor resists isn't really enough to make a difference. It needs to be increased to at least 7.5% or make it not applicable to the stacking rules. Right now a brutix can tank just as well as a Prophecy yet has MUCH more damage potential and more mids and dronebay. Maller has the same problem. The "better" tanking just isn't appreciable in any noticeable way. The Apoc needs to lose a mostly useless cap bonus for an Armor Resist bonus as well. The Non-damage bonuses often need a larger percentage to be considered usefull. The recent brutix boost is a prime example of this.Lack of Mids, less useful lows: Mids largely determine PvP usefullness to some extent. Amarr have 2 ships with 1 mid, and many with only 2. In return we have (sometimes) an extra low that is much less useful overall. A Taranis with more mids and a dronebay is more useful than a Crusader becuase it does 90% of what a Sader can do, has a dronebay and an extra mid as well. Same with the Enyo and Retri.Useless ships, Khanid without a clue: WTH is an Omen supposed to be good at? If it's going to be a gunboat, let it do a crapload of damage and fit big guns. Right now like the Augorer its mostly useless. Khanid designs are 50/50 and therefore MASSIVELY inferior in the dps department. Let them spew missiles and armor tank. It's an interesting niche and provides DESPERATELY needed variety to Amarr ships. Right now Khanid ships are 90% inferior to other ships of thier class. Remember variety = interest = subscription retention. So this isn't comprehensive, but I think it's most of them. Individually not so large but HUGE in sum total. Nyxus EVE mail that post to ccp please. Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.02 21:55:00 -
[279 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Not all Amarr ships are bad. But we have a preponderance of ships that just.....lack in comparison to other racial ships. Some are ship issues, some are weapon issues, some are underpowered bonus issues, some are a result of ammo imbalance, etc. Let's take a look at some of them.Passive Tanking Boost: Yes we needed a boost to tanking. But now, almost every ship in the game besides Caldari and some tempests passive armor tank. Where before 60% EM resist was manageable, it is common for armor tanks to have 75%+ resists to armor while not specifically kitting out to defend against Amarr.Ammo Distribution Imbalance: This goes hand in hand with the above issue. Range should be an advantage to lasers, especially in mid-long range. While other races have Carbonized Lead 12Exp/12Kin and Iron 12Kin/8Therm Amarr have Radio 20EM. Crystals should have an equitable EM/Therm split like all the other races, ESPECIALLY considering the boosts to passive tanking.Some gun fitting needs are too high: Medium Beam Lasers, Heavy Pulses - some of the Amarr weapons are WAY harder to fit than the racial Contemporaries.Some Amarr ships have the same grid/cpu layout as other racial ships that have weapons that are MUCH easier to mount: Whey does a crusader and claw both have 40pg base when the Crusader weapons are so much harder to fit?? Why does the Thrasher and Coercer have the same? Why are the Maller/Ruppie/Thorax so close in grid when lasers require so much grid more to fit? Why can a Mega fit a full rack of Neuts without a grid mod yet then Apoc can not fit a full rack of Tachys?Some Amarr non-damage bonuses need a boost: With stacking 5% per level of Armor resists isn't really enough to make a difference. It needs to be increased to at least 7.5% or make it not applicable to the stacking rules. Right now a brutix can tank just as well as a Prophecy yet has MUCH more damage potential and more mids and dronebay. Maller has the same problem. The "better" tanking just isn't appreciable in any noticeable way. The Apoc needs to lose a mostly useless cap bonus for an Armor Resist bonus as well. The Non-damage bonuses often need a larger percentage to be considered usefull. The recent brutix boost is a prime example of this.Lack of Mids, less useful lows: Mids largely determine PvP usefullness to some extent. Amarr have 2 ships with 1 mid, and many with only 2. In return we have (sometimes) an extra low that is much less useful overall. A Taranis with more mids and a dronebay is more useful than a Crusader becuase it does 90% of what a Sader can do, has a dronebay and an extra mid as well. Same with the Enyo and Retri.Useless ships, Khanid without a clue: WTH is an Omen supposed to be good at? If it's going to be a gunboat, let it do a crapload of damage and fit big guns. Right now like the Augorer its mostly useless. Khanid designs are 50/50 and therefore MASSIVELY inferior in the dps department. Let them spew missiles and armor tank. It's an interesting niche and provides DESPERATELY needed variety to Amarr ships. Right now Khanid ships are 90% inferior to other ships of thier class. Remember variety = interest = subscription retention. So this isn't comprehensive, but I think it's most of them. Individually not so large but HUGE in sum total. Nyxus you should add, -10% cap laser reduction should mean something more than "we can fit those guns" those guns should do more damage than others because the others ships doesnt waste a bonus in all their ships
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.02 22:03:00 -
[280 ]
Second what imperial said, mail it to ccp, nice post :)
Meridius
Posted - 2006.06.02 22:17:00 -
[281 ]
Originally by: Sniser you should add, -10% cap laser reduction should mean something more than "we can fit those guns" those guns should do more damage than others because the others ships doesnt waste a bonus in all their ships Well the guns do have higher base normalized damage. I think it's more the ships that are broken and not so much the weaponry. RP involving Amarr being nothing but lasers and armor has to die. Amarr used to be 'the turret humping race' but now we have Amarr ships that have less turrets then Gallente/Minmatar. That is just retarded. - _____
Kyguard
Posted - 2006.06.02 23:05:00 -
[282 ]
Anyone telling you that Amarr are complete crap just wants a massive boost. Anyone telling you that Amarr are "fine", needs to stfu and go hump their caldari crap. A summary on Amarr: Frigates: Shuttle > Amarr frigates. They're hard to fit, ambiguous and have better versions of themselves in other races. Cruisers: Maller is a good tanking ship, it tanks just a bit better than the other cruisers. (Certainly needs an increased res bonus) Omen is the retarted child of the family. The auguror is its lesser twin. Arbitrator is a good ship. Why? It's a lesser/better copy of the Vexor. Battleships: Geddon is a good ship, it performs significantly less than the other tier1 BS when it comes to tanked targets. Still not a waste of a ship. Apocalypse is a good ship as well, however it severely lacks what other ships have - some solo'ing ability. It has no dmg bonus making for crappy DPS along with a **** dronebay. It's not the worst ship in the game, but it certainly gives you doubt on using it.. HACs: Zealot. No complains here apart from the general Amarr weakeness: Tracking Disruptors. Sacrilege is a sweet ship... If it costed 10M and was t1. In terms of Recons, it seems Tux got a little drunk when designing these and decided to hell with turrets! Now, you see Amarr are not bad, not good, just decent. However, they are the only race that can be completely destroyed and rendered useless by one EW mod. Giving explosive dmg to crystals would just be overpowered. EW mods should be looked at, specifically to lower TD's strength or increase optimal and tracking for pulses/beams. Fix our cruisers, since a rax just is that much sweeter with guns and drones. But really, the most important **** to Amarr are TDs. They are amarr bane. === God is on the side with the best arti
Parallax Error
Posted - 2006.06.02 23:07:00 -
[283 ]
The issues as I see them with Amarr ships, please note some of this touches on other issues. 1) Some of the fitting requirements are silly. Point in case are the Medium Beams and Heavy Beams. 2) The problem with damage now is not the lack of raw dps or tracking or cap use. It is a combination of crystals being changed so that their damage types were stacked more towards EM and the new tanking changes which make armour tanked EAN ships very popular. 3) Khanid ships being changed into slightly poorer copies of the Viziam/Carthum design. The fitting one, I can't be bothered to deal with here as its been succinctly put already. Suffice it to say, certain lasers have over the top powergrid requirements. The biggest Amarr problem currently is how the changes in tanking have pushed a lot more people to use an Energised Adaptive Nano 2 tank with a Damage Control thrown in. Who can blame most people? It's a very efficient form of tanking, provides good all round resists and leaves your mid slots open for EW. And this is where the crux of the problem lies. Whilst armour tanking with EAN's to keep your mid slots open for EW remains as the best option for the majority of cases, lasers are going to be a sub par weapon in more cases than any other weapon set. This has been made worse by the changes to ammo a while back, that skewed the EM/Therm ratio of crystals way in favour of EM damage. Instead of facing armour tanks with 60-65% EM resistance and similar for other damage types, the majority of armour tanks have now increased to 75% and beyond. Couple this with the EW changes which now make it more sensible to armour tank your ship and use as much EW as possible for most setups and whilst the Amarr ships have not been nerfed, the circumstances have dropped their effective dps from between a third to nearly half in an awful lot of cases. The Khanid ships, again I won't go into much detail here. I'd much rather see the armour tanking/missile primary weapon ships as at least they'd add an utterly new flavour to EVE. I've rambled a bit too much but my main point is that Amarr ships ahve not been nerfed as such, but the style of play has changed significantly enough in a direction that hurts lasers more than any other weapon type. On a side note, with regards to cap useage I'd much rather see the whole bonus to cap laser usage dropped. The cap usage of lasers dropped by 25% and a new bonus installed on all ships.
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.02 23:32:00 -
[284 ]
geddon: great ship, give it a little bit more cpu and it can even do solo to a limited extent apoc: loads of cap, kinda useless when you still need a capbooster to run a good tank in pvp, change cap bonus to resistance (i like the idea of changing resistance bonuses to 7.5% per level too ) maller/omen: lack grid majorly, either medium lasers need grid reduces a lot or both ships need 150ish more grid (5 lights for omen too please ) small and medium laser fitting imo need reducing or the ships need more fitting, the claw/crusader thing is a perfect example maybe a little damage increase too, they have less damage but this is apparently 'balanced' by having more range, this kinda works at bs level with slow ships but at cruiser and frig level... how long does it take a mwd'ing thorax to close that 5-6km where your lasers are in optimal to where his blasters are? same for frigs, taranis vs crusader, both likely to be in optimal (taranis should only have 2 mids too ¼_¼ ) in both of these cases you get a couple of seconds (if that) to shoot in your optimal before your target is, at which point you're out-tracked and out-damaged
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.02 23:55:00 -
[285 ]
Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sniser you should add, -10% cap laser reduction should mean something more than "we can fit those guns" those guns should do more damage than others because the others ships doesnt waste a bonus in all their ships Well the guns do have higher base normalized damage. I think it's more the ships that are broken and not so much the weaponry. RP involving Amarr being nothing but lasers and armor has to die. Amarr used to be 'the turret humping race' but now we have Amarr ships that have less turrets then Gallente/Minmatar. That is just retarded. when you do much better using projectiles than your own weapons in a maller/apoc, there is something wrong with lasers ;) even if you give to those ships 50% resist per level they still would be better with projectiles than lasers, do you see what i want say? if we have 2 types of weapons and we do the same damage but we waste less cap or 0 cap, then there is something wrong ;)
Cohkka
Posted - 2006.06.03 00:08:00 -
[286 ]
I'm too tired to read the whole thread. Anyone got a link to the post wich shows that AC Apoc does more damage than MP Apoc? Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5...
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 00:42:00 -
[287 ]
Originally by: Cohkka I'm too tired to read the whole thread. Anyone got a link to the post wich shows that AC Apoc does more damage than MP Apoc? im just going to show you i will bring the data from quickfit also i used max skills for everything except adv weapon gunnery is 4 Apocalypse with mega pulse t2 SHIP'S ATTRIBUTES : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Powergrid : 22938.0 / 25593.75 MW CPU : 615.5 / 625.0 tf Capacitor (regen) : 7875.0 Energy (519.9sec) Max Cap Regen : 37.11 per sec (approx.) Max Cap Needed : 94.184 per sec Velocity : 143.75 m/sec Signature : 400.0 m Target Range : 67500.0 m Scan Resolution : 114.0 mm ECCM Radar : 20.0 points Shield HP (regen) : 5217.45 (1830.0sec) Max Shield Regen : 7.13 per sec (approx.) Shield EM : 0.0 % Shield Explo : 60.0 % Shield Kinetic : 40.0 % Shield Thermal : 20.0 % Armor HP : 7500.0 Armor EM : 68.0 % Armor Explo : 68.0 % Armor Kinetic : 70.0 % Armor Thermal : 74.0 % Structure HP : 6641.25 Drone Capacity : 75.0 m3 Capacity : 0.0 Warp Max Distance : 530.8 AU Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Turret Slot / Launcher Slot <--- here i have an empty slot since im out cpu for another gun or nos Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Eutectic I Capacitor Charge Array N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Explosive Hardener I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Power Diagnostic System II <--- here i needed use it because nos wouldnt fit without it 5217 shield, 7.13/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/20/40/60 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=68/74/70/68 7560.0 cap, +35.63/s, -94.184/s <--- wow thats cool ;) 143.75 m/s Damage per second on Structure : 289.143 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) ------------------------------------------- Apocalypse with autocannons t2 SHIP'S ATTRIBUTES : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Powergrid : 19467.0 / 24375.0 MW CPU : 621.0 / 625.0 tf Capacitor (regen) : 7500.0 Energy (568.2sec) Max Cap Regen : 32.34 per sec (approx.) Max Cap Needed : 78.311 per sec Velocity : 143.75 m/sec Signature : 400.0 m Target Range : 67500.0 m Scan Resolution : 114.0 mm ECCM Radar : 20.0 points Shield HP (regen) : 4969.0 (2000.0sec) Max Shield Regen : 6.21 per sec (approx.) Shield EM : 0.0 % Shield Explo : 60.0 % Shield Kinetic : 40.0 % Shield Thermal : 20.0 % Armor HP : 7500.0 Armor EM : 68.0 % Armor Explo : 68.0 % Armor Kinetic : 70.0 % Armor Thermal : 74.0 % Structure HP : 6641.25 Drone Capacity : 75.0 m3 Capacity : 0.0 Warp Max Distance : 505.6 AU Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I <--- wow now i won another nos ! Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Eutectic I Capacitor Charge Array N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Explosive Hardener I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II <---- nice i dont need put the pdu so i win dps here Large Armor Repairer II <--- check this now i can use 2 large t2 instead the top named now i do much better tank Large Armor Repairer II 4969 shield, 6.21/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/20/40/60 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=68/74/70/68 7500.0 cap, +32.34/s, -78.311/s <-- wow now i use a lot less cap instead -94.184/s 143.75 m/s and well if i try use ammo T2 the difference is much much greater Damage per second on Structure : 278.644 (0.0 taking accuracy into account)
Masta Killa
Posted - 2006.06.03 01:32:00 -
[288 ]
Originally by: Rockbox wow, just wow... Did we do this in the blaster thread? I dont think so, so congrats at making yourself look like the ass you are... I do what I can to underline how pathetic it is to cry over something that's fine as it is. --------------------------------------
Bottled Brain
Posted - 2006.06.03 01:46:00 -
[289 ]
Originally by: Sniser *snip -5% turret cpu implant, engineering lvl5, electronics lvl5, weapon upgrades lvl5, advanced weapon upgrades lvl4 7 mega pulse t2, medium diminishing nos x5 proto web, faint warp disruptor, hypnos multispec, heavy cap booster 2 large rep t2, 2 hardener t2, 1 t1 hardener, heat sink t2, co-proc t2 5 medium ecm drones, 5 light drones BTW: Ac without ab or mwd is not very helpful. base stats: Mega Pulse 3 / 7.88 x 48 = 18.27 tracking at optimal 421.87m/s useable range including web: 2000 - 25000m 800mm ac 1.925 / 5.63 x 44 = 15.04 tracking at optimal 135m/s usable range including web: 1500m - 6000m falloff != optimal, falloff = damage reduction
Batomar
Posted - 2006.06.03 02:06:00 -
[290 ]
Hi I am an electric enginiering major and recently had thermodynamic class and wanted to throw my to pennies about laser damage and kinetic energy. Now it is known that kinetik energy is 1/2mV^2 All known substances have kinetic energy. When a moving object like a projectile hits something it's kinetic energy is reduced to 0 becasue it's speed is 0. The conseravtion of energy says this energy is transfered in the body it hits. The goal is having the largest amount of energy being trasfered in smallest of surface. In order to have kinetic damage 2 things are important: the mass and the speed of the projectile(photons included) Now the mass is squared so has much greater say in the energy you will get out of it. The photon's mass is highly debated but we know it has energy so it must have mass. (E = mc^2) m=0 means E = 0. However the mass of the photon is soo small (hasn't been measured yet) that the resulting kinetic energy will be very very small. So lasers or light sources do have kinnetic energy becasue they are moving but it cas safely be neglected. P.S. All ships in eve are in costant violation of the second low of thermodynaics all being perpetium mobiles
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 03:03:00 -
[291 ]
Originally by: Bottled Brain Originally by: Sniser *snip -5% turret cpu implant, engineering lvl5, electronics lvl5, weapon upgrades lvl5, advanced weapon upgrades lvl4 7 mega pulse t2, medium diminishing nos x5 proto web, faint warp disruptor, hypnos multispec, heavy cap booster 2 large rep t2, 2 hardener t2, 1 t1 hardener, heat sink t2, co-proc t2 5 medium ecm drones, 5 light drones BTW: Ac without ab or mwd is not very helpful. base stats: Mega Pulse 3 / 7.88 x 48 = 18.27 tracking at optimal 421.87m/s useable range including web: 2000 - 25000m 800mm ac 1.925 / 5.63 x 44 = 15.04 tracking at optimal 135m/s usable range including web: 1500m - 6000m falloff != optimal, falloff = damage reduction you are telling me a race need use a implant to be effective with their ships? also is expensive the implant and you can lose it mega pulse have 0.034 tracking auto cannon 800mm have 0.054 tracking second medium nosfe? how do you want use it without ab or mdw? well if its a gallente with blasters yes... but the others? and if you use in tracking calc from website autocannon gets 80% accurancy at 15km( i said that in another post) and 90% at 7.5km while im doing 300dps i really think i dont care about lose 10% dps from the other optimal. i would care if i was a megathron doing 800dps or a tempest doing 600-700dps but an apoc doing 300dps with max skills? now i ask you, what you prefer tank like a hell or do 10% more dps? web is for self defense also you needed use a cpu t2 you now are wasting an slot and you lost tank. can you show me the other ship fits needed do this please? cpu t2+cpu implant 5%
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 04:07:00 -
[292 ]
Originally by: Sniser you should add, -10% cap laser reduction should mean something more than "we can fit those guns" those guns should do more damage than others because the others ships doesnt waste a bonus in all their ships No, they waste it on other things. Tachyon has 54.6% better tracking than 1400s and 44.6% better than 425s. With a 10% increase on current damage (assuming that is about what Tux will give them) tachs (on apoc) will do ~48% more damage base than 1400s on a tempest and ~38% more base damage than 425s on a megathron. With lvl 5 BS, tachs still have 54.6% better tracking than 1400s and 25% better tracking than 425s on a megathron. Tachs (on apoc) will have 2.4% more damage than 1400 on a tempest and 10% more damage than a 425 on a megathron. Megathron can fit 7 425 T2s with 283.25/2837.5 left (all rel. skills at 5) Tempest can fit 6 1400mm T2s with 476/70pg to spare Apoc can fit 7 tach T2s with 1 RCUII, leaving it with 315.75/2043.75 to spare If my calculations are correct, this means an Apoc with 7 tachs will do 10% more damage and has 25% better tracaking than a mega with 425s at the expense of 1 RCUII. It also means it does 19.5% more damage and has 54.6% better tracking than a tempest with 6 1400s at the same cost. Now, I can tell someone is still going to cry, "but tachs use a lot more cap!" Yes, little johnny, they do, however, apocs also have 41.2% and 33.3% more cap and better recharge than tempest and megathron respectively. Even so, what WOULD you change the bonuses on the apoc to? If you get rid of the laser cap use reduction, you'll suck that thing so fast you wont know what hit you. If you drop the the capacitor capacity increase for a ROF or damage bonus, you've basically turned the apoc into a more uber armageddon, which, I think everyone can agree on, would be overpowered. Moral of the Story: STFU about Apoc. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 04:21:00 -
[293 ]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 04:23:12 Also, why do people keep comparing AC's to mega pulse. They aren't even close to the same thing. Has noone pointed out that mega pulse has 4x the optimal of an 800mm and ? That a mega pulse 2 with radio and lvl5 skills reaches to 48km while 800mm 2s with carbonized lead reach only 9.6km and dual 650 IIs reach only ? Does that not factor in at all? "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.03 05:19:00 -
[294 ]
i dont know what you are smoking letifus. i use AC on one of my apocs and 2 dmg mods and a decent tank and yes it tanks better because the guns dont suck my cap dry at the same time, and yes i do more dmg and especially considered that i can do all dmg types with it. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.03 05:20:00 -
[295 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Not all Amarr ships are bad. But we have a preponderance of ships that just.....lack in comparison to other racial ships. Some are ship issues, some are weapon issues, some are underpowered bonus issues, some are a result of ammo imbalance, etc. Let's take a look at some of them.Passive Tanking Boost: Yes we needed a boost to tanking. But now, almost every ship in the game besides Caldari and some tempests passive armor tank. Where before 60% EM resist was manageable, it is common for armor tanks to have 75%+ resists to armor while not specifically kitting out to defend against Amarr.Ammo Distribution Imbalance: This goes hand in hand with the above issue. Range should be an advantage to lasers, especially in mid-long range. While other races have Carbonized Lead 12Exp/12Kin and Iron 12Kin/8Therm Amarr have Radio 20EM. Crystals should have an equitable EM/Therm split like all the other races, ESPECIALLY considering the boosts to passive tanking.Some gun fitting needs are too high: Medium Beam Lasers, Heavy Pulses - some of the Amarr weapons are WAY harder to fit than the racial Contemporaries.Some Amarr ships have the same grid/cpu layout as other racial ships that have weapons that are MUCH easier to mount: Whey does a crusader and claw both have 40pg base when the Crusader weapons are so much harder to fit?? Why does the Thrasher and Coercer have the same? Why are the Maller/Ruppie/Thorax so close in grid when lasers require so much grid more to fit? Why can a Mega fit a full rack of Neuts without a grid mod yet then Apoc can not fit a full rack of Tachys?Some Amarr non-damage bonuses need a boost: With stacking 5% per level of Armor resists isn't really enough to make a difference. It needs to be increased to at least 7.5% or make it not applicable to the stacking rules. Right now a brutix can tank just as well as a Prophecy yet has MUCH more damage potential and more mids and dronebay. Maller has the same problem. The "better" tanking just isn't appreciable in any noticeable way. The Apoc needs to lose a mostly useless cap bonus for an Armor Resist bonus as well. The Non-damage bonuses often need a larger percentage to be considered usefull. The recent brutix boost is a prime example of this.Lack of Mids, less useful lows: Mids largely determine PvP usefullness to some extent. Amarr have 2 ships with 1 mid, and many with only 2. In return we have (sometimes) an extra low that is much less useful overall. A Taranis with more mids and a dronebay is more useful than a Crusader becuase it does 90% of what a Sader can do, has a dronebay and an extra mid as well. Same with the Enyo and Retri.Useless ships, Khanid without a clue: WTH is an Omen supposed to be good at? If it's going to be a gunboat, let it do a crapload of damage and fit big guns. Right now like the Augorer its mostly useless. Khanid designs are 50/50 and therefore MASSIVELY inferior in the dps department. Let them spew missiles and armor tank. It's an interesting niche and provides DESPERATELY needed variety to Amarr ships. Right now Khanid ships are 90% inferior to other ships of thier class. Remember variety = interest = subscription retention. Nyxus Very QFT Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 06:27:00 -
[296 ]
Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 04:51:25 Also, why do people keep comparing AC's to mega pulse. They aren't even close to the same thing. Has no one pointed out that mega pulse has 5x the optimal of an 800mm and 5.56x that of a dual 650? That a mega pulse 2 with radio and lvl5 skills reaches to 48km while 800mm 2s with carbonized lead reach only 9.6km and dual 650 IIs reach only 8.64km? Does that not factor in at all? Besides that point, why are you comparing dual 650s to mega pulse? You SHOULD be comparing dual 650s to DHPs. OMFG!!!11 DHP use only 3 more cpu (after skills) and the same PG as dual 650s, have nearly 5x more optimal range, and DHP with MF has a 10% higher DOT on structure, 42% more on shield and 14% less on armor. All this averaging to 23.4% more damage accross all three and averaging to 14% more damage accross shield and armor alone than dual 650s with EMP! Well slap my ass and call me silly, who would have thought, lasers DO do more damage on an apoc! Now, will you PLEASE, PLEASE stfu about ACs on apocs. Kthx! first i will give you this thread to explain this better http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=346813 but i used 650 dual because ppl dont like 800mm clip size ;) second we are speaking about short range, but im going to tell you what happens if since we used a rcu t2 to use the taychons you add a dmg mod instead to your megathron or tempest. and do the math again plz :) also dont forgot the more range from railguns third optimal doesnt count if you use emp ammo vs mf ammo, with the cut on optimal they stay so close. optimal will be cut at 15km max with best skills and AC will do around 80% accurancy vs 90 accurancy laser at 15km , you can check it using the tracking calculator in this forum. and fourth dont even say anything about 40km range in megapulses since all short combat is 0<20km target will just warp if im at 30-40km away and fifth projectiles can choose their damage type, lasers cant These are graphs of damage (on structure) at 0, 100 and 200m/s transversal respectively. MP is in blue, DHP in green and dual 650s are in red (all using -50% ammo.) As you can see, the damage advantage of both MP and DHP over dual 650s at both 10 and 15kms is apparent. THUS, DHP > dual 650 on apoc... "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 06:32:00 -
[297 ]
Originally by: Malken i dont know what you are smoking letifus. i use AC on one of my apocs and 2 dmg mods and a decent tank and yes it tanks better because the guns dont suck my cap dry at the same time, and yes i do more dmg and especially considered that i can do all dmg types with it. 7 DHP with lvl 5 on all relevent skills uses 12.4% less cap/s. than a med. armor rep 2. If that slight cap usage isn't worth the advantages to you, then you, sir, are the one that needs to check what you're smoking. Also, it's Letifer, not Letifus. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.03 06:41:00 -
[298 ]
i got 800s and not 650s on my poc Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 06:42:00 -
[299 ]
Originally by: Malken i got 800s and not 650s on my poc Not sure what that has to do with cap usage, but I am redoing the graphs to add in 800s. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.03 07:10:00 -
[300 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Originally by: Malken i got 800s and not 650s on my poc Not sure what that has to do with cap usage, but I am redoing the graphs to add in 800s. It will greatly help if you can add in AC with 2 damage mods and MP with 1 damage mod graph as well, because, that's actually where the advantages jump in. The problem is Apoc damage is way too low compare to other BS, so we have to maintain a really long term tanking in order to deal enough damage to the opponent. So, putting AC on APOC already giving us great saving on cap to compensate with tanking, allowing more usable low slot for damage mod. Therefore, we'll be able to put more damage mod if fitted with AC than fitted with MP. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.03 07:29:00 -
[301 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Originally by: Malken i got 800s and not 650s on my poc Not sure what that has to do with cap usage, but I am redoing the graphs to add in 800s. projectiles suck 0 cap, megapulse suck lots = if projectile+tank=morecaptorepairers then =win plus the fact of being able to do all dmg types wich means that i can switch to the most suitable dmg and the enemy can just hardball his resist to EM+Thermal and wtfpwn me and giggle at me using beams. ill laugh at them for not fitting any kinetic and explosive hardener then :) Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 07:34:00 -
[302 ]
Originally by: Malken Originally by: Letifer Deus Originally by: Malken i got 800s and not 650s on my poc Not sure what that has to do with cap usage, but I am redoing the graphs to add in 800s. projectiles suck 0 cap, megapulse suck lots = if projectile+tank=morecaptorepairers then =win plus the fact of being able to do all dmg types wich means that i can switch to the most suitable dmg and the enemy can just hardball his resist to EM+Thermal and wtfpwn me and giggle at me using beams. ill laugh at them for not fitting any kinetic and explosive hardener then :) A) Did I not just say that 7 mega pulse use less cap than a medium rep 2? That isn't "suck lots." That is, "if you cant handle this extra cap usage, you suck" B) Are you psychic? Do you know whether someone has a kinetic or explosive hardener on? C) As people have pointed out, most use EANIIs now instead of specific hardeners, so your switching damage types advantage is shot down. D) IF someone is armor tanking and NOT using EANIIs, they are FAR more likely to have a kinetic or explosive hardener on than an EM hardener. So your damage switching adv. is not only shot down, but stomped into the ground. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Lucian Alucard
Posted - 2006.06.03 07:37:00 -
[303 ]
i must admit i used 8 t2 800mms with barrage L pre-nerf,had like a nice added 45% cap boni goin
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 07:40:00 -
[304 ]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 07:42:14 Originally by: MacQueen It will greatly help if you can add in AC with 2 damage mods and MP with 1 damage mod graph as well, because, that's actually where the advantages jump in. The problem is Apoc damage is way too low compare to other BS, so we have to maintain a really long term tanking in order to deal enough damage to the opponent. So, putting AC on APOC already giving us great saving on cap to compensate with tanking, allowing more usable low slot for damage mod. Therefore, we'll be able to put more damage mod if fitted with AC than fitted with MP. I would gladly, but first I must point out this: 1) DHP use the same PG as dual 650s, so there will be the same amount of low slots free there. 2) 7x MPIIs on an Apoc leaves 6665 pg to spare with lvl4 adv. weap. upgrades. This is enough to fit 2x LARIIs and a cap injector. If you want to fit a Heavy NOS in the 8th high slot, use DHPIIs, they deal more damage than 800s and use far less pg. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.03 08:04:00 -
[305 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 07:34:53 Originally by: Malken Originally by: Letifer Deus Originally by: Malken i got 800s and not 650s on my poc Not sure what that has to do with cap usage, but I am redoing the graphs to add in 800s. projectiles suck 0 cap, megapulse suck lots = if projectile+tank=morecaptorepairers then =win plus the fact of being able to do all dmg types wich means that i can switch to the most suitable dmg and the enemy can just hardball his resist to EM+Thermal and wtfpwn me and giggle at me using beams. ill laugh at them for not fitting any kinetic and explosive hardener then :) A) Did I not just say that 7 mega pulse use less cap than a medium rep 2? That isn't "suck lots." That is, "if you cant handle this extra cap usage, you suck lots." B) Are you psychic? Do you know whether someone has a kinetic or explosive hardener on? C) As people have pointed out, most use EANIIs now instead of specific hardeners, so your switching damage types advantage is shot down. D) IF someone is armor tanking and NOT using EANIIs, they are FAR more likely to have a kinetic or explosive hardener on than an EM hardener. So your damage switching adv. is not only shot down, but stomped into the ground. wow, if i see a Apoc i know that his primary is EM+Thermal its not that hard to figure out. if the enemy is Amarr heavy you tell your guys to fit better resist VS EM+Thermal so they cant do so much dmg against you. when those EM+Thermal hardened targets come up on a apoc with autocannons that can do other then EM+Thermal guess what happens? and your cap calculations dont add up either concerning the med rep2. a med rep2 uses 16.66cap/sec on my skills compared to the 28.4/sec that a megapulse2 does on my skills. one thing that you seem hellbent on is that you feel the need to prove that aurocannons isnt better. you are wrong, any extra cap that is freed is good cap that will keep you alive longer. all the time while dmg is still good on the autocannons. btw... i even managed to sneak in a 1600plate in my autopoc setup now, more good tanking 4tw. bear in mind that i am forced to use a couple of engineering modules to fit a megapulse apoc. with those 2 slots freed up with the Autopoc i can slip in a dmg mod and a 1600plate instead and do equal dmg and get 3300 more armor and the setup doesnt use as much capacitor as the megapulse setup and does equal to better dmg with the option of using any dmg type. and i dont have to hump around with 30mill in ammo either. anyway you want to spin it go ahead and try and twist it. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 08:07:00 -
[306 ]
Originally by: Sniser second we are speaking about short range, but im going to tell you what happens if since we used a rcu t2 to use the taychons you add a dmg mod instead to your megathron or tempest. and do the math again plz :) Here: Apoc (6 tachs, 1 HS2) : 100% Temp (6 1400, 1GS2) : 94% Mega (7 425mm, 1 MS2) : 105% So, Temp does 6% less damage, mega does 5% more, and apoc still have the huge tracking advantage. Wow, Apoc is soo underpowered... <--- Insert dripping sarcasm here. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Malken
Posted - 2006.06.03 08:10:00 -
[307 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus The damage/range advantage is easily worth such a small cap usage. dmg is equal or better on autocannons, the falloff is great. as any AC user knows that they fight inside their falloff alot and amarr 90% outside falloff :) most fights do take place inside warpscrambling range though wich is below 20k dont start comparing with long range setups as this is a thread on Short range(read jumpin range on gates and warpscrambling range) overall performance of amarr ships. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 08:19:00 -
[308 ]
Originally by: Malken Originally by: Letifer Deus The damage/range advantage is easily worth such a small cap usage. dmg is equal or better on autocannons, the falloff is great. as any AC user knows that they fight inside their falloff alot and amarr 90% outside falloff :) most fights do take place inside warpscrambling range though wich is below 20k dont start comparing with long range setups as this is a thread on Short range(read jumpin range on gates and warpscrambling range) overall performance of amarr ships. OK, did I not just post 3 graphs that show that MP/DHP do more damage than dual 650s/800s? Are you actually looking at what I post? "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 08:28:00 -
[309 ]
Originally by: Malken wow, if i see a Apoc i know that his primary is EM+Thermal its not that hard to figure out and i dont have to hump around with 30mill in ammo either. anyway you want to spin it go ahead and try and twist it. So every time you see an apoc that is KOS, you run to station to fit the correct hardeners? mmk. And it isn't that hard to see that an apoc has ACs on it, it's called right click-> look at. Third, 30 mil in ammo? WTF are you talking about. 2.5 mil for 7 MF L where I am atm, and 1.4 mil for 7 radio L. Finally, stop talking about PG/cpu usage, I already have shown that DHPIIs do more damage on an apoc than 800s with negligable cpu difference and far less PG usage. Suck it up and realize you are wrong. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.03 08:38:00 -
[310 ]
unfortunetly Malken is no longer able to post so he cant reply to your post. and its isnt about pure dmg it is total survivability in the end. a autocannon apoc with a 1600plate survives longer and kills more then a megapulse apoc who has higher cap use and less armour and only does 2dmg types. the autocannon apoc can do all dmg types thus being able to swap to the dmg needed wereas the megapulse apoc cannot. as for ammo cost i dont think you have seen the costs for tech2 crystals. -------- Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Deva Blackfire
Posted - 2006.06.03 08:42:00 -
[311 ]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/06/2006 08:43:24 Letifer: check prices for Aurora L and Gleam L - this is fleet setup ammo not some multi and radio stuff. Also it in not only CPU+PG issue but rather CPU+PG+CAP. And when cap comes into equation autocannons win over all amarr guns - because of similiar/better fitting, comparable damage but leaving you with enough cap to help you with tank.
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.03 08:50:00 -
[312 ]
Yeah 8 x aurora L = almost 40 mill ffs
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 08:54:00 -
[313 ]
Originally by: Xendie unfortunetly Malken is no longer able to post so he cant reply to your post. and its isnt about pure dmg it is total survivability in the end. a autocannon apoc with a 1600plate survives longer and kills more then a megapulse apoc who has higher cap use and less armour and only does 2dmg types. the autocannon apoc can do all dmg types thus being able to swap to the dmg needed wereas the megapulse apoc cannot. as for ammo cost i dont think you have seen the costs for tech2 crystals. I understand that 7x 800 ACs will leave more pg for other things than 7x mega pulse, which is WHY I have been touting Dual Heavy Pulse IIs, which, according to the graphs I posted, do more damage than 800 ACs in the range we are talking about. DHPs use VERY little cap (as I said, less than a MARII) so that is an extremely small factor. DHPs also use considerbly less powergrid (7x DHPIIs use 1771 less pg than 7x 800 IIs). As far as switching damage types, that is at the expense of damage. Switching from EMP to Phased Plasma/Fusion will change your damage types, yes, but it also cuts your structure DOT by ~10%. These ammos have a slightly better optimal bonus, however, due to the low optimal of 800s, phased only gains you .75km and fusion 1.5km. Trust me, DHPII apoc is better than 800mm II Apoc. Now, I must get sleep, we can continue this tomororw, or if SISI is up, we can go put our arguing to the test. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 08:57:00 -
[314 ]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 08:57:11 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/06/2006 08:43:24 Letifer: check prices for Aurora L and Gleam L - this is fleet setup ammo not some multi and radio stuff. Also it in not only CPU+PG issue but rather CPU+PG+CAP. And when cap comes into equation autocannons win over all amarr guns - because of similiar/better fitting, comparable damage but leaving you with enough cap to help you with tank. Crystals do not deplete like projectile ammo, so over time (albeit, quite a while) crystals make up for their high price. Secondly, I have said this multiple times now, the cap usage of DHPs is less than a medium rep 2, which is quite small. Thirdly, I hav also pointed out that DHPs use significantly less PG than 800 ACs, so one should be able to get a BETTER fitting with DHPs than 800s, not worse. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Deva Blackfire
Posted - 2006.06.03 09:15:00 -
[315 ]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/06/2006 09:17:23 T2 crystals DO use up. They last abt 1000 shots (id prefer myself to have 100 shots at 1/10 price to be honest). As for ACs etc - ill need to launch quickfit and check it myself but dont have time for that atm. Just checked overal damage for megapulses/800mm+gyro atm. As for switching: unfortunately as laser user i have to switch crystals almost all the time thx to crap faloff where you can operate on one type of ammo in one engagement (difference is in T2 ammo i believe but im not good with t2 projectile ammo types)
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.03 09:40:00 -
[316 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Originally by: Xendie unfortunetly Malken is no longer able to post so he cant reply to your post. and its isnt about pure dmg it is total survivability in the end. a autocannon apoc with a 1600plate survives longer and kills more then a megapulse apoc who has higher cap use and less armour and only does 2dmg types. the autocannon apoc can do all dmg types thus being able to swap to the dmg needed wereas the megapulse apoc cannot. as for ammo cost i dont think you have seen the costs for tech2 crystals. I understand that 7x 800 ACs will leave more pg for other things than 7x mega pulse, which is WHY I have been touting Dual Heavy Pulse IIs, which, according to the graphs I posted, do more damage than 800 ACs in the range we are talking about. DHPs use VERY little cap (as I said, less than a MARII) so that is an extremely small factor. DHPs also use considerbly less powergrid (7x DHPIIs use 1771 less pg than 7x 800 IIs). As far as switching damage types, that is at the expense of damage. Switching from EMP to Phased Plasma/Fusion will change your damage types, yes, but it also cuts your structure DOT by ~10%. These ammos have a slightly better optimal bonus, however, due to the low optimal of 800s, phased only gains you .75km and fusion 1.5km. Trust me, DHPII apoc is better than 800mm II Apoc. Now, I must get sleep, we can continue this tomororw, or if SISI is up, we can go put our arguing to the test. Personally I dont use apoc for a long time, unless level 4 mission tanking for my friends. So, just some rough idea from those date and graph that we have before, the main thing I want to point out is on apocalyse, even using Mega Pulse with 17% more base DPS than Dual Heavy Pulse, Apoc still fall big time below any other ship, only about 66.7% of the second worst DPS ( according to Tux graph). Now, so, we will say Apoc suppose to have Cap bonus for tanking, but then the guns cost more cap than the rest and so the Cap bonus is like 1/2 for the guns and 1/2 for tanking in the most optimal case even so we can clearly to see that those cap bonus isn't that great to tank. Dual rep is a must on Apoc, oh, yes, but then 1 extra 1600mm Rolled plate will bring up Armor HP by 4200 HP, that's equal 2100 cap with about 1 mins lost of time for 1 LAR II to recover. We have 2187.5 roughfully cap bonus on the apoc including in built bonus for cap and ship bonus. We dont have any extra slot or so and 1 vs 1 BS combat hardly last 1 min. It's the matter of seconds, a BS can muster out more than 50k raw damage per min !!! So, where's the bonus, where's the tanking power ?? ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 12:49:00 -
[317 ]
Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 12:50:48 Letifer Deus on those graphics did you counted the skills? motion is at 5? and trajectory analisis and sharpshooter 5? i think it isnt, get motion 5 and repeat the graphics ^^ surprise surprise
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 12:58:00 -
[318 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 08:16:47 Originally by: Sniser im going to tell you what happens if since we used a rcu t2 to use the taychons you add a dmg mod instead to your megathron or tempest. and do the math again plz :) While replying to this, I remembered 6 tachs with HS2 does more damage than 7 without, so here: Apoc (6 tachs, 1 HS2) : 100% Temp (6 1400, 1GS2) : 94% Mega (7 425mm, 1 MS2) : 105% So, Temp does 6% less damage, mega does 5% more, and apoc still have the huge tracking advantage. Wow, Apoc is soo underpowered... <--- Insert dripping sarcasm here. Also, for breaking tanks, higher damage mod. is better, so 5.4 on tachs compared to 4.125 on mega with lvl5 bs will likely close the 5% gap even further. AND, if you want to fit 2x LARIIs and a heavy cap injector, neither the apoc or mega can do so with just one RCUII. And furthermore, apoc with 6x tach IIs has 58.25 more cpu to spare than a megathron with 7x 425mm rail IIs. AGAIN, the moral of the story is: Apocs are just fine, stfu. first i was speaking about short range but.. taych have 0.014 track, 425mm rails have 0.01 and 1400mm arti 0.009 now if you get the rails on megathron with his tracking bonus... ohhh my god now rails have more damage and more tracking, and artis have more alphastrike... stfu you ^^
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.03 13:10:00 -
[319 ]
Edited by: MacQueen on 03/06/2006 13:11:30 Originally by: Letifer Deus While replying to this, I remembered 6 tachs with HS2 does more damage than 7 without, so here: Apoc (6 tachs, 1 HS2) : 100% Temp (6 1400, 1GS2) : 94% Mega (7 425mm, 1 MS2) : 105% So, Temp does 6% less damage, mega does 5% more, and apoc still have the huge tracking advantage. Wow, Apoc is soo underpowered... <--- Insert dripping sarcasm here. Also, for breaking tanks, higher damage mod. is better, so 5.4 on tachs compared to 4.125 on mega with lvl5 bs will likely close the 5% gap even further. AND, if you want to fit 2x LARIIs and a heavy cap injector, neither the apoc or mega can do so with just one RCUII. And furthermore, apoc with 6x tach IIs has 58.25 more cpu to spare than a megathron with 7x 425mm rail IIs. AGAIN, the moral of the story is: Apocs are just fine, stfu. I dont know how you're actually com up with those number but since damage mods having exactly same effect and ammo damage/range ratio on tech I is the same, I came up with this: Tach: (5.4 mod x 6 guns)/12.50 rof = 2.592 raw DPS Rail: (3.3 mos x 1.25 ship bonus x 7 guns)/9.56 rof = 3.03203974 raw DPS So, rails will have 16.5% higher DPS, not to mention that rail actually having better range than tach. Tell me if you want to have further calculation. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 13:39:00 -
[320 ]
im going to bring some graphs too First graph is tracking i lose around 10% accurancy when i arrive at 14km but 10% of 300dps arent too much now i find a guy he is using 2 EANM t2 and 1 dmg control internal force field array I, and compensation skills at 4 here is the tracking graph i changed to fusion ammo and now we have here the damage graph ( sit please before look it )
Bottled Brain
Posted - 2006.06.03 14:14:00 -
[321 ]
Ok, mp do more damage than acs on the apoc except if you have high resists against emp and thermal.^^ BTW: Please compare the falloff reduction of acs with 60m/s transversal (with web) and 200m/s transversal (no web and at 15km) in the damage screen and not the accuracy screen. Then calculate the difference between damage at optimal with 60m/s transversal and the damage at 15km with 200m/s transversal it¦s more than 10%, it¦s like 20% to 30%. You can¦t use a gun at 60% of its fallfoff and say that¦s the range it is meant to be used...
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 14:19:00 -
[322 ]
Originally by: Bottled Brain Ok, mp do more damage than acs on the apoc except if you have high resists against emp and thermal.^^ BTW: Please compare the falloff reduction of acs with 60m/s transversal (with web) and 200m/s transversal (no web and at 15km) in the damage screen and not the accuracy screen. Then calculate the difference between damage at optimal with 60m/s transversal and the damage at 15km with 200m/s transversal it¦s more than 10%, it¦s like 20% to 30%. You can¦t use a gun at 60% of its fallfoff and say that¦s the range it is meant to be used... they do nearly the same, look the other post ^^ and im not going to do all work lol if you want show math do it yourself :P
Bottled Brain
Posted - 2006.06.03 14:30:00 -
[323 ]
Edited by: Bottled Brain on 03/06/2006 14:30:38 Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Bottled Brain Ok, mp do more damage than acs on the apoc except if you have high resists against emp and thermal.^^ BTW: Please compare the falloff reduction of acs with 60m/s transversal (with web) and 200m/s transversal (no web and at 15km) in the damage screen and not the accuracy screen. Then calculate the difference between damage at optimal with 60m/s transversal and the damage at 15km with 200m/s transversal it¦s more than 10%, it¦s like 20% to 30%. You can¦t use a gun at 60% of its fallfoff and say that¦s the range it is meant to be used... they do nearly the same, look the other post ^^ and im not going to do all work lol if you want show math do it yourself :P The first graphs are displayed in accuracy screen. That¦s sometimes a bit missleading. And I did, what I asked you to do, I just wanted you to see it. :)
Dano Sarum
Posted - 2006.06.03 15:08:00 -
[324 ]
As somone who religiously sticks to Amarr i gotta say yes, we've been stiffed lately. 1/2 Midslot ships Stupidly high fitting requirements on upper class guns (Btw anyone noticed that "Focused Med BEAMS fire 4 pulses, whilst Focused med PULSES fire 1 constant beam? For the love of god look into Amarr) EVERYONE with an EANMII or two can tank EM T2 Ammo that turns us into giant targets Able to be CRIPPLED by nos with the majority of Amarr ships (no cap using projectiles/missiles is lame =/) I propose a few minor changes, Lower the PG requirements on the high end weapons, Like "Medium Beams/Pulses", "Heavy Beam/Pulses" and Tachyon / Megapulses... Remove / decrease the lame negative penalties on T2 ammo. INCREASE overall EM and thermal damage throught the board, seriously if we're gonna be reduced to these pitifull weapons that everyone can tank, give us the increased damage to be able to break them. (sorry guys but "explosive" ammo for amarr seems pretty lame) Give those 1 medslot ships 2 at least, seriously retri is loosing so much sex appeal with 1 med. Thats just how I see a few things, yeah im nub so I've not experienced things how they "used" to be back in the solopwnmobile apoc days, but all I know is nowdays my DPS is pathetic in comparison to everything else I've seen.
Wheya
Posted - 2006.06.03 16:54:00 -
[325 ]
Hmmm, I prepared my post before I saw this one . That's pretty the same I am talking about: the effect of EAN . Nevertheless I think my post is a valid expansion to the one of Sniser so here it is: 3 t2 EAN with armor compenstation skills at level 4 give 48% more resistance to all damage types. Ignoring racial resistance bonus on t1 ships they have: 60% EM, 35% TH, 25% KI, 10% EX With 3 EAN they have: 79% EM, 66% TH, 61% KI, 43% EX Minmatar would get additional 10% EM resistance, Gallente TH, Caldari KI and Amarr get EX. Following numbers are base stats without skills, implants and ship bonus :Mega Pulse with Multifrequency (48): EM dmg: 3 / 7.88 * 28 = 10.65 TH dmg: 3 / 7.88 * 20 = 7.61 sum: 18.26 raw damage damage against avg hardened BS: EM dmg: 18.65 * 0.21 = 3.83 TH dmg: 7.61 * 0.34 = 2.58 sum: 6.41 damage 800mm AC with Fusion ammo (40): KI dmg: 1.925 / 5.63 * 8 = 2.73 ex dmg: 1.925 / 5.63 * 32 = 10.94 sum: 13.67 raw damage damage against avg hardened BS: KI dmg: 2.73 * 0.39 = 1.06 EX dmg: 10.94 * 0.57 = 6.23 sum: 7.29 damageION Blaster with Antimatter (48): KI dmg: 2.8125 / 6.75 * 28 = 11.66 TH dmg: 2.8125 / 6.75 * 20 = 8.33 sum: 19.99 raw damage damage against avg hardened BS: KI dmg: 11.66 * 0.39 = 4.54 TH dmg: 8.33 * 0.34 = 2.83 sum: 7.37 damageTachyon with Radio (20): EM dmg: 4.5 / 12.5 * 20 = 7.2 dmg against avg hardened BS: EM: 7.2 * 0.21 = 1.511400mm with Carbonized Lead (24): KI dmg: 5.75 / 23.63 * 12 = 2.92 EX dmg: 5.75 / 23.63 * 12 = 2.92 sum: 5.84 raw damage damage against avg hardened BS: KI dmg: 2.92 * 0.39 = 1.13 EX dmg: 2.92 * 0.57 = 1.66 sum: 2.79 damage425mm Rail with Iron (20): KI dmg: 2.75 / 9.56 * 12 = 3.45 TH dmg: 2.75 / 9.56 * 8 = 2.3 sum: 5.75 raw damage damage against avg hardened BS: KI dmg: 3.45 * 0.39 = 1.34 TH dmg: 2.30 * 0.34 = 0.78 sum: 2.12 damage weapon Mega P. 800mm ION | Tachyon 1400mm 425mm raw dmg 18.26 13.67 19.99 | 7.2 5.84 5.75 percent 91.34% 68.38% 100% | 100% 81.11% 79.86% res dmg 6.41 7.29 7.39 | 1.51 2.79 2.12 percent 86.73% 98.64% 100% |54.12% 100% 75.98%
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 18:58:00 -
[326 ]
Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Bottled Brain Ok, mp do more damage than acs on the apoc except if you have high resists against emp and thermal.^^ BTW: Please compare the falloff reduction of acs with 60m/s transversal (with web) and 200m/s transversal (no web and at 15km) in the damage screen and not the accuracy screen. Then calculate the difference between damage at optimal with 60m/s transversal and the damage at 15km with 200m/s transversal it¦s more than 10%, it¦s like 20% to 30%. You can¦t use a gun at 60% of its fallfoff and say that¦s the range it is meant to be used... they do nearly the same, look the other post ^^ and im not going to do all work lol if you want show math do it yourself :P Sniser = wrong, Bottled Brain = right. I already posted the graphs you are looking for, except i dont 60 and 200, I have 0/100/200 m/s. Sniser: Wow, you showed that ACs with fusion ammo do more damage on armor than lasers (duh), GJ, now do that same graph against Shields, and *GASP* you will find that fusion is almost 38% worse on shields than multifreq. is on armor. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 19:06:00 -
[327 ]
Originally by: Wheya 3 t2 EAN with armor compenstation skills at level 4 give 48% more resistance to all damage types. Ignoring racial resistance bonus on t1 ships they have: 60% EM, 35% TH, 25% KI, 10% EX With 3 EAN they have: 79% EM, 66% TH, 61% KI, 43% EX Minmatar would get additional 10% EM resistance, Gallente TH, Caldari KI and Amarr get EX. I believe your percentage is off on explosive with 3 EAN. With 3 fitted on my domi (and only lvl1 on compensation skills) I have 49% resistance to explosive on armor, which means it should be slightly higher than that with lvl 4 armor comp. skills. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 19:38:00 -
[328 ]
Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 19:40:45 Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 19:39:18 Originally by: Letifer Deus Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Bottled Brain Ok, mp do more damage than acs on the apoc except if you have high resists against emp and thermal.^^ BTW: Please compare the falloff reduction of acs with 60m/s transversal (with web) and 200m/s transversal (no web and at 15km) in the damage screen and not the accuracy screen. Then calculate the difference between damage at optimal with 60m/s transversal and the damage at 15km with 200m/s transversal it¦s more than 10%, it¦s like 20% to 30%. You can¦t use a gun at 60% of its fallfoff and say that¦s the range it is meant to be used... they do nearly the same, look the other post ^^ and im not going to do all work lol if you want show math do it yourself :P Sniser = wrong, Bottled Brain = right. I already posted the graphs you are looking for, except i dont 60 and 200, I have 0/100/200 m/s. Sniser: Wow, you showed that ACs with fusion ammo do more damage on armor than lasers (duh), GJ, now do that same graph against Shields, and *GASP* you will find that fusion is almost 38% worse on shields than multifreq. is on armor. i really think you dont read the posts, projectiles CAN change their dmg TYPE, lasers CANT. my apoc will use fusion and you will stay with laser . also if i see a shield user i will use EMP maybe i will do a bit less than you but even im going to waste 0 cap while im shooting
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 19:46:00 -
[329 ]
Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 19:49:34 Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 19:39:33 blablala... Again, MPIIs in blue, DHPIIs in green, dual 650IIs in red and 8000s in yellow. Now, at 10km on structure: MP: ~21.5dmg (base) DHP: ~18.5dmg (-14%) 800: ~16.5dmg (-23.3%) dual 650: ~15.6dmg (-27.5) Now, at 15km on structure: MP: ~21.7dmg (base) DHP: ~18.0dmg (-17%) 800: ~14.1dmg (-35%) dual 650: ~13.2dmg (-39%) Max Damage: MP: 21.7 @ 15.1km (base) DHP: 18.7 @ 13.2km (-14%) 800: 17.3 @ 5.8km (-20%) dual 650: 16.6 @ 5.5km (-23.5%) Sniser: Wow, you showed that ACs with fusion ammo do more damage on armor than lasers (duh), GJ, now do that same graph against Shields, and *GASP* you will find that fusion is almost 38% worse on shields than multifreq. is on armor. nice you now discovered AC have more tracking and lose less from moving? ^^ so who is going to move at 60m/s? my apoc can go to 138m/s and im not even nav 5 if you are telling me "oh wait but i use web" cool 10km now i hit more thanks ;) Edit: i cant play for now to Eve i have a project to give next week and i dont know if i will have enough time to do it, while im writing here im programing in Visual C++ .Net :P. I write while im waiting while i compile the code lol
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 19:46:00 -
[330 ]
Originally by: Sniser Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 19:39:18 Originally by: Letifer Deus Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Bottled Brain Ok, mp do more damage than acs on the apoc except if you have high resists against emp and thermal.^^ BTW: Please compare the falloff reduction of acs with 60m/s transversal (with web) and 200m/s transversal (no web and at 15km) in the damage screen and not the accuracy screen. Then calculate the difference between damage at optimal with 60m/s transversal and the damage at 15km with 200m/s transversal it¦s more than 10%, it¦s like 20% to 30%. You can¦t use a gun at 60% of its fallfoff and say that¦s the range it is meant to be used... they do nearly the same, look the other post ^^ and im not going to do all work lol if you want show math do it yourself :P Sniser = wrong, Bottled Brain = right. I already posted the graphs you are looking for, except i dont 60 and 200, I have 0/100/200 m/s. Sniser: Wow, you showed that ACs with fusion ammo do more damage on armor than lasers (duh), GJ, now do that same graph against Shields, and *GASP* you will find that fusion is almost 38% worse on shields than multifreq. is on armor. i really think you dont read the posts, projectiles CAN change their dmg TYPE, lasers CANT. my apoc will use fusion and you will stay with laser . also if i see a shield i will use EMP maybe i will do a bit less than you but even im going to waste 0 cap while im shooting I already replied to damage change, if you read my posts, you would know that. Now, how about we just go on SISI (whenever the heck it comes back online) and settle it there? "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Meridius
Posted - 2006.06.03 20:13:00 -
[331 ]
I'm sorry, Amarr are suppose to be the turret kings? Yeah right. Zealot was made with stacked damage mods in mind, it needs another turret now that stacking has been wtfnerfed. - _____
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 20:20:00 -
[332 ]
Sniser, can you please tell me how you got to the dmg modifers and ROFs that you have for 800s/dual 650s/mps/dhps on your graph? It appears that the dmg modifers and ROFs of the 800s/d650s has been increased more above base than the mp/dhp. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 20:28:00 -
[333 ]
Originally by: Meridius I'm sorry, Amarr are suppose to be the turret kings? Yeah right. Zealot was made with stacked damage mods in mind, it needs another turret now that stacking has been wtfnerfed. I agree whole-heartedly that certain amarr ships are not up to par. Zealot (as you have shown), crusader, ect... However, I feel people whining like babies about Apocs is silly. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 20:43:00 -
[334 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 20:36:30 Sniser, can you please tell me how you got to the dmg modifers and ROFs that you have for 800s/dual 650s/mps/dhps on your graph? It appears that the dmg modifers and ROFs of the 800s/d650s has been increased more (73.94%) above base than the mp/dhp (58.13%). Here is your same graph of 800s, dual 650s and DHPs, except with BASE damage mod./rof and optimal, tracking, falloff skills at level 5: 1 dmg mod for ac, 0 for pulses(its explained why over and over and over again). and max skills(dmg track,range etc) in everything in quickfit
Meridius
Posted - 2006.06.03 20:44:00 -
[335 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus I agree whole-heartedly that certain amarr ships are not up to par. Zealot (as you have shown), crusader, ect... However, I feel people whining like babies about Apocs is silly. Agreed, that projectile apoc thread is an abomination. The apoc actually is a hardcore turret boat...well perhaps not so much in damage deptartment but hey it's got the most guns as all Amarr ships should. You don't see non-caldari ships with more launchers then Caldari ships do you? Nope, never. - _____
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 21:25:00 -
[336 ]
Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 20:36:30 Sniser, can you please tell me how you got to the dmg modifers and ROFs that you have for 800s/dual 650s/mps/dhps on your graph? It appears that the dmg modifers and ROFs of the 800s/d650s has been increased more (73.94%) above base than the mp/dhp (58.13%). Here is your same graph of 800s, dual 650s and DHPs, except with BASE damage mod./rof and optimal, tracking, falloff skills at level 5: 1 dmg mod for ac, 0 for pulses(its explained why over and over and over again). and max skills(dmg track,range etc) in everything in quickfit Explain to me, then, why your DHPs have no damage mod on? "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 21:55:00 -
[337 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 21:37:55 Explain to me, then, why your DHPs have no damage mod on? 8t2 ac + 1 dmg mod Damage per second on Structure : 390.162 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 78cap/s 8t2 DHP + 1 dmg mod Damage per second on Structure : 409.453 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 97cap/s max skills 101 with bs 4 around 19-23cap/s for 19dps? i dont find it a nice trade also dhp have less range, also you cant change your ammo type
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 22:22:00 -
[338 ]
Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 21:37:55 Explain to me, then, why your DHPs have no damage mod on? 8t2 ac + 1 dmg mod Damage per second on Structure : 390.162 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 78cap/s 8t2 DHP + 1 dmg mod Damage per second on Structure : 409.453 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) 97cap/s max skills 101 with bs 4 around 19-23cap/s for 19dps? i dont find it a nice trade also dhp have less range, also you cant change your ammo type That is with 800s, now, try and fit your 2x large 'accommodation's and a heavy electrochem with 8x 800s. With lvl 4 adv. weap. upgrades, you can't. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 22:30:00 -
[339 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus That is with 800s, now, try and fit your 2x large 'accommodation's and a heavy electrochem with 8x 800s. With lvl 4 adv. weap. upgrades, you can't. ahh my friend.. what can i say? please before speak... try it... Apocalypse 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I [4xCap Booster 800] Eutectic I Capacitor Charge Array X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Explosive Hardener I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II Large Armor Repairer II Large Armor Repairer II <--- no i cant fit large 'accommodation's, i can fit t2 Large Powergrid : 22551.0 / 24375.0 MW CPU : 615.0 / 625.0 tf 4969 shield, 6.21/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/20/40/60 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=69/75/71/69 7200.0 cap, +31.05/s, -78.311/s 138.0 m/s
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 22:36:00 -
[340 ]
Originally by: Sniser I stand corrected, but I swear it didn't fit the first time I tried it o_0. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.06.03 22:37:00 -
[341 ]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 03/06/2006 22:39:47 Fit a damn mwd if it's a solo setup... and certainly, if it's a gang setup, it also needs work (plates and all) . NB.
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.03 22:48:00 -
[342 ]
Originally by: Naughty Boy Edited by: Naughty Boy on 03/06/2006 22:39:47 Fit a damn mwd if it's a solo setup... and certainly, if it's a gang setup, it also needs work (plates and all) . NB. I was trying to be as close to his setup as possible, but using pulses. As far as gang setup, I agree, he would def. need a different setup. "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.06.03 22:53:00 -
[343 ]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 03/06/2006 22:55:24 Originally by: Letifer Deus I was trying to be as close to his setup as possible, but using pulses. Pretty much his whole theory is based upon the assumption that autocannons and pulses have similar range, but it's not like that. Hence why the point about the mwd. Fine to me if nobody uses a mwd on setups compared, but the actual uses of these setups seem very poor to me. Also, it's not very surprizing that hardpoints give more versatility in setups than bonuses, hence why we have threads with unusual setups involving the apocs more than the geddon... I'd take that as a strengh of the ship, not a weakness of the weapons. Anyway, I don't really see a balancing issue here, about the projectile based apoc setup, except for tanking being in general underpowered... a ship specializing in tanking is hence going to appear less powerfull than a ship specializing in dealing damage or EW for instance. NB.
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 23:02:00 -
[344 ]
Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 23:03:38 Originally by: Naughty Boy Edited by: Naughty Boy on 03/06/2006 22:55:24 Originally by: Letifer Deus I was trying to be as close to his setup as possible, but using pulses. Pretty much his whole theory is based upon the assumption that autocannons and pulses have similar range, but it's not like that. Hence why the point about the mwd. Fine to me if nobody uses a mwd on setups compared, but the actual uses of these setups seem very poor to me. Also, it's not very surprizing that hardpoints give more versatility in setups than bonuses, hence why we have threads with unusual setups involving the apocs more than the geddon... I'd take that as a strengh of the ship, not a weakness of the weapons. Anyway, I don't really see a balancing issue here, about the projectile based apoc setup, except for tanking being in general underpowered... a ship specializing in tanking is hence going to appear less powerfull than a ship specializing in dealing damage or EW for instance. NB. oh yes its for solo, i will never use a apoc for small gang, only fleets with taych, small gangs are for geddon. I have some more crazy setups for it too i didnt put mdw because its killing the cap, i did another fit with ab in the other thread Naughty boy the problem is usually we cant fit the better weapons mega for large, heavy for meds, med for small weapons without breaking our tank or having 0 tank geddon have 0 tank(don try it, just plates eanm and dmg control) crusader need use duals instead meds, omen, maller need use focused instead heavys and as you can see apoc cant fit megas well if the ship try do his job.. tank also if you want fit taychs you need 8 2xrcu t2, i think 1 rcu t2 would be balanced but 2.. thats a lot just for fit it. If i dont remember bad they have only 10% more damage but have less range. you can add dmg mods tracking plates instead the 2 rcu
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.03 23:16:00 -
[345 ]
Edited by: Frools on 03/06/2006 23:20:01 Originally by: Sniser geddon have 0 tank(don try it, just plates eanm and dmg control) wrong, try dual heavy pulse + dual large rep + cap booster works like a blasterthron only without the need for a mwd (which is good cos it cant fit one ) Originally by: Sniser crusader need use duals instead meds, omen, maller need use focused instead heavys yep and those ships either need a bunch more grid or all those weapons need grid reduction tbh this problem isnt anywhere near as big at the bs level the geddon is a perfect example of this, you can fit biggest short range guns (mega pulse) without fitting mods as long as you have basically no tank or you fit the smallest guns and fit a tank too the problem is that at the frig and cruiser level you have to fit rcu's just to get the biggest guns in and if you fit the lowest guns you still have no grid to tank in Originally by: Sniser and as you can see apoc cant fit megas well if the ship try do his job.. tank so? if its supposed to do just that, tank, then why does it need the biggest guns? although imo the cap bonus needs changing, to run a good tank you still need a cap booster so the extra cap is of limited use resist bonus, rep amount bonus or something like that would make it a much better tanking ship imo although it wouldnt be quite as good a sustainable pve tank Originally by: Sniser also if you want fit taychs you need 8 2xrcu t2, i think 1 rcu t2 would be balanced but 2.. thats a lot just for fit it. If i dont remember bad they have only 10% more damage but have less range. you can add dmg mods tracking plates instead the 2 rcu yes that sucks yea tachyons do massive damage but the disadvantages are too big, they still get outranged, the cap use is insane and the fittings even more so
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.06.03 23:17:00 -
[346 ]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 03/06/2006 23:19:23 Originally by: Sniser oh yes its for solo The problem is that most of your setups are lacking for solo, on top of that amarr battleships in general fare much better in small gangs than solo. You can tell that from the characteristics of pulses (good range, good tracking at range, good damage). Originally by: Sniser i didnt put mdw because its killing the cap, i did another fit with ab in the other thread Well, it's killing the cap, but that's better than seeing anything you could kill move out of your range, and anything that could kill you get into its own optimal. That's going to kill your ship (and the cap, too :p). Originally by: Sniser Naughty boy the problem is usually we cant fit the better weapons mega, heavy for meds, med for small weapons without breaking our tank or having 0 tank I'd kill to semi-passive armor tank a close range tempest as good as you can semi-passive armor tank amarr BS. That makes them good gang ships, which auto-tempest or blasterthron can't be nearly as well. NB.
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.03 23:29:00 -
[347 ]
Originally by: Frools Edited by: Frools on 03/06/2006 23:20:01 Originally by: Sniser geddon have 0 tank(don try it, just plates eanm and dmg control) wrong, try dual heavy pulse + dual large rep + cap booster works like a blasterthron only without the need for a mwd (which is good cos it cant fit one ) yes lets to tell gallente, hey guys you dont use ion, use electron if you want tank. neutron for short range weapons are like taychons for sniping. So ion blaster = mega pulses Originally by: Frools Originally by: Sniser and as you can see apoc cant fit megas well if the ship try do his job.. tank so? if its supposed to do just that, tank, then why does it need the biggest guns? although imo the cap bonus needs changing, to run a good tank you still need a cap booster so the extra cap is of limited use resist bonus, rep amount bonus or something like that would make it a much better tanking ship imo although it wouldnt be quite as good a sustainable pve tank because instead fit DHP i can fit 800mm AC doing best job, same damage, less cap
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.04 04:42:00 -
[348 ]
Originally by: Wheya Edited by: Wheya on 03/06/2006 20:35:17 Hmmm, I prepared my post before I saw this one . That's pretty the same I am talking about: the effect of EAN . Nevertheless I think my post is a valid expansion to the one of Sniser so here it is: 3 t2 EAN with armor compenstation skills at level 4 give 48% more resistance to all damage types. Ignoring racial resistance bonus on t1 ships they have: 60% EM, 35% TH, 25% KI, 10% EX With 3 EAN they have: 79% EM, 66% TH, 61% KI, 53% EX Minmatar would get additional 10% EM resistance, Gallente TH, Caldari KI and Amarr get EX. Following numbers are base stats without skills, implants and ship bonus :Mega Pulse with Multifrequency (48): EM dmg: 3 / 7.88 * 28 = 10.65 TH dmg: 3 / 7.88 * 20 = 7.61 sum: 18.26 raw damage damage against avg hardened BS: EM dmg: 18.65 * 0.21 = 3.83 TH dmg: 7.61 * 0.34 = 2.58 sum: 6.41 damage 800mm AC with Fusion ammo (40): KI dmg: 1.925 / 5.63 * 8 = 2.73 ex dmg: 1.925 / 5.63 * 32 = 10.94 sum: 13.67 raw damage damage against avg hardened BS: KI dmg: 2.73 * 0.39 = 1.06 EX dmg: 10.94 * 0.47 = 5.14 sum: 6.2 damageION Blaster with Antimatter (48): KI dmg: 2.8125 / 6.75 * 28 = 11.66 TH dmg: 2.8125 / 6.75 * 20 = 8.33 sum: 19.99 raw damage damage against avg hardened BS: KI dmg: 11.66 * 0.39 = 4.54 TH dmg: 8.33 * 0.34 = 2.83 sum: 7.37 damageTachyon with Radio (20): EM dmg: 4.5 / 12.5 * 20 = 7.2 dmg against avg hardened BS: EM: 7.2 * 0.21 = 1.511400mm with Carbonized Lead (24): KI dmg: 5.75 / 23.63 * 12 = 2.92 EX dmg: 5.75 / 23.63 * 12 = 2.92 sum: 5.84 raw damage damage against avg hardened BS: KI dmg: 2.92 * 0.39 = 1.13 EX dmg: 2.92 * 0.47 = 1.37 sum: 2.5 damage425mm Rail with Iron (20): KI dmg: 2.75 / 9.56 * 12 = 3.45 TH dmg: 2.75 / 9.56 * 8 = 2.3 sum: 5.75 raw damage damage against avg hardened BS: KI dmg: 3.45 * 0.39 = 1.34 TH dmg: 2.30 * 0.34 = 0.78 sum: 2.12 damage weapon Mega P. 800mm ION | Tachyon 1400mm 425mm raw dmg 18.26 13.67 19.99 | 7.2 5.84 5.75 percent 91.34% 68.38% 100% | 100% 81.11% 79.86% res dmg 6.41 6.2 7.39 | 1.51 2.5 2.12 percent 86.73% 83.89% 100% | 60.4% 100% 84.8% edit: explosive resistance corrected,. Thanks Letifur Deus. Wheya do these numbers take into account any ship bonuses to damage and rof? Do they take into account that NOS no longer stops some ships from firing, while Amarr ships would be unable to keep firing? What about drone damage? What about the very nice Minnie EM resists (some unhardened t2 ships have a 92% base EM resist)? Have you compared the results of Amarr vs Minnie, to Caldari vs Gallente, Minnie vs Gallente, Minnie vs Caldari, ect.... What about a comparison of damage to belt NPC and Mission NPCs (PVE is a part of the game)? Does that Tachyon figure seem right considering the fitting requirements and cap drain? Also I would like to know how much the cap use of lasers affects Amarr tanks, can Amarr ships still hold out against the damage done to them while still being able to actually break an enemy tank before their cap and tank fails? I bet these things are hard to get a clear answer about, so what a lot of Amarr pilots base their request for a boost on is their experiences flying, It seems that a lot of small things have come together that now make them a little too weak. Also I don't think the Apoc having a good reason to switch weapon types is an advantage.... it just means Amarr have to train far more gunnery skills to use the different guns in order to do a different damage type, where as the other Battleship pilots can put their sp else where.
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.06.04 07:06:00 -
[349 ]
Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Letifer Deus That is with 800s, now, try and fit your 2x large 'accommodation's and a heavy electrochem with 8x 800s. With lvl 4 adv. weap. upgrades, you can't. ahh my friend.. what can i say? please before speak... try it... [funky Artylypse fit here with only one gyrostabilizer II] Based on my (lack of) experience artilleries with only one dmgmod in an Amarr bs are -forgive the pun- pure bs since you don't get any kind of bonuses for them. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
DanMck
Posted - 2006.06.04 08:30:00 -
[350 ]
Edited by: DanMck on 04/06/2006 08:32:53 also what about a change all frequency crystals option ? no faster than current manual method but saves you getting arm ache changing them when something moves out of optimal
Wheya
Posted - 2006.06.04 09:44:00 -
[351 ]
Aemilus Brutus, as I have said this are base stats without skills, ship bonus or implants included to show how they would work on Apocalypse. Gunnery skills are the same for all races. Including them wouldn't change the relations of my table. Same about implants. Differeent ship boni would change a few things. Assuming battleship skill at levl 5: Hybrids on Mega get a 1.25 multiplier Lasers on Arma get a 1.33 multiplier Projectiles on Tempest get a 1.66 multiplier My thread was not meant to show the Apocalypse is a poor damage dealer compared to other ships. This is ok because as it has other qualities. The advantage of 8 turret slots would equalize the lower number of dmg for single turrets a bit, too. When it comes to energy usage then Hybrids and Lasers are more or less on an equal level. Blaster and AC turret users would have to fit a mwd which pretty screws their cap. Obviously the majority seems to agree that an afterburner is not enough.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.04 09:59:00 -
[352 ]
Originally by: DanMck Edited by: DanMck on 04/06/2006 08:32:53 also what about a change all frequency crystals option ? no faster than current manual method but saves you getting arm ache changing them when something moves out of optimal Somewhat OT, but oh, yes. In general an option to switch between different "sets" would be very nice, not only for lasers. You could predefine a longrange, med, etc ammo setup (or EM, exp, etc for missles) and just switch between them with one click instead 7 * rightclick-leftclick.
Deva Blackfire
Posted - 2006.06.04 10:33:00 -
[353 ]
Aramendel: clicking right-right on crystal change is less risky. I already managed to aggro whole plex while i was changing ammo because i lagged and left clicked on gun.
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.04 15:41:00 -
[354 ]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Aramendel: clicking right-right on crystal change is less risky. I already managed to aggro whole plex while i was changing ammo because i lagged and left clicked on gun. I'm a bit lost arround with all the post but they sound a bit off topic. So I'm trying to pull it back to where I reckon it should be and well, one main point: What will be the Apocalyse, what's it role in the game atm. Amarr is losing its power after all the nerf and need to have some adjustment to keep it in line with other races. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.06.04 17:27:00 -
[355 ]
Originally by: Meridius The Truth about Hacs. Ishtar is wtfoverpowered and Cerb does more damage than a scorch Zealot, yet needs "high damage short range missiles". I'm sorry, Amarr are suppose to be the turret kings? Yeah right. Zealot was made with stacked damage mods in mind, it needs another turret now that stacking has been wtfnerfed. Omg Meri sometimes I just hate you. I went from being just sad about Amarr and the Zealot especially to being completely heartbroken and depressed. FFS I guess it's just tough love though <sobs>. The stacking damage mod is the true issue and Amarr killer, not just Zealot but most Amarr ships. Having more low slots is NOT an advantage when mid slots are more useful for pvp and low slot modules are not only less powerful/usefull but also suffer more from stacking penalties. In addition, many Amarr ships were balanced with stacked damage mods in mind - Zealot and Apoc in particular. Maybe CCP could introduce another heatsink equivalent mod slightly less powerful that would be on a different stacking penalty to Heatsinks. Maybe just increased damage mod or something. We need something. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.04 17:43:00 -
[356 ]
Originally by: Meridius The Truth about Hacs. Ishtar is wtfoverpowered and Cerb does more damage than a scorch Zealot, yet needs "high damage short range missiles". I'm interested in your full ishtar setup, and your vaga setup Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Kyguard
Posted - 2006.06.04 17:50:00 -
[357 ]
The reasoning to boost the deimos is because with heavy ions t2 it can't have a decent tank. Can the zealot? No, not really. Not to mention a thorax can kill a zealot, put on tracking disruptor on and orbit up close = dead Zealot. === God is on the side with the best arti
Porro
Posted - 2006.06.04 18:07:00 -
[358 ]
That graph with the ishtar's dps looks a bit odd. Ogre II's do about 470~dps with my max skills bar gallente drone spec. so that means that 3 heavy neutrons with void do 400 dps, and how do they keep hitting at 20k? And Drones sort of follow their target so shouldnt a line be drawn at 460dps across? Ishtars don't usually fit 3 guns either anyway, but I agree that multi(s? :() are pretty much mandatory on one now and, and pretty much guarantee in a hac v hac fight the other person is jammed. The deimos does do a lot of damage, but it has pretty much no tank or cap in about 30 seconds, and its agility/speed/mass is pretty crap for its role and it could really use that tad extra grid for a med nos on an ion setup. It is great for a damage dealer in a small gang though. Pretty scary cerb numbers, I don't really talk about those that much as the only ones I've had test fights with where cap injected large booster monster tanking things. Im sorry about the post and its bad formatting if its off topic I didn't really read the thread just saw that graph and wanted to post a reply :P ---------------------------------------------------- (22:01:14) (Sangxianc) you, porro, have madder skillzors than i, sang, do
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.04 20:01:00 -
[359 ]
Originally by: Wheya Aemilus Brutus, as I have said this are base stats without skills, ship bonus or implants included to show how they would work on Apocalypse. Gunnery skills are the same for all races. Including them wouldn't change the relations of my table. Same about implants. Differeent ship boni would change a few things. Assuming battleship skill at levl 5: Hybrids on Mega get a 1.25 multiplier Lasers on Arma get a 1.33 multiplier Projectiles on Tempest get a 1.66 multiplier My thread was not meant to show the Apocalypse is a poor damage dealer compared to other ships. This is ok because as it has other qualities. The advantage of 8 turret slots would equalize the lower number of dmg for single turrets a bit, too. When it comes to energy usage then Hybrids and Lasers are more or less on an equal level. Blaster and AC turret users would have to fit a mwd which pretty screws their cap. Obviously the majority seems to agree that an afterburner is not enough. I went back and read my post, I must get really cranky at night with my meds. Sorry about the way I approached the subject, it seems I unfairly attacked you. Your data is important, and I didn't intend to belittle it the way my post ended up doing. My general point is balance is very very complex, and while damage data helps understand the issue, there are many other factors involved. Let's say I assume lasers aren't that bad when damaged is compared, I get the feeling that Amarr tanks, esp the Maller and the Apoc aren't holding up to the better tanks of their opponents the way they used too. Before the recent boosts and EAN t2s the Apoc seemed balanced in that if you had a good setup for your enemy you had a fair chance at out tanking them until your lasers could kill them, it seemed fairly balanced. I'm all for longer fights, PVP and PVE, but the boost to tanks and other weapon systems makes out lasting the enemy much harder, the reasons could be too much EM compared to thermal in the damage type, too much cap use from lasers after the recent changes to tanks and weapons, cap's reduction in importance compared to resists in terms of tanking. Then throw in drones, rof, damage improvements, damage type selection, can all contribute to a balance problem (Not a massive problem, but still a problem). MWDs really hurt cap, but the pay off is being able to close with the enemy, advoid or minimize webs, and get under the guns before your enemy does too much damage on the approach or just get away when the odds aren't in your favor. Signature isn't as important with Battleships compared to frigates and cruisers, so that penalty doesn't hurt blasterthrons like it might a thorax. There are tons of factors that make up game balance, sometimes a few tables and charts do not tell the complete story. They are useful (sometimes very, but they need to be weighed with other evidence and opinions. My experiences are making me switch from Amarr, and I hate that, I really wanted to be able to fly them. But I can feel like I get more bang with my sp and less hassles with other factions. My time playing is limited and important to me, I just can't keep throwing more time at something that some other ship can do better, maybe my limited play time makes me feel the balance problems more, maybe not having maxed gunnery skills allows me to see problems in the t1 ammo and guns more clearyly (My skills aren't bad, many are at the 4-5 range with fitting skills at 5, except for advanced weapon upgrades). I don't think the problem with Amarr is huge, but just enough to make them need a little Dev love. And even if you don't want to change lasers, you really need to look at NPC resists. Guristas and Angels need to have their EM resists reduced to be more in line with the Kinetic resists of the Sansha and Blood Raiders. Amarr PVE choices are far more limited than the other factions. Also Minnie EM resists seem too high, doesn't seem inline with other factions' resists.
Lucian Alucard
Posted - 2006.06.05 02:06:00 -
[360 ]
still seems the zealot and ishtar are the two best hacs imo.
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.06.05 02:16:00 -
[361 ]
Originally by: Lucian Alucard still seems the zealot and ishtar are the two best hacs imo. Gotta disagree with you mate.Stababond....errr Vagabond - please dear god don't unnerf Hail Cerberus - number 2 pre short range missiles, maybe bumped to number 1 soonÖ Ishtar - better damage, MUCH more space for ECM. Only drawback is that it's harder to do hit and run HAC style fights with drones. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Meridius
Posted - 2006.06.05 02:16:00 -
[362 ]
Edited by: Meridius on 05/06/2006 02:22:49 Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Meridius The Truth about Hacs. Ishtar is wtfoverpowered and Cerb does more damage than a scorch Zealot, yet needs "high damage short range missiles". I'm interested in your full ishtar setup, and your vaga setup It was done using NB's spreadsheet, 425mm ACs and assault launchers (didnt think heavies would fit but dnno tbh, let me know). Ishtar has 3 heavy neutrons and some stuff. Ive heard using ions results in a much better fit but it's only a tiny bit less dps, could do another graph if u want. Originally by: Porro That graph with the ishtar's dps looks a bit odd. Ogre II's do about 470~dps with my max skills bar gallente drone spec. so that means that 3 heavy neutrons with void do 400 dps, and how do they keep hitting at 20k? And Drones sort of follow their target so shouldnt a line be drawn at 460dps across? Ishtars don't usually fit 3 guns either anyway, but I agree that multi(s? :() are pretty much mandatory on one now and, and pretty much guarantee in a hac v hac fight the other person is jammed. The deimos does do a lot of damage, but it has pretty much no tank or cap in about 30 seconds, and its agility/speed/mass is pretty crap for its role and it could really use that tad extra grid for a med nos on an ion setup. It is great for a damage dealer in a small gang though. Pretty scary cerb numbers, I don't really talk about those that much as the only ones I've had test fights with where cap injected large booster monster tanking things. Im sorry about the post and its bad formatting if its off topic I didn't really read the thread just saw that graph and wanted to post a reply :P Don't know, i just used naughty boys wonderfull spreadsheet. I think drones and missiles step down over range because its taking into account travel time. Don't forget tho, the Ishtar does get a 5% dmg bonus on hybrids. The graph has all skills maxed (there is no skill lvl adjusment on the spreadsheet afaik). Originally by: Lucian Alucard still seems the zealot and ishtar are the two best hacs imo. I don't know. I think there is an eve syndrome that makes everyone think Amarr is fine no matter what the situation is. I mean, look at the Vag. It's matching our high damage tech 2 crystals with t2 range AC ammo, does not get crippled by nos, does not get crippled by tracking disruptors, is as fast as a humming bird on *****, gets some drones it can outrun and laugh at for fun and has launchers to um, launch stuff. We need to recruit more whiners...i'm working on getting Sarmaul on team Amarr. Cross your fingers - _____
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.05 03:52:00 -
[363 ]
Edited by: Aemilus Brutus on 05/06/2006 03:53:49 Yeah, Amarr have been overpowered or balanced for so long, players just can't get their heads around them being too weak. /rant on I really hate the idea of short range higher damage missiles , and I am currently flying Caldari (I hate flying Caldari). Add that in then make normal missiles do less damage the longer they have traveled (less fuel left to add to the damage)! Oh and some sort of tracking disruptor against missiles. Since people don't want to give Amarr a boost I say nerfs all around! Let's reduce Gallente drone bays! Slow down MWDs! Nerf passive tanks, tanking for no cap is wrong! Oh, and let's make many of their frigate and cruiser weapons to hard to fit or stupid to fit on their ships! Oh and give Sansha and Bloodraiders and Angels the exact same resist of kinetic damage that EM damage has on Guristas and Angels! /rant off But really just give the Amarr a little boost.
Kaylana Syi
Posted - 2006.06.05 04:25:00 -
[364 ]
Originally by: Meridius We need to recruit more whiners...i'm working on getting Sarmaul on team Amarr. Cross your fingers After she whines about arties so my tempest get boost first. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.05 07:41:00 -
[365 ]
Well, it's a 13 pages long thread so far and so I want to make a brief summary about what's concerned by Amarrian and some suggestions to fix it. PROBLEMS: -New skills on passive tanking have brought in "accidental" tanking of EM and thermal in pvp ship which badly weaken Laser damages. -Higher stacking penalty make Amarr's once famous ganking set up being negated. -Amarr still solely the best Mid range damage deliver, however, Mid range combat is not existence as there's no facility to maintain mid range battle, only short range or long range. -Vulnable to tracking disruptor(I'm not going to mention ECM here, we already to huge thread about that and any one suffer those). -Extremely high usage of cap for guns where some ship dont have enough bonus to cope with it. -Too tight fitting on most of the ships, ie. low remain CPU, RCU II is almost a must for long range weapons fitting and pls note that for example, on out Battleship class, to fit enough long range weapons, we need at least 2 RCU II to fit a full rack. -Geddon too tight on CPU just to say that ship is meant for Pulse Laser only, extreme cap usage without in built cap bonus totally negate its tanking ability. -Apoc lost its role in combat, too low damage at short range, cap bonus not good enough to reflect it tanking ability, even using "wrong" weapon, ie. AC, on the ship still not truly make it a good tanking ship. Again, 2x RCU II is a must for full rack of Tach and low remain CPU for other mods compare to other ships. SUGGESTIONS: ok, this is only a list of suggestion so far and I dont take responsibility for all of them. -Introducing Explosive damage in crystals. -Swapping EM/Ther ratio in crystals. -Increase CPU and grids on most Amarr ships or some particular tight fitting one. -Giving Apoc Projectile damage bonus instead of laser cap use bonus. (not too sure if it's a joke). -Giving Apoc 5-7.5% armor resist bonus instead of cap bonus and a low slot to make it's pure tanking ship. -An overhaul change for Amarr, inscrease all laser damage bonus by 10%, change ROF bonus to damage bonus in some ship like Geddon, Omen to maintain acceptable DPS. Inscrease CPU/Grid/Cap from Amarr ships accross the board, greatly increase Tach damage, tach grid use and Apoc grid output, giving Apoc Armor resist bonus instead of extra cap bonus, add 1 low slot, cut back 1 high slot to make it's a Tach Snipping-Pure Tanking ship wherever possible and prevent extreme snipping ability from the Geddon when Tach is going to have so much damage. Maybe some range as well... Particular hard to do so because we have to prevent people to use 4-5 faction RCUs on their low just to fit 7 Ultra-Tachs on geddon. That'll be all, thanks for everybody that have participated in this arguement. Especially those well-convicing, solid proving from people using other race's ships. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Calleb
Posted - 2006.06.05 07:50:00 -
[366 ]
What He Said above sums up my complete apathy and dejection within the game at this time. I am an old player with way over 40 mill skill points. Unfortunately I have specialised in Amarr ships and laser weapons and dont relish the idea of retraining. (I have almost no skills in other weapons and other race ships) It now turns out that I have great skills, but in rubbish ships and rubbish weapons. There is just no way I can compete with even a 6 month old player who has made a better skills choice. So much for balance. Every time there is a stat change it just moves the balance of power, and I for one am fed up with the goalposts being moved every time there is a patch. If only the weapons stats could all be put back to how it was a few years back. It all seemed better then.
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.05 08:49:00 -
[367 ]
Edited by: BirdBleed on 05/06/2006 08:50:19 dbl post
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.05 08:50:00 -
[368 ]
no longer the king of tank, no longer the king of gank, our ships are but an empty shell :( Miridius lead us on our crusade !! amarr have the best roleplayers thats for sure :D or did that get nerfed too ?
Heiken Wimast
Posted - 2006.06.05 10:02:00 -
[369 ]
Originally by: MacQueen Well, it's a 13 pages long thread so far and so I want to make a brief summary about what's concerned by Amarrian and some suggestions to fix it. PROBLEMS: -New skills on passive tanking have brought in "accidental" tanking of EM and thermal in pvp ship which badly weaken Laser damages. -Higher stacking penalty make Amarr's once famous ganking set up being negated. -Amarr still solely the best Mid range damage deliver, however, Mid range combat is not existence as there's no facility to maintain mid range battle, only short range or long range. -Vulnable to tracking disruptor(I'm not going to mention ECM here, we already to huge thread about that and any one suffer those). -Extremely high usage of cap for guns where some ship dont have enough bonus to cope with it. -Too tight fitting on most of the ships, ie. low remain CPU, RCU II is almost a must for long range weapons fitting and pls note that for example, on out Battleship class, to fit enough long range weapons, we need at least 2 RCU II to fit a full rack. -Geddon too tight on CPU just to say that ship is meant for Pulse Laser only, extreme cap usage without in built cap bonus totally negate its tanking ability. -Apoc lost its role in combat, too low damage at short range, cap bonus not good enough to reflect it tanking ability, even using "wrong" weapon, ie. AC, on the ship still not truly make it a good tanking ship. Again, 2x RCU II is a must for full rack of Tach and low remain CPU for other mods compare to other ships. SUGGESTIONS: ok, this is only a list of suggestion so far and I dont take responsibility for all of them. -Introducing Explosive damage in crystals. -Swapping EM/Ther ratio in crystals. -Increase CPU and grids on most Amarr ships or some particular tight fitting one. -Giving Apoc Projectile damage bonus instead of laser cap use bonus. (not too sure if it's a joke). -Giving Apoc 5-7.5% armor resist bonus instead of cap bonus and a low slot to make it's pure tanking ship. -An overhaul change for Amarr, inscrease all laser damage bonus by 10%, change ROF bonus to damage bonus in some ship like Geddon, Omen to maintain acceptable DPS. Inscrease CPU/Grid/Cap from Amarr ships accross the board, greatly increase Tach damage, tach grid use and Apoc grid output, giving Apoc Armor resist bonus instead of extra cap bonus, add 1 low slot, cut back 1 high slot to make it's a Tach Snipping-Pure Tanking ship wherever possible and prevent extreme snipping ability from the Geddon when Tach is going to have so much damage. Maybe some range as well... Particular hard to do so because we have to prevent people to use 4-5 faction RCUs on their low just to fit 7 Ultra-Tachs on geddon. That'll be all, thanks for everybody that have participated in this arguement. Especially those well-convicing, solid proving from people using other race's ships. /doublesigned
Heiken Wimast
Posted - 2006.06.05 10:02:00 -
[370 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Not all Amarr ships are bad. But we have a preponderance of ships that just.....lack in comparison to other racial ships. Some are ship issues, some are weapon issues, some are underpowered bonus issues, some are a result of ammo imbalance, etc. Let's take a look at some of them.Passive Tanking Boost: Yes we needed a boost to tanking. But now, almost every ship in the game besides Caldari and some tempests passive armor tank. Where before 60% EM resist was manageable, it is common for armor tanks to have 75%+ resists to armor while not specifically kitting out to defend against Amarr.Ammo Distribution Imbalance: This goes hand in hand with the above issue. Range should be an advantage to lasers, especially in mid-long range. While other races have Carbonized Lead 12Exp/12Kin and Iron 12Kin/8Therm Amarr have Radio 20EM. Crystals should have an equitable EM/Therm split like all the other races, ESPECIALLY considering the boosts to passive tanking.Some gun fitting needs are too high: Medium Beam Lasers, Heavy Pulses - some of the Amarr weapons are WAY harder to fit than the racial Contemporaries.Some Amarr ships have the same grid/cpu layout as other racial ships that have weapons that are MUCH easier to mount: Whey does a crusader and claw both have 40pg base when the Crusader weapons are so much harder to fit?? Why does the Thrasher and Coercer have the same? Why are the Maller/Ruppie/Thorax so close in grid when lasers require so much grid more to fit? Why can a Mega fit a full rack of Neuts without a grid mod yet then Apoc can not fit a full rack of Tachys?Some Amarr non-damage bonuses need a boost: With stacking 5% per level of Armor resists isn't really enough to make a difference. It needs to be increased to at least 7.5% or make it not applicable to the stacking rules. Right now a brutix can tank just as well as a Prophecy yet has MUCH more damage potential and more mids and dronebay. Maller has the same problem. The "better" tanking just isn't appreciable in any noticeable way. The Apoc needs to lose a mostly useless cap bonus for an Armor Resist bonus as well. The Non-damage bonuses often need a larger percentage to be considered usefull. The recent brutix boost is a prime example of this.Lack of Mids, less useful lows: Mids largely determine PvP usefullness to some extent. Amarr have 2 ships with 1 mid, and many with only 2. In return we have (sometimes) an extra low that is much less useful overall. A Taranis with more mids and a dronebay is more useful than a Crusader becuase it does 90% of what a Sader can do, has a dronebay and an extra mid as well. Same with the Enyo and Retri.Useless ships, Khanid without a clue: WTH is an Omen supposed to be good at? If it's going to be a gunboat, let it do a crapload of damage and fit big guns. Right now like the Augorer its mostly useless. Khanid designs are 50/50 and therefore MASSIVELY inferior in the dps department. Let them spew missiles and armor tank. It's an interesting niche and provides DESPERATELY needed variety to Amarr ships. Right now Khanid ships are 90% inferior to other ships of thier class. Remember variety = interest = subscription retention. So this isn't comprehensive, but I think it's most of them. Individually not so large but HUGE in sum total. Nyxus /signed
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.06.05 11:34:00 -
[371 ]
actually i'd have to admit there's nothing wrong with the zealot AT ALL but this thread is about the entire race not about the zealot (or curse/pilgrim for that matter but imo those don't really add up in this topic since this is largely about guns)
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.05 16:30:00 -
[372 ]
Originally by: MacQueen -Giving Apoc 5-7.5% armor resist bonus instead of cap bonus and a low slot to make it's pure tanking ship. YES! 7.5% to resists, and increae the mallers bonus to 7.5% too Originally by: MacQueen -An overhaul change for Amarr, inscrease all laser damage bonus by 10%, change ROF bonus to damage bonus in some ship like Geddon, Omen to maintain acceptable DPS. noooooo, leave the rof bonus, its actually better than a straight damage bonus although it does mean you use more cap its a little more interesting than the straight damage bonus too, although i would like to see 5% to damage on the tier 3 bs if its gonna be a tach boat massively more grid on omen and maller or massively reduced grid need of medium sized pulse lasers little bit more cpu for geddon
Kardim
Posted - 2006.06.05 16:44:00 -
[373 ]
Ok let me begin by saying, on paper everything is different than ingame. So lotsa numbers means sheeeet if one ship will pwn another in almost all circumstances, and there is always a countermeasure to a way of pwn, but many ships are limited to counter some pwn types. The limitations ingame are presented to us gradually as we try to fit our ships with what we want and realize that we have been gimped where as we have trained all our skills to lvl 5 to be uber and are held back by not only fitting just the guns onto a ship but the support modules as well, as guns rarely mean i win. You need to take atleast a bit o dmg to some degree, be it armor or sheild rep/booster. I have looked at different ships and thought jeez Amarr does seem more gimped to fit most ships compared to other races, so have looked at weapon and ships (interceptor, and long range small weapons today) I am looking at weapn and ship only no ship bonus etc or skill bonus's at all. some will whine but omg amarr cap bonus allows u to use your uber weapons.. : / and i wish i knew where u people lived so i could..... *cough* erm convince you otherwise: so with my meager and challanged math skills i hope to do this right, tho im sure ill fail but i think ill get my message accross atleast (: I am not arguing damage in this post as that i feel is skewed a bit considering the requirements tho ill post these numbers (longest range t1 ammo cept missles all about same), range is not also being scrutinized here but ill include the numbers atleast to keep in with the topic. firstly ill start with the crow and standard t2 launchers, launchers have no exact range and skills matter greatly after the missle balance. crows fitting are 35 pg and 150 cpu, if you fit 3 t2 standards on her and your looking at about 18.75k range w/ light missles and looks like about 6.25 dps per launcher (18.75 for 3) now a t2 stand has reqs of 28cpu, 8pg. x3 is 84cpu, 27pg i say 3 as only 3 launcher slots so x3 in percentages is 77.14% pg and 56% cpu usage to fit crows 3 launchers only,, feels abit high but its reasonable you could still fit a booster and even a nos blah blah,,,, but you say omgwtf amarr pwnzors everything keep them gimped they have 4 lasers on the crusader, i say ok well compare all w/ 4x percentages also, if you could fit 4 t2 standards ur looking at 102.85% pg and 74% cpu fittings. taranis is next w/ 35 pg and 150 cpu also, fitting 3x t2 150 rails using iron s, looking around 32k (including falloff) using 2.338 cap per round (iron cap reduc) per hit is 9.9 kin and 6.6 therm 16.5 together per gun, and 3.88 dps (3x 11.64) and looking at the percentage of cap used per volley it comes out by 2.55% used per volley w/ all 3 turrets. fitting percentages for 3x are 94.2% pg and 56% cpu and ok ok 4x just for comparison measures 125.71% pg and 74.67% cpu. you say ee*** that would be a tough fit omg i would need to put on a micro aux.. : / that would suck,, yup claw is next up to bat, having 40 pg and 100 cpu, fitting 3x 280mm howi 2's with carbonized lead s, about 33.2k range (including falloff) about 20.7 exp and 20.7 kin per round per gun (41.4 total) dps is roughtly 3.94 (3x 11.82) percentage fittings are, 3x 97.5% pg and 48% cpu fittings, and to keep it comparable tho not usable 4x howi 2's, 130% pg and 64% cpu... omg 130% is huge thank god i only have 3 turret slots u say (: yup now comes my favorite ship ingame, tho im not sure why as ive never won a fair 1vs1 pvp fight : / tho i can kill a few npc's.. but npc is a bit boring if done more than few mins aday. crusader has 4 turret slots filled w/ medium beam 2's with radios so everyone thinks well sheesh shes ahead of the game and wtfpwnzor every other inty with ease,,, yes yes yes on paper she looks beautiful... coming in w/ 40 pg and 100 cpu just like the claw, tho shes no match for the claw,,, trust me. range is 25.6k (falloff inc) 6.137 cap usage per shot per gun (wow) coming in w/ a whooooping 18 em damage per shot.
Kardim
Posted - 2006.06.05 16:45:00 -
[374 ]
And 4.5 dps (4x 18 dps) you say omg that rocks... and yes it does,, tho its not practicle. the percentage of cap used per volley using all 4 turrets is 8.18% not including ship bonus but that about 1/2's it so still 1/4 more than the taranis other 2 dont matter as they dont use cap at all so they can pwzor while nos/neut now comes the percentages, now for crusader since she has 4x turret slots unlike the other ships, well hop straight to 4x 180% pg and 72% cpu.... *pauses for effect* yes yes yes i know inty's arent supposed to be for long range... blah blah blah... now all other races are capable of squeezing them on.... and amarr are just special... your right atm we are special we ride the short bus, no pun intended to the actual short bus squad ofc (: i am not whining (well maybe a little) tho i am angry, as ccp should have noticed this a good bit ago, tho i think they made amarr suck on purpose cause gall, mini ppls whined so hard they just said screeew them well nerf them for a few yrs and maybe someday let them compete again. well i think that time has come (: let us compete again
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.06.05 16:47:00 -
[375 ]
Originally by: Meridius I think drones and missiles step down over range because its taking into account travel time. That's how it works, yeah. Pretty much useless for 2 minutes + figth time, but interesting for shorter duration. I noticed that the header doesn't show in your version, which is probably a problem during the conversion to Open Office, I'll see if I can fix that. Originally by: Meridius The graph has all skills maxed (there is no skill lvl adjusment on the spreadsheet afaik). Nope, I tried at some point but that was a pain, with formulas gettings outside the max character length and similar annoyances. NB.
Cosmo Raata
Posted - 2006.06.05 18:02:00 -
[376 ]
Upon first reading this post, I passed on posting...mostly because I figured us amarr have never been able to convince anyone of either not nerfing or boosting something amarr, so I just decided to forget about it. 13 pages later, with many great posts I've decided to give my 2 cents. 1) Beams, fix them....as of right now, they do less rof yet the same damage mod as pulses, with more cap usage & higher fitting requirements. I hate the apoc because of this, beams suck, therefore my apoc sucks. --Solution : 2 of the problems changed will be enough to make them worthwhile. 1) They need enough damage to make up for the crappy em damage type for the long range crystals, add thermal, explosive, more em, Dont care, they just plain need a lot of work. Cruiser & Frig sized beams need to be easier to fit, atm hardly anyone uses them because of this. 2) Tanking, we're not as good as we should be/used to be. Apoc needs a better niche, which I think should be a massive tank. Megathrons tank so much better than apocs atm it isn't even funny. All of them dual Rep, have as much resistance & have full resistance to boot (yes, we could do the same, but its our armor that we're supposed to be known for). Everyone knows to primary the geddon because it can dish out great dps but tanks about as well as a BC. --Solution : Give Apoc different bonus (armor resistance bonus, but more than the 5%, increase all armor bonuses to amarr ships (who already get the 5%) up to 10% & increase overall armor ammounts to all amarr ships. 3) Mid slots, Only a few ships need to be given them, Retribution needs to be given a second mid slot, take away the useless high slot. Same with maller, Prophecy/Absolution, crusader needs a 3rd. We just have a tough time being more than helpers in pvp, whereas everyone else can hold their own. --Solution : Follow the above, come up with something else, just help us to be able to pvp more, I'm tired of having the best mining bs, best mission running ships. I just think the amarr race needs a complete overhaul. There is so much evidence that the amarr race needs help in many different areas, I think so many people have stuck with amarr because we've been waiting our turn for a boost, like EVERY OTHER RACE HAS GOTTEN. Its time to Boost the Amarr. I could go on & on with history lessons about why amarr should be better than they are, Just realize its our turn to be looked at as a whole & do the right thing ccp.
Frankizard
Posted - 2006.06.05 18:07:00 -
[377 ]
YES YES Amarr has much to regain to be PVP worthy. SIGNED
Lord Seth'Mistress
Posted - 2006.06.05 18:09:00 -
[378 ]
Signed
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.05 20:43:00 -
[379 ]
Thank god all the 'Amarr is just fine even though I dont fly it-boost cerberus' dorks has gone.
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.06 04:56:00 -
[380 ]
*retri needs 4-2-5 slot layout *zealot needs another turret hardpoint and grid/cpu to fit *apoc needs cap bonus changed to 7.5% resistance *maller/proph needs 5% resistance boosted to 7.5% *arma needs a tiny bit more cpu *sacrilege needs a major rework, worst hac by far *crusader needs more grid *med beam lazers need to be easier to fit *The 10% lazer cap use bonus thats on all amarr ships needs to be changed to 15% long live amarr :>
BlackHorizon
Posted - 2006.06.06 05:58:00 -
[381 ]
Signed.
Deva Blackfire
Posted - 2006.06.06 06:17:00 -
[382 ]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 06/06/2006 06:20:28 Additional to this list: - Khanid problem needs to be sorted out (ie: find the role they should have). Vengeance, Malediction, Sacri, Heretic - you can ALWAYS find a ship that can do their work better (and even do more damage at the same time//be faster etc O_O)
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.06 06:22:00 -
[383 ]
Originally by: Meridius We need to recruit more whiners...i'm working on getting Sarmaul on team Amarr. Cross your fingers Exactly what we need, its worked for the other races Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Scary Noises
Posted - 2006.06.06 06:58:00 -
[384 ]
The powergrid needed to fit cruiser-sized beams is just crazy. And... This thread is in desperate need of more pages.
The ArchWarder
Posted - 2006.06.06 09:33:00 -
[385 ]
14 pages and not a single DEV post. I think we are MOST over due for one.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.06 09:57:00 -
[386 ]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 06/06/2006 09:58:22 Indeed, wheres all the luv? Common brothers, this is by far our most important crusade yet Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Groes Thir
Posted - 2006.06.06 10:06:00 -
[387 ]
Edited by: Groes Thir on 06/06/2006 10:09:05 As Tuxie stated in his blog, his influence contaminates the thread (filling it with bullpoo). This doesn't mean that the yellow lined people aren't watching you So, keep the constructive posts coming (this isn't one, start your flamethrowers)
Tar Ecthelion
Posted - 2006.06.06 17:40:00 -
[388 ]
Agree on most topics, specially need the Khanid ships to have a distinct role ... Armour tanking missile ships gets my vote And we need to be able to sish out explosive damage on our lasers, or at least more thermal. Em is sh*te. ..... "When you kill a man it costs nothing to be polite" Winston Churchill
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.06 18:48:00 -
[389 ]
Originally by: Groes Thir Edited by: Groes Thir on 06/06/2006 10:09:05 As Tuxie stated in his blog, his influence contaminates the thread (filling it with bullpoo). This doesn't mean that the yellow lined people aren't watching you So, keep the constructive posts coming (this isn't one, start your flamethrowers) then.. tux give us a signal and make your own thread :P
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.07 03:47:00 -
[390 ]
Well, sometime I feel it's no good to be reasonable, just try to post some crazy overpower suggestions, so we can keep on all those nasty arguement and so on, make the thread turn 100 pages long easily. Now, it's on 3rd page !!! ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Vishnupriya Sarasvati
Posted - 2006.06.07 03:56:00 -
[391 ]
You have my support in the form of this bump.
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.07 04:15:00 -
[392 ]
Bump Power! Easy summary! 1. EM damage not much damage 2. Tanks not so good anymore 3. Cruisers can't fit most cruiser weapons 4. NPC resists not fair, I mean just look at it, LOOK AT IT! 5. Geddon was paper tiger, now just paper! 5. Apoc.... Apoc.... poor poor Apoc
N0CTURN
Posted - 2006.06.07 04:35:00 -
[393 ]
Boost Lasers. The Laser dont have tracking problems. Beams are constant. Pulse are accumulated Beams (CoolDown or PowerGrace). I dont think fast military Skeeboats Could takeon a Battleship.(just a reflection)
Marley Princip
Posted - 2006.06.07 04:46:00 -
[394 ]
If only we got a sign from tux...
Kardim
Posted - 2006.06.07 04:51:00 -
[395 ]
alright, from last post feedback was it was too long and wordy.... (: data summary's frigs w/ most grid and long range weapons, no skils or ammo etc.. taken into account or ship bonus merlin w/ 2x 150 rail 2's and 2x standard launch 2's requires 74.66% cpu to fit 114.28% pg to fit and 2.67% cap used per volley tristan w/ 2x 150 rail 2's and 2x standard launcher 2's (for comparison only) 89.6% cpu to fit 114.28% pg to fit and 2.67% cap/volley rifter w/ 2x 280 howi 2's and 2x standard launch 2's 88% cpu to fit 125.7% pg to fit o cap/volley punisher comparison w/ 3x and 4x (compare only) med beam 2's 3x 50.4% cpu to fit 128.57% pg to fit and 7.22% cap/volley 4x 67.2% cpu to fit 171.42% to fit and 9.62% cap/volley here you can see at the frigate level lasers are hardest to fit even tho they have more pg than rest... and all of this isnt practicle to have long range guns on ships but it should be an option, medium beams should not only be for cruisers :P a recap of the inty post i did so its easier to read crow 4x launcher 2's(compare only) 102.85% pg needed to fit 74% cpu to fit taranis 4x 150 rail 2's (compare only) 125.71% pg needed to fit 74.67% cpu to fit 4.85% cap/volley claw 4x 280mm howi 2's (compare only) 130% pg needed to fit 64% cpu needed to fit crusader 4x med beam 2's (actual) 180% pg needed to fit 72% cpu needed to fit 9.62% cap/volley
Tash Murkon
Posted - 2006.06.07 04:52:00 -
[396 ]
CCP, I hereby demand an official response. Tash Murkon.
Kardim
Posted - 2006.06.07 05:14:00 -
[397 ]
cruiser fits moa w/ 4x 250 rail 2's and 2x heavy launchers 81.7% cpu to fit 153.86% pg to fit and a 3.63% cap/volley rupture w/ 4x 720 howi 2's and 2x heavy 2's 86.54% cpu to fit 180.54% pg to fit 0 cap/volley thorax w/ 5x 250 rail 2's and a 6x 250 rail 2's (comparison only) 5x 73.33% cpu to fit 168.57% pg to fit w/ 4.54 cap/volley 6x 88% cpu to fit 202.28 pg to fit w/ 5.45% cap/volley maller w/ 5x heavy beam 2's and 6x heavy beam 2's (comparison only) 5x 61.66% cpu to fit 161.76% pg to fit and 9.02% cap/volley 6x 74% cpu to fit 194.11% pg to fit and 10.83% cap/volley here the thorax is tighter to fit than maller, but overall fitings, cap usage, and supposed dmg+tanker all taken into factor seems quite a good bit off.. tho thorax looks to suffer also as intended for use w/ mwd. battleships gets sticky w/ setups... because there are far more ways to do so especially raven and tempest i tried to keep it simple accross the board w/ 6 main weapons then 2 alternate raven w/ 6x siege 2's and 2x 425 rail 2's 97% cpu to fit 171.34% pg to fit 1.41% cap/volley tempest w/ 6x 1400 howi 2's and 2x siege 2's 83.27% cpu to fit 162.10 pg to fit megathron w/ 6x 425 rail 2's and 2x siege 2's 116% cpu to fit 125% pg to fit and 4% cap/volley apoc w/ 6x mega beams 2's and 2x siege 2's 104.8% cpu to fit 128.85 pg to fit and 8.12% cap/volley then apoc w/ 8x mega beam 2's 92.8% cpu to fit 146.66% pg to fit and 10.83% cap/volley now apoc w/ 6x tach 2's and 2x siege 2's 110.8% cpu to fit 145.77% pg to fit and 11.87% cap/volley finally apoc w/ 8x tach 2's as god intended 100.8% cpu to fit 169.23% pg to fit and using 15.83% cap/volley and the only ship that seems to have a bit higher fit than the poc w/ tach is the raven.. but nobody really puts 425's w/ their launchers cause missles wtf pwn anything anyways... i wont start on how many ppl use the raven as their sole ship .... just thought id put the numbers up of % of grid it takes to fit ships to give ppl a better idea what they speak (: fittings vs dmg vs cap sucks... we maybe dont need a complete redo of amarr (tho i think that would be best) but atleast a little massaging of stats etc would make it usable again... frig class guns need whole redo tho (:
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.07 13:29:00 -
[398 ]
Originally by: Kardim cruiser fits moa w/ 4x 250 rail 2's and 2x heavy launchers 81.7% cpu to fit 153.86% pg to fit and a 3.63% cap/volley rupture w/ 4x 720 howi 2's and 2x heavy 2's 86.54% cpu to fit 180.54% pg to fit 0 cap/volley thorax w/ 5x 250 rail 2's and a 6x 250 rail 2's (comparison only) 5x 73.33% cpu to fit 168.57% pg to fit w/ 4.54 cap/volley 6x 88% cpu to fit 202.28 pg to fit w/ 5.45% cap/volley maller w/ 5x heavy beam 2's and 6x heavy beam 2's (comparison only) 5x 61.66% cpu to fit 161.76% pg to fit and 9.02% cap/volley 6x 74% cpu to fit 194.11% pg to fit and 10.83% cap/volley here the thorax is tighter to fit than maller, but overall fitings, cap usage, and supposed dmg+tanker all taken into factor seems quite a good bit off.. tho thorax looks to suffer also as intended for use w/ mwd. battleships gets sticky w/ setups... because there are far more ways to do so especially raven and tempest i tried to keep it simple accross the board w/ 6 main weapons then 2 alternate raven w/ 6x siege 2's and 2x 425 rail 2's 97% cpu to fit 171.34% pg to fit 1.41% cap/volley tempest w/ 6x 1400 howi 2's and 2x siege 2's 83.27% cpu to fit 162.10 pg to fit megathron w/ 6x 425 rail 2's and 2x siege 2's 116% cpu to fit 125% pg to fit and 4% cap/volley apoc w/ 6x mega beams 2's and 2x siege 2's 104.8% cpu to fit 128.85 pg to fit and 8.12% cap/volley then apoc w/ 8x mega beam 2's 92.8% cpu to fit 146.66% pg to fit and 10.83% cap/volley now apoc w/ 6x tach 2's and 2x siege 2's 110.8% cpu to fit 145.77% pg to fit and 11.87% cap/volley finally apoc w/ 8x tach 2's as god intended 100.8% cpu to fit 169.23% pg to fit and using 15.83% cap/volley and the only ship that seems to have a bit higher fit than the poc w/ tach is the raven.. but nobody really puts 425's w/ their launchers cause missles wtf pwn anything anyways... i wont start on how many ppl use the raven as their sole ship .... just thought id put the numbers up of % of grid it takes to fit ships to give ppl a better idea what they speak (: fittings vs dmg vs cap sucks... we maybe dont need a complete redo of amarr (tho i think that would be best) but atleast a little massaging of stats etc would make it usable again... frig class guns need whole redo tho (: No more need to say, Signed for a good post. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.07 13:45:00 -
[399 ]
The Devs have forsaken us! Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
comrade captain
Posted - 2006.06.07 13:52:00 -
[400 ]
some great points here guys, i just finished training for an absolution after liking the zealot for a while and the lack of damage or firepower even with maxed gunnery skills on anything with a half decent tank is a true farce. signed
Tel Bakhara
Posted - 2006.06.07 15:17:00 -
[401 ]
So from the words above I think ppl pointed out that the key point is: it is the Lasers not Amarr that sux. And ppl think the more laser bonus a ship has, the crappier it is? And you guyz mean that Punisher,Maller,Apoc is better than Omen, Geddon? Agreed! the fact is, the more turrent bonus a Amarr ship have, the more we spit 'bout it. Poor Sacrilege... Dunno how many Amarr pilots are fitting non-laser weapons, Guess tis 1/4...Grrr
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.06.07 15:24:00 -
[402 ]
Originally by: Tel Bakhara Dunno how many Amarr pilots are fitting non-laser weapons, Guess tis 1/4...Grrr Lets see...here's a list of my commonly used ships: I have two Armageddons. One has 5 mega beams (no skill to fit more...oh well, got dual light pulse II:s to compensate) and the other has full rack of 1200mm named projectiles. I have two Prophecies. One has heavy anode particle streams and the other has full rack of 650mm Scouts. I don't use the former at all because it sucks. I have two Mallers. Both have T2 pulse lasers and other assorted stuff. So 2 out of 8 -> 1/4 ships I use have projectiles as guns so I'd say your guess is quite accurate. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.07 15:29:00 -
[403 ]
Er... 2 + 2 + 2 = 8?
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.06.07 15:54:00 -
[404 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Er... 2 + 2 + 2 = 8? Oh great, forgot two suicide frigs :D So to add up, 2 el cheapo Executioners meant entirely for exploding. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
The ArchWarder
Posted - 2006.06.08 03:07:00 -
[405 ]
I dont see any reason why they cant just swap the EM and Therm dammage around so that lasers to more Therm dammage than EM. Dont say nething about racial dammage either, just look at gallente and their kin dammage, minmitar with their (all) dammage and caldari with their (all) dammage.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.08 04:14:00 -
[406 ]
Originally by: The ArchWarder I dont see any reason why they cant just swap the EM and Therm dammage around so that lasers to more Therm dammage than EM. Dont say nething about racial dammage either, just look at gallente and their kin dammage, minmitar with their (all) dammage and caldari with their (all) dammage. looks to me that amarr needs to get up on the medium and long range dmg if that is going to be their role now. gallente had their boost now and is great for close range and very good for long range. minmatar and caldari does all dmg types so they should be lower in dmg output and stay there. amarr needs to be boosted. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.08 05:24:00 -
[407 ]
14 pages and no Devs. I think they are off flying thier Blasterthrons and Domis around Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.06.08 05:32:00 -
[408 ]
To all those that whant 2 do something about our lasers that suck 90 % of the time . We first need to keep out those stupid forum *****s that ruin our topics just cuz they think their race shoud rule . Amarr need the falowing improvments: 1. A new type of damage as lasers are very predictable. And even ferox shield tankers can tank an Armageddon 2. Pulse lasers need a better range. There range need to be boosted whit about 25% of their current range. 3. Lasers need a improvment in traking or Amarr ships will be forced to give up e-war slots for traking computers even if they're not sniping. 4. The dev's are not going to swap EM damage for thermal as EM damage is Amarr racial damage. The dev's will boost the lasers only if we all agree on several points points and suport this changes.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.08 05:50:00 -
[409 ]
- Stop asking for a Dev response, it's unlikely we will get one. Read Tuxfords dev blog. And I must say I can understand his reasoning. Although it is kinda frustrating not to know if he sees it as valid issue or not. - Another thing about Amarr ships not exactly being top of the line: Just look at the "I need a ship for xy, what would you recommend" posts. Is it just me or do people recommend Amarr ships only very rarely there?
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.08 06:52:00 -
[410 ]
Originally by: Rockbox 14 pages and no Devs. I think they are off flying thier Blasterthrons and Domis around Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.08 06:59:00 -
[411 ]
How to beat an amarr ship, *nos/neut it till its cap runs out *jamm/damp/tracking disrupt it *get under its guns a domi and raven can counter all of these things. minmatar ships can still fire if they run out of cap So amarr having no counters, chose to go for most dmg/tank. Yet ships that can counter ewar/nos can tank as good if not better and do more dmg/dmg types
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.08 08:11:00 -
[412 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Rockbox 14 pages and no Devs. I think they are off flying thier Blasterthrons and Domis around Why are you here? No seriously, if you have nothing constructive to post you're just wasting forum space. Now go, go little man.
Deva Blackfire
Posted - 2006.06.08 08:14:00 -
[413 ]
Originally by: Methuselar That's what make Amarr sux since Amarrians are mostly pure gunners. Muahahhaha - MWDing armageddon with full rack of heavy pulses (with ROF bonus). Me wants one of those toys :D
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.08 08:14:00 -
[414 ]
Originally by: Methuselar Most Drone bonus apply to all size of drones Most missiles bonus apply to all size of missiles While gun bonus only apply to one size-small,med or large. That's what make Amarr sux since Amarrians are mostly pure gunners. If, all Amarr ship's laser bonus would apply to ALL size of lasers, that will make great difference! lower sized gun + oversized amor/prop are very popular among Amarrs.Good point!
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.08 08:16:00 -
[415 ]
Originally by: General Apocalypse To all those that whant 2 do something about our lasers that suck 90 % of the time . We first need to keep out those stupid forum *****s that ruin our topics just cuz they think their race shoud rule . Amarr need the falowing improvments: 1. A new type of damage as lasers are very predictable. And even ferox shield tankers can tank an Armageddon 2. Pulse lasers need a better range. There range need to be boosted whit about 25% of their current range. 3. Lasers need a improvment in traking or Amarr ships will be forced to give up e-war slots for traking computers even if they're not sniping. 4. The dev's are not going to swap EM damage for thermal as EM damage is Amarr racial damage. The dev's will boost the lasers only if we all agree on several points points and suport this changes. 1) Yeah, and hybrid charges aren't predictable... 2) Are you serious? You mean you want MP2s to go back to how they were before their range was nerfed because they were overpowered? Oh... 3) Improvement in tracking? Um... 1400 II: 48K/35K range and .009 tracking, tach II: 52.8K/20K range and .014 tracking. Which means optimal on tachs is 55.6% better than 1400s, and you are whining about it? Please. 4) Damn, you got one right. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.08 08:20:00 -
[416 ]
Originally by: Methuselar Most Drone bonus apply to all size of drones Most missiles bonus apply to all size of missiles If, all Amarr ship's laser bonus would apply to ALL size of lasers, that will make great difference! Does that mean my 5% dmg bonus on my gal ships will get changed too? Yay! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.08 08:20:00 -
[417 ]
with tux's new idea of prolonging combat im miffed on how he thinks of doing that. if dmg is lowered across the board any other BS will be able to tank the amarr until they run out of cap wich no other race will do to the same extent. if resistances is increased across the board then amarr is screwed again due to the high resists of their main dmg type EM. if armor and shields are increased then its the same as armor got a huge resist to EM and its not so hard to get pretty good EM resist on shields either nowadays. and any combination of these will even further screw up amarr. i fail to see how the Devs are thinking. can we get the old "ship balancer" dev back pls? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.08 08:26:00 -
[418 ]
Originally by: Xendie with tux's new idea of prolonging combat im miffed on how he thinks of doing that. if dmg is lowered across the board any other BS will be able to tank the amarr until they run out of cap wich no other race will do to the same extent. if resistances is increased across the board then amarr is screwed again due to the high resists of their main dmg type EM. if armor and shields are increased then its the same as armor got a huge resist to EM and its not so hard to get pretty good EM resist on shields either nowadays. and any combination of these will even further screw up amarr. i fail to see how the Devs are thinking. can we get the old "ship balancer" dev back pls? How does increasing shield/armor hp act like a "huge resist to EM"? An HP increase is NOT the same thing as a resistance increase. Also, how exactly does increased HP only affect amarr? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.08 08:36:00 -
[419 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus 1) Yeah, and hybrid charges aren't predictable... Exept most hybrid ships can supplement their hybrid damage with drones or missles. Read: most. Not all. But for Amarr ships it IS "all". Also, the current trend for tanking goes towards 2-3 EANII, hybrid damage is not nearly as diminished as laser damage here.
Deva Blackfire
Posted - 2006.06.08 08:41:00 -
[420 ]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 08/06/2006 08:41:50 Letifer: I hope you know that megapulse t2 with multi has optimal of 15km and it barely hits targets moving at 150m/s at this optimal (dont remember exact value - im not in game atm to check). If target gets a bit closer then you start to see *miss* *miss* *miss*. And with 15km range getting that *bit* closer is... well - too easy. One MWD/2x AB boost from enemy ship and suddenly megapulses dont hit at all. Also one more q: do you fly amarr ships? Want to be sure...
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.08 08:45:00 -
[421 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Rockbox 14 pages and no Devs. I think they are off flying thier Blasterthrons and Domis around Why are you here? No seriously, if you have nothing constructive to post you're just wasting forum space. Now go, go little man. Its funny thats all if devs were flying Bt's and domis then there would have been a proper blasterfix Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Madcat Adams
Posted - 2006.06.08 08:46:00 -
[422 ]
CCP, throw us a frickin bone here -Amarr Pilot There are many good points brought up in this thread, not least of all our diminishing tanking abilites, as well as lasers in general.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.08 09:26:00 -
[423 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Originally by: Xendie with tux's new idea of prolonging combat im miffed on how he thinks of doing that. if dmg is lowered across the board any other BS will be able to tank the amarr until they run out of cap wich no other race will do to the same extent. if resistances is increased across the board then amarr is screwed again due to the high resists of their main dmg type EM. if armor and shields are increased then its the same as armor got a huge resist to EM and its not so hard to get pretty good EM resist on shields either nowadays. and any combination of these will even further screw up amarr. i fail to see how the Devs are thinking. can we get the old "ship balancer" dev back pls? How does increasing shield/armor hp act like a "huge resist to EM"? An HP increase is NOT the same thing as a resistance increase. Also, how exactly does increased HP only affect amarr? a HP increase would hurt amarr ships the most. 3 races armor tanks their ships, amarr gallente and minmatar 2 of the races shield tank, Caldari and minmatar minmatar has extra resists versus amarr weapons with a increased armor on ships who armor tank and thus has the most armor to chew through would get even worse for amarr as amarr does primarily EM dmg wich is the absolutely highest average resisted dmg type. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.08 10:22:00 -
[424 ]
Edited by: Rockbox on 08/06/2006 10:23:18 Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Rockbox 14 pages and no Devs. I think they are off flying thier Blasterthrons and Domis around Why are you here? No seriously, if you have nothing constructive to post you're just wasting forum space. Now go, go little man. /me points and shouts "Hey look! he didnt read all 15 pages and hasent seen any of the input I have already made to this thread! I dare say! Double Edit: And obviously has no sense of humor! Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Weryl
Posted - 2006.06.08 10:24:00 -
[425 ]
First I would like to say I do play Amarr ships. Now to be honest I think giving Amarr a crystal with explosive damage on it is an extremely BAD idea. Basically you'd have a race with the best base damage to shielding AND armor.That's not exactly balancing. Instead of explosive damage .. why not kinetic? I'm not here to argue physics of laser do / do not have kinetic damage. I'm more interested in balancing the Amarr damage out some. Here is the list of Small Laser crystals and their damage. ( Medium crystals do 2x small and large do 2x Med so I'm not typing out all the numbers for those) Small (Current) Radio------------5 EM / 0 Thermal Microwave-------4 EM / 2 Thermal Infrared---------5 EM / 2 Thermal Standard--------5 EM / 3 Thermal Ultraviolet-------6 EM / 3 Thermal Xray--------------6 EM / 4 Thermal Gamma-----------7 EM / 4 Thermal Multifrequency---7 EM / 5 Thermal Small (Proposed Changes) Radio------------2 EM / 1 Thermal / 2 Kinetic Microwave--------2 EM / 2 Thermal / 2 Kinetic Infrared---------3 EM / 2 Thermal / 2 Kinetic Standard---------3 EM / 3 Thermal / 2 Kinetic Ultraviolet------4 EM / 3 Thermal / 2 Kinetic Xray-------------4 EM / 4 Thermal / 2 Kinetic Gamma------------5 EM / 4 Thermal / 2 Kinetic Multifrequency---5 EM / 5 Thermal / 2 Kinetic Not exactly sure how this would work out .. but since even the crapiest ships have base 60% EM resist, average Amarr damage SHOULD go up.
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.08 10:28:00 -
[426 ]
Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 08/06/2006 10:23:18 Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Rockbox 14 pages and no Devs. I think they are off flying thier Blasterthrons and Domis around Why are you here? No seriously, if you have nothing constructive to post you're just wasting forum space. Now go, go little man. /me points and shouts "Hey look! he didnt read all 15 pages and hasent seen any of the input I have already made to this thread! I dare say! Double Edit: And obviously has no sense of humor! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=254940&page=23#672 go read that 20+ pages of problems with all the information on how to fix the problem and the dev response comes on page 23, if you read what i said in my reply to Gordock is posted beacuse if the devs realy were flying Blasterthrons all the time then there would have been a proper blaster fix. oh and im interested in how I have no sense of humour Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.08 10:32:00 -
[427 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 Its funny thats all if devs were flying Bt's and domis then there would have been a proper blasterfix This is an Amarr thread, go spew your blaster non sense elswhere. KTHNXBYE!
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.08 10:34:00 -
[428 ]
Edited by: Rockbox on 08/06/2006 10:34:58 Ahh! So we just need to get this thread in the low twenties page wise then! Tally ho! So are you implying that they are all flying around Apocs? Edit: yeah btw, stick with the Amarr chatter here, leave the outside references to prove points for the bias only Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.08 10:36:00 -
[429 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Spartan239 Its funny thats all if devs were flying Bt's and domis then there would have been a proper blasterfix This is an Amarr thread, go spew your blaster non sense elswhere. KTHNXBYE! Just making a point @Rockbox: Maybe you do maybe a dev will pop in before that and no all the devs fly around in ravens cept tomb who flies round in pests Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.08 10:48:00 -
[430 ]
Thanks for taking the time to proveme wrong. Anyways... Dps of Amarrian weaponry on tanked HPs..... discuss! Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.08 10:50:00 -
[431 ]
Originally by: Rockbox Thanks for taking the time to proveme wrong. Anyways... Dps of Amarrian weaponry on tanked HPs..... discuss! Hail and Barrage do kin/exp as do lots of the minimatar t1 ammo with the upped use of invuls on ships like ravens how come there not moaning Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.08 11:03:00 -
[432 ]
Hmm maybe thats the wrong ammo for the job then... and in the circumstance that would have EMP do more dps than t2 ammo (if thats what your implying) then use it... But guess what.... All Amarr ammo does about 2 parts EM 1 Par thermal even t2 omg! Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.08 11:06:00 -
[433 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Rockbox Thanks for taking the time to proveme wrong. Anyways... Dps of Amarrian weaponry on tanked HPs..... discuss! Hail and Barrage do kin/exp as do lots of the minimatar t1 ammo with the upped use of invuls on ships like ravens how come there not moaning they got EMP ammo that does *shock* EM and Explosive dmg. also they can do over 3kdmg with one shot thus making it a theoretical 3k*6=18k dmg Amarr i think ive seen one shot ever over 2k and just barely, nevertheless 2k*8=16k dmg and no explosive dmg on the end for the armor. that is one extreme volley each and yes ive seen the over 3k with tech1 ammo on tech2 guns for minmatar, ive only seen 2k hits for amarr with gleam T2 crystal. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.08 11:16:00 -
[434 ]
And "supposedly" Lasers put out more raw dps than any gun to comphensate for their crap dmg types? Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Nifel
Posted - 2006.06.08 11:26:00 -
[435 ]
Originally by: Xendie they got EMP ammo that does *shock* EM and Explosive dmg. also they can do over 3kdmg with one shot thus making it a theoretical 3k*6=18k dmg Amarr i think ive seen one shot ever over 2k and just barely, nevertheless 2k*8=16k dmg and no explosive dmg on the end for the armor. that is one extreme volley each and yes ive seen the over 3k with tech1 ammo on tech2 guns for minmatar, ive only seen 2k hits for amarr with gleam T2 crystal. He was talking about hail and barrage which is AC ammo. So no... you won't see 3k shots with ACs. 3k shots are pre-RMR btw. EMP also has lower raw damage than both AM and MF. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.08 12:01:00 -
[436 ]
Originally by: Nifel ...EMP also has lower raw damage than both AM and MF. Yes, but unless you like shooting at cargo cans or freighters "raw damage" is not really the statistic you should look for.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.08 12:03:00 -
[437 ]
Edited by: Xendie on 08/06/2006 12:03:18 and a tempest can get to 20x dmg modifier with arties while a apoc with tachs get what? 11-13? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Meridius
Posted - 2006.06.08 12:09:00 -
[438 ]
Originally by: Nifel EMP also has lower raw damage than both AM and MF. That doesn't count anymore. Projectiles have been boosted several times factoring in those numbers. They could have easily boosted EMP to 48 instead of buffing the dmg mod but they didn't and it doesn't matter. It's actually a big help for Minmatar when it comes to t2 ammo. Barrage does the same damage as EMP while hybrid/laser ranged t2 ammo does 9% then AM/MF. Hail will give you a 36% damage boost over EMP (once they unnerf it) vs the 25% hybrids and lasers get over AM/MF. - _____
Al Haquis
Posted - 2006.06.08 12:14:00 -
[439 ]
Originally by: Xendie Edited by: Xendie on 08/06/2006 12:03:18 and a tempest can get to 20x dmg modifier with arties while a apoc with tachs get what? 11-13? You didnt get the mail about the apoc beeing the tanker while the geddon is the dmg ship. But the main bonus of amarrian ships is that they dont eat through ammo like rabit dogs. Trust me this is a huge bonus. With love from Al Haquis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Council Member, Tahiri WarriorMasuat'aa Forums
Kcel Chim
Posted - 2006.06.08 12:15:00 -
[440 ]
Originally by: Xendie Edited by: Xendie on 08/06/2006 12:03:18 and a tempest can get to 20x dmg modifier with arties while a apoc with tachs get what? 11-13? compare that with 8 guns vs 6, rof on both guns and not to forget the lack of dmg related boni on the apoc. The apoc does not shine as a dmg dealer but it has other qualities, tank and miners anyone ?
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.08 13:20:00 -
[441 ]
Originally by: Al Haquis You didnt get the mail about the apoc beeing the tanker while the geddon is the dmg ship. Ehh? The apoc's tank isnt anything special anymore. Quote: But the main bonus of amarrian ships is that they dont eat through ammo like rabit dogs. Thats a bonus? I'd be happy to have ammo like the other races the way things are today. Besides the crap fall of range nullefies that bonus. Quote: Trust me this is a huge bonus. No.
Methuselar
Posted - 2006.06.08 15:11:00 -
[442 ]
Actually all turrrents are just secondary racial feature. G's main feature is drones M's main feature is speed C's main feature is missile A's main feature is Hull and Cap That's why Amarr ship is alwayz better on tanking not dmg dealing. Fitting wise, Amarrian who wanna make perfect use of their Amor or cap would make their weapons least considered in fittings. Look at the Zealot, it's force comes from it's low slot not highs, the laser is not too bad on using but really crappy on fitting. So I have another idea to make Amarr ship stronger: Just give them further more PG/CPU, This is as mighty as make their laser bonus cross-size cos this make them easier to fit and more versatile.
TuRtLe HeAd
Posted - 2006.06.08 15:25:00 -
[443 ]
I love the fact they instantly reload, can dictate their range in 1 second. The damage Definately Doesn't need changing. its an energy based weapon. theres no physical way to make a laser deal kinetic/explosive damage. But It would most certainly be worth possibly ever so slightly increasing the damage or decreasing the cap usage when fitted. but asking for a diffenent damage type is stupid. What your asking for is not Balancing.
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.08 15:35:00 -
[444 ]
There is no need to "make" a laser do kin/exp damage, by principal they already do! And since when can Amarr dicatate range? We hardly ever fit propulsion mods.... And as for instantly switching ammo types... have you seen the falloff on lasers? No wonder we have to switch ammo so much! Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.08 15:47:00 -
[445 ]
Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd I love the fact they instantly reload YOu ever tried to reload an Armageddon? Obviously you havent. There is a bug thats been around for a year. Quote: can dictate their range in 1 second. Targets can also fly out of range in 1 second. Crap fall of. Quote: The damage Definately Doesn't need changing. its an energy based weapon. theres no physical way to make a laser deal kinetic/explosive damage. You cant hear sounds in space, yet in eve you can DONT bring RL science IN EVE. Quote: But It would most certainly be worth possibly ever so slightly increasing the damage or decreasing the cap usage when fitted. Thats what this thread is all about.
Araxmas
Posted - 2006.06.08 15:55:00 -
[446 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd I love the fact they instantly reload YOu ever tried to reload an Armageddon? Obviously you havent. There is a bug thats been around for a year. Quote: And there are ways to deal with it no that I remember off the top of my head but there is a way The damage Definately Doesn't need changing. its an energy based weapon. theres no physical way to make a laser deal kinetic/explosive damage. You cant hear sounds in space, yet in eve you can DONT bring RL science IN EVE. You hear sound beacuse your pod puts it there (check the eve-chronices its around there somewhere) Quote: But It would most certainly be worth possibly ever so slightly increasing the damage or decreasing the cap usage when fitted. Thats what this thread is all about. Last time I checked the cap useage on lasers was a tradeoff for having guns with the highest base damage. p.s I fly ammar ships lots and although I woudnt mind a boost goign back to the time when megapulse geddons were uber from erm 45km or somethign seems a bit much
Tel Bakhara
Posted - 2006.06.08 16:04:00 -
[447 ]
The fact is that u can't reload multiple lasers simultaneously. reloading crystal will easily fail if more than 1 guns are reloading one same crystal. This is a common sence on AI not a bug. so reloading a laser is not as fast as most non-Amarrian pilot think.
Scagga Laebetrovo
Posted - 2006.06.08 16:33:00 -
[448 ]
It's balanced. Minmatar do crap dps but varied damage type. Other races do pwnzor dps but restricted damage type. Caldari have to put up with missile delay and the ability to intercept their missiles. If you give lasers and hybrids varied damage, make minnie ammo , weapon capacity and rate of fire on par with the other races.
Araxmas
Posted - 2006.06.08 16:37:00 -
[449 ]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo It's balanced. Minmatar do crap dps but varied damage type. Other races do pwnzor dps but restricted damage type. Caldari have to put up with missile delay and the ability to intercept their missiles. Sssshhhh go away with yoru logic you will anger the evil Godar Marak and he will troll you with his rooley eyes
Tel Bakhara
Posted - 2006.06.08 16:40:00 -
[450 ]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo It's balanced. Minmatar do crap dps but varied damage type. Other races do pwnzor dps but restricted damage type. Caldari have to put up with missile delay and the ability to intercept their missiles. If you give lasers and hybrids varied damage, make minnie ammo , weapon capacity and rate of fire on par with the other races. No tis not balanced, as I said, drone(G)/missile(C)/speed(M) bonus is ALL-SIZED while gun bonus is only one-size bonus, Amarrians are pure gunners so they sux on ship bonus.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.08 17:21:00 -
[451 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2006 17:23:32 Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd The damage Definately Doesn't need changing. its an energy based weapon. theres no physical way to make a laser deal kinetic/explosive damage. As Godar said, it's a game. And even ignoring that, that argument is just silly from a RL science point of view because lasers are already the most "illogical" weapons in EvE. (a little science ahead, skip if annoyed by that) ----- Guess what? There is no physical way for lasers to do *anything* even resembling EM damage. For which you need electromagnetic fields, for which you need a strong electric current. Lasers do not carry electrons or have an electromagnetic field, they are as neutral as stuff can get. Nevermind that while EM fields can wreck electronics they can (in RL) not really damage anything physical (like armor or structure). Also, in RL lasers can create explosions as small seconardy effects. If you vaporize something you will have a bit of superheated vapor occupying the same volume as it did a second ago in it's old solid form. Volume of something in vapor form >> volume of something in solid form, so it will expand. If there is something in the way (like: armor) it could be teared apart. If lasers would be "realistic" they would do something around 20 thermal, 1 explosive and would be weapons with an optimal of 1 km and a falloff of about 100 km (a laser beam does not suddenly "stop" at 20 km, it would grow progressively weaker over range because it is loosing focus (slowly)). ----- In short: if you want to say "explosive/kinetic/whatever is not realistic" please explain first how this "EM damage" works with lasers or what stops them suddenly at range x. That being said, I would rather have them fix the mechanics which make lasers weak than adding new damagetypes to them.
zapp brainigan
Posted - 2006.06.08 17:39:00 -
[452 ]
Malken for president
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.08 17:41:00 -
[453 ]
Originally by: Al Haquis Originally by: Xendie Edited by: Xendie on 08/06/2006 12:03:18 and a tempest can get to 20x dmg modifier with arties while a apoc with tachs get what? 11-13? You didnt get the mail about the apoc beeing the tanker while the geddon is the dmg ship. But the main bonus of amarrian ships is that they dont eat through ammo like rabit dogs. Trust me this is a huge bonus. With love from Al Haquis. then why does a tier1 BS like the Domi have as good tank as a apoc or even the raven have as good if not better tank then the apoc? supposed to tank my ***. as for not chewing up ammo? if you loose your raven with a few hundred tech2 torps what in isk value do you loose counting th ammo?, a couple of mill? when you loose a apoc fitted with tech2 crystals you loose 16 tech2 crystals wich total ranges from around 3mill-4mill a pop wich makes it around 48mill to 64mill in just ammo losses if you had both gleam and aurora on your ship for all the guns. thats 48 to 64 million isk in just ammo ??????????? almost a spare Battleship ????? half a HAC ????? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.08 17:42:00 -
[454 ]
Originally by: zapp brainigan Malken for president w00t Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Araxmas
Posted - 2006.06.08 17:47:00 -
[455 ]
With regards to t2 crystals how many shots do you get per crystal 1k or so isnt it, so you cant compare it to a few t2 missiles when you compare that price it gets a bit better and maybe t2 crystals require more mins to bulid which would explain the increased cost, and dosent eveyone on these forums keep mentioning that you cant use cost as a balliancg factor?
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.08 17:48:00 -
[456 ]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 08/06/2006 08:41:50 Letifer: I hope you know that megapulse t2 with multi has optimal of 15km and it barely hits targets moving at 150m/s at this optimal (dont remember exact value - im not in game atm to check). If target gets a bit closer then you start to see *miss* *miss* *miss*. And with 15km range getting that *bit* closer is... well - too easy. One MWD/2x AB boost from enemy ship and suddenly megapulses dont hit at all. Also one more q: do you fly amarr ships? Want to be sure... I mainly fly gallente, but I do fly armas with this character from time to time and have amarr bs and large engy 5. On my alt I fly only MP armageddons. "it barely hits targets moving at 150m/s at this optimal" You mean to tell me 94% accuracy at 15km against a bs with 150m/s transversal is "barely hitting." I think not. Now, at ~9.5km w/o a web neut. and MP will have the same ~86% accuracy. If you add in a 90% web, then at 10km, oh man, MPs have nearly 100% accuracy from there down to ~4km. Neuts on the other hand will have ~87% accuracy at 10km, with accuracy rising until it peaks at 4.5km (at which point MP hit % is still nearly identical). Don't try and tell me MPs can't track BS. Let me restate: You want to put mega pulse back to how they were before their range was nerfed BECAUSE their range was too good for the damage and tracking they have AND THEN you want to boost their tracking? No. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.08 17:59:00 -
[457 ]
Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd But It would most certainly be worth possibly ever so slightly increasing the damage or decreasing the cap usage when fitted. Tach II on apoc with lvl 5 BS = 47.5 cap every 12.5 seconds = 3.8 cap/s. 425mm Rail II on Mega = 30 cap every 9.56 seconds = 3.14 cap/s. MPII on apoc with lvl 5 BS = 20 cap every 7.88 seconds = 2.54 cap/s. Neutron II on Mega = 18.2 cap every 7.88 seconds = 2.31 cap/s. Energy turrets are supposed to use more cap, so i feel that cap usage on tachs is fine (assuming tachs get their small damage increase Tux has proposed) and 10% more cap usage on MPs than neuts is fine too. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.06.08 18:06:00 -
[458 ]
You also fail to take into accoutn the apocs larger natural cap and larger natural recharger there btw But yeah, whatever, why is this thread still here ? The issue is in a choice you've got to make: - you either make the apoc a viable damage dealer -> nerf geddon - you do not make the apoc a viable damage dealer -> no changeOld blog
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.08 18:15:00 -
[459 ]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/06/2006 18:24:11 Originally by: Rod Blaine You also fail to take into accoutn the apocs larger natural cap and larger natural recharger there btw But yeah, whatever, why is this thread still here ? The issue is in a choice you've got to make: - you either make the apoc a viable damage dealer -> nerf geddon - you do not make the apoc a viable damage dealer -> no change I agree, this threat shouldn't be here anymore. However, the only real way to increase damage on apoc (apart from increasing damage on energy turrets, which would cause tons of complications) would be to give it a 5% damage or ROF bonus instead of the cap capacity bonus. However, as I pointed out a long time ago in this thread, an apoc with a dmg/rof bonus would basically just be an uber arma. Imagine this apoc (with 5% rof instead of 5% cap capacity): Apocalypse 8x Mega Pulse Laser II 2xSensor Booster II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Warp Prohibitor I 3x Heat Sink II Large Armor Repairer II 3x 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 5962 shield 20100 armor 6000.0 cap1043 DPS w/Conflag. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.08 18:32:00 -
[460 ]
Originally by: Araxmas Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo It's balanced. Minmatar do crap dps but varied damage type. Other races do pwnzor dps but restricted damage type. Caldari have to put up with missile delay and the ability to intercept their missiles. Sssshhhh go away with yoru logic you will anger the evil Godar Marak and he will troll you with his rooley eyes *removes hodded robe* BOO!!!
Deva Blackfire
Posted - 2006.06.08 18:43:00 -
[461 ]
Wonder - if all ppl say that "amarr are ok" then why i dont see em so often in actual combat? All i see is some apoc/geds in fleet combat... after that - nothing. I rarely see zealots/mallers/prophs - saw more curses/pilgrims than those ships combined in last 1-2 months...
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.08 18:56:00 -
[462 ]
Originally by: Rod Blaine The issue is in a choice you've got to make: - you either make the apoc a viable damage dealer -> nerf geddon - you do not make the apoc a viable damage dealer -> no change Drugs are bad mkay?
Nifel
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:22:00 -
[463 ]
Originally by: Xendie Edited by: Xendie on 08/06/2006 12:03:18 and a tempest can get to 20x dmg modifier with arties while a apoc with tachs get what? 11-13? No you can't. You get 18.3 with max skills, 3 gyro2 and 1x 3% damage implant (my fleet setup). "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Nifel
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:26:00 -
[464 ]
Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Nifel EMP also has lower raw damage than both AM and MF. That doesn't count anymore. Projectiles have been boosted several times factoring in those numbers. They could have easily boosted EMP to 48 instead of buffing the dmg mod but they didn't and it doesn't matter. You have me confused. What damage mod has been boosted? The only damage mod I'm aware of that has been boosted is the lower tier artillery which was sorely needed. And we've been boosted several times? The only boosts to our weapons have been high tier ACs and lower tier artillery. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:31:00 -
[465 ]
Edited by: General Apocalypse on 08/06/2006 19:33:09 Dear players and imbecils. Don't post unless u read several pages in this topic . So saying "lasers can't do explosive damage" is unfonded as lasers can do all type of damage. "Lasers are balanced how they are now" . 100% wrong. Lasers where fine but they got nerfed and the other weapons got boosted. So atm using lasers on your ship is like using a carachter named "pls kill me". You don't belive me Fine , then fit an Apocalypse whit lasers and fight whit it agans a Megatron , a Raven and a Tempest. Fight someone that has your same sp. Unless u're fighting a total noob or using all faction and officer items u're going to loose 95% of the time. We're going to whine about lasers and Amarr ships as Sarmaul did for minmatar and other guys did for gallente. So unless u love bing falmed stop being such a pain in the neck.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:49:00 -
[466 ]
All hail General Apocalypse! Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Araxmas
Posted - 2006.06.08 20:33:00 -
[467 ]
Originally by: Rod Blaine But yeah, whatever, why is this thread still here ? comeon why
Mang0o
Posted - 2006.06.08 20:44:00 -
[468 ]
Originally by: Malken with the Mega now able to wtfpwn at close range and long range Minmatar use no cap on their guns and.... yeah need alittle more loving though. and the Domi is the wtfpwn iwin button at close range Caldari still got the wtfpwn recon jammer, Raven wtfpwning at long range and close range Amarr got the geddon that does good dmg with no tank on and the apoc that does more dmg with projectiles then megapulses can we get our explosive crystals soon? YES PLZ!!! 100% trueeee!!!I love you Mang0o, take a guess why -Eris
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.08 21:35:00 -
[469 ]
Originally by: Rod Blaine But yeah, whatever, why is this thread still here ? Probably because the real issues are still there.
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.08 21:50:00 -
[470 ]
Originally by: General Apocalypse Edited by: General Apocalypse on 08/06/2006 19:33:09 Dear players and imbecils. Don't post unless u read several pages in this topic . So saying "lasers can't do explosive damage" is unfonded as lasers can do all type of damage. "Lasers are balanced how they are now" . 100% wrong. Lasers where fine but they got nerfed and the other weapons got boosted. So atm using lasers on your ship is like using a carachter named "pls kill me". You don't belive me Fine , then fit an Apocalypse whit lasers and fight whit it agans a Megatron , a Raven and a Tempest. Fight someone that has your same sp. Unless u're fighting a total noob or using all faction and officer items u're going to loose 95% of the time. We're going to whine about lasers and Amarr ships as Sarmaul did for minmatar and other guys did for gallente. So unless u love bing falmed stop being such a pain in the neck. Bout sums it up... we are almost at the magical point where we break through the dev Ships & Mods filter that gets rid of threads under 20 pages :DNova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Meridius
Posted - 2006.06.08 22:19:00 -
[471 ]
Originally by: Nifel Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Nifel EMP also has lower raw damage than both AM and MF. That doesn't count anymore. Projectiles have been boosted several times factoring in those numbers. They could have easily boosted EMP to 48 instead of buffing the dmg mod but they didn't and it doesn't matter. You have me confused. What damage mod has been boosted? The only damage mod I'm aware of that has been boosted is the lower tier artillery which was sorely needed. And we've been boosted several times? The only boosts to our weapons have been high tier ACs and lower tier artillery. Quote: Projectile Improvements Autocannons have had an increase in Tracking and Damage. Artillery Damage and Optimal Range have been increased. Howitzers now do additional Damage. From: Build 3106 to 3211 Yes quite a long time ago. What, did you seriously think this was the first projectile boost since EMP has done 44dmg (since like forever) - _____
Mollari Cotto
Posted - 2006.06.08 22:26:00 -
[472 ]
I'm sick of people trying to make all of the races the same. Minmatar get the mulit damage types. gallente get drones. caldari missiles..... this game will SUCK the day CCP makes all of the races the same. Its better to know me and not need me than need me and not know me.
Traeon
Posted - 2006.06.08 22:32:00 -
[473 ]
Edited by: Traeon on 08/06/2006 22:33:00 Giving lasers explosive damage seems a bit much. One should go with small improvements and see what they do. Then perhaps add some explosive damage, but only to T2 crystals. These changes would be a nice start: - Crystals changed into two lines: one with heavy EM damage, one with heavy thermal damage, and the damage ratios are changed accordingly. Using small crystals in this example: Multifrequency: 7 EM + 5 THERM --> 8 THERM +4 EM Gamma: 7 EM + 4 THERM --> 8 EM + 3 THERM Xray: 6 EM + 4 THERM --> 7 THERM + 3 EM Ultraviolet: 6 EM + 3 THERM --> 7 EM + 2 THERM Standard: 5 EM + 3 THERM --> 6 THERM + 2 EM Infrared: 5 EM + 2 THERM --> 6 EM + 1 THERM Microwave: 4 EM + 2 THERM --> 5 THERM + 1 EM Radio: 5 EM unchanged - A "Load all with:" option when right clicking on turrets. - Fix the reloading glitches with crystals. Make it a smooth and quick operation rather than a click (wait to gun to deactivate), right-click, load a different crystal, wait, when it is loaded, go on to the next. If one doesn't follow these steps the guns will try to load the same crystal "stealing" it from the previous gun that was attempting to load it. Unless this has already been fixed, i haven't flown with lasers in a while. Not laser related, but give amarrian pilots a sixth frigate, and one with 3 med slots, thanks. I think amarr is a bit underplayed because the Punisher, allthough good in some situations, is lacking in PvP. Similar situation with the Maller. Oh and execute whoever came up with the Inquisitor. It's the worst ship concept in Eve, seriously. It's like giving caldari a drone based frigate.
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.08 22:52:00 -
[474 ]
Originally by: Mollari Cotto I'm sick of people trying to make all of the races the same. Minmatar get the mulit damage types. gallente get drones. caldari missiles..... this game will SUCK the day CCP makes all of the races the same. Bwahahaha... the last thing we want is to be the same... now dont post again untill youve read the better part of these 17 pages Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.08 22:54:00 -
[475 ]
Edited by: Godar Marak on 08/06/2006 22:54:47 Originally by: Mollari Cotto I'm sick of people trying to make all of the races the same. Minmatar get the mulit damage types. gallente get drones. caldari missiles..... this game will SUCK the day CCP makes all of the races the same. ....and we are sick of tardbot's eneting threads without knowing what they are about. reading not only for students /|\ /\
Araxmas
Posted - 2006.06.08 23:10:00 -
[476 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Edited by: Godar Marak on 08/06/2006 22:54:47 Originally by: Mollari Cotto I'm sick of people trying to make all of the races the same. Minmatar get the mulit damage types. gallente get drones. caldari missiles..... this game will SUCK the day CCP makes all of the races the same. ....and we are sick of tardbot's eneting threads without knowing what they are about. reading not only for students /|\ /\ Trolling gets you nowhere why dont you just reply constructivly
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.09 02:30:00 -
[477 ]
Edited by: Rockbox on 09/06/2006 02:31:12 Bump/Whipmiester Discuss the indadiquicys of amarrian ships and weapons and my faulty spelling /me cr@cks whip Any more suggestions for the balancing issues?Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Principe
Posted - 2006.06.09 03:25:00 -
[478 ]
classical Amarrian design philosophy: if it's strong, sturdy and packs a punch, it's ready for action. I think I missed the fine print on the bottom of the pageAll claims of uber tank and damage are only against sanchas NPC's and beltrats in empire space, use in pvp against other races ships is discouraged
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.09 06:30:00 -
[479 ]
Originally by: Araxmas Originally by: Godar Marak Edited by: Godar Marak on 08/06/2006 22:54:47 Originally by: Mollari Cotto I'm sick of people trying to make all of the races the same. Minmatar get the mulit damage types. gallente get drones. caldari missiles..... this game will SUCK the day CCP makes all of the races the same. ....and we are sick of tardbot's eneting threads without knowing what they are about. reading not only for students /|\ /\ Trolling gets you nowhere why dont you just reply constructivly Its not trolling to tell people that post in a 17 page thread that they are morons for not reading the entire thread before posting.
Mihoshi Tsunami
Posted - 2006.06.09 09:50:00 -
[480 ]
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned. How about this idea about lasers PG and making it undesirable for the other race to use. Instead that each Amarr ship get a 10% reduction in Medium Energy Weapon capacitor use change it to xx% PG reduction in energy turrets use and in default lower energy turrets cap use built in per energy turret sort off hidden bonus. Perhaps the PG needs to be increased too make this change undesirable for the other races. Or give all amarr ships a 3rd bonus like battlecruiser "99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules." xx% reduction in Power grid use in Energy turrets.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.09 10:18:00 -
[481 ]
I think it would be better simply to lower the grid on the problematic lasers. It's not like every single laser has those oversized PG requirements. And the high energy costs on a non-amarr ship are I think quite suffecient to discourage people to use lasers there.
Nifel
Posted - 2006.06.09 10:38:00 -
[482 ]
Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Nifel Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Nifel EMP also has lower raw damage than both AM and MF. That doesn't count anymore. Projectiles have been boosted several times factoring in those numbers. They could have easily boosted EMP to 48 instead of buffing the dmg mod but they didn't and it doesn't matter. You have me confused. What damage mod has been boosted? The only damage mod I'm aware of that has been boosted is the lower tier artillery which was sorely needed. And we've been boosted several times? The only boosts to our weapons have been high tier ACs and lower tier artillery. Quote: Projectile Improvements Autocannons have had an increase in Tracking and Damage. Artillery Damage and Optimal Range have been increased. Howitzers now do additional Damage. From: Build 3106 to 3211 Yes quite a long time ago. What, did you seriously think this was the first projectile boost since EMP has done 44dmg (since like forever) Right... that boost. When we did pathetic damage compared to just less DPS. We still do less DPS btw... a lot less. And that's up 2 boosts if you count artillery and 1 boost if you count ACs. So again... what several times? That was the gist of your argument which is a bit silly really. Things get boosted as often as needed and projectiles still need a few small boosts. The only thing in here that's even worth considering is the lowering of em resistance on armor and increasing it on shields. The rest is just whine. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.09 11:26:00 -
[483 ]
ppl need to read abit i think. this thread is not about nerfing others or saying that they didnt deserve the boost they have got now. the thread is about amarr ships being left behind with no boosts or "balancing" to make it a equal playing field. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Mihoshi Tsunami
Posted - 2006.06.09 11:41:00 -
[484 ]
I meant more for filling a full rack off medium, Heavy's & Mega and able to put a decent plate as other races are able to. I meant more for filling a full rack off medium, Heavy's & Mega and able to put a decent plate to tank as other races are able to. DonÆt want to start a flame war just a suggestion.
Dumus
Posted - 2006.06.09 11:59:00 -
[485 ]
I choose to fly Amarr. I have only Amarr ship skills trained *cough* apart from barges *cough* I do not want to fly any other race ships or fit other race Weaponry, for role playing reasons and because I think it against the spirit of the game, if you like. I dont mind others not choosing the route I have taken. Its a very open game after all. But having said that it does seem that we Amarr are getting a little left behind ATM. I love my Sacriledge, but why is the best setup 3 med nos and 3 launchers? when it gets a bonus to lazors. It makes no sense. Its similar with many Amarr ships. I dont really think I need to draw your attention to the serious shortfalls of the Amaar AF's (1 mid slot for a pvp ship meh). Please CCP take a look at the Amarr and bring them back to the superior race we all know they should be. Allow us to reclaim all the Minnie scum and squash the Gallente perverts. BOOST AMARR [center]Rookie pirate?click the sig
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.09 13:36:00 -
[486 ]
Edited by: BirdBleed on 09/06/2006 13:36:28 raw dps means nothing in this argument, its true amarr do alot of raw DPS, but when resistances factor in (ie. the normal t2 EAMN tanks) our dps falls way short of the other races. It wouldnt be a problem if half the ships in this game shield tanked .... but they dont. Very few minmatar ships shield tank, and if they do they will have decent em and therm resists This leaves caldari ... Yes amarr does well here, but caldari dont allways shield tank their ships. eg. ravens often armor tank leaving ewar in their mids So either shield tanking needs to be more popular, or lazers need to become better and breaking armor tanks.
Nifel
Posted - 2006.06.09 13:40:00 -
[487 ]
Originally by: BirdBleed Edited by: BirdBleed on 09/06/2006 13:36:28 raw dps means nothing in this argument, its true amarr do alot of raw DPS, but when resistances factor in (ie. the normal t2 EAMN tanks) our dps falls way short of the other races. Right... so do you fix the problem, EAMN tanks giving an unintended boost against lasers, or do you boost lasers so they become the wtfpwn again against other targets? "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.06.09 14:08:00 -
[488 ]
Originally by: Nifel Originally by: BirdBleed Edited by: BirdBleed on 09/06/2006 13:36:28 raw dps means nothing in this argument, its true amarr do alot of raw DPS, but when resistances factor in (ie. the normal t2 EAMN tanks) our dps falls way short of the other races. Right... so do you fix the problem, EAMN tanks giving an unintended boost against lasers, or do you boost lasers so they become the wtfpwn again against other targets? Oh the humanity, just think what would happend if EANM's were nerfed/removed. The amount of RABBLE would be insane :) But as such I see no other way to solve that particular problem. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.09 14:49:00 -
[489 ]
The solution is easy. Switch the EM and Thermal values on frequency crystals and lasers will mainly do thermal damage (which is alot more logical than em btw). Thermal damage is better against most armors and will not rip apart shields as fast as EM does. A good tradeoff imo.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
hylleX
Posted - 2006.06.09 15:08:00 -
[490 ]
Here is why amarr suxs 1. Ammo does to much EM damage. 2. Lasers use to much cap to do anything else than shooting, and often u cant even have the cap sustainable to keep ur guns going. (i got all skills at 5) Meanwhile we have TWO races who dont use ANY cap to fire and another who got their use reduced which i think is fine but we need some love too. 3. The ships are so predictable and lacks flexibility (=mid slots > low slots) Since EW is teh **** nowadays. 4. The easiest ships to jam, we have the lowest sensor strengts, geddon has pretty much the same strength as other races hacs give or take a point. And Compared to other BS its alot lower. 5. Most vulnerable to tracking disruptors. 6. Our frigs, intys, af¦s cant be fitted really, and the fact that we do mainly EM damage makes them pretty worthless compared to other frigs since they have 60-70% EM resist and who tanks a frig? 7. Our cruisers suffer from i think alot of the things that the frigs doo, fitting problems and also the damage types is a problem. 8. Khanid (nuff said?) My conclusion which i realised a long time ago (which lead me to train caldari cuz, EW+missiles is teh ****) was that the stacking penalty implemented in RMR would hit Amarr hard. And now as the time has passed it has become more obvious we cant even gank properly anymore. The apoc can tank abit but so can all other BS¦s cuz injectors > cap bonus, the difference between apoc and others are it does less damage than a thorax. Ahh now i feel better ---------------------------------------------------------
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.09 20:50:00 -
[491 ]
Originally by: hylleX Here is why amarr suxs 1. Ammo does to much EM damage. 2. Lasers use to much cap to do anything else than shooting, and often u cant even have the cap sustainable to keep ur guns going. (i got all skills at 5) Meanwhile we have TWO races who dont use ANY cap to fire and another who got their use reduced which i think is fine but we need some love too. 3. The ships are so predictable and lacks flexibility (=mid slots > low slots) Since EW is teh **** nowadays. 4. The easiest ships to jam, we have the lowest sensor strengts, geddon has pretty much the same strength as other races hacs give or take a point. And Compared to other BS its alot lower. 5. Most vulnerable to tracking disruptors. 6. Our frigs, intys, af¦s cant be fitted really, and the fact that we do mainly EM damage makes them pretty worthless compared to other frigs since they have 60-70% EM resist and who tanks a frig? 7. Our cruisers suffer from i think alot of the things that the frigs doo, fitting problems and also the damage types is a problem. 8. Khanid (nuff said?) My conclusion which i realised a long time ago (which lead me to train caldari cuz, EW+missiles is teh ****) was that the stacking penalty implemented in RMR would hit Amarr hard. And now as the time has passed it has become more obvious we cant even gank properly anymore. The apoc can tank abit but so can all other BS¦s cuz injectors > cap bonus, the difference between apoc and others are it does less damage than a thorax. Ahh now i feel better QFTNova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Asuzke Mitsugi
Posted - 2006.06.09 20:57:00 -
[492 ]
Originally by: Rockbox Originally by: hylleX A lot of rabble rabble bullcrap QFT Sometimes I think people don't know how to play EVE when they think this way. Boohoo I am not good in another races area... boohoo my Paladin God Shield doesn't last forever while I put the highest DPS guns into action. Boohoo I don't know how to use EM/Therm to my advantage so I am gonna go cry on the forums because the worst class of guns by far just got a boost and now I am not so uber. Boooooohooooohooooohooooohooo.... stuff it and get a clue.
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.09 21:45:00 -
[493 ]
Originally by: Asuzke Mitsugi Boohoo I don't know how to use EM/Therm to my advantage ...........and how do you do that exactly?
Hey You
Posted - 2006.06.09 22:01:00 -
[494 ]
Originally by: Asuzke Mitsugi Originally by: Rockbox Originally by: hylleX A lot of rabble rabble bullcrap QFT Sometimes I think people don't know how to play EVE when they think this way. Boohoo I am not good in another races area... boohoo my Paladin God Shield doesn't last forever while I put the highest DPS guns into action. Boohoo I don't know how to use EM/Therm to my advantage so I am gonna go cry on the forums because the worst class of guns by far just got a boost and now I am not so uber. Boooooohooooohooooohooooohooo.... stuff it and get a clue. Wow. You, um, need a clue. Not only does the Raven probably tank better then the Apoc, I'm willing to bet it does more damage. Our frigs/cruisers are generally all but useless for PVP. The Geddon, I love, has an awful time with cap, even though I have a med booster with 800s in it. I have most of the cap skills/weapon cap related skills at IV or V. We're most vulnerable to tracking disruptors/ECM(IIRC). You cannot deny we get the worst damage type as our primary. And, OMG, we get recon ships that are good for soloing, yay! I don't think the BSes need a huge, or even medium boost. Just a slight nudge. The cruisers/frigs though, :( ------------------------------
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.09 22:04:00 -
[495 ]
Originally by: hylleX 4. The easiest ships to jam, we have the lowest sensor strengts, geddon has pretty much the same strength as other races hacs give or take a point. And Compared to other BS its alot lower. Celestis has more sensor strength than the armageddon. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Shugo Kazuma
Posted - 2006.06.09 22:13:00 -
[496 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Asuzke Mitsugi Boohoo I don't know how to use EM/Therm to my advantage ...........and how do you do that exactly? Beats me, but I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was shooting up those untanked cans to prevent your enemies from getting the contents. But that strikes me as a **** poor advantage to using a laser Anyway, I think the best ideas for balancing that I've heard is to increase the tank bonuses by 2.5% per level (from 5% to 7.5%) to make amarr tanks actually stand out a bit better and reduce the fitting contraints on some of the guns too. While I wouldn't mind seeing the cap useage looked at too, but too many changes all at once for a single class of items or race tends to do more damage than it fixes from what I've seen in other games.
Kaylana Syi
Posted - 2006.06.09 22:15:00 -
[497 ]
Originally by: Hey You Wow. You, um, need a clue. Not only does the Raven probably tank better then the Apoc, I'm willing to bet it does more damage. Our frigs/cruisers are generally all but useless for PVP. The Geddon, I love, has an awful time with cap, even though I have a med booster with 800s in it. I have most of the cap skills/weapon cap related skills at IV or V. We're most vulnerable to tracking disruptors/ECM(IIRC). You cannot deny we get the worst damage type as our primary. And, OMG, we get recon ships that are good for soloing, yay! I don't think the BSes need a huge, or even medium boost. Just a slight nudge. The cruisers/frigs though, :( 1) EM is arguably the best damage type for primary... kthxe 2) Tracking Distruptors have to be useful... get over it. 3) You the tracking disruptor bonuses of the game. 4) You get the best natural range for everything but sniping. 5) Shield tanks aren't better when you face Laser users with armor tanks. 6) The geddon doesn't have to have uber repairing to be a good armor tank. 7) Amarr have arguably the best 2 Drone ships that aren't Gallente in the game. 8) Curse 9) Pilgrim 10) Zealot 11) Best Sansha/Blood hunters in the game to keep your PvP funded at every SP level of the game! 12) No ammo... omgh@x 23456) 2 of the coolest faction ships in the game...... Sorry I tend to see the good out of the amarr ships. Anyone can pick out what their race isnt good at and dismiss the fact that the other races are horrible at something too. I guess Gallente have it bad too because the Dominix and Vexor are not very well suited for 180+k combat with rails too huh? Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Kaylana Syi
Posted - 2006.06.09 22:18:00 -
[498 ]
Originally by: Forsch Originally by: hylleX 4. The easiest ships to jam, we have the lowest sensor strengts, geddon has pretty much the same strength as other races hacs give or take a point. And Compared to other BS its alot lower. Celestis has more sensor strength than the armageddon. Armageddon has 7 turret slots, 1 utility slot, 8 lows and 125m/3 drone bay for only 63mil market value.... Non ECM Ewar ships need high sensor strength so they aren't jammed by ECM and popped by the very ships they are supposed to be dampning eh? Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Asuzke Mitsugi
Posted - 2006.06.09 22:21:00 -
[499 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Asuzke Mitsugi Boohoo I don't know how to use EM/Therm to my advantage ...........and how do you do that exactly? Read quote below... Originally by: Asuzke Mitsugi get a clue.
Commander Thrawn
Posted - 2006.06.09 22:32:00 -
[500 ]
Originally by: hylleX Here is why amarr suxs 1. Ammo does to much EM damage. 2. Lasers use to much cap to do anything else than shooting, and often u cant even have the cap sustainable to keep ur guns going. (i got all skills at 5) Meanwhile we have TWO races who dont use ANY cap to fire and another who got their use reduced which i think is fine but we need some love too. 3. The ships are so predictable and lacks flexibility (=mid slots > low slots) Since EW is teh **** nowadays. 4. The easiest ships to jam, we have the lowest sensor strengts, geddon has pretty much the same strength as other races hacs give or take a point. And Compared to other BS its alot lower. 5. Most vulnerable to tracking disruptors. 6. Our frigs, intys, af¦s cant be fitted really, and the fact that we do mainly EM damage makes them pretty worthless compared to other frigs since they have 60-70% EM resist and who tanks a frig? 7. Our cruisers suffer from i think alot of the things that the frigs doo, fitting problems and also the damage types is a problem. 8. Khanid (nuff said?) My conclusion which i realised a long time ago (which lead me to train caldari cuz, EW+missiles is teh ****) was that the stacking penalty implemented in RMR would hit Amarr hard. And now as the time has passed it has become more obvious we cant even gank properly anymore. The apoc can tank abit but so can all other BS¦s cuz injectors > cap bonus, the difference between apoc and others are it does less damage than a thorax. Ahh now i feel better Amen! either a explosive crystal, or if not swap thermal to pirmary and em to secondairy dmg and up the 10% cap bonus for all ships to 15% or something the will make the guns chew less cap heavy pulse and med pulse(small gun) need too be looked at
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.09 22:34:00 -
[501 ]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Armageddon has 7 turret slots, 1 utility slot, 8 lows and 125m/3 drone bay for only 63mil market value.... Non ECM Ewar ships need high sensor strength so they aren't jammed by ECM and popped by the very ships they are supposed to be dampning eh? Still, a cruiser shouldn't have more sensor strength than a battleship. The arbitrator as the amarr ew ship also has a sensor strength of only 12. So no, that's not a good reason.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Kenan Waroria
Posted - 2006.06.09 22:54:00 -
[502 ]
Edited by: Kenan Waroria on 09/06/2006 22:55:18 Originally by: Kaylana Syi 1) EM is arguably the best damage type for primary... kthxe I would say Explosive but it¦s just the opposite of EM. Somehow all damages is good it¦s just how you use them. Quote: 4) You get the best natural range for everything but sniping. What you mean is that pulses have better optimal than Blasters and AC. What happens to tracking when you go inside the optimal? that¦s right it get worse, so if I have 15km optimal and somebody is orbiting me @ 5km do I have good tracking? It¦s all about situations Quote: 7) Amarr have arguably the best 2 Drone ships that aren't Gallente in the game. Somebody has to come in second place, does that make them good? But I agree that Curse and Pilgrim is a pair of nice ships but not comparable to Dominix and Ishtar, besides EM drones has worst DPS Quote: 10) Zealot Ishtar, Deimos, Vagabond and Cerberus. Did I forget any the most popular HACs? Quote: 11) Best Sansha/Blood hunters in the game to keep your PvP funded at every SP level of the game! I guess you haven¦t fought Guristas or Serpentis with an Ishtar or an Dominix. Besides Dominix can handle Sansha/Blood without to much problems. Quote: 12) No ammo... omgh@x Actually T2 crystals get worn down and breaks same with faction crystals. Quote: 23456) 2 of the coolest faction ships in the game...... I guess you mean Bhaalgorn and Nightmare. Compare them with Macharel, Rattlesnake or Vindicator and they aren¦t that cool or usefull. Quote: Sorry I tend to see the good out of the amarr ships. Anyone can pick out what their race isnt good at and dismiss the fact that the other races are horrible at something too. I guess Gallente have it bad too because the Dominix and Vexor are not very well suited for 180+k combat with rails too huh? All races have their pros and cons. ATM it¦s kind of balanced, I just hope that CCP changes their mind about the fact that two types of weapons (three if you count drones) doesn¦t use cap at all. Doesn¦t Projectiles use energy to change direction of their guns (tracking) and what about launch mechanism on missile launchers? Even if you just use a little cap it would be more balanced than some doesn¦t use at all. Initially missiles took huge place in your cargo so that somewhat limited the missile ship, now you can pack almost as much as you want. Fight time vs cap. Amarr is the winner in fights that last longer than your enemy has cargo space for ammo that¦s it¦s biggest advantage but as EVE is now it¦s only useable against NPCs (and some odd 1on1). -= Think negative and you¦ll get positive surprices =-
Shamis Orzoz
Posted - 2006.06.09 23:02:00 -
[503 ]
Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 09/06/2006 23:05:34 Amarr suck. I feel bad for anybody who has exclusively trained amarr. At the end of the day Amarr are just too limited in what they can do. Very few good drone ships, very few good EW ships, and very few good missle ships. All the other races dabble in different weapons, but amarr get stuck with guns. If Amarr were capable of varying their dmg types it would help immensely, but all the other races are still much more versatile. And to gallente pilots who complain about their limited dmg types: It is much worse to only be able to do the 2 damage types which have extremely high base resists on armor, than it is to do 2 dmg types which are only mildly resisted on both armor and shield. Shamis
Zeldra Han
Posted - 2006.06.09 23:03:00 -
[504 ]
I think the main problem with EM damage is that more ppl are fitting 2x EANM + damage control tanks, reason this is been used more then ever now is because of the new armor compensation skills, so maybe passive hardeners need to get nerfed or active hardeners need a boost. Make EANM II's have a default resist bonus of 15% to all or make active hardeners have a default resist bonus of 60%
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.10 00:17:00 -
[505 ]
aurora L cost more than the guns on my ship. If you go into a long range fleet battle and you get called primary, all that ammo goes poof, and you would of used it maybe a couple of times. So in fleet fights its not practical to use t2 crystals, however with t2 projectile/hybrid ammo, you can buy 5 mil worth that will last you a while and if you die early in the fight its not such a big loss. T2 crystals is like a nerf for amarrians wallets. And if u know nothing about amarr, just imagine having to purchase 10.5k of hybrid/projectile t2 ammo just to be able to use it in all of your guns, its not very practical flying around with that much ammo in your hold, so how does it make it any more useful for amarr ?
Kaylana Syi
Posted - 2006.06.10 01:01:00 -
[506 ]
Originally by: Kenan Waroria whole lot of rebuttle 1) t2 ammo in general is stupid for every gun... and not everyone uses it in pvp even on t2 guns. 2) Arbitrator is also a good, cheap drone ship and quite effective at making hybrids and projectiles futile. 3) Have you flown a Bhalg or a Nightmare? Can you honestly say a Rattlesnake can out tank a Nightmare without resorting to officer loot? I will take an armor tank, pulse, siege setup on a nightmare any day of the week. Machariel is a beautiful ship but it does nothing a tempest can do unless you have a snake set and officer mods. Nightmare is frightening with just basic tech II. I have flown them all. Officer loot do make Rattlers and Machs nice but Chelm on a nightmare or Bhalg are no slouch either... and a vindicator makes me laugh tbh... and yes... I have an account that is a Gallente ***** so I am very intamate with Gallente tech. 4) I have certainly used Domis to fight Guristas. As well as megas. But that is neither here nor there... gurista loot is mostly junk compared to sansha loot which recycles to provide more than the damn bounties. Domis are also good vs sansha but a geddon is better... period. 5) I have 2 amarr specialization accounts... 1 for fleets with caldari BS as well for nightmares and 1 that is nearing having every t2 ship up to command ships... I know these ship intamately as well as every other race in the game... amarr is no worse off than any race... you just think the grass is greener. 6) Amarr Drones... why even bring that up? You can use any race of drone and get 50% hp and damage from arbi platforms. If you want explosive damage you can use explosive drones on any amarr ship with a drone bay. It doesn't need to be in t2 ammo there are far better things for t2 ammo to do than just have more damage. If they get explosive ammo then I want t2 proj ammo to cover ALL FOUR damage types in one round. You game for that? 7) ships getting under your optimal... oh noes you met a pilot that knows more than f1,f2,f3.... geez the only ship that should be a problem on is the maller if they have a tracking disruptor or an arguror. Amarr BSs have drone space that are very able to defend at close range. Nothing is stopping you from having t2 lights/meds on an apoc and ECM heavies on an armageddon. Don't forget about the 2 sieges on an apoc... Anyways... like a lot of folks said its about situation. The balance problems aren't mathmatics except in extreme cases that happen on every side of the field. The biggest problem is player problem with Flavor of the year fighting... fleet battles that are dictated by people who you don't dare talk back to out of fear of being booted out the alliance etc etc. Even small pvp corps could see problems if they are too small to have a fully fleshed out fleet. However, that isn't a DEV problem.... Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.10 05:58:00 -
[507 ]
Reply to Kaylana Syi 1)Ammo! ----But, people do use T2 ammo, and Amarr have a much greater risk using it, the costs are too high. . 2) Cruisers! Yes, but other factions have good cruisers too, and caldari use missiles, Amarr have fewer useful cruisers. 3) Insanely expensive ships! --- Wow, for someone that brushed off the T2 ammo problem you sure did move to the high isk ships quickly. I don't think balance should be based on rare, 1b isk+, usually PVE ships. But, I have been wrong before. 4) --- Yes Amarr are best at Sansha, Sansha loot maybe better than Guristas. However, it is not about loot, it is about options. While all other factions may not be the best against every NPC (Esp Sansha and Blood Raiders), everyone other than Amarr can hunt pretty much any NPC. Compare the EM resists on Angels and Guristas to the Kinetic on the Sansha and Blood Raiders. Also remeber thermal is almost always the second best damage type against NPCs, other factions have much better thermal ratios compared to their primary damage type than Amarr. 5) Skills and SP --- Part of the issue maybe your experience with the game and your sp. You probably don't run into equal players very often, you do high end hunting and pvp. Also high value equipment and the very good skills can help hide the balance issues. High fitting skills mean that fitting tech1 ships is easier for you than most, high gunnery skills mean that you may not notice the problems at lower sp. Your skill as a player combined with your sp makea you good in virtually any situation. Oh, and being able to fly 2 factions may help you avoid Amarr weaknesses. A ton of players have focused only on Amarr and they are a little behind at the moment. 6) Drones! --- Again with that t1 cruiser, 1 good ship not > many good ships. Yes Amarr can use drones, but have trouble fitting several types of drones both in terms of damage and in terms of size. Not so good compared to Gallente. And not good enough to make up for EM resists. Also there are a ton of people suggesting stuff other than explosive crystals... (which could possibly be balanced by damage and range) 7) Range, and drones again! ------ Ok, I have no problem with a blasterthron owning at close range, and an AC Minnie setups being though too. But, med-range fights aren't common, the lack of mid-slots on Amarr ships really limits their options. A few T2 drones are not going to shift the balance enough at point blank range, or at most other ranges.... Those two missile hard points on the Apoc do not have bonuses, and given the rare nature of missile hard points most Amarr pilots have crap missile skills. Final Statement! ----I agree it isn't about pure mathmatics, but my experiences are showing me that the Amarr are having problems, not huge problems, but still enough that they should be addressed. I don't have extreme gear or sp. I do not fly the flavor of year/month/patch ships, I don't switch to which module is too powerful atm. Also, FLEET BATTLES ARE NOT THE ONLY PART OF THE GAME!!! (Sorry but every ******* Amarr thread keeps going back to fleet battles) Balance problems in different areas are DEV problems, why should Amarr get left behind just because corps, alliances, and players have other options, is that fair to the players that focused on Amarr? Right now the Amarr tanks/damage have not kept up with the changes in the game (keep in mind cap-less damage something the Amarr can't do). So either boost tanks on Amarr so they can actually out last enemies again, or boost damage to make up for reduced tanking power. Changes to the EM/Thermal ratio is a simple solution that could work, but you still need to look at AFs, frigates, and cruisers and their fittings, and possibly laser cap use. Why do people resist a slight Amarr boost with such energy? I don't recall people saying blasters are fine, projectiles are fine, when those threads came up.
Othon Von'Salsa
Posted - 2006.06.10 08:15:00 -
[508 ]
There is one solution for amarr : Remove all bonus of capa on all ship and reduce all gun capa need by 25% and add one or/and two true bonus. And change lence, thermal damage first and best than em damage.
Lucian Alucard
Posted - 2006.06.10 08:28:00 -
[509 ]
-Apoc needs 1500 more grid and 80 more cpu amd 250 more cap,change -10% to Large Energy Turret Cap use to -15% -Armageddon should get a 2k grid increase and 75 more cpu -Drop the cap activation cost on T2 Tachs by .625 -the fall off on Mega Pulse Laser II should drop by a factor of 800 meters and the damage uped by .285 Apocs should be able to easily fit a full kit of ANY sized tachs with just ONE RCU 2,the damage on the apoc with Tachs is nerfed by being limited to 2 damage mods usually this goes in favor of longer range,this negated the burst damage boost seeing as that only comes in to true fruition once you have a max limit of damage mods,which the apoc can't fit since even it need s 2 rcu 2s to kit a full rack of T2 Tachs. The Geddon deserves the boost in grid as well since its kinda the swiss army knife of the fleet,it has a decent drone bay,7 turret points, see this ship could easily be fixed by increasing the cap bonus by 2.5%,so it would read 12.5% per level so at BS level 5 you have -62.5% off cap. So guess what you now can tank and gank with a megathron instead of trying to out range him and slow him down with 5 webby drones,that space can now go to other types of drones for defence against frigs. The Apoc is supposed to be the long range master of the two,limiting it in practicality to 2 damage mods is lame as can be only other choice i see you having is giving it a 8th low slot. Short range it sucks as it should but long range it should pwn,not insta pop bs like the temp should but be the guy who tho might not be the biggest threat to the enemies bs but is the biggest to everyone smaller then him. The geddon is supposed to be the damage king and thats great let it remain that way but she does need more defence but not at the expense of making it even more godly with tachs, hence the cap bonus differance between the two,the Apoc gets more cap and uses less then the Geddon but the geddon gets blistering dps as a counter point to its inefficentcy. The Geddon should have the capability to adapt to most situations on the battlefeild and to more aptly use its wepon of choice,the Mega pulse II, as is I have to try and beat a blasterthron at his own game,which is a gamble and a half for even the highest sp'd pilot,the ONLY way I can kill a domi is to drop webby drones,slow him down and mwd out of his effective optimal range and practically snipe him with mega pulse IIs and even then all he has to do is warp out since I am out of Warp Disruption range. This also applies to Temps and Typhoons. And fighting a Raven is practically suicide if the guy is more then a year old. Also Radio Crystals now need to get SOME thermal hp back. I understand you want pvp to last longer but making one race have an almost impossibly high learning curve is not the way to do it.
Benefactor
Posted - 2006.06.10 09:00:00 -
[510 ]
I'd argue for thermal being the primary damage source from energy weapons. After all, what is the universal waste product of virtually any energy transmission? EM should be a "bonus," or even better, what if EM had a reason to exist as a damage type? Right now, it just sucks.
DanMck
Posted - 2006.06.10 09:54:00 -
[511 ]
Originally by: Lucian Alucard -Apoc needs 1500 more grid and 80 more cpu amd 250 more cap,change -10% to Large Energy Turret Cap use to -15% -Armageddon should get a 2k grid increase and 75 more cpu -Drop the cap activation cost on T2 Tachs by .625 -the fall off on Mega Pulse Laser II should drop by a factor of 800 meters and the damage uped by .285 Apocs should be able to easily fit a full kit of ANY sized tachs with just ONE RCU 2,the damage on the apoc with Tachs is nerfed by being limited to 2 damage mods usually this goes in favor of longer range,this negated the burst damage boost seeing as that only comes in to true fruition once you have a max limit of damage mods,which the apoc can't fit since even it need s 2 rcu 2s to kit a full rack of T2 Tachs. The Geddon deserves the boost in grid as well since its kinda the swiss army knife of the fleet,it has a decent drone bay,7 turret points, see this ship could easily be fixed by increasing the cap bonus by 2.5%,so it would read 12.5% per level so at BS level 5 you have -62.5% off cap. So guess what you now can tank and gank with a megathron instead of trying to out range him and slow him down with 5 webby drones,that space can now go to other types of drones for defence against frigs. The Apoc is supposed to be the long range master of the two,limiting it in practicality to 2 damage mods is lame as can be only other choice i see you having is giving it a 8th low slot. Short range it sucks as it should but long range it should pwn,not insta pop bs like the temp should but be the guy who tho might not be the biggest threat to the enemies bs but is the biggest to everyone smaller then him. The geddon is supposed to be the damage king and thats great let it remain that way but she does need more defence but not at the expense of making it even more godly with tachs, hence the cap bonus differance between the two,the Apoc gets more cap and uses less then the Geddon but the geddon gets blistering dps as a counter point to its inefficentcy. The Geddon should have the capability to adapt to most situations on the battlefeild and to more aptly use its wepon of choice,the Mega pulse II, as is I have to try and beat a blasterthron at his own game,which is a gamble and a half for even the highest sp'd pilot,the ONLY way I can kill a domi is to drop webby drones,slow him down and mwd out of his effective optimal range and practically snipe him with mega pulse IIs and even then all he has to do is warp out since I am out of Warp Disruption range. This also applies to Temps and Typhoons. And fighting a Raven is practically suicide if the guy is more then a year old. Also Radio Crystals now need to get SOME thermal hp back. I understand you want pvp to last longer but making one race have an almost impossibly high learning curve is not the way to do it. couldn't have put it better myself
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.06.10 10:30:00 -
[512 ]
Edited by: General Apocalypse on 10/06/2006 10:31:41 Message for those dudes & chick (whatever) from The Nest (of crows). Shut up unless you love being flamed . And try to expirience the pain of building yourself an Amarr char from zero. Try to earn isk and resist the countless pvpers. Amarr cruisers can't kill a thorax , a rupture or a caracal unless they deal whit a complete noob. About rating : How many Prophecyes do u see in 0.0 rating solo ? None . How many do u see in pvp ? Very very very few . How many Feroxes do u see 0.0 rating and pvping ? A lot of them. Same goes for Brutix and Cyclone . How many Apocalypse have u seen kiling a Raven , a Tempest or a Megatron ? Extremly few. So u can clearly see that Amarr needs a MAJOR boost ASAP so they won't be loling stuff of EVE. Asuming that Amarr is a "good" race (and it's not)how woud u feel if all the races got boosted and only u got nerfed ?
Aizhan Ushrakhan
Posted - 2006.06.10 12:29:00 -
[513 ]
Edited by: Aizhan Ushrakhan on 10/06/2006 12:31:39 Yes! Amarr ships need loving..esp in pvp. Lets take a look: T1 Frigates : suck (viable ones are always those damn minnies (midslots are crap) T2 AF: Sadder than sad..one shoots like a pea shooter, the other has only one leg. T2 Inties: Sucks (wtfpwn by crows every single time or damn gallenteans, generally every other race). Tank ? what tank? before u can even get into range ur dead. T1 Cruisers: Sad except for the Maller which 'sucks'. T2 HACs: One is a one trick pony (zero versatility) and the other is meant to be a tank and not much else. Also Amarr drones bays are so small and cant do crap compared to gallente. Amarr cant do jacksquat to Minnie ships due to incredibly high em resists. SO.. Amarr ships r slow, crystals do crap dmg against Minnie ships and every other race who know Amarr dmg type, ships r beautiful but strangely gimped. Amarr ships r the laughing stock of the community...examples: Sacrilege, Malediction, Vengeance (fixed..dont believe the hype!), Apoc (now a minnie ship), Retribution (one eyed jack). WHY is it minnie ships r so viable in pvp ..give Amarr (and other races a better chance! I have flown all races but i really love the amarr and hopefully CCP will love amarr back. Oh yeah ..i dont care what u guys say..i have a right to whine just like everyone else. Boost the Amarr! Give em a chance! TUX here here!
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.10 13:47:00 -
[514 ]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Kenan Waroria whole lot of rebuttle 1) t2 ammo in general is stupid for every gun... and not everyone uses it in pvp even on t2 guns. 2) Arbitrator is also a good, cheap drone ship and quite effective at making hybrids and projectiles futile. 3) Have you flown a Bhalg or a Nightmare? Can you honestly say a Rattlesnake can out tank a Nightmare without resorting to officer loot? I will take an armor tank, pulse, siege setup on a nightmare any day of the week. Machariel is a beautiful ship but it does nothing a tempest can do unless you have a snake set and officer mods. Nightmare is frightening with just basic tech II. I have flown them all. Officer loot do make Rattlers and Machs nice but Chelm on a nightmare or Bhalg are no slouch either... and a vindicator makes me laugh tbh... and yes... I have an account that is a Gallente ***** so I am very intamate with Gallente tech. 4) I have certainly used Domis to fight Guristas. As well as megas. But that is neither here nor there... gurista loot is mostly junk compared to sansha loot which recycles to provide more than the damn bounties. Domis are also good vs sansha but a geddon is better... period. 5) I have 2 amarr specialization accounts... 1 for fleets with caldari BS as well for nightmares and 1 that is nearing having every t2 ship up to command ships... I know these ship intamately as well as every other race in the game... amarr is no worse off than any race... you just think the grass is greener. 6) Amarr Drones... why even bring that up? You can use any race of drone and get 50% hp and damage from arbi platforms. If you want explosive damage you can use explosive drones on any amarr ship with a drone bay. It doesn't need to be in t2 ammo there are far better things for t2 ammo to do than just have more damage. If they get explosive ammo then I want t2 proj ammo to cover ALL FOUR damage types in one round. You game for that? 7) ships getting under your optimal... oh noes you met a pilot that knows more than f1,f2,f3.... geez the only ship that should be a problem on is the maller if they have a tracking disruptor or an arguror. Amarr BSs have drone space that are very able to defend at close range. Nothing is stopping you from having t2 lights/meds on an apoc and ECM heavies on an armageddon. Don't forget about the 2 sieges on an apoc... Anyways... like a lot of folks said its about situation. The balance problems aren't mathmatics except in extreme cases that happen on every side of the field. The biggest problem is player problem with Flavor of the year fighting... fleet battles that are dictated by people who you don't dare talk back to out of fear of being booted out the alliance etc etc. Even small pvp corps could see problems if they are too small to have a fully fleshed out fleet. However, that isn't a DEV problem.... I was gonna pick apart your post and show what a dumbass you are. But i cant be bothered, you just arent worth it. this is about amarr and lazers. Nightmares and bhaalgorns are another freaking faction you moron.
Kaylana Syi
Posted - 2006.06.10 15:39:00 -
[515 ]
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 10/06/2006 15:39:27 Originally by: BirdBleed I was gonna pick apart your post and show what a dumbass you are. But i cant be bothered, you just arent worth it. this is about amarr and lazers. Nightmares and bhaalgorns are another freaking faction you moron. Pretty much sums up what you should do Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Tel Bakhara
Posted - 2006.06.10 17:16:00 -
[516 ]
Sacrilege, Malediction, Vengeance they are not fixed, they are just wasted. they wasted 3 Nouns. We should call them for now: Zealot Jr. , Crusader Jr. and Retribution Jr. Same old philosophy, half the price, half they works Khanid Innovations are a scared child back to home given up his dreams.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.10 20:44:00 -
[517 ]
when you consider a tachyon2 setup on a apoc with long and short range T2 crystals the cost is staggering. tachyon 2's = 40mill Aurora crystals = 40mill Gleam crystals = 35mill thats 115mill worth just to power the highslots i seriously doubt that any other race with tech2 fittings are forced to load up with 115mill worth of highslots just to function ? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Dristra
Posted - 2006.06.10 22:15:00 -
[518 ]
Hi, after seeing the rant about how bad the amarr lasers where, I had to agree as I am a amaar pilot myself, and always have problems running out of cap, and thereby finding myself unable to tank for any extended period of time... I then read about the arma or apoc with autocannons performing very well so I tried training up my cannon skill, and soon outfitted my omen with some autocannonÆs The result: wow, I was taken by surprise when I could successfully tank for what seemed forever while still blasting down enemies... Not only that but I could fill my ship with four 425 mm autocannons, the heavy pulse lasers I believe are on par I could only manage to fit 3 of... (cpu need) So no more lasers for me, here we go for the minmatar garbage and toilet paper tech! Sure, I have somewhat reduced range, but the rate of fire, multitude of damage types and no cap use more than make up for it.
Lucian Alucard
Posted - 2006.06.11 01:11:00 -
[519 ]
Originally by: Xendie when you consider a tachyon2 setup on a apoc with long and short range T2 crystals the cost is staggering. tachyon 2's = 40mill Aurora crystals = 40mill Gleam crystals = 35mill thats 115mill worth just to power the highslots i seriously doubt that any other race with tech2 fittings are forced to load up with 115mill worth of highslots just to function ? Thank you,I don't mind paying abhorride amounts of isk to kit a bs out if it pwns. Now atm I have enough sp to where I still am effective and kick ass in a fleet fight but in a gang lower then 15 I get nervous flying a geddon or apoc,typically I just switch out to a raven.
Dreez
Posted - 2006.06.11 02:27:00 -
[520 ]
Originally by: Malken with the Mega now able to wtfpwn at close range and long range Did i miss some secret patch .Having Tuxford fixing the blasters is like having a blind man teaching you how to drive - just wont work.
Lavondyss
Posted - 2006.06.11 03:11:00 -
[521 ]
Amarr needs explosive T2 ammo. The whole EM/Therm damage only is getting annoying and very predictable. The only attention the Amarrian race has recieved in the last year was in the form of a Megapulse and damage mod nerf. The damage mod nerf was of course for all races but it really hit home with the beloved Gankageddon. To make this short and sweet it's time for the devs to send a little love Amarr's way.
BlackHorizon
Posted - 2006.06.11 03:20:00 -
[522 ]
A griffin, a Caldari tech 1 frig, has the same sensor strength as the geddon. Boost amarr please, they need more help than simply a boost to lasers.
Brakkis
Posted - 2006.06.11 06:52:00 -
[523 ]
Originally by: "Aemilus Brutus" Right now the Amarr tanks/damage have not kept up with the changes in the game (keep in mind cap-less damage something the Amarr can't do). Can't? Is there some prohibition against mounting projectile weapons on amarr ships that I'm not aware of?
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.06.11 07:26:00 -
[524 ]
Originally by: Brakkis Originally by: "Aemilus Brutus" Right now the Amarr tanks/damage have not kept up with the changes in the game (keep in mind cap-less damage something the Amarr can't do). Can't? Is there some prohibition against mounting projectile weapons on amarr ships that I'm not aware of? Read the thread. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Parhelion
Posted - 2006.06.11 08:00:00 -
[525 ]
Originally by: BlackHorizon Boost amarr please, they need more help than simply a boost to lasers. hear hear! /signed
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.11 09:28:00 -
[526 ]
Originally by: BlackHorizon A griffin, a Caldari tech 1 frig, has the same sensor strength as the geddon. God! I wasn't aware that it was THAT bad! But before changing this, let's see how the new ECM will do. Maybe it will denerf the low sensor strength of amarrian ships a bit.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.11 09:38:00 -
[527 ]
Originally by: BlackHorizon A griffin, a Caldari tech 1 frig, has the same sensor strength as the geddon. Boost amarr please, they need more help than simply a boost to lasers. rofl, Tux balancing 4tL Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.11 10:17:00 -
[528 ]
Originally by: Dreez Originally by: Malken with the Mega now able to wtfpwn at close range and long range Did i miss some secret patch . Yes you did Dreez bt's can now fit tripple larage reps and 7x neutrons wihtout any fitting mods and have the cap to sustain it all for 4 mins Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.11 10:29:00 -
[529 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 11/06/2006 10:29:27 Originally by: BlackHorizon A griffin, a Caldari tech 1 frig, has the same sensor strength as the geddon. Boost amarr please, they need more help than simply a boost to lasers. Well, I wouldn't mind the lower sensor strength if we had other advantages to balance that out (which ATM isn't really the case). From the game lore Amarr ships are supposed to be the "low tech" ones.
Tel Bakhara
Posted - 2006.06.11 10:41:00 -
[530 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 11/06/2006 10:29:27 Originally by: BlackHorizon A griffin, a Caldari tech 1 frig, has the same sensor strength as the geddon. Boost amarr please, they need more help than simply a boost to lasers. Well, I wouldn't mind the lower sensor strength if we had other advantages to balance that out (which ATM isn't really the case). From the game lore Amarr ships are supposed to be the "low tech" ones. Man, nice point man! So Devs should think about this... How could Relegion and slavery help Amarrians? Amarr ships have nice name but how it helps? Or the 3rd type of laser dmg we are asking is ..err.. not explosive but Divine? lol...
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.06.11 10:47:00 -
[531 ]
Just to throw in some sensor strength numbers in here... Battleship(sensor strength): Armageddon(17) Typhoon(18) Tempest(19) Apocalypse(20) Megathron(21) Dominix(22) Raven(22) Scorpion(24) Battlecruiser(sensor strength): Prophecy(16) Cyclone(16) Brutix(18) Ferox(19) Cruiser(sensor strength): Augoror(11) Scythe(11) Bellicose(11) Arbitrator(12) Rupture(12) Omen(13) Stabber(13) Exequror(13) Maller(14) Osprey(14) Vexor(14) Thorax(15) Caracal(15) Moa(16) Celestis(18) Blackbird(20) Frigate(sensor strength): Burst(4) Slasher(5) Tormentor(5) Probe(6) Executioner(6) Navitas(6) Atron(7) Bantam(7) Inquisitor(8) Condor(8) Rifter(8) Breacher(8) Punisher(9) Imicus(9) Incursus(9) Kestrel(10) Tristan(10) Merlin(11) Vigil(12) Crucifier(14) Heron(15) Maulus(16) Griffin(17) Sensor strength comparison - Amarr cruisers vs. other race cruisers: Same or better than Augoror(11): Scythe(11) Bellicose(11) Arbitrator(12) Rupture(12) Omen(13) Stabber(13) Exequror(13) Maller(14) Osprey(14) Vexor(14) Thorax(15) Caracal(15) Moa(16) Celestis(18) Blackbird(20) Same or better than Arbitrator: Arbitrator(12) Rupture(12) Omen(13) Stabber(13) Exequror(13) Maller(14) Osprey(14) Vexor(14) Thorax(15) Caracal(15) Moa(16) Celestis(18) Blackbird(20) Same or better than Omen: Omen(13) Stabber(13) Exequror(13) Maller(14) Osprey(14) Vexor(14) Thorax(15) Caracal(15) Moa(16) Celestis(18) Blackbird(20) Same or better than Maller: Maller(14) Osprey(14) Vexor(14) Thorax(15) Caracal(15) Moa(16) Celestis(18) Blackbird(20) Sensor strength comparison - Amarr frigates vs. other race frigates: Same or better than Crucifier: Crucifier(14) Heron(15) Maulus(16) Griffin(17) Same or better than Executioner: Probe(6) Executioner(6) Navitas(6) Atron(7) Bantam(7) Inquisitor(8) Condor(8) Rifter(8) Breacher(8) Punisher(9) Imicus(9) Incursus(9) Kestrel(10) Tristan(10) Merlin(11) Vigil(12) Crucifier(14) Heron(15) Maulus(16) Griffin(17) Same or better than Inquisitor: Inquisitor(8) Condor(8) Rifter(8) Breacher(8) Punisher(9) Imicus(9) Incursus(9) Kestrel(10) Tristan(10) Merlin(11) Vigil(12) Crucifier(14) Heron(15) Maulus(16) Griffin(17) Same or better than Punisher: Punisher(9) Imicus(9) Incursus(9) Kestrel(10) Tristan(10) Merlin(11) Vigil(12) Crucifier(14) Heron(15) Maulus(16) Griffin(17) Same or better than Tormentor: Tormentor(5) Probe(6) Executioner(6) Navitas(6) Atron(7) Bantam(7) Inquisitor(8) Condor(8) Rifter(8) Breacher(8) Punisher(9) Imicus(9) Incursus(9) Kestrel(10) Tristan(10) Merlin(11) Vigil(12) Crucifier(14) Heron(15) Maulus(16) Griffin(17) This is mainly for future reference, I'm not trying to prove anything besides that Griffin has same sensor strength than Armageddon but that was already said so nothing new here. Since I have over 1000 characters left, here's one more copy-paste stat: Sensor strength comparison - Amarr battleships vs. other race frigates, cruisers and battlecruisers: Armageddon(17) Griffin(17) Celestis(18) Brutix(18) Ferox(19) Blackbird(20) Apocalypse(20) Blackbird(20) Poor Arma... ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
weedmasta
Posted - 2006.06.11 10:53:00 -
[532 ]
How about giving them a bonus/ability in line with their history (rp) and the type of ships they fly i.e. some type of self regenerating armor or active armor. I thought about this and it made sense to me. Now a lot of people will be outraged and say omg wtf is he talking about and that is so not fair and bla bla bla. Well, if Amarr can't do decent damage or won't due to the OMG AMARR USES NO AMMO posts that pop up every now and then by people who don't fly amarr ships, at least amarr ships should be able to tank properly (amarr ships = tanking, rite or wronG?) while doing their usual crap damage. This would also further define their role as armor tankers. Let the flaming commence __________________________________________________
Mizura
Posted - 2006.06.11 11:12:00 -
[533 ]
Edited by: Mizura on 11/06/2006 11:12:04 I'd be happy with a reduction of the grid usage on T2 Tachs :(
Kenan Waroria
Posted - 2006.06.11 11:15:00 -
[534 ]
Edited by: Kenan Waroria on 11/06/2006 11:16:16 Well, it¦s not only about sensor strenght you have to look at scan resolution and locking range as well. Sensor Scan Range Arma: 17 110mm 65km Apoc: 20 95mm 68km Typhoon: 18 115mm 60km Tempest: 19 100mm 63km Megathron: 21 95mm 73km Dominix: 22 90mm 70km Raven: 22 85mm 75km Scorpion: 24 75mm 90km
It¦s really not that unbalanced. Each ship is good at something but not blanced if you compare Apoc with Mega but that¦s the only unbalanced otherwise each ship has something it¦s better at than any other ship (looking at them 1on1). If you would change anything here it would be Apoc and Tempest scan resolution that would be upped 5mm each (to 100mm and 105mm). -= Think negative and you¦ll get positive surprices =-
TribalBleb
Posted - 2006.06.11 12:43:00 -
[535 ]
This has everything to do with the advantages and the disadvantages of all races in eve. Over the last couple of years people have always been whining about the disadvantages of all races and the devs did something about it by nerfing or boosting something. A good example is the ômissile overhaulö which is imo nothing more than an attempt to simulate turrets with missiles, the speed increase to simulate the instead hit turrets have, damage depending on the targets speed to simulate tracking and so on. In other words, by ôfixingö the disadvantages of each race all races will eventually become pretty much the same, which is stupid. In the old days amarr was pretty much a low tech race (which it still is) low sensor strength, easy to jam, etc. But they did had extreme firepower, they could do a lot of damage even at longer ranges with their ôclose rangeö guns (megapulses) now I believe every race expect amarr had some of damage boosts making laser damage no longer as good. Now with one of the latest changes in eve, the armor compensation skills the way people tank their ships changed, 2x energized adaptive and a damage control are becoming more and more commonly used in pvp, so you end up having roughly 80% em resistance and 70% thermal resistance which are the main damage types for amarr. So now amarr ends up doing pretty much the same damage other races do probably even less with the 2x energized adaptive with a damage control tanks, being very predictable, easy to jam, very few med slots (no ecm). The only advantage amarr has over other races is that they can tank a little bit better then gallante and minmatar, caldari can tank just as good if not better. Solution, I donÆt have a clue its very complicated, I think races should be more ôextremeö in their advantages and disadvantages. Caldari with their primary weapons missiles which are slow but always doing full damage, amarr being predictable and easy to jam but doing very good damage, minmatar having the ability to fire every damage type but doing less damage then other races and being very unpredictable, shield tank, armor tank, gank setups, ecm, all possible with mimatar. I donÆt know about gallante, they seem to be fine atm.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.11 15:39:00 -
[536 ]
funny stuff, griffin a T1 frigate i might add got a higher sensor strenght then a T2 Command ship the Absolution. now something is wrong is this dont you think? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.06.11 16:06:00 -
[537 ]
Originally by: TribalBleb This has everything to do with the advantages and the disadvantages of all races in eve. Over the last couple of years people have always been whining about the disadvantages of all races and the devs did something about it by nerfing or boosting something. A good example is the ômissile overhaulö which is imo nothing more than an attempt to simulate turrets with missiles, the speed increase to simulate the instead hit turrets have, damage depending on the targets speed to simulate tracking and so on. In other words, by ôfixingö the disadvantages of each race all races will eventually become pretty much the same, which is stupid. In the old days amarr was pretty much a low tech race (which it still is) low sensor strength, easy to jam, etc. But they did had extreme firepower, they could do a lot of damage even at longer ranges with their ôclose rangeö guns (megapulses) now I believe every race expect amarr had some of damage boosts making laser damage no longer as good. Now with one of the latest changes in eve, the armor compensation skills the way people tank their ships changed, 2x energized adaptive and a damage control are becoming more and more commonly used in pvp, so you end up having roughly 80% em resistance and 70% thermal resistance which are the main damage types for amarr. So now amarr ends up doing pretty much the same damage other races do probably even less with the 2x energized adaptive with a damage control tanks, being very predictable, easy to jam, very few med slots (no ecm). The only advantage amarr has over other races is that they can tank a little bit better then gallante and minmatar, caldari can tank just as good if not better. Solution, I donÆt have a clue its very complicated, I think races should be more ôextremeö in their advantages and disadvantages. Caldari with their primary weapons missiles which are slow but always doing full damage, amarr being predictable and easy to jam but doing very good damage, minmatar having the ability to fire every damage type but doing less damage then other races and being very unpredictable, shield tank, armor tank, gank setups, ecm, all possible with mimatar. I donÆt know about gallante, they seem to be fine atm. actually if you look at the ships amarr are about the worsed tanks in the game. Sleipnir>absolution, blasterthron>geddon (who the **** uses an apoc in pvp) amarr has no edge whatsoever except for the sac but all the sac can do is tank so imo that doesn't count
Kaylana Syi
Posted - 2006.06.11 17:06:00 -
[538 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Dreez Originally by: Malken with the Mega now able to wtfpwn at close range and long range Did i miss some secret patch . Yes you did Dreez bt's can now fit tripple larage reps and 7x neutrons wihtout any fitting mods and have the cap to sustain it all for 4 mins Look... bt's still suck. I don't care what noob kills you get to make you think it's better since the patch. Sure... they aren't total loosermobiles but they are far from being what they should be... useful. Take them up against vet Tempets pilots and they will mop the floor with you and soon Typhoons will be bt's replacement on the field. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.06.11 17:22:00 -
[539 ]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Dreez Originally by: Malken with the Mega now able to wtfpwn at close range and long range Did i miss some secret patch . Yes you did Dreez bt's can now fit tripple larage reps and 7x neutrons wihtout any fitting mods and have the cap to sustain it all for 4 mins Look... bt's still suck. I don't care what noob kills you get to make you think it's better since the patch. Sure... they aren't total loosermobiles but they are far from being what they should be... useful. Take them up against vet Tempets pilots and they will mop the floor with you and soon Typhoons will be bt's replacement on the field. amarr thread dear, let's let the b-thron v tempest comparisons out of the topic where they belong
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.11 17:25:00 -
[540 ]
Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Dreez Originally by: Malken with the Mega now able to wtfpwn at close range and long range Did i miss some secret patch . Yes you did Dreez bt's can now fit tripple larage reps and 7x neutrons wihtout any fitting mods and have the cap to sustain it all for 4 mins Look... bt's still suck. I don't care what noob kills you get to make you think it's better since the patch. Sure... they aren't total loosermobiles but they are far from being what they should be... useful. Take them up against vet Tempets pilots and they will mop the floor with you and soon Typhoons will be bt's replacement on the field. amarr thread dear, let's let the b-thron v tempest comparisons out of the topic where they belong the op brought up the subject of how uber the bt is now Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Ganandorf
Posted - 2006.06.11 17:28:00 -
[541 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Dreez Originally by: Malken with the Mega now able to wtfpwn at close range and long range Did i miss some secret patch . Yes you did Dreez bt's can now fit tripple larage reps and 7x neutrons wihtout any fitting mods and have the cap to sustain it all for 4 mins Look... bt's still suck. I don't care what noob kills you get to make you think it's better since the patch. Sure... they aren't total loosermobiles but they are far from being what they should be... useful. Take them up against vet Tempets pilots and they will mop the floor with you and soon Typhoons will be bt's replacement on the field. amarr thread dear, let's let the b-thron v tempest comparisons out of the topic where they belong the op brought up the subject of how uber the bt is now then compare how amarr suck vs a b-thron and how amarr suck vs a tempest or something this post was a whine about the suckage of a b-thron while we're whining about amarr atm
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.11 18:26:00 -
[542 ]
I don't much care about sensors. I think there are bigger issues with Amarr that need to be addressed. Adding sensors to the list may muddy the water a bit. I say look at tanks, damage, and fittings before sensors.
Dhin Xar
Posted - 2006.06.11 19:12:00 -
[543 ]
Personally, I think any changes to Amarr should be in the areas of tanking and damage. Amarr should be about brute force, not ECM and whatever. Currently, Amarr damage is largely mitigated by the almost free resists most people have on their tanks. The tank can end up being lower than Caldari just because Caldari often have an easier time fitting and don't use cap to fire missiles.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.11 19:48:00 -
[544 ]
Originally by: Aemilus Brutus I don't much care about sensors. I think there are bigger issues with Amarr that need to be addressed. Adding sensors to the list may muddy the water a bit. I say look at tanks, damage, and fittings before sensors. its another thing to add though. the Amarr ships dont shine at all in well to be frank... everything from dmg to tank or sensor strenght or economy. to be frank its not a viable race to play anymore if you want any value for the isk you put in to it. all the other races cost less to fit, tanks better, does dmg better. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.06.11 20:48:00 -
[545 ]
rp-wise amarr should have the advantage of quantity but you can't enforce that advantage by making everyone play amarr ''yeah you amarr guys aren't underpowered, you should just come with 40 geddons and I'll come in my tempest then it'd be balanced''
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.06.11 20:56:00 -
[546 ]
Originally by: Xendie funny stuff, griffin a T1 frigate i might add got a higher sensor strenght then a T2 Command ship the Absolution. now something is wrong is this dont you think? Griffin is an electronics and sensor intensive ship. I.e. it's a Caldari EWar ship. All EWar ships get tons of sensor strength. And it's also Caldari. Which means it gets even more sensor strength. Also, HAC-type ships aren't known for their high sensor strengths. Absolotion is a HAC-type ship.New sig coming soonÖ Single dots after a sentence. Line break before beginning a new line of reasoning. Such small things to help people read your post.
Fio'el Testament
Posted - 2006.06.12 03:43:00 -
[547 ]
Some very nice ideas involve weapon grouping to fast-change ammo/crystals in guns (there is a thread on this somewhere...) I think switching the EM and Thermal ratios for lasers would make a lot of sense and balance it a little. Maybe you could even add a small % explosive dmg. Kinetic just isn't that convincing... When I look at Raven vs Apocalypse, the raven has a higher total hit point than the Apoc, that kind of goes against the apoc being the biggest, baddest tank around... I liked the armor hp recharge on amarr ships, that would be interesting since they are supposed to be armor kings. Would be interesting if it were like the Mammoth tanks of Command and Conquer, that the armor recharges with a certain speed, but only up to 50 %. As long as it isn't done with abuse it may help the tanks. But I can already hear the 3 other races whine :p Also, when's our tachyon boost? :p Could the laser cap bonuses on amarr ships apply to all laser types? Could lasers simply use less cap? Just throwing out ideas which I'm sure have aready been said in 19 pages, scratch that, *have* been said :p
Dristra
Posted - 2006.06.12 08:07:00 -
[548 ]
Originally by: Fio'el Testament When I look at Raven vs Apocalypse, the raven has a higher total hit point than the Apoc, that kind of goes against the apoc being the biggest, baddest tank around... Are you serious?
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.12 09:22:00 -
[549 ]
not much but still less 11313 armor+shields for the raven 10969 armor+shields for the apoc Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Dristra
Posted - 2006.06.12 10:28:00 -
[550 ]
This tread makes me depressed, why did I choose amarrà. At least I train projectile weapons now
Walok
Posted - 2006.06.12 10:33:00 -
[551 ]
Buff lasers! *duck* - Walok (I make signatures for 10mil ISK)
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.12 10:36:00 -
[552 ]
All Amarrian ships should just have an inbuilt laser cap reduction, not in form of a bonus. Free up the one bonus slot on many Amarrian ships and add something else. Amarrian technology should be the only one able to support the cap hungry lasers. P.S. Yes, I'm also training projectiles currently and I'm pleasantly surprised. Choosing different ammo types tinkered for the specific encounter, not using any cap to fire, artillery for the 'BOOM' - big damage effect, autocannons for really good close range damage and insanely low fitting... can't really beat all those advantages. They are alot more fun to play with as well. *looks at lasers and sighs* Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.12 10:47:00 -
[553 ]
Originally by: Forsch All Amarrian ships should just have an inbuilt laser cap reduction, not in form of a bonus. Free up the one bonus slot on many Amarrian ships and add something else. Amarrian technology should be the only one able to support the cap hungry lasers. P.S. Yes, I'm also training projectiles currently and I'm pleasantly surprised. Choosing different ammo types tinkered for the specific encounter, not using any cap to fire, artillery for the 'BOOM' - big damage effect, autocannons for really good close range damage and insanely low fitting... can't really beat all those advantages. They are alot more fun to play with as well. *looks at lasers and sighs* it feels very wrong though doesnt it? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Monkphish
Posted - 2006.06.12 11:12:00 -
[554 ]
Im armarr specialized and i think the problem is more fundamental than lazors suck. Most Armarr ships are low slot heavy yet for pvp most of the critical modules are all mid slot stuff, webs, scrams, ewar, cap boosters, mwd/ab. Sensor booster modules have a low slot equivelent, why? oh yes, some thermal on radio please
FlukeMyster
Posted - 2006.06.12 11:47:00 -
[555 ]
:'( ahh well it seems like its time to stop bothering with amarr.... methinks the armour regen idea would be a boost though..pity itll probably never be introduced since the GMs seem to hate amarr :'( peace -Fluke "Good Things come to those who wait....Unless you're a raddish " \o/
Hey You
Posted - 2006.06.12 11:50:00 -
[556 ]
For making Amarr BSes more worthy.. Dual Heavies get a base of .3 more DMG mod. Megapulse get a base of .45 more DMG mod. Something like that. << ------------------------------
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.06.12 13:02:00 -
[557 ]
multiply the cap use of lasers by 50 and then give 99% reduction in laser cap use as a bonus like the 99% CPU crap you find on siege modules and cov ops cloaks and stuff, then give amarr a 2nd REAL bonus which should be, in most cases, since it's amarr, an armor tanking bonus (armor hp, resistance bonus, repairer effectiveness, cap bonus, cap recharge bonus, whatever you get the idea) also change thermal to main damage type and EM to secondary. Gallente is thermal but they use hybrids so their main is kinetic anyway
Talos Darkhart
Posted - 2006.06.12 13:29:00 -
[558 ]
Amarr whining makes me laugh amarr are not bad it's just got more balanced gone are the days when a whole alliances fleet consisted of 90% Amarr battleships. Pulses got balanced armour tanking is still better than sheild tanking and when ppl moan about lasers only doing 2 dmg types they forget rails also only do 2 dmg types. CCP tried to give the Amarr a bit of variaty with there dmg by adding kanhid ships with missles and yes they were not perfect but instead of asking for them to be improved The Amarr moaned until they got turned into more basic Amarr ships. Amarr are by no means the worst race that dubious distinction still goes to those lovers of there own cousins and duct tape the minmatar
Ganandorf
Posted - 2006.06.12 13:38:00 -
[559 ]
Originally by: Talos Darkhart Amarr whining makes me laugh amarr are not bad it's just got more balanced gone are the days when a whole alliances fleet consisted of 90% Amarr battleships. Pulses got balanced armour tanking is still better than sheild tanking and when ppl moan about lasers only doing 2 dmg types they forget rails also only do 2 dmg types. CCP tried to give the Amarr a bit of variaty with there dmg by adding kanhid ships with missles and yes they were not perfect but instead of asking for them to be improved The Amarr moaned until they got turned into more basic Amarr ships. Amarr are by no means the worst race that dubious distinction still goes to those lovers of there own cousins and duct tape the minmatar yeah? I'd like to see a minmatar ship lose to an amarr ship :/ and since when is armor tanking better then shield tanking? I missed the year that happenned
Toaster Oven
Posted - 2006.06.12 13:53:00 -
[560 ]
Edited by: Toaster Oven on 12/06/2006 13:59:11 Changes I would like to see made: 1. Get rid of the stupid laser cap bonus. It's nothing more than a *wasted* fitting bonus to prevent lasers from being used on other ships. Which is lame seeing as no other race is saddled by the same restrictions. I mean hell, why not restrict blasters in the same way while you're at it? Instead, increase grid requirements on all laser turrets, as well as increase grid on Amarr gunships. Then decrease cap use on all laser turrets by 50%. This to net the same effect as the current laser cap bonus of excluding use on non-Amarr ships. Nothing too drastic of course. The exact amount depending on a ship by ship basis as needed. You say this would open up room for some oddball setups on Amarr ships? YES! And why not? Amarr in general cannot do ECM at all. All they can do is tank or gank. So they should have the most options of doing so, compared to other races that can mix in ECM. 2. With the above fix, give Amarr ships a more useful bonus. For example, Omen and Geddon could get a tracking bonus. Maller could get a cap amount bonus. Apoc could get a resistance bonus. Etc, etc, etc 3. Fix cruiser sized pulses. The grid requirements are completely atrocious and dmg output completely horrendous compared to other race turrets and the available grid on Amarr cruisers. Of all available T1 and T2 Amarr cruisers, there is only *one* that can make decent use of cruiser sized pulses. That is the Zealot. There is something really really wrong if only *one* Amarr cruiser can use these guns effectively. Adjust the specs of the Zealot if you have to, but please make cruiser pulses more useful to the rest of us that don't want to fly around 180M toys just to make use of our SP. 4. Fix frigate size medium beams. There is NO Amarr frigate that can fit these in anything approaching a viable setup. Why are they so completely atrociously hard to fit?!? 5. Battleship beams fitting requirements need looking at. Why is it that I need *2* fitting mods to fit the largest beams on either a Geddon or Apoc? The fitting requirements are completely out of whack compared to other races. On that note, why do I STILL need a fitting mod to fit Mega Beams, the middle turret option for battleships? At the very least, I should be able to fit a full rack of them without a fitting mod. But no, I have to drop ALL the way down to the smallest available beams if I want to fit a full rack on my Amarr BS 6. Sensor strength. In this day and age of ECM, it makes absolutely NO sense at all that Amarr have the lowest sensor strength. Instead, they should have the *highest* sensor strength of all races. Since Amarr ships in general have little to no EW capability, they should have high sensor strength to compensate. As is right now, we have no EW to counter/protect ourselves. On top of that we have the lowest sensor strength making us the easiest targets. It's a double kick in the crotch and something has to be done about it.
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.12 16:37:00 -
[561 ]
Originally by: Talos Darkhart Amarr whining makes me laugh amarr are not bad it's just got more balanced gone are the days when a whole alliances fleet consisted of 90% Amarr battleships. Hehe, that must have been an amarrian roleplay alliance, that is still trying to 'stick to their guns'. But hey, I can understand that more and more people train different races, even in the CVA. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.12 23:26:00 -
[562 ]
Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Talos Darkhart Amarr whining makes me laugh amarr are not bad it's just got more balanced gone are the days when a whole alliances fleet consisted of 90% Amarr battleships. Hehe, that must have been an amarrian roleplay alliance, that is still trying to 'stick to their guns'. But hey, I can understand that more and more people train different races, even in the CVA. with the character in wich ive mainly trained amarr with i do want to fly amarr ships with and use amarr guns but its becoming less and less fun to do that with the way amarr ships are atm Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Scary Noises
Posted - 2006.06.13 01:57:00 -
[563 ]
Atleast they should be made more shiny. Hey, it's something!
Agama
Posted - 2006.06.13 03:54:00 -
[564 ]
Originally by: Toaster Oven Edited by: Toaster Oven on 12/06/2006 13:59:11 Changes I would like to see made: 1. Get rid of the stupid laser cap bonus. It's nothing more than a *wasted* fitting bonus to prevent lasers from being used on other ships. 2. With the above fix, give Amarr ships a more useful bonus. For example, Omen and Geddon could get a tracking bonus. Maller could get a cap amount bonus. Apoc could get a resistance bonus. Etc, etc, etc 3. Fix cruiser sized pulses. 4. Fix frigate size medium beams. There is NO Amarr frigate that can fit these in anything approaching a viable setup. Why are they so completely atrociously hard to fit?!? 5. Battleship beams fitting requirements need looking at. 6. Sensor strength. In this day and age of ECM, it makes absolutely NO sense at all that Amarr have the lowest sensor strength. I am an Amarr pilot myself and I agree with all points except 6. 1. The cap usage "bonus" is a lame one. Up the grid slighly on the guns and give the ships more grid. That will restrict their use. 2. Kinda like 1. Free up the cap bonus and give us a real bonus. 3. Aye. Cruiser pulses are crazy to fit. 4. The frigate lasers are insane to fit (grid wise) Heck even the Claw and Crusader have the same PG!!! I know which one is easier to fit (I fly both) 5. Again.....the guns are too hard to fit. 6. Don't know about Amarr having the biggest sensor strength. The sensor strength could be boosted though. How about giving Amarr ships a Nos/Neut bonus on a few more ships since its one of "their" weapon systems? I love my amarr ships but I have all but given up on them now. The crap CPU, next to no mid slots, crap gun bonus and the fact other races actually have useful cruisers, don't have ships with 1 mid slot!!! (wtf?), and actually have 2 good HACs, Assault ships, etc etc. Oh well...ranting now. I guess I just have to suck it up and train another racial ship until Amarr get fixed. 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.13 08:51:00 -
[565 ]
Originally by: Agama I love my amarr ships but I have all but given up on them now. The crap CPU, next to no mid slots, crap gun bonus and the fact other races actually have useful cruisers, don't have ships with 1 mid slot!!! (wtf?), and actually have 2 good HACs, Assault ships, etc etc. i totally agree with you, to much crap with to many amarr ships, it needs to be fixed. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.13 14:48:00 -
[566 ]
Must keep thread alive! Just like the Amarr, this thread could use some dev love
Exogene
Posted - 2006.06.13 16:23:00 -
[567 ]
Can't fit Dual Light Beam IIs on a ceptor without a PG mod go figure.
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.13 16:28:00 -
[568 ]
Originally by: Exogene Can't fit Dual Light Beam IIs on a ceptor without a PG mod go figure. most ceptor setups need a mapc Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.13 16:48:00 -
[569 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Exogene Can't fit Dual Light Beam IIs on a ceptor without a PG mod go figure. most ceptor setups need a mapc Exept Dual Light Beams are the *smallest* possible small laser. Try if you need a PG mod if you want to fit a full rack of 75mm gatlings
Exogene
Posted - 2006.06.13 16:51:00 -
[570 ]
^^^ Indeed!
Rambo Armsdealer
Posted - 2006.06.13 17:11:00 -
[571 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Exogene Can't fit Dual Light Beam IIs on a ceptor without a PG mod go figure. most ceptor setups need a mapc Exept Dual Light Beams are the *smallest* possible small laser. Try if you need a PG mod if you want to fit a full rack of 75mm gatlings *flies around happily with his crusader with dual light PULSE without a MAPC
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.06.13 17:18:00 -
[572 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Exogene Can't fit Dual Light Beam IIs on a ceptor without a PG mod go figure. most ceptor setups need a mapc Exept Dual Light Beams are the *smallest* possible small laser. Try if you need a PG mod if you want to fit a full rack of 75mm gatlings Compare dps, range, etc of those two guns. Dual Light Beam is comparable to 125mm Railgun (while better dps, fitting, and tracking, it's worse damage types for frigate combat)New sig coming soonÖ Single dots after a sentence. Line break before beginning a new line of reasoning. Such small things to help people read your post.
Dahak2150
Posted - 2006.06.13 17:56:00 -
[573 ]
Seriously rethinking getting that prophecy....
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.13 18:01:00 -
[574 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 13/06/2006 18:03:49 Originally by: Ithildin Dual Light Beam is comparable to 125mm Railgun (while better dps, fitting, and tracking, it's worse damage types for frigate combat) You never learn, do you? You again make the same mistake as last time you made such a statement - is it deliberate? You have to compare them with ship boni applied. Crusader: - 50% cap, +25% damage; Tanaris: +50% damage. Which gives us with the t2 versions of the guns and no other mods: Duallight: 0.94 DM/sec, 0.61 cap/sec, 0.13 tracking; 75mm: 1.04 DM/sec, 0.64 cap/sec, 0.13 tracking; 125mm: 1.11 DM/sec, 0.66 cap/sec, 0.085 tracking Now, the optimal range of the 75mm is only about 3/4 of the duallight, but it has a higher effective dps to make up for that. With the shipboni both guns are very much compareable.
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 18:45:00 -
[575 ]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 13/06/2006 18:45:38 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 13/06/2006 18:03:49 Originally by: Ithildin Dual Light Beam is comparable to 125mm Railgun (while better dps, fitting, and tracking, it's worse damage types for frigate combat) You never learn, do you? You again make the same mistake as last time you made such a statement - is it deliberate? You have to compare them with ship boni applied. Crusader: - 50% cap, +25% damage; Tanaris: +50% damage. Which gives us with the t2 versions of the guns and no other mods: Duallight: 0.94 DM/sec, 0.61 cap/sec, 0.13 tracking; 75mm: 1.04 DM/sec, 0.64 cap/sec, 0.13 tracking; 125mm: 1.11 DM/sec, 0.66 cap/sec, 0.085 tracking Now, the optimal range of the 75mm is only about 3/4 of the duallight, but it has a higher effective dps to make up for that. With the shipboni both guns are very much compareable. I hate to say it, but 75mm gatling rail is on the same level as 125mm gatling AC and gatling pulse, not dual light pulse. The difference is, 75mm rail is a "long range" gat. and the 125mm and gat pulse are short range. Also, you really can not compare a single gun on a taranis to a single gun on a crusader. Taranis w/ 3x 125mm rail w/ Lead s 124.25 cpu/4.67 pg remaining 57.3 DPS .133 tracking 13.5km optimal 6km falloff Crusader 61 cpu/3.56 pg remaining 64.7 DPS .203 tracking 13.125km optimal 3.6km falloff So, as you can see, the dps of dual light beams on a crusader is ~13% higher than 125mm rails on a taranis. However, you also notice that the taranis has much more cpu and enough remaining PG to fit its remaining open slots with the usual modules that req. 1pg each, while the crusader is lacking in both areas. IMO, crusader needs a 25 cpu and 2 pg boost, and then I think it will be up to par. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Lavondyss
Posted - 2006.06.13 18:48:00 -
[576 ]
Edited by: Lavondyss on 13/06/2006 18:49:10 Give the Amarr ships some much needed attention. I've already posted in this thread but for the sake of keeping it alive I am posting again. Devs it's time to pay the piper and break out some love
Zeldra Han
Posted - 2006.06.13 18:50:00 -
[577 ]
Can we get a reply from a dev to confirm whether or not this issue is going to be looked at please.
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.13 18:55:00 -
[578 ]
There are plenty of other interceptors that need looking @ first. Allthough med beams and such could use a PG reduction. Think thats the entire problem, not the ammar frigs themselves. _________________________________________________
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 19:05:00 -
[579 ]
Originally by: madaluap There are plenty of other interceptors that need looking @ first. Allthough med beams and such could use a PG reduction. Think thats the entire problem, not the ammar frigs themselves. Well, I agree guns are part of the problem, but the crusader is an excellent example of a gimped caldari ship. It has 100 cpu, where taranis has 150, and it only has 40 pg compared to 35 on a taranis, while having to support 4 turrets instead of 3, each using more PG than the 3 on the rails. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Deva Blackfire
Posted - 2006.06.13 19:10:00 -
[580 ]
caldari?!? Sader is a Carthum design -> pure Amarr
snotty
Posted - 2006.06.13 19:20:00 -
[581 ]
anyone notice that for a turet heavy race we lack a lot of turet options? how come there is no "extra small beam" like the 75 mm rail? where is the medium quad pulse and the large tach pulse? get them in and then do the rebalancing powergrid and ship bonus wise.
Stamm
Posted - 2006.06.13 19:22:00 -
[582 ]
Originally by: snotty anyone notice that for a turet heavy race we lack a lot of turet options? how come there is no "extra small beam" like the 75 mm rail? where is the medium quad pulse and the large tach pulse? get them in and then do the rebalancing powergrid and ship bonus wise. Tachyon pulses...drool.
Tar Ecthelion
Posted - 2006.06.13 19:37:00 -
[583 ]
Edited by: Tar Ecthelion on 13/06/2006 19:37:03 Originally by: Stamm Originally by: snotty anyone notice that for a turet heavy race we lack a lot of turet options? how come there is no "extra small beam" like the 75 mm rail? where is the medium quad pulse and the large tach pulse? get them in and then do the rebalancing powergrid and ship bonus wise. Tachyon pulses...drool. ..... "When you kill a man it costs nothing to be polite" Winston Churchill
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.13 19:51:00 -
[584 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 13/06/2006 19:55:00 Originally by: Letifer Deus ...Also, you really can not compare a single gun on a taranis to a single gun on a crusader. Taranis w/ 3x 125mm rail w/ Lead s 124.25 cpu/4.67 pg remaining 57.3 DPS .133 tracking 13.5km optimal 6km falloff Crusader 61 cpu/3.56 pg remaining 64.7 DPS .203 tracking 13.125km optimal 3.6km falloff So, as you can see, the dps of dual light beams on a crusader is ~13% higher than 125mm rails on a taranis. However, you also notice that the taranis has much more cpu and enough remaining PG to fit its remaining open slots with the usual modules that req. 1pg each, while the crusader is lacking in both areas. IMO, crusader needs a 25 cpu and 2 pg boost, and then I think it will be up to par. Fristly, write next time what modules you included, I had to redo the whole math to find out it is guns + MWD. Secondly, with the 125mm Tanaris needs to fit a MAPC to be able to run it's other modules in a realistic setup. With the 75mm it doesn't. Now replace the MAPC with a MFS II and you should get a dps of 65-66 for 3 75mm with lead s. With a 9.38 km optimal and a 3.75 falloff, though, so will come dangerously close to webber range. However, if you use spike S instead you will have a rather cosy optimal of 18.75, which is pretty much perfect. While still having a better tracking with spike than a 125mm with normal ammo. With spike s the 75mm is a better weapon for the tanaris than the 125mm (with any ammo you want), better tracking and more dps.
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.06.13 20:40:00 -
[585 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Also, you really can not compare a single gun on a taranis to a single gun on a crusader. Taranis w/ 3x 125mm rail w/ Lead s 124.25 cpu/4.67 pg remaining 57.3 DPS .133 tracking 13.5km optimal 6km falloff Crusader 61 cpu/3.56 pg remaining 64.7 DPS .203 tracking 13.125km optimal 3.6km falloff So, as you can see, the dps of dual light beams on a crusader is ~13% higher than 125mm rails on a taranis. However, you also notice that the taranis has much more cpu and enough remaining PG to fit its remaining open slots with the usual modules that req. 1pg each, while the crusader is lacking in both areas. IMO, crusader needs a 25 cpu and 2 pg boost, and then I think it will be up to par. Now, as far as medium beams, I do think their PG reqs are too high. They should be lowered to about 13 pg. Certain other amarr ships and guns need tweaks as well (almost exclusively at the frig and cruiser level). You are right about the fitting pg/cpu on the Crusader being too low. Ironically, it has the same pg as the Claw, while AC's are a joke to fit on.....well pretty much anything. And no cap needs for AC's now either. My only question on your ranis setup is why you haven't filled the last high slot. If you are going for a DPS comparison wouldn't it be an apples to apples comparison only if you filled all the available highslots? While missile launchers aren't the greatest dps without bonuses I think it would cover the 13% difference. If you are fitting a nos instead then a launcher then you are purposefully downgrading dps for versatility and it's no longer a good comparison. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 20:57:00 -
[586 ]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 13/06/2006 20:57:44 Originally by: Nyxus My only question on your ranis setup is why you haven't filled the last high slot. If you are going for a DPS comparison wouldn't it be an apples to apples comparison only if you filled all the available highslots? While missile launchers aren't the greatest dps without bonuses I think it would cover the 13% difference. If you are fitting a nos instead then a launcher then you are purposefully downgrading dps for versatility and it's no longer a good comparison. Nyxus PThere is no missle HP on a taranis, and personally, I never fit anything in my 4th high slot, because i find a small nos useless for how long inty v inty fights last once i get within that range, and i cant spare the cpu and pg. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.13 20:59:00 -
[587 ]
Originally by: Nyxus My only question on your ranis setup is why you haven't filled the last high slot. If you are going for a DPS comparison wouldn't it be an apples to apples comparison only if you filled all the available highslots? While missile launchers aren't the greatest dps without bonuses I think it would cover the 13% difference. If you are fitting a nos instead then a launcher then you are purposefully downgrading dps for versatility and it's no longer a good comparison. Tanaris has no launcher slots, only 3 guns slots. But, yes, he ignored the nos which is present in the 4th slot for most standart outfits.. I did not comment the Cru vs Tanaris comparsion because thats an issue of it's own (especially the med vs low issue for PvP), only the 125mm vs 75mm comparsion where the latter as shown are better for the full tech2 lvl.
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 20:59:00 -
[588 ]
Originally by: Toaster Oven Edited by: Toaster Oven on 12/06/2006 13:59:11 Changes I would like to see made: 1. Get rid of the stupid laser cap bonus. 2. With the above fix, give Amarr ships a more useful bonus. 3. Fix cruiser sized pulses. 4. Fix frigate size medium beams. 5. Battleship beams fitting requirements need looking at. 6. Sensor strength. 1) Lasers have a "built in" damage bonus. THAT is how the devs warrented making one of the ship bonuses a "useless" cap bonus. 2) Lasers already have by far the best tracking in game, so I can not see how giving them a tracking bonus is very fair. As far as an apoc with both a cap capacity and a resistance bonus, I can easily see how people could give an apoc an invulnatank or near to it, which, of course, is not exactly balanced. 3) I can't fit heavy neuts on my thorax, so if you lower pg reqs on heavy pulse, I hope you are planning on loweing it on heavy neuts, too. 4) No argument here, I totally agree. 5) First off, you have to realize that mega beams, not tachyons, are what is comparable to 425 rails and 1400 howi. Tachyons are really in a "special" class all their own, which is why their fitting reqs. are so rediculous. I believe the dmg increase Tux has proposed will bring tachs up to where they should be, and no more should be and that is all that needs to be said about them. Now, 7 Tachyons 2s should not even come close to fitting on an arma. 7 mega beams also shouldn't fit on an arma. Try fitting 6 425 rail 2s on a domi, it's also impossible. That is why they are tier 1. You should also not be able to fit 7 tachs on an arma. You also should not be able to fit 8 tachs on an apoc. HOWEVER, you SHOULD be able to fit 7 tachs or 8 mega beams on an apoc. Give the apoc 2500 more pg, give tachs their 10% dmg increase. 6) First off, many minmatar ships have lower sensor strength than amarr. Second, it makes perfect sense that Amarr have low sensor strength. Amarr are old school, they believe in heavy armor tanks and guns, not electronics. Thus they would not only not focus on EWar, but they would not have strong sensors. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 21:10:00 -
[589 ]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 13/06/2006 21:10:37 Originally by: Aramendel Fristly, write next time what modules you included, I had to redo the whole math to find out it is guns + MWD. With spike s the 75mm is a better weapon for the tanaris than the 125mm (with any ammo you want), better tracking and more dps. For the 10-20 km range at least, but for a < 10 km setup you do not use rails or beam lasers. oops, forgot to write it was guns + mwd. How does spike on a 75mm gat have better tracking than a 125mm? Tracking on a 125mm with T1 ammo is 2.6x better than a 75mm gat with spike. I am extremely doubtful that with .051 tracking you are going to hit an unwebbed interceptor. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.13 21:21:00 -
[590 ]
Er.. my error, I forgot that the t2 ammo penalities stack. This makes the 125mm a better gun vs bigger ships, but vs other inties (or bigger ships with no web) the 75mm is still better (with normal ammo).
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 21:24:00 -
[591 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Er.. my error, I forgot that the t2 ammo penalities stack. This makes the 125mm a better gun vs bigger ships, but vs other inties (or bigger ships with no web) the 75mm is still better (with normal ammo). Not necessarily. Although the tracking is better on 75mm gats, the range is also significantly less. I bet you will find that 125mm rails are still better. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.13 21:29:00 -
[592 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 13/06/2006 21:30:12 Originally by: Letifer Deus Not necessarily. Although the tracking is better on 75mm gats, the range is also significantly less. I bet you will find that 125mm rails are still better. It's about 3km difference in effective ranges, that should really not be a problem with an interceptor. The only real issue are webs. Originally by: Letifer Deus I've flown taranii since they came out, and not once used a nos. You cant even fit a small nos with 3x light ion 2s. You can fit one if you use electrons, but as I said earlier, a nos on a taranis is really pretty useless, as once you get in that range any frig-class target is going to die before it is useful. Well, a tech 1 frig, yes, but vs other interceptors or AF? Especially vs Amarr intys/AFs should a NOS be quite effective.
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.13 21:39:00 -
[593 ]
(had to cut short some of the quotes to get inside the char limit) Originally by: Letifer Deus 1) Lasers have a "built in" damage bonus. Yet the omen (one of the few amarr ships with a damage bonus) still gets outdamaged by just about every other cruiser at frig and cruiser level the 'built in' damage bonus is not enough imo, bs level damage is ok, geddon does pretty nasty dps when setup for it and the apoc does pants damage whatever you do, but it should be a tanking ship imo Originally by: Letifer Deus 2) Lasers already have by far the best tracking in game agreed mostly, tracking is fine imo, i've never really had a problem with the tracking on my lasers apoc needs the cap bonus replacing with something good, its useless for anything but PvE tanking, a good pvp tank needs a cap injector to run becuase you cant spare half the slots in your tank for cap relays and you'll probably just get nossed, with a cap injector total cap is pretty much irrelevant 7.5% to resist would be great and same for maller/prophecy Originally by: Letifer Deus 3) I can't fit heavy neuts on my thorax seems to me heavy pulse is closer to ions and focused pulse closer to electrons do the numbers, even heavy electrons outdamage heavy pulses (just barely) its just as hard (if not harder) to fit heavy pulses on amarr cruisers as heavy neutrons on gallente cruisers and the damage in comparison is utterly **** poor, you really need heavy pulses just to compete with ions/electrons a thorax can fit full rack of ion II's, mwd and rep, Omen can just about squeeze in focused pulse + ab + rep without an rcu, at this point you're outdamage by a thorax's drones let alone his nasty ebil blasters :( ion thorax MASSIVELY outdamages a heavy pulse omen which will have no tank what so ever (talking a small rep or a 400mm plate) and the range advantage is pretty much inconsequential at frig and cruiser level, how long does it take a mwd'ing thorax or taranis to go from the optimal+falloff of heavy pulses to the optimal+falloff of ion blasters? not to mention the optimal+falloff, damage and tracking of heavy ions with Null M is better on all counts than focused pulses with conflag on an omen AND is easier to fit on a thorax i used ions + focused pulses as these are pretty much the best you can fit without completely gimping your setup the thorax has the additional advantage of going completely gank with neutrons or adding more tank with electrons, omen cant really do either with the damage output of heavy pulses and the lack of choice for cruiser pulses if heavy pulses are supposed to be equivilent to neutrons then they need an enormous damage increase (unbalanced zealot?) or neutrons need a huge nerf (who cares, they dont fit anyway right?) personally what i'd like to see is a large grid boost for omen and maller ( in the area of 150grid more base grid) and a small damage increase for both pulses wow, rambled on a bit there, amarr cruisers and frigs are what i know best tho so Originally by: Letifer Deus 5) Try fitting 6 425 rail 2s on a domi, it's also impossible. That is why they are tier 1. the domi cant fit 6 425mm II because its a drone boat, not because its tier 2 scorp can fit cruise launcher II and 425mm II if you wanted it to with no fitting mods typhoon can fit 1400 II's and cruise II's with 1 rcu II geddon's grid is fine imo, i have no problem with having to fit 2 rcu to get tachs on, it needs a little cpu, thats all, geddon is a great ship already apoc should be able to fit 8 tachs with 1 rcu imo and you certainly should not have to fit any rcu's to get 8 megabeams on, its damage sucks ass anyway sure if you want a large rep or two aswell but not just for the guns... Originally by: Letifer Deus 6) First off, many minmatar ships have lower sensor strength than amarr. agreed, leave worrying about sensor strength and stuff until after ewar has been nerfed/fixed/changed/boosted/whatever actually happens
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 21:39:00 -
[594 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 13/06/2006 21:30:12 Originally by: Letifer Deus Not necessarily. Although the tracking is better on 75mm gats, the range is also significantly less. I bet you will find that 125mm rails are still better. It's about 3km difference in effective ranges, that should really not be a problem with an interceptor. The only real issue are webs. Originally by: Letifer Deus I've flown taranii since they came out, and not once used a nos. You cant even fit a small nos with 3x light ion 2s. You can fit one if you use electrons, but as I said earlier, a nos on a taranis is really pretty useless, as once you get in that range any frig-class target is going to die before it is useful. Well, a tech 1 frig, yes, but vs other interceptors or AF? Especially vs Amarr intys/AFs should a NOS be quite effective. Interceptors take almost no time to kill, no matter which one it is, once you get within 5.5km As far as assault frigs, yes, nos could be useful. Personally, however, I don't fit a nos because 90% of the targets I fight are frigs and other interceptors. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.13 21:42:00 -
[595 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 13/06/2006 19:00:44 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 13/06/2006 18:03:49 Originally by: Ithildin Dual Light Beam is comparable to 125mm Railgun (while better dps, fitting, and tracking, it's worse damage types for frigate combat) You never learn, do you? You again make the same mistake as last time you made such a statement - is it deliberate? You have to compare them with ship boni applied. Crusader: - 50% cap, +25% damage; Tanaris: +50% damage. Which gives us with the t2 versions of the guns and no other mods: Duallight: 0.94 DM/sec, 0.61 cap/sec, 0.13 tracking; 75mm: 1.04 DM/sec, 0.64 cap/sec, 0.13 tracking; 125mm: 1.11 DM/sec, 0.66 cap/sec, 0.085 tracking Now, the optimal range of the 75mm is only about 3/4 of the duallight, but it has a higher effective dps to make up for that. With the shipboni both guns are very much compareable. I hate to say it, but 75mm gatling rail is on the same level as 125mm gatling AC and gatling pulse, not dual light pulse. The difference is, 75mm rail is a "long range" gat. and the 125mm and gat pulse are short range. Also, you really can not compare a single gun on a taranis to a single gun on a crusader. Taranis w/ 3x 125mm rail w/ Lead s 124.25 cpu/4.67 pg remaining 57.3 DPS .133 tracking 13.5km optimal 6km falloff Crusader 61 cpu/3.56 pg remaining 64.7 DPS .203 tracking 13.125km optimal 3.6km falloff also you forgot looking the cap/s (numbers from your post) Duallight: 0.61 cap/sec * 4 (turrets) = 2.44 75mm: 0.64 cap/sec * 3 = 1.92 125mm:0.66 cap/sec * 3= 1.98 now we can look how damage we do each point of energy 125mm: 57.3 dps / 1.98 = 29,84375 dmg each 1 energy duallight: 64.7 dps / 2.44 = 26,51639 dmg each 1 energy we have less efficiency for each point of energy this means we cant repair as much as you can.
Exogene
Posted - 2006.06.13 22:20:00 -
[596 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 13/06/2006 19:00:44 I hate to say it, but 75mm gatling rail is on the same level as 125mm gatling AC and gatling pulse, not dual light pulse. The difference is, 75mm rail is a "long range" gat. and the 125mm and gat pulse are short range. Also, you really can not compare a single gun on a taranis to a single gun on a crusader. Taranis w/ 3x 125mm rail w/ Lead s 124.25 cpu/4.67 pg remaining 57.3 DPS .133 tracking 13.5km optimal 6km falloff Crusader 61 cpu/3.56 pg remaining 64.7 DPS .203 tracking 13.125km optimal 3.6km falloff So, as you can see, the dps of dual light beams on a crusader is ~13% higher than 125mm rails on a taranis. However, you also notice that the taranis has much more cpu and enough remaining PG to fit its remaining open slots with the usual modules that req. 1pg each, while the crusader is lacking in both areas. IMO, crusader needs a 25 cpu and 2 pg boost, and then I think it will be up to par. Now, as far as medium beams, I do think their PG reqs are too high. They should be lowered to about 13 pg. Certain other amarr ships and guns need tweaks as well (almost exclusively at the frig and cruiser level). The Crusader is lacking indeed, more so the Malediction. The DPS might be higher looking at it as pure DPS on something with no resistances but most ships having 60% or more EM resistance, EM being one of the most hardened resistance types beside Thermal (and EM being the primary, Thermal being secondary damage of lasers) the DPS with Dual lights will be much lower than with a 125 rail.
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 22:22:00 -
[597 ]
Originally by: Frools (had to cut short some of the quotes to get inside the char limit) Originally by: Letifer Deus 1) Lasers have a "built in" damage bonus. Yet the omen (one of the few amarr ships with a damage bonus) still gets outdamaged by just about every other cruiser at frig and cruiser level the 'built in' damage bonus is not enough imo, bs level damage is ok, geddon does pretty nasty dps when setup for it and the apoc does pants damage whatever you do, but it should be a tanking ship imo Originally by: Letifer Deus 3) I can't fit heavy neuts on my thorax seems to me heavy pulse is closer to ions and focused pulse closer to electrons do the numbers, even heavy electrons outdamage heavy pulses (just barely) its just as hard (if not harder) to fit heavy pulses on amarr cruisers as heavy neutrons on gallente cruisers and the damage in comparison is utterly **** poor, you really need heavy pulses just to compete with ions/electrons a thorax can fit full rack of ion II's, mwd and rep, Omen can just about squeeze in focused pulse + ab + rep without an rcu, at this point you're outdamage by a thorax's drones let alone his nasty ebil blasters :( ion thorax MASSIVELY outdamages a heavy pulse omen which will have no tank what so ever (talking a small rep or a 400mm plate) and the range advantage is pretty much inconsequential at frig and cruiser level, how long does it take a mwd'ing thorax or taranis to go from the optimal+falloff of heavy pulses to the optimal+falloff of ion blasters? not to mention the optimal+falloff, damage and tracking of heavy ions with Null M is better on all counts than focused pulses with conflag on an omen AND is easier to fit on a thorax i used ions + focused pulses as these are pretty much the best you can fit without completely gimping your setup the thorax has the additional advantage of going completely gank with neutrons or adding more tank with electrons, omen cant really do either with the damage output of heavy pulses and the lack of choice for cruiser pulses if heavy pulses are supposed to be equivilent to neutrons then they need an enormous damage increase (unbalanced zealot?) or neutrons need a huge nerf (who cares, they dont fit anyway right?) personally what i'd like to see is a large grid boost for omen and maller ( in the area of 150grid more base grid) and a small damage increase for both pulses wow, rambled on a bit there, amarr cruisers and frigs are what i know best tho so Originally by: Letifer Deus 5) Try fitting 6 425 rail 2s on a domi, it's also impossible. That is why they are tier 1. the domi cant fit 6 425mm II because its a drone boat, not because its tier 2 scorp can fit cruise launcher II and 425mm II if you wanted it to with no fitting mods typhoon can fit 1400 II's and cruise II's with 1 rcu II apoc should be able to fit 8 tachs with 1 rcu imo and you certainly should not have to fit any rcu's to get 8 megabeams on, its damage sucks ass anyway sure if you want a large rep or two aswell but not just for the guns... A domi can't even fit 5 425mm rail 2s w/o rcus, actually. Even so, I added up the damage of 5 425 2s and 5 'serk 2s on a domi and 6 mega beam 2s and 5 'serk 2s on a arma, and the dps is basically identical, imagine that. 8 mega beams on an apoc does about 2% less damage than a megathron with 7 425s. Yes, mega beams have less range and an apoc would need an RCU to fit an active tank, but apocs are also not supposed to be damage ships, so I can't see any complaints here as long as apocs gets a ~2000 grid increase so they CAN actually fit 8x mega beams w/o any pg booster and 8 tachs with an RCUII. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
weedmasta
Posted - 2006.06.13 22:27:00 -
[598 ]
Originally by: Sniser also you forgot looking the cap/s (numbers from your post) Duallight: 0.61 cap/sec * 4 (turrets) = 2.44 75mm: 0.64 cap/sec * 3 = 1.92 125mm:0.66 cap/sec * 3= 1.98 now we can look how damage we do each point of energy 125mm: 57.3 dps / 1.98 = 29,84375 dmg each 1 energy duallight: 64.7 dps / 2.44 = 26,51639 dmg each 1 energy we have less efficiency for each point of energy this means we cant repair as much as you can. Lol and amarr are supposed to be expert armor tankers, this is really sad __________________________________________________
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 22:27:00 -
[599 ]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 13/06/2006 22:28:24 Originally by: Sniser now we can look how damage we do each point of energy 125mm: 57.3 dps / 1.98 = 29,84375 dmg each 1 energy duallight: 64.7 dps / 2.44 = 26,51639 dmg each 1 energy we have less efficiency for each point of energy this means we cant repair as much as you can. 12.5% more cap usage and 9% large cap capacity. Boo hoo. Originally by: Exogene the DPS with Dual lights will be much lower than with a 125 rail. On armor, sure, but how many armor tanked interceptors/frigs do you run into? Some, for sure, but very few. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
weedmasta
Posted - 2006.06.13 22:27:00 -
[600 ]
Originally by: Sniser also you forgot looking the cap/s (numbers from your post) Duallight: 0.61 cap/sec * 4 (turrets) = 2.44 75mm: 0.64 cap/sec * 3 = 1.92 125mm:0.66 cap/sec * 3= 1.98 now we can look how damage we do each point of energy 125mm: 57.3 dps / 1.98 = 29,84375 dmg each 1 energy duallight: 64.7 dps / 2.44 = 26,51639 dmg each 1 energy we have less efficiency for each point of energy this means we cant repair as much as you can. Lol and amarr are supposed to be expert armor tankers, this is really sad __________________________________________________
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 22:27:00 -
[601 ]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 13/06/2006 22:28:24 Originally by: Sniser now we can look how damage we do each point of energy 125mm: 57.3 dps / 1.98 = 29,84375 dmg each 1 energy duallight: 64.7 dps / 2.44 = 26,51639 dmg each 1 energy we have less efficiency for each point of energy this means we cant repair as much as you can. 12.5% more cap usage and 9% large cap capacity. Boo hoo. Originally by: Exogene the DPS with Dual lights will be much lower than with a 125 rail. On armor, sure, but how many armor tanked interceptors/frigs do you run into? Some, for sure, but very few. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 22:33:00 -
[602 ]
Originally by: weedmasta Originally by: Sniser also you forgot looking the cap/s (numbers from your post) Duallight: 0.61 cap/sec * 4 (turrets) = 2.44 75mm: 0.64 cap/sec * 3 = 1.92 125mm:0.66 cap/sec * 3= 1.98 now we can look how damage we do each point of energy 125mm: 57.3 dps / 1.98 = 29,84375 dmg each 1 energy duallight: 64.7 dps / 2.44 = 26,51639 dmg each 1 energy we have less efficiency for each point of energy this means we cant repair as much as you can. Lol and amarr are supposed to be expert armor tankers, this is really sad Because crusaders are sooo geared towards tanking. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.13 22:33:00 -
[603 ]
Originally by: weedmasta Originally by: Sniser also you forgot looking the cap/s (numbers from your post) Duallight: 0.61 cap/sec * 4 (turrets) = 2.44 75mm: 0.64 cap/sec * 3 = 1.92 125mm:0.66 cap/sec * 3= 1.98 now we can look how damage we do each point of energy 125mm: 57.3 dps / 1.98 = 29,84375 dmg each 1 energy duallight: 64.7 dps / 2.44 = 26,51639 dmgEVE Online | EVE Insider | Forums
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.13 22:52:00 -
[604 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 13/06/2006 22:53:21 damn how i cant stand retard arguments. Ammar use more cap than gallente if you think this is wrong, you need another 4 months of playing eve. pure energy compared to firing a projectile... Also it seems ammar tanks there inties. I think we found the problem... ammar are just retards. and a big ass LOL @ the 12% biggercapusage. People are so foccused @ bonusses that they dont even notice what is actually broken. gallente have dmgbonus, ammar have this build in + cap. ok we give gallente capbonus + buildin damage so every noob will have standard +25% damage. Than ammar get a +25% damagebonus and -25% damagemod on standard guns. Fixed? Dont whine about bonnuses, whine about why your ship suddenly fails. Because i still frown upon this thread and i just see it as ammar thinking its time to whine for them again. Im convinced that small ammar guns take to much PG, but the rest..naah Also DPS isnt all, i usually like my ares better than a taranis, simply because staying outside 10 k range tends to get you killed faaaaaaaaar less, allthough dps is cap. _________________________________________________
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.13 22:59:00 -
[605 ]
Originally by: madaluap ok we give gallente capbonus + buildin damage so every noob will have standard +25% damage. Than ammar get a +25% damagebonus and -25% damagemod on standard guns. right except that lasers have less raw dps than blasters because they have more optimal, while this is fine at bs level at cruiser and especially frig level a km or 2 make NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL so when your blasters are already doing more damage than lasers at base before you apply a 50% damage bonus... the only thing that saves the crusader from being completely useless is having 4 turrets (although it lacks grid and cpu to fit them effectively Originally by: madaluap Because i still frown upon this thread and i just see it as ammar thinking its time to whine for them again. Im convinced that small ammar guns take to much PG, but the rest..naah wrong, medium guns use too much grid too and small/med guns dont do enough damage Originally by: madaluap Also DPS isnt all, i usually like my ares better than a taranis, simply because staying outside 10 k range tends to get you killed faaaaaaaaar less, allthough dps is cap. psst, i hear you can put rails on your taranis too, OMG! your post was stupid, be more constructive in future please although it really doesnt help when people post daft suggestions to 'balance' which are clearly massively overpowering...
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.13 23:14:00 -
[606 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 13/06/2006 23:16:44 Edited by: madaluap on 13/06/2006 23:16:11 Originally by: Frools Originally by: madaluap ok we give gallente capbonus + buildin damage so every noob will have standard +25% damage. Than ammar get a +25% damagebonus and -25% damagemod on standard guns. right except that lasers have less raw dps than blasters because they have more optimal, while this is fine at bs level at cruiser and especially frig level a km or 2 make NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL so when your blasters are already doing more damage than lasers at base before you apply a 50% damage bonus... the only thing that saves the crusader from being completely useless is having 4 turrets (although it lacks grid and cpu to fit them effectively Originally by: madaluap Because i still frown upon this thread and i just see it as ammar thinking its time to whine for them again. Im convinced that small ammar guns take to much PG, but the rest..naah wrong, medium guns use too much grid too and small/med guns dont do enough damage Originally by: madaluap Also DPS isnt all, i usually like my ares better than a taranis, simply because staying outside 10 k range tends to get you killed faaaaaaaaar less, allthough dps is cap. psst, i hear you can put rails on your taranis too, OMG! your post was stupid, be more constructive in future please although it really doesnt help when people post daft suggestions to 'balance' which are clearly massively overpowering... I just get fed up with so many worthless crap, stuff about how lasers can do explosive damage in (now comes the best) RL . Also your omen getting outdamaged by a thorax isnt bad, you still have more optimal, look @ ac rupture for example that thing stays out of blasterrange while nossing and rapes thorax. Also maller outtanks thorax and kills it off with nos aswell. Also putting rails on a taranis may work in small gangs, but it doesnt really work well. i can barely support 2X 125mm 2 guns, tech 2 mwd and fleeting scram with 3X caprelay. (Ares) You used better arguments than the average ammar whiner. The fact that on inty scale optimal doesnt really matter is true. Also omen in gankmode should be very close to what armageddon is in eve. Maybe give omen a optimal range bonus + rof? Bit more PG for omen, and more powergrid for abitrator aswell. I dont want ammar to be ****, but after them being UBER for ages i really dont want to go back to that. People used to fit kin/therm/explosve hardener and than damagemod or something, with EAN2 this has changed and yes maybe ammar damage needs to be altered to this, but i want to see some damn good arguments for screwing around with main damagetypes of a race... _________________________________________________
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.13 23:29:00 -
[607 ]
Originally by: madaluap I just get fed up with so many worthless crap, stuff about how lasers can do explosive damage in (now comes the best) RL . i know, me too, theres been some incredibly stupid **** posted by pro-amarr people in this thread Originally by: madaluap Also your omen getting outdamaged by a thorax isnt bad, you still have more optimal no its not, not at all what IS bad is getting outdamaged at the same range by a thorax that hasnt had to gimp its setup ions + null M > focused pulses + conflag M and omen that can fit 4 (or 5, pretty please ) heavy pulse II, med nos and say 5 lights would be a decent match for a thorax, its still going to get owned if you try to go toe to toe with 5 heavy ions and 5 medium drones but its definately an improvement how would you feel if you could only fit electrons and light drones on your rax? Originally by: madaluap Allthough you used a bit better arguments than the average ammar whiner. The fact that on inty scale optimal doesnt really matter is true. Also omen in gankmode should be very close to what armageddon is in eve. Maybe give omen a optimal range bonus + rof? Bit more PG for omen, and more powergrid for abitrator aswell. yes an omen in gankmode should be close to what a geddon is, it isnt, not by a long shot optimal bonus wouldnt really help, especially if it replaced the cap bonus becuase your cap would last about 20 seconds the ranges involved with cruiser and frig combat are just far too small for the higher optimal on lasers to be as much of an advantage as it should be look at the thorax vs omen example again a fight starting at 15k, neither ship can hit with most damage ammo, he unleasehes drones on you and is already doing as much damage as your turrets can do at optimal about 5s later the thorax has mwd'd into range of your lasers, you web him, he webs you, about 5 seconds after that hes drifted into his blasters range and is doing nearly double your dps, you're fried and thats just if hes using am/void, if he fits null he can hit harder at about the same range as your focused pulse with conflag at bs level this isnt such a problem as bs move much slower, gives you time to catch up on the extra damage a blasterthron is going to do once he gets into range, this is fine by me but it just doesnt work at cruiser and frig level Originally by: madaluap I dont want ammar to be ****, but after them being UBER for ages i really dont want to go back to that. People used to fit kin/therm/explosve hardener and than damagemod or something, with EAN2 this has changed and yes maybe ammar damage needs to be altered to this, but i want to see some damn good arguments for screwing around with main damagetypes of a race... a slight shift to thermal damage for crystals would be good, i dont want to see any new damage types introduced and dont really want to see lasers shifted completely to primary thermal either
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.13 23:46:00 -
[608 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 13/06/2006 23:47:42 Yeh i see your issue with omen and thorax. They both are the damageships of each race, thats why we are comparing those 2. IMO (im not gonna throw around to much with numbers here, people tend to go beserk on them) A ganksetup omen (after ubermada patch) should be able to fit: 4Xheavy pulse 2 1Xmed nos 10mn ab 2 web disrupter small armor rep2 3Xdamagemod 800mm plate 5X hobglobin 2 (sorry it just isnt a droneboat) This should deal about 70% of the ion+med drone setup. If omen knows he is facing a thorax he would fit dual web+scram, less sliding effect for thorax to get into optimal. Because thorax has to get into range, we end up dealing same raw damage and the thorax cant carry a plate without rcu, but omen does have a plate it would be pretty even. Problem is, the omen doesnt deal 70% of that damage, most ammar kids would say booooost heavy pulse damage. But damn has anyone ever thought about the ubertank maller that still would be dealing whooping damage or dont mention the zealot with better pulses. Omen needs more damage and it has to come from heavy pulses but how, i dont know. _________________________________________________
Serret
Posted - 2006.06.13 23:52:00 -
[609 ]
Edited by: Serret on 13/06/2006 23:53:58 Originally by: Frools look at the thorax vs omen example again a fight starting at 15k, neither ship can hit with most damage ammo, he unleasehes drones on you and is already doing as much damage as your turrets can do at optimal about 5s later the thorax has mwd'd into range of your lasers, you web him, he webs you, about 5 seconds after that hes drifted into his blasters range and is doing nearly double your dps, you're fried Wouldn't you be drifting AWAY from him just as much as he's drifting TOWARD you? In fact, if it's a problem, wouldn't you keep your AB on going away from him? --<Deathwing> just say Amarr pwn cause DW is Amarr
Meridius
Posted - 2006.06.13 23:56:00 -
[610 ]
Originally by: madaluap Also your omen getting outdamaged by a thorax isnt bad, you still have more optimal, look @ ac rupture for example that thing stays out of blasterrange while nossing and rapes thorax. Also maller outtanks thorax and kills it off with nos aswell. Please stop with the bull****. Look at this graph. Thorax does more damage with it's long range t2 ammo then an Omen does with high dmg t2 ammo So ofc, the Thorax can even opt for even more wtfpwn damage. The Omen is a POS, there is no reason to use it unless your **** poor and can't afford better, EOD. - _____
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.13 23:57:00 -
[611 ]
Originally by: Serret Edited by: Serret on 13/06/2006 23:53:58 Originally by: Frools look at the thorax vs omen example again a fight starting at 15k, neither ship can hit with most damage ammo, he unleasehes drones on you and is already doing as much damage as your turrets can do at optimal about 5s later the thorax has mwd'd into range of your lasers, you web him, he webs you, about 5 seconds after that hes drifted into his blasters range and is doing nearly double your dps, you're fried Wouldn't you be drifting AWAY from him just as much as he's drifting TOWARD you? In fact, if it's a problem, wouldn't you keep your AB on going away from him? Nah he would get raped and im saying this as a thorax pilot _________________________________________________
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.14 00:04:00 -
[612 ]
Here is my wish list in something close to what I think is my order of importance, which is to say ignore the order. 1. Change the thermal/em ratio, don't make thermal primary, but make some of the mid and short range close to let's say 60/40 or 55/45. 2. Fix fitting problems on small and medium guns, and perhaps mega beams (for geddon mostly). 3. Take a good hard look at the tanks of Amarr ships currently, is laser cap use hurting tanks? Do improved enemy tanks and damage from better fittings making it too hard for Amarr to hold out? I like the idea of cutting cap use to levels close to what the ships' bonuses gives, but increase the powergrid on lasers and Amarr ships. That would keep lasers mostly Amarr while freeing up the crap bonus. 4. Perhaps replace the cap bonus with something that fits the roll of the ship so they might could win with the right setup, change whatever ships this would make too powerful so that things remain balanced. Those that want to make the Geddon short range and the Apoc long range, I say look at other battleships. Most teir 2 (and maybe the teir 1) ships have a viable close and long range setup, don't settle for for half of what they can do, unless you want to make these the kings of their ranges. 5. Look at slot lay outs of smaller ships and their roles, if the crusader needs another mid to keep up with other ships, give it that mid. Might want to make Amarr ships harder to jam since they lack the mid slots to mount an effective counter. 6. Fix our tech 2 ships, half of them are next to useless, they are just jr. versions of the other ships (how could anyone think Khanid ships are ok ). I say make them armor tanking missile boats, it would at least make them different. If you slowly make some of these changes you could find a nice balanced role for Amarr ships. If no changes are made, look at NPC resits, and I will pray that the tier 3 BS be a drone boat so I can do other damage types all while training Caldari.
Meridius
Posted - 2006.06.14 00:05:00 -
[613 ]
Originally by: madaluap dont mention the zealot with better pulses. Zealot is the 5th most damaging HAC, 5th. It was a 1 trick pony and damage was it's game, now it's just ****.Proof The Ishtar can tank better in a pvp viable setup, can EW harder and can do up to 55% more dps. Yay for balance. Sigh, another Gallente afraid of losing his overpowered grip... - _____
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.14 00:11:00 -
[614 ]
Edited by: Spartan239 on 14/06/2006 00:15:56 Edited by: Spartan239 on 14/06/2006 00:11:14 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: madaluap dont mention the zealot with better pulses. Deimos is the most damaging HAC. It is and always has been a 1 trick pony and damage is it's game shame its ****. The Ishtar can tank better in a pvp viable setup,but will be alot less uber after the the ew change/nerf Yay for balance. Sigh, another Gallente afraid of losing his overpowered grip... oh and if you wanna compare vaga dps might wanna do 5x220's or 5xd180's because noone would fit that setup so I cant see why it means anything (imo posting unviable setups is just pointless) Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Meridius
Posted - 2006.06.14 00:42:00 -
[615 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 oh and if you wanna compare vaga dps might wanna do 5x220's or 5xd180's because noone would fit that setup so I cant see why it means anything (imo posting unviable setups is just pointless) It does like 2% less dps with 220mm's. Oh noes. - _____
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.14 08:20:00 -
[616 ]
Edited by: Godar Marak on 14/06/2006 08:20:47 Originally by: Asuzke Mitsugi Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Asuzke Mitsugi Boohoo I don't know how to use EM/Therm to my advantage ...........and how do you do that exactly? Read quote below... Originally by: Asuzke Mitsugi get a clue. NO. You come in here posting your rubbish, no tell me..... How exactly do you use em/thermal to your advantage?
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.14 08:45:00 -
[617 ]
Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Spartan239 oh and if you wanna compare vaga dps might wanna do 5x220's or 5xd180's because noone would fit that setup so I cant see why it means anything (imo posting unviable setups is just pointless) It does like 2% less dps with 220mm's. Oh noes. nvm read 2 heavy launchers wtb:glasses Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.14 10:48:00 -
[618 ]
Originally by: Serret Wouldn't you be drifting AWAY from him just as much as he's drifting TOWARD you? In fact, if it's a problem, wouldn't you keep your AB on going away from him? no because he'd be doing about 1k/s at the point you web him, more than enough to get into blaster range and yes you would ab away, but that will put you at about 500m/s he'll still get into blaster range
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.14 11:01:00 -
[619 ]
I dont see how the devs or anyone else can see amarr or gallante as being balanced. Gallante are so overpowered with all their i-win ships, amarr is so last year. Oh but its ok for amarr to suck .... we dont use ammo :/
DanMck
Posted - 2006.06.14 12:33:00 -
[620 ]
Originally by: BirdBleed we dont use ammo :/ yep we don't and it looks like it's not worth it exp damage crystals reduce em damage (skill based at worst) change all crystals options to change all types in one click (takes same time as doing it manually , so no boost just more time to access fight then changing crystals) lower beam grid fitting increase overall cap for ships review of midslot layout for all ships possible ship bonus for fitting armour plates ? my 10p
Cosmo Raata
Posted - 2006.06.14 14:29:00 -
[621 ]
If Meridius says something sucks or is uber, he is right, period/end of story. He's been around a long time & never lies about stuff in regards to their abilities. Need a good ship setup, he can tell you, need a straight answer about anything, he will tell you. Point is, dont argue with the man, he's right, you're wrong.
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.14 15:35:00 -
[622 ]
Originally by: BirdBleed Gallante are so overpowered with all their i-win ships, amarr is so last year. List em (I know the domi/ishtar are uber but after the ecm nerf/change they theyll be meh) Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.14 15:57:00 -
[623 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 14/06/2006 16:01:58 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: madaluap Also your omen getting outdamaged by a thorax isnt bad, you still have more optimal, look @ ac rupture for example that thing stays out of blasterrange while nossing and rapes thorax. Also maller outtanks thorax and kills it off with nos aswell. Please stop with the bull****. Look at this graph. Thorax does more damage with it's long range t2 ammo then an Omen does with high dmg t2 ammo So ofc, the Thorax can even opt for even more wtfpwn damage. The Omen is a POS, there is no reason to use it unless your **** poor and can't afford better, EOD. When did i bull****, you just misunderstood me (read my second post after that one). Omen should do less damage than a thorax, thats what i said. Its NOT BAD to get outdamaged, it is bad when a damageboat gets raped by another damageboat all the time. If you would read my second post with the omen setup you would understand. DAMAGE ISNT ALL, so dumb And bohoo to your zealot getting outdamaged bohoo i only have the 5e spot vs a TOTAL CRAP isthar setup featuring NEUTRON and ogre 2 with maxed out skills. Also the fact that you CAN FIT a 1600mm plate + your BIGGEST guns and deimos cant even fit a nos with ion is offcourse very underpowered isnt it. Because hell ye!! deimos does more damage. damage is such a stupid way to calculate balance. If omen could fit the setup i posted it would be able to *****a thorax, with its 1 nos and 800mm and still gankmode. Would be a challenge! Damage isnt comming back PERIOD, tanking is king of eve now. CCP and nearly everyone in eve wants longer battles. Dont bring ubergank back, but gank+plate and small armortank should be king now. edit; On that graphic the omen is using foccused pulse, lets imagine that omen got more grid (it needs more grid) and calculate the damage than + remember the 800mm plate the thorax cant fit. I think you would be pleased with the results. I know this is kinda silly, but can you do a graph without drones, I know i know a thorax pilot without drones should pod himself 5X but still. Just out of curiosity. _________________________________________________
Serret
Posted - 2006.06.14 16:16:00 -
[624 ]
Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Serret Wouldn't you be drifting AWAY from him just as much as he's drifting TOWARD you? In fact, if it's a problem, wouldn't you keep your AB on going away from him? Nah he would get raped and im saying this as a thorax pilot Meaning what exactly, that trying to keep out of a thorax' optimal is not useful or possible? --<Deathwing> just say Amarr pwn cause DW is Amarr
Alzion
Posted - 2006.06.14 17:26:00 -
[625 ]
Originally by: Serret Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Serret Wouldn't you be drifting AWAY from him just as much as he's drifting TOWARD you? In fact, if it's a problem, wouldn't you keep your AB on going away from him? Nah he would get raped and im saying this as a thorax pilot Meaning what exactly, that trying to keep out of a thorax' optimal is not useful or possible? Meaning that any cruiser with dual webs is going to give a thorax a rough time. But for most situations close range cruisers need the slots for AB and scramblers. Please use a realistic situation next time. --------------------------------------------- I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci
Serret
Posted - 2006.06.14 17:39:00 -
[626 ]
Originally by: Alzion Meaning that any cruiser with dual webs is going to give a thorax a rough time. But for most situations close range cruisers need the slots for AB and scramblers. Please use a realistic situation next time. Hang on, what is unrealistic about another cruiser trying to AB/web its way away from a blaster thorax? --<Deathwing> just say Amarr pwn cause DW is Amarr
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.14 18:09:00 -
[627 ]
Originally by: Serret Originally by: Alzion Meaning that any cruiser with dual webs is going to give a thorax a rough time. But for most situations close range cruisers need the slots for AB and scramblers. Please use a realistic situation next time. Hang on, what is unrealistic about another cruiser trying to AB/web its way away from a blaster thorax? That its just very, very tough. A thorax sliding in with 1 km/s isnt going to stop very fast. Not saying it cant be done, but its very tough. Dual web would be better but that means giving up or a scrambler or a ab. Still saying this as a thorax pilot. Only ship that raped me using range was a rupture but those things are so fast because they pack a mwd. _________________________________________________
General Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.06.14 18:31:00 -
[628 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 13/06/2006 23:03:23 Edited by: madaluap on 13/06/2006 22:53:21 damn how i cant stand retard arguments. Ammar use more cap than gallente if you think this is wrong, you need another 4 months of playing eve. pure energy compared to firing a projectile... Also it seems ammar tanks there inties. I think we found the problem... ammar are just retards. and a big ass LOL @ the 12% biggercapusage. People are so foccused @ bonusses that they dont even notice what is actually broken. gallente have dmgbonus, ammar have this build in + cap. ok we give gallente capbonus + buildin damage so every noob will have standard +25% damage. Than ammar get a +25% damagebonus and -25% damagemod on standard guns. Fixed? Dont whine about bonnuses, whine about why your ship suddenly fails. I still frown upon this thread and i just see it as ammar thinking its time to whine for them again. Im convinced that small ammar guns take to much PG, but the rest..naah Also DPS isnt all, i usually like my ares better than a taranis, simply because staying outside 10 k range tends to get you killed faaaaaaaaar less, allthough dps is cap. I thought that you learned your lesson but here you are again . Dear madaluap you need to : Go to school and learn to READ & WRITE Fly ALL the Amarr ship befeore you speak about them . And fly them in PVP . Untill you do so please ducktape your loud mouth since u can't keep it shut. And if you hate retarded argumets i guess you hate yourself a lot .
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.14 19:11:00 -
[629 ]
madaluap are you stil here,isnt it bed time?
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.14 19:32:00 -
[630 ]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 14/06/2006 19:32:24 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Spartan239 oh and if you wanna compare vaga dps might wanna do 5x220's or 5xd180's because noone would fit that setup so I cant see why it means anything (imo posting unviable setups is just pointless) It does like 2% less dps with 220mm's. Oh noes. Ok. I just realised you Created the Vanguard movie. MAKE ANOTHER ONE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.06.14 20:15:00 -
[631 ]
Originally by: Madaluap Omen should do less damage than a thorax, thats what i said. Its NOT BAD to get outdamaged, it is bad when a damageboat gets raped by another damageboat all the time. Why should it? The *ONLY* thing the Omen is meant for damage. And it really can't even do that without being completely gimped. The rax has more mids, more armor, more shields, MUCH bigger dronebay, easier to fit, and more DPS than the ship whose only purpose is to be a gunboat. And quite honestly your second proposition directly contradicts the first. Originally by: Madaluap Damage isnt comming back PERIOD, tanking is king of eve now. CCP and nearly everyone in eve wants longer battles. Dont bring ubergank back, but gank+plate and small armortank should be king now. Agree with not bringing Ubergank back, but we have ships meant for high dps that can't do anything else. And now they can't do high dps. So what are they good for? Answer = Toting around your equipment to fit out your new Gallente/Caldari/Matari ships. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.14 21:34:00 -
[632 ]
madalup--- I want to ask you a few questions. These are things I honestly want to know, you are the most vocal critic of Amarr changes so far and I want to understand where you're coming from. This isn't about insulting you or flaming you, it's about knowing what experiences have lead to your current opinions. 1. What faction do you fly most of the time? Is there a difference between your PVE and PVE choices? 2. What class of ships do you fly? If you would please list them going from most often to least often. 3. What situations have you seen Amarr ships performing well enough to be considered balanced? I'm looking for more than fleet battles which are only part of what Battleships do. I like to know what cruiser, frigate, AF, and HAC battles you've seen that makes you think Amarr are balanced? Please keep any accounts to post Blood Lines. 4. What you you consider a good close range and long range setup for the Apoc, the Geddon, the Zealot, and other ships you think work well. What setups do you think they could beat a Gallente, Caldari, and Minnie setup close to the same as the Amarr and with similar SP. All in all, I am hoping to learn more about your in game experiences. Out of game theories and number crunching are nice, but I would like to know what you have seen.
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.14 22:05:00 -
[633 ]
Originally by: Aemilus Brutus madalup--- 1. What faction do you fly most of the time? Is there a difference between your PVE and PVE choices? 2. What class of ships do you fly? If you would please list them going from most often to least often. His sig is a big give away.
Lavondyss
Posted - 2006.06.15 00:35:00 -
[634 ]
I would love to drag out a bunch of stats to support the much delayed attention to my race's ships. My lovely face is all the Devs should need to get going and make up for lost time.
Ehker Gerete
Posted - 2006.06.15 00:54:00 -
[635 ]
What sucks is that the Omen is like... the friggin best looking t1 cruiser in game and it sucks like crap. --------------My ideas on balancing nosferatu http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=351
Barron IX
Posted - 2006.06.15 01:52:00 -
[636 ]
Amarr = Ford Pinto of the Galaxy They should give Amarr pilots free isk for flying those crappy ships.
Methuselar
Posted - 2006.06.15 02:03:00 -
[637 ]
Edited by: Methuselar on 15/06/2006 02:05:18 Originally by: Barron IX Amarr = Ford Pinto of the Galaxy They should give Amarr pilots free isk for flying those crappy ships. As to the background of EVE. Amarr tend to be those of low tech. Yes Amarr ship truely is. But how could religion and slavery help Amarrians? Maybe this... Since Amarrians have slaves on their ship to take care of the power core Amarr pilots should get racial PG and CPU bonus, Unlike others, Amarr ships are affected by negative influences of the BG. Will no positive influence.
Exogene
Posted - 2006.06.15 02:14:00 -
[638 ]
Originally by: Barron IX Amarr = Ford Pinto of the Galaxy They should give Amarr pilots free isk for flying those crappy ships. I was thinking more inline with Lada but Ford Pinto works too i guess p.s. where is my free isk
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.15 02:20:00 -
[639 ]
Edited by: Aemilus Brutus on 15/06/2006 02:23:14 Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Aemilus Brutus madalup--- 1. What faction do you fly most of the time? Is there a difference between your PVE and PVE choices? 2. What class of ships do you fly? If you would please list them going from most often to least often. His sig is a big give away. I'm not blind, I saw his sig. I just want him to state it, and to make sure he flys Gallente for both PVE and PVP. And to know if he has first hand Amarr experience. He is very vocal, and he may have very good reasons, and tons of experience to backup his opposition to an Amarr boost. Also does he fly the t1 or t2 version of the ship in his sig (or is it just there because it looks cool, which it really does), what else does the guy fly. All would help me understand where he is coming from on this issue. I have Amarr experience from the perspective of a guy that fairly recently worked my way up through Amarr ships, building core fitting skills along the way. I started focusing on getting the skills for t2 guns when I began to get frustrated. I switched to Caldari and was amazed at the difference even at low skills. Now my Apoc and Geddon only leave the hanger for speeding through level 3 missions, and for messing around, never serious combat. Gallente AFs and interceptors are my next goal (well maybe after production eff 5). That's my story, I want to know his so I can try and see why he thinks Amarr are ok.
Methuselar
Posted - 2006.06.15 02:54:00 -
[640 ]
Edited by: Methuselar on 15/06/2006 02:55:52 I will take 10 slaves board my Omen with me as ship crew. Among them: 1 navigation chief mate: Ship agility bonus 10% 4 gunners: Can shift among 3 function: painter/tracking/passivetargeting 2 power core administrator: PG bonus 5%, cap recharge bonus 5% 1 mega-computer operator: CPU bonus 5% 2 fuel regulator: speed bonus 5% haha~~
Barron IX
Posted - 2006.06.15 03:53:00 -
[641 ]
Please sign my thread. We need to send a clear message to CCP that Amarr ships are no longer viable.PETITION thx
Exiled One
Posted - 2006.06.15 05:43:00 -
[642 ]
22 pages of whine and no reply from a dev, no? Well you think it's ******* fun to have 92.5% clean em resistance on minmatar t2 ships and 69-74% with 1 adaptive energized t2 (ONE bloody energized adaptive nano friggin membrane) on any ship with a clean EM resistance of 60%. Good job.
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.15 07:24:00 -
[643 ]
Originally by: Exiled One 22 pages of whine and no reply from a dev, no? Well you think it's ******* fun to have 92.5% clean em resistance on minmatar t2 ships and 69-74% with 1 adaptive energized t2 (ONE bloody energized adaptive nano friggin membrane) on any ship with a clean EM resistance of 60%. Good job. What damage does the minimatar t2 ammo do? on your second point yea the uber em res you get with enams its good but then how exactly do you wanna balace it because exp cryastals are not the way to go Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
G Dabak
Posted - 2006.06.15 08:17:00 -
[644 ]
Originally by: Exiled One 22 pages of whine and no reply from a dev, no? Tux said that he doesn't like to reply to threads because it contaminates them. He probably prefers that people continue their original argument instead of quote his post for 4 pages. Hopefully all the suggestions of explosive crystals didn't make him close the thread instantly and never come back.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.15 09:51:00 -
[645 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 on your second point yea the uber em res you get with enams its good but then how exactly do you wanna balace it because exp cryastals are not the way to go Well, something has to be done, the problem won't go away. A first step would be to give the crystals more thermal than em damage. It won't solve the issue, but going to the 2nd highest resistance from the 1st highest is an improvement nontheless. The real problem is in the game mechanics, people armor tank in PvP usually because med slots are too important to be wasted on shield tanking. Changing that is not really a realistic option. The only "real" solution I see is to re-nerf passive tanking. Even ignoring the laser issues caused by that, it seems to be somewhat too powerful - 3 *passive* modules and a moderate skilltime investment dong the same work as 4 *active* modules?
DanMck
Posted - 2006.06.15 09:58:00 -
[646 ]
Originally by: Exiled One 22 pages of whine and no reply from a dev, no? Well you think it's ******* fun to have 92.5% clean em resistance on minmatar t2 ships and 69-74% with 1 adaptive energized t2 (ONE bloody energized adaptive nano friggin membrane) on any ship with a clean EM resistance of 60%. Good job. i found this out the hard way
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.15 10:17:00 -
[647 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 15/06/2006 10:21:37 The fact that most people only care about DPS makes me sick and the last pages only have been about that. Also i do not wish to make ammar suck, its just that i flew ammar for a while in the fast and killed off so many ships doing dumb F1-F7 that i actually thought i could pvp, nothing was less true when i jumped into a megathron and started pvping in that ship. What i do/dont support: 1. explosive crystals, c'mon just think it over gamebalance would die. 2. Maller sucks it doesnt have enough dmg!11!, maller is a great pvp ship, it will kill a thorax, the uberdps boat. Tanking is its power. 3. omen needs more grid i have said this again and again omen needs more grid 4. same for arbitrator (onoes mada has actually flown ammar) 5. PG requirments on medium (small) guns need to be downed. A ship like the omen is a dps ship, but than CCP went the tanking way and gank was a thing of the past. What i proposed was giving the omen about 70% of the damage of a thorax, but with more optimal. IF the thing can use heavy pulse 2 lasers it should come close to the ion blasters and tech 2 drones of the thorax. Because the ion thorax doesnt carry a 800mm plate , but the omen does that means you would have some serieus problems on hands as a thorax pilot and not to mention the omen would be better for camping because of instadmg. Arbitrator only needs a bit more PG, so it can compete with vexor. I just get anoyed by seeing plenty of pilots, claiming @ zealots not doing enough dps. Tottaly forgeting about its optimal, its ability to fit a 1600mm and largest weapon class . I started flying gallente a while ago when ammar was teh pwn, now throug some flavour of the month changes gallente suddenly pwn. Nerf ecm, nerf nos and we'll see what we end up with. /edit: I really dont care about personal insults, i really dont. Besides EAM 2 stack ok? What does that mean, thats means that a 25% resistance bonus is actually a hell lot better than fitting a maxed out EAM2. _________________________________________________
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.15 10:37:00 -
[648 ]
Originally by: madaluap What i proposed was giving the omen about 70% of the damage of a thorax, but with more optimal. IF the thing can use heavy pulse 2 lasers it should come close to the ion blasters and tech 2 drones of the thorax. Because the ion thorax doesnt carry a 800mm plate , but the omen does that means you would have some serieus problems on hands as a thorax pilot and not to mention the omen would be better for camping because of instadmg. except heavy electrons + 5 mediums outdamages heavy pulse + 5 lights so the thorax can fit an 800mm and still do more damage frig and cruiser lasers need a small damage boost and omen and zealot could do with 5th turret slot, that probably wont happen though Originally by: madaluap I just get anoyed by seeing plenty of pilots, claiming @ zealots not doing enough dps. Tottaly forgeting about its optimal, its ability to fit a 1600mm and largest weapon class . to fit a 1600mm plate you have to drop to focused pulse actually and then you dont quite have the grid for med nos, med rep II, abII you have to drop one of them or use named/faction rep
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.15 10:53:00 -
[649 ]
Originally by: madaluap What i do/dont support: 1. explosive crystals, c'mon just think it over gamebalance would die. i dont see why not. if its such a gamebreaker then why is caldari and minamtar not breaking the game? if added properly it would work Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Tenpenny Six
Posted - 2006.06.15 11:14:00 -
[650 ]
Lorette
Posted - 2006.06.15 11:30:00 -
[651 ]
I say give them exp crystals then exp suddenly becomes the most commonly used dmg type instead of therm, then ppl will tank exp the most and i can do more dmg
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.15 11:31:00 -
[652 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 15/06/2006 11:32:02 Originally by: Frools Originally by: madaluap What i proposed was giving the omen about 70% of the damage of a thorax, but with more optimal. IF the thing can use heavy pulse 2 lasers it should come close to the ion blasters and tech 2 drones of the thorax. Because the ion thorax doesnt carry a 800mm plate , but the omen does that means you would have some serieus problems on hands as a thorax pilot and not to mention the omen would be better for camping because of instadmg. except heavy electrons + 5 mediums outdamages heavy pulse + 5 lights so the thorax can fit an 800mm and still do more damage frig and cruiser lasers need a small damage boost and omen and zealot could do with 5th turret slot, that probably wont happen though Originally by: madaluap I just get anoyed by seeing plenty of pilots, claiming @ zealots not doing enough dps. Tottaly forgeting about its optimal, its ability to fit a 1600mm and largest weapon class . to fit a 1600mm plate you have to drop to focused pulse actually and then you dont quite have the grid for med nos, med rep II, abII you have to drop one of them or use named/faction rep Well try fitting a 1600mm on a deimos, think you will have to drop everything you fit. Fit 5X heavy electron and thats it. But well who cares, nobody flies hacs in pvp anyway, last zealots i saw were whoring lvl 4 missions or doing complex. _________________________________________________
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.15 11:42:00 -
[653 ]
thats a problem with the deimos and theres already a huge thread for that i was just saying your claim that zealot can fit 1600mm and full rack of biggest guns is not really true
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.15 11:48:00 -
[654 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 15/06/2006 11:53:10 Originally by: Xendie Originally by: madaluap What i do/dont support: 1. explosive crystals, c'mon just think it over gamebalance would die. i dont see why not. if its such a gamebreaker then why is caldari and minamtar not breaking the game? if added properly it would work Whats properly? Give them low damageoutput with explosive and ammar would wine that it doesnt make a diffence, give them higher damageouput and it would be like: F1-F7 shield gone, reload, F1-F7 armor gone boom, no other race would be able to match that. Minmatar have relativly low dps because they have coloured damage, caldari aswell because they have tank+multi coloured damage. But it will never happen, its a wrong "fix" changing all ammar ships like that, dont forget npc and such. Angels are minmatar and deal mostly explosive+other damage. Would be weird if sansha start dealing that kind of damage. Ammar simply have EM+therm damage and yes its true because of EAN2 this sucks now. But try to find a fix around this instead of changing damagetypes of a race. _________________________________________________
Hey You
Posted - 2006.06.15 12:51:00 -
[655 ]
Edited by: Hey You on 15/06/2006 12:50:56 FFS, explosive crystals would be the wrong way to go. Change the ratio of EM/Thermal to more even, or Thermal being the primary. And boost the baisc damage output on all amarr guns by a touch. Just a little bit. ------------------------------
Angus McLein
Posted - 2006.06.15 12:55:00 -
[656 ]
I would prefer kinetic. Any wtf? Why would we boost the ratio of EM and Thermal? There the most tanked damage type in the game. I dont want anything to do with EM or Thermal for a long time.
Jaketh Ivanes
Posted - 2006.06.15 12:56:00 -
[657 ]
Originally by: Hey You Edited by: Hey You on 15/06/2006 12:50:56 FFS, explosive crystals would be the wrong way to go. Change the ratio of EM/Thermal to more even, or Thermal being the primary. And boost the baisc damage output on all amarr guns by a touch. Just a little bit. Nah, don't change towards Therm.. gonna look to much like gallente. Em is fine tbh, it gives the Amarr a spice that would otherwise be thrown out. Basic damage increase.. yeah, that would be good. But one of the advantages of flying amarr, is their vecility with weapon fitting (not on omen tho). An Apoc doesn't lose much by fitting hybrid or projectiles, because its bonus isn't geared towards the weapon, more towards its capacitor. Same goes with the Maller. I like Amarr the way they are. Perhaps the other races should get a slight nerf? I don't think so.
Vishnupriya Sarasvati
Posted - 2006.06.15 13:46:00 -
[658 ]
What if they were to simply lower the capacitor use that lasers have by a great deal, and replace the bonus most Amarrian ships have to laser cap use with something more befitting those ships? For damage ships, you could replace it with damage or ROF bonuses.. for tanking ships without resistance bonuses, you could perhaps give a resistance bonus of some kind.
Exiled One
Posted - 2006.06.15 14:03:00 -
[659 ]
Originally by: Hey You Edited by: Hey You on 15/06/2006 12:50:56 FFS, explosive crystals would be the wrong way to go. Change the ratio of EM/Thermal to more even, or Thermal being the primary. And boost the baisc damage output on all amarr guns by a touch. Just a little bit. QFT. That's the ONLY thing that MUST be done. Just change the bloody crystals ! And quafe boys need to **** off from this thread. We know what a bloody megathron or a thorax is capable of, you dont know **** about mallers and apocs.
Exogene
Posted - 2006.06.15 14:18:00 -
[660 ]
Originally by: madaluap But well who cares, nobody flies hacs in pvp anyway, last zealots i saw were whoring lvl 4 missions or doing complex. You really don't know what you are talking about
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.15 14:46:00 -
[661 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 15/06/2006 14:49:42 Originally by: Exogene Originally by: madaluap But well who cares, nobody flies hacs in pvp anyway, last zealots i saw were whoring lvl 4 missions or doing complex. You really don't know what you are talking about lol yeh i do, nobody flies hacs in pvp exept: 1. alliance bears 2. rich carebears, but he! they are carebears 3. You i guess? And i mean flying them, not being ganged up with 35 other hacs slaying tech 1 cruisers, while having a full rack of stabs... _________________________________________________
Exiled One
Posted - 2006.06.15 16:09:00 -
[662 ]
Edited by: Exiled One on 15/06/2006 16:10:50 Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 15/06/2006 14:49:42 Originally by: Exogene Originally by: madaluap But well who cares, nobody flies hacs in pvp anyway, last zealots i saw were whoring lvl 4 missions or doing complex. You really don't know what you are talking about lol yeh i do, nobody flies hacs in pvp exept: 1. alliance bears 2. rich carebears, but he! they are carebears 3. You i guess? And i mean flying them, not being ganged up with 35 other hacs slaying tech 1 cruisers, while having a full rack of stabs... Then you talk from experience, troll. edit: It's not our bloody problem that you dont have the isk for buy a ******* deimos after the blasters got 'boosted'. So, shoo, go now, troll.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.15 16:39:00 -
[663 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 15/06/2006 11:53:10 Originally by: Xendie Originally by: madaluap What i do/dont support: 1. explosive crystals, c'mon just think it over gamebalance would die. i dont see why not. if its such a gamebreaker then why is caldari and minamtar not breaking the game? if added properly it would work Whats properly? Give them low damageoutput with explosive and ammar would wine that it doesnt make a diffence, give them higher damageouput and it would be like: F1-F7 shield gone, reload, F1-F7 armor gone boom, no other race would be able to match that. Minmatar have relativly low dps because they have coloured damage, caldari aswell because they have tank+multi coloured damage. But it will never happen, its a wrong "fix" changing all ammar ships like that, dont forget npc and such. Angels are minmatar and deal mostly explosive+other damage. Would be weird if sansha start dealing that kind of damage. Ammar simply have EM+therm damage and yes its true because of EAN2 this sucks now. But try to find a fix around this instead of changing damagetypes of a race. thats why this thread is on its 23rd page now, we are trying to discuss different avenues. and your input is not input its crying and whining of the extreme kind, isnt it your bedtime soon? as you would have seen in this thread (if you had read it) you would see that the problems go far beyond just poor dmg output. and adding the explosive crystals would solve that if tweaked properly. as for your fears of ammo doing EM+Explosive have a look at the EMP ammo for minmatar, it havent broken the game yet and yes ive seen 2 tempests and one mega offloading one volley each and blow up a raven. another ammo suggestion has been to swap the primary dmg from EM to Thermal wich is not a bad idea. other suggestions have been to tweak the bonus for the amarr ships in general and some specifics. so maudalup discuss or go to bed just dont ramble on and cry pls. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.15 16:42:00 -
[664 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 15/06/2006 14:49:42 Originally by: Exogene Originally by: madaluap But well who cares, nobody flies hacs in pvp anyway, last zealots i saw were whoring lvl 4 missions or doing complex. You really don't know what you are talking about lol yeh i do, nobody flies hacs in pvp exept: 1. alliance bears 2. rich carebears, but he! they are carebears 3. You i guess? And i mean flying them, not being ganged up with 35 other hacs slaying tech 1 cruisers, while having a full rack of stabs... i have flown sacri,zealots,curse's,pilgrim's and still do when i feel like it on my other account. on this one i fly cerberus,rook's and falcon's and im no "alliance bear" or "rich carebear" i just try to use those tools when its needed and dont go on suicide runs with them. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.15 16:43:00 -
[665 ]
btw... i fly the gallente hacs and recons also and enjoy them much Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Stamm
Posted - 2006.06.15 16:47:00 -
[666 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 15/06/2006 14:49:42 Originally by: Exogene Originally by: madaluap But well who cares, nobody flies hacs in pvp anyway, last zealots i saw were whoring lvl 4 missions or doing complex. You really don't know what you are talking about lol yeh i do, nobody flies hacs in pvp exept: 1. alliance bears 2. rich carebears, but he! they are carebears 3. You i guess? And i mean flying them, not being ganged up with 35 other hacs slaying tech 1 cruisers, while having a full rack of stabs... You don't know what you're talking about. There's plenty of HACs being flown around solo for PvP. In fact I think a lot of HAC pilots prefer solo, since nobody else in their T1 cruiser lets you down and costs you 250mil.
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.15 17:09:00 -
[667 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 15/06/2006 10:32:04 What i do/dont support: 1. explosive crystals, c'mon just think it over gamebalance would die. 2. Maller sucks it doesnt have enough dmg!11!, maller is a great pvp ship, it will kill a thorax, the uberdps boat. Tanking is its power. 3. omen needs more grid i have said this again and again omen needs more grid 4. same for arbitrator (onoes mada has actually flown ammar) 5. PG requirments on medium (small) guns need to be downed. A ship like the omen is a dps ship, but than CCP went the tanking way and gank was a thing of the past. What i proposed was giving the omen about 70% of the damage of a thorax, but with more optimal. IF the thing can use heavy pulse 2 lasers it should come close to the ion blasters and tech 2 drones of the thorax. Because the ion thorax doesnt carry a 800mm plate , but the omen does that means you would have some serieus problems on hands as a thorax pilot and not to mention the omen would be better for camping because of instadmg. Arbitrator only needs a bit more PG, so it can compete with vexor. I started flying gallente a while ago when ammar was teh pwn, now throug some flavour of the month changes gallente suddenly pwn. Nerf ecm, nerf nos and we'll see what we end up with. /edit: I really dont care about personal insults, i really dont. Besides EAM 2 stack ok? What does that mean, thats means that a 25% resistance bonus is actually a hell lot better than fitting a maxed out EAM2. What is so extreme about this, in what sense is this whining? what sense is this screaming? I have only seen people quote my first line about that i dislike explosive damage, because that just aint ammar. What i get is 25 angry ammarian fanboys up my neck. Just read the goddamn text and tell what you AGREE on? ok? and again: I dont care about personal insults, i really dont. So stop using them. _________________________________________________
Exiled One
Posted - 2006.06.15 17:26:00 -
[668 ]
Originally by: madaluap Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 15/06/2006 10:32:04 What i do/dont support: 1. explosive crystals, c'mon just think it over gamebalance would die. 2. Maller sucks it doesnt have enough dmg!11!, maller is a great pvp ship, it will kill a thorax, the uberdps boat. Tanking is its power. 3. omen needs more grid i have said this again and again omen needs more grid 4. same for arbitrator (onoes mada has actually flown ammar) 5. PG requirments on medium (small) guns need to be downed. A ship like the omen is a dps ship, but than CCP went the tanking way and gank was a thing of the past. What i proposed was giving the omen about 70% of the damage of a thorax, but with more optimal. IF the thing can use heavy pulse 2 lasers it should come close to the ion blasters and tech 2 drones of the thorax. Because the ion thorax doesnt carry a 800mm plate , but the omen does that means you would have some serieus problems on hands as a thorax pilot and not to mention the omen would be better for camping because of instadmg. Arbitrator only needs a bit more PG, so it can compete with vexor. I started flying gallente a while ago when ammar was teh pwn, now throug some flavour of the month changes gallente suddenly pwn. Nerf ecm, nerf nos and we'll see what we end up with. /edit: I really dont care about personal insults, i really dont. Besides EAM 2 stack ok? What does that mean, thats means that a 25% resistance bonus is actually a hell lot better than fitting a maxed out EAM2. What is so extreme about this, in what sense is this whining? what sense is this screaming? I have only seen people quote my first line about that i dislike explosive damage, because that just aint ammar. What i get is 25 angry ammarian fanboys up my neck. Just read the goddamn text and tell what you AGREE on? ok? and again: I dont care about personal insults, i really dont. So stop using them. Ok, boy you don't fly amarr, you dont care about amarr ships, nor lasers. Go ahead and man your vexor ! Now, when next time you train something and waste 6 bloody months specializing dont come crying, K?
Exogene
Posted - 2006.06.15 17:35:00 -
[669 ]
Edited by: Exogene on 15/06/2006 17:35:55 Originally by: Exiled One Ok, boy you don't fly amarr, you dont care about amarr ships, nor lasers. Go ahead and man your vexor ! Now, when next time you train something and waste 6 bloody months specializing dont come crying, K? Signed! edit: Now lets get back on the topic please
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.15 18:12:00 -
[670 ]
I think I am just going to ignore madaluap. He is no longer contributing in a constructive manner to the topic. I suggest others do the same, and keep our post about the topic and not madaluap's responses. I think there are many suggestions in this thread that could put Amarr back in a balanced position. We have been left behind, and it is getting annoying.
Tar Ecthelion
Posted - 2006.06.15 21:09:00 -
[671 ]
Originally by: Aemilus Brutus I think I am just going to ignore madaluap. He is no longer contributing in a constructive manner to the topic. I suggest others do the same, and keep our post about the topic and not madaluap's responses. I think there are many suggestions in this thread that could put Amarr back in a balanced position. We have been left behind, and it is getting annoying. /signed ..... "When you kill a man it costs nothing to be polite" Winston Churchill
Ganandorf
Posted - 2006.06.15 21:11:00 -
[672 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 15/06/2006 14:49:42 Originally by: Exogene Originally by: madaluap But well who cares, nobody flies hacs in pvp anyway, last zealots i saw were whoring lvl 4 missions or doing complex. You really don't know what you are talking about lol yeh i do, nobody flies hacs in pvp exept: 1. alliance bears 2. rich carebears, but he! they are carebears 3. You i guess? And i mean flying them, not being ganged up with 35 other hacs slaying tech 1 cruisers, while having a full rack of stabs... i have flown sacri,zealots,curse's,pilgrim's and still do when i feel like it on my other account. on this one i fly cerberus,rook's and falcon's and im no "alliance bear" or "rich carebear" i just try to use those tools when its needed and dont go on suicide runs with them. OMG EVE is bugged i have 50mil I don't mine and I fly a zealot in pvp
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.15 21:42:00 -
[673 ]
THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT HACS kthbai Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.15 21:44:00 -
[674 ]
Originally by: Rockbox THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT HACS kthbai the title is ammar ammar have hacs dont they? Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.15 22:03:00 -
[675 ]
Yeah, I think all the races do However how does a full fledged debate on wether or not HACs are flown in PvP besides by rich Carbears have anything to do with buffing Amarr Now back on topic!Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.15 22:09:00 -
[676 ]
Originally by: Rockbox Yeah, I think all the races do However how does a full fledged debate on wether or not HACs are flown in PvP besides by rich Carbears have anything to do with buffing Amarr Now back on topic! sort out the fittings for the med guns bit more em than thermal kkthx bye p.s exp+ kin hybrid ammo plz Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.16 04:03:00 -
[677 ]
Edited by: Aemilus Brutus on 16/06/2006 04:04:48 Keep hope alive! Bump Power! My number 1 wish--- Change the ratio of thermal to em on mid to short range crystals and maybe add some back on radio(easy to do!) and give lasers a damage boost (either on the guns or on the crystals), just a small one. Do this and you've instantly solved a large part of the balance problems. See Tux, fast and easy! And as a bonus, you get fewer Amarr threads to muddle through! The Khanid ships.... that would take awhile.
Blind Man
Posted - 2006.06.16 04:07:00 -
[678 ]
all I can say is: boosting a race that I dream/will be flying soon ftw.
twit brent
Posted - 2006.06.16 08:35:00 -
[679 ]
Read the first post. I will start believing amarr suck when i see a tempest or railthron get the 976 dmg/s my tachy geddon does with guns alone.
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.16 08:39:00 -
[680 ]
Originally by: twit brent I will start believing amarr suck when i see a tempest or railthron get the 976 dmg/s my tachy geddon does with guns alone. Not everyone shoots on structure all day. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.16 10:04:00 -
[681 ]
Originally by: twit brent Read the first post. I will start believing amarr suck when i see a tempest or railthron get the 976 dmg/s my tachy geddon does with guns alone. if you read through you will see that a mega with 425II's does about 5% more DPS then a tachyon poc. someone did the calculations a few pages back. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
TuRtLe HeAd
Posted - 2006.06.16 10:21:00 -
[682 ]
Minmatar using 0 CAP has Made 0 Diffence to ANY of My minmatar Ships, As the CAP requirements Were non existent to start with. Tachyons DO need a Slight RoF OR Damage increase (Not Both) Crystals Do NOT need their damage changing, aside from the fact that a laser Physically cannot deal kinetic or explosive damage. What About us Minnies ? Explosive and Kinetic Damage on the guns Is Great IF we get through Armour . But we have a long way to go to get the sheilds down with Explosive. Then When we get to Armour, Its normally one of the Best Tanked Resists (RULE OF THUMB) The funniest thing about this game is Racially Amarr moan About minmatar and Vice versa. And we all moan about Gallente. While Caldari try and keep quiet incase someone clocks on the Silly damage they are now doing with their missiles (AGAIN).
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.16 10:30:00 -
[683 ]
Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Minmatar using 0 CAP has Made 0 Diffence to ANY of My minmatar Ships, As the CAP requirements Were non existent to start with. There is a difference when you're using nos/neutralizers against a minmatar ship. Even with 1 cap use, the guns deactivate every now and then while with no cap use at all they just keep firing. Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Crystals Do NOT need their damage changing, aside from the fact that a laser Physically cannot deal kinetic or explosive damage. Crystals do need a switch of their EM/Thermal values because EM resists increased drastically with the introduction of armor compensation skills. And let's not start on physics. Alot in eve cannot be explained physically. Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Explosive and Kinetic Damage on the guns Is Great IF we get through Armour . But we have a long way to go to get the sheilds down with Explosive. Ever heard of EMP and phased plasma? Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Then When we get to Armour, Its normally one of the Best Tanked Resists (RULE OF THUMB) Explosive resist higher than EM or thermal? Yeeea right..Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
TuRtLe HeAd
Posted - 2006.06.16 11:07:00 -
[684 ]
Edited by: TuRtLe HeAd on 16/06/2006 11:09:23 The difference is NEGLIGIBLE with 1 CAP. REgardless of being Nossed Neutralised. The recharge alone Is normally enough to keep all the guns running. Your second response Was completely Out of context, as Its in reference to the Kinetic and Explosive Damage on a Crystal Not refering to the The amount of EM/Thermal Ratio. Third comment. Tech II Projectile Ammo Doesn't do Thermal or EM. and seeing as this thread is about tech II crystals, Addionally off set By the MASSIVE reload time Of Ammo, comment is also irrelevant. Fourth Comment. I Said Rule of Thumb. Picking apart someones post with Quotes doesn't make you look any smarter.
twit brent
Posted - 2006.06.16 11:12:00 -
[685 ]
Edited by: twit brent on 16/06/2006 11:13:34 Originally by: Forsch Originally by: twit brent I will start believing amarr suck when i see a tempest or railthron get the 976 dmg/s my tachy geddon does with guns alone. Not everyone shoots on structure all day. I use raw DPS because its the best way to compare damage done. I have specced in amarr and have no regrets at all. Too many people just whine when they cant use a ship properly. Its true that amarr arent the greatest solo pwn mobiles but you realy have to look past that at the other things amarr exels at.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.16 11:20:00 -
[686 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/06/2006 11:25:31 Originally by: twit brent I use raw DPS because its the best way to compare damage done. Oh RLY? And would you be so nice to justify this? Especially considering that most people nowadays armortank in PvP and EANII is getting the most popular tanking module? Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd ..aside from the fact that a laser Physically cannot deal kinetic or explosive damage. ... As Forsch said, do not try to use RL physics. It's to your advantage. Unless you want to explain how lasers can do EM damage (They cannot. Not a bit. Nada. Zip. Zilch.) or why they have high optimals, low falloff (A RL laser does not stop suddenly, it looses focus slowly. From a RL aspect they should work with low optimals and very very long falloffs).
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.16 11:22:00 -
[687 ]
Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Edited by: TuRtLe HeAd on 16/06/2006 11:09:23 The difference is NEGLIGIBLE with 1 CAP. REgardless of being Nossed Neutralised. The recharge alone Is normally enough to keep all the guns running. Your second response Was completely Out of context, as Its in reference to the Kinetic and Explosive Damage on a Crystal Not refering to the The amount of EM/Thermal Ratio. Third comment. Tech II Projectile Ammo Doesn't do Thermal or EM. and seeing as this thread is about tech II crystals, Addionally off set By the MASSIVE reload time Of Ammo, comment is also irrelevant. Fourth Comment. I Said Rule of Thumb. Picking apart someones post with Quotes doesn't make you look any smarter. There is a difference between 1 cap use and no cap use. If you time your nos/neuts smart, you can keep the enemy's guns offline for at least 50% of the time. As for my second response, no one ever said he wanted 'damage changing' (as you call it) to explosive/kinetic. If there is talk about changing damage types people are talking about a switch of the EM/Thermal values. You don't have to use t2 ammo all the time. T2 ammo is situational. If you're facing a shield heavy ship, don't use ammo that only does explosive/kinetic damage. Not that hard to understand really. A rule of thumb of something that is mostly true. But explosive damage is NEVER the best tanked resist (except for t2 amarr ships). The rule of thumb would rather be an EM resist of at least 60% on armor. Most likely more because everyone is using adaptive nanos nowadays. Your initial post still doesn't make sense, I'm sorry.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Meridius
Posted - 2006.06.16 11:28:00 -
[688 ]
Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd The difference is NEGLIGIBLE with 1 CAP. REgardless of being Nossed Neutralised. The recharge alone Is normally enough to keep all the guns running. Do you play this game? Really..? Nos/Neuts were enough to seriously affect Vagabonds/Tempests ect. With enough nos you could have cut there dps by like 70%. The cap nullification on projectiles was not insignificant. - _____
Tiuwaz
Posted - 2006.06.16 11:46:00 -
[689 ]
Originally by: Meridius Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd The difference is NEGLIGIBLE with 1 CAP. REgardless of being Nossed Neutralised. The recharge alone Is normally enough to keep all the guns running. Do you play this game? Really..? Nos/Neuts were enough to seriously affect Vagabonds/Tempests ect. With enough nos you could have cut there dps by like 70%. The cap nullification on projectiles was not insignificant. as a mainly Minmatar user i have to agree here, the change was not insignificant, cap use of med/large Ac's was enough to justify training controlled bursts to 4 the biggest benefit of this is for pve although, in pvp minnie ships survive by their speed, with dead cap they cant use propulsion mods or active tanks, with the consequence that once your cap is dead the ship will go boom soon aswell the most benefit of this get passive tanker like the dual shield extender vagas, it also is of benefit in fights that get decided by a narrow margin (Nota Bene: the anti minnnie lobby always cited the no cap use as an advantage for minnies even when they still used cap back then, for those ppl nothing should have changed ) this infomercial was brought to you by the Minmatar Intelligence Service, you may now continue with amarr whines Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.16 12:27:00 -
[690 ]
I'm not totally convinced the em/thermal is as big problem as the grid need on some of the lasers is pretty disturbing. What was the average toon age again? 7 months or something? If you cant use RCU II's and have advanced weapon upgrades IV or V you WILL need 4 RCU's to fit full rack of tachyons on a apoc. I'm sorry but to me it just sounds wrong, for most amarr ships there is no low slot benefit because they must be used on cap or grid mods, or both. Its not just for battleships, there's hardly any using amarr cruisers with their own guns, instead maller does better with small blasters or autocannons. Omen I cant be bothered to try fly anymore because the 'best' gank config is 2 heavy pulses 2 focused meds w/ 3 HS II's, with 4 heavy pulses you need to give up the 3'rd HS II for a RCU. Didnt heavy pulses compare to heavy ions, not neuts? With rax on the other hand I can fit all five heavy neuts and 3 magstab II's with a RCU and one low slot left for repper, which for me has to be small repper II but I dont mind, all gank setup, with a little better grid skills I could even have MWD on it. Arbitrator is pretty cool though, but still like a lesser cousin of the vexor, the amarr counterpart has only the fraction of the damaging ability of vexor by itself. I doubt I have to say anything about the Augoror, besides that all the npc ship builders have thousands of them for sale on the build locations, because nobody buys them for anything but cargo runners.
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.16 13:18:00 -
[691 ]
Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami If you cant use RCU II's and have advanced weapon upgrades IV or V you WILL need 4 RCU's to fit full rack of tachyons on a apoc. actually you can fit 8 t1 tachs with 2 t1 rcu's if you have awu 1 if you can use t2 tachs i would bloody well hope you have awu 3 or 4 at least in which case you still need at least one t2 rcu to get 8 tach II's in :( you're right on everything else tho augoror is only good on sisi where everyone can fly around with a full slave set and have 20k of armour on their augoror
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.16 13:41:00 -
[692 ]
who cares about tach's ? i want to be able to have a decent tank while using megapulses on my apocs and do equal dmg and be able to tank equally much as other races can. today that isnt possible. tachs are fine as they are imho, they work nice from long range wich they should but the problem is that you cant tank and do any kind of decent dmg at short range like ravens, megas and domis. and then we have the cruiser problems wich really needs a whole new rework to function properly. and on top of that there is silly fitting problems for the amarr interceptors and frigates as the beam versions of small guns only fits on the cruisers and not on the frigates. imagine how much ppl would scream if their races cruisers could only fit small guns if they wanted a tank on the cruisers. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
twit brent
Posted - 2006.06.16 15:25:00 -
[693 ]
my tach geddon will blow up any ship faster than a railtron can by a long way unless that ship is set for just EM + thermal tanking.
Exiled One
Posted - 2006.06.16 16:24:00 -
[694 ]
Originally by: twit brent my tach geddon will blow up any ship faster than a railtron can by a long way unless that ship is set for just EM + thermal tanking. so you like useeingngn rails and 1400mm howwiez for close range do you ?!@??!? yes???
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.16 16:24:00 -
[695 ]
Originally by: Xendie who cares about tach's ? i want to be able to have a decent tank while using megapulses on my apocs and do equal dmg and be able to tank equally much as other races can. today that isnt possible. Erm I'm kinda confused yoru saying you can fit a full rack of 800's on a pest and 2hvy nos/cruiser/seige with a decent tank without having to sehild tank and fit a load of pdu II's Dual lar megatrhon +neutrons is still impossible and fitting a x booster II on a raven with full rack of seige is nigh on impossible so maybe fittng top tier weapons is meant to be hard Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.16 16:43:00 -
[696 ]
Quote: and fitting a x booster II on a raven with full rack of seige is nigh on impossible so maybe fittng top tier weapons is meant to be hard Correct me if I'm wrong but x-large booster II is capital ship grade yes?
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.16 16:51:00 -
[697 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata If Meridius says something sucks or is uber, he is right, period/end of story. He's been around a long time & never lies about stuff in regards to their abilities. Need a good ship setup, he can tell you, need a straight answer about anything, he will tell you. Point is, dont argue with the man, he's right, you're wrong. Does Meridius let you pleasure him, or do you have to beg first? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.16 17:31:00 -
[698 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Xendie who cares about tach's ? i want to be able to have a decent tank while using megapulses on my apocs and do equal dmg and be able to tank equally much as other races can. today that isnt possible. Erm I'm kinda confused yoru saying you can fit a full rack of 800's on a pest and 2hvy nos/cruiser/seige with a decent tank without having to sehild tank and fit a load of pdu II's Dual lar megatrhon +neutrons is still impossible and fitting a x booster II on a raven with full rack of seige is nigh on impossible so maybe fittng top tier weapons is meant to be hard i dont say that i should be able to fit it without any engineering mods but considering that there is no dmg bonus on the apocs and everyone says that apocs are supposed to be the great tanking ships it shouldnt take more then 2 engineering mods to fit 8 megapulses and dual rep with hardeners. i can fit 8*800's with a dual rep and 3 hardeners and dmg mods on a apoc and by doing so does same dmg with better tanking. also when doing that there is no need to carry around 70+mill worth of ammo either. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.16 17:35:00 -
[699 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Xendie who cares about tach's ? i want to be able to have a decent tank while using megapulses on my apocs and do equal dmg and be able to tank equally much as other races can. today that isnt possible. Erm I'm kinda confused yoru saying you can fit a full rack of 800's on a pest and 2hvy nos/cruiser/seige with a decent tank without having to sehild tank and fit a load of pdu II's Dual lar megatrhon +neutrons is still impossible and fitting a x booster II on a raven with full rack of seige is nigh on impossible so maybe fittng top tier weapons is meant to be hard i dont say that i should be able to fit it without any engineering mods but considering that there is no dmg bonus on the apocs and everyone says that apocs are supposed to be the great tanking ships it shouldnt take more then 2 engineering mods to fit 8 megapulses and dual rep with hardeners. i can fit 8*800's with a dual rep and 3 hardeners and dmg mods on a apoc and by doing so does same dmg with better tanking. also when doing that there is no need to carry around 70+mill worth of ammo either. bu ******* hu, ok your ammo is expensive but then so is eveyone else's yes its more expensive by a bit but then thats the producers that set the price so take it up with them Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.16 17:51:00 -
[700 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 bu ******* hu, ok your ammo is expensive but then so is eveyone else's yes its more expensive by a bit but then thats the producers that set the price so take it up with them Has nothing to do with the producers. It's the built cost. because t2 crystals hold quite long until they break -> build cost is high -> price is high.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.16 18:58:00 -
[701 ]
Edited by: Xendie on 16/06/2006 18:58:35 its not like ppl who use amarr guns can grab 250 shots of 2 types of ammo and thus getting away cheap, if using a apoc they have to take with them the value of ca:8000*2=16000 shots and thus around 70mill+ in just ammo. quite unbalanced isnt it? i wonder what every other BS pilot whould say if they had to carry 70+mill worth of ammo in their ships if they wanted to shoot tech2 ammo ? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
FireMonk
Posted - 2006.06.16 19:04:00 -
[702 ]
Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami Quote: and fitting a x booster II on a raven with full rack of seige is nigh on impossible so maybe fittng top tier weapons is meant to be hard Correct me if I'm wrong but x-large booster II is capital ship grade yes? wrong capital sb is capital size-----------------------
Executor Tassadar
Posted - 2006.06.16 19:37:00 -
[703 ]
*signed*
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.06.16 20:01:00 -
[704 ]
Is this thread still going on? Jeez.... And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.16 20:06:00 -
[705 ]
Originally by: FireMonk Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami Quote: and fitting a x booster II on a raven with full rack of seige is nigh on impossible so maybe fittng top tier weapons is meant to be hard Correct me if I'm wrong but x-large booster II is capital ship grade yes? wrong capital sb is capital size My bad, never saw any on available market deals.
Executor Tassadar
Posted - 2006.06.16 20:24:00 -
[706 ]
Originally by: Xendie i want to be able to have a decent tank while using megapulses on my apocs and do equal dmg and be able to tank equally much as other races can. today that isnt possible. tachs are fine as they are imho, they work nice from long range wich they should but the problem is that you cant tank and do any kind of decent dmg at short range like ravens, megas and domis. Totaly Agree
Letifer Deus
Posted - 2006.06.16 21:59:00 -
[707 ]
Originally by: Xendie i want to be able to have a decent tank while using megapulses on my apocs and do equal dmg and be able to tank equally much as other races can. today that isnt possible. The apoc isn't meant to be a damage dealer. Why do people keep whining that apoc doesn't do as much damage as a tempest or a megathron. Hello, that is what the armageddon is for. Now, as I have stated before, the Apoc needs a grid boost so it can fit 8 mega pulse or 7 tachs w/o having to fit a pg booster. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.16 22:49:00 -
[708 ]
Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 16/06/2006 22:08:22 Originally by: Xendie i want to be able to have a decent tank while using megapulses on my apocs and do equal dmg and be able to tank equally much as other races can. today that isnt possible. The apoc isn't meant to be a damage dealer. Why do people keep whining that apoc doesn't do as much damage as a tempest or a megathron. Hello, that is what the armageddon is for. Now, as I have stated before, the Apoc needs a grid boost so it can fit 8 mega pulse 2s or 7 tach 2s w/o having to fit a pg booster. However, it should be increased so that with 8 MP2s or 7 tach2s, it has very little PG to spare. If you have to ask why, please reread the first sentence. The whining isnt because of the lack of offensive power alone, it has been stated over half a dozen times in neat numbers or reasoned posts. The tank on apoc is not exceptional on any sense and to fit its best tank means it wont do any meaningful damage to other battleships. So people take a mega and fit the same tank config on it and still have a rather meaningful influence.
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.16 23:17:00 -
[709 ]
what it needs is a proper tanking bonus, 5% or 7.5% to resists the cap bonus is pretty much worthless as you have to use a cap booster to run a good pvp tank anyway
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.17 02:35:00 -
[710 ]
You know, I never complained about people requesting a boost if I didn't fly their ships. I didn't go on blaster threads and say, "You're fine. You don't need a boost at all!, Stop you're whinning n00b". I didn't comment on the Raven until I used one. I let the people that fly the ships fight it out amongst themselves what boosts may be needed and let CCP decide if there is merit to their arguments. I read other balance threads because I want to know how other players are doing. Do people sometimes ask for too much? Yes, but given the cautious nature of CCP implimenting balance tweaks I don't really worry about that. If this were EQ where buffs and nerfs of great size happened I would worry, but EVE is a very different game. And Amarr have fallen behind, their tanks aren't good enough to justify their damage output, their damage type is increasingly less useful. Their cruisers and frigates have fitting issues. Most Amarr flying players don't want a massive boost, just slight tweaks to different areas to but Amarr back in balance. Are their a few people that demand massive boosts that would be too much? Yes, but quoting and focusing on them for your agruments is not a reasonable way to disscuss this issue, it is very similar to using a strawman argument.
twit brent
Posted - 2006.06.17 05:11:00 -
[711 ]
The armageddon is the amarr gunship BS. Using the apoc to compare damage is just pointless.
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.17 05:21:00 -
[712 ]
Edited by: BirdBleed on 17/06/2006 06:07:27 Originally by: twit brent my tach geddon will blow up any ship faster than a railtron can by a long way unless that ship is set for just EM + thermal tanking. please just stop posting, you arent even spec in amarr, you are gallante trash http://ig.eve-fix.com/kb/pilot_detail.php?plt_id=1084 ship of choice : megathron :P so please, STFU
twit brent
Posted - 2006.06.17 06:09:00 -
[713 ]
Originally by: BirdBleed Edited by: BirdBleed on 17/06/2006 06:07:27 Originally by: twit brent my tach geddon will blow up any ship faster than a railtron can by a long way unless that ship is set for just EM + thermal tanking. please just stop posting, you arent even spec in amarr, you are gallante trash http://ig.eve-fix.com/kb/pilot_detail.php?plt_id=1084 ship of choice : megathron :P so please, STFU Maybe u should look up my alt WhiteKnight1717 ship of choice : armageddon :P so STFU
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.17 10:26:00 -
[714 ]
Originally by: twit brent The armageddon is the amarr gunship BS. Using the apoc to compare damage is just pointless. so lets compare tanking with the dominix then? is that better? both gallente BS tanks better and does more dmg at the same time then a apoc so what do we compare to? amarr frigates? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.17 10:46:00 -
[715 ]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 17/06/2006 10:46:15 Originally by: twit brent my tach geddon will blow up any ship faster than a railtron can by a long way unless that ship is set for just EM + thermal tanking. Pffft. I had an encounter with a Raven here the otherday. Range was about 100-ish. I got the raven to 60% shield when I was at 50% armour and had to warp out(because with tachs you cant even fit a repair module. Raven used cruise missiles and I used auroras. And yes, I got all gunnery skills maxed out on top of bs lv5. Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Gronsak
Posted - 2006.06.17 10:54:00 -
[716 ]
Originally by: Frools what it needs is a proper tanking bonus, 5% or 7.5% to resists the cap bonus is pretty much worthless as you have to use a cap booster to run a good pvp tank anyway yep apoc should get 5% per lvl resistance rather than cap, in pvp you are much better off injecting cap so its bonous is totally wasted! -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
twit brent
Posted - 2006.06.17 11:09:00 -
[717 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: twit brent The armageddon is the amarr gunship BS. Using the apoc to compare damage is just pointless. so lets compare tanking with the dominix then? is that better? both gallente BS tanks better and does more dmg at the same time then a apoc so what do we compare to? amarr frigates? Did i say apoc tanks better, did i say apoc cant do damage and tank? No, i said when comparing damage use the geddon so wtf are u quoting me for?
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.17 11:26:00 -
[718 ]
Originally by: twit brent Originally by: Xendie Originally by: twit brent The armageddon is the amarr gunship BS. Using the apoc to compare damage is just pointless. so lets compare tanking with the dominix then? is that better? both gallente BS tanks better and does more dmg at the same time then a apoc so what do we compare to? amarr frigates? Did i say apoc tanks better, did i say apoc cant do damage and tank? No, i said when comparing damage use the geddon so wtf are u quoting me for? so tell me what is the apoc good for at close range? tanking?, nope Dmg dealing? nope little of both? nope this thread was first and foremost about the apoc and why it is able to tank better using projectiles and having as good dmg with projectiles. and yes the apoc with pulses doesnt measure up to the apoc with autocannons. also the geddon doesnt have any tank when using megapulses to do enough dmg. and this is where you scream and spout that it shouldnt have it either, i say why does the Dominix do comparable dmg while tanking then? dominix is a tier 1 and so is the geddon. only really good thing that geddon does now is as a tachyon sniper in wich case he needs to haul around 70+mill of ammo also Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.17 12:06:00 -
[719 ]
Originally by: Meridius I'm sorry, Amarr are suppose to be the turret kings? Yeah right. Zealot was made with stacked damage mods in mind, it needs another turret now that stacking has been wtfnerfed. we arent alowed to be the turret kings so it seems. As a race with the least counters i would like to atleast be the best at something :P
Frools
Posted - 2006.06.17 12:15:00 -
[720 ]
Originally by: Xendie also the geddon doesnt have any tank when using megapulses to do enough dmg. and this is where you scream and spout that it shouldnt have it either, i say why does the Dominix do comparable dmg while tanking then? domi doesnt do comparable damage to a geddon... zealot outdamages a domi in raw dps its not damage that makes the domi great its the combination of decent damage, nos and ew geddon needs a little bit of cpu if anything, aside from that its fine and it rocks
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.17 13:55:00 -
[721 ]
Originally by: Frools Originally by: Xendie also the geddon doesnt have any tank when using megapulses to do enough dmg. and this is where you scream and spout that it shouldnt have it either, i say why does the Dominix do comparable dmg while tanking then? domi doesnt do comparable damage to a geddon... zealot outdamages a domi in raw dps its not damage that makes the domi great its the combination of decent damage, nos and ew geddon needs a little bit of cpu if anything, aside from that its fine and it rocks domi does about same dmg and tanks well and can use ECM at the same time. why cant amarr atleast be able to fit a rack of megapulses with no engineering mods? if to fit a tank also then engineering mods should be needed. atm this is not the case. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Kcel Chim
Posted - 2006.06.17 14:03:00 -
[722 ]
not all ships are meant to do pure dmg or fit all roles. The arma is an excellent ship when it comes to medium range instant dmg and ability to join in fleetbattles. No other tier 1 bs disputes those 2 fields anywhere close. The scorpion is ew king and the domi is a mix of ew/nos/drones lets call it closerange king. Typhoon is still in the air but it has potential. I wouldnt say in this comparison the arma does badly, fitting mods or not. As for the other shipclasses, there is only 4 "ranks" between caldari gallente, minmatar and amarr. So surely ull lose and win some. Especially if u look at different situations or different tasks a ship can be used in. Amarr lost mining and tanking to barges and t2 ships available to all races that was a huge drawback. However i guess most ppl can survive by only flying Crusader, Malediction, Armas, Zealots, Prophecies, Arbitrators, Revelations, Archons amd Curse / Pilgrims. Not like the rest of the ships are actually a must.
Scary Noises
Posted - 2006.06.17 15:49:00 -
[723 ]
Is having a Tier One Battleship usable in fleets really that big a deal? If someone can effectively use a battleship in the first place then is extra 40 mil or whatever that big of a deal? Just seems like a trivial thing.
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.17 17:39:00 -
[724 ]
Edited by: Spartan239 on 17/06/2006 17:42:24 Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Frools Originally by: Xendie also the geddon doesnt have any tank when using megapulses to do enough dmg. and this is where you scream and spout that it shouldnt have it either, i say why does the Dominix do comparable dmg while tanking then? domi doesnt do comparable damage to a geddon... zealot outdamages a domi in raw dps its not damage that makes the domi great its the combination of decent damage, nos and ew geddon needs a little bit of cpu if anything, aside from that its fine and it rocks domi does about same dmg and tanks well and can use ECM at the same time. so apoc does 500dps max with megapulse, because unless you fit dual 250's and sheild tank (obselte with uber jamming) you wont get it any higher and to those saying the domi is an uber nosser, all it can fit with most setups with 2 hvy nos because it doesnt have an abandunce of powergrid so stop saying it can nos more Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Lavondyss
Posted - 2006.06.17 17:48:00 -
[725 ]
WTB: Dev with a timely response to an overdue matter. Will pay good isk or trade Caldari ships in return for said response. Open convo........
El Ponja
Posted - 2006.06.17 23:40:00 -
[726 ]
*signed*
Madcat Adams
Posted - 2006.06.18 01:28:00 -
[727 ]
*sighned* Will contribute a pack of smokes of choice to first dev to post up a response so we have some idea of their thoughts on the matter. Seriously though, at 25 pages, a dev response or at least a sticky perhaps?
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.18 01:35:00 -
[728 ]
see here and sush Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
El Ponja
Posted - 2006.06.18 14:31:00 -
[729 ]
dont see any dev response in there
Double TaP
Posted - 2006.06.18 14:44:00 -
[730 ]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 17/06/2006 10:46:15 Originally by: twit brent my tach geddon will blow up any ship faster than a railtron can by a long way unless that ship is set for just EM + thermal tanking. Pffft. I had an encounter with a Raven here the otherday. Range was about 100-ish. I got the raven to 60% shield when I was at 50% armour and had to warp out(because with tachs you cant even fit a repair module. Raven used cruise missiles and I used auroras. And yes, I got all gunnery skills maxed out on top of bs lv5. Oh so your tier one ship didn't beat a tier 2 ship that can mount a great tank?
south24
Posted - 2006.06.18 14:50:00 -
[731 ]
signed for all previous reasons mentioned
Hey You
Posted - 2006.06.18 14:50:00 -
[732 ]
Originally by: Double TaP Originally by: Imperial Coercion Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 17/06/2006 10:46:15 Originally by: twit brent my tach geddon will blow up any ship faster than a railtron can by a long way unless that ship is set for just EM + thermal tanking. Pffft. I had an encounter with a Raven here the otherday. Range was about 100-ish. I got the raven to 60% shield when I was at 50% armour and had to warp out(because with tachs you cant even fit a repair module. Raven used cruise missiles and I used auroras. And yes, I got all gunnery skills maxed out on top of bs lv5. Oh so your tier one ship didn't beat a tier 2 ship that can mount a great tank? Considering the Apoc is crap, the Geddon is pretty much the tier-1 and tier-2 BS for Amarr, because for all purposes, the Apoc is 100% worse then the Geddon. :D ------------------------------
El Ponja
Posted - 2006.06.18 14:53:00 -
[733 ]
theres is something i never figured out, whats the role of the apoc? some ppl say tanking.... so that means he is good at getting shot at? whats the point if he cant do any dmg
Ganandorf
Posted - 2006.06.18 14:56:00 -
[734 ]
2 large reppers = 2 large reppers, doesn't matter crap if you're in an apoc or a megathron or a tempest, they tank the same so apoc isn't a good tanker Also someone said something like ''you're amazed that you lost from a good damageing tier 2 bs that can mount a crazy tank?'' well maybe this is the point: everyone can do this, we can't
tamaz
Posted - 2006.06.18 15:51:00 -
[735 ]
sometimes I do lvl 4 missions with a mate in a raven. They have about half the skills I do in relevant flying/shooting/tanking but the raven takes more damage and has a much, much faster kill rate compared to my apoc. And no it's not because he has an uber setup or faction mods in every slot or because my setup(s) are lame. How many chars with 5-10 mil sp solo lvl4's in an apoc these days? I don't know anyone that does anymore. I know lots that solo most lvl4's comfortably in a raven. No idea what the answer is, I'll leave that to the nerfbat swingers but twice the skills for half effectiveness is not right.... Fix amarr ships, please!
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.18 20:21:00 -
[736 ]
Originally by: Double TaP Originally by: Imperial Coercion Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 17/06/2006 10:46:15 Originally by: twit brent my tach geddon will blow up any ship faster than a railtron can by a long way unless that ship is set for just EM + thermal tanking. Pffft. I had an encounter with a Raven here the otherday. Range was about 100-ish. I got the raven to 60% shield when I was at 50% armour and had to warp out(because with tachs you cant even fit a repair module. Raven used cruise missiles and I used auroras. And yes, I got all gunnery skills maxed out on top of bs lv5. Oh so your tier one ship didn't beat a tier 2 ship that can mount a great tank? i think someone used the argument earlier when they thought that the dominix should beat a Apoc. and if all ships are to be of as close to equal in dmg+tanking ability as any other BS then they need to look at the amarr ships. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Exogene
Posted - 2006.06.18 22:06:00 -
[737 ]
No matter who says what, amarr ships are borked and need fixing ASAP and we need some word from the devs on this!
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.18 23:31:00 -
[738 ]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 18/06/2006 23:32:51 Originally by: Double TaP Originally by: Imperial Coercion Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 17/06/2006 10:46:15 Originally by: twit brent my tach geddon will blow up any ship faster than a railtron can by a long way unless that ship is set for just EM + thermal tanking. Pffft. I had an encounter with a Raven here the otherday. Range was about 100-ish. I got the raven to 60% shield when I was at 50% armour and had to warp out(because with tachs you cant even fit a repair module. Raven used cruise missiles and I used auroras. And yes, I got all gunnery skills maxed out on top of bs lv5. Oh so your tier one ship didn't beat a tier 2 ship that can mount a great tank? But geddon is a damage dealer!!111 Ok, so the tier1 didnt work, lets try the apoc. Ops even worse damage and a tank that lasts 30 seconds.But the apoc isnt a damage dealer!!111 Ok, so what should I use then to take out an raven that does more damage and tank better than me? I know, I'll get a gang lolz! Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Lavondyss
Posted - 2006.06.19 06:38:00 -
[739 ]
Fix the dang Amarr ships soon or at least respond to this 25 page posting. I find the Amarr HAC's to be useful for the most part but I haven't flown my Apoc or Geddon in ages because of their shortcomings. Come on Devs pony up already, a response is long over due. I have 16 millon sp in mostly energy turret specialization alone and the most practical PvP use I can find for my Apoc is as a Vampire. Tell me that is not sad stuff? This is a real problem that needs attention.
fairimear
Posted - 2006.06.19 07:01:00 -
[740 ]
this thread really deserves to be locked now. any wayon a few subjects. IF lasers got a 3rd dmg type i would personaly say it would have to be kinetic. explo will lead to unfotunate exploitation by groups of amarrians able to melt past armor and shield. final the overal problem with amarr is a capacitor 1. these ships should be able to tank for heaven and they just can't. nostrafutes are 1 issue but pure caps use is another. both the apoc and geddon should be able to run a full tank and guns. and finaly there is only 1 amarr ship that is seriously underpowered and thats the sacrilige.
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.19 08:16:00 -
[741 ]
Originally by: fairimear nostrafutes are 1 issue but pure caps use is another. and finaly there is only 1 amarr ship that is seriously underpowered and thats the sacrilige. Looking for stickiness !!! And in addition to all I have said before about other amarr ships, the sac trully deserve another turret hardpoint, higher Grid and CPU and another low power slot. It's supposed to be an Upgraded Maller and they down grade it more than upgrade. It's just ridiculous. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Serj Darek
Posted - 2006.06.19 09:17:00 -
[742 ]
Originally by: Ganandorf 2 large reppers = 2 large reppers, doesn't matter crap if you're in an apoc or a megathron or a tempest, they tank the same so apoc isn't a good tanker Except that the Apoc has the most armor of the mentioned bs:s?Fix the Typhoon description! 3 years in the making! Signature to big, read the rules for details - Acario Vito
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.19 09:20:00 -
[743 ]
Well, anotherthing I want to say, there's a fairly of people have start some smack talk about what we, Amarr specs, doing in here. I'm calling for people to keep calm and ignore and those threat, obviously, boost up one race also mean nerfing all other and so, the other wont want it to happend. We're here for a fair arguement, solid proving about what we said. Smacktalk is only for smacktalkers and those are not welcome anywhere. Just like most alliance require people not to talk in local to keep their honor. Come, prove that amarr is powerful and dont need a boost, give us clue and proof, you're welcome to do so, more than welcome because it's the only way for all of us to figure out the truth and keep a well-balance EVE. The game that all of us love. Thank you. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Heiken Wimast
Posted - 2006.06.19 10:03:00 -
[744 ]
Originally by: MacQueen Well, anotherthing I want to say, there's a fairly of people have start some smack talk about what we, Amarr specs, doing in here. I'm calling for people to keep calm and ignore and those threat, obviously, boost up one race also mean nerfing all other and so, the other wont want it to happend. We're here for a fair arguement, solid proving about what we said. Smacktalk is only for smacktalkers and those are not welcome anywhere. Just like most alliance require people not to talk in local to keep their honor. Come, prove that amarr is powerful and dont need a boost, give us clue and proof, you're welcome to do so, more than welcome because it's the only way for all of us to figure out the truth and keep a well-balance EVE. The game that all of us love. Thank you. Amen
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.06.19 10:42:00 -
[745 ]
Originally by: Serj Darek Originally by: Ganandorf 2 large reppers = 2 large reppers, doesn't matter crap if you're in an apoc or a megathron or a tempest, they tank the same so apoc isn't a good tanker Except that the Apoc has the most armor of the mentioned bs:s? if you're doing it right repping is more important then total armor, besides other ships can fit a 1600mm plate where the apoc needs RCU II's to fit guns
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.19 11:07:00 -
[746 ]
Yeah, this shread deserves a sticky! Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Dano Sarum
Posted - 2006.06.19 11:12:00 -
[747 ]
I wish tux would hold my hand and make a post here.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.19 15:09:00 -
[748 ]
Originally by: Dano Sarum I wish tux would hold my hand and make a post here. wont happen, he doesnt fly Amarr ships. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.06.19 16:42:00 -
[749 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dano Sarum I wish tux would hold my hand and make a post here. wont happen, he doesnt fly Amarr ships. Who's in charge of Amarr balancing then? ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Cruz
Posted - 2006.06.19 16:43:00 -
[750 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dano Sarum I wish tux would hold my hand and make a post here. wont happen, he doesnt fly Amarr ships. Who's in charge of Amarr balancing then? I wish it was meridius --------------------------- For the glory of the empire! [url="http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadI
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.19 16:46:00 -
[751 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Dano Sarum I wish tux would hold my hand and make a post here. wont happen, he doesnt fly Amarr ships. Who's in charge of Amarr balancing then? looks like Tuxford is but he is busy boosting gallente, caldari and minmatar. not he nor any other dev has responded to the facts that amarr ships are so royally screwed up atm due to all the boosting of every other ship that is not amarr. personally i think its pretty weak of the devs to not look on the ramifications to one race when boosting the others. this is shown very clearly with the fact that all other ships generally is better choices then amarr for amarr specialized players in almost every aspect. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
The Gate
Posted - 2006.06.19 16:50:00 -
[752 ]
Originally by: Serj Darek Originally by: Ganandorf 2 large reppers = 2 large reppers, doesn't matter crap if you're in an apoc or a megathron or a tempest, they tank the same so apoc isn't a good tanker Except that the Apoc has the most armor of the mentioned bs:s? What good is a little extra armor when your opponent can do a hell of alot more damage than you can do ?
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.20 00:55:00 -
[753 ]
Originally by: The Gate Originally by: Serj Darek Originally by: Ganandorf 2 large reppers = 2 large reppers, doesn't matter crap if you're in an apoc or a megathron or a tempest, they tank the same so apoc isn't a good tanker Except that the Apoc has the most armor of the mentioned bs:s? What good is a little extra armor when your opponent can do a hell of alot more damage than you can do ? Nail meets head. Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Exiled One
Posted - 2006.06.20 03:08:00 -
[754 ]
Yay boost gallente, boost minmatar, leave ecm as it is for caldari and of course boost china, we don't give a **** about amarr!
Marley Princip
Posted - 2006.06.20 06:50:00 -
[755 ]
BOOST CRYSTALS \o/
DanMck
Posted - 2006.06.20 18:57:00 -
[756 ]
change all crystal option !
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.20 19:07:00 -
[757 ]
Yeah change it now! *Now means next patch which is 6 months away *
Dhin Xar
Posted - 2006.06.20 20:43:00 -
[758 ]
Tuxford would sooner die than reply to this thread I think.
El Ponja
Posted - 2006.06.20 21:18:00 -
[759 ]
rubble rubble rubble boost the amarr! bump for a needed change
Commander Thrawn
Posted - 2006.06.20 22:53:00 -
[760 ]
Originally by: El Ponja rubble rubble rubble boost the amarr! bump for a needed change Change is needed, this tread won disapear
El Ponja
Posted - 2006.06.20 23:29:00 -
[761 ]
i really hope so, im just worried that no dev has replied to this thread yet
Anal awereness
Posted - 2006.06.21 00:02:00 -
[762 ]
Originally by: El Ponja i really hope so, im just worried that no dev has replied to this thread yet It are times like these that devs dont reply. People see that usual setups dont work and start fitting differently. like nos in high ecm in med, tank in low and loads of drones. or even older changes. neutron in high, 1600mm plate and 8X ogre, allthough you cant fit that anymore On a serieus note, just discuss the changes you want to be made and sooner or later someone will respond. Dont ask for reply just do your thing and discuss. fancy numbers about dps comparisons allways help offcourse ---------------------- are you aw3re?
Dhin Xar
Posted - 2006.06.21 03:12:00 -
[763 ]
After a whopping 26 pages I doubt people have much left to add.
Mazar Byrd
Posted - 2006.06.21 05:19:00 -
[764 ]
I dont know if its been said or not but, why do gleam crystals have a 20% decrease in shields, and a 25% sig radius increase for each crystal used? That blows. Basically they make us more vunerable and still only do em and thermal damage. Doesnt make sence to me.
eLLioTT wave
Posted - 2006.06.21 06:40:00 -
[765 ]
Originally by: Mazar Byrd I dont know if its been said or not but, why do gleam crystals have a 20% decrease in shields, and a 25% sig radius increase for each crystal used? That blows. Basically they make us more vunerable and still only do em and thermal damage. Doesnt make sence to me. cos they do more dps plz fix crystals make them auto stack and create a "change all to type x" button similar to the "reload all" (as reload all is useless to amarr ships but change all would be the equivalent to the benefit reload all gives to the other races) T2 crystals imho should give us dif damage types for the shortrange ones in exchange for their lifespan and other penalties. (same dps but for exp kin or something)
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.21 10:50:00 -
[766 ]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 21/06/2006 10:50:04 Originally by: El Ponja i really hope so, im just worried that no dev has replied to this thread yet I actualy send it that question under 'eve support-ask a question' and the reply I got was that devs were reading threads in this folder on a regular basis and that just because we havent gotten a reply doesnt mean they are arent thinking about it. and IF they havent seen this yet then they need thicker glasses Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.21 11:36:00 -
[767 ]
Originally by: Mazar Byrd I dont know if its been said or not but, why do gleam crystals have a 20% decrease in shields, and a 25% sig radius increase for each crystal used? That blows. Basically they make us more vunerable and still only do em and thermal damage. Doesnt make sence to me. The 25% sig radius is one thing, but the shield? Do not really care about that, it's not like we shieldtank. I could care less if my shield is a 0 or 100% as long as my cap is full.
Yuleth Gix
Posted - 2006.06.21 18:29:00 -
[768 ]
Edited by: Yuleth Gix on 21/06/2006 18:30:52 Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Calisto Cody i dont like the idea of a explosive crystal..sounds wrong tbh (yes i fly amarr ) Lasers are light which is one of the purest form of energy. Shooting very high amounts of energy to anything that's made of atoms will cause either neutrons or electrons to start shifting in those atoms and thus the making the atoms react with each other in one form or another. There's couple of possible reactions, one is fusion of two or more atoms which makes the atoms combine to something totally different or the electrons and lose atoms may turn into ionized cloud in a rapid fashion thus causing an "explosion" of sorts, more accurately a gazillion atomic explosions. Totally unrelated, the body heat which human body creates is caused by constant combustion in our cells. It's just so small scaled that we don't see it but chemically we all are constantly exploding I"M EXPLODINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
Scary Noises
Posted - 2006.06.21 22:17:00 -
[769 ]
The bastard fitting requirements of frig and cruiser beams really could use a look atleast. It isn't like they are that good even after you get them to fit.
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.21 22:31:00 -
[770 ]
Originally by: Scary Noises The bastard fitting requirements of frig and cruiser beams really could use a look atleast. It isn't like they are that good even after you get them to fit. Pulses aswell, only ship I know that can fit a full rack of heavy pulses is prophecy, with a realistic config anyway.
Commander Thrawn
Posted - 2006.06.21 23:23:00 -
[771 ]
Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami Originally by: Scary Noises The bastard fitting requirements of frig and cruiser beams really could use a look atleast. It isn't like they are that good even after you get them to fit. Pulses aswell, only ship I know that can fit a full rack of heavy pulses is prophecy, with a realistic config anyway. zealot as well, and i think these are the to most used cruisers/BC maller, omen, and sac can't fit heavy's without nerfing their tank to add 1 - 2 RCUs
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.21 23:42:00 -
[772 ]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami Originally by: Scary Noises The bastard fitting requirements of frig and cruiser beams really could use a look atleast. It isn't like they are that good even after you get them to fit. Pulses aswell, only ship I know that can fit a full rack of heavy pulses is prophecy, with a realistic config anyway. zealot as well, and i think these are the to most used cruisers/BC maller, omen, and sac can't fit heavy's without nerfing their tank to add 1 - 2 RCUs I was guessing the zealot could but didnt comment on it because I have no experience of that and the sac, I try not to speak of things I have no knowledge of :)
The ArchWarder
Posted - 2006.06.22 04:00:00 -
[773 ]
Probably recapping previous posts but what i wana see more than anything else is: 1: Less fitting requirements for the Tachys, heavy beams and medium beams ( there is no frig in existance that can use these and not totally gimp the low slots, having to fit 2 rcus is BS when the other races dont have to ( from what ive heard).) 2: The thermal/EM dammage ratio to be adjusted due to the abundance of EANIIs ( looking at the 92% em resist on Mini t2 ships here aswell) 3: The retrebution to have a high slot moved to a mid slot ( there are only 2 ships in the game that have 1 mid slot, both are amarr, and both of them are pvp oriented.) The 5th highslot on the retrebution is useless on most setups due to the 4X medium pulse laser setup using too much fitting requirements to fit a nos. The vengence is pretty much the only PVP viable AF for amarr and must fit dual lights in order to fit any kind of tank. End
Rockbox
Posted - 2006.06.22 04:34:00 -
[774 ]
Originally by: The ArchWarder The vengence is pretty much the only PVP viable AF for amarr and must fit dual lights in order to fit any kind of tank. End and the Vengence still blows at pvp, even after the changes +1 pg ftw \o/ Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.22 04:59:00 -
[775 ]
Originally by: Rockbox Originally by: The ArchWarder The vengence is pretty much the only PVP viable AF for amarr and must fit dual lights in order to fit any kind of tank. End and the Vengence still blows at pvp, even after the changes +1 pg ftw \o/ what can you expect? we all know that Tux dont use any amarr ships by now. the change to the vengeance still doesnt make it a viable option or even a comparable option to the jaguar, wolf, enyo, ishkur, harpy or hawk. did you notice that none of those ships are amarr btw? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
The ArchWarder
Posted - 2006.06.22 05:09:00 -
[776 ]
Yes raising the PG by 1 is a joke. If the PG is gona get raised well then ffs raise it by at least 5 so that it actually makes a difference.
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.22 09:13:00 -
[777 ]
Originally by: The ArchWarder Yes raising the PG by 1 is a joke. If the PG is gona get raised well then ffs raise it by at least 5 so that it actually makes a difference. Exactly, it's easy to look on the market, Veangeance's price dropping down now, if it's a useful ship, the price wont drop that bad. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.22 12:20:00 -
[778 ]
Originally by: The ArchWarder Yes raising the PG by 1 is a joke. If the PG is gona get raised well then ffs raise it by at least 5 so that it actually makes a difference. i bet it was done so they could go back and say "look we did boost amarr" Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Rexy
Posted - 2006.06.22 18:31:00 -
[779 ]
Originally by: The ArchWarder 2: The thermal/EM dammage ratio to be adjusted due to the abundance of EANIIs ( looking at the 92% em resist on Mini t2 ships here aswell) moot point imo, ever tried breaking 2xinvul shieldtanks with t2 minny ammo doing mostly explossive and secondary kinetic?yes yes emp/pp works of course, but gives the same poor results as using something like hail/barrage in the end due to lower base damage.
Cruz
Posted - 2006.06.22 18:34:00 -
[780 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: The ArchWarder Yes raising the PG by 1 is a joke. If the PG is gona get raised well then ffs raise it by at least 5 so that it actually makes a difference. i bet it was done so they could go back and say "look we did boost amarr" Nah it was done because since they gave it another lowslot, you need at least 1 extra grid to fit most items. --------------------------- For the glory of the empire!
The ArchWarder
Posted - 2006.06.22 19:33:00 -
[781 ]
Originally by: Rexy moot point imo, ever tried breaking 2xinvul shieldtanks with t2 minny ammo doing mostly explossive and secondary kinetic?yes yes emp/pp works of course, but gives the same poor results as using something like hail/barrage in the end due to lower base damage. Good point however Minmitar, caldari and gallente ( drones) have the option of changing their ammo to deal therm or EM. Its harder for amarr because we dont have that option. Also another thing i wana see and it has already been covered. 4: reduce the cap use on energy wepons and get rid of the cap bonus to guns on all amarr ships and instead give us a real bonus. Minmitar and caldari use no cap on their wepons, gallente use drones and their hybrids dont use as much cap. All other races have 2 usefull bonuses on thier combat ships, why cant we?
The ArchWarder
Posted - 2006.06.22 19:35:00 -
[782 ]
By the above poste i mean amarr cant change their dammage to suite the situation like all other races can
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.22 19:40:00 -
[783 ]
Originally by: The ArchWarder 4: reduce the cap use on energy wepons and get rid of the cap bonus to guns on all amarr ships and instead give us a real bonus. Minmitar and caldari use no cap on their wepons, gallente use drones and their hybrids dont use as much cap. All other races have 2 usefull bonuses on thier combat ships, why cant we? Because lasers have basically already a damage mod build in. Compare beams with a 50% cap reduction vs similar rails with a 25% damage boost and you'll see that the dps and cap/s of both weapons is pretty much the same.
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.06.22 19:59:00 -
[784 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: The ArchWarder 4: reduce the cap use on energy wepons and get rid of the cap bonus to guns on all amarr ships and instead give us a real bonus. Minmitar and caldari use no cap on their wepons, gallente use drones and their hybrids dont use as much cap. All other races have 2 usefull bonuses on thier combat ships, why cant we? Because lasers have basically already a damage mod build in. Compare beams with a 50% cap reduction vs similar rails with a 25% damage boost and you'll see that the dps and cap/s of both weapons is pretty much the same. Read the thread. Seriously, there is TWENTY-SEVEN pages in this thread. I highly doubt no one can bring up anything NEW to this discussion and that's why we're now crying for dev response: We need a confirmation that this issue is being looked upon. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Ehker Gerete
Posted - 2006.06.22 20:34:00 -
[785 ]
Amarr is definitley broken. My friend flys an Omen. The PG is, for the most part, fine, when compared to what i can get on my thorax. He can get the grid for a rack of Focused Medium Pulses, Armor Rep, Assault Launcher (Which could be a Heavy grid-wise) and Afterburner. His problem is the CPU. Every module he has on it is the named one that uses less CPU, and he still needs WU3 and Electronics 4. IMO a 10% or 20% boost to CPU, and an extra 5m3 in the dronebay, would fix most of it. On my Thorax, I only need an RCU and named guns to fit a tank, MFS, MWD, and armor rep with the same skills. and the RCU is because of needing to fit a MWD and its 150PG usage. --------------My ideas on balancing nosferatu
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.22 20:41:00 -
[786 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Read the thread. Seriously, there is TWENTY-SEVEN pages in this thread. I highly doubt no one can bring up anything NEW to this discussion and that's why we're now crying for dev response: We need a confirmation that this issue is being looked upon. *blinks* I did. Did you? There are several (mostly pro-amarr I might add) post of mine in this one. Do the math and you will see what I wrote is correct.
Ehker Gerete
Posted - 2006.06.22 20:55:00 -
[787 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Ather Ialeas Read the thread. Seriously, there is TWENTY-SEVEN pages in this thread. I highly doubt no one can bring up anything NEW to this discussion and that's why we're now crying for dev response: We need a confirmation that this issue is being looked upon. *blinks* I did. Did you? There are several (mostly pro-amarr I might add) post of mine in this one. Do the math and you will see what I wrote is correct. 250mm Railgun: 2.75 Damage mod 10 Cap per shot 6.38 ROF Heavy Beam Laser: 3 Damage mod 21.67 Cap per shot 6 ROF 250mm with 25% damage boost: 3.4375 Damage mod 12.93 DPS with antimatter 10 cap per shot Heavy Beam Laser: 3x Damage mod 12 DPS with Multifrequency 10.835 cap per shot. That's about right, but the laser still has less damage and more cap usage. Laser with 10% bonus to damage: 3.3 Damage mod 13.2 DPS with Multifrequency 10.835 cap per shot. Mabye 10% more damage would work (along with better fitting for amarr ships) --------------My ideas on balancing nosferatu
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.22 22:55:00 -
[788 ]
Originally by: Ehker Gerete Mabye 10% more damage would work (along with better fitting for amarr ships) Jepp. Rails are a bit more effecient than lasers with the shipboni included, but not that much. Also, most amarr ships have better cap reg rates than gallente ones which negates some of the (still) higher cap/s need of lasers. Also, reloading (only should you need it during combat, of cource) can reduce the rail dps. Either way, halving the cap-need of lasers and giving amarr ships a 25% damage bonus on them would create a far far bigger imbalance in reverse than we have now, thats really not the solution. Originally by: Ehker Gerete My friend flys an Omen. The PG is, for the most part, fine, when compared to what i can get on my thorax. He can get the grid for a rack of Focused Medium Pulses, Armor Rep, Assault Launcher (Which could be a Heavy grid-wise) and Afterburner... Sure you are not comparing apples to oranges? Focussed pulse is about the same as electrons, heavy pulse about the same as ions and for neutrons there is no laser-equivalent (similar like there is no rail-equivalent for tachyons). And focused beams are the 200mm rail counterpart while heavy beams are the 250mm rail counterpart. You cannot really compare ions with focused beams, for example, those weapons are simply not equal to each other.
Ehker Gerete
Posted - 2006.06.23 00:47:00 -
[789 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Ehker Gerete Mabye 10% more damage would work (along with better fitting for amarr ships) Jepp. Rails are a bit more effecient than lasers with the shipboni included, but not that much. Also, most amarr ships have better cap reg rates than gallente ones which negates some of the (still) higher cap/s need of lasers. Also, reloading (only should you need it during combat, of cource) can reduce the rail dps. Either way, halving the cap-need of lasers and giving amarr ships a 25% damage bonus on them would create a far far bigger imbalance in reverse than we have now, thats really not the solution. Originally by: Ehker Gerete My friend flys an Omen. The PG is, for the most part, fine, when compared to what i can get on my thorax. He can get the grid for a rack of Focused Medium Pulses, Armor Rep, Assault Launcher (Which could be a Heavy grid-wise) and Afterburner... Sure you are not comparing apples to oranges? Focussed pulse is about the same as electrons, heavy pulse about the same as ions and for neutrons there is no laser-equivalent (similar like there is no rail-equivalent for tachyons). And focused beams are the 200mm rail counterpart while heavy beams are the 250mm rail counterpart. You cannot really compare ions with focused beams, for example, those weapons are simply not equal to each other. I'm more comparing 200mm's or electrons to focused beams If I want a rack of neutrons I need a rack of RCU, if he wants heavy pulses he needs RCU. If I use all 200mm or all heavy electrons, I don't need RCU. He needs a rack of RCU to fit all heavy pulses. My main point is that the CPU on the amarr ships is lacking, since I don't need all my modules to be named and WU3 with electronics 4 to get enough CPU, but he does. thats why I suggested a 10 or 20 percent CPU increase. My friend want's beams on his prophecy since the ship is a cross between a chicken and a slug, the range is preferred, but the CPU use of heavy launchers is killing the idea of having that. and with Engineering 5 he still needs an RCU for 5 heavy beams, a medium rep, and a 400mm plate. 230 PG rather than 250 might be better for medium beams. --------------My ideas on balancing nosferatu
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.23 01:35:00 -
[790 ]
Originally by: The ArchWarder 4: reduce the cap use on energy wepons and get rid of the cap bonus to guns on all amarr ships and instead give us a real bonus. Minmitar and caldari use no cap on their wepons, gallente use drones and their hybrids dont use as much cap. All other races have 2 usefull bonuses on thier combat ships, why cant we? or instead get rid the cap reduction, up the damage base of lasers,before the cap damage was balanced with t1 ammo, now with t2 ammo needs get up a bit
weedmasta
Posted - 2006.06.23 02:09:00 -
[791 ]
Edited by: weedmasta on 23/06/2006 02:14:55 Originally by: Xendie Originally by: The ArchWarder Yes raising the PG by 1 is a joke. If the PG is gona get raised well then ffs raise it by at least 5 so that it actually makes a difference. i bet it was done so they could go back and say "look we did boost amarr" I must say, though with regret, i agree edit: Please add second midslot to retribution, it is so useless without...(and please spare me the "it's good for pve" excuse) __________________________________________________
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.23 02:46:00 -
[792 ]
Originally by: Ehker Gerete Originally by: Aramendel *blinks* I did. Did you? There are several (mostly pro-amarr I might add) post of mine in this one. Do the math and you will see what I wrote is correct. 250mm Railgun: 2.75 Damage mod 10 Cap per shot 6.38 ROF Heavy Beam Laser: 3 Damage mod 21.67 Cap per shot 6 ROF 250mm with 25% damage boost: 3.4375 Damage mod 12.93 DPS with antimatter 10 cap per shot Heavy Beam Laser: 3x Damage mod 12 DPS with Multifrequency 10.835 cap per shot. That's about right, but the laser still has less damage and more cap usage. Laser with 10% bonus to damage: 3.3 Damage mod 13.2 DPS with Multifrequency 10.835 cap per shot. Mabye 10% more damage would work (along with better fitting for amarr ships) you forgot rails have more range than beams , i think 15% dmg instead 10 would be better
The ArchWarder
Posted - 2006.06.23 07:15:00 -
[793 ]
Even if the guns are similar in damage 'on hull', That is not the point. The point is that the base passive armour resists on most PVP ships are now up past 70% EM and 50% therm turning lasers into effective light shows but not much more.
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.23 10:51:00 -
[794 ]
Gah! We always end up talking about zero resistance damage dont we :(
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.23 11:05:00 -
[795 ]
Originally by: The ArchWarder Even if the guns are similar in damage 'on hull', That is not the point. The point is that the base passive armour resists on most PVP ships are now up past 70% EM and 50% therm turning lasers into effective light shows but not much more. the point is the big picture instead just one issue.
dabster
Posted - 2006.06.23 11:15:00 -
[796 ]
People who keeps on chanting "Matar can change damage types", seriously cant be flying Matari themselves. This is the most moot and over-exaggurated 'advantage' there is. It has absolute zero meaning in actual pvp 99% of the times, stop mentioning it ffs. Also, 10 seconds reload isnt exactly great you know. ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids; Click.
Andreask14
Posted - 2006.06.23 11:25:00 -
[797 ]
Edited by: Andreask14 on 23/06/2006 11:26:09 Not only that. While being the best of a few aspects of PvP a few years ago, this has tunred into the opposite for the amarr now.Check ECM: Amarr have fewest mid-slots and lowest sensor strength.Check Gank: You cant fit more than 3 heat sinks anymore, and all other races have their specific damage mods. Thus, laser damage on amarrian ships that dont have a RoF bonus is compareable to the damage of other race¦s ships with the same weapon category, while other races ship that also do have a damage/rof bonus actually put out MORE raw dmage than the amarrians do. Just try it and compare a stabber to an omen in quickfit and the tracking guide, and you will see that, if both ships are fitted for all short range gank with all slots used for t1 and with mwd, no ecm, the stabber does more damage to the omen at all ranges the weapons hit. That is without taking into account that the satbber has two missiles while omen has 1. The little increase in armour of the omen doesnt make up for this. Also, stabber is faster than omen, thus dictates the range, thus the omen cant force the fight to longer distance (of only 2 more km), where it could slightly out-do the stabber, that is without the missiles again, where the stabber always wins. Add on top of this that the omen will run out of cap during the fight, while the stabebr usese NO cap, and you know why nobody flys an omen.Check Sniping: Amarrian snipers dont have the range that other snipers can achive, and their guns deal primarily EM damage. With EM damage easily hardned to 80% with a hardenener, or even with the new passiv options as an all-inclusive, other snipers from all races, cept for the missiles, outdamage amarr. Furthermore, while the great optimal of amar mid-range lasers, and the option to accomodate the laser to the needed range helps amarrian firepower during t1 fights, this dosnt hold true with any t2 ammo. There are only 2 t2 crystals for each class, so you are either in range or you are not, the great advantage of always being fitting for the most damage your guns can deliver via an adjustable optimal, doesnt hold true for t2 anymore, diminishing your damage potential. Check tanking: In the glory days of the amarr, they were the kings of the passiv tank, because only their ships had built-in passiv resistances. With the new armor compansation skills cheaply available, EVERYONE can tank just like the amarian tanking bonuses do. If an amarr uses a passiv tank now, it will still be on top of the passiv tank of a ship that doesnt have the resistance bonuses, but only by a neglectable margin, thanks to diminishing returns. While this tank was their strong-point, due to cap needs for the weapons, all the amarr ships geared towards this design are no worthless and never flown. Best example is the Maller, it has become the bastard-child of all available cruisers, it really has nothing going for it anymore. Consequential, the bonus is worthless.Summary: All the above combined lead to the situation we have now, where amarrians use drones and missiles over lasers and tank, only to be able to play like the others in PvP, scince it is the only competitive way. Any amarrian ship not being able to do that is useless in close-range pvp, so only the arbitrator and its variants get used. 1 of the 2 BS is useless for fleet pvp, and the useful one is the worst of its kind. They are both inferior in close range combat to all other BS, because of slot distribution combined with the above reasons, making them inferior. PvP is mid-slot hvy, no question.Lastly , amarrian ships are the worst to rat in, thanks to not being able to adjust teh damage donw, and the weapons you fire are breaking your own tank, unlike with missiles, projectiles or hybrides. And NO this one NOS slot doesnt make up for it. Too bad there are so few amar-only players around, meaning that their interests are easily disrearded. ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.23 12:03:00 -
[798 ]
Originally by: dabster People who keeps on chanting "Matar can change damage types", seriously cant be flying Matari themselves. This is the most moot and over-exaggurated 'advantage' there is. It has absolute zero meaning in actual pvp 99% of the times, stop mentioning it ffs. Also, 10 seconds reload isnt exactly great you know. Hey there. Amarr bs lv5 and large beam spec and pulse spec lv4 here, and my tempest with named t1 guns and minmatar bs lv4 and large projectile lv4 still pwns my geddon. Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
BurnHard
Posted - 2006.06.23 13:02:00 -
[799 ]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: dabster People who keeps on chanting "Matar can change damage types", seriously cant be flying Matari themselves. This is the most moot and over-exaggurated 'advantage' there is. It has absolute zero meaning in actual pvp 99% of the times, stop mentioning it ffs. Also, 10 seconds reload isnt exactly great you know. Hey there. Amarr bs lv5 and large beam spec and pulse spec lv4 here, and my tempest with named t1 guns and minmatar bs lv4 and large projectile lv4 still pwns my geddon. I suppose it should too. Thats tier 1 v tier 2. Try doing an Apoc/Tempest or Geddon/Phoon comparison and then see what the results are. (I'm not having a go, just saying it might make a difference...).
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.06.23 13:14:00 -
[800 ]
Originally by: BurnHard I suppose it should too. Thats tier 1 v tier 2. Try doing an Apoc/Tempest or Geddon/Phoon comparison and then see what the results are. (I'm not having a go, just saying it might make a difference...). Apoc will most likely give out crappier raw DPS since it doesn't have weapon bonuses like Arma does making Apoc even more sucky in that retrospect. And Typhoon...well, I've seen only two players regularly fly those during my whole EVE career. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.23 13:14:00 -
[801 ]
Originally by: BurnHard Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: dabster People who keeps on chanting "Matar can change damage types", seriously cant be flying Matari themselves. This is the most moot and over-exaggurated 'advantage' there is. It has absolute zero meaning in actual pvp 99% of the times, stop mentioning it ffs. Also, 10 seconds reload isnt exactly great you know. Hey there. Amarr bs lv5 and large beam spec and pulse spec lv4 here, and my tempest with named t1 guns and minmatar bs lv4 and large projectile lv4 still pwns my geddon. I suppose it should too. Thats tier 1 v tier 2. Try doing an Apoc/Tempest or Geddon/Phoon comparison and then see what the results are. (I'm not having a go, just saying it might make a difference...). wrong tier 1 and tier2 only means different roles but if you try apoc / tempest i think the results will be much worse for the poor apoc :P
babyblue
Posted - 2006.06.23 13:15:00 -
[802 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: BurnHard I suppose it should too. Thats tier 1 v tier 2. Try doing an Apoc/Tempest or Geddon/Phoon comparison and then see what the results are. (I'm not having a go, just saying it might make a difference...). Apoc will most likely give out crappier raw DPS since it doesn't have weapon bonuses like Arma does making Apoc even more sucky in that retrospect. And Typhoon...well, I've seen only two players regularly fly those during my whole EVE career. Won't the apoc sustain it's tank for much longer, or won't that be enough to counter the DPS difference?
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.06.23 13:19:00 -
[803 ]
Originally by: babyblue Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: BurnHard I suppose it should too. Thats tier 1 v tier 2. Try doing an Apoc/Tempest or Geddon/Phoon comparison and then see what the results are. (I'm not having a go, just saying it might make a difference...). Apoc will most likely give out crappier raw DPS since it doesn't have weapon bonuses like Arma does making Apoc even more sucky in that retrospect. And Typhoon...well, I've seen only two players regularly fly those during my whole EVE career. Won't the apoc sustain it's tank for much longer, or won't that be enough to counter the DPS difference? Well the difference is being killed in ~30 seconds or in ~35 seconds. Lower DPS equals death in most cases, tanking just makes it a bit more time consuming for the foe but I hardly doubt someone would stop trying to kill you just because you have an ubertank. Most likely that someone would just call some friends to help and then wtfpwn you. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.23 13:20:00 -
[804 ]
Originally by: babyblue Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: BurnHard I suppose it should too. Thats tier 1 v tier 2. Try doing an Apoc/Tempest or Geddon/Phoon comparison and then see what the results are. (I'm not having a go, just saying it might make a difference...). Apoc will most likely give out crappier raw DPS since it doesn't have weapon bonuses like Arma does making Apoc even more sucky in that retrospect. And Typhoon...well, I've seen only two players regularly fly those during my whole EVE career. Won't the apoc sustain it's tank for much longer, or won't that be enough to counter the DPS difference? what tank? you already need 2 rcu t2 for taychons and 2 rcu t2 + pdu if you want use Large armor repair
babyblue
Posted - 2006.06.23 13:24:00 -
[805 ]
Originally by: Sniser Originally by: babyblue Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: BurnHard I suppose it should too. Thats tier 1 v tier 2. Try doing an Apoc/Tempest or Geddon/Phoon comparison and then see what the results are. (I'm not having a go, just saying it might make a difference...). Apoc will most likely give out crappier raw DPS since it doesn't have weapon bonuses like Arma does making Apoc even more sucky in that retrospect. And Typhoon...well, I've seen only two players regularly fly those during my whole EVE career. Won't the apoc sustain it's tank for much longer, or won't that be enough to counter the DPS difference? what tank? you already need 2 rcu t2 for taychons and 2 rcu t2 + pdu if you want use Large armor repair Okay you win, it's crap.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.23 13:46:00 -
[806 ]
Originally by: BurnHard Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: dabster People who keeps on chanting "Matar can change damage types", seriously cant be flying Matari themselves. This is the most moot and over-exaggurated 'advantage' there is. It has absolute zero meaning in actual pvp 99% of the times, stop mentioning it ffs. Also, 10 seconds reload isnt exactly great you know. Hey there. Amarr bs lv5 and large beam spec and pulse spec lv4 here, and my tempest with named t1 guns and minmatar bs lv4 and large projectile lv4 still pwns my geddon. I suppose it should too. Thats tier 1 v tier 2. Try doing an Apoc/Tempest or Geddon/Phoon comparison and then see what the results are. (I'm not having a go, just saying it might make a difference...). so why does a dominix have any chance against a Apoc then? domi is tier1 and apoc tier2 your logic is flawed Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.23 13:49:00 -
[807 ]
Originally by: Sniser what tank? you already need 2 rcu t2 for taychons and 2 rcu t2 + pdu if you want use Large armor repair but you can fit 8*800 AC and 2 Large T2 reps and 3 hardeners and 2 dmg mods on a apoc with no RCU2 or PDU2 and do equal to better dmg with less cap usage and do all dmg types. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Andreask14
Posted - 2006.06.23 13:52:00 -
[808 ]
You heard the man ! Fit projectiles on Amarrian BS, and they might beome competitive. Nice balance. ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
DanMck
Posted - 2006.06.23 14:16:00 -
[809 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 You heard the man ! Fit projectiles on Amarrian BS, and they might beome competitive. Nice balance. so the 6 months of training on lasers is a waste of time , i was told to pick caldari when i started the game but i liked pretty lights , dam those lights
korrey
Posted - 2006.06.23 14:50:00 -
[810 ]
Originally by: Xendie but you can fit 8*800 AC and 2 Large T2 reps and 3 hardeners and 2 dmg mods on a apoc with no RCU2 or PDU2 and do equal to better dmg with less cap usage and do all dmg types. Holy crap whats wrong with EVE...Look around you man. Thats the whole point of these 2,094 Amarr threads. The 'POINT' is that the best Amarr setups involve using AC's....thats screwed up. I see mallers with AC's, I see Prophs with AC's, I see Omens with AC's (Not very smart though). Everything is AC's. And to the Devs who never respond anyways, dont you think somethings wrong when -**AMARR**- arent using -**LASERS**- ? Amarr is a broken race. And its amazing that the devs dont seem to care at all. Im sure it wont affect there payroll but my $15 a month may drop. Its ghey when the race I spec in sucks so bad I have to go to another race.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.23 14:52:00 -
[811 ]
Originally by: korrey Originally by: Xendie but you can fit 8*800 AC and 2 Large T2 reps and 3 hardeners and 2 dmg mods on a apoc with no RCU2 or PDU2 and do equal to better dmg with less cap usage and do all dmg types. Holy crap whats wrong with EVE...Look around you man. Thats the whole point of these 2,094 Amarr threads. The 'POINT' is that the best Amarr setups involve using AC's....thats screwed up. I see mallers with AC's, I see Prophs with AC's, I see Omens with AC's (Not very smart though). Everything is AC's. And to the Devs who never respond anyways, dont you think somethings wrong when -**AMARR**- arent using -**LASERS**- ? Amarr is a broken race. And its amazing that the devs dont seem to care at all. Im sure it wont affect there payroll but my $15 a month may drop. Its ghey when the race I spec in sucks so bad I have to go to another race. thats pretty accurate and tux seems content with boosting gallente, caldari and minmatar and gives the suckiest amarr assault frigates 1 extra powergrid and 1 extra lowslot to fit something that takes only 1 powergrid so they can say that they actually boosted amarr, go figure. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Cudeiro
Posted - 2006.06.23 15:37:00 -
[812 ]
Originally by: Xendie thats pretty accurate and tux seems content with boosting gallente, caldari and minmatar and gives the suckiest amarr assault frigates 1 extra powergrid and 1 extra lowslot to fit something that takes only 1 powergrid so they can say that they actually boosted amarr, go figure. Those days are good to start with an ammar spec character, at time i got ammar titan 5 the problem hopefully will be solved. PD:My character is 2 month old PD2:excuse my crappy english "for the glory of General Tani"
Cruz
Posted - 2006.06.23 15:50:00 -
[813 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: The ArchWarder 4: reduce the cap use on energy wepons and get rid of the cap bonus to guns on all amarr ships and instead give us a real bonus. Minmitar and caldari use no cap on their wepons, gallente use drones and their hybrids dont use as much cap. All other races have 2 usefull bonuses on thier combat ships, why cant we? Because lasers have basically already a damage mod build in. Compare beams with a 50% cap reduction vs similar rails with a 25% damage boost and you'll see that the dps and cap/s of both weapons is pretty much the same. Thats true, Apoc with 8 megabeams is going to do roughly the same dps as Megathron with 7 425mms and they will use roughly the same cap with BS V. Except.. Apoc can't fit 8 megabeams without AWU while Megathron can fit 7 425mms. Again the problem with Amarr ships IMO is not lasers themselves, but its fitting issues with the ships. And the Apoc needs its useless 5% cap bonus changed to a 5% resists bonus imho. --------------------------- For the glory of the empire!
Exogene
Posted - 2006.06.23 16:00:00 -
[814 ]
Fitting issues is just part of the problem. Things said about amarr: Capmonster...lie PGmonster...lie Best Tank...lie No ammo or reload...lame excuse which is very very irrelevant if you are doing crap damage
Methuselar
Posted - 2006.06.23 16:55:00 -
[815 ]
Slavery helps EVE life --lie Religion helps EVE life --lie
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.23 17:02:00 -
[816 ]
Originally by: Exogene No ammo or reload...lame excuse which is very very irrelevant if you are doing crap damage Not to mention that you lose 70-ish millions worth of crystals when your ship dies. Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.06.23 17:07:00 -
[817 ]
Originally by: Cruz Except.. Apoc can't fit 8 megabeams without AWU while Megathron can fit 7 425mms. Long range Mega is the easiest sniper to fit by a large margin. NB.
Anal awereness
Posted - 2006.06.23 17:26:00 -
[818 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: babyblue Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: BurnHard I suppose it should too. Thats tier 1 v tier 2. Try doing an Apoc/Tempest or Geddon/Phoon comparison and then see what the results are. (I'm not having a go, just saying it might make a difference...). Apoc will most likely give out crappier raw DPS since it doesn't have weapon bonuses like Arma does making Apoc even more sucky in that retrospect. And Typhoon...well, I've seen only two players regularly fly those during my whole EVE career. Won't the apoc sustain it's tank for much longer, or won't that be enough to counter the DPS difference? Well the difference is being killed in ~30 seconds or in ~35 seconds. Lower DPS equals death in most cases, tanking just makes it a bit more time consuming for the foe but I hardly doubt someone would stop trying to kill you just because you have an ubertank. Most likely that someone would just call some friends to help and then wtfpwn you. I see, i see. So tanking just makes it a bit more time consuming...i see. Yes very very doubtull that having and ubertank would stop someone from trying to kill you. And offcourse lets not forget that pvp = dps. Raven keeps proving this, its a true dps machine, or not...maybe boost the raven. And offcourse there is no point in tanking, because people just keep getting friends making tanking absolute. You know if tanking is so crap, why does this thread exist? Because everyone has such high resistance aka tank. BUT omfgwtfbbq isnt tanking crap And dont reply with the words "please read the thread", because i did but c'mon thats bull****. A apoc with dual large rep injector and some Megapulse 2 damn that tanks and deals good damage for such a tank. I think raven vs apoc, the apoc has a very very good chance. ---------------------- are you aw3re?
Exogene
Posted - 2006.06.23 18:25:00 -
[819 ]
Originally by: Anal awereness Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: babyblue Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: BurnHard I suppose it should too. Thats tier 1 v tier 2. Try doing an Apoc/Tempest or Geddon/Phoon comparison and then see what the results are. (I'm not having a go, just saying it might make a difference...). Apoc will most likely give out crappier raw DPS since it doesn't have weapon bonuses like Arma does making Apoc even more sucky in that retrospect. And Typhoon...well, I've seen only two players regularly fly those during my whole EVE career. Won't the apoc sustain it's tank for much longer, or won't that be enough to counter the DPS difference? Well the difference is being killed in ~30 seconds or in ~35 seconds. Lower DPS equals death in most cases, tanking just makes it a bit more time consuming for the foe but I hardly doubt someone would stop trying to kill you just because you have an ubertank. Most likely that someone would just call some friends to help and then wtfpwn you. I see, i see. So tanking just makes it a bit more time consuming...i see. Yes very very doubtull that having and ubertank would stop someone from trying to kill you. And offcourse lets not forget that pvp = dps. Raven keeps proving this, its a true dps machine, or not...maybe boost the raven. And offcourse there is no point in tanking, because people just keep getting friends making tanking absolute. You know if tanking is so crap, why does this thread exist? Because everyone has such high resistance aka tank. BUT omfgwtfbbq isnt tanking crap And dont reply with the words "please read the thread", because i did but c'mon thats bull****. A apoc with dual large rep injector and some Megapulse 2 damn that tanks and deals good damage for such a tank. I think raven vs apoc, the apoc has a very very good chance. The apoc tank won't last as long as the Raven tank. That is your problem, you think but you don't know ****, excuse my french. Raven shield tank beats an apoc anyday not to mention that the raven does more damage, i have seen it tested, i have seen it happen in the battlefield. Why do you think everyone keeps using Raven for lvl4s? It's the best tank out there right now (tier 1/2) and prolly the only tier 1/2 BS that can solo lvl4 missions without having to warp out...You SHOULD read the thread but more over you should have first hand knowledge of the performance of these ships instead of posting your "I think" bull****.
Anal awereness
Posted - 2006.06.23 19:52:00 -
[820 ]
Originally by: Exogene The apoc tank won't last as long as the Raven tank. That is your problem, you think but you don't know ****, excuse my french. /off topic Problem is, everytime a guy disagrees in these threads he gets flamed to the ground, called a frenchboy and told he doesnt know ****. I have never seen such an unfriendly discussion before. Just being plain rude. /back on topic That guy said that tanking basicly is crap. I replied saying: isnt that the source of the entire problem people tanking EM/THERM. I just found that odd, thats all. ---------------------- are you aw3re?
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.23 21:24:00 -
[821 ]
Originally by: Anal awereness Originally by: Exogene The apoc tank won't last as long as the Raven tank. That is your problem, you think but you don't know ****, excuse my french. /off topic Problem is, everytime a guy disagrees in these threads he gets flamed to the ground, called a frenchboy and told he doesnt know ****. I have never seen such an unfriendly discussion before. Just being plain rude. /back on topic That guy said that tanking basicly is crap. I replied saying: isnt that the source of the entire problem people tanking EM/THERM. I just found that odd, thats all. what do you expect with a name like anal awareness and comes here and have no clue what you are talking about? especially since you said that you didnt bother reading the earlier posts in the thread. btw.. isnt your name against the naming conventions somehow?, atleast i find your name very offensive mr alt. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.06.23 21:53:00 -
[822 ]
Xendie, take a chill pill Despite his a bit offensive nick I think we had a nice discussion going in here. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Ehker Gerete
Posted - 2006.06.23 22:31:00 -
[823 ]
Originally by: Anal awereness Originally by: Exogene The apoc tank won't last as long as the Raven tank. That is your problem, you think but you don't know ****, excuse my french. /off topic Problem is, everytime a guy disagrees in these threads he gets flamed to the ground, called a frenchboy and told he doesnt know ****. I have never seen such an unfriendly discussion before. Just being plain rude. /back on topic That guy said that tanking basicly is crap. I replied saying: isnt that the source of the entire problem people tanking EM/THERM. I just found that odd, thats all. EM and thermal are the lowest resists on shield, and are looked at first to make sure they get to 50 or 60. EM and thermal are the highest on armor, and all it takes is a few EAN's to bring it up to 60/70. once i dueled a my friends omen in my armor tanking thorax, the shields went down instantly, but he barley scratched my armor. --------------My ideas on balancing nosferatu
Amanda Zeherah
Posted - 2006.06.24 00:21:00 -
[824 ]
These were my thoughts while reading the 28 pages-topic:LOL what a noob (the OP)... surely he does not know the devastating power of lazors Anyway I kept reading this topic to stay in touch of my beloved and specialisING race... the powerful and superior AmarrHmmmm... topic seems to suggest the all-mighty lazor sucks... Nah... its a lie... those fools...Ohhhh... some convincing data that the Amarrian ships and lazors I'm specialising in REALLY sucks... Having played purely Amarr for nearly 9 months now... I realised Im the inexperience fool... but how could it be? Something is really wrong..OMG OMG OMG... Lazors sucks... Amarr sucks... The ships Im specialised in sucks... MY 9 month old character sucks...THIS GAME SUCKS!!! My eyes are bleeding... where are those devs!!! Someone please tell me I havent wasted nearly 4 months worth of training to be an AMMARIAN specialist...
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.24 00:40:00 -
[825 ]
Originally by: Amanda Zeherah MY 9 month old character sucks...THIS GAME SUCKS!!![/b] I think you would find that some of the Amarrians here are older than 9 months. Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.24 01:05:00 -
[826 ]
Originally by: Amanda Zeherah These were my thoughts while reading the 28 pages-topic:LOL what a noob (the OP)... surely he does not know the devastating power of lazors Anyway I kept reading this topic to stay in touch of my beloved and specialisING race... the powerful and superior AmarrHmmmm... topic seems to suggest the all-mighty lazor sucks... Nah... its a lie... those fools...Ohhhh... some convincing data that the Amarrian ships and lazors I'm specialising in REALLY sucks... Having played purely Amarr for nearly 9 months now... I realised Im the inexperience fool... but how could it be? Something is really wrong..OMG OMG OMG... Lazors sucks... Amarr sucks... The ships Im specialised in sucks... MY 9 month old character sucks...THIS GAME SUCKS!!! My eyes are bleeding... where are those devs!!! Someone please tell me I havent wasted nearly 4 months worth of training to be an AMMARIAN specialist... the op has all amarr ship skills bar command ships to L5, he also had small and medium pulse and beam spec to5 and large pulse and beam spec to 4. furthermore the op has done pvp for a couple of years in his amarr ships. i do think that the op has some clue on amarr ships. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Dano Sarum
Posted - 2006.06.24 04:36:00 -
[827 ]
28 pages now and still no DEV response... meh.
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.06.24 05:46:00 -
[828 ]
Originally by: Dano Sarum 28 pages now and still no DEV response... meh. Im as dissapointed as many around here And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Amanda Zeherah
Posted - 2006.06.24 08:20:00 -
[829 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Amanda Zeherah These were my thoughts while reading the 28 pages-topic:LOL what a noob (the OP)... surely he does not know the devastating power of lazors Anyway I kept reading this topic to stay in touch of my beloved and specialisING race... the powerful and superior AmarrHmmmm... topic seems to suggest the all-mighty lazor sucks... Nah... its a lie... those fools...Ohhhh... some convincing data that the Amarrian ships and lazors I'm specialising in REALLY sucks... Having played purely Amarr for nearly 9 months now... I realised Im the inexperience fool... but how could it be? Something is really wrong..OMG OMG OMG... Lazors sucks... Amarr sucks... The ships Im specialised in sucks... MY 9 month old character sucks...THIS GAME SUCKS!!! My eyes are bleeding... where are those devs!!! Someone please tell me I havent wasted nearly 4 months worth of training to be an AMMARIAN specialist... the op has all amarr ship skills bar command ships to L5, he also had small and medium pulse and beam spec to5 and large pulse and beam spec to 4. furthermore the op has done pvp for a couple of years in his amarr ships. i do think that the op has some clue on amarr ships. My previous post was about my thoughts (in bold) when I started reading the OP until the end... I thought the OP was a joke and lazors were balanced... noobie me... However responses from other players strongly suggest that Amarr technology is getting out-dated/behind the other races... Hopefully by the time my 9 month old character is ready for PvP, this issue would be solved/improved... otherwise im stuffed... badly screwed... well all pure Amarrs are/will... In the end, I dont think my upcoming Absolution ship will be the beast I was hoping for...
DarkPanther
Posted - 2006.06.24 10:13:00 -
[830 ]
can ccp please remove that 5th high slot on the Retribution and give me another middle slot ,
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.24 10:14:00 -
[831 ]
Originally by: Amanda Zeherah Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Amanda Zeherah These were my thoughts while reading the 28 pages-topic:LOL what a noob (the OP)... surely he does not know the devastating power of lazors Anyway I kept reading this topic to stay in touch of my beloved and specialisING race... the powerful and superior AmarrHmmmm... topic seems to suggest the all-mighty lazor sucks... Nah... its a lie... those fools...Ohhhh... some convincing data that the Amarrian ships and lazors I'm specialising in REALLY sucks... Having played purely Amarr for nearly 9 months now... I realised Im the inexperience fool... but how could it be? Something is really wrong..OMG OMG OMG... Lazors sucks... Amarr sucks... The ships Im specialised in sucks... MY 9 month old character sucks...THIS GAME SUCKS!!! My eyes are bleeding... where are those devs!!! Someone please tell me I havent wasted nearly 4 months worth of training to be an AMMARIAN specialist... the op has all amarr ship skills bar command ships to L5, he also had small and medium pulse and beam spec to5 and large pulse and beam spec to 4. furthermore the op has done pvp for a couple of years in his amarr ships. i do think that the op has some clue on amarr ships. My previous post was about my thoughts (in bold) when I started reading the OP until the end... I thought the OP was a joke and lazors were balanced... noobie me... However responses from other players strongly suggest that Amarr technology is getting out-dated/behind the other races... Hopefully by the time my 9 month old character is ready for PvP, this issue would be solved/improved... otherwise im stuffed... badly screwed... well all pure Amarrs are/will... In the end, I dont think my upcoming Absolution ship will be the beast I was hoping for... absolution is a pretty nice machine, but we werent talking the pimped T2 ships here but the basic tech1 ships wich are in a shamble due to crappy overall balancing of the game. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Exogene
Posted - 2006.06.24 11:23:00 -
[832 ]
Originally by: Anal awereness And dont reply with the words "please read the thread", because i did but c'mon thats bull****. Hmm you are calling me rude? If the thread is bull**** as per your words I would suggest you stop posting on this thread or take the flame for your ignorance.
Denrace
Posted - 2006.06.24 12:24:00 -
[833 ]
Explosive crystals please Den ________________________________________
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.24 13:35:00 -
[834 ]
Edited by: Mahavy Seth on 24/06/2006 13:37:24 What about modifgy amarr weapons cap bonus into a 12% cap usage per level instead of 10? And also increase all base amarr ships capacitor by 5% or 8%? You will give a boost, stay in balance, do not give the same used to be DAMAGE BOOST that all pray always for, and stay in line with amarr philosophy of tanking and NOS ships. Also, may be a good thing to make t2 crystals last nearly forever. In my opinion this will solve the problem without adding another pathetic damage boost... Edited: one of the major problem peoples seem to whine at, is the fact that amarr ships use a ship bonus for a "bonus" that do not truly is a bonus... 10% is not suffice for be compared with a +5% damage of other races.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.24 14:34:00 -
[835 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Edited by: Mahavy Seth on 24/06/2006 13:37:24 What about modifgy amarr weapons cap bonus into a 12% cap usage per level instead of 10? And also increase all base amarr ships capacitor by 5% or 8%? You will give a boost, stay in balance, do not give the same used to be DAMAGE BOOST that all pray always for, and stay in line with amarr philosophy of tanking and NOS ships. Also, may be a good thing to make t2 crystals last nearly forever. In my opinion this will solve the problem without adding another pathetic damage boost... Edited: one of the major problem peoples seem to whine at, is the fact that amarr ships use a ship bonus for a "bonus" that do not truly is a bonus... 10% is not suffice for be compared with a +5% damage of other races. you would still do better dmg and tank better with a full rack of autocannons then with a rack of megapulses. fittings need to go down cap use needs to go down, the reasons for adding the high cap usage and the bonus to cap usage is gone as i doubt we will see oldschool scorps wtfpwn with their tachyons. dmg needs to go up slightly by either swapping EM/thermal ratios or add the explosive crystals that were slated for release until all gallente and caldari and minmatars spammed the forums against it. Apoc will still not be a dmg beast so it will need a new resist bonus or some kind of armor bonus to take its place as tanker doing decent dmg as it should be. small and medium sized beams and pulses needs their fittings sorted as almost all T1 frigs and cruisers for amarr works better with autocannons then what they should use. the same goes for Prophecy. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.24 15:38:00 -
[836 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Mahavy Seth Edited by: Mahavy Seth on 24/06/2006 13:37:24 What about modifgy amarr weapons cap bonus into a 12% cap usage per level instead of 10? And also increase all base amarr ships capacitor by 5% or 8%? You will give a boost, stay in balance, do not give the same used to be DAMAGE BOOST that all pray always for, and stay in line with amarr philosophy of tanking and NOS ships. Also, may be a good thing to make t2 crystals last nearly forever. In my opinion this will solve the problem without adding another pathetic damage boost... Edited: one of the major problem peoples seem to whine at, is the fact that amarr ships use a ship bonus for a "bonus" that do not truly is a bonus... 10% is not suffice for be compared with a +5% damage of other races. you would still do better dmg and tank better with a full rack of autocannons then with a rack of megapulses. fittings need to go down cap use needs to go down, the reasons for adding the high cap usage and the bonus to cap usage is gone as i doubt we will see oldschool scorps wtfpwn with their tachyons. dmg needs to go up slightly by either swapping EM/thermal ratios or add the explosive crystals that were slated for release until all gallente and caldari and minmatars spammed the forums against it. Apoc will still not be a dmg beast so it will need a new resist bonus or some kind of armor bonus to take its place as tanker doing decent dmg as it should be. small and medium sized beams and pulses needs their fittings sorted as almost all T1 frigs and cruisers for amarr works better with autocannons then what they should use. the same goes for Prophecy. Why always run for damage?... with a 10% bonus to base cap, apocalytpse go to 8250 max cap, and with a 12% / 13% cap usage bonus, apoc will consume even less cap... Fitting 4 energy neutralizer do not allow you to do more damage but hit enemies even more hard I think
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.24 15:46:00 -
[837 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Fitting 4 energy neutralizer do not allow you to do more damage but hit enemies even more hard I think It doesnt matter. Because an autopest would still kill of an apocs tank in no time, and the apoc damage output would be too slow to kill of the tempest. Same goes with raven, and I'm sure other ships.
Scary Noises
Posted - 2006.06.24 18:31:00 -
[838 ]
I'm really starting to dislike CCP consistently throwing out new features ahead of fixing their existing content.
G Dabak
Posted - 2006.06.24 19:32:00 -
[839 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Edited: one of the major problem peoples seem to whine at, is the fact that amarr ships use a ship bonus for a "bonus" that do not truly is a bonus... 10% is not suffice for be compared with a +5% damage of other races. The other problem is that while other races' ships do need that damage bonus, some get away with having no damage bonus (Scorpion, Ferox) and make up for it in other ways. An Amarr laser combat ship MUST have the cap use bonus or it will be crippled.
Zeldra Han
Posted - 2006.06.24 19:39:00 -
[840 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth You will give a boost, stay in balance, do not give the same used to be DAMAGE BOOST that all pray always for, and stay in line with amarr philosophy of tanking and NOS ships. Also, may be a good thing to make t2 crystals last nearly forever. Isnt doing alot of damage part of the amarr philosophy at the dispense of less sensor strength?
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.24 20:29:00 -
[841 ]
Originally by: G Dabak Originally by: Mahavy Seth Edited: one of the major problem peoples seem to whine at, is the fact that amarr ships use a ship bonus for a "bonus" that do not truly is a bonus... 10% is not suffice for be compared with a +5% damage of other races. The other problem is that while other races' ships do need that damage bonus, some get away with having no damage bonus (Scorpion, Ferox) and make up for it in other ways. An Amarr laser combat ship MUST have the cap use bonus or it will be crippled. Listen, boosting amarr damage is a circle solution. After that cadlari whine will begin, or gallente or minmatar... like happened in past. Also, I have readed nearly all topics of this post, and I am sure that Amarr are not so crap. If I must say somethings that are truly unbalancing and "crap", and need to be fixed: 1. The 10% bonus to laser fire is not a bonus, cause even with BS lvl5 laser cap consumption is still slight bigger than hybrid turrets, so it is like as if gallente get a built in 50% cap usage bonus on weapons and still have tracking / damage / rof bonus. Laser weapon is unique of amarr. We need just a 12% or 13% bonus to cap usage per level. In this manner it will be a true bonus. 2. Crystals, even T2, must last nearly forever. We DONATE to EvE a ship bonus on ALL of our ships for let our laser weapons just function ! That fine and particular! I like it, but let us take the advantage of be the only one who are using these ONLY ENERGY weapons (no ammo at all). 3. About resistence, EM and Thermal is ok for lasers. Just put it some crystals that do massive thermal only. Three points that for me solve the question. Asking for more damage mean: easy solution to the problem.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.24 20:43:00 -
[842 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 24/06/2006 20:44:15 Originally by: Mahavy Seth 2. Crystals, even T2, must last nearly forever. Er...no. Perhaps if they would cost 5-10 times as much as now. And they would because that would be needed to balance them. Right now people who use them are more the opposite opinion, they last *too long*. Having to drag 70 mil in crystals to each fleet battle as BS doesn't sound like much fun.
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.24 23:54:00 -
[843 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 24/06/2006 20:44:15 Originally by: Mahavy Seth 2. Crystals, even T2, must last nearly forever. Er...no. Perhaps if they would cost 5-10 times as much as now. And they would because that would be needed to balance them. Right now people who use them are more the opposite opinion, they last *too long*. Having to drag 70 mil in crystals to each fleet battle as BS doesn't sound like much fun. Well, that can be discussed...
Deva Blackfire
Posted - 2006.06.24 23:57:00 -
[844 ]
As T2 crystal BPO owner i must oppose you in that one :) J/k :) Honestly t2 crystals should have LESS shots (abt 100) and the number of units produced be raised 10x (so price may drop 10x). Then at least some ppl could afford to use them in fleet engagements (as it is now Aurora L costs more than t2 tachy).
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.25 00:02:00 -
[845 ]
It doesn't matter how long a thread is - in case you hadn't noticed after the Carrier incident/insults towards tux he's kept a very low profile in ships & mods besides responding to a couple of bugs. You don't need a dev post for every thread in this forum :/TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.25 00:05:00 -
[846 ]
i just bought some t2 aurora and gleam Large crystals for my fleet gedon, 50 mil woot !!!!! My ammo almost costs as much as my ship :D As for amarr, well we are suppose to be kings of dmg and tank, we arent suppose to nos, that role is reserved for whatever faction the bhaalgorn belongs to, if we are suppose to nos then why do we have so many turret slots ? Apoc cap bonus is nice, but whats the point when most heavy tank setups have a cap injector ? What is so special about the apocs tank ? Oh we have alot of cap .... right .... so we loose our ships before we run out of cap, sounds uber to me. The fact of the matter still remains, a dual armor rep on an apoc is the SAME tank as any other BS with a dual armor rep. My gedon does MORE dmg and has the same tank as my apoc, maybe a PVE apoc is better, but in PVP the tank isnt so great. The cap bonus would be perfect for a shield tanking ship , but the apoc is an armor tanker, if you want the apoc to tank better then the bonus needs to be chaged to a resistance bonus :)
Gariuys
Posted - 2006.06.25 00:11:00 -
[847 ]
Lovely thread guys, please keep all amarr related whines in this thread, so the rest of the forum is usefull, and all the crap ehm... interesting suggestion i mean is collected in a single thread.
Tsual
Posted - 2006.06.25 00:13:00 -
[848 ]
Edited by: Tsual on 25/06/2006 00:14:06 All this pages and only sand throwing. Well the only thing I can see after 30 minutes dps-mod (damage mod/rof) number crunching wiht the database for t1 base long range turrets: small: (75 mm not taken into account as neihter projectiles nor lasers have an appropriate counterpart) 125mm railgun : 0.615 +25% damage bonus: 0.769 dual light beam: 0.625 +25% damage bonus: 0.781 250 light artillery: 0.470 +25% damage bonus:0.588 150mm railgun: 0.647 +25% damage bonus: 0.808 medium beam: 0.75 +25% damage bonus: 0.938 280 howitzer: 0.547 +25% damage bonus: 0.684 medium: dual 150mm railgun:0.385 +25% damage bonus: 0.481) quad light beam: 0.476 (+25% damage bonus: 0.595) 200mm railgun: 0.410 +25% damage bonus: 0.5125 focused medium: 0.417 (+25% damage bonus: 0.513) 650mm artillery: 0.314 +25% damage bonus: 0.393 250mm railgun: 0.431 +25% damage bonus: 0.516 heavy beam: 0.5 (+25% damage bonus: 0.625) 720 mm howitzer: 0.365 +25% damage bonus: 0.456 large: dual 250mm railgun: 0.256 +25% damage bonus: 0.32 dual heavy beam: 0.277 +25% damage bonus: 0.346 350mm railgun: 0.274 +25% damage bonus: 0.3425 mega beam: 0.333 +25% damage bonus: 0.417 1200mm Artillery: 0.209 +25% damage bonus: 0.261 425mm railgun: 0.288 +25% damage bonus: 0.36 Tachyon beam: 0.36 +25% damage bonus: 0.45 1400mm howitzer: 0.24 +25% damage bonus: 0.3 personal conclusion: One can see that all light, medium as well as from large the dual heavy beam lasers the base dps modificator is not that supperior to equal 5% damage to hybrids damage per level. Exceptions to this are only the Mega beam and the Tachyon laser as their dps modificators is equal to the appropriate large railgun dps modificator plus 25% more damage bonus gotten from ship. [However this might overpower the omen as well as executioner ...] Additional quad light beam and focuse medium beam laser dps mod seem to be exchanged. I personally would suggest a decrease in rof of beam lasers as a damage increase might even more give them an alpha strike character - which imho minmatars should be masters of. Someone noted that racial fighting stiles might have changed recently.******************** Moral is only usefull so far as society demands it from one to accept his presence.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.25 00:43:00 -
[849 ]
Tsual, you forgot the part where you cannot use small sized beams on frigate sized amarr ships. they are only usable on cruisers due to silly fittings. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Zeldra Han
Posted - 2006.06.25 01:16:00 -
[850 ]
Originally by: Tsual Edited by: Tsual on 25/06/2006 00:16:38 Edited by: Tsual on 25/06/2006 00:14:06 All this pages and only sand throwing. Well the only thing I can see after 30 minutes dps-mod (damage mod/rof) number crunching wiht the database for t1 base long range turrets: small: (75 mm not taken into account as neihter projectiles nor lasers have an appropriate counterpart) 125mm railgun : 0.615 +25% damage bonus: 0.769 dual light beam: 0.625 +25% damage bonus: 0.781 250 light artillery: 0.470 +25% damage bonus:0.588 150mm railgun: 0.647 +25% damage bonus: 0.808 medium beam: 0.75 +25% damage bonus: 0.938 280 howitzer: 0.547 +25% damage bonus: 0.684 medium: dual 150mm railgun:0.385 +25% damage bonus: 0.481) quad light beam: 0.476 (+25% damage bonus: 0.595) 200mm railgun: 0.410 +25% damage bonus: 0.5125 focused medium: 0.417 (+25% damage bonus: 0.513) 650mm artillery: 0.314 +25% damage bonus: 0.393 250mm railgun: 0.431 +25% damage bonus: 0.516 heavy beam: 0.5 (+25% damage bonus: 0.625) 720 mm howitzer: 0.365 +25% damage bonus: 0.456 large: dual 250mm railgun: 0.256 +25% damage bonus: 0.32 dual heavy beam: 0.277 +25% damage bonus: 0.346 350mm railgun: 0.274 +25% damage bonus: 0.3425 mega beam: 0.333 +25% damage bonus: 0.417 1200mm Artillery: 0.209 +25% damage bonus: 0.261 425mm railgun: 0.288 +25% damage bonus: 0.36 Tachyon beam: 0.36 +25% damage bonus: 0.45 1400mm howitzer: 0.24 +25% damage bonus: 0.3 personal conclusion: One can see that all light, medium as well as from large the dual heavy beam lasers the base dps modificator is not that supperior to equal 5% damage to hybrids damage per level. Exceptions to this are only the Mega beam and the Tachyon laser as their dps modificators is equal to the appropriate large railgun dps modificator plus 25% more damage bonus gotten from ship. [However this might overpower the omen as well as executioner ...] Additional quad light beam and focuse medium beam laser dps mod seem to be exchanged. I personally would suggest a decrease in rof of beam lasers as a damage increase might even more give them an alpha strike character - which imho minmatars should be masters of. Someone noted that racial fighting stiles might have changed recently. (quote me in a new thread op if you think this is so eminent that it needs to be rubbed under tux's nose) amarr ships have a cap bonus where other ships have a damage bonus everything not amarr will end up having more damage
G Dabak
Posted - 2006.06.25 01:46:00 -
[851 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Originally by: G Dabak Originally by: Mahavy Seth Edited: one of the major problem peoples seem to whine at, is the fact that amarr ships use a ship bonus for a "bonus" that do not truly is a bonus... 10% is not suffice for be compared with a +5% damage of other races. The other problem is that while other races' ships do need that damage bonus, some get away with having no damage bonus (Scorpion, Ferox) and make up for it in other ways. An Amarr laser combat ship MUST have the cap use bonus or it will be crippled. Listen, boosting amarr damage is a circle solution. After that cadlari whine will begin, or gallente or minmatar... like happened in past. Also, I have readed nearly all topics of this post, and I am sure that Amarr are not so crap. If I must say somethings that are truly unbalancing and "crap", and need to be fixed: 1. The 10% bonus to laser fire is not a bonus, cause even with BS lvl5 laser cap consumption is still slight bigger than hybrid turrets, so it is like as if gallente get a built in 50% cap usage bonus on weapons and still have tracking / damage / rof bonus. Laser weapon is unique of amarr. We need just a 12% or 13% bonus to cap usage per level. In this manner it will be a true bonus. 2. Crystals, even T2, must last nearly forever. We DONATE to EvE a ship bonus on ALL of our ships for let our laser weapons just function ! That fine and particular! I like it, but let us take the advantage of be the only one who are using these ONLY ENERGY weapons (no ammo at all). 3. About resistence, EM and Thermal is ok for lasers. Just put it some crystals that do massive thermal only. Three points that for me solve the question. Asking for more damage mean: easy solution to the problem. Oh, I was never suggesting boosting damage. Just complaining about how lasers make it impossible to have a laser-primary ship with two real bonuses no matter what those bonuses are or how they compare with other ships. I don't even know how you'd fix it without ruining balance or the specialness of lasers, but it bothers me sometimes. I do agree with your points, though.
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.25 04:54:00 -
[852 ]
I hate the they are just "whinners" comments, be constructive. I think Amarr need some sort of boost because our tanks and/or damage aren't what they used to be relative to other factions. Other people have probably posted better ideas, so just stick those into the argument where you see fit. We could do a laser fix with some sort of base damage boost to counter other factions' boosts and EAM t2s OR a cap use decrease on lasers (other factions fitting them issue pops up again) OR some sort of ships' bonuses changes. I would also like to see a few crystals with a boost in their thermal damage. You could mix bits of these together to get the best fix, but that strikes me as a potential balancing and coding nightmare. The other solution would be to address the tanking issue, cap injectors, other factions' gun use cap decrease, fitting issues, and EAM t2s all have made other factions able to tank close to (or better than) Amarr ships while doing much better damage (and getting more mid slots to boot). A resist buff, an major HP buff, a big cap boost, or bonus changes could put Amarr back on top of tanking while doing their less sustainible (and potentialy better resisted) damage so that balance would return. We sometimes get told that being better off using ACs and rails is an advantage, rather than an indication lasers, both beam (esp beam) and pulse are just (slightly?) lacking. If Gallente had to fit ACs to have a decent close range setup the forum would be swamped with complaints. People with extremely high sp say we're fine, even though they haven't touched t1 ships in a while, or if they have, their fitting skills and ship class skills and better equipment help them to better be able to fit armor and guns and do balanced damage, or have not met someone of their skill and similar setup in a battle lately. The resist question, cap use question, and ship bonuses make base dps comparisions less useful than they were in the past. How long different factions' ships can tank damage while still being able to do enough sustainable damage to kill eachother is though/impossible question to figure out. We may have to trust our ingame experiences along with number crunching to identify the size of the gap. Our medium and small beam lasers (and some pulses) aren't *****ble in any reasonalbe way on their intended ships making them lacking when compared to some of their other faction counterparts with similar weapon setups. Tachs and Mega beams require fitting mods to fit, which reduces their tanks and/or damage, this issue may hamper them in fleet combat relative to other factions. But when fixing that issue you need to balance relative alpha strikes and dps. Overall the gap isn't huge, but it is there, we aren't posting (or "whinning") for no good reason. It would be a waste of my time and energy which I highly value. Amarr need some help, they aren't masters of their old roles anymore, they don't gank well enough anymore, and they certainly don't tank like before. Could you find some balanced setups and ship? Sure, but that doesn't make the whole faction balanced. Amarr have been left behind and need help.
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.06.25 05:00:00 -
[853 ]
Oh, the above doesn't mean that Galente, Caldari, and Minnatar don't need some stuff fixed. I know they do.
Shugo Kazuma
Posted - 2006.06.25 05:30:00 -
[854 ]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Honestly t2 crystals should have LESS shots (abt 100) and the number of units produced be raised 10x (so price may drop 10x). Rather, I think t2 crystals should have a set amount of shots that you can see, rather than the whole, well, it might last 100 shots, but if might last 1000 shots, we don't know since it will randomly take damage from fireing (I'm assuming that's how it works still, I can't use them, so I didn't follow if they changed the way it works). They should just drop the cap use of all lasers by 50% and redo that whole cap use bonus on amarr ships for starters to something more useful. They need to look at the fitting on cruiser and frig lasers. The fitting requirements seem somewhat steep compared to the PG and CPU the ships have. Either tweak some of those guns down, or boost the ships. I wouldn't mind seeing a crystal that's got a generous thermal output with a very low em output (if any at all). I don't think the ammar need explosive crystals like everyone says, but being able to choose from long range EM only all the way down to very very short range Thermal only (make it use +10% cap use if it's that overpowered or something) would make for some interesting choices. Revamping those Khnaid inovation ships would be a nice bonus. I really liked that topic I saw a while back detailling how Khnaid ships ought to be armour tanking, missile spewing death machines that people might actually want to use rather than some bastard child laser using shield tanking ship that no one in their right mind would use.
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.25 07:08:00 -
[855 ]
How about just remove EM resistance hardening from all EAMN's ?
Tsual
Posted - 2006.06.25 09:29:00 -
[856 ]
Originally by: Xendie Tsual, you forgot the part where you cannot use small sized beams on frigate sized amarr ships. they are only usable on cruisers due to silly fittings. Hum nope you can: 3 med beams without awu need 48 MW Punisher with engineering 5 has 56.25 MW 8.25 MW left It is similar to a full 280ed rifter: 3 280 Howitzer without awu 36 MW Rifter with engineering 5: 46.25 MW 10.25 MW left At least for t1 ... t2 you better train awu4 before even bothering with long range specs. Well in Rifters case you can use an ab, in punishers case you can't (you still can shield tank with punisher (ssbII, sf, 3*hsII and teII) alternative (ssbII, cr, 3*hsII, teII) but that will be quite harsh for your cap. (Well you can still do sarI, 3*hsII or 2*hsII and go for a mapc to fit an ab and a web in med.) And before you say "amarr! shieldtank! WTF?" yeah those setups are crazy and most likely better not used.******************** Moral is only usefull so far as society demands it from one to accept his presence.
haq aan
Posted - 2006.06.25 11:50:00 -
[857 ]
Edited by: haq aan on 25/06/2006 11:53:41 Edited by: haq aan on 25/06/2006 11:52:36 Originally by: Malken can we get our explosive crystals soon? No u cant,..if there ll be exp crystals, i d quit EvE,..and hope most minnie s would do the same,.. *Suicide is better than total annihilation
Keilas
Posted - 2006.06.25 11:54:00 -
[858 ]
Edited by: Keilas on 25/06/2006 11:57:27 amarr and gallente fires 2 types of damage.if u get another damage ammo devs must give gallente another damage ammo too... if ure talking bout drone damage its our speciality your speciality is uber tanking full low slots little shield high armor ...we are armor tanking too but its changes little between shield and not much lows and u get special resistance ships we have drone ships,Also you got good drone ships if ure talking bout drones and how the hell lasers can do explosive damage? its a total whinning request imo
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.25 11:57:00 -
[859 ]
Originally by: Keilas amarr and gallente shoot 2 guns types of damage.if u get another damage ammo devs must give gallente another damage ammo also... if ure talking bout drone damage its our speciality your speciality is uber tanking full low slots little shield high armor ...we are armor tankiing too but its changes little between shield and not much lows and u get special resistanced ship we have drone ships.Also you got good drone ships if ure talking bout drones and how the hell laser can do explosive damage? its a total whinning request imo Another post that just hurts the eyes. There is t2 hybrid ammo with EM dmg in the database btw.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Keilas
Posted - 2006.06.25 12:10:00 -
[860 ]
Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Keilas amarr and gallente shoot 2 guns types of damage.if u get another damage ammo devs must give gallente another damage ammo also... if ure talking bout drone damage its our speciality your speciality is uber tanking full low slots little shield high armor ...we are armor tankiing too but its changes little between shield and not much lows and u get special resistanced ship we have drone ships.Also you got good drone ships if ure talking bout drones and how the hell laser can do explosive damage? its a total whinning request imo Another post that just hurts the eyes. There is t2 hybrid ammo with EM dmg in the database btw. look again bro lets see if u can find it that ammo :)
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.06.25 12:11:00 -
[861 ]
right quit whining that your specialty is drones and ours is tanking cuz you tank just as well as we do, period
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.06.25 12:19:00 -
[862 ]
imho the 50% cap reduction should be a 65% cap reduction and it should be a standard bonus, and replace the cap reduction bonus on each amarr ship by a tanking bonus to actually make them the wtfpwn tank to make up for the lack of damage. A maller with 7,5% resistance and 7,5% armor repair effectiveness will make up for its 100 DPS imo
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.25 12:27:00 -
[863 ]
Edited by: BirdBleed on 25/06/2006 12:27:40 Originally by: Keilas Edited by: Keilas on 25/06/2006 11:57:27 amarr and gallente fires 2 types of damage.if u get another damage ammo devs must give gallente another damage ammo too... if ure talking bout drone damage its our speciality your speciality is uber tanking full low slots little shield high armor ...we are armor tanking too but its changes little between shield and not much lows and u get special resistance ships we have drone ships,Also you got good drone ships if ure talking bout drones and how the hell lasers can do explosive damage? its a total whinning request imo hmmm ok ... mega = 8/4/7 ... apoc = 8/4/7 .... so the uber tanking amarr have lots of low slots eh ??? yer whatever, apoc has little more armor and more cap, yet its completely outclassed in dmg department. The mega can get more use out of a dmg control than an apoc can, as it has more struct :P Now lets compare your drone ships with our drone ships ... gal = ishkur/vexor/ishtar/domi ... amarr = arbitrator/curse/pilgrim all with 75m3 drone space. somehow i kinda find it hard to see how you think our drone ships are good compared to gallantes :/ However i do agree, explosive crystals is not the way. The fact remains amarr needs some love *lazer cap bonus needs to be boosted from 10% to 15%, lazers will then do 25% less cap than the do now which will leave more cap for tanking. *khandid ships needs an overhaul *something needs to be done about EAMN, with compensation skills you get uber high EM and therm resists so its effecting amarr more so than others which isnt fair *5th turret slot for the zealot/omen to get the dps on par with other hacs *retri needs useless hi slot changed to mid. Why take a retri in a gang for dmg dealing when you can take an enyo that can fit a scrambler ? with so many stab *****s sometimes its better to have more points than a little bit more dmg :P *apoc cap bonus changed to 5% armor resist bonus. Much better than the cap bonus, you can tank more DPS which is what counts :P
AlexCA
Posted - 2006.06.25 12:35:00 -
[864 ]
Personally I would like it if Amarr simply were more like the background stuff describes them. All about endurance really. They have massive Armour, use guns that don't need ammo and they (should) tank like hell. I don't mind being a unversatile straightforward brute who can do nothing but soak damage and deal it back. But atleast make us good at it. From what I gather the raven dome and megathron are about as good at tanking as the apoc, that just doesn't make sense to me, as those BS have other tricks up their sleaves while the apoc can really only do tankign and not much else. And dont you hate it when people make their signature look like part of their post?
DarkPanther
Posted - 2006.06.25 13:17:00 -
[865 ]
*retri needs useless hi slot changed to mid. Why take a retri in a gang for dmg dealing when you can take an enyo that can fit a scrambler ? with so many stab *****s sometimes its better to have more points than a little bit more dmg :P ^ This makes sense to me ^ plz ccp
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.25 14:43:00 -
[866 ]
Originally by: Deathbarrage imho the 50% cap reduction should be a 65% cap reduction and it should be a standard bonus, and replace the cap reduction bonus on each amarr ship by a tanking bonus to actually make them the wtfpwn tank to make up for the lack of damage. A maller with 7,5% resistance and 7,5% armor repair effectiveness will make up for its 100 DPS imo You will never never use less cap than blasters or rails _________________________________________________
Kardim
Posted - 2006.06.25 14:59:00 -
[867 ]
ok how about something more along the lines of similar damage per cap to gallente then? no i guess if we did similar damage per cap it would be about where it was before they nerfed us into the ground. i think amarr should use more cap than other races tbh, but i think we should not have to use cap injectors to funtion either... as it is now, the limited meds that we have are usually filled with cap rechargers just to function. I think that more than anything else is why we suck in pvp so much, if we do fit some ecm/ew type gear in mids our lasers kill our cap before we get anything done... and you say oohhhh well fill your lows with cpr, well what happen to our tank? arnt we supposed to be tanking gods? no i didnt think it felt like we were either. we arnt whining to be uber pwn mobiles, we just want several of our stats mildly messaged so we can compete with you other races.
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.25 15:24:00 -
[868 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 25/06/2006 15:24:24 Originally by: Kardim ok how about something more along the lines of similar damage per cap to gallente then? no i guess if we did similar damage per cap it would be about where it was before they nerfed us into the ground. i think amarr should use more cap than other races tbh, but i think we should not have to use cap injectors to funtion either... as it is now, the limited meds that we have are usually filled with cap rechargers just to function. I think that more than anything else is why we suck in pvp so much, if we do fit some ecm/ew type gear in mids our lasers kill our cap before we get anything done... and you say oohhhh well fill your lows with cpr, well what happen to our tank? arnt we supposed to be tanking gods? no i didnt think it felt like we were either. we arnt whining to be uber pwn mobiles, we just want several of our stats mildly messaged so we can compete with you other races. Yeh i see your point. Apoc should be the god of ammor tanking , i agree on that. About ecm, well that needs to be nerfed, i know ammar got shafted on that part. and dont calculate damage per sec, you will find minmatar and caldari very overpowered. You fire pure energym it just takes a lot of cap. But are you basicly saying that recharge is to crap to fire guns properly and tank? _________________________________________________
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.06.25 15:28:00 -
[869 ]
I'm just missing our edge in dmg/tanking which we should have cuz of the lack of versitality of minmatar/caldari/gallente
Kardim
Posted - 2006.06.25 16:41:00 -
[870 ]
Edited by: Kardim on 25/06/2006 16:46:17 yes to some extent... if amarr capacitors were increased maybe 25% on all ships while recharge rate stayed the same and an increase in grid, i think we could live with several of the other downfalls. the main thing i see is not any 1 stat that is off, which people when they argue usually ground 1 stat in and say look u guys are fine in that catagory only trailing behind just a little. but we have several things that are against us, we have hardest fitting req's, use the most cap, have nowhere near the highest dps doing anything (short or long range) and can tank about as good as anyother ship really. while we do have a little bit more cap than other races, we use more also which negates that bonus to beyond where it is a bonus at all... we also have more armor than any other race (in general) but tank almost the same as everyone else. the problem isnt any one thing its compounded one ontop of the other downfalls, leading us to be almost last in every catagory ingame, while most players that arnt amarr can agree that amarr arnt the best, nobody wants to let us get back to the gank/tank ppl we used to be. if we did have the same dmg and tank now that we did over a year ago, i think it would be closer to balanced, the way the game has gone in general towards EW as the win. so if we did do dmg again, wouldnt it be even if we get jammed the easiest? tho im not pushing to be the uber gank guys anymore, just bringing up points that i think would maybe bring how bad of a state we are in into light. edit PS. somehow this always gets dragged back to battleships, where i think they are the most balanced of the T1 amarr (not completly tho) the frig and cruiser are needing the most help. T2 ships have minor problems but are atleast mildy competitive.
DanMck
Posted - 2006.06.25 18:00:00 -
[871 ]
increase cap per ship please by default or another cap related skill please
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.06.26 00:29:00 -
[872 ]
Bump! And im gonna keep bumping this thread until the Devs reads the arguments why Amarr is so gimped, and finally does somenthing about it! And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.26 01:29:00 -
[873 ]
So far the only argument I've seen is "EANM tanks hurt amarr battleships". If you really think that's a good enough reason to get explosive crystals than I'm glad you don't work for CCP. Yes, I'm fully aware that other arguements have been put forward as well but most if not all of them have been wrong/lies/biased/bull****.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.26 01:44:00 -
[874 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul So far the only argument I've seen is "EANM tanks hurt amarr battleships". If you really think that's a good enough reason to get explosive crystals than I'm glad you don't work for CCP. Yes, I'm fully aware that other arguements have been put forward as well but most if not all of them have been wrong/lies/biased/bull****. so its wrong/lies/biased/bull**** that you... 1. can fit 8*800mm AC + dual rep tank with 3 hardeners and capinjector and 2dmg mods and do more average with no engineering mods on a apoc? 2.that a apoc with said setup can tank better and do same/better/more varied dmg? 3. state of small beams fittings is screwed up? 4. that the prophecy and maller works very well with autocannons? 5. aurora+gleam crystal set sets you back 60-75mill for a apoc im pretty sure i forgot a few things along the way since its so many things with amarr thats screwed up. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.26 02:15:00 -
[875 ]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 26/06/2006 02:15:23 "1. can fit 8*800mm AC + dual rep tank with 3 hardeners and capinjector and 2dmg mods and do more average with no engineering mods on a apoc?" Sadly you run out of CPU before all that fits unless you use the best named passive hardeners and the worst named web. "2.that a apoc with said setup can tank better and do same/better/more varied dmg?" I'll agree it can run a better tank due to the projectiles. As for damage, lets compare it with a DHPL II Apoc with 2 damage mods. With no resistances applied, the DHPL does more damage. With 5 55% hardeners, they do virtually identical damage for the first 5km until the projectile falloff kicks in. DHPL then do more damage. Against EANM tanks we all know projectiles win, but that's because they can target the weaker resistances. "3. state of small beams fittings is screwed up?" I believe tux has said this needs to be corrected. "4. that the prophecy and maller works very well with autocannons?" That's because it's still viable to fit oversized plates in PVP. By using autocannons you can free up more grid. Vagabonds, Muninns and Deimoses work well with lasers in certain situations as well. "5. aurora+gleam crystal set sets you back 60-75mill for a apoc" And I've burnt that much in ammo on my projectile ships. You forget that you have to carry around a full cargo hold of ammo (3-4 different types in large quantites) unless you want to run back to the station every 5 minutes. As for the pricing of the T2 crystals, that's the T2 market for you. Anyway, so far the reasons why Amarr should get explosive crystals are: 1) They can already fit autocannons and do comparable damage due to having more turret points than minny ships 2) EANM tanks hurt Amarr as it gives 4 modules for the slots of 3. This is only really valid on the battleship level, as most other ships don't have the slots to spare for 3 EANM. 3) T2 Crystals are expensive The solutions? 1) Prevent a ship fitting the wrong race's weapons 2) Nerf EANMs back into uselessness 3) Wait for Kali where you'll be able to make your own BPCs. The reason T2 explosive crystals were pulled was because it would hurt minmatar too much. The devs stated that they won't make it back into the game until Minmatar get something equally as sexy. Come up with that and you'll get explosive crystals. Remember, it has to be as good if not better than doing "wtfpwn" explosive damage. edit: sorry for the bad formatting, it's 3am and I really need some sleep :PTEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.26 03:43:00 -
[876 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul As for the pricing of the T2 crystals, that's the T2 market for you. Actually the pricing is rather that way because the t2 crystals cost a LOT to make. It's no t2 cap recharger conspirancy there. Multiple people (inculding manufactors who actually produce those crystals) already asked /suggested that the shots per crystal should be reduced by the factor 10 and the batch size increased by 10. Which would solve that issue quite nicely. Quote: 1) They can already fit autocannons and do comparable damage due to having more turret points than minny ships Not really true because it's not like that Minnie ships do not fit anything else into their non-turret ports. Like missles. Quote: 2) Nerf EANMs back into uselessness Not necessarily uselessness, but the thing is: they are really somewhat too powerful right now. Not only do 3 modules the work of 4, they also are passive vs active ones and need less cpu per module. Especially that a passive tank is more effecient than an active one is IMO kinda silly.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.26 04:38:00 -
[877 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 26/06/2006 02:15:23 "1. can fit 8*800mm AC + dual rep tank with 3 hardeners and capinjector and 2dmg mods and do more average with no engineering mods on a apoc?" Sadly you run out of CPU before all that fits unless you use the best named passive hardeners and the worst named web. i can fit all that + scram and web on my poc, infact i have that right now. Quote: "2.that a apoc with said setup can tank better and do same/better/more varied dmg?" I'll agree it can run a better tank due to the projectiles. As for damage, lets compare it with a DHPL II Apoc with 2 damage mods. DHPL2 would/should be more equal to 650's and not 800's. Quote: With no resistances applied, the DHPL does more damage. With 5 55% hardeners, they do virtually identical damage for the first 5km until the projectile falloff kicks in. DHPL then do more damage. Against EANM tanks we all know projectiles win, but that's because they can target the weaker resistances. and what is the major type of tank for pvp nowadays?, thats right EANM tanks where the projectiles on the apoc does more dmg since beams/pulses do EM dmg so much wich is silly resisted with such tanks. thnaks for making my point even clearer again. Quote: "3. state of small beams fittings is screwed up?" I believe tux has said this needs to be corrected. tux dont comment on amarr issues as he dont fly them at all he only boosts other races all the time, next question? Quote: "4. that the prophecy and maller works very well with autocannons?" That's because it's still viable to fit oversized plates in PVP. By using autocannons you can free up more grid. Vagabonds, Muninns and Deimoses work well with lasers in certain situations as well. wich means that something is wrong, all amarr ships should have a inherent bonus to fittings on beams and pulses then right so they dont have to use autocannons or rails due to grid issues. as for PVE with beams on a vaga, mininn or deimos, its not amarrs fault that some ppl are dumb. Quote: "5. aurora+gleam crystal set sets you back 60-75mill for a apoc" And I've burnt that much in ammo on my projectile ships. You forget that you have to carry around a full cargo hold of ammo (3-4 different types in large quantites) unless you want to run back to the station every 5 minutes. As for the pricing of the T2 crystals, that's the T2 market for you. you are not forced to take 60-75mill worth of ammo with you to shoot one shot with each gun, you can load 1 ammo in each gun for that. Quote: The reason T2 explosive crystals were pulled was because it would hurt minmatar too much. The devs stated that they won't make it back into the game until Minmatar get something equally as sexy. Come up with that and you'll get explosive crystals. Remember, it has to be as good if not better than doing "wtfpwn" explosive damage. its not as bad as amarr weapons cant kill a vagabond with a EM hardener on unless theres 5+ of them shooting at it. 90%+ res against amarr's primary dmg type 4tl very balanced already isnt it? how about making minmatar being only able to shoot kinetic and explosive and have amarr ships have those hardened to 90%+ with 1 hardener, balanced yes or no? Quote: edit: sorry for the bad formatting, it's 3am and I really need some sleep :P yes you do, goodnight Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.26 08:09:00 -
[878 ]
Originally by: Xendie i can fit all that + scram and web on my poc, infact i have that right now. 800mm II x 8, MWD II, Faint 20k Scrambler, Langour/Fleeting Web, Heavy Elec Cap Booster, Large Accom Rep x 2 and Gyrostab II x 2 leaves you 58-60cpu left to try and fit 3 hardeners on depending which web you use. Last time I checked, active hardeners use between 32 and 44 cpu (N-Type to T2). Quote: DHPL2 would/should be more equal to 650's and not 800's. I was comparing it to an identical setup (twin rep, 8 guns, mwd, etc) but with lasers and Megapulse doesn't fit. Seeing as DHPL2 out-damage 800mms on the apoc, if you fitted Megapulse the difference would be even higher. Quote: and what is the major type of tank for pvp nowadays?, thats right EANM tanks where the projectiles on the apoc does more dmg since beams/pulses do EM dmg so much wich is silly resisted with such tanks. thnaks for making my point even clearer again. It is the major tank on a small selection of battleships, namely those without the CPU or slots to tank properly (i.e. Tempest, Mega, Geddon). Of course some people fit them onto other ships, but I could easily go around complaining that everyone is hardened against explosive damage this negating the advantage of doing said damage. Quote: tux dont comment on amarr issues as he dont fly them at all he only boosts other races all the time, next question? Oh stop with the "waaa waaa tux doesn't love Amarr" rubbish please? Quote: wich means that something is wrong, all amarr ships should have a inherent bonus to fittings on beams and pulses then right so they dont have to use autocannons or rails due to grid issues. as for PVE with beams on a vaga, mininn or deimos, its not amarrs fault that some ppl are dumb. The tanking ships (Maller, Prophacy) don't get damage bonuses, only the gank ships (Omen, Geddon, etc). In my opinion, the fitting requirements for all top tier guns besides 425mm rails are far too high which can lead to problems like this. And who are you to call those people dumb? If you are fighting NPCs very weak to EM and thermal it's a damn good idea. You take one set of crystals with you and have your full cargo to reload. You think it's fine for Amarr to think outside the box and fit autocannons but not for other races to do the same and fit lasers for certain situations? Practice what you preach. Quote: you are not forced to take 60-75mill worth of ammo with you to shoot one shot with each gun, you can load 1 ammo in each gun for that. And if you want to shoot 1000 rounds from each gun you still only need one crystal. Quote: its not as bad as amarr weapons cant kill a vagabond with a EM hardener on unless theres 5+ of them shooting at it. 90%+ res against amarr's primary dmg type 4tl Why would a vagabond have an EM armour hardener in the first place? Anyway, do you see Vagabond/Muninn pilots moan about how hard it is to kill a Sacri due to it's massive tank? No. Gallente crying that it's hard to kill a Cerberus? No. Amarr are the only ones that ***** about this, and seem to feel that the tricks the other races need to use (drones, missiles) don't apply (I will agree that the situation is pretty hopeless in a Zealot (it has no support for either). Petition for more thermal-damage crystals instead. Having a hard time killing vagabonds is not an excuse to get explosive crystals. Quote: how about making minmatar being only able to shoot kinetic and explosive and have amarr ships have those hardened to 90%+ with 1 hardener, balanced yes or no? What, like the Sacri and Zealot (one T2 explosive hardener pushes them over 90%)? Minmatar have to carry a thermal-heavy ammo around just to stand a chance of killing those ships, as all T2 projectile ammo is explosive and kinetic. Keep bumping my Khanid thread and you will end up with the perfect vagabond killer in the Sac (drones and missiles).TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Hakuin
Posted - 2006.06.26 09:40:00 -
[879 ]
Light Electron Blaster I : CPU: 9 PowerGrid: 4 Light Electron Blaster II: CPU: 9 PowerGrid: 4 125mm Gatling Autocannon I : CPU: 3 PowerGrid: 1 125mm Gatling Autocannon II: CPU: 3 PowerGrid: 1 Gatling Pulse Laser I : CPU: 4 PowerGrid: 5 Gatling Pulse Laser II: CPU: 4 PowerGrid: 6 Makes sense to me...Light Electron Blaster II RoF: 2.00 (best rof )Dmg Mod: 2.1x (best dmg mod )FallOff: 1500m (2nd best FallOff)Optimal: 1200m (2nd best optimal)Track: 0.365 (2nd best tracking)Cap Use: 0.938 Antimatter 7 Kin 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff.125mm Gatling Autocannon II RoF: 2.00 (best rof )Dmg Mod: 1.65x (worst dmg mod)FallOff: 4000m (best falloff )Optimal: 960m (worst optimal)Track: 0.395 (best tracking )Cap Use: None EMP 5 EM 4 Explo 2 Kin -50% Optimal, same FallOff.Gatling Pulse Laser II RoF: 2.10 (worst rof)Dmg Mod: 1.8x (2nd best dmg mod)FallOff: 500m (worst FallOff)Optimal: 4800m (best optimal )Track: 0.246 (worst tracking)Cap Use: 1.82 Multifrequency 7 EM 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff. ________In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few.
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.26 10:58:00 -
[880 ]
Edited by: Forsch on 26/06/2006 11:00:08 Originally by: Sarmaul Of course some people fit them onto other ships, but I could easily go around complaining that everyone is hardened against explosive damage this negating the advantage of doing said damage. I see. So there's nothing that speaks against explosive crystals then. Originally by: Sarmaul What, like the Sacri and Zealot (one T2 explosive hardener pushes them over 90%)? Minmatar have to carry a thermal-heavy ammo around just to stand a chance of killing those ships, as all T2 projectile ammo is explosive and kinetic. Sadly laser users don't have that choice to carry another ammo type with them, should they run into minmatar t2 ships. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.26 11:15:00 -
[881 ]
Wonder how gallente would feel if hybrid CPU use was doubled and one ship boni removed from each ship to be replaced by 10% less cpu use on hybrids per level, so they'd just have to get rank 5 on all ship class levels. And the official message from higher up would be: They have a inbuilt damage mod, dammit, stop complaining, seriously, what the hell. Just a thought
Angelic Resolution
Posted - 2006.06.26 11:28:00 -
[882 ]
Edited by: Angelic Resolution on 26/06/2006 11:29:43 Last time I heard of a ship going against any HAC was that if it wasn't a HAC vs HAC or BS vs HAC you're kind of... screwed (Not taking into account EW). So really putting on explosive crystals would just save Amarr pilots time killing an already dead ship.. And if it is a Minmattar BS and you're in 0.0 your nos will save you.. if not then it's your own fault for crappy fitting IMO. Edit: Second thought: Khanid ships.. Who the hell gives a crap about shields when you're an armor tanker? What the hell kind of lame arse bonus is that? :|
Angelic Resolution
Posted - 2006.06.26 11:30:00 -
[883 ]
Edited by: Angelic Resolution on 26/06/2006 11:31:06 Double post bug.
Spaced Skunk
Posted - 2006.06.26 11:43:00 -
[884 ]
The problem with amarr is that, gallente as (I fly these...I know! ) the overpowered race this patch, more and more pilots are flying the dominix, which completely abliterate amarr ships. I mean, the armageddon can attempt to solo, but it would need a MWD/AB, web and disrupter..if it gets nossed by most BS, its pretty much gunna die, no 4th medium for a cap injector...whereas all the other BS have 4+ meds. The compensation skills has meant more people using adaptive nanos, boosting EMP resists, whereas before the standard armor setup was rep, active exp/thermal/kin hardeners. Also I will be able to fly minny heavy assualt, so less amarr ships on battlefield mean less kills for me :D Anyways...I malken, I agree amarr is complete crap, only a few ships that are close to good with amarr; curse/pilgrim/zealot/absolution/maller/omen/crusader etc. Explosive damage crystals wont really balance much tbh, it will not make it a better game. CCP will have to change everything. I cant think of a way to make amarr balance...you've got a problem CCP.
Jenny Spitfire
Posted - 2006.06.26 11:44:00 -
[885 ]
Originally by: Spaced Skunk I cant think of a way to make amarr balance...you've got a problem CCP. Change basic shield and armour resists from one size fits all to racial. ----------------RecruitMe@NOINT!
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.06.26 12:06:00 -
[886 ]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Spaced Skunk I cant think of a way to make amarr balance...you've got a problem CCP. Change basic shield and armour resists from one size fits all to racial. Thats a very good idea actually.
Jenny Spitfire
Posted - 2006.06.26 12:07:00 -
[887 ]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Spaced Skunk I cant think of a way to make amarr balance...you've got a problem CCP. Change basic shield and armour resists from one size fits all to racial. Thats a very good idea actually. Of course, should support target painting and missile bonuses for tier 3 Minnie BS. ----------------RecruitMe@NOINT!
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.26 13:17:00 -
[888 ]
Let start a /Signed procedure. At first, I explain FACTS, not whining about Amarr. Amarr doesn't need a boost on damage or on laser. We just need 2 bonuses like all others: One bonus of all amarr ships is used to make us be able to use lasers. Let take a look on it. Missile have a self propulsion systems, and you pay for it on market, so they consume no cap. Because this, we do not take missiles in considerations. Projectile weapons also doesnt consume caps because brutors are inside the cannon and throw the projectile with their incredible strength (like javelin throwers), so we do not take them in count. We take only hybrid. With Amarr frigate / cruiser / BS LVL 5, we consume cap for fire weapon LIKE if we have a hybrid turret mounted on, and often even MORE (check freely the market and you will see I am correct). Now consider that we NEED to have LVL 5, or there is not even to talk. Also, after this we give a bonus for be able to reach GALLENTE and generally hybrid level. So, why that? Because laser is ALREADY incredible powerful? Clearly they are not in damage department. So, why? Because laser doesnt need ammunition? They need in PVP cause T2 crystals burn out and in PVP T2 equipment is nearly a must. Because, like say Tux, they have a better optimal so are more versatile? Yes true, but are also MORE susceptible to destabilization. So why? The point to give a bonus to amarr ships for able them to use laser is OK, but it is give to us a TRUE advantage. I am not whining man... also, I am not asking for MORE DAMAGE!! MORE DAMAGE!! I am asking only to give to amarr 2 bonuses like all other races. Now, I think there is 2 method for balance amarr , and make a change, one time at least, that is not a GANK TANK solution as always.SOLUTION A All Amarr ships get a +25% to Capacitor Capacity, at the same recharge rate (so they recharge more faster). Increase PowerGrid of Amarr ships by 2 on frigate class, and 5% on other type of vessel.SOLUTION B Get a +13% to cap usage for laser weapons / level. Increase PowerGrid of Amarr ships by 2 on frigate class, and 5% on other type of vessel.Remember that we need LVL 5 for be able to even think to be near hybrid turrets, with the current bonus. I do not know you, but I have uber perception and willpower here and for cruiser lvl 5 I need 18 days... I do not want even think what happen on Battleship lvl 5 (may be 30 days... and ONLY for be like a gallente in cap consumption - but still nerfed cause I have only 1 bonus active). Personally I signed for SOLUTION A
Belial02
Posted - 2006.06.26 15:51:00 -
[889 ]
/signed and then more...
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.06.26 17:58:00 -
[890 ]
/signed and still furious with the lasers! And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Garett Makathis
Posted - 2006.06.26 20:36:00 -
[891 ]
Never can have too many pages.
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.06.26 20:39:00 -
[892 ]
Originally by: Garett Makathis Never can have too many pages. Well, it's getting a bit silly. Soon it'll surpass the old "Amarr needs a boost" thred that went on for a few pages per day. Back then it was a debate on how to make lasers more interesting for Apocs rather than to fit 8x 1400mm Howies. (Also, 1400mms were a lot better back then)New sig coming soonÖ By "soon" I do not necessarily mean "this year"
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.06.26 20:49:00 -
[893 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth <..>SOLUTION A All Amarr ships get a +25% to Capacitor Capacity, at the same recharge rate (so they recharge more faster). Increase PowerGrid of Amarr ships by 2 on frigate class, and 5% on other type of vessel. Actually, in many cases lasers use less capacitor per second compared to hybrids. Hybrids also use ammo, you know... Additionally, the boost you are asking for is... extreme is the best word for it. Amarr Frigate powergrid is fine. Medium Beam powergrid is not. Quote: SOLUTION B Get a +13% to cap usage for laser weapons / level. Increase PowerGrid of Amarr ships by 2 on frigate class, and 5% on other type of vessel. Ignoring recurring powergrid stuff. This would put ammo use at inf better than hybrids and capacitor use at (off the top of my head) 10% to 20% better than hybrids. Quote: Remember that we need LVL 5 for be able to even think to be near hybrid turrets, with the current bonus. I do not know you, but I have uber perception and willpower here and for cruiser lvl 5 I need 18 days... I do not want even think what happen on Battleship lvl 5 (may be 30 days... and ONLY for be like a gallente in cap consumption - but still nerfed cause I have only 1 bonus active). Personally I signed for SOLUTION A Well... I'll put it in red. AMMUNITION! So you aim for Gallente in terms of capacitor without having the slightest clue how flying Gallente is like. Let me put it like this: constantly short on capacitor. I've got level 5 Gallente and level 4 Amarr. My Amarr BShips are a lot kinder on my capacitor. In all honesty. Get the facts and arguments right. There is room for improvement, but at least don't build arguments off of a missguided base. P.S. Armageddon is near fine, Apoc got a relative nerf from 800 charges suddenely becoming useful (now everyone's got cap). 5% armour resistance instead of capacitor capacity, anyone?New sig coming soonÖ By "soon" I do not necessarily mean "this year"
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.26 21:04:00 -
[894 ]
Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Mahavy Seth <..>SOLUTION A All Amarr ships get a +25% to Capacitor Capacity, at the same recharge rate (so they recharge more faster). Increase PowerGrid of Amarr ships by 2 on frigate class, and 5% on other type of vessel. Actually, in many cases lasers use less capacitor per second compared to hybrids. Hybrids also use ammo, you know... Additionally, the boost you are asking for is... extreme is the best word for it. Amarr Frigate powergrid is fine. Medium Beam powergrid is not. Quote: SOLUTION B Get a +13% to cap usage for laser weapons / level. Increase PowerGrid of Amarr ships by 2 on frigate class, and 5% on other type of vessel. Ignoring recurring powergrid stuff. This would put ammo use at inf better than hybrids and capacitor use at (off the top of my head) 10% to 20% better than hybrids. Quote: Remember that we need LVL 5 for be able to even think to be near hybrid turrets, with the current bonus. I do not know you, but I have uber perception and willpower here and for cruiser lvl 5 I need 18 days... I do not want even think what happen on Battleship lvl 5 (may be 30 days... and ONLY for be like a gallente in cap consumption - but still nerfed cause I have only 1 bonus active). Personally I signed for SOLUTION A Well... I'll put it in red. AMMUNITION! So you aim for Gallente in terms of capacitor without having the slightest clue how flying Gallente is like. Let me put it like this: constantly short on capacitor. I've got level 5 Gallente and level 4 Amarr. My Amarr BShips are a lot kinder on my capacitor. In all honesty. Get the facts and arguments right. There is room for improvement, but at least don't build arguments off of a missguided base. P.S. Armageddon is near fine, Apoc got a relative nerf from 800 charges suddenely becoming useful (now everyone's got cap). 5% armour resistance instead of capacitor capacity, anyone? Lasers use less capacitor per seconds? Have you checked the market? Gallente have built in the bonus we, amarr, need to pay. that the fact. About ammunitions, 1. T2 crystals deteriorate. 2.You truly think that it is worthy to TOTALLY sacrifice a bonus? Now let me explain what mean TOTALLY and PARTIAL. PARTIAL mean that, because we hav eno ammunition, one of our bonus is nerfed and not good like others. TOTALLY mean that WE LOST TOTALLY THE BONUS and EVEN we need to reach LVL 5 or we get EVEN penalties! OMG man...
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.06.26 21:08:00 -
[895 ]
Originally by: Ithilidin P.S. Armageddon is near fine, Apoc got a relative nerf from 800 charges suddenely becoming useful (now everyone's got cap). 5% armour resistance instead of capacitor capacity, anyone? Pretty much agreed here. I would like to see a little more cpu on the geddon but other than that it's pretty darn good. The Apoc is meant to be a tanker. 5% armor resistance per level would be good, perhaps a touch more grid so you can fit weapons and a tank or a bit more armor would be appropriate. It's supposed to be a tanking beast but with everyone and thier grandma using 800's including the Apoc that cap bonus is fairly useless for pvp. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Hakuin
Posted - 2006.06.26 22:25:00 -
[896 ]
Another episode of "Small energy turret are uber!" Light Ion Blaster I : Cpu 13 PowerGrid 7 Light Ion Blaster II: Cpu 13 PowerGrid 7 150mm Autocannon I : Cpu 6 PowerGrid 2 150mm Autocannon II: Cpu 6 PowerGrid 2 Dual Light Pulse Laser I : Cpu 8 PowerGrid 6 Dual Light Pulse Laser II: Cpu 8 PowerGrid 7 Again...?Light Ion Blaster II RoF: 3.00 (worst rof)Dmg Mod: 3.375x (best dmg mod )FallOff: 2000m (2nd best FallOff)Optimal: 1500m (2nd best optimal)Track: 0.336 (2nd best tracking)Cap Use: 1.33 Antimatter 7 Kin 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff.150mm Autocannon II RoF: 2.25 (best rof )Dmg Mod: 1.98x (worst dmg mod)FallOff: 4000m (best falloff )Optimal: 1080m (worst optimal)Track: 0.35 (best tracking )Cap Use: None EMP 5 EM 4 Explo 2 Kin -50% Optimal, same FallOff.Dual Light Pulse Laser II RoF: 2.70 (2nd best rof)Dmg Mod: 2.4x (2nd best dmg mod)FallOff: 1500m (worst FallOff)Optimal: 5400m (best optimal )Track: 0.219 (worst tracking)Cap Use: 2.67 Multifrequency 7 EM 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff. ________In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few.
Cpt Abestos
Posted - 2006.06.26 23:53:00 -
[897 ]
Originally by: Hakuin Another episode of "Small energy turret are uber!" Light Ion Blaster I : Cpu 13 PowerGrid 7 Light Ion Blaster II: Cpu 13 PowerGrid 7 150mm Autocannon I : Cpu 6 PowerGrid 2 150mm Autocannon II: Cpu 6 PowerGrid 2 Dual Light Pulse Laser I : Cpu 8 PowerGrid 6 Dual Light Pulse Laser II: Cpu 8 PowerGrid 7 Again...?Light Ion Blaster II RoF: 3.00 (worst rof)Dmg Mod: 3.375x (best dmg mod )FallOff: 2000m (2nd best FallOff)Optimal: 1500m (2nd best optimal)Track: 0.336 (2nd best tracking)Cap Use: 1.33 Antimatter 7 Kin 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff.150mm Autocannon II RoF: 2.25 (best rof )Dmg Mod: 1.98x (worst dmg mod)FallOff: 4000m (best falloff )Optimal: 1080m (worst optimal)Track: 0.35 (best tracking )Cap Use: None EMP 5 EM 4 Explo 2 Kin -50% Optimal, same FallOff.Dual Light Pulse Laser II RoF: 2.70 (2nd best rof)Dmg Mod: 2.4x (2nd best dmg mod)FallOff: 1500m (worst FallOff)Optimal: 5400m (best optimal )Track: 0.219 (worst tracking)Cap Use: 2.67 Multifrequency 7 EM 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff. dont forget that all most all of minnie ships get a dmg and or rof bouns and almost all gallente get a dmg bouns.
eLLioTT wave
Posted - 2006.06.27 06:48:00 -
[898 ]
lately feeling a bit lost with lasers esp since our 0.0 region is angel infested. All other races can change ammo types and do significant damage to the npc's, amarr can.... go buy a dif ship... seriously we need some love. i agree with a few of the solutions above ^ either A boost our tanking ability greatly B boost our lasers (not really needed i think if we had A) C fix pg / cap use, its really hard to tank as well as other ships can when our guns use so much cap
DarkPanther
Posted - 2006.06.27 11:10:00 -
[899 ]
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.06.27 12:50:00 -
[900 ]
Bump! Do something about the lasers! And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Belial02
Posted - 2006.06.27 13:04:00 -
[901 ]
Reading all patches note available on this site, its kinda obvious Amarr never got anyting without the others getting better, no wonder why this ends up beeing that unbalanced Everytime the Geddon and the Apoc got some the Mega had it as well. Plus it also benefited some general gallente bonuses. I mean WTH?!
Tiuwaz
Posted - 2006.06.27 13:07:00 -
[902 ]
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 27/06/2006 13:08:31 Originally by: Belial02 Reading all patches note available on this site, its kinda obvious Amarr never got anyting without the others getting better, no wonder why this ends up beeing that unbalanced Everytime the Geddon and the Apoc got some the Mega had it as well. Plus it also benefited some general gallente bonuses. I mean WTH?! yeah the recent dmg boost to tachyons really benefitted the mega most , fracking gallente Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Belial02
Posted - 2006.06.27 13:16:00 -
[903 ]
Lol whats the percentage of players that can effectively fly a BS? Come on the issues regarding this race are also applicable to frigs, destoyers and cruisers. Stop staying focused on BS as if was the only class in that game..
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.27 13:16:00 -
[904 ]
What about the tracking boost? no amarr ship have a traking bonus... lol that so funny!
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.27 13:20:00 -
[905 ]
Originally by: Hakuin Another episode of "Small energy turret are uber!" Light Ion Blaster I : Cpu 13 PowerGrid 7 Light Ion Blaster II: Cpu 13 PowerGrid 7 150mm Autocannon I : Cpu 6 PowerGrid 2 150mm Autocannon II: Cpu 6 PowerGrid 2 Dual Light Pulse Laser I : Cpu 8 PowerGrid 6 Dual Light Pulse Laser II: Cpu 8 PowerGrid 7 Again...?Light Ion Blaster II RoF: 3.00 (worst rof)Dmg Mod: 3.375x (best dmg mod )FallOff: 2000m (2nd best FallOff)Optimal: 1500m (2nd best optimal)Track: 0.336 (2nd best tracking)Cap Use: 1.33 Antimatter 7 Kin 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff.150mm Autocannon II RoF: 2.25 (best rof )Dmg Mod: 1.98x (worst dmg mod)FallOff: 4000m (best falloff )Optimal: 1080m (worst optimal)Track: 0.35 (best tracking )Cap Use: None EMP 5 EM 4 Explo 2 Kin -50% Optimal, same FallOff.Dual Light Pulse Laser II RoF: 2.70 (2nd best rof)Dmg Mod: 2.4x (2nd best dmg mod)FallOff: 1500m (worst FallOff)Optimal: 5400m (best optimal )Track: 0.219 (worst tracking)Cap Use: 2.67 Multifrequency 7 EM 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff. Do not forget you are an amarr, so whine with us!
Tiuwaz
Posted - 2006.06.27 13:31:00 -
[906 ]
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 27/06/2006 13:32:04 Originally by: Mahavy Seth What about the tracking boost? no amarr ship have a traking bonus... lol that so funny! amarr dont have tracking bonuses becasue they already have very good tracking gallente + tracking bonus at 5 has approx equal or slightly worse tracking than amarr (atleast the cases i bothered to to compare quickly) Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Dammar
Posted - 2006.06.27 13:50:00 -
[907 ]
/whine /***** /moan /bumpage FFS
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.27 13:54:00 -
[908 ]
Originally by: Tiuwaz Edited by: Tiuwaz on 27/06/2006 13:32:04 Originally by: Mahavy Seth What about the tracking boost? no amarr ship have a traking bonus... lol that so funny! amarr dont have tracking bonuses becasue they already have very good tracking gallente + tracking bonus at 5 has approx equal or slightly worse tracking than amarr (atleast the cases i bothered to to compare quickly) Why you continue to talk? Your animatar brain cannot even understand the whole topic. Get inside your 1400mm cannon and start throwing ammo on enemies by yourself!! You remember? CCP have removed energy consumption from your cannons!
Jaketh Ivanes
Posted - 2006.06.27 14:11:00 -
[909 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Originally by: Tiuwaz Edited by: Tiuwaz on 27/06/2006 13:32:04 Originally by: Mahavy Seth What about the tracking boost? no amarr ship have a traking bonus... lol that so funny! amarr dont have tracking bonuses becasue they already have very good tracking gallente + tracking bonus at 5 has approx equal or slightly worse tracking than amarr (atleast the cases i bothered to to compare quickly) Why you continue to talk? Your animatar brain cannot even understand the whole topic. Get inside your 1400mm cannon and start throwing ammo on enemies by yourself!! You remember? CCP have removed energy consumption from your cannons! You throw insults instead of arguments. I fly amarr and I like them the way they are. With lvl amarr bs, my mega pulses takes less cap than my hvy pulses pr shot. Sounds good to me, tbh.
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.27 14:13:00 -
[910 ]
Edited by: MacQueen on 27/06/2006 14:14:15 Originally by: Ithildin In all honesty. Get the facts and arguments right. There is room for improvement, but at least don't build arguments off of a missguided base. P.S. Armageddon is near fine, Apoc got a relative nerf from 800 charges suddenely becoming useful (now everyone's got cap). 5% armour resistance instead of capacitor capacity, anyone? Let take it at a start for returning to the thread after 3 days. Because what I care most is about the BS class of Amarr. Yell it again !!! Well, the geddon I use it most, so I agree that it's near fine, yes, basically some more CPU, lots of cap and a tiny more grid for it will make the ship pretty good to use: 480 CPU, 4600 cap and 17k of grid sound ok to me, hope not many find it's overpower. The Apoc is near ... crap. it need far more upgrade than the geddon to be a useful ship. What I propose are: 530 CPU, 5300 cap, 22k grid and change the cap bonus to 5-7.5% Armor resistances. Blah, want to say some more about the Sac and Retri, but well, I'll save it for the next time I need to pump the thread ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.27 14:35:00 -
[911 ]
If the Apoc's cap bonus was changed to 5-7.5% armor resists per level we'd have a perfect line of ships going from frigates through cruisers to battleship: Punisher -> Maller -> Prophecy -> Apocalypse Omen -> new Battlecruiser -> Armageddon Arbitrator -> new Battleship This along with a Khanid overhaul would be a good start! Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Reatu Krentor
Posted - 2006.06.27 14:58:00 -
[912 ]
nice, 31 pages, I guess the amarr are trying to get that 'most whiney' crown Originally by: Forsch If the Apoc's cap bonus was changed to 5-7.5% armor resists per level we'd have a perfect line of ships going from frigates through cruisers to battleship: Punisher -> Maller -> Prophecy -> Apocalypse Omen -> new Battlecruiser -> Armageddon Arbitrator -> new Battleship This along with a Khanid overhaul would be a good start! The apoc change would make sense, the cap recharge bonus is indeed a bit of a waste when you look at pvp. 'Arbitrator -> new Battleship' -> Could be interesting, though I think there would have to be some kind of missile equivalent of the tracking disruptor to make it worthwhile for use in a fleet as ew(oh and no drone bonus on the amarr bs, pls. Drones is gallente). I hope they don't follow this logic for the 3rd tier minmatar though (unless it goes stabber -> new battleship ) Khanid overhaul, armor tanking missile spammers, can you say: yumm? - "I wish CONCORD would scream "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" when they turn up to blob you. " -_ Twilight Moon
Hakuin
Posted - 2006.06.27 15:59:00 -
[913 ]
Edited by: Hakuin on 27/06/2006 15:59:40 Ok, the last episode "Whine whine whine, small pulse laser are pretty rediculous". Tier3 small guns, let's check cpu/pg: Light Neutron Blaster I : Cpu 17 PowerGrid 9 Light Neutron Blaster II: Cpu 19 PowerGrid 10 200mm Autocannon I : Cpu 9 PowerGrid 4 200mm Autocannon II: Cpu 9 PowerGrid 4 Medium Pulse Laser I : Cpu 16 PowerGrid 11 Medium Pulse Laser II: Cpu 17 PowerGrid 12 Finally blaster take the nerf here too.Light Neutron Blaster II RoF: 3.50 (worst rof)Dmg Mod: 4.2x (best dmg mod )FallOff: 2500m (2nd best FallOff)Optimal: 1800m (2nd best optimal)Track: 0.316 (best tracking )Cap Use: 2.023 Antimatter 7 Kin 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff.200mm Autocannon II RoF: 2.50 (best rof )Dmg Mod: 2.31x (worst dmg mod)FallOff: 4000m (best falloff )Optimal: 1200m (worst optimal)Track: 0.35 (2nd best tracking)Cap Use: None EMP 5 EM 4 Explo 2 Kin -50% Optimal, same FallOff.Medium Pulse Laser II RoF: 3.50 (worst rof)Dmg Mod: 3.6x (2nd best dmg mod)FallOff: 2000m (worst FallOff)Optimal: 6000m (best optimal )Track: 0.197 (worst tracking)Cap Use: 4.44 Multifrequency 7 EM 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff.Summary and Conclusion Cons Small energy turrets have the worst tracking, worst falloff, worst cap usage (without ships bonus) of all small guns. Small lasers have a stupid and immotivated powergrid increase from tech 1 to tech 2 version of the same weapon (gatling II +1 powergrid, dual light pulseII +1 powergrid, medium pulseII +1 powergrid +1 cpu). EM + Thermal are the worst damage types you can do in a frig. fight. Small lasers have the highest powergrid req. Pro 2nd best (tier1-2) or worst (tier3) rof, 2nd best damage mod (where is "the highest base damage of all weapons system?" lol), best optimal range (but if you really want to do some decent damage you need to switch to multi/conflagration and your optimal drop...drop..drop). Lasers don't use ammo (but it's useless in a frig 'cos you can only break sansha/darkblood tank with EM+Thermal, so you are not so good in belt). I can whine a lot more but it's enough for now ________In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few.
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.27 16:12:00 -
[914 ]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor nice, 31 pages, I guess the amarr are trying to get that 'most whiney' crown After being dead quiet for decades, even centuries, the Amarrian civilization has been awoken. They took our emperor and there is no sign of a successor. They boosted the tanks of our enemies without adjusting our damage. They boosted the damage of our enemies without adjusting our tanks. They take the little choice we have to do different damage by turning khanid ships into lesser variants of their carthum counterparts. What's next? They'll remove the gold paint and replace it with pink? Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.27 17:40:00 -
[915 ]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Originally by: Mahavy Seth Originally by: Tiuwaz Edited by: Tiuwaz on 27/06/2006 13:32:04 Originally by: Mahavy Seth What about the tracking boost? no amarr ship have a traking bonus... lol that so funny! amarr dont have tracking bonuses becasue they already have very good tracking gallente + tracking bonus at 5 has approx equal or slightly worse tracking than amarr (atleast the cases i bothered to to compare quickly) Why you continue to talk? Your animatar brain cannot even understand the whole topic. Get inside your 1400mm cannon and start throwing ammo on enemies by yourself!! You remember? CCP have removed energy consumption from your cannons! You throw insults instead of arguments. I fly amarr and I like them the way they are. With lvl amarr bs, my mega pulses takes less cap than my hvy pulses pr shot. Sounds good to me, tbh. With lvl amarr? what level? And... your mega pulse use less cap than your heavy pulse? I do not get the point...
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.27 18:15:00 -
[916 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes With lvl amarr bs, my mega pulses takes less cap than my hvy pulses pr shot. Sounds good to me, tbh. With lvl amarr? what level? And... your mega pulse use less cap than your heavy pulse? I do not get the point... Translation: "I started using my geddon with heavy pulses because I didn't have the skills for large lasers. But now I trained them and with lvl something of amarr battleship they use less cap than my heavy pulses!!!! Amarr are awesome! No ******* clue what this thread is for really.. " From my point of view... a hopeless candidate. Even for Pator Tech School.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Reatu Krentor
Posted - 2006.06.27 19:49:00 -
[917 ]
Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Reatu Krentor nice, 31 pages, I guess the amarr are trying to get that 'most whiney' crown After being dead quiet for decades, even centuries, the Amarrian civilization has been awoken. They took our emperor and there is no sign of a successor. They boosted the tanks of our enemies without adjusting our damage. They boosted the damage of our enemies without adjusting our tanks.*Tanks of your enemies didn't really get boosted much, it's more a particular module that got a good boost, the energized adaptive module. Due to this module you can end up with high em resists, switching around em and thermal on lasers is not the answer though imo(would be un-RP). Amarr tanks benefit from this boost as well. your Apoc suggestion I liked .* They take the little choice we have to do different damage by turning khanid ships into lesser variants of their carthum counterparts. *Whoever suggested changing the missile bonus on the sacrilege should get nuked by way of Havoc heavy missile * What's next? They'll remove the gold paint and replace it with pink? *What you haven't seen the upgraded amarr dread in eris' sig? * - "I wish CONCORD would scream "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" when they turn up to blob you. " -_ Twilight Moon
Alzion
Posted - 2006.06.27 20:16:00 -
[918 ]
Edited by: Alzion on 27/06/2006 20:20:30 Originally by: Hakuin Edited by: Hakuin on 27/06/2006 15:59:40 Ok, the last episode "Whine whine whine, small pulse laser are pretty rediculous". Tier3 small guns, let's check cpu/pg: Light Neutron Blaster I : Cpu 17 PowerGrid 9 Light Neutron Blaster II: Cpu 19 PowerGrid 10 200mm Autocannon I : Cpu 9 PowerGrid 4 200mm Autocannon II: Cpu 9 PowerGrid 4 Medium Pulse Laser I : Cpu 16 PowerGrid 11 Medium Pulse Laser II: Cpu 17 PowerGrid 12 Finally blaster take the nerf here too.Light Neutron Blaster II RoF: 3.50 (worst rof)Dmg Mod: 4.2x (best dmg mod )FallOff: 2500m (2nd best FallOff)Optimal: 1800m (2nd best optimal)Track: 0.316 (best tracking )Cap Use: 2.023 Antimatter 7 Kin 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff.200mm Autocannon II RoF: 2.50 (best rof )Dmg Mod: 2.31x (worst dmg mod)FallOff: 4000m (best falloff )Optimal: 1200m (worst optimal)Track: 0.35 (2nd best tracking)Cap Use: None EMP 5 EM 4 Explo 2 Kin -50% Optimal, same FallOff.Medium Pulse Laser II RoF: 3.50 (worst rof)Dmg Mod: 3.6x (2nd best dmg mod)FallOff: 2000m (worst FallOff)Optimal: 6000m (best optimal )Track: 0.197 (worst tracking)Cap Use: 4.44 Multifrequency 7 EM 5 Thermal. -50% Optimal, same FallOff.Summary and Conclusion Cons Small energy turrets have the worst tracking, worst falloff, worst cap usage (without ships bonus) of all small guns. Small lasers have a stupid and immotivated powergrid increase from tech 1 to tech 2 version of the same weapon (gatling II +1 powergrid, dual light pulseII +1 powergrid, medium pulseII +1 powergrid +1 cpu). EM + Thermal are the worst damage types you can do in a frig. fight. Small lasers have the highest powergrid req. Pro 2nd best (tier1-2) or worst (tier3) rof, 2nd best damage mod (where is "the highest base damage of all weapons system?" lol), best optimal range (but if you really want to do some decent damage you need to switch to multi/conflagration and your optimal drop...drop..drop). Lasers don't use ammo (but it's useless in a frig 'cos you can only break sansha/darkblood tank with EM+Thermal, so you are not so good in belt). I can whine a lot more but it's enough for now Hakuin, you need to combine the damage mod, RoF, and ammo damage into DPS. You also need to combine the the cap use and RoF into cap per second. Then you'll be able to make some useful comparisons. edit: crystal = ammo --------------------------------------------- I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.28 06:21:00 -
[919 ]
Originally by: Forsch What's next? They'll remove the gold paint and replace it with pink? That would be very wrong !!! Amarr need that color as someone said out ship, stations.. are variant of bananas !!! Or... green bananas, perhap ?? ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.28 07:06:00 -
[920 ]
Originally by: MacQueen Or... green bananas, perhaps ?? Kinda like unripe bananas you mean? Quite fitting for the Amarrian race in the current state. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Hakuin
Posted - 2006.06.28 07:28:00 -
[921 ]
Originally by: Alzion Hakuin, you need to combine the damage mod, RoF, and ammo damage into DPS. You also need to combine the the cap use and RoF into cap per second. Then you'll be able to make some useful comparisons. edit: crystal = ammo "simply" dps (dmg mod*ammo)/rof EMP=11 Multifrequency=12 Antimatter=12 (1 gun) Light Electron Blaster II = 12,6 125mm Gatling Autocannon II = 9,07 Gatling Pulse Laser II = 10,2 Light Ion Blaster II = 13,5 150mm Autocannon II = 9,68 Dual Light Pulse Laser II = 10,6 Light Neutron Blaster II = 14,4 200mm Autocannon II = 10,1 Medium Pulse Laser II = 12,3 If my calculations are fine (I suck in math ) Light Electron Blaster II > Medium Pulse Laser II for raw dps. PLUS small lasers have the worst tracking and EM damage sucks on armor. ________In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few.
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.06.28 07:46:00 -
[922 ]
You need to compare tracking with range. Higher range means lower nominal tracking, but if you relate the two then it can actually mean that the pulses track BETTER at their optimal then the blaster does (I cba checking so not sure if thats the case herea s with large pulse lasers). Remember that to use blasters you need to be much much closer. That does have some consequences for setup requirements etc that would not exist when you can fire from outside web range for example. Straight up comparisons rarely result in a good view on balance. This thread has been one of the better demonstrators of that. Lasers are fine, it's some of your ships that need sorting.Old blog
eLLioTT wave
Posted - 2006.06.28 07:47:00 -
[923 ]
Originally by: Forsch If the Apoc's cap bonus was changed to 5-7.5% armor resists per level we'd have a perfect line of ships going from frigates through cruisers to battleship: Punisher -> Maller -> Prophecy -> Apocalypse Omen -> new Battlecruiser -> Armageddon Arbitrator -> new Battleship This along with a Khanid overhaul would be a good start! close but no cigar! armor bonuses mean jack all atm because most everyone is using 3x EAN II,s with the passive armor skills so the resist penaltys come into play and only give us a teeny weeny advantage. Extra armor means jack all as well. What we NEED for us to be good tankers is the resist bonus with no penalty. Let the penalty apply for modules still (and all other ships) but for amarr armor tanking ships make it a non penalised bonus. Eg 5% resists to armor per level @ level 5 would = +25% so that alone would take 60% em to 85% em base. Yes this means amarr armor tanking ships can tank like a good hac (which is how it should be). If nothing else at least let us tank! we have enough trouble with em/therm only damage and crappy cap/pg to try fit beams.
Reatu Krentor
Posted - 2006.06.28 08:30:00 -
[924 ]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave Originally by: Forsch If the Apoc's cap bonus was changed to 5-7.5% armor resists per level we'd have a perfect line of ships going from frigates through cruisers to battleship: Punisher -> Maller -> Prophecy -> Apocalypse Omen -> new Battlecruiser -> Armageddon Arbitrator -> new Battleship This along with a Khanid overhaul would be a good start! close but no cigar! armor bonuses mean jack all atm because most everyone is using 3x EAN II,s with the passive armor skills so the resist penaltys come into play and only give us a teeny weeny advantage. Extra armor means jack all as well. What we NEED for us to be good tankers is the resist bonus with no penalty. Let the penalty apply for modules still (and all other ships) but for amarr armor tanking ships make it a non penalised bonus. Eg 5% resists to armor per level @ level 5 would = +25% so that alone would take 60% em to 85% em base. Yes this means amarr armor tanking ships can tank like a good hac (which is how it should be). If nothing else at least let us tank! we have enough trouble with em/therm only damage and crappy cap/pg to try fit beams. A ship armor resist bonus(like the +5% to all armor resists/lvl on maller) do not get counted towards stacking penalty. IOW what you say you want is already the case . Give same bonus(perhaps even stronger) to apoc and you have a nice bs. em/therm damage is sick against shields. PG on lasers could perhaps use a look(especially on frig lasers). Cap use is high because T1 ammo doesn't get used, though the cap reduction bonus puts it near hybrid cap use(which do use ammo). - "I wish CONCORD would scream "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" when they turn up to blob you. " -_ Twilight Moon
Hakuin
Posted - 2006.06.28 08:38:00 -
[925 ]
Originally by: Rod Blaine You need to compare tracking with range. Higher range means lower nominal tracking, but if you relate the two then it can actually mean that the pulses track BETTER at their optimal then the blaster does (I cba checking so not sure if thats the case herea s with large pulse lasers). Remember that to use blasters you need to be much much closer. That does have some consequences for setup requirements etc that would not exist when you can fire from outside web range for example. Straight up comparisons rarely result in a good view on balance. This thread has been one of the better demonstrators of that. Lasers are fine, it's some of your ships that need sorting. Sorry, but you are wrong. 1 ) Gatling Pulse Laser II with max skills + multifrequency crystal = 3000m Optimal Range and 625m FallOff. Light Electron Blaster II with max skills + antimatter charge = 750m Optimal Range and 1875m FallOff. 125mm Gatling Autocannon II with max skills + EMP ammo = 600m Optimal Range and 5000m FallOff. In an inty vs inty fight it's MUCH MORE easy to approch or orbit the target at 500m than stay between 3000-3625m (max 4250m). Plus with autocannon you can outrange small lasers with the huge falloff, yes you miss much more but it's better than don't hit at all. So basically with Electron you can stay between 500-4500m, with 125mm autocannon you can stay between 500-10600m, and with Gatling pulse you NEED to stay between 3000-4250m or your tracking sucks to much. Conclusion: A lot of noobs can use Taranis with success, but if you want use Crusader with success you need to be a very skilled player for COMPETE. 2) Gatling with Scorch (t2 crystal) = 9000m optimal, 0.23 tracking (instead of 0.3) and 625m Falloff, so you cannot fire out of the web range. 3) Lasers are NOT fine. I don't know nothing about medium/large lasers (I don't fly amarr cruiser/bs, only t2 frigate, minnie 4tw and for the fun), but small lasers sucks. Amen. 4) rockets > small autocannons > small blasters > small pulses. ________In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few.
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.06.28 13:54:00 -
[926 ]
Bump! Simon says fix thy lasers! And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
TribalBleb
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:01:00 -
[927 ]
agreed, bumpage and can we have a dev reply please
Garia666
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:05:00 -
[928 ]
after all comments i still sign this post
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:10:00 -
[929 ]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 28/06/2006 14:16:18 Originally by: eLLioTT wave Originally by: Forsch If the Apoc's cap bonus was changed to 5-7.5% armor resists per level we'd have a perfect line of ships going from frigates through cruisers to battleship: Punisher -> Maller -> Prophecy -> Apocalypse Omen -> new Battlecruiser -> Armageddon Arbitrator -> new Battleship This along with a Khanid overhaul would be a good start! close but no cigar! armor bonuses mean jack all atm because most everyone is using 3x EAN II,s with the passive armor skills so the resist penaltys come into play and only give us a teeny weeny advantage. Extra armor means jack all as well. What we NEED for us to be good tankers is the resist bonus with no penalty. Let the penalty apply for modules still (and all other ships) but for amarr armor tanking ships make it a non penalised bonus. Eg 5% resists to armor per level @ level 5 would = +25% so that alone would take 60% em to 85% em base. Yes this means amarr armor tanking ships can tank like a good hac (which is how it should be). If nothing else at least let us tank! we have enough trouble with em/therm only damage and crappy cap/pg to try fit beams. Please learn what stacking actually means before coming out with stuff like that. Module stacking is when you apply more than one module that effects the same attribute. The module with the highest value is applied in it's entirety, the second best's effectiveness is reduced and so on. With hardeners, the effect you see when you add a 50% hardener to a 60% resistance and end up with 80% is not stacking, it's hardening 50% of the unhardened resistance. You'll notice that it's percentages, not integers. Finally, ship resistance bonuses do not stack with modules.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
The Armin
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:13:00 -
[930 ]
As a future Amarr BS pilot /signed =P Atleast boost Amarr PG/CPU, or decrease PG/CPU req on lasers. And not by one like the Vengy
korrey
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:14:00 -
[931 ]
/Signed Too bad the 'Making it happen' part never usually comes.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:19:00 -
[932 ]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 28/06/2006 14:21:55 So we had to wait almost a year just to get a 50% increase in ammo capacity for top-tier autocannons yet you think tux should just drop everything and "boost Amarr". With a massive expansion coming up, assault missiles, combat boosters, Muninn boost, Nighthawk boost, another possible Deimos boost and so on already been confirmed do you really think they're going to cut all that out just to make a select few moaners happy? I think some people seriously need a reality check. Edit: I forgot to mention the years we've been waiting for a Typhoon and low-tier artillery boost.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:23:00 -
[933 ]
Edited by: Devoras2 on 28/06/2006 14:24:03 Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 28/06/2006 14:21:55 So we had to wait almost a year just to get a 50% increase in ammo capacity for top-tier autocannons yet you think tux should just drop everything and "boost Amarr". With a massive expansion coming up, assault missiles, combat boosters, Muninn boost, Nighthawk boost, another possible Deimos boost and so on already been confirmed do you really think they're going to cut all that out just to make a select few moaners happy? I think some people seriously need a reality check. Edit: I forgot to mention the years we've been waiting for a Typhoon and low-tier artillery boost. Yeah, boost all races except Amarr...yet again... Wonder who needs a reality check. And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
eLLioTT wave
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:31:00 -
[934 ]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: eLLioTT wave Originally by: Forsch If the Apoc's cap bonus was changed to 5-7.5% armor resists per level we'd have a perfect line of ships going from frigates through cruisers to battleship: Punisher -> Maller -> Prophecy -> Apocalypse Omen -> new Battlecruiser -> Armageddon Arbitrator -> new Battleship This along with a Khanid overhaul would be a good start! close but no cigar! armor bonuses mean jack all atm because most everyone is using 3x EAN II,s with the passive armor skills so the resist penaltys come into play and only give us a teeny weeny advantage. Extra armor means jack all as well. What we NEED for us to be good tankers is the resist bonus with no penalty. Let the penalty apply for modules still (and all other ships) but for amarr armor tanking ships make it a non penalised bonus. Eg 5% resists to armor per level @ level 5 would = +25% so that alone would take 60% em to 85% em base. Yes this means amarr armor tanking ships can tank like a good hac (which is how it should be). If nothing else at least let us tank! we have enough trouble with em/therm only damage and crappy cap/pg to try fit beams. A ship armor resist bonus(like the +5% to all armor resists/lvl on maller) do not get counted towards stacking penalty. IOW what you say you want is already the case . Give same bonus(perhaps even stronger) to apoc and you have a nice bs. em/therm damage is sick against shields. PG on lasers could perhaps use a look(especially on frig lasers). Cap use is high because T1 ammo doesn't get used, though the cap reduction bonus puts it near hybrid cap use(which do use ammo). just checked, maller with cruiser lvl4 = 68%em 36%exp 40%kin 48%therm compared to base resists of: 60em 20exp 25kin 35therm. With the change i suggested at cruiser lvl4 skill these would be 80%em 40%exp 45%kin 55%therm. Looking at it now i think the bonus should be changed to 6% per level as well as the no penalty. with 6% per level @ lvl5 youd have 90%em 50%exp 55%kin 65%therm. that would give amarr tanking its edge :D (sure it might make 1v1 amarr fights a bit boring with 90% em :P)
Angelic Resolution
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:35:00 -
[935 ]
What I don't get is Amarr have been in space longer then any other race yet at the moment they're at the level where it looks like they were last..
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:49:00 -
[936 ]
Originally by: Devoras2 Edited by: Devoras2 on 28/06/2006 14:24:03 Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 28/06/2006 14:21:55 So we had to wait almost a year just to get a 50% increase in ammo capacity for top-tier autocannons yet you think tux should just drop everything and "boost Amarr". With a massive expansion coming up, assault missiles, combat boosters, Muninn boost, Nighthawk boost, another possible Deimos boost and so on already been confirmed do you really think they're going to cut all that out just to make a select few moaners happy? I think some people seriously need a reality check. Edit: I forgot to mention the years we've been waiting for a Typhoon and low-tier artillery boost. Yeah, boost all races except Amarr...yet again... Wonder who needs a reality check. Because until very recently nobody had been calling for boosts to Amarr, where-as the other have beem brought-up and dev-confirmed for a very long time. You've (not aimed at you personally) spent what, 3-4 weeks in this "omg amarr sucks" mood. Minmatar had it forever. Now Minmatar are getting good and (you think) Amarr are getting worse you want immediate changes? Not gonna happen. Welcome to the world everyone else has had to live in. Not nice is it?TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:50:00 -
[937 ]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave Looking at it now i think the bonus should be changed to 6% per level as well as the no penalty. with 6% per level @ lvl5 youd have 90%em 50%exp 55%kin 65%therm. that would give amarr tanking its edge :D (sure it might make 1v1 amarr fights a bit boring with 90% em :P) Yes, lets break the game entirely by giving the Sacri a 105% resistance to explosive damage TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:56:00 -
[938 ]
Originally by: Angelic Resolution What I don't get is Amarr have been in space longer then any other race yet at the moment they're at the level where it looks like they were last.. It's the lack of an emperor! A proper successor would show Tux what has to be done!Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:58:00 -
[939 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: eLLioTT wave Looking at it now i think the bonus should be changed to 6% per level as well as the no penalty. with 6% per level @ lvl5 youd have 90%em 50%exp 55%kin 65%therm. that would give amarr tanking its edge :D (sure it might make 1v1 amarr fights a bit boring with 90% em :P) Yes, lets break the game entirely by giving the Sacri a 105% resistance to explosive damage 105%? Anyways, there are ships that come with 92,5% UNHARDENED EM resistance. Could almost call that immunity.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
south24
Posted - 2006.06.28 15:59:00 -
[940 ]
back to the top
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.28 16:14:00 -
[941 ]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave ...Looking at it now i think the bonus should be changed to 6% per level as well as the no penalty. with 6% per level @ lvl5 youd have 90%em 50%exp 55%kin 65%therm. that would give amarr tanking its edge :D (sure it might make 1v1 amarr fights a bit boring with 90% em :P) You still do not understand. There. is. no. penality. It is how resistance mods work in general. When you have two seperate 50% resistances of the same type applied you do not get 50% res + 50% res = 100% res = immunity. Res mods work after each other. 100 damage will be reduced by the first 50% mod to 50 damage. This 50 damage will get reduced by the 2nd 50% mod by 50%, leaving 25 damage. Meaning 2 50% mods will give you 75% res. If there wouldn't be stacking penalities, that is. The first resistance mod gives always 100% effeciency. If you use a 2nd mod which effect the same resistance it will only work with 87% effeciency. Meaning a 50% res mod will only act like a 43.5% mod. And this is the penality which does not effect the resistance bonus of amarr ships, they do not count for the stacking penality.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 16:19:00 -
[942 ]
Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: eLLioTT wave Looking at it now i think the bonus should be changed to 6% per level as well as the no penalty. with 6% per level @ lvl5 youd have 90%em 50%exp 55%kin 65%therm. that would give amarr tanking its edge :D (sure it might make 1v1 amarr fights a bit boring with 90% em :P) Yes, lets break the game entirely by giving the Sacri a 105% resistance to explosive damage 105%? Anyways, there are ships that come with 92,5% UNHARDENED EM resistance. Could almost call that immunity. He wants it to be 80% + 25%, instead of 80 + (100 - 80) * 1.25. That works out at 105%. As for the resistances, Caldari missile ships kill us due to our poor resistances, we kill Amarr ships due to our good resistances and Amarr kill Caldari due to their poor resistances, and everyone dies to Gallente drone ships. It's the circle of EVE TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.28 16:27:00 -
[943 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Amarr kill Caldari due to their poor resistances
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 16:42:00 -
[944 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Sarmaul Amarr kill Caldari due to their poor resistances Caldari: Shield tankers Lowest Resist: EM Amarr Highest Damage: EM Yes I know the Raven is wtfhax.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.28 16:51:00 -
[945 ]
Actually PvP fitted raven = Ecm + armor tank. I guess the arbitrator could use drones and the apoc FoF missles with it's 2 launchers.
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.28 17:12:00 -
[946 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Caldari: Shield tankers Lowest Resist: EM Amarr Highest Damage: EM Yes I know the Raven is wtfhax. No **** sherlock. You ever tried firing at a proper shield tanked raven with a geddon ? Heck, not even a tach geddon would have a chance of breaking that tank. lolz I say, lolz!
Reatu Krentor
Posted - 2006.06.28 17:21:00 -
[947 ]
Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: eLLioTT wave Looking at it now i think the bonus should be changed to 6% per level as well as the no penalty. with 6% per level @ lvl5 youd have 90%em 50%exp 55%kin 65%therm. that would give amarr tanking its edge :D (sure it might make 1v1 amarr fights a bit boring with 90% em :P) Yes, lets break the game entirely by giving the Sacri a 105% resistance to explosive damage 105%? Anyways, there are ships that come with 92,5% UNHARDENED EM resistance. Could almost call that immunity. minmatar assaults got the same resist boost as amarr got, 75% on their enemies' primary and 50% on their enemies primary. sure that gives minmatar an edge over lasers but guess what... There is 2 huge holes in resistances a Providence can pass through... - "I wish CONCORD would scream "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" when they turn up to blob you. " -_ Twilight Moon
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 17:32:00 -
[948 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Sarmaul Caldari: Shield tankers Lowest Resist: EM Amarr Highest Damage: EM Yes I know the Raven is wtfhax. No **** sherlock. You ever tried firing at a proper shield tanked raven with a geddon ? Heck, not even a tach geddon would have a chance of breaking that tank. lolz I say, lolz! You realise megapulses do more damage at close range than tachyons, right? Secondly, how many "proper shield tanked" ravens do you see on TQ? 20k Scrambler is needed plus cap booster, leaving a 4 slot tank.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Kaylana Syi
Posted - 2006.06.28 18:58:00 -
[949 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Sarmaul Caldari: Shield tankers Lowest Resist: EM Amarr Highest Damage: EM Yes I know the Raven is wtfhax. No **** sherlock. You ever tried firing at a proper shield tanked raven with a geddon ? Heck, not even a tach geddon would have a chance of breaking that tank. lolz I say, lolz! You realise megapulses do more damage at close range than tachyons, right? Secondly, how many "proper shield tanked" ravens do you see on TQ? 20k Scrambler is needed plus cap booster, leaving a 4 slot tank. QFT! Too many SiSi commando's post on these forums.Team Minmatar
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.06.28 19:08:00 -
[950 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul You realise megapulses do more damage at close range than tachyons, right? No **** sherlock, YOu do realise that blastars do more damage at close range than rails right? (gah!) Quote: Secondly, how many "proper shield tanked" ravens do you see on TQ? Alot.
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.28 19:12:00 -
[951 ]
I have readed that TomB Himself will reply to this only when we reach page 50 or more.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.28 19:42:00 -
[952 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth I have readed that TomB Himself will reply to this only when we reach page 50 or more. propably because Tux looked up "Amarr" in the dictionary and he couldnt understand what we were talking about Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 19:46:00 -
[953 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Sarmaul You realise megapulses do more damage at close range than tachyons, right? No **** sherlock, YOu do realise that blastars do more damage at close range than rails right? (gah!) "Heck, not even a tach geddon would have a chance of breaking that tank." With that line you are insinuating that if a tach geddon can't kill a raven then no other lasers can, otherwise you would have said "Heck, not even a megapulse geddon would have a chance of breaking that tank."TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Reatu Krentor
Posted - 2006.06.28 20:15:00 -
[954 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Sarmaul You realise megapulses do more damage at close range than tachyons, right? No **** sherlock, YOu do realise that blastars do more damage at close range than rails right? (gah!) "Heck, not even a tach geddon would have a chance of breaking that tank." With that line you are insinuating that if a tach geddon can't kill a raven then no other lasers can, otherwise you would have said "Heck, not even a megapulse geddon would have a chance of breaking that tank." I think it's best to ignore him, Sarmaul. Seems like he wants to start a fire. Which makes me a sad . Flaming is best left to the BBQ and fireplaces. Anyway I've said everything I wanted to say already. Let's repeat, Resist bonus for apoc, would make sense(following the punisher -> maller -> apoc line). Changing lasers from em > thermal to thermal > em, shouldn't be done, primary damage is em for amarr(like it is explosive for minmatar, kinetic for caldari and thermal for gallente). PG of lasers could use a look (in particular frigate size ones). Certain armor tanking modules(Energized Adaptive nano membrane) could deserve a look at. - "I wish CONCORD would scream "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" when they turn up to blob you. " -_ Twilight Moon
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.28 20:33:00 -
[955 ]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Sarmaul You realise megapulses do more damage at close range than tachyons, right? No **** sherlock, YOu do realise that blastars do more damage at close range than rails right? (gah!) "Heck, not even a tach geddon would have a chance of breaking that tank." With that line you are insinuating that if a tach geddon can't kill a raven then no other lasers can, otherwise you would have said "Heck, not even a megapulse geddon would have a chance of breaking that tank." I think it's best to ignore him, Sarmaul. Seems like he wants to start a fire. Which makes me a sad . Flaming is best left to the BBQ and fireplaces. Geuss he didnt read Tuxfords post that the more you flame and troll your less likley to get a reply, and thats just for other players wonder what the devs do when you flame/troll them
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.28 20:49:00 -
[956 ]
Edited by: Yodohime Kibagami on 28/06/2006 20:49:21 Edited by: Yodohime Kibagami on 28/06/2006 20:48:54 Quote: Changing lasers from em > thermal to thermal > em, shouldn't be done, primary damage is em for amarr(like it is explosive for minmatar, kinetic for caldari and thermal for gallente). Right... so why are all t1 hybrid ammo having more kinetic than thermal damage if thermal is Gallente racial damage?
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 20:51:00 -
[957 ]
Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami Edited by: Yodohime Kibagami on 28/06/2006 20:49:21 Edited by: Yodohime Kibagami on 28/06/2006 20:48:54 Quote: Changing lasers from em > thermal to thermal > em, shouldn't be done, primary damage is em for amarr(like it is explosive for minmatar, kinetic for caldari and thermal for gallente). Right... so why are all t1 hybrid ammo having more kinetic than thermal damage if thermal is Gallente racial damage? Daft isn't it? Close-range hybrid ammos should be thermal/kinetic, while long-range should be kinetic/thermal. T2 blaster ammo should be mainly thermal (I haven't checked to see if it is or not) and T2 railgun ammo mostly kinetic.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.28 20:57:00 -
[958 ]
Quote: Daft isn't it? Close-range hybrid ammos should be thermal/kinetic, while long-range should be kinetic/thermal. T2 blaster ammo should be mainly thermal (I haven't checked to see if it is or not) and T2 railgun ammo mostly kinetic. Quite so /signed (Both t2 ammo types have more thermal, another victory for consistency)
Commander Thrawn
Posted - 2006.06.28 21:18:00 -
[959 ]
just give us explosive t2 crystal and 15% less cap instead of 10%. done and done :)
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 21:20:00 -
[960 ]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn just give us explosive t2 crystal and 15% less cap instead of 10%. done and done :) Think up something just as good for Minmatar and you'll get explosive crystals. I really wish the devs hadn't even mentioned them tbh :/TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.28 21:33:00 -
[961 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn just give us explosive t2 crystal and 15% less cap instead of 10%. done and done :) Think up something just as good for Minmatar and you'll get explosive crystals. I really wish the devs hadn't even mentioned them tbh :/ dont you already have that in your tech2 ships?, almost total immunity against current amarr dmg ? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Cudeiro
Posted - 2006.06.28 21:33:00 -
[962 ]
Edited by: Cudeiro on 28/06/2006 21:33:46 Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn just give us explosive t2 crystal and 15% less cap instead of 10%. done and done :) Think up something just as good for Minmatar and you'll get explosive crystals. I really wish the devs hadn't even mentioned them tbh :/ You asked for ithttp://www.eco-servicesrl.it/a_8_EN_94_1.html "for the glory of General Tani"
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.28 21:39:00 -
[963 ]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn just give us explosive t2 crystal and 15% less cap instead of 10%. done and done :) emp hybrid ammo plz
Testicular Testes
Posted - 2006.06.28 22:01:00 -
[964 ]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: eLLioTT wave Looking at it now i think the bonus should be changed to 6% per level as well as the no penalty. with 6% per level @ lvl5 youd have 90%em 50%exp 55%kin 65%therm. that would give amarr tanking its edge :D (sure it might make 1v1 amarr fights a bit boring with 90% em :P) Yes, lets break the game entirely by giving the Sacri a 105% resistance to explosive damage 105%? Anyways, there are ships that come with 92,5% UNHARDENED EM resistance. Could almost call that immunity. minmatar assaults got the same resist boost as amarr got, 75% on their enemies' primary and 50% on their enemies primary. sure that gives minmatar an edge over lasers but guess what... There is 2 huge holes in resistances a Providence can pass through... The Minmatar T1 bonus is 2.5 times larger than that of Amarr :)
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 22:41:00 -
[965 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn just give us explosive t2 crystal and 15% less cap instead of 10%. done and done :) Think up something just as good for Minmatar and you'll get explosive crystals. I really wish the devs hadn't even mentioned them tbh :/ dont you already have that in your tech2 ships?, almost total immunity against current amarr dmg ? We have the lowest DPS, hence getting explosive damage. Do you really think Amarr should get almost the top DPS and crystals to target the most common weakest resistance? Think very carefully about your answer. You're *****ing about not being able to kill 2 HACs and 2 Assault Frigates easily. I can't kill Caldari ships easily as they get damage bonuses to my weakest resist. Shall I cry on the forums about it and claim all Minmatar ships are useless because I have a hard time with some Caldari ships? And remember, conflag is almost 50/50 EM/Thermal. Yes I know it messes up your tracking but so does hail, which is completely useless against Amarr T2 ships due to their super-high explosive resistances. Finally, please try and remember the big picture. Explosive crystals won't make you able to kill 4 minmatar ships easier, it will let you kill virtually everything easier.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Commander Thrawn
Posted - 2006.06.28 22:48:00 -
[966 ]
Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 28/06/2006 22:48:46 Originally by: Sarmaul Finally, please try and remember the big picture. Explosive crystals won't make you able to kill 4 minmatar ships easier, it will let you kill virtually everything easier. as apposed to not being able to kill anything easier AKA: em dmg ya id like that. it doesn' have to be a crystal that does mad dmg, just a crystal that gives us the option
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 22:58:00 -
[967 ]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 28/06/2006 22:48:46 Originally by: Sarmaul Finally, please try and remember the big picture. Explosive crystals won't make you able to kill 4 minmatar ships easier, it will let you kill virtually everything easier. as apposed to not being able to kill anything easier AKA: em dmg ya id like that. it doesn' have to be a crystal that does mad dmg, just a crystal that gives us the option Anything not running an EANM tank (i.e. everything besides a couple of battleships) will have resistances that are virtually the same, meaning the type of damage you do isn't important, it's how much damage in total you do.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.28 23:08:00 -
[968 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn just give us explosive t2 crystal and 15% less cap instead of 10%. done and done :) Think up something just as good for Minmatar and you'll get explosive crystals. I really wish the devs hadn't even mentioned them tbh :/ dont you already have that in your tech2 ships?, almost total immunity against current amarr dmg ? We have the lowest DPS, hence getting explosive damage. Do you really think Amarr should get almost the top DPS and crystals to target the most common weakest resistance? Think very carefully about your answer. You're *****ing about not being able to kill 2 HACs and 2 Assault Frigates easily. I can't kill Caldari ships easily as they get damage bonuses to my weakest resist. Shall I cry on the forums about it and claim all Minmatar ships are useless because I have a hard time with some Caldari ships? And remember, conflag is almost 50/50 EM/Thermal. Yes I know it messes up your tracking but so does hail, which is completely useless against Amarr T2 ships due to their super-high explosive resistances. Finally, please try and remember the big picture. Explosive crystals won't make you able to kill 4 minmatar ships easier, it will let you kill virtually everything easier. maybe amarr shouldnt get explosive, maybe they should. one thing is sure though that even though conflag got 50/50 EM/Thermal it is totally useless against vagabonds that can go over 3k/sec and have over 90%+ EM and Thermal resist. maybe we should nerf the vagabond instead seeing as it is way to fast or have way to much resist at the same time. personally id be happy with getting a useful bonus to the ships instead of a wasted on and to have the guns sorted for fittings by either a grid increase on the ships or by a grid reduction on the amarr guns. also a swap of thermal to primary dmg on crystals would be very welcomed. a laser beam that hits a surface produces alot of heat and not electromagnetic interference wich is what EM is. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.28 23:11:00 -
[969 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 28/06/2006 22:48:46 Originally by: Sarmaul Finally, please try and remember the big picture. Explosive crystals won't make you able to kill 4 minmatar ships easier, it will let you kill virtually everything easier. as apposed to not being able to kill anything easier AKA: em dmg ya id like that. it doesn' have to be a crystal that does mad dmg, just a crystal that gives us the option Anything not running an EANM tank (i.e. everything besides a couple of battleships) will have resistances that are virtually the same, meaning the type of damage you do isn't important, it's how much damage in total you do. dmg from amarr guns was balanced to how resists worked before the EANM2 tanks with the compensation skills came about together with the introduction of the dmg control units. now amarr's main DMG EM is the most resisted one compared to what it was before those modules/skills was introduced. it was balanced dmg/res before now it isnt. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 23:17:00 -
[970 ]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 28/06/2006 23:17:29 Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 28/06/2006 22:48:46 Originally by: Sarmaul Finally, please try and remember the big picture. Explosive crystals won't make you able to kill 4 minmatar ships easier, it will let you kill virtually everything easier. as apposed to not being able to kill anything easier AKA: em dmg ya id like that. it doesn' have to be a crystal that does mad dmg, just a crystal that gives us the option Anything not running an EANM tank (i.e. everything besides a couple of battleships) will have resistances that are virtually the same, meaning the type of damage you do isn't important, it's how much damage in total you do. dmg from amarr guns was balanced to how resists worked before the EANM2 tanks with the compensation skills came about together with the introduction of the dmg control units. now amarr's main DMG EM is the most resisted one compared to what it was before those modules/skills was introduced. it was balanced dmg/res before now it isnt. Fitting 3 EANM IIs with maxed compensation skills gives the same resistances as if you fit 4 T1 active hardeners. 3 EANM IIs and the best named damage control is comparable to fitting 4 T2 active hardeners. The only issue is by training 8 skill ranks to level 5 you get to fit 3 modules that do the job of 4 and use no cap. If you use EANMs, everyone's damage is reduced by the same amount , so if you say that the damage was balanced before the skills were added, it's still balanced now as every turret, missile and drone gets an identical damage reduction.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Guillame Herschel
Posted - 2006.06.28 23:28:00 -
[971 ]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 28/06/2006 23:29:02 Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami Right... so why are all t1 hybrid ammo having more kinetic than thermal damage if thermal is Gallente racial damage? Because Gallente are drone specialists and the Gallente thermal drones have the highest damage multiplier of any drone, thereby making thermal the primary Gallente damage type, for players doing Gallente the way they were intended. Next question?
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 23:30:00 -
[972 ]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 28/06/2006 23:29:02 Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami Right... so why are all t1 hybrid ammo having more kinetic than thermal damage if thermal is Gallente racial damage? Because Gallente are drone specialists and the Gallente thermal drones have the highest damage multiplier of any drone, thereby making thermal the primary Gallente damage type, for players doing Gallente the way they were intended. Next question? But Amarr also have specialist drone ships but EM drones to the least damage.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Guillame Herschel
Posted - 2006.06.28 23:39:00 -
[973 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul But Amarr also have specialist drone ships but EM drones to the least damage. Drones are secondary damage for Amarr the way hybrids are secondary damage for Caldari and Gallente. Yes, there are ships in each fleet that specialize in the secondary damage type, but Gallente are clearly the drone specialists with the only drone BS in the game.
Commander Thrawn
Posted - 2006.06.28 23:48:00 -
[974 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 28/06/2006 22:48:46 Originally by: Sarmaul Finally, please try and remember the big picture. Explosive crystals won't make you able to kill 4 minmatar ships easier, it will let you kill virtually everything easier. as apposed to not being able to kill anything easier AKA: em dmg ya id like that. it doesn' have to be a crystal that does mad dmg, just a crystal that gives us the option Anything not running an EANM tank (i.e. everything besides a couple of battleships) will have resistances that are virtually the same, meaning the type of damage you do isn't important, it's how much damage in total you do. dmg from amarr guns was balanced to how resists worked before the EANM2 tanks with the compensation skills came about together with the introduction of the dmg control units. now amarr's main DMG EM is the most resisted one compared to what it was before those modules/skills was introduced. it was balanced dmg/res before now it isnt. exactly the vast majority of armor tanking ships fitted for pvp are currently using Eanm. This means most ship will have very high EM resistance. therefore nerfing Amarr primary dmg. Its even worse in fleet engagements
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.28 23:50:00 -
[975 ]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn exactly the vast majority of armor tanking ships fitted for pvp are currently using Eanm. This means most ship will have very high EM resistance. therefore nerfing Amarr primary dmg. Its even worse in fleet engagements Except everyone's is reduced by the same amount when using pure EANM/DC tanks meaning the big balance doesn't actually change.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Cohkka
Posted - 2006.06.29 00:20:00 -
[976 ]
//diclaimer: I didn't read the whole thread. Malken, your arguments were better at times. If you want to prove something, do the maths and show them here like Sarmaul did with top tier ACs. Otherwise this discussion leads to nothing, only attracking more clueless, whiny Amarr trolls like Godar. Even if there IS a problem, I don't think Amarr should get explosive crystals. It messes up racial preferences. The common argument for minmatar is that they can choose damage, but it's half the truth: Your closerange ammo is dealing 10% less damage than Hybrid/crystals and you loose even more DPS if you want to do anything else than EM/Expl at close range (another 10% for PP and Fusion). It's even worse with longrange ammo, you can't choose damagetypes since they depend on your range. Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5...
Commander Thrawn
Posted - 2006.06.29 00:32:00 -
[977 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 28/06/2006 23:17:29 Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 28/06/2006 22:48:46 Originally by: Sarmaul Finally, please try and remember the big picture. Explosive crystals won't make you able to kill 4 minmatar ships easier, it will let you kill virtually everything easier. as apposed to not being able to kill anything easier AKA: em dmg ya id like that. it doesn' have to be a crystal that does mad dmg, just a crystal that gives us the option Anything not running an EANM tank (i.e. everything besides a couple of battleships) will have resistances that are virtually the same, meaning the type of damage you do isn't important, it's how much damage in total you do. dmg from amarr guns was balanced to how resists worked before the EANM2 tanks with the compensation skills came about together with the introduction of the dmg control units. now amarr's main DMG EM is the most resisted one compared to what it was before those modules/skills was introduced. it was balanced dmg/res before now it isnt. Fitting 3 EANM IIs with maxed compensation skills gives the same resistances as if you fit 4 T1 active hardeners. 3 EANM IIs and the best named damage control is comparable to fitting 4 T2 active hardeners. The only issue is by training 8 skill ranks to level 5 you get to fit 3 modules that do the job of 4 and use no cap. If you use EANMs, everyone's damage is reduced by the same amount , so if you say that the damage was balanced before the skills were added, it's still balanced now as every turret, missile and drone gets an identical damage reduction. this is way off lol. a typical setup pre compensation skill is 3 active hardener for everything but EM since em was already at 60%. now its 3 EANMs, this means the 3 other resists are just as good as with 3 actives, but its also boosting the 60% em which was not being boosted before, so your looking at 80% or more on EM. I really dunno how you missing the obvious here.
Shugo Kazuma
Posted - 2006.06.29 03:17:00 -
[978 ]
Just cut the cap use of laser by 50%, tweak some of the gun fitting requirements and give all the ships a new bonus in place of the cap reduction use. I mean it seems silly to have a "bonus" like that. It makes it look like they don't want anyone but amarr to fit lasers, but that's silly, otherwise every race would have that sort of bonus to keep other races from using non-racial weapons. Seems to me that all amarr ships with the capacitor bonus should have it replaces with +5% resist bonus instead, playing the way of ammar's superiorness in the field of armour. Would some ships have a double resist bonus? Well, they might have to look at that, but the amarr would definatly become the kings of armour tanking again. PS. Why are all the base resists on all ships the same? You'd think they'd make them more racial specific to spice up the game a bit. Like giving Caldari ship shields with higher base resists and lower armour resists since they supposedly have the most advanced shield systems in the known universe. You'd think they'd have made some breakthroughs that other races haven't.
Siro
Posted - 2006.06.29 06:21:00 -
[979 ]
Originally by: Shugo Kazuma Just cut the cap use of laser by 50%, tweak some of the gun fitting requirements and give all the ships a new bonus in place of the cap reduction use. I mean it seems silly to have a "bonus" like that. It makes it look like they don't want anyone but amarr to fit lasers, but that's silly, otherwise every race would have that sort of bonus to keep other races from using non-racial weapons. This is an excellent point. I think we can do one better though. Instead of changing lasers to use 50% less cap and giving amarr a bonus, we should nerf all the other races' weapons so that the require something ridiculous, then remove one of their bonuses to counteract the nerf. Like, for example, removing a damage bonus on a gallante ship, cutting down the size of their dronebay and then giving them a new bonus that increases the size of their drone bay back to what it was.
Reatu Krentor
Posted - 2006.06.29 06:37:00 -
[980 ]
Originally by: Shugo Kazuma Just cut the cap use of laser by 50%, tweak some of the gun fitting requirements and give all the ships a new bonus in place of the cap reduction use. I mean it seems silly to have a "bonus" like that. It makes it look like they don't want anyone but amarr to fit lasers, but that's silly, otherwise every race would have that sort of bonus to keep other races from using non-racial weapons. Seems to me that all amarr ships with the capacitor bonus should have it replaces with +5% resist bonus instead, playing the way of ammar's superiorness in the field of armour. Would some ships have a double resist bonus? Well, they might have to look at that, but the amarr would definatly become the kings of armour tanking again. That is exactly the reason why amarr ships get the cap reduction bonus, to discourage the use of lasers on other ships. It is the same way with projectiles and the RoF bonus on minmatar ships, without that bonus the damage output on projectiles is poor at best. Originally by: Shugo Kazuma PS. Why are all the base resists on all ships the same? You'd think they'd make them more racial specific to spice up the game a bit. Like giving Caldari ship shields with higher base resists and lower armour resists since they supposedly have the most advanced shield systems in the known universe. You'd think they'd have made some breakthroughs that other races haven't. Interesting thought here. - "I wish CONCORD would scream "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" when they turn up to blob you. " -_ Twilight Moon
Reatu Krentor
Posted - 2006.06.29 06:43:00 -
[981 ]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn Originally by: Sarmaul ... ... ... ... ... this is way off lol. a typical setup pre compensation skill is 3 active hardener for everything but EM since em was already at 60%. now its 3 EANMs, this means the 3 other resists are just as good as with 3 actives, but its also boosting the 60% em which was not being boosted before, so your looking at 80% or more on EM. I really dunno how you missing the obvious here. Sarmaul is correct, now everyone's damage is being reduced by the same amount. Before with the 3 active hardeners everyone but amarr had his damage reduced by the same amount. - "I wish CONCORD would scream "No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" when they turn up to blob you. " -_ Twilight Moon
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.06.29 06:50:00 -
[982 ]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Commander Thrawn Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn Originally by: Sarmaul ... ... ... ... ... this is way off lol. a typical setup pre compensation skill is 3 active hardener for everything but EM since em was already at 60%. now its 3 EANMs, this means the 3 other resists are just as good as with 3 actives, but its also boosting the 60% em which was not being boosted before, so your looking at 80% or more on EM. I really dunno how you missing the obvious here. Sarmaul is correct, now everyone's damage is being reduced by the same amount. Before with the 3 active hardeners everyone but amarr had his damage reduced by the same amount. I'm sure this is correct but I think the problem is EM resistance is already so insanely high and yet so insanely easy to get it higher
Commander Thrawn
Posted - 2006.06.29 06:52:00 -
[983 ]
Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 29/06/2006 06:53:38 Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Commander Thrawn Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn Originally by: Sarmaul ... ... ... ... ... this is way off lol. a typical setup pre compensation skill is 3 active hardener for everything but EM since em was already at 60%. now its 3 EANMs, this means the 3 other resists are just as good as with 3 actives, but its also boosting the 60% em which was not being boosted before, so your looking at 80% or more on EM. I really dunno how you missing the obvious here. Sarmaul is correct, now everyone's damage is being reduced by the same amount. Before with the 3 active hardeners everyone but amarr had his damage reduced by the same amount. that's just a stupid way of looking at it. Let me put it another way so you can understand the problem here. Rather then doing all the changes we are talking about. lets set explosive base resistance for armor on all ship in game to 60%. you know kinda like EM is right now. and change EM with whatever explosive currently is. add those nice EANM. and im sure all min pilot will be pleased
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 07:13:00 -
[984 ]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 29/06/2006 06:53:38 Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Commander Thrawn Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Commander Thrawn Originally by: Sarmaul ... ... ... ... ... this is way off lol. a typical setup pre compensation skill is 3 active hardener for everything but EM since em was already at 60%. now its 3 EANMs, this means the 3 other resists are just as good as with 3 actives, but its also boosting the 60% em which was not being boosted before, so your looking at 80% or more on EM. I really dunno how you missing the obvious here. Sarmaul is correct, now everyone's damage is being reduced by the same amount. Before with the 3 active hardeners everyone but amarr had his damage reduced by the same amount. that's just a stupid way of looking at it. Let me put it another way so you can understand the problem here. Rather then doing all the changes we are talking about. lets set explosive base resistance for armor on all ship in game to 60%. you know kinda like EM is right now. and change EM with whatever explosive currently is. add those nice EANM. and im sure all min pilot will be pleased Erm, it's called shield tanking with invul fields. How many minny pilots do you see calling for them to be nerfed again? /emote checks front page /emote checks page 2 /emote checks page 3 /emote checks page 4 /emote checks page 5 /emote checks page 6 /emote checks page 7 Not having much luck so far. Any chance you could check the other 993 pages in this forum to try and look for minnys *****ing about invul fields nerfing their primary damage type?TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.29 07:21:00 -
[985 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Any chance you could check the other 993 pages in this forum to try and look for minnys *****ing about invul fields nerfing their primary damage type? That's no wonder. Not many people are shield tanking at all nowadays. And if they do, the minmatar have the option to use phased plasma. I don't think I have to mention that laser users don't have any option to adapt to the target's form of tank.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 07:25:00 -
[986 ]
Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Sarmaul Any chance you could check the other 993 pages in this forum to try and look for minnys *****ing about invul fields nerfing their primary damage type? That's no wonder. Not many people are shield tanking at all nowadays. And if they do, the minmatar have the option to use phased plasma. I don't think I have to mention that laser users don't have any option to adapt to the target's form of tank. Neither do Hybrid users but do you see 30-page "I want explosive hybrid ammo" posts? Gallente get around only doing Kinetic and Thermal by carrying explosive drones. I suggest you do the same. And don't forget those launcher points are there for a reason... (* get on flame retardant suit) (yes I know this doesn't help the Zealot. Boohoo not all your ships are useful in every circumstance).TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Forsch
Posted - 2006.06.29 07:58:00 -
[987 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Neither do Hybrid users but do you see 30-page "I want explosive hybrid ammo" posts? Gallente get around only doing Kinetic and Thermal by carrying explosive drones. I suggest you do the same. Neither do hybrids have the problem of highly increased resistance to their main damage type, and you know that. Shooting armor with kinetic damage is alot more convenient than with EM. And don't fool me with using drones or missiles. You cannot base your main damage on a secondary weapon type (at most). Amarr ships don't have many missile slots and the arbi is the only ship with serious drone power. The arbitrator is a damn fine ship (partly because of that) and I don't think anyone wants to change it.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 08:08:00 -
[988 ]
Hybrids are resisted on every single tank, where-as Lasers only get it on EANM tanks (which also resist hybrids, projectiles, drones and missiles).TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
eLLioTT wave
Posted - 2006.06.29 08:30:00 -
[989 ]
can the non amarr supporters please stop posting in this thread, you arent helping our cause thx
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 08:40:00 -
[990 ]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave can the non amarr supporters please stop posting in this thread, you arent helping our cause thx If you can't defend your arguments for getting Amarr boosted then please stop posting, you aren't helping your own cause. Last time I checked this was a "discussion forum", not a "one-sided discussion forum".TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.29 08:41:00 -
[991 ]
Edited by: Spartan239 on 29/06/2006 08:41:26 nvm out *****d
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 08:42:00 -
[992 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 Edited by: Spartan239 on 29/06/2006 08:41:26 nvm out *****dTEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Spartan239
Posted - 2006.06.29 08:48:00 -
[993 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Spartan239 Edited by: Spartan239 on 29/06/2006 08:41:26 nvm out *****d I'm trying ot have breakfast and get dressed as I *****
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.29 09:20:00 -
[994 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Hybrids are resisted on every single tank, where-as Lasers only get it on EANM tanks (which also resist hybrids, projectiles, drones and missiles). How many idiots will use 3 active hardeners instead of 3 EANM II when it can give them better tank for all kin, expl, ther resistance plus a nicely extra EM tank as well as save them some cpu for other mods ?? Basically now, people will use 2 EANM IIs and a damage control for all pvp battle. they can save you tons of CPU and some cap plus a better tank unless you want to use faction hardeners for everyday pvp practice. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
eLLioTT wave
Posted - 2006.06.29 10:38:00 -
[995 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul If you can't defend your arguments for getting Amarr boosted then please stop posting, you aren't helping your own cause. Last time I checked this was a "discussion forum", not a "one-sided discussion forum". someone needs to lighten up...
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.29 10:51:00 -
[996 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: eLLioTT wave can the non amarr supporters please stop posting in this thread, you arent helping our cause thx If you can't defend your arguments for getting Amarr boosted then please stop posting, you aren't helping your own cause. Last time I checked this was a "discussion forum", not a "one-sided discussion forum". well you arent discussing atm, you are just trolling. and yes ppl used to have 3 active hardeners before EANM2 came along and none of those were EM hardeners so now with EANM2 tanks you get your others up to the same level they were with 3 active hardeners and you get a boost of your EM resistance wich breaks the dmg balance that amarr had. i think someone calculated it earlier and the relative increase in EM resistance were 80% higher then what you had before. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 10:59:00 -
[997 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: eLLioTT wave can the non amarr supporters please stop posting in this thread, you arent helping our cause thx If you can't defend your arguments for getting Amarr boosted then please stop posting, you aren't helping your own cause. Last time I checked this was a "discussion forum", not a "one-sided discussion forum". well you arent discussing atm, you are just trolling. and yes ppl used to have 3 active hardeners before EANM2 came along and none of those were EM hardeners so now with EANM2 tanks you get your others up to the same level they were with 3 active hardeners and you get a boost of your EM resistance wich breaks the dmg balance that amarr had. i think someone calculated it earlier and the relative increase in EM resistance were 80% higher then what you had before. Refuting and debating the points being raised isn't trolling. EM resistances with 3xEANM tanks have gone up to 80%, which is an increase of 50% (i.e. one active t1 hardener), and have gone up to just over 80% if you add another damage control (which works out as about 1 T2 hardener).TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Swiftness
Posted - 2006.06.29 11:04:00 -
[998 ]
Funny how in the "nerf caldari" whine threads, it looks like everyones flies shield-tanked ravens ; while in the "boost amarr" ones, it seems like everyone flies armor tanked megathrons/tempests.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.29 11:04:00 -
[999 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: eLLioTT wave can the non amarr supporters please stop posting in this thread, you arent helping our cause thx If you can't defend your arguments for getting Amarr boosted then please stop posting, you aren't helping your own cause. Last time I checked this was a "discussion forum", not a "one-sided discussion forum". well you arent discussing atm, you are just trolling. and yes ppl used to have 3 active hardeners before EANM2 came along and none of those were EM hardeners so now with EANM2 tanks you get your others up to the same level they were with 3 active hardeners and you get a boost of your EM resistance wich breaks the dmg balance that amarr had. i think someone calculated it earlier and the relative increase in EM resistance were 80% higher then what you had before. Refuting and debating the points being raised isn't trolling. EM resistances with 3xEANM tanks have gone up to 80%, which is an increase of 50% (i.e. one active t1 hardener), and have gone up to just over 80% if you add another damage control (which works out as about 1 T2 hardener). now you arent reading at all just rambling on harping the same thing, read it again abit closer and with more attantion. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 11:08:00 -
[1000 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: eLLioTT wave can the non amarr supporters please stop posting in this thread, you arent helping our cause thx If you can't defend your arguments for getting Amarr boosted then please stop posting, you aren't helping your own cause. Last time I checked this was a "discussion forum", not a "one-sided discussion forum". well you arent discussing atm, you are just trolling. and yes ppl used to have 3 active hardeners before EANM2 came along and none of those were EM hardeners so now with EANM2 tanks you get your others up to the same level they were with 3 active hardeners and you get a boost of your EM resistance wich breaks the dmg balance that amarr had. i think someone calculated it earlier and the relative increase in EM resistance were 80% higher then what you had before. Refuting and debating the points being raised isn't trolling. EM resistances with 3xEANM tanks have gone up to 80%, which is an increase of 50% (i.e. one active t1 hardener), and have gone up to just over 80% if you add another damage control (which works out as about 1 T2 hardener). now you arent reading at all just rambling on harping the same thing, read it again abit closer and with more attantion. You clearly state that the relative increase in EM resistance was 80% higher than it was before. If you were actually suggesting was that the average EM armour resistance is 80% - higher than before, then I suggest you try typing it instead of flaming people for your mistakes. Originally by: Swiftness Funny how in the "nerf caldari" whine threads, it looks like everyones flies shield-tanked ravens ; while in the "boost amarr" ones, it seems like everyone flies armor tanked megathrons/tempests.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.29 11:24:00 -
[1001 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 29/06/2006 11:26:18 Originally by: Sarmaul Refuting and debating the points being raised isn't trolling. Refusing or dodging around a point continually isn't debating, though. Which is, in MacQueens words "How many idiots will use 3 active hardeners instead of 3 EANM II when it can give them better tank for all kin, expl, ther resistance plus a nicely extra EM tank as well as save them some cpu for other mods ?? Basically now, people will use 2 EANM IIs and a damage control for all pvp battle. they can save you tons of CPU and some cap plus a better tank unless you want to use faction hardeners for everyday pvp practice. " 2 EAN2 + DC is the best allround harderner setup now - if you are the opinion it isn't please say so. And give a better alternative. Lasers are better vs shields than armor. Which would be ok if there wouldn't be 2 problems: A) We have more armortankers than shieldtankers in the game and B) med slot usability for PvP being >>> low slot usability for PvP makes even traditional shieldtankers switching to an armortank to save meds for EW, webber, warp disruptor, etc. Meaning: most PvP fitted ships use an armortank. Pre-RMR the standart allround harderner setup were exp, kin, ther active ones. Which gave t1 ships pretty much the same em, ther, kin and exp resistances. Meaning lasers were typically not worse vs armor than other weapons. But, yes, they are still killing shields faster. But they are also the weapon type most vulnerable to nossing. And Amarr ships have the least med slots and have a tie with minnies for the ships with the least sensor strengths, so they are the worst ships for ECM, which is a major part of PvP. These 2 disadvantages counter IMO the "taking down shields faster" advantage of them quite well. Post-RMR we have the EAN2 + DC setup, which gives us pretty much the same ther, kin and exp resistances, but is reducing EM damage by 50% more than the old setup. Because of this comments like "Hybrids are resisted on every single tank, where-as Lasers only get it on EANM tanks (which also resist hybrids, projectiles, drones and missiles). " are BS. The resistance situation for hybrids, projectiles and drones has not changed at all . Only that of lasers has. Are you ignoring the point or do you not understand it?
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 11:27:00 -
[1002 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Which is, in MacQueens words How many idiots will use 3 active hardeners instead of 3 EANM II when it can give them better tank for all kin, expl, ther resistance plus a nicely extra EM tank as well as save them some cpu for other mods ?? Basically now, people will use 2 EANM IIs and a damage control for all pvp battle. they can save you tons of CPU and some cap plus a better tank unless you want to use faction hardeners for everyday pvp practice. 2 EAN2 + DC is the best allround harderner setup now - if you are the opinion it isn't please say so. And give a better alternative. Lasers are better vs shields than armor. Which would be ok if there wouldn't be 2 problems: A) We have more armortankers than shieldtankers in the game and B) med slot usability for PvP being >>> low slot usability for PvP makes even traditional shieldtankers switching to an armortank to save meds for EW, webber, warp disruptor, etc. Meaning: most PvP fitted ships use an armortank. Pre-RMR the standart allround harderner setup were exp, kin, ther active ones. Which gave t1 ships pretty much the same em, ther, kin and exp resistances. Meaning lasers were typically not worse vs armor than other weapons. But, yes, they are still killing shields faster. But they are also the weapon type most vulnerable to nossing. And Amarr ships have the least med slots and have a tie with minnies for the ships with the least sensor strengths, so they are the worst ships for ECM, which is a major part of PvP. These 2 disadvantages counter IMO the "taking down shields faster" advantage of them quite well. Post-RMR we have the EAN2 + DC setup, which gives use pretty much the same ther, kin and exp resistances, but is reducing EM damage by 50% more than the old setup. Because of this comments like "Hybrids are resisted on every single tank, where-as Lasers only get it on EANM tanks (which also resist hybrids, projectiles, drones and missiles). " are BS. The resistance situation for hybrids, projectiles and drones has not changed at all . Only that of lasers has. Are you ignoring the point or do you not understand it? \o/ that's the kind of post I like gimmie a mo, I need to crunch some numbersTEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.29 11:28:00 -
[1003 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul You clearly state that the relative increase in EM resistance was 80% higher than it was before. If you were actually suggesting was that the average EM armour resistance is 80% - higher than before, then I suggest you try typing it instead of flaming people for your mistakes. again you are not reading properly, i stated that there was a "relative" increase of 80% resist with a EANM2 tank on EM resist while the other dmg types have stayed about the same on a EANM2 tank as they were with the old style Kin/Exp/Therm active hardener tank to wich the amarr dmg output where balanced. ppl only fitted a EM active hardener when they were 100% sure they would meet 7 heatsink gankageddons. and today even ravens use the EANM2 tanks in pvp and fill their mids with ECM. and no its not like amarr got anything close to add one hardener and be untouchable by minmatars like you can do in a vagabond and cruise around at over 3k/sec at the same time. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.29 12:22:00 -
[1004 ]
Originally by: Hakuin Edited by: Hakuin on 27/06/2006 15:59:40 Ok, the last episode "Whine whine whine, small pulse laser are pretty rediculous". Tier3 small guns, let's check cpu/pg: Light Neutron Blaster I : Cpu 17 PowerGrid 9 Light Neutron Blaster II: Cpu 19 PowerGrid 10 200mm Autocannon I : Cpu 9 PowerGrid 4 200mm Autocannon II: Cpu 9 PowerGrid 4 Medium Pulse Laser I : Cpu 16 PowerGrid 11 Medium Pulse Laser II: Cpu 17 PowerGrid 12 Finally blaster take the nerf here too. just thought i would add ... :) Crusader has to fit 4 turrets so 4 x 17 = 68 grid taranis only has 3 with uber bonuses 3 x 19 = 57 ofc thats not taking skills into account ;) autocannons are so easy to fit, its no wonder the crusader does better with autocannons
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 12:37:00 -
[1005 ]
Quote: Pre-RMR the standart allround harderner setup were exp, kin, ther active ones. Which gave t1 ships pretty much the same em, ther, kin and exp resistances. Meaning lasers were typically not worse vs armor than other weapons. But, yes, they are still killing shields faster. But they are also the weapon type most vulnerable to nossing. And Amarr ships have the least med slots and have a tie with minnies for the ships with the least sensor strengths, so they are the worst ships for ECM, which is a major part of PvP. These 2 disadvantages counter IMO the "taking down shields faster" advantage of them quite well. Post-RMR we have the EAN2 + DC setup, which gives us pretty much the same ther, kin and exp resistances, but is reducing EM damage by 50% more than the old setup. Because of this comments like "Hybrids are resisted on every single tank, where-as Lasers only get it on EANM tanks (which also resist hybrids, projectiles, drones and missiles)." are BS. The resistance situation for hybrids, projectiles and drones has not changed at all. Only that of lasers has. Are you ignoring the point or do you not understand it? Due to their higher base DPS, they were more effective than autocannons and blasters (except for extreme close range with blasters). Lets say all resistances are about 60%, which means everyone's guns are only going to be doing 40% damage. That doesn't mean they will be doing equal damage - lasers do more damage to begin so by removing 40% of their damage they will still do more damage than if you removed 40% from projectiles or blasters at range. With the 2 "problematic" Post-RMR, EANM/DC setups, the high-EM crystals were made less effective against armour tanks (much like invul fields against high-explosive ammo). I'll agree with that. However, what I don't agree with is that 2 hardener layouts on T1 resistances that leave amarr at a slight disadvantage warrant (all taken from this thread btw): 1) A massive cap reduction for lasers 2) Crystals becoming Thermal primary and EM secondary 3) An overall DPS boost 4) Large amounts of explosive-damage crystals 5) Small amounts of explosive-damage crystals There are 2 "solutions" to the problem - nerf EANMs back to how they were before, or change the bias on one of the high-damage crystals from EM to thermal, not all of them. Or, help me get the Khanid changes pushed through and you have missile spamming armour tankers and you can do as much explosive damage as you like. Anyway this thread is going round in circles. Quote: and no its not like amarr got anything close to add one hardener and be untouchable by minmatars like you can do in a vagabond and cruise around at over 3k/sec at the same time. Waa waa waa I want a ship like the vagabondTEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 12:37:00 -
[1006 ]
Quote: Which is, in MacQueens words "How many idiots will use 3 active hardeners instead of 3 EANM II when it can give them better tank for all kin, expl, ther resistance plus a nicely extra EM tank as well as save them some cpu for other mods ?? Basically now, people will use 2 EANM IIs and a damage control for all pvp battle. they can save you tons of CPU and some cap plus a better tank unless you want to use faction hardeners for everyday pvp practice." 2 EAN2 + DC is the best allround harderner setup now - if you are the opinion it isn't please say so. And give a better alternative. You're right - people with 3 slots for armour hardeners are more than likely going to use 3xEANM II or 2xEANM II and a DC, much like people with only 2 shots for shield hardeners will probably use invulnerbility fields (which give roughly the same as 4 T1 active hardeners) or 2 invul and a damage control (roughtly 4 T2 active hardeners). That means Amarr have to face high-EM (switch to conflag) and Minmatar have to face high explosive (switch to phased plasma). However, some ships have more slots for tanking and will fix a mixture of EANM IIs and active hardeners, the result of which are practically equal resistances across the board, which puts us back in the "most DPS wins" realm as all damage types are being resisted equally. The other side is that some people have less than 3 slots for hardeners, in which case it's more advisable to fit to harden against what you have a hard time beating (claws fitting magnetic plating to help against taranis's and bastard rocket crows is a good example of this). Finally, ships with T2 assault resistances patch their holes first and fit EANM IIs second, again giving roughly equal resistances. Claiming your entire race sucks because of two configurations of hardeners on T1 resistances leaves you at a disadvantage does not warrent a DPS boost or explosive crystals. Quote: Lasers are better vs shields than armor. Which would be ok if there wouldn't be 2 problems: A) We have more armortankers than shieldtankers in the game and B) med slot usability for PvP being >>> low slot usability for PvP makes even traditional shieldtankers switching to an armortank to save meds for EW, webber, warp disruptor, etc. Meaning: most PvP fitted ships use an armortank. Which indicates that ewar modules are too strong (which is the subject of another topic). I personally would love it if armour tanking and shield tanking modules were both low-slots and ships has vastly disproportionate amounts of shield and armour to "force" them into a particular style of tanking. But anyway, I'm going into fantasy land. Yes there are more armour tanking ships in game and the problem lies with minmatar, as CCP can't decide whether they are armour tankers or shield tankers. Shield tankers running armour tanks generally suck due to having lower hitpoints and slots, and again with T2 ships it doesn't matter whether you're shield or armour tanking, you patch up the holes first then fit EANM IIs to increase all resists.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.06.29 13:01:00 -
[1007 ]
Edited by: Yodohime Kibagami on 29/06/2006 13:01:37 Quote: Waa waa waa I want a ship like the vagabond How is that -not- trolling?
Oosel
Posted - 2006.06.29 13:02:00 -
[1008 ]
have the last couple of pages of discussion been based on amarr pvp setups or pve as well as i still use 3 active hardners but maybe thats because i spent most of my time in sansha type areas this works far better for me but then again i avoid pvp like the plague
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 13:11:00 -
[1009 ]
Originally by: Oosel have the last couple of pages of discussion been based on amarr pvp setups or pve as well as i still use 3 active hardners but maybe thats because i spent most of my time in sansha type areas this works far better for me but then again i avoid pvp like the plague PVP. For NPC fit whatever hardeners work best against the rats you are fighting (EM/Therm for Sanshas).TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 13:11:00 -
[1010 ]
Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami Quote: Waa waa waa I want a ship like the vagabond How is that -not- trolling? Okay I'll admit, that was trolling a little TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.06.29 13:30:00 -
[1011 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Aramendel Which is, in MacQueens words How many idiots will use 3 active hardeners instead of 3 EANM II when it can give them better tank for all kin, expl, ther resistance plus a nicely extra EM tank as well as save them some cpu for other mods ?? Basically now, people will use 2 EANM IIs and a damage control for all pvp battle. they can save you tons of CPU and some cap plus a better tank unless you want to use faction hardeners for everyday pvp practice. 2 EAN2 + DC is the best allround harderner setup now - if you are the opinion it isn't please say so. And give a better alternative. Lasers are better vs shields than armor. Which would be ok if there wouldn't be 2 problems: A) We have more armortankers than shieldtankers in the game and B) med slot usability for PvP being >>> low slot usability for PvP makes even traditional shieldtankers switching to an armortank to save meds for EW, webber, warp disruptor, etc. Meaning: most PvP fitted ships use an armortank. Pre-RMR the standart allround harderner setup were exp, kin, ther active ones. Which gave t1 ships pretty much the same em, ther, kin and exp resistances. Meaning lasers were typically not worse vs armor than other weapons. But, yes, they are still killing shields faster. But they are also the weapon type most vulnerable to nossing. And Amarr ships have the least med slots and have a tie with minnies for the ships with the least sensor strengths, so they are the worst ships for ECM, which is a major part of PvP. These 2 disadvantages counter IMO the "taking down shields faster" advantage of them quite well. Post-RMR we have the EAN2 + DC setup, which gives use pretty much the same ther, kin and exp resistances, but is reducing EM damage by 50% more than the old setup. Because of this comments like "Hybrids are resisted on every single tank, where-as Lasers only get it on EANM tanks (which also resist hybrids, projectiles, drones and missiles). " are BS. The resistance situation for hybrids, projectiles and drones has not changed at all . Only that of lasers has. Are you ignoring the point or do you not understand it? \o/ that's the kind of post I like gimmie a mo, I need to crunch some numbers owned :) How can u possibly think amarr is balanced now with these EAMN tanks ? Before amarr was slightly better than everyone else against armor with the standard active hardener tanks. But now our EM dmg is being resisted a whopping 50% MORE. at 80% em resistance only 20% of our EM dmg is actually getting through. Im sorry but we cant pick and choose our dmg types so we are stuck with EM and therm. Hence why ppl are asking for the swap in EM/therm (which imo wont solve the prob. Multifreq L = 28EM and 20 therm with resistances = 5.6 EM and 8 THERM assuming 80% EM and 60% therm. thats a total of 13.6 (15.2 if you swap EM and therm) Now lets look at L antimatter, 28 KINETIC, 20 THERM (oh look its main dmg is kinetic NOT therm) lets assume 60% kinetic and 60% therm resists. 11.2 kinetic, 8 therm = 19.2 [b]so Antimatter is now doing 40% more dmg to EAMN tanks than multifreq[b] this is very rough, but the point is still the same, amarr are getting shafted with EAMN tanks
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.06.29 13:33:00 -
[1012 ]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 29/06/2006 13:33:03 Originally by: Sarmaul With the 2 "problematic" Post-RMR, EANM/DC setups, the high-EM crystals were made less effective against armour tanks (much like invul fields against high-explosive ammo). I'll agree with that. However, what I don't agree with is that 2 hardener layouts on T1 resistances that leave amarr at a slight disadvantage warrant (all taken from this thread btw): 1) A massive cap reduction for lasers 2) Crystals becoming Thermal primary and EM secondary 3) An overall DPS boost 4) Large amounts of explosive-damage crystals 5) Small amounts of explosive-damage crystals There are 2 "solutions" to the problem - nerf EANMs back to how they were before, or change the bias on one of the high-damage crystals from EM to thermal, not all of them. Or, help me get the Khanid changes pushed through and you have missile spamming armour tankers and you can do as much explosive damage as you like. See, I do acknowledge it's a problem, but like I don't think massive DPS increases, crystals going against roleplay and all being high thermal, a high cap reduction for lasers or explosive crystals are the solution.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.29 13:58:00 -
[1013 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 29/06/2006 13:59:00 Originally by: Sarmaul However, some ships have more slots for tanking and will fix a mixture of EANM IIs and active hardeners, the result of which are practically equal resistances across the board, which puts us back in the "most DPS wins" realm as all damage types are being resisted equally. The other side is that some people have less than 3 slots for hardeners, in which case it's more advisable to fit to harden against what you have a hard time beating (claws fitting magnetic plating to help against taranis's and bastard rocket crows is a good example of this). Finally, ships with T2 assault resistances patch their holes first and fit EANM IIs second, again giving roughly equal resistances. Claiming your entire race sucks because of two configurations of hardeners on T1 resistances leaves you at a disadvantage does not warrent a DPS boost or explosive crystals. It's another thing alltogether for t2 ships, but: how many t2 ships you see at killboards compared to t1 ships (and not only as victims, but as victims and as killers)? Not that many compared to t1 ships. Which won't change until t2 ships get more affordable. And for BSs there are no t2 variations at all. And - even there using 2 active harderners for the holes and 1 EAN2 will give you EM as 2nd or 3rd highest resistance even if it was one of the holes previously. Also, using more then 3 slots for harderners is usually less effective overall than fitting a 2nd damage mod. In short: yes, there are ships which are not using the 2 EAN2 + DC setup, but most do. The problems are not as severe with t2 ships, but T2 ships get less common the higher you go up in the ship class (somewhat common for frigs, uncommon for cruisers and no present for BSs). This means that the EAN2 tanking problem is basically nonexistant with frigs (also few frigs have 3 slots for harderners), is noticeable with cruisers/BCs (which do not nearly have a as huge t2 ship saturation for PvP as frigs have and are typcially using 2-3 harderners) and is very common for BSs (which have no t2 reistances and where 3 harderners is pretty much the norm for a dps/tanking balanced setup. Generally lasers do not need a boost, but IMO EAN2 passive tanking needs a nerf. 3 passive tanking modules should not be more effective than 3 active ones. If EANs would be active instead of passive, had at least the same fitting requirements and would cost more cap/sec then normal harderners (aka like invul fields vs single res active harderners are for shields) it would be ok, but like now: smaller fitting reqs and no capuse and 3 modules doing the work of 4... That you have to spend 360k sp in armor comp skills does not justify this even remotely. Quote: Which indicates that ewar modules are too strong (which is the subject of another topic). I personally would love it if armour tanking and shield tanking modules were both low-slots and ships has vastly disproportionate amounts of shield and armour to "force" them into a particular style of tanking. But anyway, I'm going into fantasy land. It's not only EW, but also disruptors, cap boosters, webbers,...there are no low slot "essential" modules for a PvP fitting. Bringing EW back to the mortal plane would improve the situation a lot, but the "problem" would still be there, although in a much diminished form.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.29 14:09:00 -
[1014 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Due to their higher base DPS, they were more effective than autocannons and blasters (except for extreme close range with blasters). Lets say all resistances are about 60%, which means everyone's guns are only going to be doing 40% damage. That doesn't mean they will be doing equal damage - lasers do more damage to begin so by removing 40% of their damage they will still do more damage than if you removed 40% from projectiles or blasters at range. Putting all lasers in the "higher base DPS" pot is IMO wrong. Yes, pluse lasers do more damage than ACs (but also use a lot more cap). And blasters do more dps (and, honstely, it's for a MWD fitting ship no real problem to get in blaserrange from pulse laser range). But - what about beam lasers? When you compare these with a 50% cap reduction and similar rails with a 25% damage bonus both weapons will have pretty much the same dps (the one of rails is actually better, but they have to reload now and then, too), the same /cap/sec (rails being slightly less, but not by much) and similar range/tracking values (rails somewhat more range, somewhat worse tracking, beams somewhat less range, somewhat better tracking). Quote: There are 2 "solutions" to the problem - nerf EANMs back to how they were before, or change the bias on one of the high-damage crystals from EM to thermal, not all of them. Or, help me get the Khanid changes pushed through and you have missile spamming armour tankers and you can do as much explosive damage as you like. 1.) Not exactly like they were before, but they should NOT be better than active modules. Period. 2.) Been there, done that. Actually, I think it's again on the 2nd or 3rd page...
Sniser
Posted - 2006.06.29 16:45:00 -
[1015 ]
some people is forgotting the pain trying fit pulse/beam turrets. Numbers are around in this thread
Wodin Drukvik
Posted - 2006.06.29 17:04:00 -
[1016 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 29/06/2006 11:26:18 Originally by: Sarmaul Refuting and debating the points being raised isn't trolling. Refusing or dodging around a point continually isn't debating, though. Which is, in MacQueens words "How many idiots will use 3 active hardeners instead of 3 EANM II when it can give them better tank for all kin, expl, ther resistance plus a nicely extra EM tank as well as save them some cpu for other mods ?? Basically now, people will use 2 EANM IIs and a damage control for all pvp battle. they can save you tons of CPU and some cap plus a better tank unless you want to use faction hardeners for everyday pvp practice. " 2 EAN2 + DC is the best allround harderner setup now - if you are the opinion it isn't please say so. And give a better alternative. Lasers are better vs shields than armor. Which would be ok if there wouldn't be 2 problems: A) We have more armortankers than shieldtankers in the game and B) med slot usability for PvP being >>> low slot usability for PvP makes even traditional shieldtankers switching to an armortank to save meds for EW, webber, warp disruptor, etc. Meaning: most PvP fitted ships use an armortank. Pre-RMR the standart allround harderner setup were exp, kin, ther active ones. Which gave t1 ships pretty much the same em, ther, kin and exp resistances. Meaning lasers were typically not worse vs armor than other weapons. But, yes, they are still killing shields faster. But they are also the weapon type most vulnerable to nossing. And Amarr ships have the least med slots and have a tie with minnies for the ships with the least sensor strengths, so they are the worst ships for ECM, which is a major part of PvP. These 2 disadvantages counter IMO the "taking down shields faster" advantage of them quite well. Post-RMR we have the EAN2 + DC setup, which gives us pretty much the same ther, kin and exp resistances, but is reducing EM damage by 50% more than the old setup. Because of this comments like "Hybrids are resisted on every single tank, where-as Lasers only get it on EANM tanks (which also resist hybrids, projectiles, drones and missiles). " are BS. The resistance situation for hybrids, projectiles and drones has not changed at all . Only that of lasers has. Are you ignoring the point or do you not understand it? Thank you for articulating what I've tried a couple times but been unable to. Your eloquence is appreciated.
Alzion
Posted - 2006.06.29 17:49:00 -
[1017 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Due to their higher base DPS, they were more effective than autocannons and blasters (except for extreme close range with blasters). Lets say all resistances are about 60%, which means everyone's guns are only going to be doing 40% damage. That doesn't mean they will be doing equal damage - lasers do more damage to begin so by removing 40% of their damage they will still do more damage than if you removed 40% from projectiles or blasters at range. ship damage bonus > higher base damage --------------------------------------------- I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.29 19:03:00 -
[1018 ]
I am still on my points. Lasers are fine as they are now. We need only 2 things: 1. T2 Crystals that last much longer 2. 12% bonus to cap consumption instead of 10. That's all. REMEMBER AGAIN that when you make a confrontation to cap usage between hybrid turrets and laser, you automatically take in count that we, amarr, have LVL 5 in our spaceship skill (just for put a point on it!!).
Scary Noises
Posted - 2006.06.30 03:19:00 -
[1019 ]
Still no repsonse on this from the developers...
Antskyeeh
Posted - 2006.06.30 04:31:00 -
[1020 ]
A bit of a different take on this which I have not seen elsewhere, but in the event it's been said before sorry for not giving credit. Anyways, the problem to me seems to stem from the fact that EANs are disproportionately raising EM resist while taking the other resists to their previous levels, and for that fact invul fields are doing the same for shields and explosive dmg. I've always seen EANs and invul as "hole-filler" modules, kind of like pouring liquid cement to make your floor even (cause you want even resistances for general pvp). The problem is that in the current state they do not even things out but just add resists everywhere, or like adding a rigid plate on top of your uneven floor - it's still uneven, just higher. Crude example but I'm sure you get the point. My proposal would be to remove the EM resist factor from EANs (since armor has natural resists of 60%+ naturally) and the explosive resist factor from invul fields. That's right, have them be a module that SUPPLEMENTS what does not naturally exist there. Leave the specific damage type hardeners and plating do the job of raising a specific resistance.
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.06.30 07:38:00 -
[1021 ]
Originally by: Antskyeeh A bit of a different take on this which I have not seen elsewhere, but in the event it's been said before sorry for not giving credit. Anyways, the problem to me seems to stem from the fact that EANs are disproportionately raising EM resist while taking the other resists to their previous levels, and for that fact invul fields are doing the same for shields and explosive dmg. I've always seen EANs and invul as "hole-filler" modules, kind of like pouring liquid cement to make your floor even (cause you want even resistances for general pvp). The problem is that in the current state they do not even things out but just add resists everywhere, or like adding a rigid plate on top of your uneven floor - it's still uneven, just higher. Crude example but I'm sure you get the point. My proposal would be to remove the EM resist factor from EANs (since armor has natural resists of 60%+ naturally) and the explosive resist factor from invul fields. That's right, have them be a module that SUPPLEMENTS what does not naturally exist there. Leave the specific damage type hardeners and plating do the job of raising a specific resistance. I'll take this last post as I seen in here as a start. The topic now turning a bit too much about only EANM and the new skills problem, so I'll make a short summary about current concerned Amarr's problem, it's not all, only a few main points as I reckon: 1. Armor compensation skills make EANM far more useful and bring over "accidentally" EM tanking make laser far less effective. 2. Cap booster now having lower volume and so most people now able to bring both ammo and cap charge in their cargo, so most ship can be equiped with a cap booster and therefore negate the advantage in cap bonus of Amarr ships. The Apoc suffer this worst, extra cap bonus on it turn to a total wasted bonus. 3. Higher stacking penalty have remove Geddon out of its role: extreme ganker. This ship can not be a tanker due to short in cap, cpu and even grid, only a damage dealer. So now, it's suck on both. Lost of its role. 4. Extreme tight in fitting, especially about grid shortage and some ship, I'll pull out the Apoc for best example: this ship cant even fit enough Mega beam II on it without RCU, not to mention how to fit Tachs. 5. Ridiculous bonus and lay out set up in some tech II ship, the Retribution and Sacrillege are best example. Too many to mention in details but most of you knew it already. 6. Extreme vulnable to ECM and Tracking disruptor. Amarr ships having one of the lowest sensor strength to deal with ECM and we're shooting mainly on Optimal so a couple tracking disruptor will make our guns useless. 7. Ridiculous tech II crystal price: one tech II crystal now almost have the same price with the guns. 8. Finally, a total uncertain feeling about Amarr role: what are they good at ?? No longer extreme damage dealer, no longer the best tanker. We are still flying Amarr because it took us years to train for it so far, still digging tirelessly for the best of what ever we have for now but why shouldnt we have a voice, why shouldnt we have some justification on our efford ?? Why shouldnt we have some help out here when it's within reach ?? And why when the other race can say proudly: Caldari, the best ECM jammer, the best mission runner. Gallente, king of close range combat and dangerous drones boat. Minmatar, of extreme snipping, flexible on damage type, of their unbeatable moving speed. We, Amarr, what are we ??? ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Belial02
Posted - 2006.06.30 08:43:00 -
[1022 ]
- Let us fit full racks of our top weapons. - Give most ships one or two extra medslots, some are laughable really. - Give us useful bonuses.
MIstress Saki
Posted - 2006.06.30 11:15:00 -
[1023 ]
I agree here, Armarr as they are now lack specialisation. There are no good in anything. I have a friend who has started with the game with me. He has the same amount of skill point in Gallente ships as I in armarr ship. We have make many test runs. The result is, that a Megathron can tank like a Apoc and has better damage from its guns and 50m3 more drone space. I think CCP should give the again Armarr a specialisation. To keep them inline with the background they should give the Armarr a clearly advanced in armor / tanking. I prefer a better tanking ability more than better damage. As I also think the aim should be to extend the fighting time. What I want to see is the remove of 10% reduction bonus and replaces it with 5% armor resistance bonus. The other races can out damage us, have better ECM, speed but they should need some serious fire power to break our tanks. The only problem I see is the balance against NPC. But on the other side a raven will still be better, as it kill faster.
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.30 11:25:00 -
[1024 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: eLLioTT wave can the non amarr supporters please stop posting in this thread, you arent helping our cause thx If you can't defend your arguments for getting Amarr boosted then please stop posting, you aren't helping your own cause. Last time I checked this was a "discussion forum", not a "one-sided discussion forum". Exactly, last time i pointed out that: Boohoo 1 boost, 2 boost, 3 boost, Ammartime doesnt work. You will need arguments... Whining is an art, not just boost us kthxbye. _________________________________________________
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.30 11:43:00 -
[1025 ]
This goes the other way around, though, too. Quite a few "non-supporters" last impression with amarr ships seems to be around a year ago when the armageddon was omgwtfbbq. I think that ship is mentioned in this thread about as often as all other amarr ships put together.. As a result they quite often do not understand/see the problems which have shown themselves mainly in the last few months.
madaluap
Posted - 2006.06.30 11:52:00 -
[1026 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 30/06/2006 11:53:37 Originally by: Aramendel This goes the other way around, though, too. Quite a few "non-supporters" last impression with amarr ships seems to be around a year ago when the armageddon was omgwtfbbq. I think that ship is mentioned in this thread about as often as all other amarr ships put together.. As a result they quite often do not understand/see the problems which have shown themselves mainly in the last few months. Well the fact that i see a lot of "go away, i fly ammar only and armageddon pwns" is kinda weird. While other people say ammar is total crap. The blastermega was just total crap on every aspect. Just like the typhoon, it was obvious that they are bad. Everyone agreed on it. But with ammar nobody knows for sure what to boost.. _________________________________________________
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.06.30 12:22:00 -
[1027 ]
The armageddon is actually still a decent ship, just not overpowering. But the thing is: this does not mean amarr do not have problems. You could apply such comment just as well to gallente, aka "I fly a nosdomi and it absolutely powns! Blasters do not need a change!!1" When you concentrate your focus on a single ship you do not get a correct impression of the whole.
Slaveabuser
Posted - 2006.06.30 13:25:00 -
[1028 ]
Originally by: madaluap Well the fact that i see a lot of "go away, i fly ammar only and armageddon pwns" is kinda weird. That makes them just as incompitent to asnwer really, the vast majority of people who wants Amarr boosted is those that have enough sp and experiece to fly both. Quote: But with ammar nobody knows for sure what to boost.. Personally I dont see the need of explosve crystals. What I belive should change is -fitting requirements for lasers -cap bonus was a ok skills years ago when lasers were the ownage, today its useless. Replace this with a GOOD resistance bonus or on other ships such as the omen and geddon replace cap bonus with another damage bonus. -fix horrible fall of on lasers, if this means we have to use ammo like other races then thats cool by me. Killing the Minmatars since 22480 AD
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.06.30 14:14:00 -
[1029 ]
i think the idea is, amarr have nothing they're better at then other races, except for mining, and we should have some benefit of our backstory roles like uber tank/dmg. We have the penalties (sensor strength, sensitive to TD) but we don't have the benefits
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.06.30 16:31:00 -
[1030 ]
What? 35 pages already an no response? Isnt the arguments good enough, or do I really have to start train for Caldari? And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Xendie
Posted - 2006.06.30 17:13:00 -
[1031 ]
Originally by: Deathbarrage i think the idea is, amarr have nothing they're better at then other races, except for mining, and we should have some benefit of our backstory roles like uber tank/dmg. We have the penalties (sensor strength, sensitive to TD) but we don't have the benefits not even mining since the mining barges came. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
eLLioTT wave
Posted - 2006.06.30 17:24:00 -
[1032 ]
i can fit a rack of 425mms on a mega, im sure the same with artillery can be done on tempest, why cant i do it on apoc without a bunch of rcu's? tried geddon with tachys? lol
Nifel
Posted - 2006.06.30 17:46:00 -
[1033 ]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave i can fit a rack of 425mms on a mega, im sure the same with artillery can be done on tempest, why cant i do it on apoc without a bunch of rcu's? tried geddon with tachys? lol 6x 1400mm t2 can be fit on a tempest with awu5. You've got about 38 pg left so forget any kind of tanking apart from a small armor rep or something. And yes I have... it's the pwn in fleet battles. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.06.30 18:17:00 -
[1034 ]
Originally by: MacQueen Originally by: Antskyeeh A bit of a different take on this which I have not seen elsewhere, but in the event it's been said before sorry for not giving credit. Anyways, the problem to me seems to stem from the fact that EANs are disproportionately raising EM resist while taking the other resists to their previous levels, and for that fact invul fields are doing the same for shields and explosive dmg. I've always seen EANs and invul as "hole-filler" modules, kind of like pouring liquid cement to make your floor even (cause you want even resistances for general pvp). The problem is that in the current state they do not even things out but just add resists everywhere, or like adding a rigid plate on top of your uneven floor - it's still uneven, just higher. Crude example but I'm sure you get the point. My proposal would be to remove the EM resist factor from EANs (since armor has natural resists of 60%+ naturally) and the explosive resist factor from invul fields. That's right, have them be a module that SUPPLEMENTS what does not naturally exist there. Leave the specific damage type hardeners and plating do the job of raising a specific resistance. I'll take this last post as I seen in here as a start. The topic now turning a bit too much about only EANM and the new skills problem, so I'll make a short summary about current concerned Amarr's problem, it's not all, only a few main points as I reckon: 1. Armor compensation skills make EANM far more useful and bring over "accidentally" EM tanking make laser far less effective. 2. Cap booster now having lower volume and so most people now able to bring both ammo and cap charge in their cargo, so most ship can be equiped with a cap booster and therefore negate the advantage in cap bonus of Amarr ships. The Apoc suffer this worst, extra cap bonus on it turn to a total wasted bonus. 3. Higher stacking penalty have remove Geddon out of its role: extreme ganker. This ship can not be a tanker due to short in cap, cpu and even grid, only a damage dealer. So now, it's suck on both. Lost of its role. 4. Extreme tight in fitting, especially about grid shortage and some ship, I'll pull out the Apoc for best example: this ship cant even fit enough Mega beam II on it without RCU, not to mention how to fit Tachs. 5. Ridiculous bonus and lay out set up in some tech II ship, the Retribution and Sacrillege are best example. Too many to mention in details but most of you knew it already. 6. Extreme vulnable to ECM and Tracking disruptor. Amarr ships having one of the lowest sensor strength to deal with ECM and we're shooting mainly on Optimal so a couple tracking disruptor will make our guns useless. 7. Ridiculous tech II crystal price: one tech II crystal now almost have the same price with the guns. 8. Finally, a total uncertain feeling about Amarr role: what are they good at ?? No longer extreme damage dealer, no longer the best tanker. We are still flying Amarr because it took us years to train for it so far, still digging tirelessly for the best of what ever we have for now but why shouldnt we have a voice, why shouldnt we have some justification on our efford ?? Why shouldnt we have some help out here when it's within reach ?? And why when the other race can say proudly: Caldari, the best ECM jammer, the best mission runner. Gallente, king of close range combat and dangerous drones boat. Minmatar, of extreme snipping, flexible on damage type, of their unbeatable moving speed. We, Amarr, what are we ??? We are the one that use Lasers. LOL
Dalphi Zed
Posted - 2006.06.30 23:53:00 -
[1035 ]
wow 35 pages and still no dev reply :(
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.01 00:11:00 -
[1036 ]
Originally by: Dalphi Zed wow 35 pages and still no dev reply :( Why does everyone want a dev reply these days? The thread is 35 bloody pages long - do you really think Tuxford missed it?TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.07.01 00:17:00 -
[1037 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Dalphi Zed wow 35 pages and still no dev reply :( Why does everyone want a dev reply these days? The thread is 35 bloody pages long - do you really think Tuxford missed it? Looks like it And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Commander Thrawn
Posted - 2006.07.01 00:41:00 -
[1038 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Dalphi Zed wow 35 pages and still no dev reply :( Why does everyone want a dev reply these days? The thread is 35 bloody pages long - do you really think Tuxford missed it? we just want acknowledgement that they know there is an issue and are looking to resolve it
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.01 00:46:00 -
[1039 ]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Dalphi Zed wow 35 pages and still no dev reply :( Why does everyone want a dev reply these days? The thread is 35 bloody pages long - do you really think Tuxford missed it? we just want acknowledgement that they know there is an issue and are looking to resolve it And what if he doesn't think it's a major issue compared to all the other things that have been put in line to be fixed? Here's how ships and mods work: 1) People keep bumping their threads waiting for a dev reply 2) Dev replies and says "I'll try and look into it" 3) Everyone starts making new threads or bumping old ones *****ing that it hasn't been implemented yet, dispite the dev only saying that he will attempt to have a look at the situation. It's far easier for the dev to STFU and just announce the boost if he decides to make one at a later date (I've seen it happen many many times before - think back to blaster cap/cpu and the typhoon's missile bonus).TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Cathandra
Posted - 2006.07.01 01:27:00 -
[1040 ]
Wow.. 36 pages of pure "WAAAAAAAH PLX MAEK R STUF MOR UBER STRONG SO WE CAN PWN ALL OR WE GUNA CRYYYYYYYYYYYYY" Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance
Forsch
Posted - 2006.07.01 01:36:00 -
[1041 ]
Originally by: Cathandra Wow.. 36 pages of pure "WAAAAAAAH PLX MAEK R STUF MOR UBER STRONG SO WE CAN PWN ALL OR WE GUNA CRYYYYYYYYYYYYY" Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance Only thing I'd call is an english teacher for you.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Cathandra
Posted - 2006.07.01 01:37:00 -
[1042 ]
Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Cathandra Wow.. 36 pages of pure "WAAAAAAAH PLX MAEK R STUF MOR UBER STRONG SO WE CAN PWN ALL OR WE GUNA CRYYYYYYYYYYYYY" Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance Only thing I'd call is an english teacher for you. It's called irony.
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.07.01 02:16:00 -
[1043 ]
Edited by: Devoras2 on 01/07/2006 02:16:28 Ops..double post And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.07.01 02:16:00 -
[1044 ]
Originally by: Cathandra Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Cathandra Wow.. 36 pages of pure "WAAAAAAAH PLX MAEK R STUF MOR UBER STRONG SO WE CAN PWN ALL OR WE GUNA CRYYYYYYYYYYYYY" Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance Only thing I'd call is an english teacher for you. It's called irony. I call it trolling And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Cathandra
Posted - 2006.07.01 02:27:00 -
[1045 ]
Originally by: Devoras2 Originally by: Cathandra Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Cathandra Wow.. 36 pages of pure "WAAAAAAAH PLX MAEK R STUF MOR UBER STRONG SO WE CAN PWN ALL OR WE GUNA CRYYYYYYYYYYYYY" Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance Only thing I'd call is an english teacher for you. It's called irony. I call it trolling Nah, just pointing out that this whole thread is pretty much nothing but Amarrians crying and begging for their lasers to be even stronger then they already are without even having to use up ammo or anything.
Stephar
Posted - 2006.07.01 02:35:00 -
[1046 ]
I'd like to see some sort of acknowledgement as well. I've been stalling on my gunnery training as I work on other areas, mainly because I'm unsure whether or not to go for a Raven over an Apoc for level 4's. It's really a pain for Amarr to fly Caldari because you have to train for shield tanking rather than armor tanking... I feel for the folks who have already invested millions of SP's into Amarr-specific areas. If Amarr isn't going to get buffed, I'll just go ahead and work towards a Raven.
Chief Seattle
Posted - 2006.07.01 04:29:00 -
[1047 ]
Originally by: Malken with the Mega now able to wtfpwn at close range and long range Minmatar use no cap on their guns and.... yeah need alittle more loving though. and the Domi is the wtfpwn iwin button at close range Caldari still got the wtfpwn recon jammer, Raven wtfpwning at long range and close range Amarr got the geddon that does good dmg with no tank on and the apoc that does more dmg with projectiles then megapulses can we get our explosive crystals soon? if you get explosive crystals everything gets owned 1. Minmatar dont neep cap. sure but if you would please look at the ****ty damage we do with our ammo.... 2. Domi is the wtf pwn. true but you get a wtfpwn: pulses with the right crystals are amazing. 3. Raven and the jamming. well no one else got a super jammer so i think the caldari deserve it, and for the raven, its just a BS thats easy to setup for a ton of damage and long ranges, then gets owned by T2 large guns so STFU and sit down you amarr dont have to reload nearly as much, and yur crystals are nicely balanced to pwn at many ranges.
Cathandra
Posted - 2006.07.01 04:33:00 -
[1048 ]
Edited by: Cathandra on 01/07/2006 04:35:01 Originally by: Chief Seattle Originally by: Malken with the Mega now able to wtfpwn at close range and long range Minmatar use no cap on their guns and.... yeah need alittle more loving though. and the Domi is the wtfpwn iwin button at close range Caldari still got the wtfpwn recon jammer, Raven wtfpwning at long range and close range Amarr got the geddon that does good dmg with no tank on and the apoc that does more dmg with projectiles then megapulses can we get our explosive crystals soon? if you get explosive crystals everything gets owned 1. Minmatar dont neep cap. sure but if you would please look at the ****ty damage we do with our ammo.... 2. Domi is the wtf pwn. true but you get a wtfpwn: pulses with the right crystals are amazing. 3. Raven and the jamming. well no one else got a super jammer so i think the caldari deserve it, and for the raven, its just a BS thats easy to setup for a ton of damage and long ranges, then gets owned by T2 large guns so STFU and sit down you amarr dont have to reload nearly as much, and yur crystals are nicely balanced to pwn at many ranges. QTF.. The grass is always greener on the other side of the hill. And also, Minmatar get less capacitor to make up for normal ammo that doesn't use cap. Amarr get lots more capacitor to make up for their laser weapons which don't even need ammo. The lasers do more damage then the bullets already, but normal bullet weapons can be used by the Amarr ships, resulting in much higher capacitor without even using it, which results in wtfpwn. And yet the Amarr still flame everyone who suggests that they need not complain. *Sigh* BTW I'm not fond of either of these races' ships or weapons, so you can be assured that I'm not being bias..
Stephar
Posted - 2006.07.01 06:13:00 -
[1049 ]
Originally by: Cathandra The grass is always greener on the other side of the hill. And also, Minmatar get less capacitor to make up for normal ammo that doesn't use cap. Amarr get lots more capacitor to make up for their laser weapons which don't even need ammo. The lasers do more damage then the bullets already, but normal bullet weapons can be used by the Amarr ships, resulting in much higher capacitor without even using it, which results in wtfpwn. And yet the Amarr still flame everyone who suggests that they need not complain. *Sigh* BTW I'm not fond of either of these races' ships or weapons, so you can be assured that I'm not being bias.. How much fighting have you done against guristas or angels using lasers? Yeah, Amarr can equip projectiles... but does that sound like balance when one of the bonuses on nearly all Amarr ships is a cap reduction on lasers? It's really not about which "grass is greener." The problem is Amarr have 2 kinds of grass (EM and thermal) while the other races have 4.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.01 06:44:00 -
[1050 ]
Tux will not respond here..I wouldn't in his place, no matter what my opinion to this topic would be. We have a rather ..er.. "diverse" mix of opinions here, any response would have about the same effect as lighting a match in a fireworks factory. Also, why do clueless people keep using "OMG, lasers do not use ammo!!" as if it would be a real advantage? Fristly, if the price for ammo would be a major factor for balancing than missles would be way better than any other weapons. And, secondly, this "price advantage" for amarr becomes the total opposite for t2 ammos - a BS pilot has to carry about 70 mil in crystals for a fleetbattle. And, as a sidenode, anyone who says "amarr dont have to reload nearly as much" has obviously never ever flown an amarr ship Amarr have to switch ammos rather often because each crystal has a rather narrow area where it is effective since lasers have a small falloff compared to their optimal. And no, it is not instant. Try switching crystals for 6-8 lasers "at once".
Cathandra
Posted - 2006.07.01 06:56:00 -
[1051 ]
Originally by: Aramendel "OMG, lasers do not use ammo!!" as if it would be a real advantage? Not money, space. You can put that space to good use when you don't need ammo. Cap boosters for example. Besides, Amarr isn't meant to do more damage then anyone else.. it has more cap then anyone else and it's the best at tanking.. if you want the best DPS and you picked Amarr, you picked the wrong race. Just because it's not the best at EVERYONE doesn't mean it needs buffed...
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.07.01 07:29:00 -
[1052 ]
Originally by: Cathandra Originally by: Aramendel "OMG, lasers do not use ammo!!" as if it would be a real advantage? Not money, space. You can put that space to good use when you don't need ammo. Cap boosters for example. Besides, Amarr isn't meant to do more damage then anyone else.. it has more cap then anyone else and it's the best at tanking.. if you want the best DPS and you picked Amarr, you picked the wrong race. Just because it's not the best at EVERYONE doesn't mean it needs buffed... Pls revise that cap charge now have been halved by volume, and so, all battleship will be able to carry enough cap charge for a couple battle together along with their ammo. The advantage of having higher cargo capacity no longer considerable. The amount of extra capacitor that the Apoc having now dose truly reflect it ability any more due to exactly the same reasons: every body now using cap injectors whenever they want to and, therefore, what used to be the great capacitor advantage of Amarr is no longer in the place that it was before. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Cathandra
Posted - 2006.07.01 08:29:00 -
[1053 ]
Originally by: MacQueen Originally by: Cathandra Originally by: Aramendel "OMG, lasers do not use ammo!!" as if it would be a real advantage? Not money, space. You can put that space to good use when you don't need ammo. Cap boosters for example. Besides, Amarr isn't meant to do more damage then anyone else.. it has more cap then anyone else and it's the best at tanking.. if you want the best DPS and you picked Amarr, you picked the wrong race. Just because it's not the best at EVERYONE doesn't mean it needs buffed... Pls revise that cap charge now have been halved by volume, and so, all battleship will be able to carry enough cap charge for a couple battle together along with their ammo. The advantage of having higher cargo capacity no longer considerable. The amount of extra capacitor that the Apoc having now dose truly reflect it ability any more due to exactly the same reasons: every body now using cap injectors whenever they want to and, therefore, what used to be the great capacitor advantage of Amarr is no longer in the place that it was before. There is other stuff that needs cargo space to.. like loot.. and scan probes.. and you don't have to get more cap charges as often if you can carry more of them at once.. and you never have to pick up more ammo.. Oh and lasers kill shields really fast!
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.07.01 11:37:00 -
[1054 ]
Originally by: Cathandra Originally by: MacQueen Originally by: Cathandra Originally by: Aramendel "OMG, lasers do not use ammo!!" as if it would be a real advantage? Not money, space. You can put that space to good use when you don't need ammo. Cap boosters for example. Besides, Amarr isn't meant to do more damage then anyone else.. it has more cap then anyone else and it's the best at tanking.. if you want the best DPS and you picked Amarr, you picked the wrong race. Just because it's not the best at EVERYONE doesn't mean it needs buffed... Pls revise that cap charge now have been halved by volume, and so, all battleship will be able to carry enough cap charge for a couple battle together along with their ammo. The advantage of having higher cargo capacity no longer considerable. The amount of extra capacitor that the Apoc having now dose truly reflect it ability any more due to exactly the same reasons: every body now using cap injectors whenever they want to and, therefore, what used to be the great capacitor advantage of Amarr is no longer in the place that it was before. There is other stuff that needs cargo space to.. like loot.. and scan probes.. and you don't have to get more cap charges as often if you can carry more of them at once.. and you never have to pick up more ammo.. Oh and lasers kill shields really fast! everyone that have spec in amarr .... dont flame this guy, just point and laugh as for cargospace, i would rather have less cargospace and more armor :P
Heiken Wimast
Posted - 2006.07.01 11:44:00 -
[1055 ]
When you s SU ?
madaluap
Posted - 2006.07.01 11:52:00 -
[1056 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 01/07/2006 11:52:37 LoL now this thread is going nowhere, you can expect a lock soon So for your own good, remove the image please and can some isd guy clean this thread. _________________________________________________
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.01 12:37:00 -
[1057 ]
Originally by: Cathandra Wow.. 36 pages of pure "WAAAAAAAH PLX MAEK R STUF MOR UBER STRONG SO WE CAN PWN ALL OR WE GUNA CRYYYYYYYYYYYYY" Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance Please leave.
Mander Tens
Posted - 2006.07.01 13:55:00 -
[1058 ]
This has been said a few times in this thread, but I will repeat it because people still seem to be mistaken about it: Amarr are not the best tankers (they do have some ships with good tanks - Sacrilege, Maller, Prophecy). They would be if they could fit tanks on their ships, but on some they simply cannot. Take the Armageddon - it cannot fit a full rack of tachyons and still fit anything resembling a tank. Compare that to the Megathron - it can fit a full rack of its strongest T2 large guns, and simultaneously fit a very strong tank. Which race's BS is the better tanker?
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.01 13:56:00 -
[1059 ]
For the love of god, tachyons are long range guns. You're not supposed to be able to fit beams with huge tanks, much like you can't do with artillery. Compare pulses to blasters and autocannons please.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.01 14:33:00 -
[1060 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Compare pulses to blasters and autocannons please. To be the devils advocate here I have to say that everytime someone mentiones the damage output of other races theres always some smart type that posts a graph of tach geddon vs other non Amarr ships and say 'look here you win amarr is the uber'
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.01 14:39:00 -
[1061 ]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: Sarmaul Compare pulses to blasters and autocannons please. To be the devils advocate here I have to say that everytime someone mentiones the damage output of other races theres always some smart type that posts a graph of tach geddon vs other non Amarr ships and say 'look here you win amarr is the uber' That's because the tach-geddon, a long-range setup, kicks out more damage than most close-range setups (autopest and siege-raven sping to mind). The fact that people want long-range range, close-range damage and a full tank shows you how little grasp they have of game mechanics and balance.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
DarkElf
Posted - 2006.07.01 14:43:00 -
[1062 ]
Originally by: Cathandra Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Cathandra Wow.. 36 pages of pure "WAAAAAAAH PLX MAEK R STUF MOR UBER STRONG SO WE CAN PWN ALL OR WE GUNA CRYYYYYYYYYYYYY" Somebody call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance Only thing I'd call is an english teacher for you. It's called irony. Hopefully that English teacher can also tech him the meaning of the word irony. DE
Xendie
Posted - 2006.07.01 16:29:00 -
[1063 ]
Edited by: Xendie on 01/07/2006 16:29:28 Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: Sarmaul Compare pulses to blasters and autocannons please. To be the devils advocate here I have to say that everytime someone mentiones the damage output of other races theres always some smart type that posts a graph of tach geddon vs other non Amarr ships and say 'look here you win amarr is the uber' That's because the tach-geddon, a long-range setup, kicks out more damage than most close-range setups (autopest and siege-raven sping to mind). The fact that people want long-range range, close-range damage and a full tank shows you how little grasp they have of game mechanics and balance. once again you seem to have missed reading and understood this thread. a apoc with 8*800mm autocannons and 2 dmg mods still does more dmg and does more dmg types and tanks better then a megapulse apoc with equal setup - the dmg mods as there has to be 2 fitting mods instead to fit megapulses over 800's and it is forced to carry 70mill in crystals to do less dmg and tank less then a 800mm AC apoc. how is that right or even balanced, the apoc has nothing speaking for itself, it cant do enough dmg, it cant tank enough, not enough mids to do lots of EW. so what is it good for? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Fairin
Posted - 2006.07.01 16:40:00 -
[1064 ]
This thread is depressing. ---
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.01 17:01:00 -
[1065 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 01/07/2006 17:04:55 Originally by: Xendie once again you seem to have missed reading and understood this thread. a apoc with 8*800mm autocannons and 2 dmg mods still does more dmg and does more dmg types and tanks better then a megapulse apoc with equal setup - the dmg mods as there has to be 2 fitting mods instead to fit megapulses over 800's and it is forced to carry 70mill in crystals to do less dmg and tank less then a 800mm AC apoc. A apoc with only 1 RCU2 can fit a full rack of t2 megapulse and has with adv. weapon up. 4 still almost 8k grid free. If it is using only a single LAR2 it won't need a RCU at all for MPs. The 2 RCU2 fitting requirement is for tachyons, not megapulses.
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.07.01 17:17:00 -
[1066 ]
Apoc eill do more damage even with hybrid turrets, and tank will be better anyway. As amarr, we are the only that can USE lasers. So, gallente are drone and hybrid masters caldari are shield, missile and EW masters minmatars are speed and projectile masters Amarr are lasers master and THE ONLY one that can fit lasers. Even megathron will have a better tank with projectile. So, we must talk about lasers. Are lasers worth?
Nifel
Posted - 2006.07.01 17:32:00 -
[1067 ]
Edited by: Nifel on 01/07/2006 17:32:57 Originally by: Xendie once again you seem to have missed reading and understood this thread. a apoc with 8*800mm autocannons and 2 dmg mods still does more dmg and does more dmg types and tanks better then a megapulse apoc with equal setup - the dmg mods as there has to be 2 fitting mods instead to fit megapulses over 800's and it is forced to carry 70mill in crystals to do less dmg and tank less then a 800mm AC apoc. how is that right or even balanced, the apoc has nothing speaking for itself, it cant do enough dmg, it cant tank enough, not enough mids to do lots of EW. so what is it good for? Base damage with max skills and no fittings for 800mm AC T2: 0.901097 damage modifer per second Base damage with max skills and no fittings for MPII: 1.0033312 Take into account that you fight in falloff with acs most of the time, while using a really slow boat and lasers have higher damage + way better optimal which suits the amarr boats, and I have absolutely no clue what you're on about. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.01 18:14:00 -
[1068 ]
Originally by: Xendie Edited by: Xendie on 01/07/2006 16:29:28 Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: Sarmaul Compare pulses to blasters and autocannons please. To be the devils advocate here I have to say that everytime someone mentiones the damage output of other races theres always some smart type that posts a graph of tach geddon vs other non Amarr ships and say 'look here you win amarr is the uber' That's because the tach-geddon, a long-range setup, kicks out more damage than most close-range setups (autopest and siege-raven sping to mind). The fact that people want long-range range, close-range damage and a full tank shows you how little grasp they have of game mechanics and balance. once again you seem to have missed reading and understood this thread. Seriosuly, go away. I was replying to a particular query about why people post the damage output of a tachgeddon alongside close-range setups. It had nothing to do with the rest of the "boost amarr" statements in this thread. He said people post tachgeddons in damage graphs, I told him why. That's it. End of story. Got it?TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Ather Ialeas
Posted - 2006.07.01 18:48:00 -
[1069 ]
Originally by: Nifel Base damage with max skills and no fittings for 800mm AC T2: 0.901097 damage modifer per second Base damage with max skills and no fittings for MPII: 1.0033312 Take into account that you fight in falloff with acs most of the time, while using a really slow boat and lasers have higher damage + way better optimal which suits the amarr boats, and I have absolutely no clue what you're on about. I'm just helping you to prove your point here since I don't believe that the MAIN problem with Amarr are related to the bs sized ships and equipment. 800mm AC II: Unresisted Barrage L: 20*0.901097 + 24*0.901097 = 39.648268 damage per shot per second Unresisted Hail L: 12*0.901097 + 48*0.901097 = 54.065820 damage per shot per second Standard resisted Barrage L to shield: (20*0.901097*0.6) + (24*0.901097*0.4) = 19.4636952 damage per shot per second Standard resisted Barrage L to armor: (20*0.901097*0.9) + (24*0.901097*0.65) = 30.2768592 damage per shot per second Standard resisted Hail L to shield: (12*0.901097*0.6) + (48*0.901097*0.4) = 23.7889608 damage per shot per second Standard resisted Hail L to armor: (12*0.901097*0.9) + (48*0.901097*0.65) = 37.846074 damage per shot per second Mega Pulse II: Unresisted Scorch L: 36*1.0033312 + 8*1.0033312 = 44.1465728 damage per shot per second Unresisted Conflagration L: 32*1.0033312 + 28*1.0033312 = 60.1998720 damage per shot per second Standard resisted Scorch L to shield: (36*1.0033312*1.0) + (8*1.0033312*0.8) = 42.54124288 damage per shot per second Standard resisted Scorch L to armor: (36*1.0033312*0.4) + (8*1.0033312*0.65) = 19.66529152 damage per shot per second Standard resisted Conflagration L to shield: (32*1.0033312*1.0) + (28*1.0033312*0.8) = 54.58121728 damage per shot per second Standard resisted Conflagration L to armor: (32*1.0033312*0.4) + (28*1.0033312*0.65) = 31.1032672 damage per shot per second So the damage order is simple: Best ammo type for taking shields down is Conflagration > Scorch > Hail > Barrage Best ammo type for taking armor down is Hail > Conflagration > Barrage > Scorch Nothing new here tbh. I guess if you really want to argue this you should go thru the ship fits sticky thread and do a nice cutout of common tanking types (shield or armor) and what the most common resists for PvP really are and how they affect the damage output of the several examples above. Note: Standard resists I refer to are the ones that QuickFit uses which are for shield 0% EM, 60% exp, 40% kin and 20% therm and for armor 60% EM, 10% exp, 25% kin and 35% thermal. This of course differs from what people generally have as tank since for example Armageddon with my armor compensation skills (lvl3:s and lvl4:s) and 3 EANMII gives out 78.59% EM, 58.47% exp, 59.86% kin and 65.21% thermal making the actual damages the following: Whiney Amarr resisted Barrage L to armor: (20*0.901097*0.4014) + (24*0.901097*0.4153) = 16.21542073 damage per shot per second Whiney Amarr resisted Hail L to armor: (12*0.901097*0.4014) + (48*0.901097*0.4153) = 22.30323207 damage per shot per second Whiney Amarr resisted Scorch L to armor: (36*1.0033312*0.2141) + (8*1.0033312*0.3479) = 10.52574695 damage per shot per second Whiney Amarr resisted Conflagration L to armor: (32*1.0033312*0.2141) + (28*1.0033312*0.3479) = 16.6476726 damage per shot per second So now the damage order is Hail > Conflagration > Barrage > Scorch which is of course exactly the same as it was before even further proving Nifel's point. Please, forget the battleships for at least for a while. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Hakuin
Posted - 2006.07.01 18:57:00 -
[1070 ]
Small lasers sucks. Stop ignoring that. ________In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few.
Lisento Slaven
Posted - 2006.07.01 20:48:00 -
[1071 ]
Small Lasers do suck. I've begun fitting artillery and autocannons to my frigs since most of them only get a cap usage bonus to lasers. Where as the lasers take nearly twice the CPU/Grid of autocannons to fit. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Xendie
Posted - 2006.07.01 22:00:00 -
[1072 ]
Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 01/07/2006 17:32:57 Originally by: Xendie once again you seem to have missed reading and understood this thread. a apoc with 8*800mm autocannons and 2 dmg mods still does more dmg and does more dmg types and tanks better then a megapulse apoc with equal setup - the dmg mods as there has to be 2 fitting mods instead to fit megapulses over 800's and it is forced to carry 70mill in crystals to do less dmg and tank less then a 800mm AC apoc. how is that right or even balanced, the apoc has nothing speaking for itself, it cant do enough dmg, it cant tank enough, not enough mids to do lots of EW. so what is it good for? Base damage with max skills and no fittings for 800mm AC T2: 0.901097 damage modifer per second Base damage with max skills and no fittings for MPII: 1.0033312 Take into account that you fight in falloff with acs most of the time, while using a really slow boat and lasers have higher damage + way better optimal which suits the amarr boats, and I have absolutely no clue what you're on about. did you take into account the 2 dmg mods you can fit on the AC-Apoc that you cant fit on the megapulse-Apoc? Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Nifel
Posted - 2006.07.01 22:14:00 -
[1073 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 01/07/2006 17:32:57 Originally by: Xendie once again you seem to have missed reading and understood this thread. a apoc with 8*800mm autocannons and 2 dmg mods still does more dmg and does more dmg types and tanks better then a megapulse apoc with equal setup - the dmg mods as there has to be 2 fitting mods instead to fit megapulses over 800's and it is forced to carry 70mill in crystals to do less dmg and tank less then a 800mm AC apoc. how is that right or even balanced, the apoc has nothing speaking for itself, it cant do enough dmg, it cant tank enough, not enough mids to do lots of EW. so what is it good for? Base damage with max skills and no fittings for 800mm AC T2: 0.901097 damage modifer per second Base damage with max skills and no fittings for MPII: 1.0033312 Take into account that you fight in falloff with acs most of the time, while using a really slow boat and lasers have higher damage + way better optimal which suits the amarr boats, and I have absolutely no clue what you're on about. did you take into account the 2 dmg mods you can fit on the AC-Apoc that you cant fit on the megapulse-Apoc? No since you said equal fittings. I would however like to point out that I then don't understand why you're whining about that since it gives amarr ships the option of being versatile. Go full gank with lasers or go full tank with projectiles/missiles. And I'm far too tired of this topic to go do setups. Why don't you post the setups you had in mind when you wrote about this great injustice? "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.01 22:23:00 -
[1074 ]
Originally by: Nifel Go full gank with lasers or go full tank with projectiles/missiles. After all these posts, is it still possible?
Nifel
Posted - 2006.07.01 22:55:00 -
[1075 ]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: Nifel Go full gank with lasers or go full tank with projectiles/missiles. After all these posts, is it still possible? Get someone to play with you? I honestly don't understand why so many people are focused on how much amarr sucks as solo (which isn't 100% true either). The geddon is an ace ship to have in a small group roaming around. The maller makes an excellent cheap heavy tackler that can take an insane amount of beatings etc not to mention the ships amarr do have that have no problem whatsoever going around solo. People in this thread stares themselves blind on DPS, resistances (and in the case of EANM2 they do have a point), medslots etc and completely forget to focus on Amarr's strong sides. A final point to consider: When I started playing Minmatar was considered the worst race to train for (I'm maxed minnie specced in case you didn't figure that out ;)). Now, 1 and a half year later the public opinion has swung the other way proclaiming minmatar uberness. Flavour of the month sucks really bad and whoever got the bright idea of FOTM whining needs to die. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Xendie
Posted - 2006.07.02 01:20:00 -
[1076 ]
Originally by: Nifel Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 01/07/2006 17:32:57 Originally by: Xendie once again you seem to have missed reading and understood this thread. a apoc with 8*800mm autocannons and 2 dmg mods still does more dmg and does more dmg types and tanks better then a megapulse apoc with equal setup - the dmg mods as there has to be 2 fitting mods instead to fit megapulses over 800's and it is forced to carry 70mill in crystals to do less dmg and tank less then a 800mm AC apoc. how is that right or even balanced, the apoc has nothing speaking for itself, it cant do enough dmg, it cant tank enough, not enough mids to do lots of EW. so what is it good for? Base damage with max skills and no fittings for 800mm AC T2: 0.901097 damage modifer per second Base damage with max skills and no fittings for MPII: 1.0033312 Take into account that you fight in falloff with acs most of the time, while using a really slow boat and lasers have higher damage + way better optimal which suits the amarr boats, and I have absolutely no clue what you're on about. did you take into account the 2 dmg mods you can fit on the AC-Apoc that you cant fit on the megapulse-Apoc? No since you said equal fittings. I would however like to point out that I then don't understand why you're whining about that since it gives amarr ships the option of being versatile. Go full gank with lasers or go full tank with projectiles/missiles. And I'm far too tired of this topic to go do setups. Why don't you post the setups you had in mind when you wrote about this great injustice? with equal fittings there is room for 2 dmg mods on the AC apoc where the pulse apoc needs 2 engineering mods instead, hence why it does more dmg. but as i guessed you didnt want to incorporate that in your nifty calculation as it would be a totally another set of numbers. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Nifel
Posted - 2006.07.02 08:59:00 -
[1077 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Nifel No since you said equal fittings . I would however like to point out that I then don't understand why you're whining about that since it gives amarr ships the option of being versatile. Go full gank with lasers or go full tank with projectiles/missiles. And I'm far too tired of this topic to go do setups. Why don't you post the setups you had in mind when you wrote about this great injustice? with equal fittings there is room for 2 dmg mods on the AC apoc where the pulse apoc needs 2 engineering mods instead, hence why it does more dmg. but as i guessed you didnt want to incorporate that in your nifty calculation as it would be a totally another set of numbers. There... I was nice enough to fatten the parts where I explained why I didn't. Don't take it out on me when what you write misleads other people. And it's not me that should post setups. It's you that wants to boost amarr, so it's you that needs to do that. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Xendie
Posted - 2006.07.02 10:42:00 -
[1078 ]
Originally by: Nifel Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Nifel No since you said equal fittings . I would however like to point out that I then don't understand why you're whining about that since it gives amarr ships the option of being versatile. Go full gank with lasers or go full tank with projectiles/missiles. And I'm far too tired of this topic to go do setups. Why don't you post the setups you had in mind when you wrote about this great injustice? with equal fittings there is room for 2 dmg mods on the AC apoc where the pulse apoc needs 2 engineering mods instead, hence why it does more dmg. but as i guessed you didnt want to incorporate that in your nifty calculation as it would be a totally another set of numbers. There... I was nice enough to fatten the parts where I explained why I didn't. Don't take it out on me when what you write misleads other people. And it's not me that should post setups. It's you that wants to boost amarr, so it's you that needs to do that. and you seem to fail the obvious advantages of using AC on the apoc. as in 2 lowslots less used for engineering mods that will be used for damage mods instead wich makes the dmg output higher with similar fittings on the rest of the ship, dual rep, EAMN2 tank, Cap injector, web, scram. was that part so hard to understand or did you only want to try and talk down the fact that it actually does more dmg and can do more dmg types in the process?. seems to me that you are only posting here and diluting the thread with your nerf amarr sentiments. your calculation didnt reflect the actual AC apoc so it was wrong. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:01:00 -
[1079 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 02/07/2006 11:03:59 Originally by: Xendie with equal fittings there is room for 2 dmg mods on the AC apoc where the pulse apoc needs 2 engineering mods instead, hence why it does more dmg. To repeat myself:You do not need 2 engineering mods on the apoc for pulses. You need 1 RCU2. And *only* if you want to use a dual LAR2 setup. Seriously, Xendie, actually try out a setup before you are posting crap.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:21:00 -
[1080 ]
Nifel I wouldn't bother mate, the majority of this thread has been about misleading people.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:23:00 -
[1081 ]
37 pages. Maybe you should give this a rest, guys. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:25:00 -
[1082 ]
Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 01/07/2006 17:32:57 Base damage with max skills and no fittings for 800mm AC T2: 0.901097 damage modifer per second Base damage with max skills and no fittings for MPII: 1.0033312 Take into account that you fight in falloff with acs most of the time, while using a really slow boat and lasers have higher damage + way better optimal which suits the amarr boats, and I have absolutely no clue what you're on about. do those factor in ship bonuses ? xendie dunno what you are on about but u are doing amarr no favours :P all that needs to be changed is *** EAMNs need EM resist removed/reduced, likewise for invul and explosive*** APOC needs cap bonus changed to resist bonus*** retri needs mid slot and minus useless hi slot*** t2 crystals that have less shots but are eaiser to make (20 mil in crystals is more reasonable than 60)*** OMEN/ZEALOT need 5th turret slot (this will bring both ships max DPS on par with other hacs/t1 cruisers max DPS)*** lazer cap bonus needs to be changed from 10% per lvl to 12.5% per lvl*** khanid ships need rework ... see sarmauls thread :) do the minny/gallante whiners have any problems ? or are these changes too much to ask ?
Xendie
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:27:00 -
[1083 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 02/07/2006 11:03:59 Originally by: Xendie with equal fittings there is room for 2 dmg mods on the AC apoc where the pulse apoc needs 2 engineering mods instead, hence why it does more dmg. To repeat myself:You do not need 2 engineering mods on the apoc for pulses. You need 1 RCU2. And *only* if you want to use a dual LAR2 setup. Seriously, Xendie, actually try out a setup before you are posting crap. i dunno about you but i need 2 engineering mods to fit 8*megapulse2 and a dual rep tank with a cap injector, not needed with 8*800mm ACs. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Xendie
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:29:00 -
[1084 ]
Originally by: BirdBleed Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 01/07/2006 17:32:57 Base damage with max skills and no fittings for 800mm AC T2: 0.901097 damage modifer per second Base damage with max skills and no fittings for MPII: 1.0033312 Take into account that you fight in falloff with acs most of the time, while using a really slow boat and lasers have higher damage + way better optimal which suits the amarr boats, and I have absolutely no clue what you're on about. do those factor in ship bonuses ? xendie dunno what you are on about but u are doing amarr no favours :P all that needs to be changed is *** EAMNs need EM resist removed/reduced, likewise for invul and explosive*** APOC needs cap bonus changed to resist bonus*** retri needs mid slot and minus useless hi slot*** t2 crystals that have less shots but are eaiser to make (20 mil in crystals is more reasonable than 60)*** OMEN/ZEALOT need 5th turret slot (this will bring both ships max DPS on par with other hacs/t1 cruisers max DPS)*** lazer cap bonus needs to be changed from 10% per lvl to 12.5% per lvl*** khanid ships need rework ... see sarmauls thread :) do the minny/gallante whiners have any problems ? or are these changes too much to ask ? to start with you are quoting a calculation that isnt calculated in the right perspective, its missing 2dmg mods for the AC's other then that i agree with the changes you listed. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:35:00 -
[1085 ]
Edited by: Mahavy Seth on 02/07/2006 11:37:03 Originally by: BirdBleed Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 01/07/2006 17:32:57 Base damage with max skills and no fittings for 800mm AC T2: 0.901097 damage modifer per second Base damage with max skills and no fittings for MPII: 1.0033312 Take into account that you fight in falloff with acs most of the time, while using a really slow boat and lasers have higher damage + way better optimal which suits the amarr boats, and I have absolutely no clue what you're on about. do those factor in ship bonuses ? xendie dunno what you are on about but u are doing amarr no favours :P all that needs to be changed is *** EAMNs need EM resist removed/reduced, likewise for invul and explosive*** APOC needs cap bonus changed to resist bonus*** retri needs mid slot and minus useless hi slot*** t2 crystals that have less shots but are eaiser to make (20 mil in crystals is more reasonable than 60)*** OMEN/ZEALOT need 5th turret slot (this will bring both ships max DPS on par with other hacs/t1 cruisers max DPS)*** lazer cap bonus needs to be changed from 10% per lvl to 12.5% per lvl*** khanid ships need rework ... see sarmauls thread :) do the minny/gallante whiners have any problems ? or are these changes too much to ask ? Too much. 12% Cap lvl is suffice to resolve ANY problem. Also, Apoc is good with the capacitor bonus. IF it need to be modified a little, change it in 6 or 7% cap per level. Anotehr thing: amarr is lower slot specilized ONLY and it must be for be very particular. Edited: remember that amarr ships have much more cap and a faster recharge rate than other race ships. With a 12% or 13% laser cap consumption, you ALSO "increse" the cap recharge rate, and also laser turrets will consume much less cap than hybrid (obliviously at lvl 5)
DanMck
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:38:00 -
[1086 ]
Originally by: BirdBleed Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 01/07/2006 17:32:57 Base damage with max skills and no fittings for 800mm AC T2: 0.901097 damage modifer per second Base damage with max skills and no fittings for MPII: 1.0033312 Take into account that you fight in falloff with acs most of the time, while using a really slow boat and lasers have higher damage + way better optimal which suits the amarr boats, and I have absolutely no clue what you're on about. do those factor in ship bonuses ? xendie dunno what you are on about but u are doing amarr no favours :P all that needs to be changed is *** EAMNs need EM resist removed/reduced, likewise for invul and explosive*** APOC needs cap bonus changed to resist bonus*** retri needs mid slot and minus useless hi slot*** t2 crystals that have less shots but are eaiser to make (20 mil in crystals is more reasonable than 60)*** OMEN/ZEALOT need 5th turret slot (this will bring both ships max DPS on par with other hacs/t1 cruisers max DPS)*** lazer cap bonus needs to be changed from 10% per lvl to 12.5% per lvl*** khanid ships need rework ... see sarmauls thread :) do the minny/gallante whiners have any problems ? or are these changes too much to ask ? /signed
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:43:00 -
[1087 ]
Originally by: BirdBleed 1. EAMNs need EM resist removed/reduced, likewise for invul and explosive 2. APOC needs cap bonus changed to resist bonus 3. retri needs mid slot and minus useless hi slot 4. t2 crystals that have less shots but are eaiser to make (20 mil in crystals is more reasonable than 60) 5. OMEN/ZEALOT need 5th turret slot (this will bring both ships max DPS on par with other hacs/t1 cruisers max DPS) 6. lazer cap bonus needs to be changed from 10% per lvl to 12.5% per lvl 7. khanid ships need rework ... see sarmauls thread :) 1. No, as it screws over T2 ships who use those to raise their resists equally after patching the holes 2. Yes 3. If the Retri is the one with the 1 mid and empty high, Yes 4. Yes 5. No for Omen (would inbalance things too much - give an extra 5m3 on the drone bay would balance it perfectly), Zealot yet 6. No, as lasers are not the most cap-intensive weapons system besides tachs. 7. Of course yesDPS Graph Thorax > All inside 10km, past that the other ships begin to out-damage it Rupture > All besides the rax inside 10km, past that damage is virtually the same but it can tank easier than the rax Omen (20m3) > Gets owned at close range, but out-damages everything from 9-23km. Caracal does less damage than them all but never has to worry about missing a shot. Also, it has no form of close-range weapons until assault missiles are in-game.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:43:00 -
[1088 ]
Originally by: Xendie i dunno about you but i need 2 engineering mods to fit 8*megapulse2 and a dual rep tank with a cap injector, not needed with 8*800mm ACs. Stop using power diags perhaps? MP2: 2750 PG. *8 -> 22000 grid. lvl4 AWU -> 20240 grid Apoc: 19500 grid. lvl5 eng -> 25300 grid. 1*RCU2: 29095 grid 8855 leftover grid. 2 LAR2 and 1 large cap booster need 6005 grid.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:45:00 -
[1089 ]
Originally by: Xendie i dunno about you but i need 2 engineering mods to fit 8*megapulse2 and a dual rep tank with a cap injector, not needed with 8*800mm ACs. You have proven time and time again you do not know how to either fit your ship properly and/or know the factors to take into account when discussing game balance (in this case, all fitting skills must be assumed to be at level 5). You need a single RCU (might be RCU II) and it leaves you enough room for a twin rep tank and cap booster. Ok?TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.02 11:59:00 -
[1090 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul ..in this case, all fitting skills must be assumed to be at level 5... Kinda disagree here, "at a reasonable lvl" is better there. Advanced weapon upgrade 5 falls kinda outside this. It's about as much a "luxurary" as an officer drop, your average player won't have it.
Andreask14
Posted - 2006.07.02 12:04:00 -
[1091 ]
I am just glad that sensible and smart people are sitting behind the controls of the Galaxy, making sure that every ship has its place. Once ECM is fixed finnally, and perhaps small lasers are made more viable, all will be even better than it is now. ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.02 12:21:00 -
[1092 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Sarmaul ..in this case, all fitting skills must be assumed to be at level 5... Kinda disagree here, "at a reasonable lvl" is better there. Advanced weapon upgrade 5 falls kinda outside this. It's about as much a "luxurary" as an officer drop, your average player won't have it. It doesn't matter. If you balance things "at a reasonable level" then when people go past that level it gets imbalanced. Everything in this game is balanced with maximum skills. Laser cap use is balanced with frig/cruiser/bs 5. Drone damage is balanced with drones 5, drone interfacing 5 and frig/cruiserbattleship 5. Moaning that your lasers use too much cap when there are skills left to be trained that will reduce the cap amount doesn't mean that all lasers use too much cap all the time, it just means that they use too much cap with your currently trained skills .TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.07.02 12:32:00 -
[1093 ]
Quote: ***EAMNs need EM resist removed/reduced, likewise for invul and explosive ***APOC needs cap bonus changed to resist bonus ***retri needs mid slot and minus useless hi slot ***t2 crystals that have less shots but are eaiser to make (20 mil in crystals is more reasonable than 60) ***OMEN/ZEALOT need 5th turret slot (this will bring both ships max DPS on par with other hacs/t1 cruisers max DPS) ***lazer cap bonus needs to be changed from 10% per lvl to 12.5% per lvl ***khanid ships need rework ... see sarmauls thread :) Dont forget silly powergrid requirements in cruiser sized beams and pulses, to lesser amount frig and battleship sized.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.02 12:55:00 -
[1094 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 02/07/2006 12:58:27 Originally by: Sarmaul It doesn't matter. If you balance things "at a reasonable level" then when people go past that level it gets imbalanced. Everything in this game is balanced with maximum skills. Laser cap use is balanced with frig/cruiser/bs 5. Drone damage is balanced with drones 5, drone interfacing 5 and frig/cruiserbattleship 5. Exept skills are not the only thing which effects your performance. It's skills + equipment. So why are we not using max skills + max equipment (corpum A, etc) if we want to compare something? Where is the difference between both? I do not see any, both is in the end dependent on time invested. It's perfectly naturally to use the "reasonable lvl" with equipment (tech 2 instead of officer), why not with skills as well? Quote: Moaning that your lasers use too much cap when there are skills left to be trained that will reduce the cap amount doesn't mean that all lasers use too much cap all the time, it just means that they use too much cap with your currently trained skills . *cough* grid *cough*
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.07.02 12:56:00 -
[1095 ]
Originally by: Yodohime Kibagami Quote: ***EAMNs need EM resist removed/reduced, likewise for invul and explosive ***APOC needs cap bonus changed to resist bonus ***retri needs mid slot and minus useless hi slot ***t2 crystals that have less shots but are eaiser to make (20 mil in crystals is more reasonable than 60) ***OMEN/ZEALOT need 5th turret slot (this will bring both ships max DPS on par with other hacs/t1 cruisers max DPS) ***lazer cap bonus needs to be changed from 10% per lvl to 12.5% per lvl ***khanid ships need rework ... see sarmauls thread :) Dont forget silly powergrid requirements in cruiser sized beams and pulses, to lesser amount frig and battleship sized. yer completely forgot about that, ive kinda given up flying amarr inties :D
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.07.02 14:43:00 -
[1096 ]
Now this begin to be sick...
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.02 15:01:00 -
[1097 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 02/07/2006 12:58:27 Originally by: Sarmaul It doesn't matter. If you balance things "at a reasonable level" then when people go past that level it gets imbalanced. Everything in this game is balanced with maximum skills. Laser cap use is balanced with frig/cruiser/bs 5. Drone damage is balanced with drones 5, drone interfacing 5 and frig/cruiserbattleship 5. Exept skills are not the only thing which effects your performance. It's skills + equipment. So why are we not using max skills + max equipment (corpum A, etc) if we want to compare something? Where is the difference between both? I do not see any, both is in the end dependent on time invested. It's perfectly naturally to use the "reasonable lvl" with equipment (tech 2 instead of officer), why not with skills as well? Because faction/officer equipment is the luxary, not skill points. T2 and under is balanced properly, where-as this goes out the window with faction gear. If you're going to allow skills "at a reasonable level" then I want the alpha strike on my artillery boosted as I only have minmatar BS 4 and large artilelry spec 1 (I have 5/4 btw, I'm using it as an example). See the problem? Quote: Moaning that your lasers use too much cap when there are skills left to be trained that will reduce the cap amount doesn't mean that all lasers use too much cap all the time, it just means that they use too much cap with your currently trained skills . *cough* grid *cough* I can pick out a good 20 instances of people wanting a cap reduction on their lasers.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Sniser
Posted - 2006.07.02 15:54:00 -
[1098 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul DPS Graph Thorax > All inside 10km, past that the other ships begin to out-damage it Rupture > All besides the rax inside 10km, past that damage is virtually the same but it can tank easier than the rax Omen (20m3) > Gets owned at close range, but out-damages everything from 9-23km. Caracal does less damage than them all but never has to worry about missing a shot. Also, it has no form of close-range weapons until assault missiles are in-game. i sorry Sarmaul but i dont see how omen own in your graph. Thorax still doing the same damage than omen at 9km. Even dont try fit a mwd in omen because you cant, thorax will come near you in seconds and you will go down quickly. Also rupture is more faster than you so you will be owned too
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.07.02 15:58:00 -
[1099 ]
Originally by: Sniser i sorry Sarmaul but i dont see how omen own in your graph. Thorax still doing the same damage than omen at 9km. Even dont try fit a mwd in omen because you cant, thorax will come near you in seconds and you will go down quickly. Also rupture is more faster than you so you will be owned too Balancing for roles != balancing for 1 vs 1. The Omen is lacking, but that's no reason to ask for it to outdamage everything under the reason it can't set the range in a 1 vs 1. NB.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.02 16:06:00 -
[1100 ]
Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Sarmaul DPS Graph Thorax > All inside 10km, past that the other ships begin to out-damage it Rupture > All besides the rax inside 10km, past that damage is virtually the same but it can tank easier than the rax Omen (20m3) > Gets owned at close range, but out-damages everything from 9-23km. Caracal does less damage than them all but never has to worry about missing a shot. Also, it has no form of close-range weapons until assault missiles are in-game. i sorry Sarmaul but i dont see how omen own in your graph. Thorax still doing the same damage than omen at 9km. Even dont try fit a mwd in omen because you cant, thorax will come near you in seconds and you will go down quickly. Also rupture is more faster than you so you will be owned too I hope you are looking at the dark red line, the one named "Omen (20m3)". I've included both the current Omen (light red) and one that has an extra 5m3 drone bay.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Altai Saker
Posted - 2006.07.02 16:40:00 -
[1101 ]
2006.07.02 16:29:43 combat Your Dual Light Beam Laser II perfectly strikes Naroa [3B-IX] *Capsule, wrecking for 39.1 damage.
Hakuin
Posted - 2006.07.02 17:05:00 -
[1102 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: BirdBleed 1. EAMNs need EM resist removed/reduced, likewise for invul and explosive 2. APOC needs cap bonus changed to resist bonus 3. retri needs mid slot and minus useless hi slot 4. t2 crystals that have less shots but are eaiser to make (20 mil in crystals is more reasonable than 60) 5. OMEN/ZEALOT need 5th turret slot (this will bring both ships max DPS on par with other hacs/t1 cruisers max DPS) 6. lazer cap bonus needs to be changed from 10% per lvl to 12.5% per lvl 7. khanid ships need rework ... see sarmauls thread :) 6. No, as lasers are not the most cap-intensive weapons system besides tachs. With maxed skills and ship bonus : Gatling Pulse Laser II: 0.683 (-0.021) Light Electron Blaster II: 0.704 Dual Light Pulse Laser II: 1.001 (-0.170) Light Ion Blaster II: 1.171 Medium Pulse Laser II: 1.665 (+0.148) Light Neutron Blaster II: 1.517 ________In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.02 17:08:00 -
[1103 ]
Originally by: Altai Saker 2006.07.02 16:29:43 combat Your Dual Light Beam Laser II perfectly strikes Naroa [3B-IX] *Capsule, wrecking for 39.1 damage. 'amazing' show us more
Hakuin
Posted - 2006.07.02 17:14:00 -
[1104 ]
Originally by: Altai Saker 2006.07.02 16:29:43 combat Your Dual Light Beam Laser II perfectly strikes Naroa [3B-IX] *Capsule, wrecking for 39.1 damage. With Glems? ________In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.02 17:24:00 -
[1105 ]
Originally by: Hakuin Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: BirdBleed 1. EAMNs need EM resist removed/reduced, likewise for invul and explosive 2. APOC needs cap bonus changed to resist bonus 3. retri needs mid slot and minus useless hi slot 4. t2 crystals that have less shots but are eaiser to make (20 mil in crystals is more reasonable than 60) 5. OMEN/ZEALOT need 5th turret slot (this will bring both ships max DPS on par with other hacs/t1 cruisers max DPS) 6. lazer cap bonus needs to be changed from 10% per lvl to 12.5% per lvl 7. khanid ships need rework ... see sarmauls thread :) 6. No, as lasers are not the most cap-intensive weapons system besides tachs. With maxed skills and ship bonus : Gatling Pulse Laser II: 0.683 (-0.021) Light Electron Blaster II: 0.704 Dual Light Pulse Laser II: 1.001 (-0.170) Light Ion Blaster II: 1.171 Medium Pulse Laser II: 1.665 (+0.148) Light Neutron Blaster II: 1.517 My apologies - I wasn't taking the 30% cap reduction blasters got recently.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Hakuin
Posted - 2006.07.02 18:03:00 -
[1106 ]
No problem...it's not you Sarmaul, Im just a little 'cos I waste skillpoints/time in training an useless weapon system like small lasers. I think it's normal. No one want that, waste skills, I mean. There aren't ANY reason acutally for training small laser/amarr inties, they DON'T sucks AT ALL, but they are pretty useless and limited. Caldari inties can choose dmg type and with missile/rockets they hit every time, Gallente do HUGE damage, Minmatar can choose dmg type, and Amarr...don't use ammo ________In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.02 18:14:00 -
[1107 ]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 02/07/2006 18:15:14 ups hit quote instead of editTEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.07.02 18:49:00 -
[1108 ]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 02/07/2006 18:49:36 Originally by: Hakuin No problem...it's not you Sarmaul, Im just a little 'cos I waste skillpoints/time in training an useless weapon system like small lasers. I think it's normal. No one want that, waste skills, I mean. There aren't ANY reason acutally for training small laser/amarr inties, they DON'T sucks AT ALL, but they are pretty useless and limited. Caldari inties can choose dmg type and with missile/rockets they hit every time, Gallente do HUGE damage, Minmatar can choose dmg type, and Amarr...don't use ammo I can fly amarr, gallente and minmatar interceptors with small t2 guns, spec skills at 3 (small lasers) or 4. The crusader is my favorite interceptor. It's small and fast, track well and does good damage at range. It's maybe not so competitive at close range but hard to beat at long range, except for a crow... but then again, it's not the crusader that's out of line here. NB.
Sniser
Posted - 2006.07.02 19:08:00 -
[1109 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Sarmaul DPS Graph Thorax > All inside 10km, past that the other ships begin to out-damage it Rupture > All besides the rax inside 10km, past that damage is virtually the same but it can tank easier than the rax Omen (20m3) > Gets owned at close range, but out-damages everything from 9-23km. Caracal does less damage than them all but never has to worry about missing a shot. Also, it has no form of close-range weapons until assault missiles are in-game. i sorry Sarmaul but i dont see how omen own in your graph. Thorax still doing the same damage than omen at 9km. Even dont try fit a mwd in omen because you cant, thorax will come near you in seconds and you will go down quickly. Also rupture is more faster than you so you will be owned too I hope you are looking at the dark red line, the one named "Omen (20m3)". I've included both the current Omen (light red) and one that has an extra 5m3 drone bay. yes im looking it and i say the same
Hakuin
Posted - 2006.07.02 19:30:00 -
[1110 ]
Naughty, the crusader is my favourite ship. 90% of EvE pvpers fly it 'cos it look cool. You can kill (using different setups) taranis, enyo, hawk (pre-patch, dunno now), clueless harpy pilots, clueless retribution pilots, vengeance. No chance vs minmatar afs/inties, ishkur kill you, plated rocket crow usually kill you. Nothing it's a rule tbh but this is the situation, basically. So if you go around in 0.0, solo, you cannot engage a lot of target because you are limited, stucked with EM/Thermal, you are outdamaged in short range fights, you cannot be Anti-AF 'cos you cannot choose damage type, without scrambler most of targets just warp off, laughting at you. I can talk for 1 year+ about props/cons of the crusader, but im so bored now, really, it need some help. This is one of the best quote ever about intys situation: Originally by: Montero in my opinions: stilly = best tackler ranis + claw = best dogfighters claw = best anti AF crow = intys on easy mode ofc im sure some will disagree. intys can be used to fill alot of roles, tackler, gank squads, anti-support, scouts, traveling, blockade running, looking cool. whatever really, be imaginative. ________In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few.
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.07.02 19:42:00 -
[1111 ]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 02/07/2006 19:42:43 Originally by: Hakuin You can kill (using different setups) taranis, enyo, hawk (pre-patch, dunno now), clueless harpy pilots, clueless retribution pilots, vengeance. No chance vs minmatar afs/inties, ishkur kill you, plated rocket crow usually kill you. Nothing it's a rule tbh but this is the situation, basically. While I agree with you about the limited role of the crusader, I'd like to point out that other interceptors also have their limitations. Whereas the claw is without contest better at close range, I prefer the crusader in the long range role because of the tracking and damage advantages (not only considering heavily em tanked armor). Artillery dps is awful and the claw bonus does not help it enough to make them really competitive. The other serious contenders are the crow and the taranis, and the later is suffering from being slow and heavy, which is a considerable issue very often. As for the crow, It has advantages but is hardly a reason on its own to boost the crusader. Anyway, how'd you boost it ? NB.
DanMck
Posted - 2006.07.03 15:31:00 -
[1112 ]
change all crystal option , 1 mid slot on my af help me please
Jacob Holland
Posted - 2006.07.03 16:14:00 -
[1113 ]
It's most likely already been said but the one thing that most says that Amarr ships need a buff is simply this: Why wouldn't an Apoc pilot load it with 1400 Artillery? The set up at present is to encourage Laser users to fly Amarr ships rather than to encourage Amarr pilots to use Lasers. I'm not sure that lasers need a buff to the degree some have suggested (though they are still underpowered (their "no ammo" is countered by the cost of each crystal and the cap cost of each shot for a start)) but I do think that the reduction in laser cap cost bonus on most Amarr ships (as it is mitigation of a huge shortfall) cannot be counted as a real bonus.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.03 16:32:00 -
[1114 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Because faction/officer equipment is the luxary, not skill points. T2 and under is balanced properly, where-as this goes out the window with faction gear... ...I can pick out a good 20 instances of people wanting a cap reduction on their lasers. Yes, but I wasn't. I was *specifically* commenting on advanced weapon upgrades for a reason. Controlled bursts 5 or bs 5 is perfectly reasonable. AWU 5 though...unless you are a 3 year old player chances are very good that you could invest these 1.25 mil SP for 2% less weapon grid need far better in other skills. This is what I meant with "luxuary". It is simply no skill you will train to 5 unless you absolutely have to or have maxxed everything else already. Faction gear is hideously expensive, so very few people use it in PvP. So the effect of it to the game (for PvP) is more or less neglectible. But the same applies for stuff like large weapon spec 5 or AWU 5. Even advanced gamers rarely have those, simply because the effect you get for the SP invested doas not make it effective to train these skills unless you literary have nothing else left.
Ithildin
Posted - 2006.07.03 16:34:00 -
[1115 ]
Originally by: Jacob Holland It's most likely already been said but the one thing that most says that Amarr ships need a buff is simply this: Why wouldn't an Apoc pilot load it with 1400 Artillery? Well... About +100% volley damage in exchange for about -25% damage per second (1400mm T2 vs Mega Beam T2 - same powergrid reqs) (Note, dps and volley damage aren't equally useful) As for the crystals, well, that discussion has been done to death. It's always come down to that lasers are only gonna cost more in ammo if you lose your ship a lot, and in that case you've got far worse troubles. Of course, T2 ammo has screwed everything over, hasn't it?New sig coming soonÖ By "soon" I do not necessarily mean "this year"
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.03 17:31:00 -
[1116 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Sarmaul Because faction/officer equipment is the luxary, not skill points. T2 and under is balanced properly, where-as this goes out the window with faction gear... ...I can pick out a good 20 instances of people wanting a cap reduction on their lasers. Yes, but I wasn't. I was *specifically* commenting on advanced weapon upgrades for a reason. Controlled bursts 5 or bs 5 is perfectly reasonable. AWU 5 though...unless you are a 3 year old player chances are very good that you could invest these 1.25 mil SP for 2% less weapon grid need far better in other skills. This is what I meant with "luxuary". It is simply no skill you will train to 5 unless you absolutely have to or have maxxed everything else already. Faction gear is hideously expensive, so very few people use it in PvP. So the effect of it to the game (for PvP) is more or less neglectible. But the same applies for stuff like large weapon spec 5 or AWU 5. Even advanced gamers rarely have those, simply because the effect you get for the SP invested doas not make it effective to train these skills unless you literary have nothing else left. I've been playing for 1 year 4 months and I'm 10 days away from AWU 5 :)TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.03 18:30:00 -
[1117 ]
Pff.. you. And there are people which PvP in Rattlesnakes. I still do not think that it's a common skill. I might be completely, utterly wrong, of cource, but oh well.
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.07.03 22:50:00 -
[1118 ]
Edited by: Mahavy Seth on 03/07/2006 22:54:51 Edited by: Mahavy Seth on 03/07/2006 22:53:26 Well... Aramendel is not totally wrong... There is only 2 things that can push me to train lvl 5 in a skill that is more than TTM x1: 1. I need it for train another skill. 2. I have nothing else to do... I have trouble in starting cruiser lvl 5, that even with uber attributes take to me 18 days! 23 days for get a 2% cap reduction... I think that I have some priority before that... Anyway you all are going out from the topic... here we are talking about the fact that .... WE NEED 12% CAP REDUCTION PER LEVEL!!!! NOT 10!!!
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.07.03 23:42:00 -
[1119 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 03/07/2006 23:45:20 This is part of a post I made in an "omggivemeagoodomensetupplz" thread yesterday. Thought we could use some fresh discussion fodder over here. To quickly sum up: Tanking ships like the maller need the grid to fit 2 reppers + a rack of weapons in order to be more viable alternatives to the rax/ruppie. 25% resists to armor just isn't enough. Alternatively, changing the tanking amarr bonus to +10% armor per level and 5% resists per level sounds about right as well. Here is my original rant. ____________________________________________________________________________________________FIRST - the Omen sucks. It truly, wholly, entirely sucks. As a DPS boat, with max skills it is only marginly more damage than the tanking boat the Maller. It lacks both the fittings (pg/cpu) to truly be able to fit it out well, and the slottage to do anything else besides shoot things with lasers. Ironically the "one trick dps" Omen doesn't put out any more DPS than the other racial cruisers, and they can do a WHOLE lot more besides dps. Oh yea, they can actually mount a tank as well. And before a ton a naysayers come prancing in with thier crap Omen setups, any setup with a small T2 repper needs to be chucked, and any setup the Omen can do another cruiser can do it, and can do it better. FFS even Tux has said that he didn't know what to do with the Omen, and that it's current incarnation is basically pointless when compared to the Maller.SECOND- The Maller pretty much sucks too. As I have crunched numbers, analyzed, and re-analyzed the cruiser data to such an extent that it would probably result in the termination of my employment if it was ever exposed, I can tell you with the utmost certainty that it blows proverbial chunks. Partly to do with em damage loading on crystals, partly to do with and extra high slot that it can't fit, but it's mainly one thing.In Eve, most of the time damage is completely better than tank. The hard data and circumstantial data from direct observation of common cruisers in pvp support this. Let's take a look at the DPS of the turret cruisers, max fittings, t2 equipment.Cruiser DPS of the Maller, Ruppie, and Rax with heaviest and medium short range weapons. Notice the rather large damage gap, even at mid range where Amarr have an advantage. In exchange for lesser damage the Maller needs to be able to tank better/more than the other 2 ships. To do this it is given a 25% increase to base resists.RESULTS- It's completely outclassed because it's tanking (25% better resists) is inferior to the other ships ability to output 2.5 times the damage of the Maller while supporting a variety of damage types.FITTING- When you fit all three ships they look balanced on paper fitting wise, all three have about the same fittings left over when fitting similar weapons (this is making a grand assumption that the 6th high slot on the Maller should be empty, but whatever). The problem is that for the Maller to compete tanking wise with the others greater damage output it needs to be able to fit 2 medium reps to compensate for it's lower damage output. It can't, ergo it can not compete and is not as useful. This corroborates with observed evidence that many fewer mallers are in use than other cruisers. The fact that it does limited damage types, and is more vulnerable to ew is just another nail in the Mallers coffin and adds insult to injury. The Arbitrator is the only Amarr cruiser worth it's salt. It can fit a tank, has flexible damage through drones, mids for ew and locking targets down, and does more dps than the Maller. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Kuolematon
Posted - 2006.07.04 06:50:00 -
[1120 ]
So when will poor Amarr get some love? Or BC's? I will soon have command ships lvl5 and would love to use 'em constantly. Unnerf Amarr! "Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must. "
Altai Saker
Posted - 2006.07.04 07:29:00 -
[1121 ]
Edited by: Altai Saker on 04/07/2006 07:33:10 Crusader is really a terrible inty, I like flying mine... but the damage at longrange is about 12 dps... Yes if you fly well and/or fly against noobs it can kill anything. So what? The taranis/crow is going to do it much quicker and much more effictively (and from longer range) with much less pilot skill involved. For shortrange... you are outclassed by far by the taranis and the claw... Don't believe me? 1v1 my taranis anytime. I guess I should start a boost the crusader thread, or rather, make small beams possible to fit. Also - the taranis isnt slow and heavy, train skills and add some cheapo implants... whats that 4.7kms with a 1mn II ? thought so.
Forsch
Posted - 2006.07.04 07:57:00 -
[1122 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Cruiser DPS of the Maller, Ruppie, and Rax with heaviest and medium short range weapons. So sad. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Sonorra Baki
Posted - 2006.07.04 08:46:00 -
[1123 ]
Edited by: Sonorra Baki on 04/07/2006 08:49:08 Originally by: Ather Ialeas So the damage order is simple: Best ammo type for taking shields down is Conflagration > Scorch > Hail > Barrage Best ammo type for taking armor down is Hail > Conflagration > Barrage > Scorch Whiney Amarr resisted Barrage L to armor: (20*0.901097*0.4014) + (24*0.901097*0.4153) = 16.21542073 damage per shot per second Whiney Amarr resisted Hail L to armor: (12*0.901097*0.4014) + (48*0.901097*0.4153) = 22.30323207 damage per shot per second Whiney Amarr resisted Scorch L to armor: (36*1.0033312*0.2141) + (8*1.0033312*0.3479) = 10.52574695 damage per shot per second Whiney Amarr resisted Conflagration L to armor: (32*1.0033312*0.2141) + (28*1.0033312*0.3479) = 16.6476726 damage per shot per second So now the damage order is Hail > Conflagration > Barrage > Scorch which is of course exactly the same as it was before even further proving Nifel's point. Please, forget the battleships for at least for a while. I snipped some parts to make it a shorter quote. You calculations here, while showing that lasers do good damage, needs to be coupled with all the other amarr stigmas. We might have higher damage output on paper, but remember what we are up against. Most other BS have slots for tackling and EW, while still fitting tanks that are on par with ours. Most other BS have ways of adjusting dmg types through drones or missiles. At the currents state of the game, In all skirmishes I can think of, taking amarr tier 1 against other tier 1's or tier 2 against 2's, we will get jammed or worn down.This may not be work safe -Capsicum
Buraken v2
Posted - 2006.07.04 09:51:00 -
[1124 ]
Edited by: Buraken v2 on 04/07/2006 09:51:39 lol @ everyone who show up with their graphs and clipboards in eve THEORY AND PRACTICE AINT THE SAME THING and thats how I can sum up this XX page long post Quote: Mail from: Houvire Takaerne 2006.06.06 19:25 Our research has been fruity. If you're interested, I believe I have found what might be a banana in the corner of my office draw.
Stephar
Posted - 2006.07.04 10:19:00 -
[1125 ]
Originally by: Buraken v2 Edited by: Buraken v2 on 04/07/2006 09:51:39 lol @ everyone who show up with their graphs and clipboards in eve THEORY AND PRACTICE AINT THE SAME THING and thats how I can sum up this XX page long post It's cool if you don't understand the graphs and empirical evidence, but don't laugh at the people that do.
Buraken v2
Posted - 2006.07.04 12:01:00 -
[1126 ]
Edited by: Buraken v2 on 04/07/2006 12:01:42 Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Buraken v2 Edited by: Buraken v2 on 04/07/2006 09:51:39 lol @ everyone who show up with their graphs and clipboards in eve THEORY AND PRACTICE AINT THE SAME THING and thats how I can sum up this XX page long post It's cool if you don't understand the graphs and empirical evidence, but don't laugh at the people that do. Who says I dont understand? I just know that I can kill all other ships in my Geddon/Apoc/Maller/Puni/etc yada yada while ppl for 38 pages or whatever say that Amarr sucks, obvisouly some people arent clever enough to use em correcly or something I dont know. I know that I manage with Amarr very well indeed =) so the prob isnt in the ship, its in the pilot <- bite the bullet f0lks. Edit: Ok not ALL ships =p but alot lets say Quote: Mail from: Houvire Takaerne 2006.06.06 19:25 Our research has been fruity. If you're interested, I believe I have found what might be a banana in the corner of my office draw.
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.07.04 13:15:00 -
[1127 ]
Well may be buraken is not all wrong... I mean... in a real situation tehre is many more factors than raw damage at 0 transversal vs unardened target... anyway we need 12% to cap reduction...
Stephar
Posted - 2006.07.04 13:16:00 -
[1128 ]
Originally by: Buraken v2 Who says I dont understand? I just know that I can kill all other ships in my Geddon/Apoc/Maller/Puni/etc yada yada while ppl for 38 pages or whatever say that Amarr sucks, obvisouly some people arent clever enough to use em correcly or something I dont know. I know that I manage with Amarr very well indeed =) so the prob isnt in the ship, its in the pilot <- bite the bullet f0lks. Edit: Ok not ALL ships =p but alot lets say This thread isn't about how "Amarr sucks." It's mainly addressing a couple of issues... such as how beam grid requirements are not in line with the other races (particularly at the frigate level) and how lasers are no longer balanced versus other weapon types. Isn't it a little bizarre that ships like the Apoc, Prophecy, and Maller perform as well with projectiles as lasers? This is a little disturbing, considering that nearly every Amarrian ship has a bonus to laser cap usage.
Sniser
Posted - 2006.07.04 13:28:00 -
[1129 ]
Originally by: Buraken v2 Who says I dont understand? I just know that I can kill all other ships in my Geddon/Apoc/Maller/Puni/etc yada yada while ppl for 38 pages or whatever say that Amarr sucks, obvisouly some people arent clever enough to use em correcly or something I dont know. I know that I manage with Amarr very well indeed =) so the prob isnt in the ship, its in the pilot <- bite the bullet f0lks. Edit: Ok not ALL ships =p but alot lets say i can kill a bs(its afk or something :P) with an ibis but that doesnt mean my ibis is a good ship ;)
Tiuwaz
Posted - 2006.07.04 13:33:00 -
[1130 ]
come on guys, you can easily whine up to 50 pages, show me those tears Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Heiken Wimast
Posted - 2006.07.04 13:50:00 -
[1131 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Cruiser DPS of the Maller, Ruppie, and Rax with heaviest and medium short range weapons. Pathetic...
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.04 13:53:00 -
[1132 ]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 04/07/2006 13:54:08 Originally by: Heiken Wimast Originally by: Nyxus Cruiser DPS of the Maller, Ruppie, and Rax with heaviest and medium short range weapons. Pathetic... That's because the maller is a tanking ship, not a combat ship. Compare it with the Omen for a proper comparison. And people say I'm biased Edit, also, the rax & rupture damage is a little bit higher as he isn't using thermal drones.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Yodohime Kibagami
Posted - 2006.07.04 14:25:00 -
[1133 ]
Edited by: Yodohime Kibagami on 04/07/2006 14:26:38 Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 04/07/2006 13:54:08 Originally by: Heiken Wimast Originally by: Nyxus Cruiser DPS of the Maller, Ruppie, and Rax with heaviest and medium short range weapons. Pathetic... That's because the maller is a tanking ship, not a combat ship. Compare it with the Omen for a proper comparison. And people say I'm biased Edit, also, the rax & rupture damage is a little bit higher as he isn't using thermal drones. I'd guess he used maller because (a) its tier 3 and (b) does better at dealing damage because even though Omen does slightly better damage with 4 turrets with RoF at high level boni than 5, it has much less grid to put on its weapons and the RoF bonus also means it is more efficient at doing damage AND pumping its cap dry. The RoF bonus should be 7.5% per level because its killing the cap, even with l33t skills
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.04 14:40:00 -
[1134 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 04/07/2006 13:54:08 Originally by: Heiken Wimast Originally by: Nyxus Cruiser DPS of the Maller, Ruppie, and Rax with heaviest and medium short range weapons. Pathetic... That's because the maller is a tanking ship, not a combat ship. Compare it with the Omen for a proper comparison. And people say I'm biased Edit, also, the rax & rupture damage is a little bit higher as he isn't using thermal drones. Problem here is: Is the maller THAT good in tanking that it makes a dps of about half that of the other races top-cruisers balanced? If it would be in the 250-300 dps range saying "It's a tanking ship" would be a valid point, but right now...I doubt changing drones will improve the dps significantly. In short: Yes, it is a tanking ship, so it should have worse dps than less tanking focussed ships. But "worse" would be more like 25%-30% less, not 50% less.
Lisento Slaven
Posted - 2006.07.04 15:24:00 -
[1135 ]
Amarr = Fleet Ships Don't use them anywhere else (except the curse...that's a fun ship). --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Monkphish
Posted - 2006.07.04 15:31:00 -
[1136 ]
cap use/rof bonus on armarr ships is crazy, one bonus decreases cap use and the other increases it
south24
Posted - 2006.07.04 15:45:00 -
[1137 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Cruiser DPS of the Maller, Ruppie, and Rax with heaviest and medium short range weapons. when did t2 become best named?
Talthrus
Posted - 2006.07.04 18:14:00 -
[1138 ]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven Amarr = Fleet Ships Don't use them anywhere else (except the curse...that's a fun ship). I don't think CCP had that in mind when they were designing the Amarr ships nor does everyone in EVE go into fleet battles. ----------------------
Lisento Slaven
Posted - 2006.07.04 20:35:00 -
[1139 ]
Edited by: Lisento Slaven on 04/07/2006 20:35:04 Originally by: Talthrus Originally by: Lisento Slaven Amarr = Fleet Ships Don't use them anywhere else (except the curse...that's a fun ship). I don't think CCP had that in mind when they were designing the Amarr ships nor does everyone in EVE go into fleet battles. Read the description of the Amarr Navy...and those are NAVY ships =P --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.04 21:27:00 -
[1140 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 04/07/2006 21:28:20 Actually, no. The "navy" versions are the navy ships. And it's not like that the other races ships are in this aspect different. A very solo-viable Thorax or Dominix is also very similar to what the Gallente Navy uses and if I am not mistaken their credo isn't "let's everyone go solo" either. Their conflicts with the Caldari were fleet battles. And you cannot really apply gamelore to gamebalance. Amarr are supposed to use strength in numbers to defeat their targets. So should all amarr players get a free 2nd account?
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.07.04 22:15:00 -
[1141 ]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 04/07/2006 22:15:35 Originally by: Altai Saker For shortrange... you are outclassed by far by the taranis and the claw... Don't believe me? 1v1 my taranis anytime. I'm not challenging this at all, really. Originally by: Altai Saker I guess I should start a boost the crusader thread, or rather, make small beams possible to fit. They indeed need to be easier to fit, even though it shouldn't be easy to fit a full rack of medium beams on a crusader. Originally by: Altai Saker Also - the taranis isnt slow and heavy, train skills and add some cheapo implants... whats that 4.7kms with a 1mn II ? thought so. It still has got worse stats than average as far as base speed, mass and sig radius are concerned. That doesn't make it a bad inty but does make a difference. I was merely saying that I like it in the long range role, that was all. Originally by: south24 when did t2 become best named? [Best T1] refers to the ammo type, not weapons and their named variations. NB.
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.07.05 00:05:00 -
[1142 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Nyxus Cruiser DPS of the Maller, Ruppie, and Rax with heaviest and medium short range weapons. That's because the maller is a tanking ship, not a combat ship. Compare it with the Omen for a proper comparison. They are all combat ships. ALL of them. The comparison is the comparison between a ship that has a tanking bonus (Maller) and ships that have a damage bonus (Rax, Ruppie) that are the same tier. All ships have almost identical amounts of armor and shields, overall number of slots, and cpu/grid after fitting similar weapons. The AC ruppie however does have VERY large amounts of cpu/grid after fitting weapons if you use anything other than t2 heavies in the launcher slots. The fact of the matter is, a 25% resist bonus just isn't equal to twice the damage output, and having more flexibility in damage types besides. I fail to see how anyone can produce any evidence to the contrary. Even observed shiptype numbers in pvp, biased as it may be, corroborates it. The problem lies in armor tanking itself (shield tanking isn't as hurt because mids are so much more useful than lows). If both the Rax and Maller have roughly the same cpu/grid after fitting similar weapons, they will have similar tanks, even if the tanking ship has more lows because the tanking ship lacks the grid/cpu to fit tanking mods. The resistance bonus doesn't produce a survivability differential great enough to overcome the DPS output and flexibility of the damage boat.Options to fix it - Ships like the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy/Apoc who are designed to specifically tank better should get 5% resist per level and a 10% to armor per level in one tanking bonus. This bonus would be similar to how drone ships get a "2 fer 1" type of bonus on damage and hp. They also need a bit more grid/cpu to be able to fit all thier slots, including the utility slot. Or ships like the Punisher/Maller/Proph/Apoc who have lower dps output should have enough grid/cpu to be able to fit a similar rack of weapons as thier contemporaries while still being able to fit a dual repper in the lows. They are forced to do lower dps (they do by lacking any bonuses) while they should be able to tank more/better. Currently they don't to any significant extent. Personally I like option 1. The maller would have about twice the armor of a ruppie/rax, while the ruppie/rax would have the flexibility of twice the damage, with variable damage types. It also reinforces the Amarr "Guns'N Lasers" philosophy" and makes them much better tanks than thier contemporaries and makes up for lower dps. Option #2 works as well, but worries me because dual rep can sometimes cause situations where ship A can tank ship B forever. Most of the time though they can only tank as long as they have cap boosters, which would take a while but be fine with me. Just my thoughts on making Amarr ships a bit more useful other than the drone boats and the geddon. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
vyperpit
Posted - 2006.07.05 00:11:00 -
[1143 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 04/07/2006 13:54:08 Originally by: Heiken Wimast Originally by: Nyxus Cruiser DPS of the Maller, Ruppie, and Rax with heaviest and medium short range weapons. Pathetic... That's because the maller is a tanking ship, not a combat ship. Compare it with the Omen for a proper comparison. And people say I'm biased Edit, also, the rax & rupture damage is a little bit higher as he isn't using thermal drones. maller has 5 turrets to the omens 4, so add 6.666% to that graph and u get the omens DPS but on top of all this, note that the mallers/omen setup are impossible to fit, try getting a mwd on them with a workable setup!
Lisento Slaven
Posted - 2006.07.05 02:49:00 -
[1144 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 04/07/2006 21:28:20 Actually, no. The "navy" versions are the navy ships. And it's not like that the other races ships are in this aspect different. A very solo-viable Thorax or Dominix is also very similar to what the Gallente Navy uses and if I am not mistaken their credo isn't "let's everyone go solo" either. Their conflicts with the Caldari were fleet battles. And you cannot really apply gamelore to gamebalance. Amarr are supposed to use strength in numbers to defeat their targets. So should all amarr players get a free 2nd account? I'm saying that their optimal range bonus let's them support each other better. Since they do not deal enough damage solo (Maller for example) it has to be with friends to make up for it. Amarr are flying armor plates, not damage dealers. So the only way to fight with flying armor plates that do pecking damage, is to throw more plates out there till the damage adds up. That's how they work right now. They work like that because most ships in the game are armor tanks as well. Where as the amarr only do massive damage to shields. Too bad the Amarr allied themselves with the caldari! Two tanking races vs two damage dealers. We'll be seeing plenty of Tempests warping in...shooting twice...and warping out before any Amarr or caldari manage to hit them or kill them =P --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Shugo Kazuma
Posted - 2006.07.05 04:09:00 -
[1145 ]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven Amarr are flying armor plates, not damage dealers. So the only way to fight with flying armor plates that do pecking damage, is to throw more plates out there till the damage adds up. That's how they work right now. I dunno, that's almost the same as saying the Amarr need to use Blob Warfare in order to defeat anyone. But in any case, wouldn't that mean that any Amarr force that meets a force of similar size will be totally overwealmed by the other guys? I still don't get the whole idea of why lasers have such a high cap consumption rate that it's not even close to being viable for other races to fit amarr guns unless they're flying amarr ships. I mean, it would be like replacing a bonus on all Gallente ships with "Projectiles use 20% less cap per level of Gallente [ship type]" and then giving projectiles this huge cap useage in order to prevent other races from using their weapons systems properly. They should drop laser cap use by 40-50% and change all the cap use bonuses on amarr ships to something more workable. Like some sort of armour or resist bonus (Amarr are supposed to be armour and guns) and then see how that pans out. Explosive crystals seem way over the top as a fix, and giving the Amarr 2 real bonuses rather than 1 bonus and a psudo bonus they need to run their weapons properly, people might stop *****ing so much.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.05 08:47:00 -
[1146 ]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven I'm saying that their optimal range bonus let's them support each other better. Since they do not deal enough damage solo (Maller for example) it has to be with friends to make up for it... Exept that does not work. 2 cruisers will obviously be able to kill 1 cruiser, thats a no-brainer. But 2 mallers will fail vs 2 ruptures just as 1 maller will fail vs 1. Amarr cannot focus fire more effeciently than other races. Originally by: Shugo Kazuma ..They should drop laser cap use by 40-50% and change all the cap use bonuses on amarr ships to something more workable. Like some sort of armour or resist bonus (Amarr are supposed to be armour and guns) and then see how that pans out. Explosive crystals seem way over the top as a fix, and giving the Amarr 2 real bonuses rather than 1 bonus and a psudo bonus they need to run their weapons properly, people might stop *****ing so much. Why are people always bringing this up? Amarr only have this "pseudo" bonus because lasers already have an higher damagemod than other turrets! Compare beam lasers and rails before *****ing about that.
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.07.05 09:10:00 -
[1147 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Why are people always bringing this up? Amarr only have this "pseudo" bonus because lasers already have an higher damagemod than other turrets! Compare beam lasers and rails before *****ing about that. Ahrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg!
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.05 09:58:00 -
[1148 ]
Care to elaborte?
Forsch
Posted - 2006.07.05 10:59:00 -
[1149 ]
Ah, stop arguing about the cap reduction bonus. They wanted lasers to be different so they gave them higher damage along with higher cap usage and a bonus to bring that back to a manageable level again. It just means that at lower levels, as long as you can manage your cap, you will have higher damage with lasers than with other turrets. Which is a nice and noob friendly feature. I don't see this as a problem of the Amarr race. Problems I see: - EM dmg is too easy resisted these days making the damage of lasers kinda low - Fitting requirements of some lasers are too stiff - Some ships cannot fulfill their roles (mostly the tanking ships like maller, prophecy and apoc) (- Too vulnerable to EW (TDs, ECM). Okay, someone has to be at the bottom end. But atm Amarr has nothing to make up for that.) - Oh and.. the Khanid ships need a reworkForsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Lisento Slaven
Posted - 2006.07.05 15:47:00 -
[1150 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Lisento Slaven I'm saying that their optimal range bonus let's them support each other better. Since they do not deal enough damage solo (Maller for example) it has to be with friends to make up for it... Exept that does not work. 2 cruisers will obviously be able to kill 1 cruiser, thats a no-brainer. But 2 mallers will fail vs 2 ruptures just as 1 maller will fail vs 1. Amarr cannot focus fire more effeciently than other races. You're wrong there because I've beaten a Rupture with my Maller 1v1. He had an AB instead of MWD =P His cap hit 0 before mine did. The Amarr ships are not completely useless, they just don't do much damage. I couldn't break his tank at all until his cap ran out and that was after like....7 minutes. 1 v 1 Amarr can not do enough damage to break tanks. They have to out-last tanks. If he had a MWD I would have died as my web would not have been enough. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.05 16:01:00 -
[1151 ]
With all things being equal obviously. A maller with a good fitting/skills will beat a rupture with a bad fitting/skills. And, again, amarr ships do not suddenly get more effective than other races ships. They do not have any special advantages as group that other races ships in groups do not have.
Devoras2
Posted - 2006.07.05 21:11:00 -
[1152 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Nyxus Cruiser DPS of the Maller, Ruppie, and Rax with heaviest and medium short range weapons. That's because the maller is a tanking ship, not a combat ship. Compare it with the Omen for a proper comparison. They are all combat ships. ALL of them. The comparison is the comparison between a ship that has a tanking bonus (Maller) and ships that have a damage bonus (Rax, Ruppie) that are the same tier. All ships have almost identical amounts of armor and shields, overall number of slots, and cpu/grid after fitting similar weapons. The AC ruppie however does have VERY large amounts of cpu/grid after fitting weapons if you use anything other than t2 heavies in the launcher slots. The fact of the matter is, a 25% resist bonus just isn't equal to twice the damage output, and having more flexibility in damage types besides. I fail to see how anyone can produce any evidence to the contrary. Even observed shiptype numbers in pvp, biased as it may be, corroborates it. The problem lies in armor tanking itself (shield tanking isn't as hurt because mids are so much more useful than lows). If both the Rax and Maller have roughly the same cpu/grid after fitting similar weapons, they will have similar tanks, even if the tanking ship has more lows because the tanking ship lacks the grid/cpu to fit tanking mods. The resistance bonus doesn't produce a survivability differential great enough to overcome the DPS output and flexibility of the damage boat.Options to fix it - Ships like the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy/Apoc who are designed to specifically tank better should get 5% resist per level and a 10% to armor per level in one tanking bonus. This bonus would be similar to how drone ships get a "2 fer 1" type of bonus on damage and hp. They also need a bit more grid/cpu to be able to fit all thier slots, including the utility slot. Or ships like the Punisher/Maller/Proph/Apoc who have lower dps output should have enough grid/cpu to be able to fit a similar rack of weapons as thier contemporaries while still being able to fit a dual repper in the lows. They are forced to do lower dps (they do by lacking any bonuses) while they should be able to tank more/better. Currently they don't to any significant extent. Personally I like option 1. The maller would have about twice the armor of a ruppie/rax, while the ruppie/rax would have the flexibility of twice the damage, with variable damage types. It also reinforces the Amarr "Guns'N Lasers" philosophy" and makes them much better tanks than thier contemporaries and makes up for lower dps. Option #2 works as well, but worries me because dual rep can sometimes cause situations where ship A can tank ship B forever. Most of the time though they can only tank as long as they have cap boosters, which would take a while but be fine with me. Just my thoughts on making Amarr ships a bit more useful other than the drone boats and the geddon. Nyxus Option 1 is more preferable, if we are to follow the typical Amarr class of armor tankers. And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Lisento Slaven
Posted - 2006.07.05 22:25:00 -
[1153 ]
I still want to see more DPS chart comparisons of ships/weapon types...it's always fun looking at them and how they base things on DPS. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.07.05 22:55:00 -
[1154 ]
OMG pls stop this!!
Caldorous
Posted - 2006.07.05 23:30:00 -
[1155 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 04/07/2006 13:54:08 Originally by: Heiken Wimast Originally by: Nyxus Cruiser DPS of the Maller, Ruppie, and Rax with heaviest and medium short range weapons. Pathetic... That's because the maller is a tanking ship, not a combat ship. Compare it with the Omen for a proper comparison. And people say I'm biased Edit, also, the rax & rupture damage is a little bit higher as he isn't using thermal drones. just a question, the maller has a +25% rof bonus (with amarr cruiser at lvl 5) but only has 4 turrets, a maller has 5 turrets (+25% more turrets). Does the omen end doing more damage than a maller when seems that both should do the same damage? -----------------------------
Lisento Slaven
Posted - 2006.07.05 23:32:00 -
[1156 ]
Originally by: Caldorous just a question, the maller has a +25% rof bonus (with amarr cruiser at lvl 5) but only has 4 turrets, a maller has 5 turrets (+25% more turrets). Does the omen end doing more damage than a maller when seems that both should do the same damage? The omen will eventually do more damage than the mauler as it fires faster. The omen does more "DPS" but it takes a while for the actual damage to add up and equal more than what the maller has dished out. That's why I don't like ROF bonuses and the use of DPS as an argument. If you are going to say ROF is useful say how many volleys it will take to overcome the damage of the other ships without the bonus. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.07.06 00:03:00 -
[1157 ]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 06/07/2006 00:11:19 Originally by: Lisento Slaven The omen will eventually do more damage than the mauler as it fires faster. The omen does more "DPS" but it takes a while for the actual damage to add up and equal more than what the maller has dished out. That's why I don't like ROF bonuses and the use of DPS as an argument. If you are going to say ROF is useful say how many volleys it will take to overcome the damage of the other ships without the bonus. Actually it's pretty fast, at least with pulses:dps (range) cumulative damage (time) The relative damage of the maller took quite a hit with the stacking penalty changes and the light/medium drone changes. It used to be the second highest damage dealer behind the thorax (behind... by a decent margin even). Omen was in about any comparable scenario behind the maller damage wise. Now, with a few drones, the damage of the omen can be higher than the damage of the maller, whereas previously it wasn't really possible with comparable setups. NB.
Shugo Kazuma
Posted - 2006.07.06 04:07:00 -
[1158 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Why are people always bringing this up? Amarr only have this "pseudo" bonus because lasers already have an higher damagemod than other turrets! Compare beam lasers and rails before *****ing about that. I'm just saying, you can find people who suggest things like the maller autocannon setup, or using guns for all the other races, but I've NEVER seen anyone suggest say a Gallente/Minmitar pulse/beam laser setup or any race other than the Amarr to use lasers as their primary weapons platform. I mean, if they are in fact that much better, you'd think you'd see at least a few people touting non Amarr ships using laser setups in the same way you see Amarr ship setup suggestions using other racial guns.
Chief Seattle
Posted - 2006.07.06 04:45:00 -
[1159 ]
anyone know what QFT is? i already added my 2 cents here, though this thread is so long it wont ever get read.... i wonder if i could purchase a female sig and make some siglets.....
Stephar
Posted - 2006.07.06 05:26:00 -
[1160 ]
Originally by: Shugo Kazuma I'm just saying, you can find people who suggest things like the maller autocannon setup, or using guns for all the other races, but I've NEVER seen anyone suggest say a Gallente/Minmitar pulse/beam laser setup or any race other than the Amarr to use lasers as their primary weapons platform. I mean, if they are in fact that much better, you'd think you'd see at least a few people touting non Amarr ships using laser setups in the same way you see Amarr ship setup suggestions using other racial guns. Well said.
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.06 09:00:00 -
[1161 ]
The reason you never see people say "use lasers" on other ships is because without the bonus to half their cap usage they are totally unviable to other races. Projectiles work well on Amarr because although they don't get the damage bonus for them, Amarr ships generally have more turret points to help make up for it. Think before you type.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.06 09:12:00 -
[1162 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Think before you type. Warning irony overload!
Sarmaul
Posted - 2006.07.06 09:17:00 -
[1163 ]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: Sarmaul Think before you type. Warning irony overload! Haven't you been banned yet? It seems your sole purpose is to insult anyone trying to argue/refute the points raised in this thread.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.06 10:40:00 -
[1164 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 06/07/2006 10:44:57 Originally by: Shugo Kazuma I'm just saying, you can find people who suggest things like the maller autocannon setup, or using guns for all the other races, but I've NEVER seen anyone suggest say a Gallente/Minmitar pulse/beam laser setup or any race other than the Amarr to use lasers as their primary weapons platform. I mean, if they are in fact that much better, you'd think you'd see at least a few people touting non Amarr ships using laser setups in the same way you see Amarr ship setup suggestions using other racial guns. Yes, but this is not because a "useless" ship bonus. It is because most lasers have (even considering the higher grid on most Amarr ships) still too high fitting requirements - for the best pulses of it's class an amarr ship usually needs a RCU and can fit instead the best ACs and a gyro and doing as effect pretty much the same damage. With a somewhat shorter range, though, but without needing cap. If the fitting requirements would be slightly reduced so a RCU wouldn't be needed ACs would be by far not as an effective alternative. Also, due to the high capuse (even with the 50% bonus) of lasers there isn't really much left of the so-called amarr uber-tank. This means the amarr tanking ships (maller, prophecy, apoc) often switch to ACs to be able to actually fulfill their role. For this I see no real solution. Reducing the laser cap usage would cause problems with other amarr ships, boosting their tanking (at least for this reason) wouldn't change that ACs are more effective than lasers. Perhaps giving only these ships a 60% laser cap bonus? *shrugs* Lasers do have problems, but changing reducing the capneed of lasers and removing the -50% cap ship boni would be completely the wrong way to "solve" them. The pre-resistance dps and cap/s with 5/5 ship skill of lasers is just fine.
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.07.06 10:58:00 -
[1165 ]
Forgive me for not reading all 1170 posts, but I have better things to do than read all of that. No problem with Amarr, the real problem is ECM which puts added value in mid slots. The OP's "give us explosive t2 ammo" is just a bad "quick fix" idea. Hybrid ammo doesn't get explosive, and with the higher base DPS of lasers it would be a wtfpawn change. Projectiles get that choice because of lower base DPS and having to carry thousands of rounds of the stuff limiting our ammo choice unlike crystals.
Sniser
Posted - 2006.07.06 11:46:00 -
[1166 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Forgive me for not reading all 1170 posts, but I have better things to do than read all of that. No problem with Amarr, the real problem is ECM which puts added value in mid slots. The OP's "give us explosive t2 ammo" is just a bad "quick fix" idea. Hybrid ammo doesn't get explosive, and with the higher base DPS of lasers it would be a wtfpawn change. Projectiles get that choice because of lower base DPS and having to carry thousands of rounds of the stuff limiting our ammo choice unlike crystals. read then 550 posts :P
Nemain
Posted - 2006.07.06 11:47:00 -
[1167 ]
After doing some vigourous testing with all the races I have come to the conclusion that amarr is lacking, tho only slightly. If the other 3 races were 100% then amarr would be about 95-97%, so not that far off just not quite there. In my personal opinion there are a few changes that can be made, a few that will be fairly difficult to sort, and a few that all races suffer from. 1. Turrets - Medium beam is pretty much agreed to have too high PG (en with AWU 5), dropping it to 280mm levels would sort it out cpu can stay as is. Small pulse's were the only real casualty of the Megapulse nerf, returning the range to somwhere close to their pre nerf levels would sort them. 2. Crystals - As much as I would like an explosive crystal, I don't think that will sort the problem with crystals in general. They need to have their damage reverted to what it was before they were changed. That also includes Radio getting it's damage put back up. Being the shortest range long range ammo it should do more damage, it used to be balanced against iridium and proton as it had the same range when compared in rails beams and artillery, either that or getting some thermal damage. I know a few think crystals should do mostly em due to it being amarrs racial damage. To that I say, how about if AM did all thermal (being the shortest range ammo it is designed for galante blasters) and iron did only kinetic (being the longest range ammo it's designed for caldari rails) then all the othe ammo having a bit of each damage untill it reached 50/50 at Lead. What about all projectile ammo doing 60-75 exp with the other damage types divided amoung the remaining 40-25% (mostly closer to 25%). Not exactly a good idea is it, but then thats what would happen if Hybrid and Projectile ammo was balanced to the same racial level as crystals, it also sort of puts things into perspective. 3. Tanking and ganking - Tho it is their only 2 very specialised roles Amarr are no longer the tanks or gankers they once were. Now they do little better than other races if at all. Due to the tanking buffs (EANM, DC's and Cap Charge size reduction)and damage mod nerf, they have their primary damage being the most heavily tanked on average by ships that can tank as well as most amarr ships. This tho is a bit more difficult to sort. While the damage output can be sorted with a crystal change favouring greater thermal damage, the actual tanking problem cannnot be so easily sorted wthout causing other balance problems. 4. Roles - While amarr in general no longer fullfill their narrow roles to the same degree the other races fill theirs, there is also the problem of the khanid ships. Sarmaul has hit the nail on the head for that solution tho in his Khanid MKII thread. It says somthing when everyone tends to agree on the khanid issue. 5. Ships - Every race has a few ships that need fixing or just being given a little buff to make them shine. In amarrs case, it's the omen, maller and aurgoror. The Omen and maller could be hellped with a slight grid (maybe cpu) increase, the augoror is just one of those ships most people skip to get to the decent ones. Logistics bonus aside the caldari and minmattar equivilents are miners and gally has the cargo ship, amarr has the amrour ship. I think a mass and sig decrease so that it becomes a bit more agile would help the augoror, make it a sort of heavy t1 inty (it's lack of damage bonus and mid slots will keep it balanced). Throw in the missing frig and we are sorted. Other than that I can't see any other major issues with amarr. Mid you I have always thought that the ship skill should add a bonus to that races ships as well, this would help sort alot of problems in general. For example Amarr - +2-5% armour resists per level Caldari - +2-5% shield resists per level Galante - -2-5% MWD Penalty reduction per level Minmattar - +2-5% Base speed per level Somthing not too overpowered but helps emphasize the racial styles
Sniser
Posted - 2006.07.08 11:36:00 -
[1168 ]
up! :P
DarkPanther
Posted - 2006.07.08 13:45:00 -
[1169 ]
Does any 1 else have an issue with the retribution only having 1 mid / cant ccp remove the 5th high slot and make it into a mid slot plz ?
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.07.08 16:49:00 -
[1170 ]
Originally by: DarkPanther Does any 1 else have an issue with the retribution only having 1 mid / cant ccp remove the 5th high slot and make it into a mid slot plz ? Well, it's part of the whole thing that last 40 pages so far. We're all having problem with Retri, Sac and lots more.... Just too much for me to summarise all those again.. God bless us. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Nemain
Posted - 2006.07.08 18:13:00 -
[1171 ]
Originally by: DarkPanther Does any 1 else have an issue with the retribution only having 1 mid / cant ccp remove the 5th high slot and make it into a mid slot plz ? The ret is an odd one to sort. True the 1 mid slot is a pain, no missile hard point like all the other Assaults is a bit of a downside, and fitting medium beams is no end of trouble. The only problem is How would you fix it without causing other problems? Personally I'd like the Ret to be alot more like the zealot. Keep the slots as they are now, but increase the speed and lower the mass and sig radius. Idealy somthing more akin to the minmattar ships (or just far better speed and mass). This would mean that the ret would be more like a tough somewhat slower inty, but would not be able to tackle. It would be pure damage dealer, that has to catch it's targets, as opposed to web and scrambling them. Fix the grid on the medium beams and it would be sorted, it would have to rely on it's extended range and speed to kill it's prey. Well thats just an idea, I would much rather have somthing thats unique than somthing like all the others.
Commander Thrawn
Posted - 2006.07.10 20:02:00 -
[1172 ]
this things is dropping too far back. Any word or a resolution yet?
Stephar
Posted - 2006.07.10 20:45:00 -
[1173 ]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn this things is dropping too far back. Any word or a resolution yet? I doubt there will be a resolution until people begin abandoning Amarr vessels in favor of other racial ships. I guess this has already happened to a minor extent, but I still see a lot of Amarr being flown.
Stamm
Posted - 2006.07.10 20:48:00 -
[1174 ]
Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Commander Thrawn this things is dropping too far back. Any word or a resolution yet? I doubt there will be a resolution until people begin abandoning Amarr vessels in favor of other racial ships. I guess this has already happened to a minor extent, but I still see a lot of Amarr being flown. I think we underestimate the devs. If I remember correctly they finally commented on the Battlecruisers thread with something along the lines of 'Of course we've read it'. It'd be hard of them not to have noticed this thread :)
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.10 20:56:00 -
[1175 ]
Noticing and acknowledging are 2 different things. Not that we can "force" them to do that latter thing. Either way, CCP has it's summer holiday now, so we won't see anything happening the next 4 week anyway.
Forsch
Posted - 2006.07.10 23:14:00 -
[1176 ]
Originally by: Stamm I think we underestimate the devs. If I remember correctly they finally commented on the Battlecruisers thread with something along the lines of 'Of course we've read it'. It'd be hard of them not to have noticed this thread :) 'SOME' feedback from the dev side would be nice to have tho. Of course the problem is, everyone will cry for dev comments to their threads. Maybe the devs could set up a weekly post commenting on the most pressing issues/threads. (Or at least saying that they've read them.)Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
gu o
Posted - 2006.07.10 23:15:00 -
[1177 ]
Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Commander Thrawn this things is dropping too far back. Any word or a resolution yet? I doubt there will be a resolution until people begin abandoning Amarr vessels in favor of other racial ships. I guess this has already happened to a minor extent, but I still see a lot of Amarr being flown. I have abbandond all hope of effectivly using amarr t1 ships. guess ill make my 2nd account char my main with 1/8 the sp of this one. I have mad eleaps and bounds in damage output by training for gallient bs... the domi puts amarr bs's to shame. It is so simple to use, and the versitility (sp) is amazing. I will not pretend to be "great all knowing" and put for the changes that need to be made. but i have been pretty upset after training up and trying to use amarr bs's; then learning that they are terrible. DOMI ftw now... were is my super sweet drone/gun amarr boat besides the arbi which is my fav ship by far...
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.07.11 10:17:00 -
[1178 ]
Originally by: gu o Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Commander Thrawn this things is dropping too far back. Any word or a resolution yet? I doubt there will be a resolution until people begin abandoning Amarr vessels in favor of other racial ships. I guess this has already happened to a minor extent, but I still see a lot of Amarr being flown. I have abbandond all hope of effectivly using amarr t1 ships. guess ill make my 2nd account char my main with 1/8 the sp of this one. I have mad eleaps and bounds in damage output by training for gallient bs... the domi puts amarr bs's to shame. It is so simple to use, and the versitility (sp) is amazing. I will not pretend to be "great all knowing" and put for the changes that need to be made. but i have been pretty upset after training up and trying to use amarr bs's; then learning that they are terrible. DOMI ftw now... were is my super sweet drone/gun amarr boat besides the arbi which is my fav ship by far... Well, this thing have been going for too long, lots of people losing their hope and also faith, even me, feeling like being a beggar rather than being in a rightful debate. Still, people still will flying Amarr ships for a long while because many, many have train too well for them, like me, 38 mils SP char all for Amarr. So, I'll digging out the best of whatever we have, awesome Absolution !!! Let's enjoy it, the left over power of Amarr, Command ships level 5 in 10 days !! Yeha !!! It just a game, right ?? Have fun ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Kardim
Posted - 2006.07.11 12:17:00 -
[1179 ]
if you spend a year or two training up a race for it to work well and it doesnt then no its not just a game, its a job. you only take the skills to lvl 5 cause the hope that well maybe that extra lil bit will let me win a fight.... then find out you wont, bit depressing anyways ive about abandoned amarr for any pvp and most npc, training caldari now and when i get to raven i can be a god like everyone else (npc atleast) sigh
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.11 21:33:00 -
[1180 ]
Originally by: Kardim if you spend a year or two training up a race for it to work well and it doesnt then no its not just a game, its a job. you only take the skills to lvl 5 cause the hope that well maybe that extra lil bit will let me win a fight.... then find out you wont, bit depressing anyways ive about abandoned amarr for any pvp and most npc, training caldari now and when i get to raven i can be a god like everyone else (npc atleast) sigh Yup, its things like that that makes kittens cry :(
gu o
Posted - 2006.07.11 22:05:00 -
[1181 ]
Originally by: Kardim if you spend a year or two training up a race for it to work well and it doesnt then no its not just a game, its a job. you only take the skills to lvl 5 cause the hope that well maybe that extra lil bit will let me win a fight.... then find out you wont, bit depressing anyways ive about abandoned amarr for any pvp and most npc, training caldari now and when i get to raven i can be a god like everyone else (npc atleast) sigh Sad when I play a buds account for a little bit. 1mil sp char in a raven shooting torps. every torp was 450+damage... I saw that and nearly screamed cmon how can this be fair? 450+ every shot granted this was pve against bs rats. But h3ll my geddon cannot do that in any circumstance. not to mention I can only kill sansha rats. time to train for raven... no wonder EVERYONE uses ravens now. its not even remotely funny. *abbadon's amarr as they have no hope with the great bonuses they have been given recently.
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.07.11 22:10:00 -
[1182 ]
I've got this idea to sort of see how everyone faired after the stacking changes and after the introduction of armor and shield compensation skills. I get this feeling that Amarr may have gotten hurt a little worse because everyone else got pulled to a more tank and damage combo (to try to raise fight times), where as Amarr got left with basically ships for damage, and ships for tanking that were no longer good enough in their roles to be balanced, oh and being stuck with an odd em/thermal ratio. (Then's there is npc resist bias). Ok, someone needs to help me do the math. I think this might be an informative test. Let's look at how much the old standard pvp armor setups mitigated damage of t1 cruisers and battleships with common setups like what you would find on the forums, not pulled out of your ... please. I think DPS is a fairer measure than alpha strike damage which is only really important in fleet engagements. Picking which base resists to modify is going to be annoying, but it needs to be an armor tanked ship of the same class, or just use an average of armor tanked resists or just roughly equal resists, lets say 60% with em higher to reflect it's higher base resist, and the weapons need to be either short or long range, with the correct ammo/crystals used for that range. Make sure drones are included in dps calculations. So it would look like: Geddon: dps before mitigation dps after Mega: dps before after Apoc dps before after and so on. (using standard pvp setups, not setups where you know your enemy before you fight) Then let's see how Amarr and everyone else fare after the introduction of damage mod stacking penalties and new damage mitigation skills and gear. Do the test with the new mitigation. Which ship's dps takes the biggest damage percentage hit or gain? I seem to remeber no one calling for an Amarr nerf outside of the gank geddon, so if the Amarr take a bigger hit than others we have a problem. It is an odd test and it might not be worth doing, but it's what my medicated brian came up with. It doesn't account for a large number of other balance factors, so I think it might just be easier to try some of the slighter changes on the test server and see what happens.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.12 11:24:00 -
[1183 ]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 12/07/2006 11:23:59 Does anyone know how the community felt about RMR btw? Personaly I thought the stacking penalty was rubbish and thus making rmr pointless.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.12 12:08:00 -
[1184 ]
No real clue about how the stacking changes changed the raw dps output of the various ships, but from the tanking it's fairly straightforward: Pre RMR: 3 active harderners: kin, exp, therm. Post RMR: 2 EAN + damage control. With the stacking penality the 3rd EAN2 gives only 14.3% resistance (with maxxed skills, 13.7% with them on lvl 4), the best named has 14% and is not effected by the stacking penalities AND gives 58% hull resistance, too, so it's better than a 3rd nano. This combo gives with lvl 5 in the compensation skills 49.5% in all resistances, 48.3% with lvl 4. And 58% hull resists. So, exp, kin and therm damage got vs armor a 12-15% dps boost while EM damage does only 51-52% of its previous dps. Note that it is still better than a 3 harderner setup even when you know that you will not face EM damage if you include the added hull resists into the total ship HP.
Mahavy Seth
Posted - 2006.07.12 13:08:00 -
[1185 ]
Why this topic continue? Why?
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.07.13 03:49:00 -
[1186 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 13/07/2006 03:59:52 Continued......4) Some Amarr ship fittings are BROKEN. PROBLEM Why does the Coercer and the Thrasher have the same fittings, when lasers are MUCH harder to fit and the Coercer has an extra high turret slot? Why does the Crusader and Claw have the same fittings when the Crusader has to fit lasers and has an extra turret to fit as well? Why doesn't the maller have enough grid to fit it's utility slot with ANYTHING? Lasers take more fitting than other weapons. Amarr have more turrets than most other racial ships. GIVING AMARR THE SAME GRID/CPU AS OTHER RACIAL SHIP IS DUMBÖ. Remember kids, don't be dumbÖ - they're all gonna laugh at you! In addition, ships should be able to fill all thier slots with about the same difficulty. Even utility slots. Finally, please consider that low slot mods take up a LOT more CPU than midslot mods take up PG. A LOT. Gallente and Amarr could both use a slight boost to CPU on the ships that primarily armor tank.5) Some Amarr weapons are BROKEN. PROBLEM Amarr have 2 long range frigate guns. One is so weak as to be useless. The other, Medium Beam Lasers (small lasers fyi) don't fit on anything less than a cruiser. Other weapons like Heavy Beams/Pulses are a little too hard to fit, even for ships with extra low slots. Some weapons are non existant when gameplay could really use them. A beam laser between Dual Light Beams and Medium Beams for example. A large equivalent to gatling pulse lasers as well. SOLUTION -Make Medium Beam lasers easier to fit and look up the Beam laser tree to make sure they are all appropriate. Introduce another Small and Medium beam laser that goes in between Dual Lights/Medium Beams. Introduce a Large Gatling Pulse laser. Amarr are the turret specialist race, we need those turrets.6) Amarr EW weapons are in need of some love. PROBLEM -Tracking disruptors only affect tracking and optimal. Out of 4 races, 1 race uses missiles and 1 race depends on falloff rather than optimal. One mid slot on a race severely lacking mid slots, only effecting 50% of the ships you might encounter stinks. SOLUTION Let Tracking disruptors affect tracking, optimal, and falloff. I need a reason to fit more disruptors on my curse/pilgrim/arbi than I do jammers atm.7) Some Amarr slot layouts need adjusting. PROBLEM 1 midslot for pvp just makes a ship decidedly sub par. Yes, there are things you can do with it, but only having 1 mid cripples the ship for pvp. The Coercer and Retri need two mid slots. SOLUTION -The Coercer can lose a low for a mid, and the Retri can lose a high slot for a mid. If the Claw and the Crusader can have the same slot layout (4/2/4) and be balanced then the Retri and Coercer can be more similar in slot layout to thier racial counterparts as well.7) Khanid ships SUCK. Khanid ships are pointless, half-baked versions of the gunboats. Amarr already have less flexibility in ships than other races, we NEED Khanid ships to do/be more than a lesser version of the gunboat/tank we already have.SOLUTION -Sarmaul. His MKII design is exactly what Amarr need for diversity in ships for gameplay and also interest to boost player retention. Missile spewing cool black looking ships are what Amarr desperately need atm. If an itinerant matari slave makes a suggestion to boost Amarr because they stink so much, you know that it HAS to be bad. I know I am leaving some things out, but I am running out of post and I think I have hit the main points. Hopefully Tux and his band of Merry Men can make these adjustments or at least give them a good look. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Antwon Stylez
Posted - 2006.07.13 04:17:00 -
[1187 ]
aye to all of those \o/
Lisento Slaven
Posted - 2006.07.13 05:12:00 -
[1188 ]
I have no problem with any of the ^^ mentioned except numbe 6 about tracking disruptors. Tracking disruptors indirectly effect falloff. Max range for a turret is optimal + 2x falloff. By decreasing their optimal range (by over 50% with t2 tracking disruptors) you've really killed a LOT of that range. Not to mention if you use two disruptors on a 100% turret user. Tracking disruptors are only useless against pure missile and pure drone users. Then again they are a highly specialized and highly affective EWAR module and I see no problem with them currently. They ruin any turret users day. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
BlackHorizon
Posted - 2006.07.13 05:17:00 -
[1189 ]
Edited by: BlackHorizon on 13/07/2006 05:18:13 Tracking disruptors are fine, except their range is a bit too short. Even with high skills, their effective range reaches a maximum around 100km. I suggest their optimal range and falloff should be boosted by 50% so that they are effective up to 150km or so with high skills. Excellent summary Nyxus.
MacQueen
Posted - 2006.07.13 07:34:00 -
[1190 ]
Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 13/07/2006 05:18:13 Tracking disruptors are fine, except their range is a bit too short. Even with high skills, their effective range reaches a maximum around 100km. I suggest their optimal range and falloff should be boosted by 50% so that they are effective up to 150km or so with high skills. Excellent summary Nyxus. First, weldone and thank you, Nyxus. Yup, optimal and fall off of Tracking disruptor should be a bit higher. Lower down optimal affect of Tracking disruptor, but add on the fall off effect as well. ie. Tech I tracking disruptor will decrease tracking to 67.5%, optimal and fall off down to 75%, ect... ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Forsch
Posted - 2006.07.13 07:45:00 -
[1191 ]
Originally by: Nyxus The 25% resist bonus on the maller/proph suffers from the stacking penalty reducing it's overall effectiveness. Since when?Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.13 08:29:00 -
[1192 ]
Probably this old misconception that the way resistance mods work is the "stacking penality". Meaning if you use 2 50% mods the 2nd is "only 25%". But that isn't the stacking penality, folks. The first harderner is reducing the damage you get by half (from 100 to 50) and the 2nd harderner does the same thing (from 50 to 25). The stacking penality is that the 2nd harderner only work with 87% effeciency, meaning it only acts like a 43.5% instead a 50% harderner, meaning it would reduce this 50 damage to 28.25 instead 25. The resistance bonus of amarr ships is not effected by this. An ship with a 25% resistance bonus will always, under any circumstances, recieve 25% less damage from any source than a ship with no resistance bonus and the same modules & skills.
Nifel
Posted - 2006.07.13 08:33:00 -
[1193 ]
I call BULL**** on your explanation of tracking disruptors. It's only partially true for half of our turret based weapons systems (ACs). Any man, woman or dog that relies on falloff for artillery needs to be shot on sight for such a travesty. We hit bad enough as it is with their tracking without you fiddling around with falloff. And the tracking disruptors will fubar the tracking of ACs to the point where they're doing exactly what they're supposed to do: FUBAR the tracking of your opponent's guns. Seriously... just stop. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Nyxus
Posted - 2006.07.13 15:04:00 -
[1194 ]
Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Nyxus The 25% resist bonus on the maller/proph suffers from the stacking penalty reducing it's overall effectiveness. Since when? Hmm, I thought it was on the EAN II stacking line. In any case, the fact of the matter is that tanking is significantly weaker than damage. Tanking ships like the Maller/proph/Moa need a boost to thier base hp to make them more viable. I like the idea of giving them more armor/shield rather than a tanking amount bonus because it keeps them from being able to indefinitely tank. More armor hp just means that they have more survivability than they have now. As of today, a Maller doesn't have significant more survivability than a Rax or Ruppie, with less than half the dps. Originally by: Nifel I call BULL**** on your explanation of tracking disruptors. It's only partially true for half of our turret based weapons systems (ACs). As folks have pointed out, TD's don't work well beyond 100km. Therefore they are primarily a close range ECM. That would be AC's and missiles for Matari. They don't effect missiles at all. And I think the VAST majority of AC fighting occurs in falloff. If you look at a vagbond, a TD doesn't reduce thier range much at all. Reducing it's falloff by 50% would force them in close, just like gallente and amarr ships. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
itsatrappp
Posted - 2006.07.13 15:52:00 -
[1195 ]
just ask yourself this question "when was the last time i saw as many amarr ships in PVP as i have gal/caldari?" Non-drone amarr ships blow for PVP. IMO buff them so at least I have more varity of thigns to shoot at
Sku1ly
Posted - 2006.07.13 18:09:00 -
[1196 ]
I agree with everything Nyxus said, will say or ever has done.STK-S Website
Nifel
Posted - 2006.07.14 07:10:00 -
[1197 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Nifel I call BULL**** on your explanation of tracking disruptors. It's only partially true for half of our turret based weapons systems (ACs). As folks have pointed out, TD's don't work well beyond 100km. Therefore they are primarily a close range ECM. That would be AC's and missiles for Matari. They don't effect missiles at all. And I think the VAST majority of AC fighting occurs in falloff. If you look at a vagbond, a TD doesn't reduce thier range much at all. Reducing it's falloff by 50% would force them in close, just like gallente and amarr ships. Nyxus It's the tracking. Do people need to spell it out for you . Also... you have Target Painters and Remote Sensor Dampeners with a ridiciously small optimal. How about crying wolf for them first? And yes ofc the vast majority of AC-fighting occurs in falloff. We already do 50% of our optimal damage when we fight at 1x falloff, now you wan't to cut it more just to satisfy a need that isn't there? And stop justifying changes (range on TDs) with stuff that's broken (T2 long range ammo). "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Forsch
Posted - 2006.07.14 08:14:00 -
[1198 ]
Imo Tracking Disruptors is the least we have to worry about. Let's focus on the real issues instead.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Sonorra Baki
Posted - 2006.07.14 11:22:00 -
[1199 ]
Could someone with some more time than me on their hands, copy the best posts (best suggestions, best supported facts etc) out from this topic, and into a new "summary topic" ? The new topic should be consisting of a bulleted list, with links to the original posts. Ive seen it done before, with the blaster thread i think, and it was applauded by a dev for summarizing all the good points.
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.14 11:36:00 -
[1200 ]
Nyxus' summary right on this page (and the one before) is quite a good one.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
KillerLU
Sanction.
Posted - 2006.07.14 15:36:00 -
[1201 ]
Edited by: KillerLU on 14/07/2006 15:36:39 Good job Nyxus, you did what everyone should do, point out what's wrong and come with stats. After I read your post, me PVP noob understand now what's wrong with Amarr. This other pages of only whining don't make sense. If someone want to read this thread only read Nyxus post , then you read everything what's important. Again good post Nyxus, except with the tracking disruptor I don't fully agree. Sensor dampeners or target painters have also their useless situations. I think the problem relied on ECM and not necessary on target disr. How about to move this to a new thread? I've troubles that the devs still read this post
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.07.14 17:30:00 -
[1202 ]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 14/07/2006 17:32:52 A few good points in Nyxus post, and a few comments from bald me... Originally by: Nyxus The only options I can think of is either boosting laser dps (which I don't like) or remove the EM hardening effect on EAN II's (which I don't like). This is not an easy fix. Perhaps add more damage to EM heavy crystals. Boosting laser damage, or em damage will make even less people use 3 hardeners based armor tanks, or shield tanks, resulting in no relevant performance boost for amarr. That will decrease the average resistances to other damage types, making it a relative nerf for amarr. And even worse, that's going to free up even more mids for EW, worse for amarr than any other race. Why do I bother, though... the last thing I want to meet in a minmatar ship is a shield tanked ship with invulnerability fields <.< Originally by: Nyxus 6) Amarr EW weapons are in need of some love. PROBLEM -Tracking disruptors only affect tracking and optimal. Out of 4 races, 1 race uses missiles and 1 race depends on falloff rather than optimal. One mid slot on a race severely lacking mid slots, only effecting 50% of the ships you might encounter stinks. SOLUTION Let Tracking disruptors affect tracking, optimal, and falloff. I need a reason to fit more disruptors on my curse/pilgrim/arbi than I do jammers atm. Tracking disruptors are way better in a balance perspective than any other EW, because they are specialized mods. What makes ECM so overpowered is it's versatility, and that's why you better fit them. That versatility needs nuking, big time. Balance needs complexity and versatile mods/ships/setups decrease complexity, bringing balancing nightmares. Even worse, they decrease coordination costs, giving too high returns on one of the only resource that has increasing returns in the game, the number of players in your gang. Making grouping so worthwhile without increasing coordination costs makes for dull gameplay... NB.
Stamm
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.14 18:07:00 -
[1203 ]
A tormentor (picked it since I can't remember it being mentioned here before. It's an Amarr mining frigate). Base resists - 60/20/25/35 With 3 T2 hardeners - 60/64/66.25/70.75 - Average resist - 65.25 With 3 T2 EANs - 79.25/58.47/61.07/66.26 - Average resist - 66.26 The T2 hardeners use 44 CPU each. The EANs use 30 CPU. The T2 hardeners use 1.5 cap per second each. The EANs use none. Both require Hull Upgrades to level V. The EAN2 requires compensation skills to level IV to get these results. To level 3 each (which would take very little time, you'd see very similar results. So when people fit EANs (which they do, since they're better than hardeners for PvP) then EM is the worst thing to hit armour with. There's few shield tanking ships (outside of the alliance tournament) and many of those fit an armour tank anyway. And when you look at PvE. What's the worst thing to hit 3 out of 5 rats with? EM. Caldari can choose damage types with missiles, Gallente with drones, Minmatar with ammo (to a greater or lesser extent). So doing EM damage is a problem, how to fix it? I don't think messing with Amarr is the only solution. Mix around the NPC resists, and give Amarr significantly more thermal into the mix. 50/50 sounds reasonable. And finally, since EANs are the no brainer module to fit, bring their stats down just a touch - or beef up specific hardeners.
Kalaka Jones
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.14 18:40:00 -
[1204 ]
Edited by: Kalaka Jones on 14/07/2006 18:42:37 Originally by: Stamm And when you look at PvE. What's the worst thing to hit 3 out of 5 rats with? EM. Caldari can choose damage types with missiles, Gallente with drones, Minmatar with ammo (to a greater or lesser extent). And whats the best thing to hit 2 out of 5 rats with? EM. Sanshas = EM Bloods = EM Serps = Thermal Angels = Explosive(?) Gurists = Kinetic Oh poor EM damage, you suck vs every NPC Seriously, complaining that you have a hard time NPCing when you possess 2 of the 4 best NPCing ships, and arguably the 2 best overall (no ammo and higher dps than a pure drone npcing domi) just makes it look like you are whining about everything and obscures the legitimate arguments in this thread. Why don't you try using a mega vs sanshas or angels? Or a tempest vs... anything? Also, please stop spouting off the myth that minmatar can choose damage types.
korrey
Posted - 2006.07.14 18:49:00 -
[1205 ]
Edited by: korrey on 14/07/2006 18:51:51 Originally by: Kalaka Jones Why don't you try using a mega vs sanshas or angels? Or a tempest vs... anything? Yes why not? Dolt, look at the topic...'Amarr' thread. If we wanted another races crap we woulndt complain about our own. Please leave the thread, your not helping.
Stamm
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.14 18:59:00 -
[1206 ]
Originally by: Kalaka Jones Edited by: Kalaka Jones on 14/07/2006 18:42:37 Originally by: Stamm And when you look at PvE. What's the worst thing to hit 3 out of 5 rats with? EM. Caldari can choose damage types with missiles, Gallente with drones, Minmatar with ammo (to a greater or lesser extent). And whats the best thing to hit 2 out of 5 rats with? EM. Sanshas = EM Bloods = EM Serps = Thermal Angels = Explosive(?) Gurists = Kinetic Oh poor EM damage, you suck vs every NPC Seriously, complaining that you have a hard time NPCing when you possess 2 of the 4 best NPCing ships, and arguably the 2 best overall (no ammo and higher dps than a pure drone npcing domi) just makes it look like you are whining about everything and obscures the legitimate arguments in this thread. Why don't you try using a mega vs sanshas or angels? Or a tempest vs... anything? Also, please stop spouting off the myth that minmatar can choose damage types. Mr Noob Alt. I did say to a greater or lesser extent. And you are correct, the best thing to hit Sansha and Blood Raiders with is EM. And the second best is Thermal. That really suits lasers. On the other hand it suits Ravens too. And it suits EMP. And Gallente don't do too badly either since their weapons do mainly thermal (with kinetic) and their drones can do EM. And the two best NPCing ships are the Apoc and the Geddon? That's just a blatant lie.
korrey
Posted - 2006.07.14 19:11:00 -
[1207 ]
Edited by: korrey on 14/07/2006 19:12:57 Haha! Apoc...ratting... And I hate this...this chars been playing for 8 months and my picture still wont show up on the forums.
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.14 19:13:00 -
[1208 ]
Amarrians dont NPC, they kill their enemies for the loot and isk. ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
Corman GreyFleier
Posted - 2006.07.14 19:35:00 -
[1209 ]
ok, i was gonna post, but i cant think of anything to say, so im just gonna post this for the hell of it.
Entropist
Posted - 2006.07.14 19:58:00 -
[1210 ]
I have to say that I agree with alot of these points more than ever since I started PvPing with Amarr ships. I'd have to agree the most with the movement to buff Khanid ships, however. If done properly this will give Amar the versatility they so desperately need right now.
Mahavy Seth
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.14 20:06:00 -
[1211 ]
Originally by: Corman GreyFleier ok, i was gonna post, but i cant think of anything to say, so im just gonna post this for the hell of it. /Signed
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.14 20:25:00 -
[1212 ]
Originally by: Stamm A tormentor (picked it since I can't remember it being mentioned here before. It's an Amarr mining frigate). Base resists - 60/20/25/35 With 3 T2 hardeners - 60/64/66.25/70.75 - Average resist - 65.25 With 3 T2 EANs - 79.25/58.47/61.07/66.26 - Average resist - 66.26 The T2 hardeners use 44 CPU each. The EANs use 30 CPU. The T2 hardeners use 1.5 cap per second each. The EANs use none. Both require Hull Upgrades to level V. The EAN2 requires compensation skills to level IV to get these results. To level 3 each (which would take very little time, you'd see very similar results. So when people fit EANs (which they do, since they're better than hardeners for PvP) then EM is the worst thing to hit armour with. There's few shield tanking ships (outside of the alliance tournament) and many of those fit an armour tank anyway. Also, the 3rd EAN2 only has (with stacking penalities and lvl 4 in all armor comp skills) only 13.7% resistance. The best damage control has 14% (For 22 mil atm. The 2nd best 13%, and is with 8 mil about in the same area as EAN2) - and is not effected by stacking penalities. So using that instead a 3rd EAN gives you about the same resistances and 56-58% hull resists. Anyone who is using 3 active harderners instead 2 EAN2 + DC on a T1 ship is either A) a moron who has no clue how to fit his ship or b) does not have the skills yet. It *is* already the very best tanking option, changing lasers would therefore have no effect on it's popularity vs 3 active harderners, it cannot get better than best. That being said, IMO the problem is not exactly lasers (although having only EM damage for longrange sucks, all other races have an halfway equal mix, why do not have we?) but more with EAN2. If they would be like invul fields it wouldn't be that bad (higher fitting requirements and capuse than single resistance harderners), but like they are now they are an absolute no-brainer. Less CPU, less cap/sec, bigger effective ship HP boost compared to active harderners. Originally by: Kalaka Jones And whats the best thing to hit 2 out of 5 rats with? EM. Sanshas = EM Bloods = EM Serps = Thermal Angels = Explosive(?) Gurists = Kinetic Fine, and now look at the distribution of these rats. Angels occupy far more space than Sansha or Bloods. Guristas are probably the 2nd in occupied space. And the problem is not really that laser are not the best vs gurista and angels. The problem is that they are very good vs blood and sansha and very bad vs angels and gurista. Both of these rat types have very high EM resists - when I encounter a gruista cruiser with my prophecy on missions which likes to orbit me at 35 km I can activate my beams with radio, turn on the repper and harderners and browse the forums for 5 min. On the Gallente non-droneships you are also locked to two damagetypes, but here you are slightly worse to slightly better than other weapons, meaning you have more or less the same performance vs most pirates.
Stamm
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.14 21:29:00 -
[1213 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Anyone who is using 3 active harderners instead 2 EAN2 + DC on a T1 ship is either A) a moron who has no clue how to fit his ship or b) does not have the skills yet. It *is* already the very best tanking option, changing lasers would therefore have no effect on it's popularity vs 3 active harderners, it cannot get better than best. That's true and I'm well aware of it :) The first thing I put on is a damage control unless I'm fitting plates, if I am, it's the second thing. I just didn't want to complicate things. But the bones of it is that EANs are the no-brainer option. Hardeners just don't cut it for anything but PvE, where you know in advance exactly what you'll be facing. For PvP you want 1) As much resists as you can get without 2) Having big holes. While EANs remain the armour tankers dream, and while armour tankers vastly outnumber shield tankers then the only time Amarr aren't going to face a penalty with their damage type is against idiots, and frankly the game doesn't need to take idiots into account, they're going to die anyway :P Something else in case people didn't spot it. 60% EM resist, hit for 100 damage, you take 40. 80% EM resist, hit for 100 damage, you take 20. EM will do roughly half the damage to armour that other stuff does, assuming EANS/DCs end up with most people having 80/60/60/60 approx. But that IS me overstating it. Most people don't fit 2 EANs and a DC, so it's not often it'll be as bad as that. So please don't think it's the case that Amarr are doing 1/2 damage to armour compared to everyone else all the time. It isn't quite as bad as that. But it is bad, and in my opinion a big weakness for Amarr. As for shields, people just jam on 1 EM hardener, and bang, EM is no bigger a resistance hole than anything else, so there's no real advantage unless the Amarr is doing surprise PvP. The Amarr problems don't stem from Amarr being nerfed (not greatly), generally what they stem from is little boosts here and there, little changes here and there, and the end result is Amarr have been chipped away at, while everything else has advanced a bit. I'm not advocating massive Amarr changes, I don't want to fly an overpowered race. Simply the changes that Nyxus has suggested are enough. It'll give Amarr a little bit of a nudge.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.14 21:53:00 -
[1214 ]
Originally by: Stamm That's true and I'm well aware of it :) The first thing I put on is a damage control unless I'm fitting plates, if I am, it's the second thing. Yes, wasn't referring to you with A) It's just that IMO without the hull resists from the DC an EAN2 setup is not *that* much better. You get basically the same average resists (and effective HP increase) - the saved capuse and lower fitting reqs are nice, but not THAT good. If you PvP in areas where it's not that likely to encounter amarr ships a 3 t2 active setup would then still be somewhat better. If you add 56-58% hull resistance to it, though.... No contest. Non at all. Quote: But that IS me overstating it. Most people don't fit 2 EANs and a DC, so it's not often it'll be as bad as that. So please don't think it's the case that Amarr are doing 1/2 damage to armour compared to everyone else all the time. It isn't quite as bad as that. But it is bad, and in my opinion a big weakness for Amarr. Yes, it really depends on the shipclass. For frigates it's a total nonissue (but there lasers have in exchange other issues). For cruisers partly. Depends if t1 or t2. For BCs it's a problem, although for command ships 1 active for the hole, 1 EAN2 and 1 DC will be better. The main problem is IMO with battleships, since we do not have t2 resistances here and 3 slots for harderners is pretty much standart. Quote: I'm not advocating massive Amarr changes, I don't want to fly an overpowered race. Simply the changes that Nyxus has suggested are enough. It'll give Amarr a little bit of a nudge. Some, at least. Tracking disruptors are really fine, what is making them seem bad is ECM. And +10% armor bonus per lvl on top of 5% resistance is a bit over the top. Technically the resistance bonus is just fine compared to a 25% damage bonus - the problem is that other issues are reducing the damage of the tanking ships even more.
Stamm
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.14 21:59:00 -
[1215 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Some, at least. Tracking disruptors are really fine, what is making them seem bad is ECM. And +10% armor bonus per lvl on top of 5% resistance is a bit over the top. Technically the resistance bonus is just fine compared to a 25% damage bonus - the problem is that other issues are reducing the damage of the tanking ships even more. Well, that's true. But really the tanking bonuses that some Amarr ships get equate to very little in anything but PvE - and even there they aren't that great. The Zealot for example tanks way better than the Sacrilege, and it's supposed to be the ganker :) The 25% bonus to resists only really is useful where you are fitting many resistance modules, because it doesn't have stacking penalties. Other than that it's really not very good, it only equates to an extra EAN. The damage bonus that other ships get on the other hand is very nice, simply because any more than 2 damage mods and you face serious stacking penalties. The third is worthwhile, the 4th is a waste of time and 5th and beyond are poor.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.14 22:15:00 -
[1216 ]
Yes, but where is the difference here? The stacking penalities issue is just the same, be it harderners or damage mods. For PvE +damage is clearly better, faster killing speed = more isk/time. But PvP? If you would have 2 identical ships exept one would have +25% damage and one +25% resistance the ship with the resistance bonus would win. It would need 25% more time to put out the same damage than the other ship, but it would also have 33% more effective HPs.
Lisento Slaven
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.14 22:32:00 -
[1217 ]
Originally by: Aramendel But PvP? If you would have 2 identical ships exept one would have +25% damage and one +25% resistance the ship with the resistance bonus would win. It would need 25% more time to put out the same damage than the other ship, but it would also have 33% more effective HPs. Which is why gank-gangs are awesome....what about 7 ships with +25% damage and 7 ships with +25% resistance. I took this off topic...focus fire ftl =P --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Kalaka Jones
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.15 06:36:00 -
[1218 ]
Edited by: Kalaka Jones on 15/07/2006 06:37:58 Originally by: Stamm Mr Noob Alt. I did say to a greater or lesser extent. And you are correct, the best thing to hit Sansha and Blood Raiders with is EM. And the second best is Thermal. That really suits lasers. On the other hand it suits Ravens too. And it suits EMP. And Gallente don't do too badly either since their weapons do mainly thermal (with kinetic) and their drones can do EM. And the two best NPCing ships are the Apoc and the Geddon? That's just a blatant lie. Yeah, EMP is JUST as good as lasers for sanshas and bloods Saying gallante weapons do "mainly thermal" is like saying that amarr weapons do "mainly thermal" And please name what other ships besides the apoc or geddon I can smuggle into stain, delve, or other southern regions, and npc forever? Obviously the raven owns all NPC-wise, but it needs to be near a station to constantly build more missiles. An apoc or geddon, doesnt.
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.15 07:13:00 -
[1219 ]
Originally by: Kalaka Jones Obviously the raven owns all NPC-wise, but it needs to be near a station to constantly build more missiles. An apoc or geddon, doesnt. The only people that never pick up loot are chinese farmers. And they still use Ravens.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Stephar
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.15 07:28:00 -
[1220 ]
Originally by: Kalaka Jones And please name what other ships besides the apoc or geddon I can smuggle into stain, delve, or other southern regions, and npc forever? Dominix?
Lienzo
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.07.15 07:43:00 -
[1221 ]
Amarr ships prove that highslots can serve as gang support mods even at middling ranges.. like the ones you get when your squad uncloaks at a gate. So the geddon is useful in both fleet action, and in skirmish action. Considering I don't think too highly of tanking, I think I'd happily trade a low on the geddon for the ability to fit another mid, particularly a cap booster or a tracking disruptor/computer. You don't get many mids on non-split highs though, and for good reason. Outside of solo combat, Amarr ships don't tend to rely propulsion mods for their role. An amarr pulse geddon can provide awesome fighterscreen cover for any other battleship 30km away. In the hands of the right pilots, they don't even need tII light drones or fancy precision missiles. They don't even need NOS, but it tends to come standard. Unlike the Blasterthron or the AC tempest, it doesn't function as a solo threat. In a large # of 1v1 battles, it will lose unless it has a raw equipment advantage. I tend to rely on tactical advantages instead of isk & sp advantages.Assault Missile Launcher Improvement
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.15 10:14:00 -
[1222 ]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven Which is why gank-gangs are awesome....what about 7 ships with +25% damage and 7 ships with +25% resistance. I took this off topic...focus fire ftl =P I thought about the same thing but came to the conclusion that it does not matter, the results are the same, be it 1 ship or 100. Look at it: 7 ships doing 100 base dps, with 25% damage 125. 875 dps total. 25% resistance ship only suffers 75% of this: 656.25 effective dps. The 7 ships with the 25% reistance bonus do 7 * 100 dps, aka 700 dps when focus firing.
Tsun Lao
Posted - 2006.07.15 11:06:00 -
[1223 ]
Originally by: Nyxus [list][*]Tanking changes, pushing everyone to passive tanks screwed Amarr. Where everyone used to fit therm/kin/expl hardners and had all resists right about 60%, passive tanking changes makes it so that base resists on a 3 slot tank is 80/60/60/58. This means that amarr took a 50% damage reduction when tanking changed. Do the math if you dont believe me. SOLUTION -Honestly I don't know. ROll back game mechanics to pre RMR, stacking penatly is ****.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.15 11:13:00 -
[1224 ]
Originally by: Sonorra Baki Could someone with some more time than me on their hands, copy the best posts (best suggestions, best supported facts etc) out from this topic, and into a new "summary topic" ? The new topic should be consisting of a bulleted list, with links to the original posts. Ive seen it done before, with the blaster thread i think, and it was applauded by a dev for summarizing all the good points. Yes, can anyone do this please?
Lisento Slaven
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.15 12:07:00 -
[1225 ]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: Sonorra Baki Could someone with some more time than me on their hands, copy the best posts (best suggestions, best supported facts etc) out from this topic, and into a new "summary topic" ? The new topic should be consisting of a bulleted list, with links to the original posts. Ive seen it done before, with the blaster thread i think, and it was applauded by a dev for summarizing all the good points. Yes, can anyone do this please? It's at the bottom of page 40 and beginning of page 41. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Ather Ialeas
Occam's Razor Combine Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
Posted - 2006.07.15 13:00:00 -
[1226 ]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion Originally by: Sonorra Baki Could someone with some more time than me on their hands, copy the best posts (best suggestions, best supported facts etc) out from this topic, and into a new "summary topic" ? The new topic should be consisting of a bulleted list, with links to the original posts. Ive seen it done before, with the blaster thread i think, and it was applauded by a dev for summarizing all the good points. Yes, can anyone do this please? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=364861 There ya have it. I'm now oversaturated by this issue, I guess I'll go get some fresh air or something. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.07.15 14:14:00 -
[1227 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 15/07/2006 14:15:46 Originally by: Aramendel Yes, but where is the difference here? The stacking penalities issue is just the same, be it harderners or damage mods. For PvE +damage is clearly better, faster killing speed = more isk/time. But PvP? If you would have 2 identical ships exept one would have +25% damage and one +25% resistance the ship with the resistance bonus would win. It would need 25% more time to put out the same damage than the other ship, but it would also have 33% more effective HPs. In theory, you are right. But as any good engineer will tell you, what happens in practice can be very different. This is a good example of such a case.Tier 3 cruiser dps. Rax, Ruppie, Maller comparing the first 2 dps ships vs a tanking ship. Here it is plain to see that by the time you add in drones and missiles (ruppie) thier damage output is WAY more than 25% more than a Maller. In fact, they are over twice what a Maller can output at optimal ranges. They also have way more flexibility in damage types due to drones/missiles.Amarr Tanking Problem #1 - 2 EAN + 1 DC + 1 rep = huge tank. Increases to tanking have resulted in better survivability for everyone (good). It also means that you only need 4 slots to have a *really* good tank, even on a cruiser. Most cruisers can fit this easily. The Maller has 200 more armor and a 25% armor resist while the other Tier 3 cruisers can do varied damage types and output twice the dps. Best case scenario is that the Maller only needs 1 EANII+1 DC+ 1 rep. It frees up a low slot that we already had extra of anyway, that are less valuable for pvp. If this could somehow free up a midslot that we have a dearth of it would be more useful.Amarr Tanking Problem #2 - You can focus fire, you can't focus tanking. This isn't just an Amarr problem, it's every ship that is "defensive" in nature including the Moa. Tanking bonuses need to be stronger than damage bonuses because they are not additive in the same way the damage is. The trick is to not make a defensive ship able to tank indefinitely, but rather just give them longer survivability. Granting all tanking ships a bonus to Armor/Shield amount does this admirably. Maller/Prophecy/Apoc/Moa really could use this bonus so that they see more use in combat, as right now they are decidedly sub-par. At 10% to armor amount per level the Maller would have roughly twice the armor as a Rax, while the Rax has twice the damage output and more flexibility and movement bonus on the battlefield. That seems about right. Maybe 5% per level would be enough, but I think not. Tanking needs boosting to a greater amount than damage because of it's very nature.Amarr Tanking Problem #3 FITTING IS AN ISSUE!!!! If you slap the equivalent weapons on each of the Tier 3 cruisers you see that they have approximately the same amount of grid/cpu left over for fittings. This is a problem for tanking ships, as tanking mods take up a LOT of grid/cpu. What effectively happens is that all 3 ships have about the same defensive capabilities, because they have the same amount of leftover fittings. In order for a defensive ship to gain significant tanking advantage over it's dps counterparts it must drop it's weapons to a lower tier and put fitting mods on. This lowers the already lesser damage output of the tanking ship rendering it even less effective. Tanking boats need more cpu/grid in general than thier dps counterparts simply because fitting a significant tank is so difficult, and thier dps is already significantly lower with equivalent weapons mounted. It's true that most of these issues are more "tanking" issues than Amarr specific issues, but plague Amarr more than most simply because we have more "tanking/defensive" ships than any other race. And tbfh tanking specific ships of all races still need some love. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.15 14:41:00 -
[1228 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Here it is plain to see that by the time you add in drones and missiles (ruppie) thier damage output is WAY more than 25% more than a Maller. In fact, they are over twice what a Maller can output at optimal ranges. Yes, yes, I know. I said as much already at the end of post #1229 . The core issue is that viewed on it's own the 25% resistance bonus is not weaker than the 25% damage bonus. You could give the maller a 25% damage bonus and the thorax and ruptore a 25% armor resistance bonus. The maller would still be weaker than those 2. This is because the problems are not caused by the resistance instead a damagebonus, but by other issues, Amarr Tanking Problem #1 & #3 and the general lack of flexibility of amarr ships. Quote: Amarr Tanking Problem #2 - You can focus fire, you can't focus tanking. But you can! I was about to write something similar 1-2 days ago, something like "the resistance bonus is about as strong as damage for 1v1, but in groups it gets useless". But then I actually thought about it and IMO this is simply not true. Gank >> tank, yes. But this is for fittings, not ship boni. A ship with a 25% resistance bonus does not care if 1 or 10 ships fire on it, it takes always 25% less damage. See post #1237 . If you see a hole in the logic there I would be happy if you could show it to me.
Stamm
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.16 01:56:00 -
[1229 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nyxus Here it is plain to see that by the time you add in drones and missiles (ruppie) thier damage output is WAY more than 25% more than a Maller. In fact, they are over twice what a Maller can output at optimal ranges. Yes, yes, I know. I said as much already at the end of post #1229 . The core issue is that viewed on it's own the 25% resistance bonus is not weaker than the 25% damage bonus. You could give the maller a 25% damage bonus and the thorax and ruptore a 25% armor resistance bonus. The maller would still be weaker than those 2. This is because the problems are not caused by the resistance instead a damagebonus, but by other issues, Amarr Tanking Problem #1 & #3 and the general lack of flexibility of amarr ships. Quote: Amarr Tanking Problem #2 - You can focus fire, you can't focus tanking. But you can! I was about to write something similar 1-2 days ago, something like "the resistance bonus is about as strong as damage for 1v1, but in groups it gets useless". But then I actually thought about it and IMO this is simply not true. Gank >> tank, yes. But this is for fittings, not ship boni. A ship with a 25% resistance bonus does not care if 1 or 10 ships fire on it, it takes always 25% less damage. See post #1237 . If you see a hole in the logic there I would be happy if you could show it to me. You're not quite wrong there Aramendel. But I think what's being missed is this. The focus in Eve is on damage. It's not possible for a gang to focus their tanking (outside of the extremely controlled alliance tournament). While the focus is on damage, Amarr lose out because their bonuses are aimed towards tanking. Effectively all the bonuses do is give you an extra damage/tanking mod tbat ignore stacking penalties. With damage you have a choice of 1 mod. With tanking you can go for cap, repping or resists. The stacking isn't a huge issue because you have a choice of 3 different areas, max out one and you can focus on the other, and when there are 3 variables to account for, you're just not going to max out any of them without T2 resists and at least 6 dedicated slots. Where the Amarr bonus really shines is where ships are trying to get their resists higher but hit the stacking penalty wall. And if a ship wants to go that defensive.... just fit stabs.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.16 09:50:00 -
[1230 ]
Afraid you miss the point. I am aware that gank > tank. But, as said, this is IMO for modules, not the ship boni. For the 25% resistance boni it is totally insignificant if you have the strongest tank you can fit or none at all. You will recieve 25% less damage than without it either way. You have the full benefit from it with a 100% gank and a 100% tank outfit. You can make an higher maximum dps outfit with a damage bonus and an higher maximum tank outfit with the 25% bonus, but for a max dps + damage bonus outfit <-> a max dps + tank bonus outfit the damage bonus and tank bonus will simply cancel each other out. At least I thought so. They don't, since I forgot something: The tank bonus applies only on your shield or armor, which are usually not more than 50% of your total hitpoints (without taking resistances into account). The damage bonus gets applied on all damage you do vs shield, armor and structure. So it is weaker than the damage bonus. +5% max armor/shield in addition to it could be nice, but could make passive shield tanks too strong. Perhaps adding 5% structure resistance in addition to 5% shield or armor?
Stamm
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.16 14:03:00 -
[1231 ]
Edited by: Stamm on 16/07/2006 14:04:15 Originally by: Aramendel Afraid you miss the point. I am aware that gank > tank. But, as said, this is IMO for modules, not the ship boni. For the 25% resistance boni it is totally insignificant if you have the strongest tank you can fit or none at all. You will recieve 25% less damage than without it either way. You have the full benefit from it with a 100% gank and a 100% tank outfit. You can make an higher maximum dps outfit with a damage bonus and an higher maximum tank outfit with the 25% bonus, but for a max dps + damage bonus outfit <-> a max dps + tank bonus outfit the damage bonus and tank bonus will simply cancel each other out. At least I thought so. They don't, since I forgot something: The tank bonus applies only on your shield or armor, which are usually not more than 50% of your total hitpoints (without taking resistances into account). The damage bonus gets applied on all damage you do vs shield, armor and structure. So it is weaker than the damage bonus. +5% max armor/shield in addition to it could be nice, but could make passive shield tanks too strong. Perhaps adding 5% structure resistance in addition to 5% shield or armor? Edit : Just to be clear. You are right about the damage bonus v armour bonus. I was wrong. If I take 25% less damage, then effecitvely everybody shooting me is doing 25% less damage. Perhaps 5% to all resists is what's required. It'll do the same as 5% damage (I see what you mean now, difficult to get my head around). Increasing it to 6 or 7% to armour resists would be fine for PvP, but would be a bit OTT for NPCing, where it's a more controlled environment, and virtually all damage you take is to armour. 5% to all resists would be flat 5% damage reduction, which directly compares to 5% damage increase. I don't think there's any problem with passive shield tanks and the 5% bonus though. I can't really see any. The only thing I can see people having a problem with is something that helps Amarr (for example) shield tank more effectively, but that's not really a big issue since the only ships that can really pull it off are the Khanid ones, and they do have very good shield technology. So I think I'm settled, 5% to all resists is a bonus of equal power to 5% damage bonus.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.16 14:59:00 -
[1232 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/07/2006 15:00:39 Originally by: Stamm If I take 25% less damage, then effecitvely everybody shooting me is doing 25% less damage. Perhaps 5% to all resists is what's required. It'll do the same as 5% damage More actually. It's just the same as +damage vs +ROF. A 25% resistance bonus is reducing the enemies dps by 33%. So +5% resistance to all would be noticeably stronger than +5% damage. You could of cource argue that this would be balanced since +5% damage is way better for NPCing, but I can already see people shouting the "The game is balanced for PvP" mantra. Also, to be honest, amarr ships with a resistance bonus to shields and caldari ships with one for armor just feels wrong. Because of this I was suggesting that it should for amarr and caldari be applied on structure as well but not on shield or armor. Optionally perhaps boost in addition the resistance bonus to 6%, too. This should make the damage inflicted on the whole ship from +damage and damage avoided on the whole ship from +resistance about equal. Quote: I don't think there's any problem with passive shield tanks and the 5% bonus though. I can't really see any. I was referring there to Nyxus suggestion to change the +5% resistance to +5% resistance and +10% armor/shield hp. Which would be over the top, I think we can agree on that now. A 5% resistance, 5% armor/shield hp would perhaps be balanced, but there this +5% shield hp would not only increase the maximum hp, but also boost the shield regeneration. meaning it would also increase the max dps passive shield tanks can tank continuously.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.07.16 15:54:00 -
[1233 ]
Originally by: aramendel Gank >> tank, yes. But this is for fittings, not ship boni. A ship with a 25% resistance bonus does not care if 1 or 10 ships fire on it, it takes always 25% less damage. See post #1237. If you see a hole in the logic there I would be happy if you could show it to me. Look at it: 7 ships doing 100 base dps, with 25% damage 125. 875 dps total. 25% resistance ship only suffers 75% of this: 656.25 effective dps. The 7 ships with the 25% reistance bonus do 7 * 100 dps, aka 700 dps when focus firing. This is a good point. Let me see if I can explain why I think it's fallacious to say that they are equal bonuses. First of all, there is the sheer additive linear power of dps. No one can dispute that we can focus fire. Let's take the example of 7 thorax shooting 1 maller at optimal. Looking back at the previous charts let's just say that each does about 350dps for ease of computation (a bit less than Ions). 7 Rax x 350dps = 2450dps. Now, the Maller is using it's tanking resist bonus of 25% damage reduction and it's true that effective dps on the armor (but not shields and such as you appropriately pointed out) is only 1837dps. As is plain to see, 7 Mallers can not add thier resistance bonus together in like we can damage. It will always be; [Total attackers additive dps] - [single ships resistance]= Effective dps If the 25% resistance worked like a gang module or added the way dps does you would see medium sized gangs with 90%+ resists even with the stacking penalty which is why it doesn't work that way. A single defensive bonus is needs to be relatively more powerful than an offensive one simply becuase of it's always total dps vs single ship defenses. 7 bonuses vs 1 bonus. This reasoning also ignores 2 very basic eve facts. Stacking defenses has diminishing returns and fitting constrains active reppers. Even when considering 1 ship stacking resistance mods, the resistance mods have diminishing returns (ie, 60% base hardening +50% hardener = 80% base hardening rather than 110%). Fitting constrains defensive reppers so we don't see Apocs with 8 reppers (on most ships fitting 2 reppers results in fairly heavy compromise). Focused dps does not have diminishing returns, and each ship has a "max dps" point beyond which it ceases to function (blows up). In the first example 350dps x 7 raxes = 2450dps. It's linear. In addition, the Maller has 1500 armor and 1k shield with skills. Even assuming resists are constant across both the Maller lasts 2 roughly 2 seconds against that firepower. Dps bonuses on each ship allow you to reach the "point of no return" or explosion point faster because they add linearly without penalty. Your math is correct, however it ignores some of the realities of eve combat (max damage threshold, additive dps vs diminishing tanking) and oversimplifies the issue. You have a premise that while true does not support the conclusion because it is excluding other possibilities and does not necessarily follow from the premises. If [1 + 1 = 2] then [defensive and offensive bonuses are balanced] [1 + 1 = 2] therefore [defensive and offensive bonuses are balanced] While the form is correct, the premises and thier conclusion are not. Hope I have made myself clear, it was a good question and I had to really think about why the arguement was invalid from a logical perspective. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.16 16:13:00 -
[1234 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/07/2006 16:13:25 Originally by: Nyxus Now, the Maller is using it's tanking resist bonus of 25% damage reduction and it's true that effective dps on the armor (but not shields and such as you appropriately pointed out) is only 1837dps. As is plain to see, 7 Mallers can not add thier resistance bonus together in like we can damage. You still miss the point. They do not need to "add their resistance boni". Again: the 25% resistance on a maller does not care at all if the damage comes from a single or 10 sources. one 100dps source + 25% damage bonus vs one 25% resistance target: 125 * 0.75 = 93.75 dps two 100dps sources + 25% damage each vs one 25% resistance target: (125 + 125) * 0.75 = 187.5 dps or 125 * 075 + 125 * 0.75 = 93.75 + 93.75 = 187.5 dps The 25% resistance is working on every single damage source seperately without diminishing itself in any way. Quote: Stacking defenses has diminishing returns No, they do not. Without stacking penalities (which do not effect +resistance or +damage boni from ships) 2 50% harderners have *identical* returns. With 0 base resistance and a 100 damage shot the first will reduce it to 50 damage (aka halving the damage aka reducing it by 50%). The 2nd will reduce these 50 damage to 25 damage (aka halving the damage aka reducing it by 50%). They work *excactly* the same as damage mods.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.07.16 22:58:00 -
[1235 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 16/07/2006 23:04:41 Aramendel - There are 2 different arguments in your previous post. In the first you are assuming that I am disagreeing with your math. I am not. I am disagreeing with the conclusions you are drawing from it; ie that tanking bonuses and resistance bonuses are equal. By only comparing the dps while ignoring the greater scope of offense vs defense and the way they work in Eve you have artificially limited the argument and forced an illogical conclusion. In the second we are discussing the technical way things are calculated. Let's look at the second part first, as the issue is strictly quantifiable and more easily examined. Originally by: Aramendel Without stacking penalities (which do not effect +resistance or +damage boni from ships) 2 50% harderners have *identical* returns. With 0 base resistance and a 100 damage shot the first will reduce it to 50 damage (aka halving the damage aka reducing it by 50%). The 2nd will reduce these 50 damage to 25 damage (aka halving the damage aka reducing it by 50%). Here you have disproven your own proposition. You claim that 2 50% hardners have *identical* returns, but then you show that they do not. They both have an identical effect, 50% damage reduction. That is true. But the returns are actually diminishing. Using your example of 100, the first hardner reduces damage by 50 damage. The second by only 25. While they both have the same effect, the returns are *VERY* different. In other words, 50% of a bigger number is larger than 50% of a smaller, even if it is the same effect, namely 50% damage reduction. Let's bring this back to an Eve example, and how because of the way tanking and defense is set up in Eve, defensive ships are at a disadvantage. I will use the Maller and Rax since they are most easily compared. However the same case could be made for the Moa. I will use 3 EANII's because it's also easier than 2EANII's and 1 DC although the effect is approximately the same. Resistance numbers from quickfit. Rax with 3 ean II's - 79.87/54.7/67.29/67.29 Maller with 3 ean II's - 84.9/69.8/71.69/75.46 So if we consider 100 points of EM damage coming in (worst case); Rax takes 100 - 79.87 resisted = 20.13 damage Maller takes 100 - 84.9 resisted = 15.1 damage And if we consider 100 points of Expl damage coming in (best case); Rax takes 100 - 54.7 resisted = 45.3 damage Maller takes 100 - 69.8 resisted = 30.2 damage. So worst case scenario the tanking boat takes 5.03 less damage . Best case is 15.1 less damage . And in exchange the DPS boat does over twice the damage output. This is why tanking bonuses are fairly negligible and need a boost. Now coming back to your original statement. Originally by: Aramendel (If) The 25% resistance is working on every single damage source seperately Originally by: Aramendel (Then)the core issue is that viewed on it's own the 25% resistance bonus is not weaker than the 25% damage bonus I have no disagreement on the atecedent proposition, nor the math behind it. The resist bonus does work on every single damage source. I disagree with the conclusion you have drawn. The antecedent is not sufficient conditions to the consequent. Looking at the bonuses themselves and the raw dps numbers does not mean that they are balanced. There is more to balance than just raw dps numbers. It's also fitting, cpu/grid, slot layout, damage types, how stacking penalties effect the outcomes, optimal and falloff. You have attempted to reduce a complex problem to 1 single dps item to a strawman argument. It's just not that simple. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.07.16 23:03:00 -
[1236 ]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 16/07/2006 23:05:17 Comparing bonuses isn't the most straigthforward way to assess ship balance though (It sounds easy to propose an overpowered ship with crap bonuses...). edit: jsut to clarify: were the thorax and maller "balanced" before bonuses, you'd have a point comparing the effect of the bonuses; obviously your standpoint is that they aren't any more "balanced" with or without the skill bonuses so the discussion doesn't have to stay at the level of the bonuses, IMO. Whereas I agree about tanking being rather pointless in many circumstances, I doubt it's an amarr specific issue and as such I think that it should be improved on a "larger level". NB.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.07.16 23:08:00 -
[1237 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 16/07/2006 23:10:19 Originally by: Naughty Boy Edited by: Naughty Boy on 16/07/2006 23:05:17 Comparing bonuses isn't the most straigthforward way to assess ship balance though (It sounds easy to propose an overpowered ship with crap bonuses...). edit: jsut to clarify: were the thorax and maller "balanced" before bonuses, you'd have a point comparing the effect of the bonuses; obviously your standpoint is that they aren't any more "balanced" with or without the skill bonuses so the discussion doesn't have to stay at the level of the bonuses, IMO. Whereas I agree about tanking being rather pointless in many circumstances, I doubt it's an amarr specific issue and as such I think that it should be improved on a "larger level". NB. To be honest it is primarily an Amarr issue since we have more "tanking" boats than anyone else in the game. It's plain to see even the developers have struggled with it. We see tanking boats with + resists, - repper duration, and + cap amount as they have tried to figure out what bonus acutally gives a better life expectancy vs a dps only boat. The only one that I consider truly good is the Brutix +7.5 to armor amount per level. In my post above I showed why +resist bonuses are fairly negligible in the overall view. It's why I firmly believe resist/tanking boats should have a + to armor/shield per level in addition to thier resist bonus. All in all, a Rax or Ruppie is superior a Maller or Moa untill something is changed. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.07.16 23:21:00 -
[1238 ]
Originally by: Nyxus It's plain to see even the developers have struggled with it. We see tanking boats with + resists, - repper duration, and + cap amount as they have tried to figure out what bonus acutally gives a better life expectancy vs a dps only boat. The only one that I consider truly good is the Brutix +7.5 to armor amount per level. With max skills, that's a 37.5% armor rep effectiveness bonus, whereas a +5% resist bonus is a (1/.75-1)=33.4% armor rep effectiveness bonus. On the other hand, the +5% resist bonus is also a (1/.75-1)=33.4% effective armor hp bonus. As far as bonuses go, that part is fairly balanced, with the resistance bonus being better in high damage/short fights and the repair amount being better in low damage/long fights. NB.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.07.17 03:56:00 -
[1239 ]
Originally by: NB With max skills, that's a 37.5% armor rep effectiveness bonus, whereas a +5% resist bonus is a (1/.75-1)=33.4% armor rep effectiveness bonus. On the other hand, the +5% resist bonus is also a (1/.75-1)=33.4% effective armor hp bonus. As far as bonuses go, that part is fairly balanced, with the resistance bonus being better in high damage/short fights and the repair amount being better in low damage/long fights. True. The one reason I like the +7.5 bonus more than the others is simple really. Anyone with an EANII and a spare slot can get the equivalent bonus of the Maller/Proph @ Cruiser 5 (a significant investment). With 3 slots you can get so close to tanked Maller/Proph resists that the difference is pretty much negligible, and doesn't gimp any armor tanking setup. In fact, it's standard practice. There are no mods that can duplicate the +7.5% bonus to repping. Nothing even close. That in and of itself is a fairly powerful bonus/niche. Originally by: NB (a bonus to armor/shield amount) Could be good, but I'm not so sure it would work fine with how the bonus would apply to extenders and plates. Also, if the bonus is also carried to the HAC, passive tanked eagles could be interesting I think it would just apply to the base amount of the ship, in the same way that mechanic skills do now. Extenders/plates would just be added on top of that. There are some specific mods that add a % of your armor/shields but at that point you would be trading hardening for total hp and don't see it as an issue. There are some apoc setups now that are based on all plates and a couple of %'s armor mods at the end as they give a greater return than a plate, but they are not considered overpowered in any way as it's just a buffer, even when reaching rediculous armor amounts like 25k+ . But as carriers/dreads have shown, even 30K+ armor is a joke with even a handfull of BS focus firing. The biggest danger to boosting tanking is the "infinite rep/boost" issue. Added armor just adds "time till you die" rather than "you can't kill me, evah!". Nyxus PS - The Eagle needs some love anyway. I think only Pottsey can tell us if it would be uber. I wouldn't mind the idea of +5% or 10% armor/shields per level on all "defensive" ships with a resist bonus - both Amarr and Caldari. Goodness knows we don't see them much in pvp now. Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.17 05:15:00 -
[1240 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 17/07/2006 05:19:11 Originally by: Nyxus Here you have disproven your own proposition. You claim that 2 50% hardners have *identical* returns, but then you show that they do not. They both have an identical effect, 50% damage reduction. That is true. But the returns are actually diminishing. Using your example of 100, the first hardner reduces damage by 50 damage. The second by only 25. While they both have the same effect, the returns are *VERY* different. In other words, 50% of a bigger number is larger than 50% of a smaller, even if it is the same effect, namely 50% damage reduction. Only the percentual return matters. If you have 100 base dps a 25% damage bonus gives you +25 dps, fit a damagemod and get 120 base dps and it suddenly gives you +30 dps. Or, even better, take 2 25% ROF boni and a 10 base ROF. The first gives you 2.5 sec boni, the 2nd only "diminishing returns" with only 1.88 sec. So, what does in general increase your dps more? A 5% damage bonus with no "diminishing returns" or a 5% ROF bonus with "diminishing returns"? Any additional mod which reduces a number gives you a smaller effect then the first when you stack them, any additional mod which increases it gives you a bigger effect then the first. But the raw numbers are utterly meaningless, the percentual return matters. Just looking at the numbers produces milkmaids calculation. For example. 100 dps. 2 + 25% damage mods. 2 20% resistance mods. 156 dps, 36% resistance. 156 dps * 0.64 = 100 dps.If +resistance has diminishing returns and damage hasn't why do they cancel each other out? Quote: So worst case scenario the tanking boat takes 5.03 less damage . Best case is 15.1 less damage . And in exchange the DPS boat does over twice the damage output. This is why tanking bonuses are fairly negligible and need a boost. For the xth time - this is not the fault of the resistance vs damagebonus. You can switch the ship boni and give the thorax a 25% resistance mod and the maller a 25% damage mod and the maller will still be weaker. The problems are elsewhere, you yourself pointed out 2 of them. Quote: It's also fitting, cpu/grid, slot layout, damage types, how stacking penalties effect the outcomes, optimal and falloff. You have attempted to reduce a complex problem to 1 single dps item to a strawman argument. That is the whole POINT of it. THAT is causing the problems, NOT the shipbonus. You are trying to cure a person which is limping because of uneven legs by increasing the length of the LONGER leg.
Anasur
Posted - 2006.07.17 05:19:00 -
[1241 ]
While it is true that laser seem to suffer against armor tanks, you do quite well against shield tanks. Its a common complaint that Caldari players make up half the game, so you do well against all of them when shield tanking:) Even with a Active EM 2, most Caldari still have EM and Thermal as their weakest links. I fly caldari, and amarr annoy the hell out of me as they hit those weak spots.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.17 05:27:00 -
[1242 ]
In PvP you have far more armor than shieldtanks. What is more likely, finding a scorp with a shieldtank or ecm? Even ravens quite often use ecm in the meds and an armortank in PvP. The only place where you get a lot of shieldtanks is PvE. But you really do not need an edge vs a PvE fitted ships if you are PvP fitted.
south24
Rage of Angels
Posted - 2006.07.17 18:21:00 -
[1243 ]
Edited by: south24 on 17/07/2006 18:21:34 still no word of change Originally by: Aramendel In PvP you have far more armor than shieldtanks. What is more likely, finding a scorp with a shieldtank or ecm? quoted for stupidity
El Ponja
Posted - 2006.07.18 06:13:00 -
[1244 ]
bump, and we need a devs answer to this topic ffs
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.18 09:21:00 -
[1245 ]
Originally by: south24 quoted for stupidity Quoted for being an excellent example to show that any fool can say "this is wrong". If you do not give any arguments to support your concusion you are only wasting space.
Mahavy Seth
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.18 09:35:00 -
[1246 ]
Aramendel is right cause I like chinese girls
Xendie
Posted - 2006.07.19 02:20:00 -
[1247 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Aramendel is right cause I like chinese girls lol and can we let this thread die now? it is obvious that Tuxford or CCP wont do anything to help the amarr players anyway. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Mahavy Seth
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.19 09:19:00 -
[1248 ]
Amarr do not need tuxford help. We have God!
Mr Peanut
The New Empire R i s e
Posted - 2006.07.19 16:43:00 -
[1249 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Amarr do not need tuxford help. We have God! QFT. Btw, just because the devs haven't done anything yet doesn't mean that they won't. Don't give up hope. Continue on to page 44!
KALEN ACHURAN
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.19 17:35:00 -
[1250 ]
Yeahhh onto page 44...Amarr is broken (might even fall into "broke-dic" catagory) Just to explain how bad...I just sold my original character to make a new caldari...yeah falling in with all 77% of em... TUX fix amarr or my raven will pop yours... *please let a covert ops ship use a covert ops cloaking device...It just makes sense * *Bombers need baby love too * -Forum Fighter at work ; player at night
Mahavy Seth
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.20 07:51:00 -
[1251 ]
Add pure thermal crystals may be... and up!
Anasur
Posted - 2006.07.20 08:51:00 -
[1252 ]
Ok, how about they switch all the thermal Amarr do to explosive, that make you happy? You get the nice EM hits against shields, and the other half works well against armor. Thermal is overhit anyways, since hybrids hit it, which 2 of the 4 races use. Not to mention several of the projectiles hit thermal. Coincidentally, this would make my shield tanks more resistant to laser fire:)
cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN
mUfFiN fAcToRy
Posted - 2006.07.21 03:13:00 -
[1253 ]
Everyone buys an apoc in the end just cause its the best mining BS, :D Dont give em explosive crystals just more Em and thermal damage to the current. Better yet just leave it Be :D
MacQueen
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.21 06:47:00 -
[1254 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Amarr do not need tuxford help. We have God! LOL Why our Emperor dont have a clone ?? He got assasinated. If not, he may give order to fix up Amarr ships. Ah, well, it's just another reason why Amarr is going down, we lost our Emperor !!! ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Shaikar
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.21 07:59:00 -
[1255 ]
Our Emperors are dynamic, hands on, out and about chaps, or would be if they could avoid dying so often. They don't live in a pod or in other specialised medical surroundings, so cloning (and taking ther mind with it) wouldn't work.
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.07.21 13:28:00 -
[1256 ]
Edited by: Kardim on 21/07/2006 13:29:24 actually there was a story about an emperor that live far beyond his years by cloning, so the equipment may not need to be big or too specialized. he is the emperor so he coud have the equipment shrunk down (: anyways, we still need to stay on the front page. ps. ccp just cause u like the way our ships look doesnt mean they are balanced, we like the way the amarr ships look too, which is probobly the only reason a few of us still fly these pos's. (:
El Ponja
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.21 23:35:00 -
[1257 ]
lets make this post kinda like a sticky, so keep bumping bump Summarized index thread for "Amarr" http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=344179 Amarr[/
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.22 00:03:00 -
[1258 ]
Amarr players still have the turrets with the most tracking, and their tanking ships with resist bonuses still have the best resistances. BUT by a much lower margin than it was before everybod yot to use damage-mods, 80% EM tanks. Electronic Warfare (of any kind), always the weak-side of amarr due to mid-slots, is now reducing most of their ships to the role of long range support. Every race has its t2 pwn-mobiles, even amarr, but its symptomatic that there is NO t1 pwn mobile for amarr atm. Amarr needs a decent t1 solo pwn mobile like the Domi,Raven,Rax and Stabber are. Lastly, amarrian players should have a decent t1 ratting ship, their two BS are easily the worst NPCing ships in the game, thanks to their damage output eing restricted. Its just frustrating to lock amarrian players in versatiliy so much more than the other races, but then level their advantages by giving everybody tank, damagemods, ecm and so on. The point is, amarr is not distinguished anymore. They dont have anything that is notorious. They are mediocre, they are boring. Boring gameplay costs lifes. ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
Devoras2
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.22 01:40:00 -
[1259 ]
Holy crap! Im gone for a 3 week vacation and 43 pages already? Whats wrong? And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Brother Tycho
Shadows of the Dead Knights Of the Southerncross
Posted - 2006.07.22 03:05:00 -
[1260 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 Amarr players still have the turrets with the most tracking, and their tanking ships with resist bonuses still have the best resistances. BUT by a much lower margin than it was before everybod yot to use damage-mods, 80% EM tanks. Electronic Warfare (of any kind), always the weak-side of amarr due to mid-slots, is now reducing most of their ships to the role of long range support. Every race has its t2 pwn-mobiles, even amarr, but its symptomatic that there is NO t1 pwn mobile for amarr atm. Amarr needs a decent t1 solo pwn mobile like the Domi,Raven,Rax and Stabber are. Lastly, amarrian players should have a decent t1 ratting ship, their two BS are easily the worst NPCing ships in the game, thanks to their damage output eing restricted. Its just frustrating to lock amarrian players in versatiliy so much more than the other races, but then level their advantages by giving everybody tank, damagemods, ecm and so on. The point is, amarr is not distinguished anymore. They dont have anything that is notorious. They are mediocre, they are boring. Boring gameplay costs lifes. we do kinda get a t1 solo pwn moble in the arbi but the dmg comes from drones so we get around the laser dmg type issues with the new abbadon takeing the role of our major fleet BS i would like to see the apoc changed to a 8/5/6 layout with the option to fit 4 turrets and 4 launchers the bonuses could be changed to -10% large laser cap use and 5% missle rate of fire per lvl i feel this would give us a more usefull teir 2 for missions and ratting. -------------[B«+tHd« T¦¦H+]------------- åå Spreading the good word since beta åå
Lisento Slaven
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.22 03:18:00 -
[1261 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 Lastly, amarrian players should have a decent t1 ratting ship, their two BS are easily the worst NPCing ships in the game, thanks to their damage output eing restricted. Its just frustrating to lock amarrian players in versatiliy so much more than the other races, but then level their advantages by giving everybody tank, damagemods, ecm and so on. Since when does the Apoc suck for ratting? I can do most level 4's solo in my apoc and I only really have lots of trouble with NPC's like Angel Cartel...belt ratting would be easier than lvl 4 mission running... As far as I'm concerned, Raven and Apocalypse are the best NPCing ships in the game. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Nebuli
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.22 03:28:00 -
[1262 ]
To the people who want changes to laser damage due to people using adaptive nanos thus making EM resists high, how out of balance would this be when attacking a ship that isnt using adaptive nanos? CEO - Art of War
Anasur
Posted - 2006.07.22 05:13:00 -
[1263 ]
I think the problem is not just that lasers suck against armor tanks, which have extra high EM resists thanks to the current EANII setup, but the nature of shield resists. Given the GIANT hole in resists that EM represents in a shield, much of the time when pvping someone carries a specific EM hardener. In many of my pvp setups my EM resistance is actually my second highest, although not by much, due to that specific hardener. So lasers are by no means the I win button against shield tanks. I still think switching lasers from Em/Thermal to EM/Explosive would work well. You would lose some of your effectiveness against shield tanks, but still be an effective weapon. And it would make your weapons actually somewhat dangerous to armor tankers.
Josiah Bartlet
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.07.22 05:54:00 -
[1264 ]
I'll add my 2isk worth. I think the way ECM is so tragicaly messed up is hurting amarr more than anyone else. Solo'ing in most amarr ships (recons not included) is pretty impossible. Last few weeks i have ran into ECM fitted zelots and deimoses. Think about it... --- SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.22 09:05:00 -
[1265 ]
Originally by: MacQueen Why our Emperor dont have a clone ?? He got assasinated. If not, he may give order to fix up Amarr ships. Ah, well, it's just another reason why Amarr is going down, we lost our Emperor !!! Our Emperors dont use clone because they are divine. They only use implants that helps them live longer.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.22 09:07:00 -
[1266 ]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven Since when does the Apoc suck for ratting? NPC Geddon> NPC Apoc
MacQueen
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.23 07:15:00 -
[1267 ]
Originally by: Devoras2 Holy crap! Im gone for a 3 week vacation and 43 pages already? Whats wrong? LOL :) The numbers of pages did not say anything so far. Looking like we're missing something. Or, we're just doing it at the wrong time... ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Dammar
Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.23 08:46:00 -
[1268 ]
Well, if nothing gets fixed/tweaked/buffed/whatever this thread does make a nice final nail in the coffin. Can't think of a bigger red flag for someone starting out really. However, on the plus side, our ships should continue to be half the price of everyone elses.
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.23 09:54:00 -
[1269 ]
Originally by: Dammar Well, if nothing gets fixed/tweaked/buffed/whatever this thread does make a nice final nail in the coffin. Can't think of a bigger red flag for someone starting out really. Just to proof the point...I've actually stopped playing with this character (does that make this char actually an alt? ) and started a Caldari character a while ago. On day 1 I was one-volleying rats I couldn't kill in three volleys with my Amarr newb character a way back ago just feels...wrong. Oh well, at least I'm now benefiting from it. I'm just disgruntled by the fact that I spent 8 months to an Amarr character which in the end sucks while I could've picked another race that actually is useful through the whole newbie to veteran progression (read: from frigs to cruisers to battlecruisers to bs to capitals). So yea, thanks CCP for wasting my time. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Shugo Kazuma
Posted - 2006.07.23 17:52:00 -
[1270 ]
Wouldn't it have been easier to cross train? If you've invested 8 months of skilling into a character, surely at least some of those skills overlap with what you'd have to relearn by starting a new caldari character (or did you just want that caldari look... or stats).
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.23 18:00:00 -
[1271 ]
I sold my raven specialised caldari lv4 mission runner alt last year.....damn I regret it.
Nidhoggur
Posted - 2006.07.23 18:01:00 -
[1272 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Just to proof the point...I've actually stopped playing with this character (does that make this char actually an alt? ) and started a Caldari character a while ago. On day 1 I was one-volleying rats I couldn't kill in three volleys with my Amarr newb character a way back ago just feels...wrong. Has it occurred to you that the Standard Missile Launcher has a ROF of 15 seconds, while the slowest of the Amarrian lasers (Every single other Amarr laser is faster...) has a ROF of 4 seconds, allowing you to get off 3.75 volleys for the time it takes to fire one missile? I thought not...
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.23 18:18:00 -
[1273 ]
Edited by: Ather Ialeas on 23/07/2006 18:19:53 Originally by: Shugo Kazuma Wouldn't it have been easier to cross train? If you've invested 8 months of skilling into a character, surely at least some of those skills overlap with what you'd have to relearn by starting a new caldari character (or did you just want that caldari look... or stats). Well since I have purely lasers, Amarr ships and armor tanking related skills on this account (plus ofc learning skills and med barge ) I came to conclusion that I'm better off training a completely new Caldari character despite the learning skills because I would have to train shield tanking/missile stuff completely anyway. Plus I did get quite nice attributes from that Achura Monk. Originally by: Nidhoggur Has it occurred to you that the Standard Missile Launcher has a ROF of 15 seconds, while the slowest of the Amarrian lasers (Every single other Amarr laser is faster...) has a ROF of 4 seconds, allowing you to get off 3.75 volleys for the time it takes to fire one missile? I thought not... EM and thermal really limit the effectivity of those volleys. Having all FOUR damage types as a choice is simply wtfoverpowered but helps a lot. While as an Amarr I can kick Sansha ass easily, Angels will eat me alive way too easily. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Tsun Lao
Posted - 2006.07.23 19:58:00 -
[1274 ]
Originally by: Nidhoggur I thought Not nearly enough.
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.24 14:59:00 -
[1275 ]
I see Tux is back responding to threads. Can we get a response here tux? I mean 43 pages should deserve at least a little tidbit from a dev. I apologize for all those that yell & scream at you, as well as those that insult you. But I honestly appreciate what you guys do & am asking nicely. Please Tux, tell us the future of the amarr. P.S. I'm also curious about a Battlecruiser fix on agility/sig radius. Thank you very much Tux.
Nidhoggur
Posted - 2006.07.24 17:24:00 -
[1276 ]
Originally by: Tsun Lao Originally by: Nidhoggur I thought I am an idiot, incapable of any kind of reasonable argument. Misquoting is fun. Seriously, what's your angle with this post? How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
Mahavy Seth
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.24 18:56:00 -
[1277 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata I see Tux is back responding to threads. Can we get a response here tux? I mean 43 pages should deserve at least a little tidbit from a dev. I apologize for all those that yell & scream at you, as well as those that insult you. But I honestly appreciate what you guys do & am asking nicely. Please Tux, tell us the future of the amarr. P.S. I'm also curious about a Battlecruiser fix on agility/sig radius. Thank you very much Tux. /signed... At least CCP can asnwer to this saying:" Amarr are ok, stop ranting!"
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.24 19:01:00 -
[1278 ]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/07/2006 19:01:01 DIE Thread DIE! (the voices made me do it) --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.24 19:04:00 -
[1279 ]
Never! The people demands justice!
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.24 19:11:00 -
[1280 ]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/07/2006 19:01:01 DIE Thread DIE! (the voices made me do it) Thanks for the bumb!
KALEN ACHURAN
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.24 19:23:00 -
[1281 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata I see Tux is back responding to threads. Can we get a response here tux? I mean 43 pages should deserve at least a little tidbit from a dev. I apologize for all those that yell & scream at you, as well as those that insult you. But I honestly appreciate what you guys do & am asking nicely. Please Tux, tell us the future of the amarr. P.S. I'm also curious about a Battlecruiser fix on agility/sig radius. Thank you very much Tux. Umm 44 pages now and no response? Tux must gave gotten raped by an Amarr ship in his very first raven when he was new to the game. *Tux hates Amarr; its ok man I sold my original Amarr char for a new Caldari Least I am rich and never have to worry about a nerf... *please let a covert ops ship use a covert ops cloaking device...It just makes sense * *Bombers need baby love too * -Forum Fighter at work ; player at night
Benjamin Olson
Posted - 2006.07.24 19:41:00 -
[1282 ]
Edited by: Benjamin Olson on 24/07/2006 19:41:51 Well this is pretty ghey tbh. Youd think after 44 pages and numerous weeks of this Tux would say "Hey...44 pages...these people must be ticked over something. Lets give it a look." Instead we get Caldari grandpa's telling us about how way back when they were 12, CCP nerfed missiles and they had to move to another race. Do something CCP and maybe people will be happy again. Of course Tux doesnt have half the guts TomB did when he nerfed Caldari despite the fact they cried for weeks. My point? Tux do something bold for once...stop being a little girl and fix this Race's problem.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.24 19:50:00 -
[1283 ]
Maybe there no respond because they simply don't know how to fix it? Yup, there has been MANY good suggestions in this thread (and the others) but for all we know tweaking amarr might cause world to collide?
Sanctus Gabriel
Mordu's Elite
Posted - 2006.07.24 19:52:00 -
[1284 ]
well, speaking as a Caldari who hated the two missile nerfs but has learnt to cope very well I will say that personal attacks on Tux are not gonna endear you to him. However, Amarr are currently the weakest race at the moment IMO and greatly deserve some of that love that has been shown to both the Minm and Gallente relitivly recently. Ok, Amarr have seen some buffs... the much needed Tacyion boost (that didnt go far enough for my taste) and the much debated Vengence boost (but 1 grid extra to fill that new lowslot? damn sucky) but its still not really love as you boosted the other races by more. Looking at it from a relitive scale if everyone is boosted but not by the same amount the least boosted has experianced a stealth nerf. Amarr are underpowered in this day and age and could do with an almost total rethink to revitalise this dying Empire. Ok, Im done... flame away
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.24 19:54:00 -
[1285 ]
Originally by: Benjamin Olson Edited by: Benjamin Olson on 24/07/2006 19:41:51 Well this is pretty ghey tbh. Youd think after 44 pages and numerous weeks of this Tux would say "Hey...44 pages...these people must be ticked over something. Lets give it a look." Instead we get Caldari grandpa's telling us about how way back when they were 12, CCP nerfed missiles and they had to move to another race. Do something CCP and maybe people will be happy again. Of course Tux doesnt have half the guts TomB did when he nerfed Caldari despite the fact they cried for weeks. My point? Tux do something bold for once...stop being a little girl and fix this Race's problem. Yes, I'm sure Tuxford's balls are the problem here. He probably has all the solutions to all the worlds current problems, he's just severly lacking in the pants... So I say, lets all be a55h0les and try the old: ,,oh I guess CCP doesn't care for us amarr players, so no point in us paying our subsciption¦¦ bull5h1t (1337 5|>34|< ftw). Or we could trust that the development team isn't a bunch of glue-sniffing asshats and stop insulting them...
NumbaONE Gunna
Posted - 2006.07.24 22:48:00 -
[1286 ]
Bump... This will never die (until amarr ships are fixed at any rate)....Originally by: Stamm ------------------------------------------------------------------Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing an uzi ------
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.24 22:55:00 -
[1287 ]
I'm going to make it my goal now to keep this thread alive. I've played 3 years now, I've stuck with amarr 90% of the time and I don't know how nor care to learn how to use another race. I like the geddy, the abitrator/curse/pilgrim & the absolution. I dont have a t1 frig to use, the t2 versions are only ok. Zealot is just ok imo, sac blows, maller, omen & augoror aren't worth my time except to get on killmails using warp stabs. So counting it all up, we have 1 bs worthwhile, 1 not. 3 t2 ships worthwhile, 5 not. And 3 t1 cruisers & 4 out of 5 t1 frigs not worth crap. There are plenty of suggestions as to what is wrong for me not to have to repeat any of it. All I want at this point is the amarr race to be put under the microscope. We aren't all miners/PVE'ers/Roleplayers....We want to be better at PvP. I sincerly hope the new t1 ships coming out aren't in the same crappy mold amarr has become. We need something different & we need fixing. Tux, I'll be awaiting a response from you or someone else. Until then, 1 bump a day as i'm allowed.
hylleX
Spontaneous Defenestration Coalition of Carebear Killers
Posted - 2006.07.24 23:34:00 -
[1288 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata I'm going to make it my goal now to keep this thread alive. I've played 3 years now, I've stuck with amarr 90% of the time and I don't know how nor care to learn how to use another race. I like the geddy, the abitrator/curse/pilgrim & the absolution. I dont have a t1 frig to use, the t2 versions are only ok. Zealot is just ok imo, sac blows, maller, omen & augoror aren't worth my time except to get on killmails using warp stabs. So counting it all up, we have 1 bs worthwhile, 1 not. 3 t2 ships worthwhile, 5 not. And 3 t1 cruisers & 4 out of 5 t1 frigs not worth crap. There are plenty of suggestions as to what is wrong for me not to have to repeat any of it. All I want at this point is the amarr race to be put under the microscope. We aren't all miners/PVE'ers/Roleplayers....We want to be better at PvP. I sincerly hope the new t1 ships coming out aren't in the same crappy mold amarr has become. We need something different & we need fixing. Tux, I'll be awaiting a response from you or someone else. Until then, 1 bump a day as i'm allowed. As a two year amarr dedicated pilot this sums up our ships very well. I agree 100%, sad but true. The fact we dont get any response from ccp is well crap, i understand they dont want flamefests for dev replys, but no reply in this thread or even the Khanid MkII Thread which as this thread contains very good suggestions about the amarr situation, makes me wonder if any threads should be replied. ---------------------------------------------------------
Stephar
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.25 03:40:00 -
[1289 ]
Even a "We feel Amarr are fine at this time" post would be nice. I don't have a problem training up another race, but would like to know where CCP stands before I invest too much time.
Alextras Tesla
Posted - 2006.07.25 04:45:00 -
[1290 ]
YEAH....WHAT HE SAID. "im feeling very olympic today"
Agama
Veto.
Posted - 2006.07.25 04:52:00 -
[1291 ]
I have to post as well now. Amarr are in a pretty sad state right now. we have bugger all decent ships and after spec'ing into my Large T2 guns I feel like I have kinda wasted my time. There are some pretty great little ships but sadly overal Amarr aren't much chop when compared to the other races. However, like stated many many times in this thread....it would be great to get some dev love here or even in the Khanid thread. *sigh* one can only hope...otherwise I might as well start training some other racial ships. :( 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Brother Tycho
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.25 11:20:00 -
[1292 ]
Edited by: Brother Tycho on 25/07/2006 11:21:48 ive given up on amarr wasted 20mill SP on a race that only functions in large scale fleet battles, a part of the game CCP are hopeing to nerf anyway, thank the holy goat i had the insight to cross train into caldari ive been haveing a blast in my WCS, ECM Raven with proc cruise, whats the ******* piont of training for anything else when theres a ship like this pwn mobile. Domi,Phoon,Scorp>Geddon Raven,Tempest,Thron>Apoc the reason i put Mini over amarr is the phoon can still AB around with a decent tank and fit 2 gyros in low slots withought cap issues. the tempest has better alpha strike, better range, better dmg types and is faster, they also have 70 em resists to armour.
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.25 11:28:00 -
[1293 ]
A thread doesnt get a reply just because it has many pages, specially not if its just bumped all the time for no reason at all but to try and get a Tuxford reply. There is no way tuxford has missed this thread, dont worry. Now let it die knowing he has looked at it. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Devoras2
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.25 11:37:00 -
[1294 ]
You really dont know what to do, do you Tux? And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Brother Tycho
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.25 11:42:00 -
[1295 ]
Originally by: Jim McGregor A thread doesnt get a reply just because it has many pages, specially not if its just bumped all the time for no reason at all but to try and get a Tuxford reply. There is no way tuxford has missed this thread, dont worry. Now let it die knowing he has looked at it. if thats true i hope hes planing the amarr overhaul as there are some very unhappy laser brains, after all its about time amarr had a look in it seems there happy with the state of missiles drones and Hybrids.
Caya
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.25 13:58:00 -
[1296 ]
Will i be the only one after 44 pages saying, dont touch my amarr. They r more than fine and if they get boost i can already smell moaning from other sides.
Melkor Bloodaxe
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.07.25 14:06:00 -
[1297 ]
Originally by: Caya Will i be the only one after 44 pages saying, dont touch my amarr. They r more than fine and if they get boost i can already smell moaning from other sides. That being said, lock this and let it die in peace. Amen Originally by: HippoKing Since when is justified killing more fun than random killing?TEAM Minmatar
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.25 14:32:00 -
[1298 ]
Originally by: Caya Will i be the only one after 44 pages saying, dont touch my amarr. They r more than fine and if they get boost i can already smell moaning from other sides. Let me guess, you use mostly T2 frigs, battleships and/or capital ships. Quess what, this thread is exactly NOT about those but the general T1 lineup that's borked (and dmgtype balance). ________________________________________________ Originally by: Nidhoggur How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.25 14:35:00 -
[1299 ]
Here is my daily Bump. Today I logged on wishing I had a frig with longer range, but alas fitting beams takes 1) Too much Powergrid, 2) Too much Cap. Beams, the BS Gun for amarr, doesn't go on anything else. Thought for the day done.
Caya
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.25 15:00:00 -
[1300 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Caya Will i be the only one after 44 pages saying, dont touch my amarr. They r more than fine and if they get boost i can already smell moaning from other sides. Let me guess, you use mostly T2 frigs, battleships and/or capital ships. Quess what, this thread is exactly NOT about those but the general T1 lineup that's borked (and dmgtype balance). Just wrong guess.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.25 15:21:00 -
[1301 ]
Originally by: Caya Let me guess, you use mostly T2 frigs, battleships and/or capital ships. Quess what, this thread is exactly NOT about those but the general T1 lineup that's borked (and dmgtype balance). Just wrong guess. Strange, the last 20 kill entrys with your name in Battleclinic show you mostly in apocs, Aramas or Zealots. Once in a Purifier, once in a Punisher and once in an Arbitrator. 17 out of 3 should be "most".
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.25 15:23:00 -
[1302 ]
Originally by: Aramendel 17 out of 3 should be "most". Quoting logical errors ftw. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.25 15:31:00 -
[1303 ]
Originally by: Caya Will i be the only one after 44 pages saying, dont touch my amarr. They r more than fine and if they get boost i can already smell moaning from other sides. Posting without reading ftl What, cant be arsed to read 40+ pages? Well dont bother posting either.
Stephar
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.25 17:09:00 -
[1304 ]
I wonder if the devs have a running bet on how long this thread will get. "Hey Tux, how long is that Amarr thread now? 44 pages?? LOL!!"
Ann Mari
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.25 17:58:00 -
[1305 ]
I really don't care if Amarr get fixed tbh. I set out with goals this time, and they got ruined. Lemme explain "this time". I've been playing since Exodus. Had a Gallente main, but flew Caldari, because missles wtfbbqpwnz0rd. They had no penalties. A missle fired at a target would do X damage. And it would do that exact same damage regardless of speed, transversal v or anything. It just took resists into consideration. I considered the game broken and unbalanced and quit and went to Wow for 6 months. Came back with high hopes. This time (Since January) I ditched that cross-dressed char, and started an Amarr with the intent to only fly Amarr ships, mostly for RP reasons. Well, she's now also gonna ditch Amarr ships and go Caldari. I'm sorry, but I don't care what any spread sheet says. I'm purely basing my decision on experience. Here's one example. I met up with 2 Caldari pilots that had about the same skill points as me (Both around 6 months old) in a complex area. I had a look at how they took out NPCs compared to me. They cleared a room (About 10-15 ships mixed frigs + cruisers) in the time it took my to kill 1 cruiser. And I was alreadsy shooting at the cruiser when they got in. We were all in cruisers. This is just one example (of about 5 that I can think off the top of my head, but don't have the inclination of typing out) of Caldari = I win, and I don't care what anyone says to the contrary. I'm not opening a debate, I'm merely making a statement. The absence of any word from CCP on the matter, to me, indicates that they're not planning to do anything about it, or they don't know what to do. So to save them some time, I'll simply exploit the situation as I should've done weeks ago. I'm simply gonna respec to Caldari again. ///End "There can be no justice, if rules are absolute" "The enemy of my enemy, is my friend"
Novaghost
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.07.25 22:00:00 -
[1306 ]
Hi folks, I don't have a lot of experience with weaponry types or damages on BSs mainly because i've only been in-game for about 4 months. Just one thing i'd like to know. I currently fly an Apoc and was wondering if i'm better off skilling for T2 energy or T2 projectile to outfit it. Cheers
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.25 22:04:00 -
[1307 ]
Train for lazors :) Sooner or later they will be useful again :) And back on topic: also fix abaddon ;p
Devoras2
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.26 01:09:00 -
[1308 ]
Bump! Dont think im done yet. And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Wen Jaibao
Posted - 2006.07.26 01:12:00 -
[1309 ]
And here I was thinking this thread died
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.26 01:38:00 -
[1310 ]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Train for lazors :) Sooner or later they will be useful again :) And back on topic: also fix abaddon ;p Stop asking CCP to fix a ship you've had no experience flying you sad little man.
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.26 01:40:00 -
[1311 ]
Guess you are blind... search for emoticon at the end of my text next time.
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.26 01:45:00 -
[1312 ]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Guess you are blind... search for emoticon at the end of my text next time. Yes I am blind... you win the thread :D (yeah I made a smiley too, and now you don't know what I really meant h0h0h0h0h0!!1!111)
Gelinder
Posted - 2006.07.26 02:55:00 -
[1313 ]
So let me get this straight, I'm a new player so I might have missed something. They gave laser a built in dmg bonus, but balanced it with high cap usage. Then they gave all the laser ships -50% cap usage on lasers. Fine. Then they release EANM II which basicly negates the laser dmg advantage due to EM resists on armor. So now we are stuck with guns that do normal dmg with normal cap usage, wich results in amaar ships only having one bonus per ship
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.26 03:06:00 -
[1314 ]
Originally by: Gelinder So let me get this straight, I'm a new player so I might have missed something. They gave laser a built in dmg bonus, but balanced it with high cap usage. Then they gave all the laser ships -50% cap usage on lasers. Fine. Then they release EANM II which basicly negates the laser dmg advantage due to EM resists on armor. So now we are stuck with guns that do normal dmg with normal cap usage, wich results in amaar ships only having one bonus per ship This is probably the best summary of current amarr problems in this tread...
eLLioTT wave
Art of War Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.26 06:58:00 -
[1315 ]
Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Gelinder So let me get this straight, I'm a new player so I might have missed something. They gave laser a built in dmg bonus, but balanced it with high cap usage. Then they gave all the laser ships -50% cap usage on lasers. Fine. Then they release EANM II which basicly negates the laser dmg advantage due to EM resists on armor. So now we are stuck with guns that do normal dmg with normal cap usage, wich results in amaar ships only having one bonus per ship This is probably the best summary of current amarr problems in this tread... Have to agree here, doesn't apply to all amarr ships but amarr are supposed to be lasers and everything is encouraging us to use projectiles which is wrong. WHY should we have to use the "inferior" slave weaponry?
Nadec Ascand
Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion
Posted - 2006.07.26 11:51:00 -
[1316 ]
My ishtar have 91% resist in kinetic and 80% in thermal Boost Hybrid ...
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.26 12:07:00 -
[1317 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 26/07/2006 12:09:34 Originally by: Gelinder So let me get this straight, I'm a new player so I might have missed something. They gave laser a built in dmg bonus, but balanced it with high cap usage. Then they gave all the laser ships -50% cap usage on lasers. Fine. Then they release EANM II which basicly negates the laser dmg advantage due to EM resists on armor. So now we are stuck with guns that do normal dmg with normal cap usage, wich results in amaar ships only having one bonus per ship Thats one core problem, yes. There are a few more, though. Nothing as major, but it adds up. - slight PG fitting issues with lasers (nothing huge, but it is there) - the med <-> low PvP usability imbalance (should hopefully be reduced somewhat with the (hopefully effecient) ECM nerf (did I mention hopefully?)) - with the size reduction for cap charges the so-called amarr tanking superiority isn't very big anymore - Khanid ships... - EW resistance varies a lot more than the other resistances of NPCs, making lasers either very good or very bad for ratting
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.26 12:20:00 -
[1318 ]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand My ishtar have 91% resist in kinetic and 80% in thermal Boost Hybrid ... worst comparison ever?
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.26 13:03:00 -
[1319 ]
To be honest the only ships from amarr line i'd like to be changed now are Khanid boats. As i see t1 amarr line consists of lazor+tank boats (with some exceptions like inquisitor/arbitrator). Also atm most t2 ships follow this trend (except for curse/pilgrim/purifier). Maybe its time to give amarr some diveristy? Khanid missile boats (as in Sarmaul's Khanid mk2)?
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.07.26 13:33:00 -
[1320 ]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Maybe its time to give amarr some diveristy? Khanid missile boats (as in Sarmaul's Khanid mk2)? a problem that's accenuated even more by the new t3 BS... it's what the apoc should of been... and yet another gun boat a quick comparison: amarr t1: gun ship amarr t2: gun ship amarr t3: gun ship caldari t1: ew ship caldari t2: missile ship caldari t3: gun ship minny t1: mixed weapons platform (not nessicarly good but its diverse) minny t2: great damage dealer minny t3: great tanker gal t1: wtfpwnagemobile gal t2: gun ship that can be fitted for diversity (blasters vs rails etc) gal t3: super quick close range gun ship ------------------------------------ I do sigs, evemail me :)
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.26 13:48:00 -
[1321 ]
I just lost my hopes for anything more diverse in amarr line. If CCP ever adds missing amarr frigate it will be lasers+tank or tank+laser (or both on same ship but not both at once...). I dunno if it is really that hard to add some flavour to amarr line. Caldari have EW+rails+missiles, Gallente: drones+blasters+rails (i know both are hybrids but ships using them usually have specific bonuses), Minimi: both types of tank (shield and armor), guns, missiles, speed (on some of ships ofc). Amarr: guns (if i add tank here i may as well add tank to gally and caldari cause they tank as well). For some time i tought second thingy will be drones (arbi, large geddon drone bay, pilgrim and curse) or missiles (khanids having way more missile launchers than amarr ships). But as of late: khanids were turned into... guns and last hope for amarr drone boat has... guns! Thats something new for amarr which noone suspected :)
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.26 14:41:00 -
[1322 ]
Another day, Another bump. Today I can't help but worry about Cap on the abbadon, so I started looking at how many ships we have w/ a cap bonus. I WAS SHOCKED!!! What a waste, we have soooo many ships with these stupid bonuses. They all should be removed & Lasers should be given a 50% reduction to cap across the board. This would make the abbadon feasible. Then replace each cap bonus removed with new bonuses, like repair bonus for the maller, optimal range for the omen, Drone bonus for geddy, tank bonus for apoc. In regards to the abbadon, its possible to be able to deal with the cap issues, but we'd have to put 2 injectors on to manage, which uses extra PG & takes up lots of cargo in cap boosters, probably too few boosters. The ship will probably just become a long range gank ship, with 3-4 stabs & heat sink 2's. Anyways, daily post/bump over.
gu o
Posted - 2006.07.26 15:03:00 -
[1323 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Another day, Another bump. Today I can't help but worry about Cap on the abbadon, so I started looking at how many ships we have w/ a cap bonus. I WAS SHOCKED!!! What a waste, we have soooo many ships with these stupid bonuses. They all should be removed & Lasers should be given a 50% reduction to cap across the board. This would make the abbadon feasible. Then replace each cap bonus removed with new bonuses, like repair bonus for the maller, optimal range for the omen, Drone bonus for geddy, tank bonus for apoc. In regards to the abbadon, its possible to be able to deal with the cap issues, but we'd have to put 2 injectors on to manage, which uses extra PG & takes up lots of cargo in cap boosters, probably too few boosters. The ship will probably just become a long range gank ship, with 3-4 stabs & heat sink 2's. Anyways, daily post/bump over. Dude if we did not have these "wasted cap bonus" we would be overpowered. a don with rof and drone damage bonus would be retarded amazing. like insta gank times 2. the apoc...if can have res bonus and become the exact same as abaddon... with art and everything. but the abbadon now thats a ship think about it 8 miner 2's 3-4 mining upgrades viscous mining platform Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.07.26 15:50:00 -
[1324 ]
Originally by: gu o but the abbadon now thats a ship think about it 8 miner 2's 3-4 mining upgrades viscous mining platform yea because its not like anyone pvp with amarr anymore anyway ps. gutted i didn't get the 1337th reply :( ------------------------------------ I do sigs, evemail me :)
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.07.26 16:35:00 -
[1325 ]
EAN II tanks, variety compared to other races......... Please tux give us some love. If you are not sure what Amarr need the take some of our ideas or bounce some of your or your crews ideas off us. We don't mind. What else are forum *****s for? Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.26 16:46:00 -
[1326 ]
Originally by: Nyxus EAN II tanks, variety compared to other races......... Please tux give us some love. If you are not sure what Amarr need the take some of our ideas or bounce some of your or your crews ideas off us. We don't mind. What else are forum *****s for? Nyxus What he said. I know this amarr problem isn't going to be solved by any easy means but it would be nice knowing that something is being done.
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.26 17:02:00 -
[1327 ]
Let me clarify then. Apoc should be all tank, geddy should be all gank, abaddon should be both, since ccp doesn't have any desire to let us do anything besides shoot lasers.... Yes, the abaddon would be able to do a better tank or a better gank than the geddy, but thats how it is already. There are lots of bonuses that dont make amarr overpowered, here, make the omen faster, 5% to velocity per level instead of cap bonus thing. Hell, 10% golder per level is better than the cap bonus's that we currently get. The cap bonus to lasers should be inherent or, better idea, reduce the cap usage on them to the usage of old neutron blasters, that would be more than fair. There are so many ideas, I have no doubt that ccp can think of fair bonus's that dont make us overpowered, but create some more specialization amongst are ships. Sac should go back to a missle ship, but keep its resistance to armor, not shields. Zealot is fine, but change the cap bonus to speed, like the omen. This gives us a fast ship for once. Maller should be a missle/laser option ship, a lesser version of the sac. Geddy should keep its ROF bonus, but add a drone capacity bonus, no need for more damage. That would give us options to use differenty types of drones. Apoc should be the ultimate tank, 1 bonus to rep amount, 1 to resistance. These are just coming off the top of my head, there are 45 pages of ideas. But by no means will we be overpowered by any of those bonuses I just mentioned.
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.27 13:30:00 -
[1328 ]
Daily Bump. No real new thoughts today....except maybe the old, still waiting for a Dev to say something to us. Oh, I have a long way to catch up, but I'm working on an alt training for Caldari ships....Hope I never have to use him.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.27 13:45:00 -
[1329 ]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 27/07/2006 13:46:24 After sleeping on it, and calming down and looking at this new battleship with a calm mind I just have to say......this new battleship shows how the ship designer guys/girls lack not only fantasy but also inventivness. Its a minus one million on the exighting scale
Exiled One
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.27 14:06:00 -
[1330 ]
AMARR tier 3 bs --- http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/ships/cruisers/amarr/628.asp
Zhon
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.27 14:13:00 -
[1331 ]
That interesting tux responds to a thread to correct someone spelling but for some reason wonÆt respond to a 45 page post that everyone wants him to respond to. Real Nice..... ---------
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.07.27 14:18:00 -
[1332 ]
Originally by: Zhon That interesting tux responds to a thread to correct someone spelling but for some reason wonÆt respond to a 45 page post that everyone wants him to respond to. Real Nice..... my thoughts exactly.... usually leave this thread to last on my forum trips to see if devs have been about but to be honest i really don't think we will get a response... not in this thread anyway, but just A response would be nice, just one, just let me know I should train gallente and get it over with ------------------------------------ I do sigs, evemail me :)For the love of bbq sauce un-nerf amarr!
Exiled One
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.27 14:20:00 -
[1333 ]
Originally by: south24 Originally by: Zhon That interesting tux responds to a thread to correct someone spelling but for some reason wonÆt respond to a 45 page post that everyone wants him to respond to. Real Nice..... my thoughts exactly.... usually leave this thread to last on my forum trips to see if devs have been about but to be honest i really don't think we will get a response... not in this thread anyway, but just A response would be nice, just one, just let me know I should train gallente and get it over with That was my thread reasons for no reply: 1. china 2. they don't really care what happened to the lub fest of ppl asking and receiving that we had back in the 2004
Exiled One
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.27 14:31:00 -
[1334 ]
Originally by: south24 Originally by: Exiled One That was my thread like that's something to be proud of No, hence the - - smilie in the end. But i guess and i really HOPE that ccp is REVIEWING the whole tier 3 bs situation and the stats( bonuses ) WILL be based on TIER 3/2 CRUISERS arbitrator > abaddon moa > rokh (already) bellicose > maelstrom celestis > hyperion.
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.27 14:39:00 -
[1335 ]
I guess we should kill this thread by making a new thread that has every single possible issue summarized nicely (I'm looking at Sarmaul, Nyxus, Aramandiel here just to name a few) so that Tux can read that and see in one nice post what we are complaining about. ________________________________________________ Originally by: Nidhoggur How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.27 14:41:00 -
[1336 ]
Originally by: Exiled One Originally by: south24 Originally by: Exiled One That was my thread like that's something to be proud of No, hence the - - smilie in the end. But i guess and i really HOPE that ccp is REVIEWING the whole tier 3 bs situation and the stats( bonuses ) WILL be based on TIER 3/2 CRUISERS arbitrator > abaddon moa > rokh (already) bellicose > maelstrom celestis > hyperion. That is the worst idea I've ever seen... let us have the gankaddon!!
Exiled One
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.27 14:46:00 -
[1337 ]
Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Exiled One Originally by: south24 Originally by: Exiled One That was my thread like that's something to be proud of No, hence the - - smilie in the end. But i guess and i really HOPE that ccp is REVIEWING the whole tier 3 bs situation and the stats( bonuses ) WILL be based on TIER 3/2 CRUISERS arbitrator > abaddon moa > rokh (already) bellicose > maelstrom celestis > hyperion. That is the worst idea I've ever seen... let us have the gankaddon!! This is eve, that part of eve that is gone, that you did not experience and probably will never do, unless you move to china.
gu o
Posted - 2006.07.27 15:19:00 -
[1338 ]
Edited by: gu o on 27/07/2006 15:23:36 Edited by: gu o on 27/07/2006 15:22:04 Edited by: gu o on 27/07/2006 15:21:47 NONONO don't kill this thred cause they always respond when a forum gets to 50pages... On another note... the abba might not be that bad. I meen It will do gank or tank well. at lvl 5 battleship it would be like shooting 16 lasers...even with 80% em that would lay the hurt down. But honestly who is not gonna fit projectiles on this ship? you would be silly not to. Fit it with 8 1400's and have room for mad tank. I am thinking with lvl 5 bs the 25% resistance with 3 eanm II's and lvl 4 compensation will make one hell of a ship. prob get by with just the one armour repair. so you have 4 free slots to make your art amazing. the preliminary stats are kinda interesting to look at i recomend checking em out. the abba will have not so bad capacitor (if the stats stay the same) but with a 500m3 cargo not much room for 800 carges. oh well you don't need charges with projectiles tryin to linkie the screen shot... http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0607/tier3_bs.jpg *crosses fingers it works Gahh sob I have no idea how to turn the site into a link sorry all fellow amarrians, and you caldari spectators Heres to page 50 Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.27 15:29:00 -
[1339 ]
Originally by: gu o On another note... the abba might not be that bad. I meen It will do gank or tank well. at lvl 5 battleship it would be like shooting 16 lasers...even with 80% em that would lay the hurt down. Plz learn maths :( 8 guns/0,75 rof = 10,6 guns So its like 10,6 gun not 16... As for cap: atm it is worse than base (without bonus) apoc cap... (5,1/sec compared to 5,14 or 5,19... dont remember now). Lvl5 apoc gets 25% more ofc. (no i dont want discuss abt abby here, just correcting some mistakes)
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.27 15:39:00 -
[1340 ]
Quote: This is eve, that part of eve that is gone, that you did not experience and probably will never do, unless you move to china . Oh, I'm sorry my mighty wise amarrian lord. I shouldn't dare question you and your moronic wishes for an Amarrian droneboat...
gu o
Posted - 2006.07.27 15:48:00 -
[1341 ]
Originally by: Dixon Quote: This is eve, that part of eve that is gone, that you did not experience and probably will never do, unless you move to china . Oh, I'm sorry my mighty wise amarrian lord. I shouldn't dare question you and your moronic wishes for an Amarrian droneboat... Dude WTF is your problem? My dear lord you are the most angry arse in the world... were do you live BTW? must be some backwards as$ place were people go about acting like as$holes to eachother. or are you just an oddity? please leave the forums and go learn to act like a normal person... I have yet to read a comment from you were you do not act/reply in the most sh1t oriented manner ever. Would it be better if every time you post we reply to you with some hack-as$ attempt to be cool through as$-like actions? Example: Originally by: Dixon Quote: This is eve, that part of eve that is gone, that you did not experience and probably will never do, unless you move to china . Oh, I'm sorry my mighty wise amarrian lord. I shouldn't dare question you and your moronic wishes for an Amarrian droneboat... Oh well F0ck you too ass hole I am the best I am an Amarrian lord you backwards as$-clown why don't you pick up were you left off and go f0ck your mother thrice in the as$ you f0cking piece of ****. I have seen you claim to be all about amarr and lasers well then if thats the case you piece of f0cking **** you know how much tech I ships really suck. go fit a arbi and a maller and go head to head. which will win you piece of f0cking ****....the arbi every focking time... why not get a bigger version? cause it will *****your focking raven so damn hard you cry Caldari **** water... I will not continue with my feeble attempt to act as as$ like as you can but I have a feeling you get the point please respond in a decent manner *I did not meen to offend anyone, even you Dixon, with this post. I am just trying to express my concern for your ill responses* Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.27 16:03:00 -
[1342 ]
Originally by: Dixon Quote: This is eve, that part of eve that is gone, that you did not experience and probably will never do, unless you move to china . Oh, I'm sorry my mighty wise amarrian lord. I shouldn't dare question you and your moronic wishes for an Amarrian droneboat... You do realize your pathetic trolling in the Amarr threads just make you look like a complete fool?
xenorx
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.07.27 16:07:00 -
[1343 ]
Originally by: gu o Originally by: Dixon Quote: This is eve, that part of eve that is gone, that you did not experience and probably will never do, unless you move to china . Oh, I'm sorry my mighty wise amarrian lord. I shouldn't dare question you and your moronic wishes for an Amarrian droneboat... Dude WTF is your problem? My dear lord you are the most angry arse in the world... were do you live BTW? must be some backwards as$ place were people go about acting like as$holes to eachother. or are you just an oddity? please leave the forums and go learn to act like a normal person... I have yet to read a comment from you were you do not act/reply in the most sh1t oriented manner ever. Would it be better if every time you post we reply to you with some hack-as$ attempt to be cool through as$-like actions? Example: Originally by: Dixon Quote: This is eve, that part of eve that is gone, that you did not experience and probably will never do, unless you move to china . Oh, I'm sorry my mighty wise amarrian lord. I shouldn't dare question you and your moronic wishes for an Amarrian droneboat... Oh well F0ck you too ass hole I am the best I am an Amarrian lord you backwards as$-clown why don't you pick up were you left off and go f0ck your mother thrice in the as$ you f0cking piece of ****. I have seen you claim to be all about amarr and lasers well then if thats the case you piece of f0cking **** you know how much tech I ships really suck. go fit a arbi and a maller and go head to head. which will win you piece of f0cking ****....the arbi every focking time... why not get a bigger version? cause it will *****your focking raven so damn hard you cry Caldari **** water... I will not continue with my feeble attempt to act as as$ like as you can but I have a feeling you get the point please respond in a decent manner *I did not meen to offend anyone, even you Dixon, with this post. I am just trying to express my concern for your ill responses* You sir are totally out of line and deserve the forum ban that is probably coming your way.No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
gu o
Posted - 2006.07.27 16:16:00 -
[1344 ]
Originally by: xenorx Originally by: gu o Originally by: Dixon Quote: This is eve, that part of eve that is gone, that you did not experience and probably will never do, unless you move to china . Oh, I'm sorry my mighty wise amarrian lord. I shouldn't dare question you and your moronic wishes for an Amarrian droneboat... Dude WTF is your problem? My dear lord you are the most angry arse in the world... were do you live BTW? must be some backwards as$ place were people go about acting like as$holes to eachother. or are you just an oddity? please leave the forums and go learn to act like a normal person... I have yet to read a comment from you were you do not act/reply in the most sh1t oriented manner ever. Would it be better if every time you post we reply to you with some hack-as$ attempt to be cool through as$-like actions? Example: Originally by: Dixon Quote: This is eve, that part of eve that is gone, that you did not experience and probably will never do, unless you move to china . Oh, I'm sorry my mighty wise amarrian lord. I shouldn't dare question you and your moronic wishes for an Amarrian droneboat... Oh well F0ck you too ass hole I am the best I am an Amarrian lord you backwards as$-clown why don't you pick up were you left off and go f0ck your mother thrice in the as$ you f0cking piece of ****. I have seen you claim to be all about amarr and lasers well then if thats the case you piece of f0cking **** you know how much tech I ships really suck. go fit a arbi and a maller and go head to head. which will win you piece of f0cking ****....the arbi every focking time... why not get a bigger version? cause it will *****your focking raven so damn hard you cry Caldari **** water... I will not continue with my feeble attempt to act as as$ like as you can but I have a feeling you get the point please respond in a decent manner *I did not meen to offend anyone, even you Dixon, with this post. I am just trying to express my concern for your ill responses* You sir are totally out of line and deserve the forum ban that is probably coming your way. I am quite certain I do deserve a ban..and will not be upset for it. I was merely attempting to post in a similar fassion as Dixon. I have read his trolling post so many times and he rarely has anything construtive to say. he gernerally just says the most blatent, ill-tempered posts. I was trying to make a statement about people (With Dixon as the pig) about posts that are way too offensive. It was supposed to be a demonstration. I sincerely hope that noone took offense from it. I was truely not meaning harm from its post. But my English skills are not on par with many other people and as such have probably simply made a horrib post that people think is geared towards hurting people and their feelings. Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.27 17:00:00 -
[1345 ]
Quote: You do realize your pathetic trolling in the Amarr threads just make you look like a complete fool? Yeah... well I like my amarr ships to be Amarr. Although it seems that many of you have grown tired of the ships I don't see any reason to change them. The mere fact that I am caldari doesn't make my opinions on amarr ships any less valid. The arbitrator is a nice t1 small-gang EW/drone support ship, but even the omen and maller outperform it as raw damage dealers and tankers. I also think the whole idea of an Amarr drone BS is ridiculous. I have yet to see a single idea of this oversized Arbi that doesn't look like something extremely overpowered or horribly sucky. I don't care if this makes me a fool in your eyes.
gu o
Posted - 2006.07.27 17:12:00 -
[1346 ]
Originally by: Dixon Quote: You do realize your pathetic trolling in the Amarr threads just make you look like a complete fool? Yeah... well I like my amarr ships to be Amarr. Although it seems that many of you have grown tired of the ships I don't see any reason to change them. The mere fact that I am caldari doesn't make my opinions on amarr ships any less valid. The arbitrator is a nice t1 small-gang EW/drone support ship, but even the omen and maller outperform it as raw damage dealers and tankers. I also think the whole idea of an Amarr drone BS is ridiculous. I have yet to see a single idea of this oversized Arbi that doesn't look like something extremely overpowered or horribly sucky. I don't care if this makes me a fool in your eyes. Thanks for compiled NICE reply... I agree that the raw dps is extremely high on paper. but after using the ships I have found that the vast majority of people are extremely well tanked against lasers. I remember the entire reason I stopped useing lasers quite vividly...I had gotten a geddon jsut a few weeks before and wanted to check its PVP ability so with help from a corp mate we had a mock battle. I quite clearly remember not doing any damage to him. I got battle message that read: "your mega beam I perfectly strikes Yarno's Ferrox for 74 damage" at this point I was a bit upset my entire wallet had been emptied for the ship and a perfect was 74? I preceeded to hit a bunch of 20's and my cap went dead. I was lit my drones wich at the time were horrible did more damage. I am sure people can have amazing geddons but they were not for me... my dislike for lasers went up by a factor of 10 when I got in a fight with a guy in a curse... yeah I know its a tech 2 and I was young but still... I could not shoot. could not leave. could not rep. I was soo mad that I said I would never again use some lame gun that could only shoot with capacitor. So my nos domi was born... but only after 3months of arbi work. I could kill in 0.0 sec with my arbi, a thing I had issues doing in my geddon. Once I got my domi I was nearly sickened. it could tank better than my geddon could ever dream to. with 5 mid slots you could actually rep and not eat through your cap. CPR FTW Anyways super off topic but that was my first 6month eve experience a great excitment only to get crushed when I came to find out that lasers were not as good as they appeared on paper... that crazy amount of damage is a crock, everyone can tank lasers without any change to their armour tank.... Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.27 17:26:00 -
[1347 ]
Originally by: gu o Originally by: Dixon Quote: You do realize your pathetic trolling in the Amarr threads just make you look like a complete fool? Yeah... well I like my amarr ships to be Amarr. Although it seems that many of you have grown tired of the ships I don't see any reason to change them. The mere fact that I am caldari doesn't make my opinions on amarr ships any less valid. The arbitrator is a nice t1 small-gang EW/drone support ship, but even the omen and maller outperform it as raw damage dealers and tankers. I also think the whole idea of an Amarr drone BS is ridiculous. I have yet to see a single idea of this oversized Arbi that doesn't look like something extremely overpowered or horribly sucky. I don't care if this makes me a fool in your eyes. Thanks for compiled NICE reply... I agree that the raw dps is extremely high on paper. but after using the ships I have found that the vast majority of people are extremely well tanked against lasers. I remember the entire reason I stopped useing lasers quite vividly...I had gotten a geddon jsut a few weeks before and wanted to check its PVP ability so with help from a corp mate we had a mock battle. I quite clearly remember not doing any damage to him. I got battle message that read: "your mega beam I perfectly strikes Yarno's Ferrox for 74 damage" at this point I was a bit upset my entire wallet had been emptied for the ship and a perfect was 74? I preceeded to hit a bunch of 20's and my cap went dead. I was lit my drones wich at the time were horrible did more damage. I am sure people can have amazing geddons but they were not for me... my dislike for lasers went up by a factor of 10 when I got in a fight with a guy in a curse... yeah I know its a tech 2 and I was young but still... I could not shoot. could not leave. could not rep. I was soo mad that I said I would never again use some lame gun that could only shoot with capacitor. So my nos domi was born... but only after 3months of arbi work. I could kill in 0.0 sec with my arbi, a thing I had issues doing in my geddon. Once I got my domi I was nearly sickened. it could tank better than my geddon could ever dream to. with 5 mid slots you could actually rep and not eat through your cap. CPR FTW Anyways super off topic but that was my first 6month eve experience a great excitment only to get crushed when I came to find out that lasers were not as good as they appeared on paper... that crazy amount of damage is a crock, everyone can tank lasers without any change to their armour tank.... NOS is horrible, there we can agree. But I have actually never ran into a pvp-situation where I couldn't break my opponents tank. I actually killed a stababond last night on my zealot. I had no problem breaking his tank, and when he tried to warp I bumped his webbed ass and finished the job (92.5% base em resist on armor, 75% on sheilds). My experience with Amarr ships may differ from yours, but I've also had my share of deaths by nosdomi (god I hate those). But I have never ran into any trouble on my amarr ships unless it's ECM and NOS-related. Now I don't think Amarr are balanced atm. They have been left behind and need a small fix. The EAN II problem is the first to come to mind and some bonus changes but IMO lasers remain the best weapons in EvE. I think changing Amarrian focus from lasers and armor tanking does not leave a good taste in my mouth. Some ships need a overhaul and EAN II effect needs to be looked at but don't go all out and change what this race is about...
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.27 18:01:00 -
[1348 ]
Well, even if the tier 3 would be a shieldtank with target painter boni it wouldn't change "what this race is about". It's just one ship. My big complaint is "false advertising". IIRC tux said that the tier3 are not meant to make the older BSs obsolete, but do add some more varity to the racial fleet. But the aba does the first, not that latter. Dependning on setup it is an arma replacement or an apoc replacement. This isn't the case for the other tier3, those are exactly like advertised. Another thing is the devs said they want to make combat longer. And here we get a ship which does the very opposite. The aba with a dps setup needs to kill it's target AFAP because it will have no standing power. What will happen when you suddenly need twice as long to kill a target?
Stamm
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.27 18:06:00 -
[1349 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Well, even if the tier 3 would be a shieldtank with target painter boni it wouldn't change "what this race is about". It's just one ship. My big complaint is "false advertising". IIRC tux said that the tier3 are not meant to make the older BSs obsolete, but do add some more varity to the racial fleet. But the aba does the first, not that latter. Dependning on setup it is an arma replacement or an apoc replacement. This isn't the case for the other tier3, those are exactly like advertised. Another thing is the devs said they want to make combat longer. And here we get a ship which does the very opposite. The aba with a dps setup needs to kill it's target AFAP because it will have no standing power. What will happen when you suddenly need twice as long to kill a target? Fit projectiles because laser cap use is not sustainable in a long fight on the ship, and lo and behold. We have the Apoc with 5% to cap per level, and we have the Abba with 5% to resists per level. Not much variety there :/ But that's only for when the tank becomes very important, for now the gank is more important.
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.27 18:12:00 -
[1350 ]
Quote: Well, even if the tier 3 would be a shieldtank with target painter boni it wouldn't change "what this race is about". It's just one ship. Well I do agree that one ship doesn't change that much, I just don't think that ship should be our tier 3 BS. The devs have already stated that they are going to 'fix' the Apoc, so why not make that something like these guys want (missiles or drones).
Ridjeck Thome
Posted - 2006.07.27 18:13:00 -
[1351 ]
@ Dixon Excuse me for asking, but I'd be interested in finding out where the devs mentioned 'fixing' the apoc - would be very useful in consdiering options :)
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.27 18:21:00 -
[1352 ]
Originally by: Ridjeck Thome @ Dixon Excuse me for asking, but I'd be interested in finding out where the devs mentioned 'fixing' the apoc - would be very useful in consdiering options :) I can't remember who it was exactly, I think Oveur. But in an EvE-TV interview some dev mentioned that the Apoc needed a fix.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.27 18:32:00 -
[1353 ]
Originally by: Stamm Fit projectiles because laser cap use is not sustainable in a long fight on the ship, and lo and behold. We have the Apoc with 5% to cap per level, and we have the Abba with 5% to resists per level. Not much variety there :/ But that's only for when the tank becomes very important, for now the gank is more important. Yes, that I was referring to when I said that depending on fit it can assume the apocs and geddons role. The point is that with combat made longer in the future there is a pretty good possibility that the dps aspect of the aba becomes gimped. And then we have 2 tanking BSs. Which is IMO 1 too much.
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.07.27 21:43:00 -
[1354 ]
my bump for the day, may as well use it before midnight ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Tiuwaz
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.07.27 21:43:00 -
[1355 ]
Originally by: south24 my bump for the day, may as well use it before midnight damn MM roleplayers, thought the thread finally died Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.07.27 21:44:00 -
[1356 ]
Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: south24 my bump for the day, may as well use it before midnight damn MM roleplayers, thought the thread finally died haha, damn my roleplaying tendencies
Ridjeck Thome
Posted - 2006.07.28 08:31:00 -
[1357 ]
@Dixon "I can't remember who it was exactly, I think Oveur. But in an EvE-TV interview some dev mentioned that the Apoc needed a fix." I hope so, but I wtched oveurs interview and seem to recall I had the impression that jsut referred to fixing the Gfx for the apoc under the new Gfx engine..I hope Im wrong *bump*
Morkus Rex
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.28 09:17:00 -
[1358 ]
Why a ROF bonus ? If you don't give it the normal Amarr cap bonus on turrets, wouldn't it be more logical just giving it a damage bonus instead ? Have tried putting the Abbadon into Quickfit, and I found that it will have serious problems keeping the cap going with all 8 turrets fitted. Goodbye Amarr Battleships... hello Caldari Battleship _____________________________________________ Our users will know fear and cover before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
Myal Terego
PAX Interstellar Services Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.28 09:59:00 -
[1359 ]
/bump Its sad when id rather be on the battlefield in a nos domi with 12 mil sp in guns, because lasers are as gimped as they are.
Arathian Evasion
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.28 10:29:00 -
[1360 ]
As much as I would love to have our new T3 BS be a droneboat I don't know if it is the right way to go. Amarr to me has always been a pretty focused race. Big tank, big gank, not much versatility. What we need is a laser fix, a big laser fix. Then Amarr ships, including our new toy, will be fun again. We should make up for our lack of versatility with effectiveness. You simply can't justify leaving us with mediocre performance at the only thing we're good at.
Xendie
Chosen Path Center for Disease Creation
Posted - 2006.07.28 11:13:00 -
[1361 ]
minmatar got the perfect long range alpha strike fleet battleship full rack of 1400's, 4 SB2, 2 tracking comps, 1 med rep, 2 tracking enhancers and 3 gyro2's that should fit nicely with the stats that are out so far. and it will be a mean tanker that can shoot and tank at the same time the rohk will be a 200k+ sniper with tech1 gear, cheap in fittings and usage, awesome with tech2 gear it will propably pretty nasty at close range also. and yes it will be able to shoot and tank at the same time gallente will get the nastiest blasterboat ever with its higher speed and lower inertia it will be ontop of anyone really fast and then eat them up. havent seen the stats on this one but i assume it will be able to shoot and tank at the same time . then we have the Tier1 and Tier2 BS also where most can shoot and tank at the same time . ships that come to mind is megathron, raven, domi, phoon, tempest, apoc with pitiful dmg, geddon with smallest large guns. and then the amarr get the abbadon wich cant shoot and tank at the same time . the maelstrom will be able to tank better then the abbadon and shoot at the same time. im pretty sure that any other ship then amarr's will be able to do that. with the cap usage at 100% on amarr gun on that ship it will need 2 cap injectors to have a chance of staying alive. ah yes i forgot to mention that the stats also says that the abbadon will have the smallest cargobay also so it cant carry all the cap boosters it would actually need. with this configuration every abbadon pilot will need someone in a bestower to follow him around and hand him cap boosters every 2min. to bad that the bestower isnt bulletproof wich will get him killed right off the bat and then leaving the abbadon without cap boosters anyway. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
eLLioTT wave
Art of War Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.28 11:21:00 -
[1362 ]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 28/07/2006 11:21:05 Originally by: Xendie minmatar got the perfect long range alpha strike fleet battleship full rack of 1400's, 4 SB2, 2 tracking comps, 1 med rep, 2 tracking enhancers and 3 gyro2's that should fit nicely with the stats that are out so far. and it will be a mean tanker that can shoot and tank at the same time the rohk will be a 200k+ sniper with tech1 gear, cheap in fittings and usage, awesome with tech2 gear it will propably pretty nasty at close range also. and yes it will be able to shoot and tank at the same time gallente will get the nastiest blasterboat ever with its higher speed and lower inertia it will be ontop of anyone really fast and then eat them up. havent seen the stats on this one but i assume it will be able to shoot and tank at the same time . then we have the Tier1 and Tier2 BS also where most can shoot and tank at the same time . ships that come to mind is megathron, raven, domi, phoon, tempest, apoc with pitiful dmg, geddon with smallest large guns. and then the amarr get the abbadon wich cant shoot and tank at the same time . the maelstrom will be able to tank better then the abbadon and shoot at the same time. im pretty sure that any other ship then amarr's will be able to do that. with the cap usage at 100% on amarr gun on that ship it will need 2 cap injectors to have a chance of staying alive. ah yes i forgot to mention that the stats also says that the abbadon will have the smallest cargobay also so it cant carry all the cap boosters it would actually need. with this configuration every abbadon pilot will need someone in a bestower to follow him around and hand him cap boosters every 2min. to bad that the bestower isnt bulletproof wich will get him killed right off the bat and then leaving the abbadon without cap boosters anyway. NOOOOOOOOOO forum ate my post :(
eLLioTT wave
Art of War Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.28 11:31:00 -
[1363 ]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 28/07/2006 11:34:02 I will try again without quoting someone... maybe forum be kind to me now... Why is everything encouraging Amarr to fit arty? You know the new favourite fleet ship will be T2 arty abaddon? Cap bonus is silly. We should change this to a 3rd bonnus on all Amarr ships = -50% pg requirement of lasers and double their pg req and half their cap use. This way you get amarr only fitting lasers, but make it a 3rd bonus if its that important to u CCP. Now for our 2 normal bonuses per ship, get creative. MAKE amarr the big tankers they should be with resist + repair bonuses. OR make them the big laser ships with rof + damage or damage + tracking ect. GET CREATIVE. Currently my crappy heavy missile skills do more damage than my t2 large lasers against most NPC's. WHY? Why should i train caldari bs just to keep up with 2 month old NPCer's? i dont want to and shouldnt have to. Do i really have to wait for amarr command ship to be able to keep up with noob caldari at NPC speed? Whats worse is damnation needing to fit 4x heavy t2 launchers (caldari weapons) to do so :P. Look at all the amarr great pvp ships, they are all drone / missile / nos boats, where is our laser superiority??? ONE IDEA to make lasers get their groove back: When sheilds get to 25% EM damage goes straight through to armor When armor gets to 25% EM damage goes straight through to structure This means the thermal side to lasers still hits sheild / armor as normal, but the em damage goes straight through it and starts damaging the layer below. This would behave like NPC structures do ifyou have noticed when you shoot them with lasers. Think about it. Every other race does EAN II tank with super high em but this would give us our edge back. We would WANT to use lasers instead of drones / missiles. A great tank we would still have trouble against, but once we get to 25% we are through. Example: vs Raven, Raven 3x invul2 sheild tank could get to 25% and hold, but armor falls out beneath them and structure dies while still at 25% sheild. vs Megathron 3x eanII tank, armor would still be hard to ***** but only has to get to 25% and then structure starts falling out beneath it. Thoughts??? Remember its just one idea but hopefully a good one PS i hope the 50 pages warrants a dev response :P
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.28 13:06:00 -
[1364 ]
Daily Bump-- Thanks goodness we're back on track discussing amarr stuff, I'd be very mad if this thread got locked because of some alt flaming. Anyways, Been thinking about the abaddon lately, even if ccp gave it 5 mids, 2 would have to have cap injectors in them & I just can't see them giving us enough cargo space to hold them. If we had 5 mids to go along with the 8 highs & 8 lows, then close to 700m3 or above cargo space....I'd actually be happy. Cause with the extra resistances, we woulnd't need to dual repair. So the ship would be able to fit what it needed. But alas, the easiest/most obvious answer is to reduce cap usage to all lasers, as ccp did to blasters, yet this seems to be too hard for them to imagine because it means changing the bonuses to all amarr ships with cap to guns bonuses. I just dont understand why this is soo hard for them to do. If they fixed the cap on lasers, we wouldn't need better crystals or anything else. We'd be able to use the slots that we normally fit cap relays/cap rechargers in with mods to help with damage or pvp abilities (web/scram/mwd). There are other ways to fix amarr, but this seems the easiest in my own mind. Peace out for the day.
gu o
Posted - 2006.07.28 15:03:00 -
[1365 ]
Bump- Well the abba will not be a bad ship imo. I will most certainly fit it with 1400's but hey it will be fun. Go and try to break that tank no cap drain from lasers will make a silly good tank. with 3 eanmII's and the ship bonus the thing will be close to uber as you can get. I just hope it has good drone bay as backup damage. LVL 5 drone interface FTW Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
eLLioTT wave
Art of War Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.28 16:37:00 -
[1366 ]
cmon what do ya'll think of my EM idea? And how are we goign to pull tuxford across from the ti3 BS thread to here??
xenorx
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.07.28 16:44:00 -
[1367 ]
Originally by: gu o Bump- Well the abba will not be a bad ship imo. I will most certainly fit it with 1400's but hey it will be fun. Go and try to break that tank no cap drain from lasers will make a silly good tank. with 3 eanmII's and the ship bonus the thing will be close to uber as you can get. I just hope it has good drone bay as backup damage. LVL 5 drone interface FTW That is exactly the problem IMO. Amarr are not supposed to be using 1400's on our ships. That's why all other Amarr ships have a laser cap use reduction bonus. Without that bonus they can not use thier own weapons. Im sure there are still a lot of us who remember having to use other weapons like 1400's on our ships back in 2003. It is a crime that we are still dealing with this problem 3 years later. There are so many things that need to be addressed for Amarr. Here are a couple for them to start with. 1. rebalance resistances across all races in shields and armor. Instead of 0% EM resistance to shields and 60% EM resistance to armor. Make it 30% EM shield and 30% EM armor resistance. This would address the long standing problem with the EAN II and the poor damage of primary EM damage lasers. 2. Reduce cap useage of lasers by 50% across the board and give amarr ships a real bonus instead. I am sure someone will flame away that lasers dont use ammo or something. To them I say that we do use ammo. Its called crystals and they cost a ****ing fortune. In some cases the ammo costs as much as the guns. As far as the Abaddon goes it is going to be either feast or famine with this ship. It will either be so overpowered that no one will want to fly anything else or it will be such a piece of crap that you will never see one in space. Tux knows this and that is why he says the Abaddon really scares the hell out of him. Oh and what is up with the looks of the Abaddon? It looks great except someone forgot to but the nose on it. Looks like someone broke the head off of it and forgot to glue it back on.No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Morkus Rex
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.28 17:07:00 -
[1368 ]
Edited by: Morkus Rex on 28/07/2006 17:10:26 Originally by: xenorx Oh and what is up with the looks of the Abaddon? It looks great except someone forgot to but the nose on it. Looks like someone broke the head off of it and forgot to glue it back on. So it is a true Amarr ship... like the Apoc that looks like some big pieces are missing _____________________________________________ Our users will know fear and cover before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.07.28 17:16:00 -
[1369 ]
Originally by: Morkus Rex Edited by: Morkus Rex on 28/07/2006 17:10:26 Originally by: xenorx Oh and what is up with the looks of the Abaddon? It looks great except someone forgot to but the nose on it. Looks like someone broke the head off of it and forgot to glue it back on. So it is a true Amarr ship... like the Apoc that looks like some big pieces are missing it wouldnt be amarr if it looked anything but ugly but bling purifier: bent iteron maller: big nose omen: pointy nose guardian (forget t1 name as never see them in space): toaster arbitrator: squashed toaster prophecy: ugly duckling geddon: looks like a***** apoc: missing parts ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.28 17:17:00 -
[1370 ]
Originally by: Morkus Rex Edited by: Morkus Rex on 28/07/2006 17:10:26 Originally by: xenorx Oh and what is up with the looks of the Abaddon? It looks great except someone forgot to but the nose on it. Looks like someone broke the head off of it and forgot to glue it back on. So it is a true Amarr ship... like the Apoc that looks like some big pieces are missing Yes, this is a clear indication that Amarr ships are broken... some of the ships are actually missing parts of their hull!
Stephar
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.28 17:30:00 -
[1371 ]
Edited by: Stephar on 28/07/2006 17:31:21 Originally by: Cosmo Raata But alas, the easiest/most obvious answer is to reduce cap usage to all lasers, as ccp did to blasters, yet this seems to be too hard for them to imagine because it means changing the bonuses to all amarr ships with cap to guns bonuses. I just dont understand why this is soo hard for them to do. If they fixed the cap on lasers, we wouldn't need better crystals or anything else. We'd be able to use the slots that we normally fit cap relays/cap rechargers in with mods to help with damage or pvp abilities (web/scram/mwd). There are other ways to fix amarr, but this seems the easiest in my own mind. I was thinking this as well. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume that the -10% cap reduction for energy turrets is equivalent to a +5% damage bonus for projectiles/hybrids. So CCP could make a blanket change of decreasing laser cap usage by 50% and damage by 25%. Change all the -10% cap reduction bonuses to +5% energy turret damage bonuses, and all Amarrian ships would have exactly the same damage/DPS as before. After this change, ships would have the following bonuses:Gankers : Omen/Armageddon = +5% energy turret damage, +5% energy turret ROF Executioner = +10% energy turret damage Coercer = +5% energy turret damage, +10% energy turret trackingTankers : Punisher/Maller/Prophecy = +5% energy turret damage, +5% armor resist Abaddon = +5% energy turret ROF, +5% armor resistUtility : Arbitrator = +5% tracking disruptor effectiveness, +10% drone hp/damage/mining Crucifier = +5% tracking disruptor effectiveness, +5% energy turret damage Inquisitor = +10% EM missle damage, +5% kinetic/thermal/explosive missle damage Augoror = +10% armor hps, +10% energy transfer Apocalypse = +5% energy turret damage, +5% maximum cap A few common themes can be seen. The first tier Amarrian ship (frigate/cruiser/battleship) is typically a ganker, and the top tier is typically a tanker. The Coercer (destroyer) is more of a ganker, and the Prophecy (battlecruiser) is more of a tanker. There's a lot of variation for the middle tier ships, with all sorts of different bonuses. None of them are really made for ganking or tanking, so you might as well drop the +5% damage bonus from each of them to give them flavor. There's a lot of different ways you could go about assigning new bonuses, but here's how I would personally do it (just as one possibility):Gankers :Executioner /Omen/Armageddon = +5% energy turret damage, +5% energy turret ROF Coercer = +5% energy turret damage, +10% energy turret trackingTankers : Punisher/Maller/Prophecy/Abaddon = +5% energy turret damage, +5% armor resistUtility : Arbitrator/Crucifier = +5% tracking disruptor effectiveness, +10% drone hp/damage/mining Inquisitor = +10% EM missle damage, +5% kinetic/thermal/explosive missle damage Augoror = +10% armor hps, +10% energy transferApocalypse = two completely new bonuses I've put the ships with changed bonuses in italics. These changes would give you a solid ganker/tanker for each ship class, with identical bonuses. I also merged the Arbitrator and Crucifier... having a frigate drone ship would add a bit of versatility. I'm not really sure what to do with the Apoc. Its massive grid and cap would probably have to be readjusted, but it would be neat to see it made into some sort of drone/missle boat. I'm partial to missles myself, but it may be more logical for it to become a drone carrier like the Arbitrator. Regardless, since you already have a clear ganker and tanker in the Geddon and Abaddon, the opportunity exists to make it into something unique. Anyways, my main point was this: if you reduce laser capacitor use by 50% and damage by 25%, and change all -10% energy turret cap bonuses to +5% damage bonuses, it's a lot easier to make balancing adjustments to Amarrian ships.
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.07.28 18:43:00 -
[1372 ]
problem is there is no change for most of the ships that are screeewed up this way.. if u change the cap by -50% it would allow other races to use the guns, which is one of the main resons ccp did the cap bonus's. and w/ the bonus's u suggest it would indeed help the abba but all the rest of the ships (that have been screeeewed for ever) will still be screeeewed. we could maybe change the limiting factor of lasers to pg since that is already soo screwed up for us, where lasers will have 25% mor pg fitting req's (just about there now) and increase the pg on amarr ships by that much, but here u run into problems of amarr fitting other ppls weapons again just because they have so much more pg, so they could fit the 425's or 1400's with great ease and still fit their tank etc... this is a hard problem to fix and its routed allllll the way back to the begining of the game, where amarr were great to fly and they did have higher dmg than other races but there were some drawbacks also, mainly in the versitality of their ships... but when we were nerfed mainly the dmg factor was nerfed so it left us w/ the limited ship setup/uses and barely average dmg. if u suggest -35% cap reduction and changing that bonus to 5% dmg for lasers/lvl i think it would work, if we leave everything else the way it is now. on paper our dmg is ok, but in practice it is sub par to others, so changing the way bonus's are written, that dont increase amarr usability wont help us. (sorry if i sound harsh my coffee was burnt this morning : /
Sniser
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.07.28 20:02:00 -
[1373 ]
damage bonus could work only if instead 50% cap reduction was only 25% or so. Damage need be justified with high cap instead insane cap
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.28 20:14:00 -
[1374 ]
Well, About the worries of other races using them??? WHO CARES....Besides, why would they want to? Tach II uses 95 energy with no bonuses, if it had a 50% reduction it would use 47.5, which is 17.5 more energy than a 425 II. Our guns suck for damage, use too much powergrid, & would have no bonuses for other races & lack the falloff many of the others need/require. Only positive to using them is the tracking speed. A 50% reduction is very in line. I dont see any Issues with this suggestion, as I've thought it was the best/easiest way to fix amarr. I dont think every ship should get damage bonuses as someone suggested, mine are as follows (I wont include frigs though) Apoc : 5% resistance per level or 10% repair amount Geddy: 10m3 drone space per level ( no damage bonus) Maller/Sac: 10% optimal Range per level (Sac should also be changed back to a missle boat, but with bonuses that make sense & armor staying as is if not a tad more) Omen/Zealot: 5 or 10% bonus to velocity per level ( we need some faster ships, these would be ideal canidates) Arbi/Curse/Pilgrim: Only prob on them is Powergrid, boost it by 200-250. Augoror: Up hitpoint bonus to 15% per level. Absolution: Either Damage bonus or optimal Range bonus. Damnation: Either give it a damage bonus or make it a missle boat, khanid can exist as missle ships if they are given proper bonuses. They never were before, CCP just gave up on them. Prophecy: 5% damage per level. Coercer: Optimal Range bonus. These are just ideas off the top of my head. Its easy to come up with them & not overpower our Race. Tux must realize this. The biggest prob is we all have 1 bonus, cause that cap bonus to our guns is plain BS!
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.28 20:32:00 -
[1375 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Well, About the worries of other races using them??? WHO CARES....Besides, why would they want to? Tach II uses 95 energy with no bonuses, if it had a 50% reduction it would use 47.5, which is 17.5 more energy than a 425 II. Our guns suck for damage, use too much powergrid, & would have no bonuses for other races & lack the falloff many of the others need/require. Only positive to using them is the tracking speed... The problem here is that the Tach is not the counterpart to the 425mm. The Megabeam is. Just like there is no counterpart for the Neutron blaster (Ion Blaster is the counterpart to Megapulse) the Tachyon Beam has no counterpart on the other races longrange guns. Anyway. The raw laser damage and the "useless" 50% cap bonus are fine . Compare a 425 with a 25% damagebonus with a megabeam with a 50% cap bonus. You get pretty much identical values in cap/sec and dps. The problem is the laser damage after resistances. Increasing laser dps is IMO the wrong way to solve this. For example, this opens a whole can of worms for laser damage vs shield and structure.
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.07.28 20:36:00 -
[1376 ]
thats not what i was saying.. tho now i read my post it doesnt even look like what i wanted to say w/ a 50% reduction in cap across teh board and a 25% reduction in damage for all lasers and then the bonus of 5% / lvl, changed to a 5% dmg /lvl is what steph was saying, this is exactly the same as it is now same damage and same cap usage as it is atm, only written different, this doesnt help lasers in the least, only the abbadon this was the meaning of my post
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.28 20:41:00 -
[1377 ]
Edited by: Dixon on 28/07/2006 20:43:14 ...
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.28 20:42:00 -
[1378 ]
Edited by: Dixon on 28/07/2006 20:42:31 Originally by: Kardim thats not what i was saying.. tho now i read my post it doesnt even look like what i wanted to say w/ a 50% reduction in cap across teh board and a 25% reduction in damage for all lasers and then the bonus of 5% / lvl, changed to a 5% dmg /lvl is what steph was saying, this is exactly the same as it is now same damage and same cap usage as it is atm, only written different, this doesnt help lasers in the least, only the abbadon this was the meaning of my post Yeah, or we could just change the Abaddons RoF bonus and make it 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use... the effect would be almost identical
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.28 20:47:00 -
[1379 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 28/07/2006 20:49:54 Originally by: Kardim thats not what i was saying.. tho now i read my post it doesnt even look like what i wanted to say w/ a 50% reduction in cap across teh board and a 25% reduction in damage for all lasers and then the bonus of 5% / lvl, changed to a 5% dmg /lvl is what steph was saying, this is exactly the same as it is now same damage and same cap usage as it is atm, only written different, this doesnt help lasers in the least, only the abbadon this was the meaning of my post Ah, yes. But then beam lasers would be basically identical to railguns current stats without ship boni: megabeam: 0.33 DM/sec, 7.22 cap/sec 425mm: 0.29 DM/sec, 3.14 cap/sec with 20% less damage (which is the counterpart to 25% more damage, 0.8 * 1.25 -> 1) and 50% less cap: megabeam: 0.27 DM/sec, 3.61 cap/sec 425mm: 0.29 DM/sec, 3.14 cap/sec current stats with ship boni: megabeam: 0.33 DM/sec, 3.61 cap/sec 425mm: 0.36 DM/sec, 3.14 cap/sec Rails are still a bit betetr, but have to reload, too. And the amarr dps ships get a ROF bonus, which boosts their raw dps over rails (on cost of higher cap usage though).
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.07.28 20:48:00 -
[1380 ]
good last few posts... Originally by: Kardim so they could fit the 425's or 1400's with great ease and still fit their tank etc... which ofc still doesnt solve the problem of amarr using other weapon systems... no one else uses lasers because they suck, even if the cap was the same as a hybrid people wouldnt use them because of the damage type this game keeps pushing towards "out of the box" ship setups yet in doing so pushes amarr to go even further into the box ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Jhenda
Posted - 2006.07.28 20:52:00 -
[1381 ]
Originally by: Dixon Edited by: Dixon on 28/07/2006 20:42:31 Originally by: Kardim thats not what i was saying.. tho now i read my post it doesnt even look like what i wanted to say w/ a 50% reduction in cap across teh board and a 25% reduction in damage for all lasers and then the bonus of 5% / lvl, changed to a 5% dmg /lvl is what steph was saying, this is exactly the same as it is now same damage and same cap usage as it is atm, only written different, this doesnt help lasers in the least, only the abbadon this was the meaning of my post Yeah, or we could just change the Abaddons RoF bonus and make it 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use... the effect would be almost identical No it wouldnt it would have 25% less rof.
xenorx
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.07.28 21:06:00 -
[1382 ]
Originally by: Morkus Rex Edited by: Morkus Rex on 28/07/2006 17:10:26 Originally by: xenorx Oh and what is up with the looks of the Abaddon? It looks great except someone forgot to but the nose on it. Looks like someone broke the head off of it and forgot to glue it back on. So it is a true Amarr ship... like the Apoc that looks like some big pieces are missing I always thought the Apoc looked like a cruise ship turned upside down. I even named one of mine the SS Titanic.No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.07.28 21:29:00 -
[1383 ]
no i must correct u, lasers dont have a built in dmg bonus, they used to before the laser/pulse reworking now the only benefit to lasers is no ammo which is fine if you are on a super npc kick in 0.0 for 3 months and wont make it back to a station, but that is the only real benefit.. personally i think the problem is from when they nerfed lasers, they listened to the whiners and went overboard and overnerfed us, so weve been down ever since. i didnt say anything cause honestly i get sick of reading the forums w/ 90% of the ppl are trolls, flamers, and ugly little gits. (not talking about most of u guys in this thread ur not so bad) rails have better dps and cap use at the same time so that kinda negates the comparison maybe while they are small numbers it doesnt seem like much, but after a few minutes of fireing they add up quick... and this is before the resist kick in...
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.28 21:32:00 -
[1384 ]
Originally by: Kardim no i must correct u, lasers dont have a built in dmg bonus, they used to before the laser/pulse reworking They have. Look at the stats. I typed them in plain view, for gods sake.
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.07.28 21:51:00 -
[1385 ]
wether or not they have a built in damage mod is besides the point, they still do **** damage ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Stephar
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.28 21:58:00 -
[1386 ]
Originally by: Aramendel In short: laser could use a slight (in the area of 5%) damage buff, but exept that they are in the raw dps and capusage really fine compared to other races guns. People percieve the -50% cap bonus as "weak" because it does not give them more damage like a 25% damage bonus would but fail to realize that lasers have this bonus already build in (most of it, anyways, as said, it could use a slight buff). The -50% cap bonus isn't weak at all. But it is a crutch... Amarrian ships don't make lasers better, they make them usable. The only ship which even gets a laser damage bonus is the Executioner. What I'd like to see is CCP make lasers "usable," and then give Amarr a racial bonus to them. A 50% cap and 25% damage reduction would bring them in line with other weapons, and then you could apply damage bonuses as needed. As it currently stands, every Amarrian ship with a 50% energy turret cap reduction is actually getting a damage bonus in disguise. Lasers are basically unusable without this bonus. CCP is forced to slap this cap reduction bonus on every Amarrian ship because if they don't, nobody would use lasers. So you end up with a fleet of ships bearing only one unique bonus, as the other is filled by the generic cap reduction bonus. What has Tux worried about the Abaddon is CCP doesn't know what will happen to a laser-gunship when the 50% cap reduction is taken away. It's going to be overpowered when it has cap remaining, and completely gimped when out. This is because lasers are the most bizarrely balanced weapon in EVE. Every other weapon system has a base power rating (hybrids/projectiles/missles/drones), and racial ships are given bonuses to enchance these ratings. Lasers have an overpowered base, but at a staggering cap requirement. Lasers don't get better as you progress higher in Amarrian ship skill, they just eat less cap. I think this reverse balancing act is making the race difficult to balance versus other races. By reducing the cap by 50% and damage by 25% on all lasers, they will finally be in line with other racial weapons, and should be easier to compare. Replace the old 10% cap reduction with a 5% damage bonus per level on the Geddon, and it will use the same amount of cap as before and will produce identical DPS. People would no longer be able to talk about the "hidden laser damage bonus" as it would have the same relative base as other weapon platforms. And since lasers have now been made "usable," you could then start assigning certain Amarrian ships unique bonuses. Like give the Prophecy a bonus to optimal? Or the Apoc a bonus to tracking? Heck, you could even give them their old bonus back with the +5% damage per level. But at least you would have options.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.28 22:08:00 -
[1387 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 28/07/2006 22:14:50 Originally by: south24 wether or not they have a built in damage mod is besides the point, they still do **** damage Yes. But this is not the problem of lasers themselves. It's a problem of the resistances. If you would boost laser dps so we do about the same vs armor like other races we would deal considerably more vs shields and structure. Or generally vs an untanked ship. What the problem is are, as said, the resistances. Here the high armor resistances and ironically the low (speak: nonexistant) shield resistances are hurting us both. Why? because many shieldtankers see the giant EM hole in their resistances and use an EM specific harderner to close it and then invul fields to rise all resistances, making EM often the 2nd worst damage source against shields. The best suggestion I saw there was to change the standard armor EM resistance to 40% and boost the standard shield EM resistance to 20%. This alone would help lasers BIG TIME, perhaps even balance them completely (on top of said 5% dps boost perhaps). Originally by: Stephar A 50% cap and 25% damage reduction would bring them in line with other weapons, and then you could apply damage bonuses as needed. Firstly (again - do I really have to repeat myself over and over and over? ): 20% damage reduction. If you reduce their damage by 25% (aka 1 * 0.75 = 0.75) and then boost their damage by 25% by a ship bonus you will get LESS dps like they do now (0.75 * 1.25 -> 0.9375). Secondly, this would change nothing (nada. zero. zip. zilch.) with the general laser problems. The *only* ship effected by this would be the aba. Apart from that the only thing which would do this otherwise would be to replace the "the -50% cap bonus is useless" with "lasers do too little damage" whines.
Stephar
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.28 22:10:00 -
[1388 ]
Originally by: Aramendel The best suggestion I saw there was to change the standard armor EM resistance to 40% and boost the standard shield EM resistance to 20%. This alone would help lasers BIG TIME, perhaps even balance them completely (on top of said 5% dps boost perhaps). That would be a great and easy fix.
Sniser
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.07.28 22:10:00 -
[1389 ]
Edited by: Sniser on 28/07/2006 22:10:27 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 28/07/2006 21:53:16 Originally by: Kardim no i must correct u, lasers dont have a built in dmg bonus, they used to before the laser/pulse reworking They have. Look at the stats. I typed them in plain view, for gods sake. To be specific, a t1 425mm does without skills with AM 13.8 raw dps, a Megabeam with MF 16 raw dps. It's, as said, no 25% bonus (16% in fact), but it is a damage bonus nontheless. Also, rails have to reload now and then which pushes their dps down a bit over time. As said, give lasers a little boost (like 5% more damage) and their dps over a longer time will be identical with rails. And, to repeat myself (again), there are laser ships with the cap bonus *and* a ROF bonus. There are no rail ships with a ROF bonus, all their have is +damage. damage difference is because rails have more range than beams. More range less is damage
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.28 22:14:00 -
[1390 ]
Quote: To be specific, a t1 425mm does without skills with AM 13.8 raw dps, a Megabeam with MF 16 raw dps. It's, as said, no 25% bonus (16% in fact), but it is a damage bonus nontheless. Why do you call this a built-in bonus instead of just a difference? Rails have 18% more optimal range and 50% more falloff, is that a built-in bonus? These are two different types of weapons with different range and damage output... they are just different...
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.28 22:20:00 -
[1391 ]
Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Aramendel In short: laser could use a slight (in the area of 5%) damage buff, but exept that they are in the raw dps and capusage really fine compared to other races guns. People percieve the -50% cap bonus as "weak" because it does not give them more damage like a 25% damage bonus would but fail to realize that lasers have this bonus already build in (most of it, anyways, as said, it could use a slight buff). The -50% cap bonus isn't weak at all. But it is a crutch... Amarrian ships don't make lasers better, they make them usable. The only ship which even gets a laser damage bonus is the Executioner. What I'd like to see is CCP make lasers "usable," and then give Amarr a racial bonus to them. A 50% cap and 25% damage reduction would bring them in line with other weapons, and then you could apply damage bonuses as needed. As it currently stands, every Amarrian ship with a 50% energy turret cap reduction is actually getting a damage bonus in disguise. Lasers are basically unusable without this bonus. CCP is forced to slap this cap reduction bonus on every Amarrian ship because if they don't, nobody would use lasers. So you end up with a fleet of ships bearing only one unique bonus, as the other is filled by the generic cap reduction bonus. What has Tux worried about the Abaddon is CCP doesn't know what will happen to a laser-gunship when the 50% cap reduction is taken away. It's going to be overpowered when it has cap remaining, and completely gimped when out. This is because lasers are the most bizarrely balanced weapon in EVE. Every other weapon system has a base power rating (hybrids/projectiles/missles/drones), and racial ships are given bonuses to enchance these ratings. Lasers have an overpowered base, but at a staggering cap requirement. Lasers don't get better as you progress higher in Amarrian ship skill, they just eat less cap. I think this reverse balancing act is making the race difficult to balance versus other races. By reducing the cap by 50% and damage by 25% on all lasers, they will finally be in line with other racial weapons, and should be easier to compare. Replace the old 10% cap reduction with a 5% damage bonus per level on the Geddon, and it will use the same amount of cap as before and will produce identical DPS. People would no longer be able to talk about the "hidden laser damage bonus" as it would have the same relative base as other weapon platforms. And since lasers have now been made "usable," you could then start assigning certain Amarrian ships unique bonuses. Like give the Prophecy a bonus to optimal? Or the Apoc a bonus to tracking? Heck, you could even give them their old bonus back with the +5% damage per level. But at least you would have options. Yeah, but if you take 25% off amarr damage you will have to give the ships a 33.333% damage bonus to balance it out. nerf: 0.75*3=2.25 bonus: 1.333333*2.25=3 ... you suggested:1.25*2.25=2.8125 which would leave amarr ships with less damage, thus not helping at all. And if you don't give them the damage back Amarr ships will be pathetic, the lasers high damage output is what makes the race unique. Giving a optimal or tracking bonus would simply not be enough to make up for the loss of DPS.
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.28 22:22:00 -
[1392 ]
Originally by: Dixon Why do you call this a built-in bonus instead of just a difference? Rails have 18% more optimal range and 50% more falloff, is that a built-in bonus? Lasers have slightly better tracking instead as tradeof for a slightly worse optimal. And laser do not need a big falloff because we can switch ammo instantly. Rails cannot. Originally by: Sniser damage difference is because rails have more range than beams. More range less is damage And lasers have better tracking. Better tracking = better hits = more damage. It's really not that different to better range.
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.28 22:29:00 -
[1393 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Dixon Why do you call this a built-in bonus instead of just a difference? Rails have 18% more optimal range and 50% more falloff, is that a built-in bonus? Lasers have slightly better tracking instead as tradeof for a slightly worse optimal. And laser do not need a big falloff because we can switch ammo instantly. Rails cannot. Originally by: Sniser damage difference is because rails have more range than beams. More range less is damage And lasers have better tracking. Better tracking = better hits = more damage. It's really not that different to better range. No lasers NEED higher tracking because less optimal = more transversal. Better tracking is not equal to better range, it's different. Both have their own qualities and shortcomings. They are just different. Just like the damage 'bonus' on lasers is 16% the cap usage with full skills is also 16% higher.
Stephar
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.28 22:38:00 -
[1394 ]
Edited by: Stephar on 28/07/2006 22:42:41 Originally by: Dixon Yeah, but if you take 25% off amarr damage you will have to give the ships a 33.333% damage bonus to balance it out. nerf: 0.75*3=2.25 bonus: 1.333333*2.25=3 ... you suggested:1.25*2.25=2.8125 which would leave amarr ships with less damage, thus not helping at all. And if you don't give them the damage back Amarr ships will be pathetic, the lasers high damage output is what makes the race unique. Giving a optimal or tracking bonus would simply not be enough to make up for the loss of DPS. You are correct. Since the new value would be lower, you'd need a bigger boost to bring it back up. So lower them by 20%, then boost it by 25%. And yes, DPS would be a bit gimped on ships that didn't get the +5% damage bonus as a replacement. But do we really need every ship to be a ganker? We already have 3 battleships with the hidden damage bonus (laser cap reduction)... I don't think it'd be the end of the world if we were to change one of them to something a bit more eccentric. I can already equip a Geddon to do basically anything an Apoc can do, and wouldn't have a problem if they gave the Apoc a more unique role. My idea here doesn't exactly address the current balance issues directly. It's just something that I think would make balancing discussions easier, as well as open the possibility up for giving some Amarrian boats a bit more utility. EDIT: OK, we technically won't have three battleships with the hidden damage bonus. Forgot that the Abaddon has a rate of fire bonus rather than cap reduction (*getting sleepy*).
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.28 22:51:00 -
[1395 ]
Originally by: Stephar Edited by: Stephar on 28/07/2006 22:42:41 Originally by: Dixon Yeah, but if you take 25% off amarr damage you will have to give the ships a 33.333% damage bonus to balance it out. nerf: 0.75*3=2.25 bonus: 1.333333*2.25=3 ... you suggested:1.25*2.25=2.8125 which would leave amarr ships with less damage, thus not helping at all. And if you don't give them the damage back Amarr ships will be pathetic, the lasers high damage output is what makes the race unique. Giving a optimal or tracking bonus would simply not be enough to make up for the loss of DPS. You are correct. Since the new value would be lower, you'd need a bigger boost to bring it back up. So lower them by 20%, then boost it by 25%. And yes, DPS would be a bit gimped on ships that didn't get the +5% damage bonus as a replacement. But do we really need every ship to be a ganker? We already have 3 battleships with the hidden damage bonus (laser cap reduction)... I don't think it'd be the end of the world if we were to change one of them to something a bit more eccentric. I can already equip a Geddon to do basically anything an Apoc can do, and wouldn't have a problem if they gave the Apoc a more unique role. My idea here doesn't exactly address the current balance issues directly. It's just something that I think would make balancing discussions easier, as well as open the possibility up for giving some Amarrian boats a bit more utility. EDIT: OK, we technically won't have three battleships with the hidden damage bonus. Forgot that the Abaddon has a rate of fire bonus rather than cap reduction (*getting sleepy*). The thing is that amarr ships are extremely gun-oriented, so any gimping of laser damage (or anything really) makes them almost useless. Currently we have only one ship that doesn't count on lasers as it's primary (in most cases only) damage output and that is the arbitrator. I don't think the problem is with the cap reduction bonus, I think it makes amarr ships very special in practice. We could turn to those with useless bonuses if you want more unique roles... like the Apocs 5% max capacitor. Give the apoc a 10% NOS bonus and there you have a useful ship with a unique role.
Stephar
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.28 22:54:00 -
[1396 ]
Originally by: Dixon We could turn to those with useless bonuses if you want more unique roles... like the Apocs 5% max capacitor. Give the apoc a 10% NOS bonus and there you have a useful ship with a unique role. Ah, that'd be an interesting bonus.
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.28 23:49:00 -
[1397 ]
Not with the Nos Nerf coming, Keep the nossing to the Curse/Pilgrim.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.29 11:11:00 -
[1398 ]
Then it will be one down, 2-3 to go. Would the poster above me please stand up?
Brother Tycho
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.29 11:42:00 -
[1399 ]
Ship Fixes Geddon keeps currant bonuses gains 1 launcher and a little CPU. Apoc changes to -10% Cap use and 10% opt range. Abbadon changes to -10% cap use and 5% resists with 8/5/7 slot layout. thats 3 roles we can fill close range Gank, long ranged fleet, and mid ranged tank.
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
Posted - 2006.07.29 11:51:00 -
[1400 ]
Originally by: Brother Tycho Ship Fixes Geddon keeps currant bonuses gains 1 launcher and a little CPU. Apoc changes to -10% Cap use and 10% opt range. Abbadon changes to -10% cap use and 5% resists with 8/5/7 slot layout. thats 3 roles we can fill close range Gank, long ranged fleet, and mid ranged tank. How about taking away the Apocs lazer cap bonus and replacing it with the armour resist bonus, leaving the extra cap bonus alone? That way the Apoc can be the supreme tanker at last, as it was meant to be. In a fleet Apocs could supply power to the long range ganking ships, keeping them firing for fleets on the move.
Brother Tycho
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.29 12:11:00 -
[1401 ]
Originally by: Madcat Adams Originally by: Brother Tycho Ship Fixes Geddon keeps currant bonuses gains 1 launcher and a little CPU. Apoc changes to -10% Cap use and 10% opt range. Abbadon changes to -10% cap use and 5% resists with 8/5/7 slot layout. thats 3 roles we can fill close range Gank, long ranged fleet, and mid ranged tank. How about taking away the Apocs lazer cap bonus and replacing it with the armour resist bonus, leaving the extra cap bonus alone? That way the Apoc can be the supreme tanker at last, as it was meant to be. In a fleet Apocs could supply power to the long range ganking ships, keeping them firing for fleets on the move. sweet the century old pride of the amarr fleet reduced to cap transfers and projectiles.
Perry
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.29 12:17:00 -
[1402 ]
Perhaps Projectil Weapons are too good No Cap, less fitting, not that lower damage (nothing a dmg mod cant fix), all dmg-types (with range restrictions yes, but the best types have useable ranges anyway). Just too tempting to not use them. Shame on Lasers, shame on Devs who think amarr need just another 08/15 turret tanker... And another. And another. And so on. Im sick of 3 Medslots while Caldari get all kinds of fittings weapons and roles, Gallente get many 1v1 kings. Only Minmatar compete in worst ships for the job.
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.29 12:22:00 -
[1403 ]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 29/07/2006 12:22:42 Originally by: Perry Perhaps Projectil Weapons are too good No Cap, less fitting, not that lower damage (nothing a dmg mod cant fix), all dmg-types (with range restrictions yes, but the best types have useable ranges anyway). Just too tempting to not use them. Shame on Lasers, shame on Devs who think amarr need just another 08/15 turret tanker... And another. And another. And so on. Im sick of 3 Medslots while Caldari get all kinds of fittings weapons and roles, Gallente get many 1v1 kings. Only Minmatar compete in worst ships for the job. I think laser damage is at the top of the dps charts, unless you compete with close range masters like blasters on a megathron. Projectiles are usually at the bottom. So no, projectiles dont have good damage, but the minnie ships usually get dps/rof bonuses to make them useful. Projectiles on other ships and you probably lose something like 30% of your damage compared to lasers (just guessing here, someone can run the numbers if they want). DPS isnt really that important either... its the resists. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
eLLioTT wave
Art of War Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.29 12:33:00 -
[1404 ]
i have now decided to keep posting here until we get to 50 and receiver our dev response. Come on we are only a page and a bit away!
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
Posted - 2006.07.29 13:14:00 -
[1405 ]
Originally by: Brother Tycho Originally by: Madcat Adams Originally by: Brother Tycho Ship Fixes Geddon keeps currant bonuses gains 1 launcher and a little CPU. Apoc changes to -10% Cap use and 10% opt range. Abbadon changes to -10% cap use and 5% resists with 8/5/7 slot layout. thats 3 roles we can fill close range Gank, long ranged fleet, and mid ranged tank. How about taking away the Apocs lazer cap bonus and replacing it with the armour resist bonus, leaving the extra cap bonus alone? That way the Apoc can be the supreme tanker at last, as it was meant to be. In a fleet Apocs could supply power to the long range ganking ships, keeping them firing for fleets on the move. sweet the century old pride of the amarr fleet reduced to cap transfers and projectiles. It already runs the tank better with projectiles sadly. Changing out the extra cap for range hurts it's tanking, and destroys it's pve role. Don't we already have a tach platform in the Geddon? Two long range BBs would be a bit redundant. Then the Abaddon may well be a third tach packing ship, hoping not. Not that I dislike tach boats, but some variety would be nice. =)
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.29 13:19:00 -
[1406 ]
Good Morning all, Time for my daily Post again. No big thoughts here, except the same old we need 2 real bonuses, not 1 bonus plus another to make our ships usable. Hoping for a dev response soon, otherwise we'll have to get to 100 pages. Which I will do if no response still ensues. /emote Wishes for Apoc with uber tanking ability, Geddon with extra drone space, Abbadon with a mix of both.
ud kesk
Posted - 2006.07.29 13:26:00 -
[1407 ]
give them explosives..no wait..i'm minmatar..nah f**k it giv em explosives
Brother Tycho
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.29 13:35:00 -
[1408 ]
The question im gonna ask is wouild dropping every ships armor em resists 10% and upping there explosive 10% help? maybe upping sheild em resists 10% and dropping there explosive 10%.
Stephar
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.29 13:43:00 -
[1409 ]
Originally by: Brother Tycho The question im gonna ask is wouild dropping every ships armor em resists 10% and upping there explosive 10% help? maybe upping sheild em resists 10% and dropping there explosive 10%. Yeah, that would definitely help.
korrey
Posted - 2006.07.29 13:49:00 -
[1410 ]
So we turn all ships to ammar shield tankers now? All that did was make sure we couldnt get even past enemies shields now... :P Fixes to make the ships what they're meant to be- Apoc: Cap bonus, 5% resistance bonus Geddon: Its good...amarr just needs more damage Abaddon: whatever...just give it something nice to shoot stuff with.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.29 14:00:00 -
[1411 ]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave i have now decided to keep posting here until we get to 50 and receiver our dev response. Come on we are only a page and a bit away! Cant say I share your optimism. Would the poster above me please stand up?
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
Posted - 2006.07.29 14:37:00 -
[1412 ]
Edited by: Madcat Adams on 29/07/2006 14:37:55 Just had a wacky idea.... Skill: Advanced X Energy Turret manipulation reduce cap use of energy turret that requires X specialization by 2% per rank. Make the required the spec skill for the turret class, remove bonus from ship to replace with something else. Is more cap consumption at first, but with skill points invested, lazers end up using less energy than currently. Also incourages people to get the skills for tech 2 lazers. Similarly a skill for Armour repairers to reduce their cap consumption by 2% per rank would be sweet. I'd take 1.5% per rank even.
KillerLU
Sanction.
Posted - 2006.07.29 15:14:00 -
[1413 ]
Why does everyone has a problem with this Cap bonus? Only problem I can see is that without it lasers get useless. The damage output of lasers is the highest of any other turret (except blasters) so it don't 'really' need a damage bonus. The problem is rather the high EM resistance of the ships. Even more damage bonus would make them a bit overpowered in T2 ship fights imo. hmmm and a bump.
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.07.29 16:42:00 -
[1414 ]
imo the only real way we can solve this problem is by math... to trullyyy and justly prove that amarr sucks we will need to do the math to prove it. where u use base resists on all ships and maybe a highest and lowest ammo comparison on short and long range guns, vs each ship equivelant of every other race for each gun and see how many seconds it takes to kill each ship (w/o reppers ofc) then maybe we can see where amarr stacks up mathematically to this. i started to do this with the tracking page, but got about 200 screenshots and nowhere to put them up, i think pure math would be easier to read also. i will try to find the time to do some of this work but i doubt i will have the free time to do all the ships in game.
Tsun Lao
Posted - 2006.07.29 18:12:00 -
[1415 ]
Originally by: KillerLU Why does everyone has a problem with this Cap bonus? Only problem I can see is that without it lasers get useless. The damage output of lasers is the highest of any other turret (except blasters Exactly. How come gallente ships dont get cap bonus?
Dristra
Posted - 2006.07.29 22:56:00 -
[1416 ]
maybe because the cap drain is not as severe then again i do not think the megathron would be very good if you replaced the dmg bonus with a cap reduction bonus...
Jake Noble
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.29 23:47:00 -
[1417 ]
One thing that has baffled me is that Amarr's primary EW bonus is tracking disruption. Why is this the case when our supposed opponents, the Minmatar rely on falloff range more than optimal?
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.30 00:31:00 -
[1418 ]
Originally by: Jake Noble One thing that has baffled me is that Amarr's primary EW bonus is tracking disruption. Why is this the case when our supposed opponents, the Minmatar rely on falloff range more than optimal? Most racial EW seems to counter it's own race. Amarr rely almost entirely on guns for their damage output and fire mainly in optimal, hence tracking disruptors. Minmatar use their speed and low sig to avoid getting hit, their racial EW is webifiers and target painters. Currently the only way to stop Caldari missile spammers is to use Caldari ECM-boats. And Gallente... well I don't know really where they get those dampeners from ... but they are basically usefull against anything.
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.30 06:00:00 -
[1419 ]
Forgot to make the bump of the day. Fix amarr please.
TribalBleb
Turbulent
Posted - 2006.07.30 06:23:00 -
[1420 ]
this sucks, the new tier 3 bs is going to be another borning same old story gunship like any other amarr ship except the arby/pilgrim/curse but those ships will get nerfed when they nerf nosses, after that amarr ships are totally ****** i guess... comon ccp at least admit something is wrong here
Hijara
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.30 06:48:00 -
[1421 ]
I think the Abbadon is fine as it is. judging from the video it looks like a tach boat. Which im ok with. and anyone who whines about it is still going to get one
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.30 08:32:00 -
[1422 ]
Yeah, because we are using what we can fly!! I mean, we're choosing the less of the 2 evils now: Apoc vs Geddy. When Abaddon is released we'll be choosing the less of the 3 evils.
Morkus Rex
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.30 09:34:00 -
[1423 ]
Would actually like to se a fitting like 8 turrets/4 launchers... why do Amarr ships only get a 1 launcher slot? _____________________________________________ Our users will know fear and cover before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.30 09:59:00 -
[1424 ]
Originally by: Morkus Rex Would actually like to se a fitting like 8 turrets/4 launchers... why do Amarr ships only get a 1 launcher slot? Launchers are reserved for Khanid faction ships. Go read Sarmaul's Khanid MKII thread. ________________________________________________ Originally by: Nidhoggur How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
PurpleHazedPrincess
Posted - 2006.07.30 10:19:00 -
[1425 ]
Im going to have to agree with Mord on that, if they are going to make lasers suck so much how about you give the Abaddon 8 turret 4 missile slots so I can at least put in some Exp or Kin missiles to counter it. Oh wait, that might allow us to use FoFs on Domis!!! OH NOZ!! They could lose their drones! Seriously ive been playing Amarr since early 2004 and steadly ive seen nothing but more and more reasons to put proj on my amarrian ships, Hence why my apoc now supports 1400mm T2s...thanks CCP, I trained t2 lasers for nothing..
Anjor
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.07.30 10:21:00 -
[1426 ]
Crap, ment to post that on this char. What, I don't care what manufacturer goes with what bonuses, how about I don't want to have to use missiles on an amarrian and also use shields with it. __________________________________________________Yes im Minmatar, but I'm a freed slave that has Amarrian blood!!!
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.07.30 12:33:00 -
[1427 ]
Originally by: Hijara I think the Abbadon is fine as it is. judging from the video it looks like a tach boat. Which im ok with. and anyone who whines about it is still going to get one that's exactly what I thought when I saw 8 turrets + ROF bonus ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Gelinder
Posted - 2006.07.30 13:02:00 -
[1428 ]
I see alot of posts about how the Abaddon does 14% more dps then the geddon. But can the geddon actually fit 7 T2 Tachs? I'm still training for this ship so I haven't tried it yet but a few quick calculations shows alot of PG missing for it. I think we are looking at alot more dps on the abaddon then 14%, specially in fleets.
goodby2u
Posted - 2006.07.30 13:53:00 -
[1429 ]
Yes the new tier 3 amarr battleship seems to be best suited for fleets or small gangs mainly because,without a cap use bonus,its cap will die very VERY fast with tachs... So i see no point in resists unless your the primary in a fleet engagement and you just want to yell HA!It will take another 5 seconds to bring ME down!
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.30 13:58:00 -
[1430 ]
You guys are using this thread to talk about everything amarr related, arent you? Create a new thread? Oh, I forgot, you want to mention the huge number of pages in this thread (and no Tux reply! The HORROR!) when you whine about how Amarr needs boosting. Ok... --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Matrix Aran
Legio Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.30 14:12:00 -
[1431 ]
Would you actualy believe that the new Tier 3 ships aren't really supposed to be any better than what we have? I mean if you read Tux's blog, essentialy he's saying, compared to what you guys have these are gonna suck in your eyes. But someone will figure out that they are to be used for different things and everyone will be happy. You need to stop comparing the old ships to the new ones and instead look at it and ask yourself, now what could I do with this? Mind you it would be usefull if tux released some PG and CPU stats but I'm guessing they will be substancial enough to support the heavy guns most people have planned for their setups. ----
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.30 14:31:00 -
[1432 ]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 30/07/2006 14:31:36 Originally by: Matrix Aran But someone will figure out that they are to be used for different things and everyone will be happy. IT CAN ONLY TANK OR GANK, JUST LIKE THE GEDDON AND APOC. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TELL YOU IDIOTS THIS? WE WANT SOMETHING NEW, ALL THE OTHER RACES HAS VARIATION. AMARR DOESNT. Would the poster above me please stand up?
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.30 15:12:00 -
[1433 ]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 30/07/2006 14:31:36 Originally by: Matrix Aran But someone will figure out that they are to be used for different things and everyone will be happy. IT CAN ONLY TANK OR GANK, JUST LIKE THE GEDDON AND APOC. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TELL YOU IDIOTS THIS? WE WANT SOMETHING NEW, ALL THE OTHER RACES HAS VARIATION. AMARR DOESNT. To be fair 'we' don't have an official opinion (by we I ofcourse mean Amarr pilots). YOU however want some variation, but your opinion isn't the final word on this matter.
madaluap
Gallente
Posted - 2006.07.30 15:26:00 -
[1434 ]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 30/07/2006 14:31:36 Originally by: Matrix Aran But someone will figure out that they are to be used for different things and everyone will be happy. IT CAN ONLY TANK OR GANK, JUST LIKE THE GEDDON AND APOC. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TELL YOU IDIOTS THIS? WE WANT SOMETHING NEW, ALL THE OTHER RACES HAS VARIATION. AMARR DOESNT. This is exactly where ccp went wrong AND yes i feel for ammar on this one... - gallente should get a dampboat - ammar a droneboat with more med than domi (ill explain this) - caldari are fine - minmatar, well thats kinda obvious Vexor: 5-3-4 4 guns Arbitrator: 4-4-4 2 guns, 1 launcher Now the bs: Dominix: 6-5-7 6 guns New Abaddon: 5-6-7 4 guns, 2 launchers 1 bonus will be drones, but the other one im not sure, tracking disrupters on a bs is just crap, anything bs sized or smaller will hit it anyway. capbonus would make this ship good and resistance would make it awesome And yes because im gallente and liked the arbitrator, i think such a bs would rock.. Small disclaimer: ECM has to be nerfed first, NOS has to be nerfed first, but Ccp is looking into that. _________________________________________________
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.30 15:31:00 -
[1435 ]
Edited by: Ather Ialeas on 30/07/2006 15:31:14 Just out of interest, what is your justification for Amarr using drone-specialized ships? Especially from RP point of view it makes no sense at all since Amarr supposedly hate the Gallente and since smartbombs are considered as anti-drone shouldn't Amarr instead get smartbomb bonuses to their ships? ________________________________________________ Originally by: Nidhoggur How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
madaluap
Gallente
Posted - 2006.07.30 15:36:00 -
[1436 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Edited by: Ather Ialeas on 30/07/2006 15:31:14 Just out of interest, what is your justification for Amarr using drone-specialized ships? Especially from RP point of view it makes no sense at all since Amarr supposedly hate the Gallente and since smartbombs are considered as anti-drone shouldn't Amarr instead get smartbomb bonuses to their ships? The arbitrator offcourse! Well you can have a smartbomb bonus, but ATM this has no use, or ccp revises the way they work offcourse. Seriously, ammar dont hate gallente, they dislike each other. What ammar hates is the minmatar But really you want a smartbomb bonus?? _________________________________________________
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.30 15:39:00 -
[1437 ]
AFAIK gallente an amarr are neutral to each other (or in a cold war status). That isn't exactly "hate". And after gallente amarr ships have the biggest dronebays, even if you ignore the arbi. That being said I would be fine with anything really but an geddon/apoc replacement.
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.30 15:42:00 -
[1438 ]
Originally by: madaluap The arbitrator offcourse! Quote: The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier. Drones are not for Amarr, just like the inquisitor doesn't make us a missile race the arbi doesn't make use drone lovers...
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.30 15:54:00 -
[1439 ]
Originally by: madaluap But really you want a smartbomb bonus?? It certainly sounds interesting :) But that might just be because it hasnt been done before. Would the poster above me please stand up?
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.30 16:02:00 -
[1440 ]
The Abbadon needs 4 missile slots, so you can rat well in it. I am so fed up with not having a decent ratting ship as amarr. 4 missile slots on it wont hurt anyone now, would they ? ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.30 16:07:00 -
[1441 ]
Originally by: madaluap But really you want a smartbomb bonus?? Well yea, assuming of course that smartbombs would act like SMARTbombs only damaging those who are not hostile (read: not in same gang as you). Then just slap in either a range and/or damage bonus and you'll have one scary ship. Maybe even a webifier bonus on top of that would be interesting. Just think of it, gettting webbed from 20-30km and then being forced to watch when a golden lump comes towards you slowly...and when it finally gets in range, *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM*. Heck, I'd fly that over Armageddon any day! ________________________________________________ Originally by: Nidhoggur How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
eLLioTT wave
Art of War Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.07.30 16:08:00 -
[1442 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 The Abbadon needs 4 missile slots, so you can rat well in it. I am so fed up with not having a decent ratting ship as amarr. 4 missile slots on it wont hurt anyone now, would they ? Damnation / curse. But i agree a T1 missile boat (or half missile boat) would be so nice for amarr. AND make tanking even easier which is supposed to be our highlight (even though every other ship can tank as well and i believe claymore holds the record - so i guess tanking is out the window as our strength :P)
Sarmaul
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.07.30 16:14:00 -
[1443 ]
Give amarr a smartbomb capacitor need bonus.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Aramendel
Posted - 2006.07.30 16:19:00 -
[1444 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Give amarr a smartbomb capacitor need bonus. Only if mealstorm gets a bonus for target painter optimal range.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.30 16:23:00 -
[1445 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas gettting webbed from 20-30km and then being forced to watch when a golden lump comes towards you slowly...and when it finally gets in range, *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM*. <3 That sounded so beautifull Would the poster above me please stand up?
Morkus Rex
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.30 16:45:00 -
[1446 ]
Would be nice ... bonus on smartbomb range and capacitor use _____________________________________________ Our users will know fear and cover before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.30 17:22:00 -
[1447 ]
I quickly crunched some numbers but anyways, here's my smartbomb-Abaddon. It can tank or gank but not both at the same time like it should be. Also please note that I'm not that good at planning ships (I lack the experience) so don't be overly cruel when you're reading this thru. And yes, I made this with "all skills lvl5" template in QuickFit. So the upsides of the following would be: + near-HAC armor tank + good damage output and the downsides - very cap reliant - slow - high skill requirements Note how the stats of the ship are similar to the preliminary stats which are already in game: Slot layout 8/4/8 (amount of turret/launcher hardpoints don't affect smartbombs so those are irrelevant) Powergrid output 21250 MW, CPU output 550TF, cap recharge time 660. Shield HP 4375, Armor HP 6800. Same base shield and armor resists as Armageddon. Now, with the following mods in highslots... 2* Large YF-12a Smartbomb (300HP thermal per smartbomb) 2* Large Rudimentary Concussion Bomb I (300HP kinetic per smartbomb) 2* Large 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge (300HP EM per smartbomb) 2* Large 'Notos' Explosive Charge I (300HP explosive per smartbomb) ...the raw DPS would be 320hp/s. To be honest it's not that much at all and while I don't want it to be a pwnmobile, I wouldn't mind seeing a +10% dmg per bs level (results in 480 DPS) or maybe even +15% dmg per bs level (560 DPS) to smartbomb's base damage. As for the tank, lowslots could be filled with for example the following: 1* Large Armor Repairer II (~71,11..HP repaired per second) 1* Armor EM Hardener II 1* Armor Thermic Hardener II 1* Armor Kinetic Hardener II 1* Armor Explosive Hardener II 1* Internal Force Field Array I (the best named damage control) This would give you the following resists: Shield - 11,5% EM/64,6% explosive/46,9% kinetic/29,2% thermal Armor - 84,52% EM/69,04% explosive/70,98% kinetic/74,85% thermal As for taking damage this would mean that there is the following buffer damage totals for shield before the armor starts to take a beating: 11,5% EM - 4878,125 HP 64,6% explosive - 7201,25 HP 46,9% kinetic - 6426,875 HP 29,2% thermal - 5652,5 HP Note that I only used 6 lowslots for this tank. This is because to fit those named smartbombs even the mister Lvl5 Everything needs to fit at least two Quantum Co-Processor I:s to be able to stick them in. So what would the four midslots hold? Keeping in mind that the tank has to be sustainable before getting into target range it should be quite obvious that I've placed two Cap Recharger II:s there. One named smartbomb with max skills uses 26,67cap/s which means that having 8 smartbombs eats cap at 213,36cap/s. That's about the double the amount T2 Tachyons take so a capacitor bonus would be more than viable for this ship. I guess -10% cap usage/bs level should be enough. With that sort of bonus 2 Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I:s could support the ship's cap hungry weaponry for long enough to show the target that he's now in trouble. With the stuff above fitted Abaddon would still have almost 13k PG free but only 32 CPU. I can't remember if T2 smartbombs are in game but assuming they are the setup and stats above could fit 7 T2 smartbombs resulting in around 327 raw DPS (or 490 for +10% dmg and 572DPS for +15% dmg) making them only slightly better with that tank. Also if a stasis webifier range bonus would be introduced, maybe something as drastic as +25% range per level meaning that 10km webifier would be maxed out at 30 517 meters. That would of course mean that either lose some of the tanking or take a smartbomb or two away to avoid draining your cap when you'd need to start blasting stuff. The fitting limits of this version of Abaddon would still allow one to fit it with full rack of Tachyons with couple of dmg mods and such but with smartbomb-oriented bonuses it would be really different while holding into the Amarr's "pure damage" mantra. Like it? ________________________________________________ Originally by: Nidhoggur How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.30 19:44:00 -
[1448 ]
Daily Bump-- Page 50 coming soon!!
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.30 19:51:00 -
[1449 ]
Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 30/07/2006 19:51:35 Originally by: Cosmo Raata Daily Bump-- Page 50 coming soon!! I belive I have that honor edit : Nope, still one more to go Would the poster above me please stand up?
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.07.30 19:57:00 -
[1450 ]
i'd have to say im w/ madaluap on the abbadon (should be a drone boat), this is what i thought it was going to be.. so many people thought it would be and i was very happy, then i heard its another boat that can fit 8 turrets.. like wtf we have that. anyways we should get this topic off the abbadon, as its not out yet and everything is hypothetical, we should concentrate on talking more of the crappy ships we already have, anything theoretical ccp can dismiss w/o a 2nd look, while if we make good points on the crap we have now they cant dismiss us forever. damage / cap should be more similar to hybrids imo, for pulses/ blasters and beam/ rails as it is now, w/ close ammo beams and rails are similar the comparison is utter sheeeeeeeeeeeet if u look at beam/rail w/ long range ammo. ? if crystals went back to the old way maybe we wouldnt be tha bad off atm?
Mahavy Seth
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.30 20:11:00 -
[1451 ]
I have 2 theory regarding CCP unability to answer to this topic or solve this problem:Theory 01 Many players was amarr, so they will resign EvE soon when they reach max skills on amarr. By let amarr suck hard, CCP hope they will train other skills. you know. starting a new character from the beginning may be boring. This exaplin also the fact that Caldari -> Minmatar -> Gallente - > Amarr are a whine circle. In this manner CCP is sure that ALL CHARATER, regarding starting race, will develop all skills so will stay in game more.Theory 02 With Sub system Targetting option laser will have the highest precision factor. But I must say that regarding real physics, EvE is like Loonly Toones... so perphas CCP think that autocannons are the most precise weapons and laser the wrost...
Perry
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.30 20:26:00 -
[1452 ]
They have to admit that EM Damage from Turrets is about the last thing you want at the moment on TQ
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.30 20:51:00 -
[1453 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Edited by: Ather Ialeas on 30/07/2006 15:31:14 Just out of interest, what is your justification for Amarr using drone-specialized ships? Especially from RP point of view it makes no sense at all since Amarr supposedly hate the Gallente and since smartbombs are considered as anti-drone shouldn't Amarr instead get smartbomb bonuses to their ships? the justification for that would lie with the arbi and its t2 variants mainly who already use drones nicely. more importantely though you need to have some way to chose a different setup than just another laser boat for practical reasons. fighting an enemy who has to rely on only 1 weapon system which also only does 2 types of damage (mainly the weakish em-damage on top of it) is a lot easier than fighting an enemy who can change his approach depending on the situation. hence amarrians are at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to battleships. also giving amarrians drones as a 2nd weapon seems to make a lot more sense than giving us specialized ewar,missiles,projectiles or hybrid ships if you take the arbi into account. on a side-note: smartbombs can also be considered an outside empire-space kind of weapon unless you want lots of amarrian outlaws running around. my corp makes extensive use of arbitrators in pvp and even though our enemies know this i think the last time i saw a smartbomb setup used against us was 6+ months ago and even then it only managed to wipe out one wave of drones and we manged to destroy it a gate a few minutes later after we got more drones.
Sarmaul
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.07.30 21:50:00 -
[1454 ]
Page 50, and should've been locked at around page 20 tbh.TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
HappyKitten
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.30 21:54:00 -
[1455 ]
/signed to Sarmaul I hate long threads. I always bail out after 4-5 pages. Just posting this so I can end up on page 50
Perry
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.30 21:59:00 -
[1456 ]
Go away you non Amarr Scum Only true Amarr belong to the mighty Imperial Whine Topic page 50.
Sarmaul
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.07.30 22:04:00 -
[1457 ]
Originally by: Perry Go away you non Amarr Scum Only true Amarr belong to the mighty Imperial Whine Topic page 50. np - shall I ask the mods to delete my khanid thread too? :)TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
HappyKitten
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.30 22:05:00 -
[1458 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Perry Go away you non Amarr Scum Only true Amarr belong to the mighty Imperial Whine Topic page 50. np - shall I ask the mods to delete my khanid thread too? :) Yes, it was balanced and intelligent. In short, it had no place on these forums
Dixon
Posted - 2006.07.30 23:38:00 -
[1459 ]
Originally by: Sarmaul Page 50, and should've been locked at around page 20 tbh. YOU should be locked... in a federal 'pound me in the ass' prison
Dethis
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.30 23:47:00 -
[1460 ]
Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Sarmaul Page 50, and should've been locked at around page 20 tbh. YOU should be locked... in a federal 'pound me in the ass' prison ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~*`»lllllll`*~,.......................................... .......................,-~*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll»`*-,.................................... ..................,-~*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll*-,.................................. ...............,-*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\................................. .............;*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~*~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................................ ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,........................... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-*...........`~-~-,...(.(»`*,`,.......................... ................\llllllllllll,-~*.....................)_-\..*`*;..).......................... .................\,-*`»,*`)............,-~*`~................/..................... ..................|/.../.../~,......-~*,-~*`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..*~,.`*~*................*...\................. ................|.../.../.../.*`...\...........................)....)»`~,.................. ................|./.../..../.......)......,.)`*~-,............/....|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,*`-,.....`-,...*`....,---......\..../...../..|.........»```*~-,,,, ...............(..........)`*~-,....`*`.,-~*.,-*......|.../..../.../............\........ ................*-,.......`*-,...`~,..``.,,,-*..........|.,*...,*...|..............\........ ...................*,.........`-,...)-,..............,-*`...,-*....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...*-,___,,-~*....,-*......|...`-,..........\.. -------- Kill em all and let god sort em out
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
Posted - 2006.07.31 04:43:00 -
[1461 ]
Yay page 50 The Emperor be praised! Now maybe we can get some dev luvin, if not, on to 100 I say
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.31 04:46:00 -
[1462 ]
Originally by: HappyKitten Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Perry Go away you non Amarr Scum Only true Amarr belong to the mighty Imperial Whine Topic page 50. np - shall I ask the mods to delete my khanid thread too? :) Yes, it was balanced and intelligent. In short, it had no place on these forums QFT...no wait ________________________________________________ Originally by: Nidhoggur How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.07.31 13:31:00 -
[1463 ]
I wonder about the new bc, will it to be a one trick pony? Would the poster above me please stand up?
Talos Darkhart
Posted - 2006.07.31 13:36:00 -
[1464 ]
For a proud race of god touched imperialists you sure do whine a lot
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.07.31 13:47:00 -
[1465 ]
to be proud u must win a fight once in a while, when u only lose u are only sad.
Lisento Slaven
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.31 13:53:00 -
[1466 ]
I bought one of those "words of wisdom" posters you see in businesses all the time...I think it fits the Amarr PERFECTLY! "DEFEAT" - "The price of defeat is the undeniable knowledge that everyone around you knows you are a failure." Man...that has Amarr written all over it. I still think lasers needs to be fixed though even after page 50... --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Kovacs Caprios
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.07.31 14:12:00 -
[1467 ]
Wow, I have seen a 50 page post before...... I wonder if all the moaning will work...
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.07.31 15:23:00 -
[1468 ]
I will never give up the fight to get a Dev response to an obvious problem. 100 pages? No problem. 150 pages? We'll go there. 200 pages? My God it better not take that long but I'll keep it up if need be. Maybe Oveur himself could respond? Tux might have been told not to touch this thread....Just with someone would.
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.07.31 15:27:00 -
[1469 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata I will never give up the fight to get a Dev response to an obvious problem. 100 pages? No problem. 150 pages? We'll go there. 200 pages? My God it better not take that long but I'll keep it up if need be. Maybe Oveur himself could respond? Tux might have been told not to touch this thread....Just with someone would. I think Tux maybe reluctant to reply to this thread because 75% of the content here is basically (mostly justified) flaming against him. ________________________________________________ Originally by: Nidhoggur How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.07.31 16:45:00 -
[1470 ]
^^ too true heres to another 50 if needs be ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Ridjeck Thome
Posted - 2006.07.31 16:53:00 -
[1471 ]
CCP could at least acknowledge this thread and make some kind of comment. TBH, a big improvement would be for them to capture all current concerns in one thread and make some kind of comment against each; ie; [issue] -> working as intended [issue] -> we are aware of this and are looking into it - no timeframe for further information [issue] -> a dev has been assigned to look into this etc, etc Yes, I know discriminating between valid concerns and whines is difficult, but after 9 years in MMORPGs (UO/ SWG/ EVE) its clear to me that the less communication to threads like this, the more the player-base begins to mistrust the Devs and 'rumours' start....the best policy CCP? - JUST tell us whats happening! More info = Better No info = BAD
Dethis
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.31 17:09:00 -
[1472 ]
BOOST GALLENTE *Ducks* mwahaha -------- Kill em all and let god sort em out
gu o
Posted - 2006.07.31 19:10:00 -
[1473 ]
well we hit 50 and still nada? I am assuming that tux has seen this thred and is working on the issue... am I right tux? I hope so, maybe the answer is lowering the cap req for shooting lasers. that coupled with a lowering of pg/cpu of lasers would help alot as well. maybe even almost make them useable... the 50% reduction bonus almost every ship gets appears like a waste. every other race get dual real bonuses were we get 1... WTF seems odd to me anyone else feel the same? Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
Entropist
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2006.07.31 19:21:00 -
[1474 ]
One thread to 50 pages, one to go. *Goes to post on the Khanid MKII thread.*
Dano Sarum
Giants in the Playground
Posted - 2006.07.31 21:22:00 -
[1475 ]
Its rediculous really, yesterday I was messing around with a corpmate using a pure damage fitted ship, he was setup for Blood NPCing, pretty sad he had his thermal and EM res's over 90% with no really specialised equipment or massive skills in the area. Made me realise just how utterly worthless that setup would have been in PvP, its pretty sad when you can do more DPS with 3 light drones and the launcher on an omen then the primary weapons system.
Zeno Kang
Posted - 2006.07.31 22:12:00 -
[1476 ]
Originally by: Dano Sarum Constructive or not, this thread has reached around about 1500 posts, that warrents SOME sort of reply by CCP. Yup. Too true.
Commander Thrawn
Fluffy rabbit killer's inc
Posted - 2006.07.31 22:35:00 -
[1477 ]
about time this hit 50, so ya, where are the fixes :)
Devoras2
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.01 22:11:00 -
[1478 ]
Bumpzor And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Wat0721
GalacTECH Unlimited
Posted - 2006.08.01 22:14:00 -
[1479 ]
Edited by: Wat0721 on 01/08/2006 22:15:11 So, Tux would have to reply right here to make it onto page 50, wouldn't he? Looks about like the last one for page 50. Looks like it's gonna need to be trolled for another 50 pages to get a sure dev response. EDIT: "Oh darn. Did I take the last response spot on the page you were all waiting for? Guess you gotta whine for another 50 pages." ---ECM Fix
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.08.02 02:35:00 -
[1480 ]
Even more good news to the Amarr pilots a NOSF NERF. GREAT, Glad i spent all that time specializing.
Aramendel
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.02 02:46:00 -
[1481 ]
Overall the Nos nerf will be more of a buff for amarr. There are more ships than the arbi line, you know. And guess what thse ships are highly vulnerable to?
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.08.02 03:08:00 -
[1482 ]
What? almost all amarr pvp sets up require nosf. due to our small drone bay size, lack of mid slots, and huge cap use of our weapons we have to have nosf on the geddon, apoc, prophecy, absolution and maller. this is our only defense against smaller ships. point of the thread is Amarr is lacking and if nosf is nerfed another strike against amarr pilots.
Aramendel
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.02 03:11:00 -
[1483 ]
Amarr ships usually have the 2nd biggest dronebay after gallente ones (with exeptions, like the cyclone). And you'll see usually more Nos on Minnie and Gallente ships than on amarr ones, TBH.
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.08.02 03:21:00 -
[1484 ]
amarr has over all a smaller drone bay than all but caldari, but, caldari have plenty of mid slots like i said, smaller drone bays, lack of mid slots, the use of so much cap on our guns. oh yeah the maller has a huge drone bay also. that is why amarr needs a boost and why the nosf will hurt the amarr so much more. we need the energy sucked from opponents to feed our pvp ships. any amarr pvp ship lacking nosf is soon in a pod plain and simple.
Aramendel
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.02 03:36:00 -
[1485 ]
Mhh..you are right, minnies have bigger dronebays on average. Always thought they had smaller ones. Still you see nos-heavy setups far more often on other races. Many Amarr setups have 1 Nos as backup, but that won't be effected nearly as much by the Nos changes than a specialized domi or typhoon with 4 Nos will be. And, again, getting Nossed hurts amarr ships *far* worse than other ships.
DrEiak
Posted - 2006.08.02 07:24:00 -
[1486 ]
GOD AS MY WITNESS, I have *****ed about very little in this game, but I will spam the forums until the devs read some of these posts. I dont want to see amarr be the WTFPWNAGE race, I just want to see some people fly more then the curse and pilgrim. Which the devs are looking at raping, but hey, go ahead and *****amarr some more, heaven forbid the fact that somewhere between 40-50% of all eve players are caldari, do we wonders why? Its because they have the best tank, best EW, and still good DPS, with less skill points invested. I am not asking someone to nerf caldari, they are fine, but a shield tank should NOT be better then an armor tank, especially when our race is supposed to be the best tank. I seriously think i can blame this on the fact that every amarr ship save for the arbitrator, augor, and that mining frig, have 10% reduced cap usage. ITS KILLING US, we need a second bonus that DOES SOMETHING besides make our primary weapons usable. take down the cap usage on lasers some, make controlled burst 10% reduction, and give our ships a reals second bonus instead of that 10% reduced cap crap. If you have to introduce damage to all crystal types i DONT CARE, its rediculous how much effort it takes to be able to barely squeeze on a decent setup on amarr ships. We have the highest powergrid usage, and damn high CPU usage on lasers too, add that with the lowest amount of available CPU. You know all those low slot modules use up CPU, ESPECIALLY ARMOR REPS AND HARDENERS. those are primary modules for amarr, so why cant we fit them? OH YEAH, because gallente get more CPU, and easier fittings because blasters got their changes (even if they were much needed). Caldari, dont even get me started, Missle launchers use up a lot of CPU but when they are reduced by 25% from skills, mixed with the highest CPU output in the game (+25%) and having no real need for powergrid (shield tanks, and missle launchers) caldari ships are probably the easiest fit ships in the game. WE NEED SOME <3 and if you think otherwise that is because you dont fly amarr and you like to gank us and steal our stuffs.
DrKira
Posted - 2006.08.02 07:38:00 -
[1487 ]
Quote: Oh, I forgot, you want to mention the huge number of pages in this thread (and no Tux reply! The HORROR!) when you whine about how Amarr needs boosting. Ok... Tux is reading this, I KNOWS HE IS. The devs just need to decide how to respond to the beast, I am sure they have decided that amarr are too powerful, so they are going to take away explosion resists on our shields to make us more ballenced with the minmataars lack of tanking ability. I SAY TAKE AWAY ALL OF OUR SHIELDS WE DONT NEED EM, in fact, just add all our shield HP to our armor. Then take away all our mid slots and add them to low slots so we can have 11 low slots, then we might be able to fill the roll most people seem to think amarr ships should be stuck in. Laser fireing tanks and noting more. Only problem with this, is if it actually happened then every other race would ***** OMG UBER, the amarr are doing what we have steriotyped them as, save for EW, we would still get pwned by EW. With 11 low slots I think we can get decent DPS (or NOT and, fit decent lasers), and have an OK tank, or at least all our hitpoints will be tanked hitpoints. ON A MORE SERIOUS NOTE: DONT do what I just suggested, instead give amarr ships a serious look at. Its all I fly, and i really REALLY dont want to have to train for another race. Our ships should have something they do better then the other races, and reloading sure as hell isnt it.
Mahavy Seth
AmarrImperial Academy
Posted - 2006.08.02 09:48:00 -
[1488 ]
What about a ship per ship solution? It may be very fine and also maintain Amarr personality .Apocalypse Change bonuses to: 10% cap reduction and 7.5% to maximim capacitor per levelZealot Change maximum speed at 225 m/s and powergrid to 1150.Omen Change powergrid to 850Retribution Move the 5th high slot to low slot or medium slot.Punisher Increase powergrid to 50Crusader Increase power grid to 50 Thoughts?
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.08.02 12:09:00 -
[1489 ]
special bonus on all amarr ships: 50% decrease in the capacitor use of all laser turrets.
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.02 12:18:00 -
[1490 ]
Edited by: Andreask14 on 02/08/2006 12:20:05 Fun fact: The stacking nerf hit amarr the most, since they rely so heavily on one fitting style for each ship, either you tank it, or you gank it, try both and the tank fights with your guns for the ammo. What am i supposed to put in the 8 lows of a geddon when more than 3 heatsinks wont work? Also, the Coercer is funny, with adv. weapon upgrades 4 you still have to fit all 4 low slots with RCUs so you can fit a full rack of medium beams in the highs. Amarrs are the race with the most limited ships fitting wise and thus tacticaly. As such, the stacking nerf hits them hardest, scince every compromise just makes their ships worse. All amarrian ships were designed to be stuborn and NOT compromise and firepower for tank or vice-verse if you wanted best performance, the drawback was the lack in verstility and self-sustainment, obviously. Sadly, the stacking nerf has totally ruined the uncompromising nature of most amarrian ships, that is why their few actually versatile ones are now their best, the ones with the most mid-slots. Honestly, what is a geddon suppoed to put in the 8 low slots when only 3 heatsinks work? ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:33:00 -
[1491 ]
daily bump ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
gu o
Posted - 2006.08.02 16:16:00 -
[1492 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 Edited by: Andreask14 on 02/08/2006 12:20:05 Fun fact: The stacking nerf hit amarr the most, since they rely so heavily on one fitting style for each ship, either you tank it, or you gank it, try both and the tank fights with your guns for the ammo. What am i supposed to put in the 8 lows of a geddon when more than 3 heatsinks wont work? Also, the Coercer is funny, with adv. weapon upgrades 4 you still have to fit all 4 low slots with RCUs so you can fit a full rack of medium beams in the highs. Amarrs are the race with the most limited ships fitting wise and thus tacticaly. As such, the stacking nerf hits them hardest, scince every compromise just makes their ships worse. All amarrian ships were designed to be stuborn and NOT compromise and firepower for tank or vice-verse if you wanted best performance, the drawback was the lack in verstility and self-sustainment, obviously. Sadly, the stacking nerf has totally ruined the uncompromising nature of most amarrian ships, that is why their few actually versatile ones are now their best, the ones with the most mid-slots. Honestly, what is a geddon suppoed to put in the 8 low slots when only 3 heatsinks work? Uhh half a dozen plates hello cause we all like to have that extra 10 sec of watching our ship get blown up... bye bye geddon was fun watching you get raped by a destroyer with nos and light drones (I have not actually died to a destroyer yet but then again have not wound up in a pvp situation with one)Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
Stephar
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.08.02 16:18:00 -
[1493 ]
I still don't understand why we don't have an upgrade to the Punisher > Maller > Prophecy line. We have a lot of dubious ship designs, but this was one of the few that made sense. The combination of tanking and sustained firepower... you'd think this design would have made the transition to the battleship level. After all, isn't that what Amarr is all about? Instead, we get watered down versions in the Apoc, Geddon, and Abaddon. Apoc & Geddon get the sustained firepower, the Abaddon gets the tanking resists. Would it be too much to ask for one of our three battleships to incorporate both bonuses? Here's what I'd like to see them do with our battleship line: Armageddon = -10% energy turret cap, +5% energy turret ROF (8/3/8 layout, 125m3 drone bay) Apocalypse = +10% drone damage/hp, +5% tracking disruptor (6/6/6 layout, 200m3 drone bay) Abaddon = -10% energy turret cap, +5% armor resists (8/4/8 layout, 75m3 drone bay) This would mirror our cruiser line: Armageddon = Omen, Apocalpyse = Arbitrator, Abaddon = Maller. The only one that would need serious tweaking is the Apoc... but the devs have already said they're going to reexamine it anyways.
Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.02 16:28:00 -
[1494 ]
Dont remove the cap bonus from the apoc.Ship lovers click here
smoogie
Posted - 2006.08.02 16:55:00 -
[1495 ]
Agreed, make the Apoc into a droneboat with a tracking disruptor range bonus.
Outa Rileau
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:01:00 -
[1496 ]
Originally by: smoogie Agreed, make the Apoc into a droneboat with a tracking disruptor range bonus. WTF? No, tracking disruptors suck...------------------------- Getting Sig Removed / Rank 8 / SP: 762039 of 2048000
Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:01:00 -
[1497 ]
Originally by: smoogie Agreed, make the Apoc into a droneboat with a tracking disruptor range bonus. Then we have a bigger pilgrim/curse with 8 guns.Ship lovers click here
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.08.02 20:08:00 -
[1498 ]
Well Tux, I'm a little perplexed atm. Amarr pilots have this thread of 51 pages atm & growing. I've seen more Abaddon complaint threads than Hyperion or Maelstrom. Amarr Pilots are starting the Dont Nerf Nos threads, Boost Lasers, Change Apoc. So, my conclusion & hope is that Tux & the other Devs have recognized our complaints & will address it in a full blog up coming. I just can't understand why we'd be ignored for so long unless that was the truth. If not, I think I'm done with Eve once & forall. I'm approaching my 3rd year straight of playing, no breaks the entire time. 2 years solid of having 2 accounts. I have over 46.5 mil skill points, own a carrier & dreadnought. My main focus has always been Amarr since I understood that specialization was the way to go. I will never cross train! I can fly a Raven & Mega, because back in the day it was the thing to do. If I could just drop those skill points for nothing in return I would. So, Tux, Please, Announce something for the Faithful Amarr! If you are fearful of flaming, let Kieron or Oveur do it. All we want is an answer so we can move on. If the answer is Amarr is fine, shut up, say it so I can stop wasting my time. If you recognize the problem but have yet to know what to do about it....Say So. If you have a plan up & coming, give a hint of it. WE NEED TO KNOW!!!
gu o
Posted - 2006.08.02 21:06:00 -
[1499 ]
Originally by: Stephar I still don't understand why we don't have an upgrade to the Punisher > Maller > Prophecy line. We have a lot of dubious ship designs, but this was one of the few that made sense. The combination of tanking and sustained firepower... you'd think this design would have made the transition to the battleship level. After all, isn't that what Amarr is all about? Instead, we get watered down versions in the Apoc, Geddon, and Abaddon. Apoc & Geddon get the sustained firepower, the Abaddon gets the tanking resists. Would it be too much to ask for one of our three battleships to incorporate both bonuses? Here's what I'd like to see them do with our battleship line: Armageddon = -10% energy turret cap, +5% energy turret ROF (8/3/8 layout, 125m3 drone bay) Apocalypse = +10% drone damage/hp, +5% tracking disruptor (6/6/6 layout, 200m3 drone bay) Abaddon = -10% energy turret cap, +5% armor resists (8/4/8 layout, 75m3 drone bay) This would mirror our cruiser line: Armageddon = Omen, Apocalpyse = Arbitrator, Abaddon = Maller. The only one that would need serious tweaking is the Apoc... but the devs have already said they're going to reexamine it anyways. I like your idea for the apoc... tripple 6's eh. but i would still like to see the abba with its current bonuses. or swap out 5 rof for 5 damage. to really make it a ganker. like tux said gank or tank.Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
Polcor Rodal
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.02 22:40:00 -
[1500 ]
Ah, read the almost the whole thread now, but sitting with a broken leg on the sofa gives you a lot of time. Its r e a l l y unbelievable that the is no response fromm CCP. The more i read about, the more i am convinced, that CCP WON¦T fix Amarr. I am not really sure why, maybe to drain down one race for it is "cheaper" to deal with three races instead of four, or they dont really dont know how to fix amarr without completely redesign race and background. Maybe amarr is choosen to play a new role in the backgroundstory - the once great but now vanished empire. Maybe CCP has larger Problems to solve, such as stability of TQ, or getting Kali finally ready for deployment, intruducing the collectible cardgame to the market..... Anyway. Amarr won¦t be "fixed". I have invested only 3 Million SP in my char, sure i can start to train other races or start a new char....but is that the right solution ? EVE is quite unique i know no other online game with this kind of balance in gameplay. Maybe RL is more challenging then fighting these windmills. Pol --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. If in danger, or in doubt, run in cricles, scream and shout
gu o
Posted - 2006.08.02 23:49:00 -
[1501 ]
Edited by: gu o on 02/08/2006 23:50:11 I think I might have figured out ccp's "big plan" with the entire Amarrian race. I have read through this thread (well the vast majority) several times and have decided that ccp is bound to let the amarrians almost die. Thats right they will have the race amost totally fall appart. Then after a collapse they will totally rebuild the entire Amarrian race. making them vastly more unpredictable then their current style of play. They will use a backstory such as "In the recent times with ever changing technology, the Amarrian ideals of hard-hitting lasers and unstoppable armour has fallen to the wayside. The Amarrians have learned that a one sided way of thinking leads them to being all too predictable. As such they now have specialized in not specializing. This "new" way of thinking could be both detrimental and yet empowering for the almost forgotten race. THey now are able to do a vast many things, after their best scientists have reworked and rebuilt their once laser bound ships to now a universal fitting style. The scientists have realized that in day to day combat missiles are extremely effective. Hence the MKII's new missile turret heavy ships, and the unique drone boats that have proven themselves time and time again in battle." At least that my fun idea, in reality CCP probably feels that the Amarrian race and ships as a whole are "ok" I meen we do have decent damage, and the best looking ships in the game. Our ships do work for pvp, so long as your opponent thinks he is going to be fighting a different race ship and forgets to tank for EM. Do not forget we can fight pve style versus the sancha quite well. Although tanking and fighting is a push unlike the all goddly Raven .Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.08.03 00:52:00 -
[1502 ]
DEVS need to post something! this is getting out of hand. This is coming from a 2 account over three year playing eve lover. come on it takes you just as long as it takes me to to write a small post. Just say we are looking into it or we think amarr are fine. that is all some of us ask. just let us know someone is at the helm looking at which way we are going instead of worrying about new playing cards!
Captin Biltmore
AmarrDamage Unlimited Inc Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.03 01:37:00 -
[1503 ]
I figure...I'm amarr...I'm unhappy with the current state of things...I'll add to the madness and post here. +1 Assasin For Hire - Contact in game
Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet Pirate Coalition
Posted - 2006.08.03 02:47:00 -
[1504 ]
Well theres no way in hell I'm going to read threw 51 pages so what I'm about to type probably has been typed already in one of the previous posts but here goes. I've been flying Amarr religiously for about 1 year now. I've flown nothing else. Want to know what *I* think is stupid? 5% reduction in cap usage of lasers per level? What a wonderful bonus. My lasers suck less 5% every level basically. You can almost think of it as a few Amarr ships have only one bonus. Furthermore the ships that DON'T have these ships are cap raped because of the laser cap usage! Skills do help but they use enough cap so that Nosferatu = EW for Amarr. EM and Thermal? Ok Thermal is a good damage type, but wtf is with the EM? If your shield tanking and have ANY brains at all you'll have EM tanked. If you are an armor tanker then you already have at LEAST 70% EM resistance on Armor. As for ships like the Sacrilege... wonderful ship. I love it. I just wish I could utilize the bonuses. With my skills I can't fit tank + medium T2 pulses, I'm forced to fit frigate guns. Don't get me wrong, my sacrilege does wonderfully in PvP but its just annoying having to sit there and wait for 3 hours for the ship I'm shooting to pop. Medium Pulse lasers just take up TOO MUCH powergrid. Need a good example of how underpowered Amarr are? Take a look in the video section of the forum. We have many videos of Dominix/Megathron/etc raping EVE and how many videos have you seen with a Geddon or Apoc running around raping things? Not many. BEEF THE GOD DAMN AMARR!!!!!!! Thank you for listening to my rant. I feel better now. ===============================================
Entropist
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2006.08.03 04:00:00 -
[1505 ]
There's really not alot to say that hasn't already been said in this thread so I'll do the only contstructive thing I can think of. Bump.
Alextras Tesla
Posted - 2006.08.03 04:09:00 -
[1506 ]
BOOST AMARR, EVEN JUST A LITTLE!!!!!!! SO THEY DONT SUCK SO BAD. bump. ☻☺☻☺☻☺☻☺
SghnDubh
Posted - 2006.08.03 04:19:00 -
[1507 ]
Yeah here's my contribution to this 51 page thread. Read two posts up. Dude's been flying amarr religiously for 1 year. I've flown amarr *ONLY* for over 2 years. Either increase laser damage points or increase drone bay space. Fight Smart: http://www.BattleClinic.com
Capt Harlock
Posted - 2006.08.03 04:31:00 -
[1508 ]
i've played eve for over 2 years this char fly's minny, caldari and gallente my other char is a amarr specialist so i often fly ALL races of ships and without going into any great detail my amarr specialist has gathered a bit of dust lately. I'm also seeing fewer and fewer amarr ships in fleets gangs FACT. This is not a whine because i can fly all races so i consider myself unbiased. However i've seen all races in this situation at one time or another it goes in cycles. I've always thought that 2 dmg types on amarr suck though
Rockbox
AmarrVeto.
Posted - 2006.08.03 04:51:00 -
[1509 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Well Tux, I'm a little perplexed atm. Amarr pilots have this thread of 51 pages atm & growing. I've seen more Abaddon complaint threads than Hyperion or Maelstrom. Amarr Pilots are starting the Dont Nerf Nos threads, Boost Lasers, Change Apoc. So, my conclusion & hope is that Tux & the other Devs have recognized our complaints & will address it in a full blog up coming. I just can't understand why we'd be ignored for so long unless that was the truth. If not, I think I'm done with Eve once & forall. I'm approaching my 3rd year straight of playing, no breaks the entire time. 2 years solid of having 2 accounts. I have over 46.5 mil skill points, own a carrier & dreadnought. My main focus has always been Amarr since I understood that specialization was the way to go. I will never cross train! I can fly a Raven & Mega, because back in the day it was the thing to do. If I could just drop those skill points for nothing in return I would. So, Tux, Please, Announce something for the Faithful Amarr! If you are fearful of flaming, let Kieron or Oveur do it. All we want is an answer so we can move on. If the answer is Amarr is fine, shut up, say it so I can stop wasting my time. If you recognize the problem but have yet to know what to do about it....Say So. If you have a plan up & coming, give a hint of it. WE NEED TO KNOW!!! I second theeNova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Keldjos Falzir
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.03 05:51:00 -
[1510 ]
The most direct way to un**** the Amarr would be to reduce the cap usage on lasers so that EVERY ONE OF OUR DAMNED SHIPS didn't need the -10% cap use bonus. It should ring warning bells that the majority of amarr combat ships have this bonus just to make their main weaopns usable
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.03 06:05:00 -
[1511 ]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 03/08/2006 06:06:06 Originally by: Stephar I still don't understand why we don't have an upgrade to the Punisher > Maller > Prophecy line. We have a lot of dubious ship designs, but this was one of the few that made sense. The combination of tanking and sustained firepower... you'd think this design would have made the transition to the battleship level. After all, isn't that what Amarr is all about? Instead, we get watered down versions in the Apoc, Geddon, and Abaddon. Apoc & Geddon get the sustained firepower, the Abaddon gets the tanking resists. Would it be too much to ask for one of our three battleships to incorporate both bonuses? Here's what I'd like to see them do with our battleship line: Armageddon = -10% energy turret cap, +5% energy turret ROF (8/3/8 layout, 125m3 drone bay) Apocalypse = +10% drone damage/hp, +5% tracking disruptor (6/6/6 layout, 200m3 drone bay) Abaddon = -10% energy turret cap, +5% armor resists (8/4/8 layout, 75m3 drone bay) This would mirror our cruiser line: Armageddon = Omen, Apocalpyse = Arbitrator, Abaddon = Maller. The only one that would need serious tweaking is the Apoc... but the devs have already said they're going to reexamine it anyways. SIGNED!!! ftw! \o/ Except change apoc +5% tracking dis to +15% per level, give us a proper EW ship on par with the scorp - and make it 6/7/5?? btw CCP this is getting plain RUDE on your part. Your players have made a 50 page thread about ONE topic and you wont even reply to them? not even a "ok we are reading we will think about it"!? Meanwhile 1 page threads about caldari and Tier 3 bs (apart from amarr one of course) warrant several near instant dev responses?
Kasak Black
133rd Ghost Wing
Posted - 2006.08.03 07:55:00 -
[1512 ]
After reading almost all 51 pages of this thread I have come to conclusion Ammar don't exist, and we are all under some form of mass delusion. ------------------------
Jormunrek
AmarrMining Bytes Inc. Center for Disease Creation
Posted - 2006.08.03 09:00:00 -
[1513 ]
Bah, alts ftl. =/ Jorm
KilROCK
MinmatarAngel Deep Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.03 09:06:00 -
[1514 ]
How about this. Sacrilege in my opinion was better at being a missile boat, with missile bonus. It's only a bad immitation of the zealot with some 'extra' options when it comes to tanking and tackling at the same time. Why not just make it a 4 missile hardpoint, 3 turret hardpoint, still has 6 highslot, bonuses of -10% cap need changed to 5% EM damage for heavy/light missiles, HAC skill of 5% rate of fire. Good Khanid ship imo, different than zealot and being different is good. Don't give me that bullcrap about amarr not liking missiles, it's better than putting lasers on it. Just keep on moaning for 100 pages, you haven't moaned enough yet. ECM nerf incoming, everyone will start whoring tracking disruptors! This will be fun for you guys!
Devoras2
AmarrConfederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.03 16:37:00 -
[1515 ]
Ahh! No! Do not touch the Apocs layout. Change its bonuses instead, like 5% res to all dmg types pr lvl. The Apoc deserves its RP role as the king armor tanker. And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Avery Cane
Posted - 2006.08.03 16:38:00 -
[1516 ]
this thread should never leave the first page on the forums until a answer or a fix is made to amarr. FIX AMARR SHIPS!!!!
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.08.03 16:54:00 -
[1517 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 Edited by: Andreask14 on 02/08/2006 12:20:05 Fun fact: The stacking nerf hit amarr the most, since they rely so heavily on one fitting style for each ship, either you tank it, or you gank it, try both and the tank fights with your guns for the ammo. What am i supposed to put in the 8 lows of a geddon when more than 3 heatsinks wont work? Also, the Coercer is funny, with adv. weapon upgrades 4 you still have to fit all 4 low slots with RCUs so you can fit a full rack of medium beams in the highs. Amarrs are the race with the most limited ships fitting wise and thus tacticaly. As such, the stacking nerf hits them hardest, scince every compromise just makes their ships worse. All amarrian ships were designed to be stuborn and NOT compromise and firepower for tank or vice-verse if you wanted best performance, the drawback was the lack in verstility and self-sustainment, obviously. Sadly, the stacking nerf has totally ruined the uncompromising nature of most amarrian ships, that is why their few actually versatile ones are now their best, the ones with the most mid-slots. Honestly, what is a geddon suppoed to put in the 8 low slots when only 3 heatsinks work? Nice post! Would the poster above me please stand up?
El Ponja
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.03 17:04:00 -
[1518 ]
Originally by: Deathbarrage special bonus on all amarr ships: 50% decrease in the capacitor use of all laser turrets. this is actually a good idea. i think whats holding us down is the 10% cap reduction bonus on all our ships, this takes away the possibility of designing different ships for amarr. on the other hand without that bonus we wont be able to hold on for too long (the abaddon for example). And everyone will say that lasers have a "built in damage mod", but i dont see us making more damage than other races... we would if this is like having a 5% more damage bonus in all our ships, which i dont think its the case What ideas do u guys have for changing this? _____________Amarr KhanidMKII
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.03 17:21:00 -
[1519 ]
Originally by: El Ponja And everyone will say that lasers have a "built in damage mod", but i dont see us making more damage than other races... we would if this is like having a 5% more damage bonus in all our ships, which i dont think its the case Because other races have a 25% damage mod while amarr have a -50% cap bonus. Higher base damage (aka "built in damage mod") + no ship damage bonus vs Lower base damage + ship damage bonus. A few amarr ships have a ROF bonus, too, but there are also other races ships with a damage + ROF mod.
Yodohime Kibagami
AmarrMordu's Elite
Posted - 2006.08.03 17:40:00 -
[1520 ]
Imho tracking boni is a damage increase of a sort, just not one you can put to so easy calculation.
Clorthos
GallenteTau Ceti Global Production
Posted - 2006.08.03 17:49:00 -
[1521 ]
I have to agree, Fix Amarr ships, I fly Gallente right now and bypassed amarr due to the severe cap issues. The incoming nos nerf is going to wtfpowned Amarr ships across the board unless the nerf applies to everyone but amarr. The sad fact that the unfixed amarr Issues will drive people from playing the race of ships and force some loyalists from the game due to lack of response. The reduction in cap use for lasers per level is ok BUT consider that comparable race ships get % bonus to fire rate dmg and tracking. By no means should Amarr ships get a big red shiney POWN button, but they should be adjusted to have the same level of PvP and PvE use. 27
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.03 18:09:00 -
[1522 ]
I just made a fun calculation in another post, but I think it's quite relevant for this thread, too. IMO it shows pretty nicely the effect of EAN2 tanks. ----- The irony is that if the other side is using EAN2 + plate tanks it will do probably more dps with 1400mms than with tachyons. /edit: Actually, lets check this. With lvl 4 in the comp skilsl 3 EAN2 give you 48% reistance to all. A mega has with this: 79.2% EM, 53.2% exp, 66.2% kin, 66.2% therm An apoc has with this: 79.2% EM, 58.4% exp, 61% kin, 66.2% therm Lets take the average of both ships and we get: 79.2% EM, 55.8% exp, 63.6% kin, 66.2% therm 1400mm II has without any skills 5.84 exp and 4.67 kin dps with tremor L. After resistances thats a total of 4.28 dps. Tachyon II has with a 25% ROF bonus 13.8 EM dps and 6.9 therm dps with aurora L. After resistances thats a total of 5.2 dps. Ok, it has a somewhat bigger dps. Not that much, though - and a ship without a 25% ROF bonus (like an apoc) will have only 3.9 dps. Mhh.. what about 425mm rails? With no damage bonus 5.52 kin and 6.9 therm dps. After resistances 4.35 dps. With a 25% damage bonus 5.4 dps. Thats actually funny. An HYPERION with rails will *outdamage* a Abaddon with Tachyons if both ships use an EAN2 tank. Admittably the Hyperion will need 3 sensor boosters to get a targeting range of 200 km though if it has 40 km base targeting range. With 50 km base 2 sensor boosters will get him to 160 km, though, which might be enough.
Captin Biltmore
AmarrDamage Unlimited Inc Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.03 18:30:00 -
[1523 ]
2y amarr pilot here...and I'm discouraged. I KNOW the dev's are reading this...however a little recognition would be nice. Assasin For Hire - Contact in game
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.03 18:41:00 -
[1524 ]
quote=Aramendel]I just made a fun calculation in another post, but I think it's quite relevant for this thread, too. IMO it shows pretty nicely the effect of EAN2 tanks. ----- The irony is that if the other side is using EAN2 + plate tanks it will do probably more dps with 1400mms than with tachyons. /edit: Actually, lets check this. With lvl 4 in the comp skilsl 3 EAN2 give you 48% reistance to all. A mega has with this: 79.2% EM, 53.2% exp, 66.2% kin, 66.2% therm An apoc has with this: 79.2% EM, 58.4% exp, 61% kin, 66.2% therm Lets take the average of both ships and we get: 79.2% EM, 55.8% exp, 63.6% kin, 66.2% therm 1400mm II has without any skills 5.84 exp and 4.67 kin dps with tremor L. After resistances thats a total of 4.28 dps. Tachyon II has with a 25% ROF bonus 13.8 EM dps and 6.9 therm dps with aurora L. After resistances thats a total of 5.2 dps. Ok, it has a somewhat bigger dps. Not that much, though - and a ship without a 25% ROF bonus (like an apoc) will have only 3.9 dps. Mhh.. what about 425mm rails? With no damage bonus 5.52 kin and 6.9 therm dps. After resistances 4.35 dps. With a 25% damage bonus 5.4 dps. Thats actually funny. An HYPERION with rails will *outdamage* a Abaddon with Tachyons if both ships use an EAN2 tank. Admittably the Hyperion will need 3 sensor boosters to get a targeting range of 200 km though if it has 40 km base targeting range. With 50 km base 2 sensor boosters will get him to 160 km, though, which might be enough. This is why math makes me sad. EAN II's suck. They punish no one as much as they do Amarr. Even worse because we are a one trick pony (lasers), and even that trick is really really crappy. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.03 18:52:00 -
[1525 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Because other races have a 25% damage mod while amarr have a -50% cap bonus. Higher base damage (aka "built in damage mod") + no ship damage bonus vs Lower base damage + ship damage bonus. Now fun part! Mount 150mm autocannons and gatling lasers on punisher. Check that you use like 3pg and 12 cpu with autos and abt 15pg/9cpu with gatlings (t2 guns, my fitting skills actually). And whats funnier: autos outdamage gatlings :) Dude, where is my "built in" damage mod? (and why i use more cap?). I checked all guns this way - most problems are with frig guns. When you get to cruiser guns lasers are a bit better (like 5-8% more dps) but suck a lot of cap. When i went to BS guns only megapulses were "uber" compared to autocannons. Still - megapulses (perfect skills) ate 22cap/s (apoc generated 27-29cap/s dont remember now) - so it left 5-7cap/s to play with (yeah you need CPRs). When i put autos on i got 27-29cap/s to play with and could put even 2 gyrostabs in lows thus upping my damage to megapulse level. (megapulses would still need 2 CPRs and still would have less cap left to play with). Yeah - pulses have longer range but most combats take place at max 20km (scramble range) - so who needs 45km optimal with scorch?
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.03 19:22:00 -
[1526 ]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Aramendel Because other races have a 25% damage mod while amarr have a -50% cap bonus. Higher base damage (aka "built in damage mod") + no ship damage bonus vs Lower base damage + ship damage bonus. Now fun part! Mount 150mm autocannons and gatling lasers on punisher. Check that you use like 3pg and 12 cpu with autos and abt 15pg/9cpu with gatlings (t2 guns, my fitting skills actually). And whats funnier: autos outdamage gatlings :) Dude, where is my "built in" damage mod? (and why i use more cap?). I checked all guns this way - most problems are with frig guns. When you get to cruiser guns lasers are a bit better (like 5-8% more dps) but suck a lot of cap. When i went to BS guns only megapulses were "uber" compared to autocannons. Still - megapulses (perfect skills) ate 22cap/s (apoc generated 27-29cap/s dont remember now) - so it left 5-7cap/s to play with (yeah you need CPRs). When i put autos on i got 27-29cap/s to play with and could put even 2 gyrostabs in lows thus upping my damage to megapulse level. (megapulses would still need 2 CPRs and still would have less cap left to play with). Yeah - pulses have longer range but most combats take place at max 20km (scramble range) - so who needs 45km optimal with scorch? Yeah I love those 'built-in' things... how about fittings? Yeah our largest turrets have good DPS but who can fit them? Maller base grid 1125 (w/skills) 5 turrets - 15 slots Thorax base grid 1025 (w/skills) 5 turrets - 13 slots Omen base grid 912.5(w/skills)4 turrets and a launcher - 13 slots Vexor base grid 843.75(w/skills) 4 turrets - 12 slots Heavy pulse laser II - 231PG 35cpu Heavy Ion blaster II - 158PG 33cpu Why I chose to compare Ions with HP II? Well the Heavy pulse is the 'built-in' damage mod gun. Maller fitting w/ HP II uses 1155PG but the ship only has 1125, meaning you need atleast AWU lvl 3 to fit the guns, but you can't fit anything cruiser-sized after that and you still have 10 slots to fill Thorax fitting w/ Ion II uses 790 PG of its total 1025 leaving 235 PG for the 8 slots it has remaining. Omen W/ HP II uses 924 PG but the ship only has 912.5 so again AWU is needed along with frigate-sized mods to its remaining 9 slots. Vexor W/ Ion II uses 632 of 843.75 so 111.75 PG is left to fit 8 slots... This can be compared with autocannons and rails vs beams. Usually you'll find that amarr ships can't fit these 'built-in' damage mods without huge sacrifice. The Armageddon can barely fit megapulses, and if you choose to do so then you'd have to choose between LAR II, Cap injector and heavy NOS you can't have more than one, and that's rough on a cap-hungry ship like the 'geddon. Like someone said above, Amarr are one-trick ponies... who suck at their trick. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.03 19:29:00 -
[1527 ]
It has plenty of low slots, though, so you can usually fit a RCU2 without prolbems. More then 3 damage mod have an neglectible effect nowadays. Will only give you 2 free slots for harderners though after 3 damage mods, 1 RCU and 1 LAR.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.03 19:34:00 -
[1528 ]
Originally by: Aramendel It has plenty of low slots, though, so you can usually fit a RCU2 without prolbems. More then 3 damage mod have an neglectible effect nowadays. Will only give you 2 free slots for harderners though after 3 damage mods, 1 RCU and 1 LAR. Yeah, the geddon isn't really the problem, I know. But it's still a ***** to fit like all amarr ships - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.03 19:36:00 -
[1529 ]
Sorry i didnt give exact numbers but 1st i checked everything at my skill level (only upped projectiles to my energy turret levels) and then checked maxed skills for cap usage (was too tired to do more maths). But yep - that was the problem. ACs fit perfectly on maller leaving a LOT of spare grid. Even if you use focused pulses vs 425mm autos (heaviest cruiser ones i think) autos take just a little more grid, a little less cpu but leave a lot of CAP to play with. And the biggest difference is actually in frig guns - thats why sader IMO sucks compared to claw. Max skilled both ships have pretty similiar damage output (claw with rocket launcher etc) but... claw can fit heavier plate no problem and he can use all his cap for tackling gear, where sader not only must use smaller plate or none at all (you can try energized membranes but CPU on sader dies quickly) and eats o lot of cap. And i wont comment on wolf vs retri cause it is just... stupid. Wolf's damage is pretty similiar to retri but it is much faster and has... *gasp* 2 midslots. Only + for retri is higher natural armor (easily fixed on wolf by using plate... you have a lot of spare grid to play with. Also jaguar vs vengeance shows how ****ty khanid ships are. I tried mimicking other race setups with khanid ships and every time it was either too weak tank or not enough damage (yep: jag with 4 mids can dish same damage as veng or even more, has more mids so can go for much better tank... and is WAY faster)... Meh... guess no more whining for me for today - i reached my limit ;p And solution? Drop laser fitting req's to comparable lvls with autocannons (we STILL use cap). With 150mm t2 being 2/6 and gatling t2 6/4 (and gatling being MUCH weaker) it is retarded. Either up PG on autos to 3-4 or drop on gatlings to 4-5 (and all ppl know that it is MUCH easier to get spare CPU on frigs than spare grid).
Soratah
AmarrUbiqua Seraph Aegis Militia
Posted - 2006.08.03 19:38:00 -
[1530 ]
Still think the Abbaddon looks like a Drone boat. Thus Amarrian pilots will be fitting non-amarrian weaponry on their ships. The Abbaddon looks likes a ship in which Arty's and med slot tracking computers will be better suited than megapulses or other Large Amarrian guns. One way to solve this, rather than adjusting each of the Amarrian ships. Introduce the Racial bonus system now and make the Amarrian faction's slightly better in either damage, resists, or cap bonuses.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.03 20:18:00 -
[1531 ]
Originally by: Dixon Yeah, the geddon isn't really the problem, I know. But it's still a ***** to fit like all amarr ships True. Stuff like the omen or amarr frigs really have to looked at.
Nicocat
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.03 20:52:00 -
[1532 ]
*blinks and shakes his head* I am totally not reading through 52 pages. I never flew Amarr, but I do have lasers trained as an experiment, and know they suck up cap. I also know they hit hard as hell. So, not everyone should use these. Amarr ships have a bonus to cap usage for lasers. Ok, fine. It's their racial weapon. No other ship, ever, has a bonus to even using its own weapon, unless you count ROF/Damage bonus. No bonus to fitting/firing it. People are complaining that ALL Amarr ships have this bonus, and not a 'better' one to make lasers ubar. ... Why doesn't CCP just add a third bonus to Amarr ships? Then, nobody can use lasers well but Amarr, but Amarr can be on par with everyone. ---------------------------- The opinions expressed by Nico do not reflect his corporation. He's just an ass. -Alexi Yes, I PvP in a Hookbill. How insane am I? EVE-Mail me and tell me!
Avery Cane
Posted - 2006.08.03 20:57:00 -
[1533 ]
they dont do hit hard in pvp anymore due to everyone having 70+ resistance to em on almost ever ship flown.
Nicocat
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.03 20:58:00 -
[1534 ]
Aren't there lenses that turn the lasers into mostly thermal, or do they carry such abhorrent penalties that nobody uses them? ---------------------------- The opinions expressed by Nico do not reflect his corporation. He's just an ass. -Alexi Yes, I PvP in a Hookbill. How insane am I? EVE-Mail me and tell me!
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.03 21:06:00 -
[1535 ]
Originally by: Nicocat Aren't there lenses that turn the lasers into mostly thermal, or do they carry such abhorrent penalties that nobody uses them? Yes they have. Up to 50/50. Also if you read what i wrote on this page you will see that small projectile guns have better damage than small lasers with comparable fitting requirement. Yes - medium pulse lasers have one of highest damages from frig guns, but also have WAY higher fitting requirements (abt 2x more than a bit worse 200mm autocannon). And they still use up cap like crazy. So... we get weapon that has same or lower damage than projectiles (like gatling/dual pulse vs 150/200mm autocannon), higher fitting requirements, more cap usage, and where minimi pump up that damage EVEN higher we get... cap reduction. Sth is really wrong here.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.03 21:16:00 -
[1536 ]
Originally by: Nicocat Aren't there lenses that turn the lasers into mostly thermal, or do they carry such abhorrent penalties that nobody uses them? The *only* crystals which have more thermal than em are the t2 shortrange beam "gleam" crystals. And even there it's 53% therm, 47% EM, so it's a very narrow "mostly".
Nicocat
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.03 21:20:00 -
[1537 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nicocat Aren't there lenses that turn the lasers into mostly thermal, or do they carry such abhorrent penalties that nobody uses them? The *only* crystals which have more thermal than em are the t2 shortrange beam "gleam" crystals. And even there it's 53% therm, 47% EM, so it's a very narrow "mostly". Huh, thought it was more than that, with one of the T1 crystals. Oops =p Anyway. Minmatar have their share of problems. Out guns do max damage with EMP rounds, but those include EM and Explosive damage, both of which are tanked by someone (shields tank Exp, armor tanks EM, the tanker himself will probably block the other). Sure, you can use other ammo types (hello, phased plasma), but at reduced damage. I'd do some math if I had time and wasn't at work ;) Also, feel free to correct me if I'm totally wrong. ---------------------------- The opinions expressed by Nico do not reflect his corporation. He's just an ass. -Alexi Yes, I PvP in a Hookbill. How insane am I? EVE-Mail me and tell me!
Captin Biltmore
AmarrDamage Unlimited Inc Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.03 23:14:00 -
[1538 ]
Originally by: Nicocat Aren't there lenses that turn the lasers into mostly thermal, or do they carry such abhorrent penalties that nobody uses them? Yes, gleam. However gleam only works on beam lasers. Beam lasers won't fit on anything except battleships. And the penalties are horrid. I fit out a destroyer with all dual light beams and threw gleam on them....HAHAHAA My sig radius was the size of my Geddon with the hitpoints of my punisher. Assasin For Hire - Contact in game
Captin Biltmore
AmarrDamage Unlimited Inc Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.03 23:15:00 -
[1539 ]
Give amarr a scooby snack damnet. Assasin For Hire - Contact in game
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
Posted - 2006.08.04 04:30:00 -
[1540 ]
Long live the Amarr thread! 52 pages, a response or at least a sticky would be really nice.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.08.04 05:48:00 -
[1541 ]
Yeah a sticky would be nice, or atleast a 'we hear you and we care about your opinion'. Would the poster above me please stand up?
Jocelyn Fernos
AmarrFluffy Carebears
Posted - 2006.08.04 08:32:00 -
[1542 ]
Amarr ships/guns needs a serious look over. We trade versatility for damage or tank, atelast we should do extremly good damage which we dont or we should armor tank like no other which we also dont do. As it stands now i sadly dont really see a reason for flying amarr ships since the two things we should shine on, other races and their ships do much better, even at the same time in some cases. How to fix this? Perhaps introduce true racial skills togheter with looking over the amarr ships/weapons. An "amarr" skill that only amarr pilots can have. Perhaps it could give a bonus to armor repair/hardners resistances and/or bonus to lasers, e.g damage bonus, rof bonus, falloff bonus. With this an amarrian pilot would allways be better with his racial ship/guns vs an other race pilot with the same ship/equipment. And this would o/c be done for all the races. Just had to write something, please correct me if im totaly wrong, but that is the impression i have got from playing this game as an amarr only pilot for a year and reading threads like this. Thoughts? ------Recruiting! Proud to be a Fluffy Carebear!
Xendie
Chosen Path Center for Disease Creation
Posted - 2006.08.04 10:39:00 -
[1543 ]
with EAMN2+DCU everyone who used to have 60% EM resist now has 80% EM resist. that is a decrease of 50% effective dmg by energy weapons wich is amarr's main weapon type. that is the main problem. how would everyone else think if their dmg got nerfed by 50%. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.04 10:39:00 -
[1544 ]
Originally by: Jocelyn Fernos How to fix this? Perhaps introduce true racial skills togheter with looking over the amarr ships/weapons. An "amarr" skill that only amarr pilots can have... Thoughts? Well, speaking as a Gallente/Intaki who mostly flies Amarr ships (cue screams of "Heresy!" from both sides) I'd hate it!
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.04 10:48:00 -
[1545 ]
Originally by: Xendie with EAMN2+DCU everyone who used to have 60% EM resist now has 80% EM resist. that is a decrease of 50% effective dmg by energy weapons wich is amarr's main weapon type. 50% only for EM only crystals, aka radio. For MF it is about 30% actually.
Altai Saker
Omniscient Order Verisum Family
Posted - 2006.08.04 10:52:00 -
[1546 ]
Oh only 30% (I'm pretty sure its in the mid 40's actually but whatever you say). Clearly something is wrong, get it fixed and all can be right in the world.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.04 11:00:00 -
[1547 ]
MF L is 28 EM 20 therm. With 60% resistance in both thats 19.2 damage. With 80% EM, 60% term it's 13.6 damage. 13.6 is 70.8% of 19.2. So, for MF about 29% less damage As a sidenote, for t2 longrange combat (aurora has 2/3 EM, 1/3 therm) it's 33.3% less damage. It's of cource still a missive damage reduction, but it does not help to blow thing out of porpotion.
Altai Saker
Omniscient Order Verisum Family
Posted - 2006.08.04 11:03:00 -
[1548 ]
Thanks for clearing that up for me, I appreciate your attitude, out of curiosity would you mind doing conflagration and scorch?
max scrotes
GallenteMithril Inc Antigo Dominion
Posted - 2006.08.04 11:04:00 -
[1549 ]
not sure if this has been suggested yet but wouldn't it be an idea to lower the natural em resistance on armor by say 20% and just add a natural em resistance to shields of say 10% then slightly lower the fitting requirement of lasers? not too hard to implement i'm sure. i love my amarr ships but for PvP there is not much point in flying t1 frigs and cruisers, as everyone is naturally tanked against your main damage output, in a few cases, over 90% em resistance
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.04 11:10:00 -
[1550 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2006 11:15:19 Originally by: Altai Saker Thanks for clearing that up for me, I appreciate your attitude, out of curiosity would you mind doing conflagration and scorch? 27% for conflag, 41% for scorch. As general rule you can say the greater the range, the more pronounced the EAN2 problem gets. Originally by: max scrotes not sure if this has been suggested yet but wouldn't it be an idea to lower the natural em resistance on armor by say 20% and just add a natural em resistance to shields of say 10% then slightly lower the fitting requirement of lasers? Yes, someone suggested a bit ago to reduce armor EM resistance by 20% and increase shield EM resistance by 20% as well. Armor with a standard 40% and shield with a standard 20% basically. IMO that is an excellent idea and has the potential to solve the whole resistance issue with one single step. Ironically the increased EM resistance of shields would help us as well. Seeing the giant EM hole in their shields many shieldtankers (not that there are many in PvP) stuff that with an active EM harderner, resulting in EM often being the 2nd highest resistance for shields. With a 20% base resistance there many ST wouldn't do this anymore and instead fit another invul I think.
Nemain
AmarrObsidian Asylum
Posted - 2006.08.04 11:12:00 -
[1551 ]
Originally by: Aramendel It has plenty of low slots, though, so you can usually fit a RCU2 without prolbems. More then 3 damage mod have an neglectible effect nowadays. Will only give you 2 free slots for harderners though after 3 damage mods, 1 RCU and 1 LAR. This is a fair point, but also somthing that is a pet peeve of mine on all races ships. It always seems to me pointless to have an extra slot (mid or low) that has to be filled with a mod that enables the ship to do what a ship with one less slot can do without it. I guess the added flexibility is the reason for it but it still winds me up a bit . On a side note, I hope the nos change doesn't hurt them too bad, otherwise amarr will be back to having a pointless utility slot again. Mind u, 8/10 times mine are empty anyway as I don't have the grid or cpu to fill them. Personally I'd make them all missile slots, as usually the only thing I could fit in them that was any use with the grid/cpu left would be a malkuth rocket launcher (another thing that iritates me on the ret, with it's 1 mid and no missile hard point and stupidly high pg long range guns). Give all races a ship skill boni like in the old days, it would make life alot easier on the likes or poor old hen pecked tux, in general in my view. Mind you my view is slightly influenced by sleep deprivation so it is probaly way out
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.04 11:17:00 -
[1552 ]
One assumes that the em res goes from 60% to 80%. In reality, this is closer to 84-85% for those with EANMII's and a good damage control. Also, the next issue is that even a slight decrease in damage makes a big difference. For example, imagine a ship 5000 Armour. Lets say the Geddon does 1000dps and has no cap issues. Since Amarr do mostly EM Damage, I will take thermal out of account. Thermal is usally the second highest resist on ships nowadays. Let us say the enemy ship can tank 150dps forever. In the past, the enemy would fit 3 active hardners and would have 60% em resist. He would take 400DPS and and the enemy would repair 150dps, so thats 250dps total and the enemy would die in 20 seconds. Now, with people using 3 EANMII's and the EM resist is around 84%. The Amarr ship would be doing, lets say 16% of EM damage. Thats 160DPS being done. The enemy repairs 150dps so thats 10dps damage being done total. It would take 5000 seconds to kill the enemy. - Thats a MAJOR Nerf The numbers above is the theory and and the reality is being played out in the battlefield. You can tank gankageddons now. Apoc vs Apoc is a draw unless you switch to Missiles or projectiles. You just cant kill people unless you totally outclass them or use arbitrator/curse/pilgrim. Th ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.04 11:25:00 -
[1553 ]
Originally by: Nemain ...Give all races a ship skill boni like in the old days, it would make life alot easier on the likes or poor old hen pecked tux, in general in my view. Mind you my view is slightly influenced by sleep deprivation so it is probaly way out The problem is that it is way way way too late for something like this. We have TONs of people not flying their races ships - it's not really a good idea to penalize those for nothing.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.04 11:34:00 -
[1554 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/08/2006 11:34:39 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Lord WarATron One assumes that the em res goes from 60% to 80%. In reality, this is closer to 84-85% for those with EANMII's and a good damage control. Only if you use 3 EAN2 and 1 DC. Which would be the equivalent of 4 harderners, not 3. 2 EAN2 + 1 DC give you - with maxxed skills and the best named DC - 49.5% resistance to all. Spotted my mistake. What happens is that a Good damage control take the place of plates, though heatsinks would be better in my opinion. But even at 80% resist, the gankageddon in my example does 200dps insted of 160, meaning a total of 50dps due to the opponents 150dps repair. That is 100 seconds to kill the enemy which is unfair to the Amarr ship that spews out 1000dps!. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Lickity Split
Posted - 2006.08.04 12:22:00 -
[1555 ]
Its Friday 7:19 A.M. August 4 2006 and still no response from CCP on this issue.
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.04 12:34:00 -
[1556 ]
Fix: fitting on some lasers/amarr frigs (fixing fittings would help a lot)/khanids If we can fit guns no prob i can live with EANM t2.
Powder Monkey
Posted - 2006.08.04 12:45:00 -
[1557 ]
They don't give a sh. so you'll be better off wasting your time losing apocs and geddons
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.04 12:57:00 -
[1558 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/08/2006 12:58:00 Originally by: Powder Monkey They don't give a sh. so you'll be better off wasting your time losing apocs and geddons Apoc H: Nos, 1 smartbomb M: MWD, 2x 20km scram, EW or web L: 2 t2 reps, 3 EANMII's, rest plates/Damage control etc Tactic lock down target and use drones for the kill More viable in PvP than pretty much any other apoc I have seen even though the setup is a joke itself. Is this the direction we want PvP to go? ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.08.04 13:40:00 -
[1559 ]
Originally by: Jocelyn Fernos Amarr ships/guns needs a serious look over. We trade versatility for damage or tank, atelast we should do extremly good damage which we dont or we should armor tank like no other which we also dont do. As it stands now i sadly dont really see a reason for flying amarr ships since the two things we should shine on, other races and their ships do much better, even at the same time in some cases. How to fix this? Perhaps introduce true racial skills togheter with looking over the amarr ships/weapons. An "amarr" skill that only amarr pilots can have. Perhaps it could give a bonus to armor repair/hardners resistances and/or bonus to lasers, e.g damage bonus, rof bonus, falloff bonus. With this an amarrian pilot would allways be better with his racial ship/guns vs an other race pilot with the same ship/equipment. And this would o/c be done for all the races. Just had to write something, please correct me if im totaly wrong, but that is the impression i have got from playing this game as an amarr only pilot for a year and reading threads like this. Thoughts? Amarr only for 2 years here, and you are spot on! <3 Would the poster above me please stand up?
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.04 14:14:00 -
[1560 ]
I really wouldnt mind if we could only tank or only gank if we could only do one of them well ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.08.04 15:13:00 -
[1561 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/08/2006 12:58:00 Originally by: Powder Monkey They don't give a sh. so you'll be better off wasting your time losing apocs and geddons Apoc H: Nos, 1 smartbomb M: MWD, 2x 20km scram, EW or web L: 2 t2 reps, 3 EANMII's, rest plates/Damage control etc Tactic lock down target and use drones for the kill More viable in PvP than pretty much any other apoc I have seen even though the setup is a joke itself. Is this the direction we want PvP to go? Yes, a Vampoc was a great option, right up to the point the devs said they are going to nerf nos, yet another topic amarr need to post & fight on.
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.04 15:36:00 -
[1562 ]
What's everyone think about ditching all our resist bonuses and change it to repair amount bonus? This could possibly be a bonus applying to all amarr ships with a few exceptions which would fit in RP wise as we are supposed to be tankers. 5% bonus to repair amount per level?
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.08.04 15:42:00 -
[1563 ]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave What's everyone think about ditching all our resist bonuses and change it to repair amount bonus? This could possibly be a bonus applying to all amarr ships with a few exceptions which would fit in RP wise as we are supposed to be tankers. 5% bonus to repair amount per level? Honestly I think a 50% cap reduction is in order on all lasers, then remove the uselss bonus that left over & then ccp should poll its players for suggestions on bonuses for each ships that needs a new bonus. Repair amount on the apoc would be nice as a suggestion. But I think the Abaddon needs to be changed entirely, otherwise who cares whats done to the Apoc or Geddy, as all i'd fly would be abaddons.
Lisento Slaven
AmarrThe Drekla Consortium New Eve Order
Posted - 2006.08.04 15:49:00 -
[1564 ]
I think they are balancing weapons based on the base resists. Lasers obviously have a huge advantage against shield tankers. I've only glanced at the other weapons but blaster ammunition seems to be "rounded out" against both shields and armor. Projectiles have random ammo...and missiles...uhh...they can do whatever they want. Lasers suck against armor and completely destroy shields in general compared to other weapon systems. Is this how it's supposed to be? Are lasers only supposed to be uber effective against shields? --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Justice 4all
Posted - 2006.08.04 15:56:00 -
[1565 ]
The reason the laser's cap usage is so high is because they are (were) the most damaging weapon in eve before. So to keep people from using them on other ships CCP made them have super high cap usage and give amarr ships a cap usage bonus. HOWEVER, someone already did the math to show the EANMII+Damage Control setup has reduced our damage by 28% across the board. So we no longer have that "built in" damage mod everyone always talks about. Easy thing is to remove the cap bonus for lasers, and give lasers a 50% cap reduction. Nobody will use them on other ships still because of the EANMII problem. NOW give all those ships that had that bonus a 5% damage or ROF bonus...BINGO... We are right back to where we were before amarr got slammed by this unforseen nerf. I think (after reading all this) that this would be a very doable thing that wouldn't overpower amarr but put them back on par.
Labinstein Labor
Posted - 2006.08.04 16:06:00 -
[1566 ]
Originally by: Justice 4all The reason the laser's cap usage is so high is because they are (were) the most damaging weapon in eve before. So to keep people from using them on other ships CCP made them have super high cap usage and give amarr ships a cap usage bonus. HOWEVER, someone already did the math to show the EANMII+Damage Control setup has reduced our damage by 28% across the board. So we no longer have that "built in" damage mod everyone always talks about. Easy thing is to remove the cap bonus for lasers, and give lasers a 50% cap reduction. Nobody will use them on other ships still because of the EANMII problem. NOW give all those ships that had that bonus a 5% damage or ROF bonus...BINGO... We are right back to where we were before amarr got slammed by this unforseen nerf. I think (after reading all this) that this would be a very doable thing that wouldn't overpower amarr but put them back on par. word
Nemain
AmarrObsidian Asylum
Posted - 2006.08.04 16:21:00 -
[1567 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2006 11:27:59 Originally by: Nemain ...Give all races a ship skill boni like in the old days, it would make life alot easier on the likes or poor old hen pecked tux, in general in my view. Mind you my view is slightly influenced by sleep deprivation so it is probaly way out The problem is that it is way way way too late for something like this. We have TONs of people not flying their races ships - it's not really a good idea to penalize those for nothing. Yeah that would be bad, but what I meant was a bonus from the ship skill. I remember that amarr used to have a total cap bonus and caldari had a targetting range bonus(or somthing like that) added to the frigate skills. Not sure if they were active mind you (this was way in pre october 2003).
Lord AtTiLAs
Legion Du Lys Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2006.08.04 16:28:00 -
[1568 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Na, just make lasers use no energy and give the amarr ships a bonus for ROF or damage instead capacitator use. Hey, it worked for the minnies! You are right on that point. All Amarr ship only have 1 advantage most of the time ROF ( Which make our gun use even more CAP !! ). And the other one is to reduce something that is really bad on our ship !!! All other race got 2 specific advantage that are there to boost performance not correct a problem !! DMG + ROF that what an Armaggedon should have !!! Not that stupid -10% Capacitor that even not make laser usable for a long perious of time.... We must stop shooting to tank !!! So make the Laser use a lot less CAP and put another interesting boost rather than -10% CAP use... even if we have less damages and only EM/Therm, at least we gonna be able to TANK at the same time we attack as the Amarr are supposed to be strong at... tanking !!!
Wodin Drukvik
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.04 16:30:00 -
[1569 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Yes, a Vampoc was a great option, right up to the point the devs said they are going to nerf nos, yet another topic amarr need to post & fight on. To be fair, if there's any ship that has the fitting space to mount neutralizers, it's the Apoc.
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.08.04 17:43:00 -
[1570 ]
I wonder how long before we get to 100 pages.
Imperial Coercion
Posted - 2006.08.04 17:45:00 -
[1571 ]
Originally by: Wodin Drukvik Originally by: Cosmo Raata Yes, a Vampoc was a great option, right up to the point the devs said they are going to nerf nos, yet another topic amarr need to post & fight on. To be fair, if there's any ship that has the fitting space to mount neutralizers, it's the Apoc. ORLY? You mean the apoc with guns fitted would be able to do so much damage that it would need a full set of guns......would be able to afford to fit neuts/nos? Is this with beams or artillary? Would the poster above me please stand up?
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.04 18:05:00 -
[1572 ]
Originally by: Justice 4all HOWEVER, someone already did the math to show the EANMII+Damage Control setup has reduced our damage by 28% across the board. So we no longer have that "built in" damage mod everyone always talks about. Easy thing is to remove the cap bonus for lasers, and give lasers a 50% cap reduction. Nobody will use them on other ships still because of the EANMII problem. NOW give all those ships that had that bonus a 5% damage or ROF bonus...BINGO... We are right back to where we were before amarr got slammed by this unforseen nerf. I think (after reading all this) that this would be a very doable thing that wouldn't overpower amarr but put them back on par. It's not "across the board", but only vs the armor. While shieldtanked ships are not that common in PvP they still exist. And you always need to kill the structure as well. Also, such a change would effeciently make lasers rails which do em/therm. So much for diverse weapon system. And in either case - the problem is *not* the raw damage output. It's the resistances. Those need a rework, not the raw damage. As was suggested before, change base armor EM to 40% and base shield EM to 20%.
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.08.04 20:57:00 -
[1573 ]
BUMP! I am sticking by my guns, I say reduce laser cap useage by about 25% flat (so lasers that hypothetically use 100 base cap would use 75), change controlled burst skill to 10% reduction. (so that for each 75 cap it could be reduced to 37.5 cap) Then change all our 10% reduction bonuses to something else. Compared to the current system with maxed skills 100 cap would be reduced to 75 via controlled burst lvl 5. Then ship skills would reduce it by 50% to 37.5. same cap, but this applys to all races regarding lasers, so if they REALLY wanted to anyone COULD POTENTAILLY fit them. ALSO gallente would stop *****ing about how much cap blasters use because controlled burst would help em out. Amarr would get a roll boost because that 10% could be moved to RoF, Damage, Tank, NOS/Neut bonuses (which we SHOULD get anyways!), drone bonuses (maybe), even a missle bonus (add a launcher hardpoint or 2 to the arbi please). Amarr ships could do their job, lasers would be mostly unchanged, and our ships would fill their rolls better by having 2 bonuses instead of just one. Plus lasers really dont melt shields like i head someone saying. Shield tankers highest resists are often EM and thermal. Plus shield tanking is more efficent then armor tanking. Many amarr ships could use a 10% armor increase skill or a 5% resist skill instead of that 10% laser cap reduction, so I think my suggestion is not FUBAR.
Jormunrek
AmarrMining Bytes Inc. Center for Disease Creation
Posted - 2006.08.05 01:02:00 -
[1574 ]
Could we get a dev, ANY dev to respond in some form or fashion on this issue? Even if it's a "STFU and wait to till you find out your next emperor is of Intaki stock!" Jorm
Xordus
Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.05 01:19:00 -
[1575 ]
Originally by: DrEiak BUMP! I am sticking by my guns, I say reduce laser cap useage by about 25% flat (so lasers that hypothetically use 100 base cap would use 75), change controlled burst skill to 10% reduction. (so that for each 75 cap it could be reduced to 37.5 cap) Then change all our 10% reduction bonuses to something else. Compared to the current system with maxed skills 100 cap would be reduced to 75 via controlled burst lvl 5. Then ship skills would reduce it by 50% to 37.5. same cap, but this applys to all races regarding lasers, so if they REALLY wanted to anyone COULD POTENTAILLY fit them. ALSO gallente would stop *****ing about how much cap blasters use because controlled burst would help em out. Amarr would get a roll boost because that 10% could be moved to RoF, Damage, Tank, NOS/Neut bonuses (which we SHOULD get anyways!), drone bonuses (maybe), even a missle bonus (add a launcher hardpoint or 2 to the arbi please). Amarr ships could do their job, lasers would be mostly unchanged, and our ships would fill their rolls better by having 2 bonuses instead of just one. Plus lasers really dont melt shields like i head someone saying. Shield tankers highest resists are often EM and thermal. Plus shield tanking is more efficent then armor tanking. Many amarr ships could use a 10% armor increase skill or a 5% resist skill instead of that 10% laser cap reduction, so I think my suggestion is not FUBAR. It is my opinion that lasers are supposed to be high cap, high damage. Amarr ships have the best cap of any and as such they can maintain these weapons. Reducing cap consumption doesn't fix any of the problems lasers face. The two problems with lasers is base damage output and the fact that said damage output is in the form of the two most tankable damage types. You can argue shields are weak to lasers, but its not difficult to fill those holes and shield tanks only make up maybe 35% of the ships ingame. In order to fix energy weapons, all lasers need to do atleast 5% more damage than they do right now, or better yet they need to have either a tertiary damage type or the ability to switch damage types. Until this is addressed, lasers will continue to be underpowered in the world of eve. Xordus
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.05 02:07:00 -
[1576 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Originally by: eLLioTT wave What's everyone think about ditching all our resist bonuses and change it to repair amount bonus? This could possibly be a bonus applying to all amarr ships with a few exceptions which would fit in RP wise as we are supposed to be tankers. 5% bonus to repair amount per level? Honestly I think a 50% cap reduction is in order on all lasers, then remove the uselss bonus that left over & then ccp should poll its players for suggestions on bonuses for each ships that needs a new bonus. Repair amount on the apoc would be nice as a suggestion. But I think the Abaddon needs to be changed entirely, otherwise who cares whats done to the Apoc or Geddy, as all i'd fly would be abaddons. The same effect could be introduced by having a third built in bonus on ALL amarr ships: -50% cpu of lasers, then double the cpu requirements. That way only amarr ships fit lasers as CCP want, but we can also have double bonuses. I find it funny that on nearly all missions, my 500k SP in missiles far outdamages my 5m SP in gunnery (focused all on lasers). The raven pulls me closer each time i see one do its thing.... resistance is getting futile....
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.05 02:17:00 -
[1577 ]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 05/08/2006 02:17:39 Originally by: Xordus Originally by: DrEiak BUMP! I am sticking by my guns, I say reduce laser cap useage by about 25% flat (so lasers that hypothetically use 100 base cap would use 75), change controlled burst skill to 10% reduction. (so that for each 75 cap it could be reduced to 37.5 cap) Then change all our 10% reduction bonuses to something else. Compared to the current system with maxed skills 100 cap would be reduced to 75 via controlled burst lvl 5. Then ship skills would reduce it by 50% to 37.5. same cap, but this applys to all races regarding lasers, so if they REALLY wanted to anyone COULD POTENTAILLY fit them. ALSO gallente would stop *****ing about how much cap blasters use because controlled burst would help em out. Amarr would get a roll boost because that 10% could be moved to RoF, Damage, Tank, NOS/Neut bonuses (which we SHOULD get anyways!), drone bonuses (maybe), even a missle bonus (add a launcher hardpoint or 2 to the arbi please). Amarr ships could do their job, lasers would be mostly unchanged, and our ships would fill their rolls better by having 2 bonuses instead of just one. Plus lasers really dont melt shields like i head someone saying. Shield tankers highest resists are often EM and thermal. Plus shield tanking is more efficent then armor tanking. Many amarr ships could use a 10% armor increase skill or a 5% resist skill instead of that 10% laser cap reduction, so I think my suggestion is not FUBAR. It is my opinion that lasers are supposed to be high cap, high damage. Amarr ships have the best cap of any and as such they can maintain these weapons. Reducing cap consumption doesn't fix any of the problems lasers face. The two problems with lasers is base damage output and the fact that said damage output is in the form of the two most tankable damage types. You can argue shields are weak to lasers, but its not difficult to fill those holes and shield tanks only make up maybe 35% of the ships ingame. In order to fix energy weapons, all lasers need to do atleast 5% more damage than they do right now, or better yet they need to have either a tertiary damage type or the ability to switch damage types. Until this is addressed, lasers will continue to be underpowered in the world of eve. Xordus What do you think about if we had some varying types of crystals (still EM therm) like minmatar get. For example: leave multifrequency how it is, change Gamma to be Therm only but the same base damage (more therm, no em) - change X-Ray to EM only but the same base damage... you see where this is going. What this does is lets us focus entirely on EM if we fighting a raven - then switch to an EM/therm for its armor, or if we fighting an armor tank switch entirely to therm and still be effecient at each range ect. So in total: Multifrequency L: 28 EM, 20 Thermal (no change) Gamma L: 44 Thermal (no em) X-Ray L: 40 EM (no thermal) Ultravilot L: 24 EM 12 Thermal (no change) Standard L: 20 EM 12 Thermal (no change) Infrared L: 28 EM (no thermal) Microwave L: 24 Thermal (no EM) Radio L: 20 EM (no change) This would mean lasers can still do damage vs shields AND armor but would require some quick changes on the part of the pilot.
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.08.05 07:35:00 -
[1578 ]
Xordus, I think you totally missed my point. My proposal makes laser cap usage exactly what it is now, but using different skills instead of the way its set up now, so that amarr can get more bonuses. You have no idea how much bonuses to things (besides just DPS) can help in PvP as well. Plus there IS always room for more DPS bonuses. Please read my post and comprehend before you say that it wouldnt help.
Thraxor Blacksoul
Posted - 2006.08.05 08:46:00 -
[1579 ]
Why not just put Thermal a little more inline with EM on crystals instead of the wide gaps. Change the Standard L: to like 50/50 Thermal/EM Keep EM damage dominance for long range crystals and put Thermal damage dominance for short range crystals like 75%EM/25%Thermal to Radio and 25%EM/75%Thermal for Multis. After that take a look at the Slots and/or the Bonuses to specific problem Amarr ships instead of sweeping changes to the whole Amarr line of ships. Comments?
Hakuin
The Blackwater Brigade HUZZAH FEDERATION
Posted - 2006.08.05 09:14:00 -
[1580 ]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Nicocat Aren't there lenses that turn the lasers into mostly thermal, or do they carry such abhorrent penalties that nobody uses them? Yes they have. Up to 50/50. Also if you read what i wrote on this page you will see that small projectile guns have better damage than small lasers with comparable fitting requirement. Yes - medium pulse lasers have one of highest damages from frig guns, but also have WAY higher fitting requirements (abt 2x more than a bit worse 200mm autocannon). And they still use up cap like crazy. So... we get weapon that has same or lower damage than projectiles (like gatling/dual pulse vs 150/200mm autocannon), higher fitting requirements, more cap usage, and where minimi pump up that damage EVEN higher we get... cap reduction. Sth is really wrong here. Nah...our small pulses only have: worst Tracking worst RoF worst FallOff huge cap use cant choose dmg type worst damage types in a frigs fight (EM+Thermal) hard fitting 90% of the crystals are simply useless for a frig but we have: best optimal range (but not best overall range because good falloff + almost no optimal >>>> good optimal + almost no falloff ) 2nd best damage mod (small blasters >>>> small pulses in ANYTHING except optimal range) Makes sense to me... ________In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few. - In Rust We Trust -
Udyr Vulpayne
AmarrPIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.05 11:04:00 -
[1581 ]
seeing how people realize that we do sucky damage due to the high em resistances lasers face i'm wondering why most seem to think that the obvious answer to that is to give lasers more damage. the problem lies with the em resistance not the base damage on lasers...so fix/tweak the resistance instead of making lasers even more powerful against ships which can not fit an eanmII tank or are shieldtanking. a way to achieve that would be reducing the base em resistance on armor and increasing it on shields. regarding the laser-capuse bonus i would most certainly welcome a change there as well. as it is now that bonus is just wasted on many of our ships. it works nice on the omen/zealot/geddon as they also get a laser-rof bonus. if one wanted to remove the bonus from all ships and reduce laser capuse (in itself, as a general bonus on amarrian ships or even with the use of improved skills as has been suggested) one would have to be careful when it comes to asigning new bonuses. an omen/geddon which would use the same cap as before but had 2x damage bonuses would be a bit much considering lasers are supposed to have a builtin damage bonus. so maybe that builtin bonus would have to go as well if you got a new bonus for it. for our gankships that wouldnt be much of a problem as they could just get a new damage bonus instead (no change there) and our tankships could get something more useful for their tanking role and still be able to use lasers (with reduced damage). ships where it could be replaced by sth else: 1. crucifier: doesnt matter much here as this one isnt used a lot anyway 2. our missing 6th frig...under the current system it would no doubt have scanprobe duration and laser cap bonuses..resulting in one wasted bonus as such a ship propably wouldnt be used as a damage dealer anyway. shouled get a tanking bonus instead. ah yes even more important it should get released in the first place. or at least give the crucifier the scanprobe bonus instead of the laser one. 3. punisher: i would rather have another tanking bonus like armor hitpoints, cap increase or cap recharge or a laser damage/rof bonus here like on the proposed abaddon. 4. maller: same as punisher 5. prophecy: same as punisher 6. apoc: same as punisher only that this one should get the resist bonus. 7. purifer: i dont really see why theres any laser-related bonus on that thing 8. some of the khanid mkII ships if they ever see the light of day maller and punisher could also use some launcher slots or a dronebay (both without bonuses) to give them some more options. one way to improve that situation without removing the bonus completely would be to make the laser-cap bonus to apply to all laser sizes to allow more efficent use of undersized turrets on our tanking boats. as those ships (like the maller) dont get a damage bonus for their size guns people often use smaller guns on them to take advantage of their tanking bonus. if you decide to use lasers for that purpose your not only losing damage and range but you can also get into a situation where the smaller guns use the same or even more cap than the correct sized ones which defeats the idea to get a better tank going by undersizing. this leads people to use projectiles or undersized hybrids on our tanking ships as those guns dont suffer from such a penalty for undersizing. in any case the bonus is wasted if you want to get a good tank out of those ships.
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.05 11:14:00 -
[1582 ]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 05/08/2006 11:13:56 cmon someone reply to my idea ^ btw CCP you know we are going to take this to 1,000 pages if we have to right? how big is the biggest thread ever on eve-o?
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.05 11:24:00 -
[1583 ]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne seeing how people realize that we do sucky damage due to the high em resistances lasers face i'm wondering why most seem to think that the obvious answer to that is to give lasers more damage. the problem lies with the em resistance not the base damage on lasers...so fix/tweak the resistance instead of making lasers even more powerful against ships which can not fit an eanmII tank or are shieldtanking. a way to achieve that would be reducing the base em resistance on armor and increasing it on shields... At least someone eelse who sees this..I've almost given up. The EAN2 problem is really only really severe on the BC and BS lvl. For frigates it is a nonfactor. Although lasers have there other problems because our shortrange lasers have the *worst* tracking of all shortrange weapons and the way tracking works when orbiting at high speed (see here ). But, again, that is no laser issue, but a general tracking issue. And cruisers usually do not have enough slots to mount a 3 harderner tank without gimping their setup. And, nevermind that boosting laser damage so it would be equal against EAN2 tanker armor vs other weapon would whack things out of balance vs untanked setups and shieldtankers. And a 10% controlled bursts would also help gallente quite a lot. I have nothing against balancing other races, but in this apsect gallente plain out do not need any boost. As said before, make armor EM resistance 40%. Would give lasers effeciently about a 20-25% dps boost vs armor. And in exchange increase shield resistance to 20%. Which would actualyl help lasers as well. because shieldtankers owuld be much less likely to fit an EM only harderner to stuff their resistance hole. The basic problem of lasers is really that they are too specialized. They are to good vs shields (so good that shieldtanking people use EM only harderners and negate the bonus) and too bad vs armor. Making them a bit better vs armor (but still the worst weapon against them, just not by that an huge amount) and a bit worse against shield (but still the best weapon against them, just...) seems to me the perfect solution. And while this is done you might as well balance the NPC resists as well. Because the "too specialized" problem applies there too. Increase blood/sansha EM resistance a bit and reduce gurista/angels a bit. I would be really nice to be able to rat npcs exept blood/sanshas halfway effeciently as amarr. You know, like all other races can do.
Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.05 11:29:00 -
[1584 ]
Edited by: Hellspawn01 on 05/08/2006 11:29:16 You can talk about solutions and issues but nothing will be getting boosted or even fixed in a better way as long as tuxford has the nerfhammer. (Tuxford, prove that I¦m wrong )Ship lovers click here
Udyr Vulpayne
AmarrPIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.05 11:38:00 -
[1585 ]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 05/08/2006 11:13:56 cmon someone reply to my idea ^ alright then: while i think it would be nice to get some therm heavy crystals i wouldnt go for more single damage type crystals but rather have some crystals which use mainly therm but still have an em-component and the other way around.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.05 11:41:00 -
[1586 ]
Yes, considering we are the *only* race whose longrange ammo does mostly one (easily tankable) damagetype it would be nice if our shortrange ammo could then at least do the opposite.
Mahavy Seth
AmarrImperial Academy
Posted - 2006.08.05 11:47:00 -
[1587 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne seeing how people realize that we do sucky damage due to the high em resistances lasers face i'm wondering why most seem to think that the obvious answer to that is to give lasers more damage. the problem lies with the em resistance not the base damage on lasers...so fix/tweak the resistance instead of making lasers even more powerful against ships which can not fit an eanmII tank or are shieldtanking. a way to achieve that would be reducing the base em resistance on armor and increasing it on shields... At least someone eelse who sees this..I've almost given up. The EAN2 problem is really only really severe on the BC and BS lvl. For frigates it is a nonfactor. Although lasers have there other problems because our shortrange lasers have the *worst* tracking of all shortrange weapons and the way tracking works when orbiting at high speed (see here ). But, again, that is no laser issue, but a general tracking issue. And cruisers usually do not have enough slots to mount a 3 harderner tank without gimping their setup. And, nevermind that boosting laser damage so it would be equal against EAN2 tanker armor vs other weapon would whack things out of balance vs untanked setups and shieldtankers. And a 10% controlled bursts would also help gallente quite a lot. I have nothing against balancing other races, but in this apsect gallente plain out do not need any boost. As said before, make armor EM resistance 40%. Would give lasers effeciently about a 20-25% dps boost vs armor. And in exchange increase shield resistance to 20%. Which would actualyl help lasers as well. because shieldtankers owuld be much less likely to fit an EM only harderner to stuff their resistance hole. The basic problem of lasers is really that they are too specialized. They are to good vs shields (so good that shieldtanking people use EM only harderners and negate the bonus) and too bad vs armor. Making them a bit better vs armor (but still the worst weapon against them, just not by that an huge amount) and a bit worse against shield (but still the best weapon against them, just...) seems to me the perfect solution. And while this is done you might as well balance the NPC resists as well. Because the "too specialized" problem applies there too. Increase blood/sansha EM resistance a bit and reduce gurista/angels a bit. I would be really nice to be able to rat npcs exept blood/sanshas halfway effeciently as amarr. You know, like all other races can do. So all weapons will be always more similar... just take one ship and one weapon type... CCP is not able to make different things and maintain balance... that a fact
Wheya
AmarrBruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
Posted - 2006.08.05 13:02:00 -
[1588 ]
The idea to remove em resistance from armor and to add this resistance to shields is a very shortsighted quickfix with terrible effects in the long run. Shield tanking already is more powerfull than armor tanking especially if you look at incredibly overpowered faction mods. The only reason why we don't see many shield tankers is because ECM > shield tank > armor tank. Shield tanking doesn't need a boost and armor tanking doesn't need a nerf. EANII and invulnerable shieldhardeners are overpowered compared to 'standard' hardeners. That's the problem. The only reason why we don't see minnies complain about incredible high explosive resistance on shields is because almost nobody is shield tanking. There is almost nobody shield tanking because there are so many usefull/must have modules for med slots available: webber, scrambler, AB, MWD and did I mention EW?
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.05 13:26:00 -
[1589 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 05/08/2006 13:29:07 Originally by: Wheya The idea to remove em resistance from armor and to add this resistance to shields is a very shortsighted quickfix with terrible effects in the long run. Shield tanking already is more powerfull than armor tanking especially if you look at incredibly overpowered faction mods. The only reason why we don't see many shield tankers is because ECM > shield tank > armor tank. Shield tanking doesn't need a boost and armor tanking doesn't need a nerf. Faction mods are out of balance, yes. But that is a thing about faction mods, not of the general armor/shield tanking balance. For t2 stuff armor and shieldtanking are pretty much in balance. And, again, the problem amarr have with shieldtanks is the big EM hole of those. For a shieldtank is is for an all-purpose setup *better* to use a 1 EM + 2 Invul setup than 3 Invul fields. With a 20% base EM resist a 3 invul setup would be more effective, on the other hand. Quote: EANII and invulnerable shieldhardeners are overpowered compared to 'standard' hardeners. That's the problem. Thought so, too, but it really isn't. EAN2 are too strong for a passive module and Invul2 could use a slight nerf to 25% or so, but all those mdoules did was making the real problem visible. Which is quite simple - there are way more armortankers in the game than shieldtankers. Even if you balance EW. The so-called lasers advantage to kill shields quicker simply does not balance out their disadvantage vs armor, simply because there are too many of the latter and too few of the first. You would need to make *all* minnie ships shieldtankers to do that..or change the armor and shieldresistances. Quote: The only reason why we don't see minnies complain about incredible high explosive resistance on shields is because almost nobody is shield tanking. ..and because they can use ammo with high EM or Thermal damage.
Lisento Slaven
AmarrThe Drekla Consortium New Eve Order
Posted - 2006.08.05 13:45:00 -
[1590 ]
The best idea I have read about to "fix" what EANM II's "broke" is to change the resistances. I think it was 40% EM on armor and...uhh either 10% or 20% on shield someone suggested? As for the fitting requirements on the smaller turrets and any of the other "problems" that were suggested I don't recall hearing uber great ideas =P The armor "fix" above would still retain our shield pwnage authority but it would give us more leeway with armor tankers than the EANM II + DC combo gives right now... --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Sorela
Gallente
Posted - 2006.08.05 14:04:00 -
[1591 ]
Talking about resists I think what could use some real looking at is the often overlooked mathematic reality: 30% resist = 43% HP bonus 60% resist = 150% hp bonus This is a huge discrepancy that's supposed to be offset by the fact that shields are the opposite. But when you start talking about active boost tanking then the shields make up very little of the total HP overall. The same is true of course for shields and explosive but as others have said shield tanking is kind of uncommon in PvP. The idea of taking some em resist off armor and putting it on shields though seems a bit odd to me. Personally I'd say explosion/em should just flat out both be lowered from 60 to 50 in general.
KillerLU
VakAtioth
Posted - 2006.08.05 16:15:00 -
[1592 ]
hmm noone proposed to reduce the bonus on the resistance skills. Wasn't it that what caused the use of EAMIIs, instead of active tanking? Just so a thought...
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.08.05 16:32:00 -
[1593 ]
Originally by: KillerLU hmm noone proposed to reduce the bonus on the resistance skills. Wasn't it that what caused the use of EAMIIs, instead of active tanking? Just so a thought... Blanket changing those skills would effentially nerf EANM:s overall and making them in some aspects pointless and changing just one of the resistance skills would be just...inconsistent. If CCP were to change any resistance related stuff, changing the EM base resistance would be the best choice imo. ________________________________________________ Originally by: Nidhoggur How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.05 17:31:00 -
[1594 ]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: KillerLU hmm noone proposed to reduce the bonus on the resistance skills. Wasn't it that what caused the use of EAMIIs, instead of active tanking? Just so a thought... Blanket changing those skills would effentially nerf EANM:s overall and making them in some aspects pointless and changing just one of the resistance skills would be just...inconsistent. If CCP were to change any resistance related stuff, changing the EM base resistance would be the best choice imo. changing base resistances isn't really feasible... where would these missing percentages go? Give them to sheilds? No, I think this problem is with EANMs. They use less cpu than a active hardener, use no cap and give (with high skill investment though) way to high resistances for a passive module. Atleast invulnerability fields use more cap than regular hardeners... but EANMs have no drawbacks.. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Barry Grisham
Posted - 2006.08.05 19:01:00 -
[1595 ]
I support this thread dispite my hate for those filthy slaver scum Ammar.
Udyr Vulpayne
AmarrPIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.05 19:16:00 -
[1596 ]
the problem isnt that the eanmII+skills combo is too good. for exp, kin and therm the resistances are still comparable to what you got with the specific hardeners before. and the whole point of adding those skills propably was to make tanking easier so i wouldnt want to see them gone completely. here are several way to adress this problem: 1. change base em resits on armor and shield to bring them a bit more inline with the others. maybe 40%/45% em resist on armor and 20%/15% on shields (just an example... havent checked the exact numbers of how that would look after nano plates). problem: in order to avoid things getting too bland care must be taken to ensure that base em resistance is still the highest on armor and lowest on shields. while the general idea of having a damage type which works best against shields/armor by such a significant margin as we have with em/expl and our current base resistances sounds rather nice but ends up highly unbalanced when you dont have an equal amount of armor and shieldtanks and lack a somewhat equal spread of damagetypes across the different races. for em damage its a lot worse than explosive here because em-damage is mostly found with amarrian ships which also dont get (m)any alternatives to using it. also: the same should propably be done for shield expl. resistance just in case shieldtanks gain popularity for some as of yet unpredictable reason. 2. change the resistance bonus gained from adaptive nanos to be inversely proportional to the base resistance values. em would be barely boosted at all followed by therm and kinetic with explosive getting the highest boost. when you then use 3 of these plates you should get the following results: (a) em gets 0% in boost with the other 3 reachign approx. the same values they would reach with 3x active hardeners. OR (b) em gets a small boost with the other 3 reaching values significantly above a 3x active hardener setup (to a point where exp, kin and therm damage would each lose as much effectiveness as em does) OR (c) em gets a small boost while exp, kin and therm would need to end up _significantly_ below the effect of a 3 active hardener setup. this way you would at least buy your increased em resistance with a lack of more general resistance. this disadvantage would have to be big enough to really make a difference. problem: actually more of a question...should a 3x adaptive nano setup always be more efficient when it comes to a general purpose tank? 3. remove the compensation skills and just forget about the whole idea. problem: the intended bonus to tanking would be somewhat lost. 4.a increase damage of lasers (em part only), em missiles and em drones OR 4.b give lasers another damagetype problems: (a) not really a good idea as that would also work against shields and unhardend targets. (b) doesnt really solve the problem with em damage but tries to go around it + you end up with a damagetype noone really uses of those ideas i would personally prefer a combination of 1 and 2(c) but i'm sure there are a few more ways to tackle the problem.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.05 20:00:00 -
[1597 ]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne the problem isnt that the eanmII+skills combo is too good. for exp, kin and therm the resistances are still comparable to what you got with the specific hardeners before. and the whole point of adding those skills propably was to make tanking easier so i wouldnt want to see them gone completely. *snip* Even if the EM resistance gets lowered to 40% it would still be 70% after EANM + DC and we'd still have the problem of lasers having the top-tanked resists on their damage output. The EANMs are screwing tanking up by using less CPU and cap than active hardeners AND giving higher EM resist while lowering expl/kin/therm by a small amount, it's pretty much a no-brainer fit. BTW, what would happen to active-hardener tanking if EM resist is suddenly lowered to 40%? Then you'd need 4 actives to get the same result as 2eanmIIs + DC... that's just wrong. The problem IS EANMII+DC tanking and the EANMIIs need a nerf TBH. The compensation skills would still be useful for the specific passive hardeners. The suggestion of lowering EM res bonus on EANMIIs is just as wrong as lowering the base resists. The EANMIIs need to either use more CPU/grid than the other energized plates (like invul. fields use double the cap of specifics). This would make them hard to fit on anything smaller than a BC and some BS would have trouble finding the extra CPU. Or just a good nerf to 17.5% to all resists. Which would make them much less effective than specifics (as they should be) and we'd only see them on ships that are low on slots or CPU. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Trind2222
Posted - 2006.08.05 20:13:00 -
[1598 ]
Remove 10% bonus to Energy Turret capacitor use on all ammar ship fix the powergrid on all lassers and lower cap uce Replace the bounus to 5% Rate of Fire or 5% Traking pr lvl ,10% bonus to Energy optimal range per level. That is my suggestions.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.05 20:22:00 -
[1599 ]
Originally by: Trind2222 Remove 10% bonus to Energy Turret capacitor use on all ammar ship fix the powergrid on all lassers and lower cap uce Replace the bounus to 5% Rate of Fire or 5% Traking pr lvl ,10% bonus to Energy optimal range per level. That is my suggestions. What is this obsession with the CAP reduction bonus? All races have their signature bonus. Gallente: 5% hybrid damage Caldari: 10% to missile velocity - 10% to hybrid optimal on railboats Minmatar: 5% RoF on projectiles Amarr: 10% laser cap reduction All these bonuses make the racial weapon system usable/more effective... why should amarr be different? Would it really help to reduce cap usage on lasers and change the bonus to damage (given that laser damage would be nerfed to make up for the cap reduction)? We'd still be in the same place, without our damage bonus lasers would suck just like they suck without the cap reduction... - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Udyr Vulpayne
AmarrPIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.05 20:55:00 -
[1600 ]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 05/08/2006 20:55:32 Originally by: Dixon Even if the EM resistance gets lowered to 40% it would still be 70% after EANM + DC and we'd still have the problem of lasers having the top-tanked resists on their damage output. which is why i would prefer a combination of reducing the base em resist on armor and changing the way adaptive nanos work. for example you could get em resistance down to 50% (60% for minmatar) and have adaptive nano plates with different boosts for the different resists like i wrote earlier. using 3x eanm+ skills and depending on how you tweak the nanos you could then end up with a somewhat higher em resistance (maybe 65% or so) and the other 3 increased but still significantly (10% or thereabouts) below what you would get with active hardeners. Originally by: Dixon BTW, what would happen to active-hardener tanking if EM resist is suddenly lowered to 40%? Then you'd need 4 actives to get the same result as 2eanmIIs + DC... that's just wrong. if you drop it that low then yes..active hardening would need more modules than adaptive nano plates. however as i said it all depends on how you tweak the nanos. a 4x active hardeners tank could easily get your resists a lot higher than 3x eanmII or even 3x eanmII+dc. while i agree that the fitting cost/cap need on eanm gives them a large avantage over active hardeners i would not try and solve the problem with changed fitting/cap requirements alone. that would just remove them from the smaller ships and (like you wrote) still leave the problem for the bc/bs level. and in most that is alreday where the problem can be found cases. also...3 adaptive nanos dont need to be worse than specific hardeners in order to keep the specific still useful. even now those are still in use when you want to go for specific resists (fit 2x active hardeners of the same type and ignore some others) or when you want to go for really high resists and combine both.
Udyr Vulpayne
AmarrPIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.05 21:18:00 -
[1601 ]
Originally by: Dixon All these bonuses make the racial weapon system usable/more effective... why should amarr be different? Would it really help to reduce cap usage on lasers and change the bonus to damage (given that laser damage would be nerfed to make up for the cap reduction)? We'd still be in the same place, without our damage bonus lasers would suck just like they suck without the cap reduction... 1. you can easily avoid that by giving our gankships a damage bonus instead of the capuse bonus makeing them just as good as they were before. 2. you gain more choice of possible bonuses when it comes to the rest of our ships as they dont need to have this bonus just to work with lasers anymore. and more importantely even with the bonus lasers dont work well on them. 3. the problem with being stuck with a laser bonus for all our ships is that due to their high capneed (even after the bonus) and their very high fitting requirements they are not really useful for our other line of ships which happens to be tanks. add to that that we dont really have an alternative like using missiles or drones on those ships and you end up with a wasted bonus because people fit autocannons and blasters on their mallers. so in the end we would have no change on our gank ships and could get useful bonuses for the others.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.05 21:20:00 -
[1602 ]
Originally by: Dixon Even if the EM resistance gets lowered to 40% it would still be 70% after EANM + DC and we'd still have the problem of lasers having the top-tanked resists on their damage output. Yes. But these 10% reduction from 80% to 70% would still be an effective 50% boost to EM armor damage. Do not underestimate this. Lasers should remain the least effective weapon against armor, that is their weakness and flavour, the problem ist that this effeciency deficit is too huge. EAN2, while being too strong for a passive module, has only just recently shown this. Also, fixing EAN2 will not solve it. I thought the same way, but then I really *thought* about it. Lets say EAN2 gets fitting requs and cap usage similar to the invul field. What would happen? For laser dps purposes, nothing. People would sacrifice more recources to fit them, but would fit them nontheless. Especially at the BS lvl, which is where the EAN2 problem is most visible. Balancing them will only make tanking harder, not help to fix the laser resistance imbalance. Don't get me wrong, IMO EAN2 is too strong and needs to be balanced. It just won't help lasers as much as you think. Quote: BTW, what would happen to active-hardener tanking if EM resist is suddenly lowered to 40%? Then you'd need 4 actives to get the same result as 2eanmIIs + DC... that's just wrong. No, you won't. Or, better: You *already* need 4 (t1) actives to get the same result as 3 EAN2. It doesn't matter there if base EM resist are 10% or 90%, 3 EAN2 will reduce it by about 50% after base resists. As would an active harderner.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.05 21:44:00 -
[1603 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Yes. But these 10% reduction from 80% to 70% would still be an effective 50% boost to EM armor damage. Do not underestimate this. Not really it's more like a 33.3% boost. Originally by: Aramendel Lasers should remain the least effective weapon against armor, that is their weakness and flavour, the problem ist that this effeciency deficit is too huge. EAN2, while being too strong for a passive module, has only just recently shown this. There was no problem with laser damage before EANMIIs. But I agree that they should be weak against armor, as they were, but currently it's gone too far. Originally by: Aramendel Also, fixing EAN2 will not solve it. I thought the same way, but then I really *thought* about it. Lets say EAN2 gets fitting requs and cap usage similar to the invul field. What would happen? For laser dps purposes, nothing. People would sacrifice more recources to fit them, but would fit them nontheless. Especially at the BS lvl, which is where the EAN2 problem is most visible. Balancing them will only make tanking harder, not help to fix the laser resistance imbalance. Again, tanking didn't get easier with EANMIIs as they actually lower all resists by a small percentage and only boost EM (this is compared to the old 3x active hardeners tank). Although fitting becomes easier with passive tanks they hardly matter on BS level. Originally by: Aramendel Don't get me wrong, IMO EAN2 is too strong and needs to be balanced. It just won't help lasers as much as you think. I firmly believe that if active tanking will reclaim it's former popularity lasers will become more effective, or as effective as they were. Originally by: Aramendel No, you won't. Or, better: You *already* need 4 (t1) actives to get the same result as 3 EAN2. It doesn't matter there if base EM resist are 10% or 90%, 3 EAN2 will reduce it by about 50% after base resists. As would an active harderner. Yeah, I know that came out all wrong... What I meant to say was that with EM resists lowered active tankers would feel the need to put an active EM-hardener to keep resistances balanced and that doesn't help tanking at all... or lasers for that matter. I want active, specific-hardening to be viable again. Currently it's rather poor compared to passive-hardening, that's just not balanced. Having passive modules on the same level as active ones is ridiculous. Passive hardeners would still be a smart choice on smaller ships where cap usage is important but active modules should always be more efficient due to their cap use. And EANMIIs should be a slot-efficient way to have a decent tank, they shouldn't be as effective as actives while still using less slots. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Alekzander
CaldariScorn.
Posted - 2006.08.05 21:52:00 -
[1604 ]
This thread is still going... geeze... I've never flown amarr or used lasers, but I'd still support having the em/thermal damage swapped on laser crystals. Why? Cause it would be an indirect boost to shield tanking.
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross
Posted - 2006.08.05 21:52:00 -
[1605 ]
(-shameless bump for a thread that doesn't need it :P) just wanted to get in on the soon to be the....LONGEST THREAD IN THE WORLD ..(read that part w/ an echoing voice) I have to say i'm not sure what the problem is in iceland, maybe global warming getting to everyone... but how can it be easy as cheese to fly caldari, tricky to fly gallente (you have to remember your drones! :P) and so balz-2-the wall for minnies and scum sucking slavedriverrrr er uh amarr. well... atleast us minnies have gotten somewhat looked at a bit in the last few months. But amarr seem to have the $h1T end of the stick... especially in damage types.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.05 23:27:00 -
[1606 ]
Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Aramendel Yes. But these 10% reduction from 80% to 70% would still be an effective 50% boost to EM armor damage. Do not underestimate this. Not really it's more like a 33.3% boost. Noooo? You deal 33.3% less with 80% than you do with 70%, but you do 50% MORE with 70% then with 80%. If you really demand it I can calculate it for you with raw numbers Quote: There was no problem with laser damage before EANMIIs. But I agree that they should be weak against armor, as they were, but currently it's gone too far. Because this was compensated by people using 3 harderners only because EAN were so weak that they were plain out not an option. 2 wrongs made 1 right there. Quote: Again, tanking didn't get easier with EANMIIs as they actually lower all resists by a small percentage and only boost EM (this is compared to the old 3x active hardeners tank). Although fitting becomes easier with passive tanks they hardly matter on BS level. Not with the hull resists boni from the DC included. Quote: I firmly believe that if active tanking will reclaim it's former popularity lasers will become more effective, or as effective as they were. Only if they nerf EAN2 to their pre-RMR status, aka unuseable. If they *balance* them (for example making them a 25% active items similar to invul fields) the problem will stay the same. If you think people will use single resistance active harderners more then think again. Quote: Yeah, I know that came out all wrong... What I meant to say was that with EM resists lowered active tankers would feel the need to put an active EM-hardener to keep resistances balanced and that doesn't help tanking at all... or lasers for that matter. But still as least priority since it will still be the highest base resistance on armor. Quote: I want active, specific-hardening to be viable again. Currently it's rather poor compared to passive-hardening, that's just not balanced. Having passive modules on the same level as active ones is ridiculous. Passive hardeners would still be a smart choice on smaller ships where cap usage is important but active modules should always be more efficient due to their cap use. Active, agreed. Specific, no. I fully agree with your "Having passive modules on the same level as active ones is ridiculous." comment. But specific type vs multi type are balanced well enough. Specific type are better for PvE (yes, yes, EVE is a PvP game, but PvE is still a major factor), Multi are better for PvP. The difference between them is a tad to small currently, though. -------------------- Anyway, the main point is that armor, unlike shields, had no real "resist all" harderner option pre-RMR. Because of this the basic problem of lasers (too good vs shields (so good that shield tankers harden extra for it, totally removing this advantage), too bad vs armor) only got really noticeable for most players since then. I would think that RP corps like PIE, which only use amarr ships and whose enemies know and exploit this, would have been able to tell you that lasers are comapred to other weapons too easy to counter before, though.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.05 23:56:00 -
[1607 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Noooo? You deal 33.3% less with 80% than you do with 70%, but you do 50% MORE with 70% then with 80%. Bah... just another way of looking at it. Happy Amarr pilot: "Hey I got a 50% damage boost" Evil Gallente pilot with huge moustache: "no, that guy got a 33.3% resistance nerf" Not happy anymore Amarr pilot: *down on knees and shaking fists violently* "NOOOOOO!!"Evil Gallente pilot with huge moustache: "I am t3h uber!" Quote: Because this was compensated by people using 3 harderners only because EAN were so weak that they were plain out not an option. 2 wrongs made 1 right there. Yeah, my point exactly... there was no problem. Now there is a problem. That makes me wonder if the changes shouldn't be rewoked. Quote: Not with the hull resists boni from the DC included. The hull resists are nice, but they hardly count as tanking. Quote: Only if they nerf EAN2 to their pre-RMR status, aka unuseable. If they *balance* them (for example making them a 25% active items similar to invul fields) the problem will stay the same. If you think people will use single resistance active harderners more then think again. EANMIIs weren't unusable, they weren't as common but they still could make a difference for a frig/cruiser with tough fittings. Quote: But still as least priority since it will still be the highest base resistance on armor. Least priority or not, it will still tower the other resistances and that's just not going to work as long as lasers can only do EM and thermal. Quote: Anyway, the main point is that armor, unlike shields, had no real "resist all" harderner option pre-RMR. Because of this the basic problem of lasers (too good vs shields (so good that shield tankers harden extra for it, totally removing this advantage), too bad vs armor) only got really noticeable for most players since then. The problem is that when you tank a ship, you will try to get resistances within 5% of eachother while keeping them as high as possible. When you have modules like EANMIIs and InvulIIs that can boost all resists with less slots than specifics you will get towering expl resistances on sheilds and towering EM resists on armor. Now I don't think minmatar pilots like the fact that their t2 ammo is t3h suck against sheild tanks. But they still have a choice to change their primary damage type, a choice that Amarr don't have. Now this coupled with the value of medslots in pvp making sheild tanks very rare is making lasers a crappy choice for PvP. And while Amarr don't have any other weapons, Amarr become crappy for PvP. This isn't because EM is the highest resistance on Armor. It's because we now have a "resist-all" module that has done horrible things to Amarr. I don't like tweaking the base resists because of one unbalanced module, there was no problem prior to EANMII tanks. They tried to fix something that wasn't broken... and they broke it. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.06 00:19:00 -
[1608 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 06/08/2006 00:19:53 Originally by: Dixon Bah... just another way of looking at it. Happy Amarr pilot: "Hey I got a 50% damage boost" Evil Gallente pilot with huge moustache: "no, that guy got a 33.3% resistance nerf" Not happy anymore Amarr pilot: *down on knees and shaking fists violently* "NOOOOOO!!"Evil Gallente pilot with huge moustache: "I am t3h uber!" Sorry to be a nitpick here, but in this case, no I said "damage boost". You said "boost" too. "Resistance nerf" is a bit different. Quote: The problem is that when you tank a ship, you will try to get resistances within 5% of eachother while keeping them as high as possible. When you have modules like EANMIIs and InvulIIs that can boost all resists with less slots than specifics you will get towering expl resistances on sheilds and towering EM resists on armor. Now I don't think minmatar pilots like the fact that their t2 ammo is t3h suck against sheild tanks. But they still have a choice to change their primary damage type, a choice that Amarr don't have. Now this coupled with the value of medslots in pvp making sheild tanks very rare is making lasers a crappy choice for PvP. And while Amarr don't have any other weapons, Amarr become crappy for PvP. This isn't because EM is the highest resistance on Armor. It's because we now have a "resist-all" module that has done horrible things to Amarr. I don't like tweaking the base resists because of one unbalanced module, there was no problem prior to EANMII tanks. They tried to fix something that wasn't broken... and they broke it. Not exactly, they tried to make the armor "resist all" harderners equally "useable" like invul fields. This lead to several side effects, one beeing the EM resistance issue. EAN2 are not balanced due to their passive nature, but that does not really have to do anything with the laser issue. They could be like invul fields and the problems would be identical. Balancing EAN2 will not remove the problem, only if they get nerfed enough that their use is so rarely that they are a nonissue. But, sorry, that is not "balancing". The boost of resist all harders is IMO a good change, it adds to diversity. The laser problem is old, old old. It just wasn't visible before. I'd rather fix an old wrong. Or change all Minimatar ships to shieldtankers. I'm sure they would *love* that.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.06 00:45:00 -
[1609 ]
Quote: Sorry to be a nitpick here, but in this case, no I said "damage boost". You said "boost" too. "Resistance nerf" is a bit different. Yeah, when you're right you're right... but a 'resistance nerf' is still what we were talking about. A resistance nerf that would lead to a 50% damage boost to EM damage. Quote: Not exactly, they tried to make the armor "resist all" harderners equally "useable" like invul fields. This lead to several side effects, one beeing the EM resistance issue. Yeah, making them useable isn't a problem. But when you make them so useable that they become the primary hardening mod for armor you've gone too far. Quote: EAN2 are not balanced due to their passive nature, but that does not really have to do anything with the laser issue. They could be like invul fields and the problems would be identical. Not identical really, they would then be cap hungry and thus less used. And if they were active they'd also have tougher fittings. But they still have everything to do with the laser problem as they boost a resistance that doesn't really need boosting. EM hardeners are still almost unheard of (unless you're hunting sanchas). And while thermal and EM were still the highest resists on 3xactive tanks lasers still took a larger DPS hit on armor compared to other weapons. Now if you want lasers to be useful against armor you will need to nerf EANMs or lower base EM resists, which makes more sense? Quote: Balancing EAN2 will not remove the problem, only if they get nerfed enough that their use is so rarely that they are a nonissue. But, sorry, that is not "balancing". Proper balancing would make them what all passive hardeners should be, usable but not an automatic choice. Like a supplementary nice lil' resist boost when you've placed your hardeners in your armor holes. Quote: The boost of resist all harders is IMO a good change, it adds to diversity. But EANMIIs have done the opposite, they have replaced active hardeners. Quote: The laser problem is old, old old. It just wasn't visible before. I'd rather fix an old wrong. The laser problem wasn't visible before because it wasn't a problem. Quote: Or change all Minimatar ships to shieldtankers. I'm sure they would *love* that. Or better yet, make Amarr and gallente sheildtankers and make projectile ammo do only expl and kin... that would atleast solve the current laser issue. And matarians will whine anyway so it's a win-win - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.08.06 03:05:00 -
[1610 ]
/me does the dev dance. Its kinda like a raindance where you hope to bring rain, only in this case I am hoping to attract a dev. The arbi works because its a drone ship for amarr. We can use the best of amarr ships (armor) and mix it with any damage type (drones) and fit decent EW, and we get bonuses for both. In PvP damage is almost irrelevent to ones ability to target jam, NOS, and warp jam. That is why I am polling for the changes that I am. the 10% cap reduction could be any number of more useful bonuses. The fact that no other race requires a ship bonus spacifically for the purpose of being able to fit their main weapon seems absurd. Make laser cap usage the same for all races by boosting controlled burst to 10% and reducing the base cap usage of lasers by 25%. What does that change with lasers? Actually nothing, the only difference is that amarr ships can get rid of the 10% cap reduction and get a second bonus. A second ship bonus would make our ships fill their rolls better (like the arbi which isnt slave to damage type, and lack of fitting options). An apoc with 5% resist and 7.5% rep amount (or 10% armor boost) would be awesome assuming that laser cap usage doesnt increase or decrease. A geddon with 5% RoF and 10% falloff or 5% optimal, or 5% damage, or 5% speed, or 5% NOS/NEUT amount bonus would rawk, again assuming laser cap usage didnt increase or decrease. If our ships got 2 bonuses like all the other races our gimped damage would be less of an issue because our ships would be able to fit their rolls better.
Ecnav
Gallentehirr Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.06 04:11:00 -
[1611 ]
Edited by: Ecnav on 06/08/2006 04:11:41 This is the longest thread I have ever seen in my Eve lifetime. Edit: Typo __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ I don't have a sig
Trind2222
Posted - 2006.08.06 06:06:00 -
[1612 ]
Originally by: DrEiak /me does the dev dance. Its kinda like a raindance where you hope to bring rain, only in this case I am hoping to attract a dev. The arbi works because its a drone ship for amarr. We can use the best of amarr ships (armor) and mix it with any damage type (drones) and fit decent EW, and we get bonuses for both. In PvP damage is almost irrelevent to ones ability to target jam, NOS, and warp jam. That is why I am polling for the changes that I am. the 10% cap reduction could be any number of more useful bonuses. The fact that no other race requires a ship bonus spacifically for the purpose of being able to fit their main weapon seems absurd. Make laser cap usage the same for all races by boosting controlled burst to 10% and reducing the base cap usage of lasers by 25%. What does that change with lasers? Actually nothing, the only difference is that amarr ships can get rid of the 10% cap reduction and get a second bonus. A second ship bonus would make our ships fill their rolls better (like the arbi which isnt slave to damage type, and lack of fitting options). An apoc with 5% resist and 7.5% rep amount (or 10% armor boost) would be awesome assuming that laser cap usage doesnt increase or decrease. A geddon with 5% RoF and 10% falloff or 5% optimal, or 5% damage, or 5% speed, or 5% NOS/NEUT amount bonus would rawk, again assuming laser cap usage didnt increase or decrease. If our ships got 2 bonuses like all the other races our gimped damage would be less of an issue because our ships would be able to fit their rolls better. QFT
MacQueen
AmarrParty of One
Posted - 2006.08.06 07:28:00 -
[1613 ]
Originally by: Ecnav Edited by: Ecnav on 06/08/2006 04:11:41 This is the longest thread I have ever seen in my Eve lifetime. Edit: Typo Well, it is, lots of problem, lots of suggestions, lots of idea, almost imposible to summarise them up now. The thing is Tux is going to use the Abaddon as a counter to this threat, kind of simple, instant solution to just divert people's attention to different way. But, the problem of Amarr still remain. Even with the new ships. Soon, or even for now, apoc will be obsoleted, geddon will be a diposable ships, take it out for fleet combat with full insurance and accept the fact that it so fragile due to no tank, just happy with the insurance and buy another ships, join another fleet. That's all it is for now, no expecting, no chance for solo BS vs BS ganking. The problem is not fixed, I do understand how hard it is to do a complete overhaul for a race right in the middle of Kali. But, let keep this going, we can wait. I will wait. Watching the paint dry, watching the long skills training rank 8 to level 5, arent most of us experienced that ?? ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Jormunrek
AmarrMining Bytes Inc. Center for Disease Creation
Posted - 2006.08.06 10:46:00 -
[1614 ]
Back to page 1 for you! Maybe today a dev will see you. 8) Jorm
Xendie
Chosen Path Center for Disease Creation
Posted - 2006.08.06 10:49:00 -
[1615 ]
screw amarr, train for another races ships instead as tuxford and CCP apparently has it in for anyone flying amarr ships. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Devoras2
AmarrConfederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.06 11:25:00 -
[1616 ]
Originally by: Xendie screw amarr, train for another races ships instead as tuxford and CCP apparently has it in for anyone flying amarr ships. I have already begun... Dev And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Perry
AmarrThe X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.08.06 11:44:00 -
[1617 ]
I refuse to fly Junk, blinking Lego briks or organic waste ^^ There was a time when Lasers looked evil and sounded like wuuuuuuuuushhhh... Recently they look omglolyouuselasers and sound pew pew
Jormunrek
AmarrMining Bytes Inc. Center for Disease Creation
Posted - 2006.08.06 12:15:00 -
[1618 ]
Pew Pew is our mark of distinction! Well, that and I fly an overgrown banana. But it's an overgrown banana that goes "pew pew pew". *quietly crawls into a corner mutter something about it'll all be okay, one day the devs will notice this novel that Hemmingway would think had too many pages...* Jorm
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.06 12:46:00 -
[1619 ]
In Eve, there have been many balance and imbalace issues. Usually they get sorted out, however people dont relise what the issue is. Amarr PvP is limited to vampire droneship setups such as the Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim and other things like the Vampoc setups due to the fact that lasers are a total waste of time. Fighting NPC's and yes, there is a point to lasers, since NPC's done use EANMII's + Damage controls. The problem is that we need a 4 inch hole and all we are asking for a drill. But people think the Drill is overpowered and fail to relise that the drill is to be used only for this issue. The drill is the the solution to the problem, it is the direction that you take to solve the issue. With this said, Amarr have to really have a Missile or Drone focus, or you may as well change laser bonus's to Projectile bonuses. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.06 12:54:00 -
[1620 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Fighting NPC's and yes, there is a point to lasers, since NPC's done use EANMII's + Damage controls. OH RLY? http://npc.elfarto.com/view.php?id=22841 http://npc.elfarto.com/view.php?id=23340
Nifel
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.08.06 13:28:00 -
[1621 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 06/08/2006 13:01:23 Originally by: Lord WarATron Fighting NPC's and yes, there is a point to lasers, since NPC's done use EANMII's + Damage controls. OH RLY?Angels and Guristas certainly do. Now, Sanshas have pretty much the same resistances in reverse for exp/kin, but unlike Amarr Minnies can easily switch to another ammo type, so that is a nonissue forthem unless they find it profitable to rat with t2 ammo. And Therm & EM resistances for gallente are far more constant across all NPCs. The only NPCs amarr ships are really good against are bloods and sanshas. Anyone ratting with minmatar (other than the phoon now) just plain sucks in the head. Autocannons are the worst thing ever invented for ratting :(. And you can forget artillery... So like... can everyone here that think ratting with minmatar is the greatest thing ever invented since sliced bread chill out and complain about the raven instead? If you're serious about npcing you should train up that anyway... 1 month of training until you can use it for ratting? Hardly something to cry about now is it? "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
MacQueen
AmarrParty of One
Posted - 2006.08.06 13:29:00 -
[1622 ]
Originally by: Jormunrek Back to page 1 for you! Maybe today a dev will see you. 8) Jorm Well, they do see this, they did read this, no and absolutely no doubt about it. Keep it on first page for players to see it, actually. I'm really thinking what if we can organise a strike, the strongest way to attract attention. Let say 1000 or more Amarr accounts declare cancel of subcription for 1 month. That will be something new :) The first strike in internet game history :) :) Of course, we wont expect to turn Amarr to a wtfpwn race, but at least, an open discussion about actual balancing direct with Dev will be interesting. If we win, then it's good, if we lose, it's also good because at least we dont have to wait, wait and wait for respond anyway :) Oh well, it's a dream :) :) ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.06 14:04:00 -
[1623 ]
On the EAN II issue: The problem is that the passive "resists to all" module combined with the DC and the way the stacking penalty works means that all other forms of tanking (active, plated) are worthless. While the boost to tanking is laudable, Amarr were indirectly nerfed because the EAN and tanking changes acutally devalued lowslots even more than they already were. Here is an example. Pre tanking boostActive kin hardener Active expl hardener Active thermal plate repper =60/60/60/60 resists and extra armor hp. Balanced but favored Amarr tankers as we had more lows. Post tanking boostEAN II EAN II Damage Control Repper =80/60/60/60 resists and hardened hull acts as a plate. Unbalanced against Amarr (primarily EM, no way to change, 50% damage reduction more vs other damage types) and indirectly nerfed Amarr because you simply don't need that many extra lows, especially with the stacking penalty to damage mods. Tanking needs to be shifted back away from EAN II's and back to individual hardeners. This will help with the 80% resist EM resists. Tanking (both shields and Armor) as well as low slots need a boost by boosting plates and extenders. Neither plates nor extenders have the "uber" stacking problems resists have. We need more survivability in pvp, and making plating easier to fit will get that.Tanking Fix Suggestions Nerf EAN II's to 13% or 14% resists to all. Boost individual passive hardeners to 20% with the same cpu needs as EAN II's or possibly 5 less cpu needed. Reduce all plate CPU needs to 1tf. Reduce plate grid needs MASSIVELY on the larger ones making them easier to fit. Frigates don't need to be flying plated, but BS ships should be able to fit several without completely nerfing thier setup. Whats the point of having 8 lows if you can't fit plates in the last couple of slots? Plating needs to be more attractive to BC and BS sized ships, while not being attractive to frigs. non stacking % penalties to speed does this nicely rather than adding mass penalties. Example: 1 plate = 20% less top speed. 3 plates = 20% less top speed. Go back and adjust shield hardeners in a similar way. That helps cruisers, BCs and Bs, especially those with lots of low slots (Gallente and Amarr). New Tanking Boost Passive Kin Hardener Passive Exp Hardener Passive Thermal Hardener DC Repper Possibly plates That helps Amarr ships across the board, and encourages longer battles by boosting tanking. It also helps cruisers, BCs and Bs, especially those with lots of low slots (Gallente and Amarr) because it makes extra lows more usefull again and provides incentive to put plates on a ship.Frigate Tanking Fix 60% base resist to weapons that primarily do EM because they are long range makes Amarr friggies suck. Besides fixing the guns (fitting) and the frigates themselves this reason alone is the enough to warrant a change from Radio crystals being 100% EM to a 50%/50% mix of EM and thermal, just like all the other racial long range ammo. TAO, Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Tiuwaz
MinmatarOmacron Militia Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.06 16:17:00 -
[1624 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Tanking Fix Suggestions Nerf EAN II's to 13% or 14% resists to all. Boost individual passive hardeners to 20% with the same cpu needs as EAN II's or possibly 5 less cpu needed. Reduce all plate CPU needs to 1tf. Reduce plate grid needs MASSIVELY on the larger ones making them easier to fit. Frigates don't need to be flying plated, but BS ships should be able to fit several without completely nerfing thier setup. Whats the point of having 8 lows if you can't fit plates in the last couple of slots? Plating needs to be more attractive to BC and BS sized ships, while not being attractive to frigs. non stacking % penalties to speed does this nicely rather than adding mass penalties. Example: 1 plate = 20% less top speed. 3 plates = 20% less top speed. Go back and adjust shield hardeners in a similar way. That helps cruisers, BCs and Bs, especially those with lots of low slots (Gallente and Amarr). Nyxus 1) Eanm II's werent a problem before the new tanking skills got introduced, so why are you nerfing them to be worse than before RMR 13-14% with maxed skills would be 16,25-17,5, compared to the 20% of an eanm II without skills if your intention is to nerf it completely useless then you are on the right track 2)uh individual passive t2 hardeners have 37,5% resists, so i am not sure what you want here, boost them anymore and they are better than active hardeners, if you want them nerfed to 20% then oke Oo (also they use the same fitting reqs as ean II currently) 3)uh why? 4) oO, you can equip several of the largest plates on battleships, you just have to sacrifice soemthing normally (drop down a tier for the guns for example), reducing the grid req's would severly unblance the cruiser class who would be enabled to fit 1600mm plates. Besides i see absolutely no reason why plate grid should be reduced in the first place. Secondly wouldnt that hurt amaar when plateswould be easier to fit (60% standard em resist on armour) 5) similar to 4, and what do you intend to do with shield tanking bcs/bs? besides stacking penalties exist for a reason 6) i assume you talking about shield passive hardener here, which also have 37,5% resists Truning pvp into a "who can fit most plates" competition is not balance. Unless i understood something wrong, when you talked about the passive hardeners (20% individual ones and eanII only gives 13-14% now), I have to say research a bit before you post clueless stuff. Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.06 19:05:00 -
[1625 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 06/08/2006 19:06:54 One solution on the EANMII issue is to allow the skill to bump up a active hardner by 1-2% per level WHEN the hardner is active. So a 50% t1 hardner becomes a 60% with lvl5 in the apropriate em/therm/exp/kin skill. HOWEVER This does not solve the problem - Only transfers it! The problem is lack of damage due to resists - which is only countered by more damage or different damage types. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.06 23:03:00 -
[1626 ]
I edited my earlier post for clarity. Trying to post the morning after you have been drinking is not a good idea, expecially if you haven't had any coffee. Let me respond to Tiuwaz. Originally by: Tiuwaz 1) Eanm II's werent a problem before the new tanking skills got introduced, so why are you nerfing them to be worse than before RMR 13-14% with maxed skills would be 16,25-17,5, compared to the 20% of an eanm II without skills if your intention is to nerf it completely useless then you are on the right track That's *EXACTLY* what I want to do to them. The issue is that with skills on the EAN IIs you now get better resists, with fewer slots, for much less CPU. It's too strong and it nerfed Amarr who have EM damage and lots of low slots. What used to take 4 active hardeners, a repper and a plate (6 lows) now takes 2 EANIIs, a DC, and a repper (4 lows). It needs to be shifted back to individual hardening. If the individual passives gave 50% resists with skills everyone would use them, expecially if you knocked the CPU need down to 26 or so versus the 30 for EAN IIs. The ENORMOUS nerf to EM damage is due completely to the fact of EANIIs being a "no brainer" module to fit for tanking. We need to encourage indiviual hardeners again. Quote: Why (reduce plates to CPU to 1tf?) Balance. Enabling ships to plate easier. Armor tanking ships (Mega, Tempest, Geddon) are ALL tight on CPU. REALLY tight. A large T2 shield extender on a raven takes up 1.7% of it's total CPU, even before bonuses to CPU. A large T2 1600mm plate takes up 6% of the total cpu on a Pest or Geddon. Grid and number of low slots should be the limiting factor for plates, not grid AND cpu. Quote: you can equip several of the largest plates on battleships, you just have to sacrifice soemthing normally (drop down a tier for the guns for example), reducing the grid req's would severly unblance the cruiser class who would be enabled to fit 1600mm plates. Besides i see absolutely no reason why plate grid should be reduced in the first place. Tanking needs a boost without another overall boost to the HP of every ship. At the same time low slots need an easily to fit mod that results in longer battles without ending with ships that you can't kill without a specific high number DPS(the omfg 99% resist problem). A large T2 shield extender uses 1.7% of a Raven's grid. A large T2 plate uses 3.7% of a Pest or Mega. Doesn't sound like much, but it is. It's also what allows ships like the Vaga to run around with 2 large extenders. Plates should be easier to fit to encourage longer fights. I would also like to see a general boost to shield/armor amounts on plates and extenders. This helps Amarr the most because it provides a tangible benefit to having lots of lows, although it helps all tankers in general. Quote: what do you intend to do with shield tanking bcs/bs? besides stacking penalties exist for a reason Extenders are already easier to fit than plates. Both extenders and plates could use an armor/shield amount increase. While a decrease in fitting reqs makes oversized plates easier to fit, penalizing oversizing can be done via mass. In addition, since no one really wants to see ceptors running around with 2 plates, but a BS with 2 plates should be not only fine but encouraged, plate penalties should be %s that effect smaller ships and have small effects on large ones. Speed is an easy example. Making them non stacking keeps plated BS from going 2 m/s which is a HUGE problem that anyone who has ever flown an Impel with expanders that stack can tell you. Oversizing penalties can be used without nerfing appropriate sizing very simply. If the % of the Armor plate you are trying to mount is over a specific % of the overall armor of the ship you will get a mass penalty. If not, no appreciable mass penalty. 5 plates on a BS? No penalty. 1600mm plate on a cruiser? Penatly. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.06 23:09:00 -
[1627 ]
Originally by: Tuiwuz Truning pvp into a "who can fit most plates" competition is not balance. No, but low slots need more tangible benefits than they do now. There also needs to be slight adjustments to balance out extenders and plates. Battles need to be longer still, and so tanking through HP needs to be encouraged since tanking through resists can be extremely problematic with the current implementation. Boosting plates and extenders provide a good solution to these problems. While they may effect all ships, they effect Amarr the most as we have more lows as the "armor tanking" race. The Raven avoids these issues currently by simply using ECM, but hopefully that won't last forever. Plates, and through it tanking and Amarr especially, need some love. Longer fights 4tw. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Stamm
AmarrGALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.06 23:14:00 -
[1628 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Tuiwuz Truning pvp into a "who can fit most plates" competition is not balance. No, but low slots need more tangible benefits than they do now. There also needs to be slight adjustments to balance out extenders and plates. Battles need to be longer still, and so tanking through HP needs to be encouraged since tanking through resists can be extremely problematic with the current implementation. Boosting plates and extenders provide a good solution to these problems. While they may effect all ships, they effect Amarr the most as we have more lows as the "armor tanking" race. The Raven avoids these issues currently by simply using ECM, but hopefully that won't last forever. Plates, and through it tanking and Amarr especially, need some love. Longer fights 4tw. Nyxus Should be fairly simple to balance out plates. Just adjust the stats on what we have already. The plates run 50mm to 1600mm, and run from useless, to cruiser *****ble. They could be redesigned so they run from interceptor to battleship, and possibly a new BPO should be seeded for 3200 and 6400mm plates, for carriers/dreads/motherships/titans.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.07 11:07:00 -
[1629 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Tuiwuz Truning pvp into a "who can fit most plates" competition is not balance. No, but low slots need more tangible benefits than they do now. There also needs to be slight adjustments to balance out extenders and plates. Battles need to be longer still, and so tanking through HP needs to be encouraged since tanking through resists can be extremely problematic with the current implementation. Boosting plates and extenders provide a good solution to these problems. While they may effect all ships, they effect Amarr the most as we have more lows as the "armor tanking" race. The Raven avoids these issues currently by simply using ECM, but hopefully that won't last forever. Plates, and through it tanking and Amarr especially, need some love. Longer fights 4tw. Nyxus Longer fights are transfering the issue. But longer fights in a way that help Amarr is quite simply a Massive structure boost all round (perhaps even 2-5x, or even 10x). Makes little difference to tanking, longer pvp and actualy then lasers would be able to do something useful. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Stephar
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.08.07 11:23:00 -
[1630 ]
Edited by: Stephar on 07/08/2006 11:23:25 Hmm, was just doing a side-by-side comparison of Amarrian & Caldari ships. Our Punisher > Maller > Prophecy > ______ line is almost identical to their Merlin > Moa > Ferox > Rokh line. Caldari get a shield resist bonus, Amarr get one to armor. The Caldari +10% optimal bonus could be called a "hidden" damage bonus (can use higher damage ammo at longer ranges), and Amarr know all about "hidden" damage bonuses. Really the main difference is the Caldari line is complete, while the Amarr line only runs up through the battlecruiser level. Score: Caldari 1, Amarr 0. Hybrids, like lasers, can only do two damage types. Lasers do EM/thermal, Caldari do kinetic/thermal. Not much of a contest here. Caldari 2, Amarr 0. And that is just a comparison of our primary gunboats . Isn't that our bread & butter? The combination of tanking and ganking? I was a bit surprised to see that the Caldari gunboats may in fact be superior to the Amarrian versions. Keep in mind that I haven't even mentioned some of the other ships like the Raven, Scorpion, Cerberus, Crow, etc. Looks like you'd have to be insane to train up Amarr at this stage in the game. Does anyone have any experience with the Merlin/Moa/Ferox series, and how they compare in comparison to the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy line? I've been pondering whether or not to switch over to Caldari, and this may be my final straw.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.07 11:30:00 -
[1631 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Longer fights are transfering the issue. But longer fights in a way that help Amarr is quite simply a Massive structure boost all round (perhaps even 2-5x, or even 10x). Makes little difference to tanking, longer pvp and actualy then lasers would be able to do something useful. This would make damage controls an essential, do-not-leave-the-house-without module, though.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.07 11:41:00 -
[1632 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/08/2006 11:41:18 Originally by: Stephar Edited by: Stephar on 07/08/2006 11:23:25 Hmm, was just doing a side-by-side comparison of Amarrian & Caldari ships. Our Punisher > Maller > Prophecy > ______ line is almost identical to their Merlin > Moa > Ferox > Rokh line. Caldari get a shield resist bonus, Amarr get one to armor. The Caldari +10% optimal bonus could be called a "hidden" damage bonus (can use higher damage ammo at longer ranges), and Amarr know all about "hidden" damage bonuses. Really the main difference is the Caldari line is complete, while the Amarr line only runs up through the battlecruiser level. Score: Caldari 1, Amarr 0. Hybrids, like lasers, can only do two damage types. Lasers do EM/thermal, Caldari do kinetic/thermal. Not much of a contest here. Caldari 2, Amarr 0. And that is just a comparison of our primary gunboats . Isn't that our bread & butter? The combination of tanking and ganking? I was a bit surprised to see that the Caldari gunboats may in fact be superior to the Amarrian versions. Keep in mind that I haven't even mentioned some of the other ships like the Raven, Scorpion, Cerberus, Crow, etc. Looks like you'd have to be insane to train up Amarr at this stage in the game. Does anyone have any experience with the Merlin/Moa/Ferox series, and how they compare in comparison to the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy line? I've been pondering whether or not to switch over to Caldari, and this may be my final straw. Correct. At the moment, the only dangerous Amarr ships are 1. Pilgrim - Because it uses Drones 2. Curse - Because it uses Drones 3. Arbitrator - because it uses Drones 4. Archon - Because it Uses Drones 5. I guess the Aeon - Because it uses Drones.... Lots of drones.... To be honest, imagine a battle between the Amarr Titan vs the Amarr Archon or Aeon. - If the Amarr Titan uses lasers, its not going to kill the Archon or Aeon. Both these ships can tank the Titan EM doomsday without much problems, But the Archon or Aeon could kill the Amarr Titan with drones though. If the Amarr Titan uses Projectiles - Then the Amarr titan has a chance of winning. :) ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Kirov VIII
Posted - 2006.08.07 11:46:00 -
[1633 ]
CCP, you have a little boosted the BS amarr long range for which the players use the amarr battleship in PvP ... Tachyon are usable now and the aurora L are a little overpowered em/thermal damage (radio L = only EM) and 40% range bonuse with a false malus. -25 tracking in long range, it's not important ... Now, you have again amarr BS in PvP but you don't have correcting the problem of the amarrs !!! If there are a lot of BS caldari or minmatar, you canno't have the time for shoot all NPC before this npc repop ... You shoot 3-4 BS NPC and they repop ... You have no choice, tank all npc and shoot the primary target (The NPC named). You take about 1h for shoot because you have a lot lot lot of problem for shoot the shield. Em/Thermal are bad against a raven and you don't have the choice (no drones/no launcher). It's very good !!! But amarr is the alone race which take 1h for shoot a NPC !!! This is a true problem !!!
Morkus Rex
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.07 11:51:00 -
[1634 ]
Originally by: Stephar Looks like you'd have to be insane to train up Amarr at this stage in the game. Does anyone have any experience with the Merlin/Moa/Ferox series, and how they compare in comparison to the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy line? I've been pondering whether or not to switch over to Caldari, and this may be my final straw. Most use the Ferox as a missile ship, and is an great ship... even with my bad missile skills. The new Caldari BC will be awesome!! I'm only 1 step from starting training Caldari BS _____________________________________________ Our users will know fear and cover before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
Snipes123us
Posted - 2006.08.07 11:57:00 -
[1635 ]
the new caldari BS is sweet. I pray every night CCP fixs the Amarr race soon since i fly mostly Amarr.
Lickity Split
Posted - 2006.08.07 12:19:00 -
[1636 ]
Its 7:16am cst on monday august 7th and still no response from devs on what i think is the longest thread in eve ever. Is it the longest? if it isnt i dont remember a longer one.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.07 12:22:00 -
[1637 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/08/2006 12:24:24 Originally by: Lickity Split Its 7:16am cst on monday august 7th and still no response from devs on what i think is the longest thread in eve ever. Is it the longest? if it isnt i dont remember a longer one. Its longer than all the wcs threads put together - And unlike the WCS whines, the issues here are Genuine destroying a great turret race. We need to hear if something is in the pipeline - Otherwise I will have to buy the caldari BS skillbook ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
The ArchWarder
Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.07 12:31:00 -
[1638 ]
Edited by: The ArchWarder on 07/08/2006 12:32:35 I cant use T2 guns on a BS yet but even if i could i cant justify paying up to 80 million JUST to get 8 short range and 8 long range T2 crystals. Is the price likley to be changed at all? because right now its like having another fully fitted BS in your cargohold when you go boom.
Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.07 12:51:00 -
[1639 ]
Originally by: Morkus Rex Originally by: Stephar Looks like you'd have to be insane to train up Amarr at this stage in the game. Does anyone have any experience with the Merlin/Moa/Ferox series, and how they compare in comparison to the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy line? I've been pondering whether or not to switch over to Caldari, and this may be my final straw. Most use the Ferox as a missile ship, and is an great ship... even with my bad missile skills. The new Caldari BC will be awesome!! I'm only 1 step from starting training Caldari BS Rail ferox is actualy better for NPC imo. You can still mount the same passive tank (just use pds instead of spr) like a missile ferox (just needs AWU 3 :-)) It has the added benefit of 2 free missile slots, where I use rocket launchers and defenders/rockets to shoot down incomming large missiles or frigs. I cannot compare to Amarr ships, as I do not fly them, but a corpmate specs in Amarr and is quite satisfied with Prophecy. ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.07 12:59:00 -
[1640 ]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Morkus Rex Originally by: Stephar Looks like you'd have to be insane to train up Amarr at this stage in the game. Does anyone have any experience with the Merlin/Moa/Ferox series, and how they compare in comparison to the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy line? I've been pondering whether or not to switch over to Caldari, and this may be my final straw. Most use the Ferox as a missile ship, and is an great ship... even with my bad missile skills. The new Caldari BC will be awesome!! I'm only 1 step from starting training Caldari BS Rail ferox is actualy better for NPC imo. You can still mount the same passive tank (just use pds instead of spr) like a missile ferox (just needs AWU 3 :-)) It has the added benefit of 2 free missile slots, where I use rocket launchers and defenders/rockets to shoot down incomming large missiles or frigs. I cannot compare to Amarr ships, as I do not fly them, but a corpmate specs in Amarr and is quite satisfied with Prophecy. As you can see, its mostly Amarr PvP pilots complaining. Few NPCing pilots are complaining about NPCing - The amarr ships are ok for NPCing Sansha and Bloods and all other NPC rats such as Angels etc are very inefficent to kill in amarr ships. For PvPing, even a 1000dps gankageddon is now a joke due to people using EANMII's and Damage Controls. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.07 13:01:00 -
[1641 ]
Originally by: The ArchWarder Is the price likley to be changed at all? because right now its like having another fully fitted BS in your cargohold when you go boom. This is the killer with using T2 lasers in fleet actions. Rails and projectiles can get away with carrying a couple of hundred shots per gun (or less) so limiting their financial loss if it all goes boom. Laser users are stuck with - as you say - carrying a whole spare (uninsured!) BS in their hold. Not sure what the solution could be - reduce mineral cost and number of shots by a factor of 5 or 10? And hope the reduced cost works through to the market?
Oosel
Nightmare Holdings Armorum Unitas
Posted - 2006.08.07 13:04:00 -
[1642 ]
maybe its not so much as the amarr ships are gimped as with skills i find them up to the task but not great.....but more the fact that the ravens etc of this world are just to easy to get into and use dealing all 4 types of damage and still able to tank etc and now with precision missiles also able to pop frigs like the used to b4 the missile revamp dare i say the other ships might want a little nerfing other than buffing just the amarr
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.07 13:04:00 -
[1643 ]
Originally by: Lucre Originally by: The ArchWarder Is the price likley to be changed at all? because right now its like having another fully fitted BS in your cargohold when you go boom. This is the killer with using T2 lasers in fleet actions. Rails and projectiles can get away with carrying a couple of hundred shots per gun (or less) so limiting their financial loss if it all goes boom. Laser users are stuck with - as you say - carrying a whole spare (uninsured!) BS in their hold. Not sure what the solution could be - reduce mineral cost and number of shots by a factor of 5 or 10? And hope the reduced cost works through to the market? T2 Ammo costs etc is not the real issue - Anyone Training up Amarr BS must remember that it is only good for 1 thing - NPCing Blood/Sansha. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.07 13:07:00 -
[1644 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Morkus Rex Originally by: Stephar Looks like you'd have to be insane to train up Amarr at this stage in the game. Does anyone have any experience with the Merlin/Moa/Ferox series, and how they compare in comparison to the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy line? I've been pondering whether or not to switch over to Caldari, and this may be my final straw. Most use the Ferox as a missile ship, and is an great ship... even with my bad missile skills. The new Caldari BC will be awesome!! I'm only 1 step from starting training Caldari BS Rail ferox is actualy better for NPC imo. You can still mount the same passive tank (just use pds instead of spr) like a missile ferox (just needs AWU 3 :-)) It has the added benefit of 2 free missile slots, where I use rocket launchers and defenders/rockets to shoot down incomming large missiles or frigs. I cannot compare to Amarr ships, as I do not fly them, but a corpmate specs in Amarr and is quite satisfied with Prophecy. As you can see, its mostly Amarr PvP pilots complaining. Few NPCing pilots are complaining about NPCing - The amarr ships are ok for NPCing Sansha and Bloods and all other NPC rats such as Angels etc are very inefficent to kill in amarr ships. For PvPing, even a 1000dps gankageddon is now a joke due to people using EANMII's and Damage Controls. So basicaly, the multi-resist hardeners on shield and armor are gimping the game ? Because with 3 armor hardeners you have good resists allround. maybe EANM could be made active or exception to armor compensation skills (use cap like a DCU, so actual very very little). that way ppl have to think about the hardeners they fit. ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.07 13:14:00 -
[1645 ]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Morkus Rex Originally by: Stephar Looks like you'd have to be insane to train up Amarr at this stage in the game. Does anyone have any experience with the Merlin/Moa/Ferox series, and how they compare in comparison to the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy line? I've been pondering whether or not to switch over to Caldari, and this may be my final straw. Most use the Ferox as a missile ship, and is an great ship... even with my bad missile skills. The new Caldari BC will be awesome!! I'm only 1 step from starting training Caldari BS Rail ferox is actualy better for NPC imo. You can still mount the same passive tank (just use pds instead of spr) like a missile ferox (just needs AWU 3 :-)) It has the added benefit of 2 free missile slots, where I use rocket launchers and defenders/rockets to shoot down incomming large missiles or frigs. I cannot compare to Amarr ships, as I do not fly them, but a corpmate specs in Amarr and is quite satisfied with Prophecy. As you can see, its mostly Amarr PvP pilots complaining. Few NPCing pilots are complaining about NPCing - The amarr ships are ok for NPCing Sansha and Bloods and all other NPC rats such as Angels etc are very inefficent to kill in amarr ships. For PvPing, even a 1000dps gankageddon is now a joke due to people using EANMII's and Damage Controls. So basicaly, the multi-resist hardeners on shield and armor are gimping the game ? Because with 3 armor hardeners you have good resists allround. maybe EANM could be made active or exception to armor compensation skills (use cap like a DCU, so actual very very little). that way ppl have to think about the hardeners they fit. Exactly. EANs are gimping Amarr. They need to be nerfed so that with skills they only give 20% (reduce thier cpu use or something). Then they need to boost passive individual hardeners so that with skills they provide about 50% hardening. That would push tanks back to 3 hardeners, 1 DC, and a repper. Cost more lows (good for Amarr) and normal hardening profiles would move back to 60/60/60/60 which is balanced. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Lickity Split
Posted - 2006.08.07 13:29:00 -
[1646 ]
i would rather boost amarr than nerf the energized adaptive nanos. every races ships in this game except amarr have gotten a boost. ccp wants the battles to last longer so nerfing the eans more than likely is not going to happen, but amarr have to have a boost, either by reducing the cap use on the guns alot and giving them all a better bonus or something.
Oosel
Nightmare Holdings Armorum Unitas
Posted - 2006.08.07 13:30:00 -
[1647 ]
Edited by: Oosel on 07/08/2006 13:30:17 double post
Ather Ialeas
Viziam
Posted - 2006.08.07 13:46:00 -
[1648 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/08/2006 12:24:24 Originally by: Lickity Split Its 7:16am cst on monday august 7th and still no response from devs on what i think is the longest thread in eve ever. Is it the longest? if it isnt i dont remember a longer one. Its longer than all the wcs threads put together - And unlike the WCS whines, the issues here are Genuine destroying a great turret race. We need to hear if something is in the pipeline - Otherwise I will have to buy the caldari BS skillbook I'd like to remind you that this is the fourth Amarr thread, there was two about 11-page long ones and one ~24 page long and then this. ________________________________________________ Originally by: Nidhoggur How could I possibly be wrong, using the figures directly from Eve?
Lisento Slaven
AmarrThe Drekla Consortium New Eve Order
Posted - 2006.08.07 13:47:00 -
[1649 ]
They're not going to change the damage types because they don't see a problem with it. You have to remember that the only argument that has some ground is the one against EANM II's + DC. I haven't seen anyone complain about the Invuln Field + DC effect on explosive damage for shields. Then again there's no one who deals strictly explosive damage =P Amarr have always been shield killers and I don't think CCP has any plans on making the Amarr effective against armor users any time soon. Has anyone considered what nerfing EANM II's would do to people who don't use them to begin with? Or how about reducing EM resists on armor against people who don't use EANM II's+DC combo? There ARE people who don't use EANM II + DC combo in pvp you know. A lot of people who don't use it actually. I just wish shield tanking was more viable in PVP but it never will be with the necessity of all those other mid-slot modules in PVP (webber, TD, scrambler, ECM, ECCM, AB, etc. etc. etc. etc.). If shield tanking was useful for PVP maybe we wouldn't have a problem...since PVP is the biggest complaint with Amarr ships... --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Stephar
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.08.07 14:09:00 -
[1650 ]
There's a variety of ways to handle the EANM issue. For example, they could make it an active module like the damage control where you can only have 1 active at a time. Make its cap usage moderately higher than single damage hardeners. Of course, this would probably tick off everybody who has trained their compensation skills to level 5... but I think any nerf to EANM would have that effect.
Stephar
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.08.07 14:12:00 -
[1651 ]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven Has anyone considered what nerfing EANM II's would do to people who don't use them to begin with? Or how about reducing EM resists on armor against people who don't use EANM II's+DC combo? There ARE people who don't use EANM II + DC combo in pvp you know. A lot of people who don't use it actually. Very good point, and something that needs to be taken into consideration.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.07 14:22:00 -
[1652 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/08/2006 14:23:54 Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Lisento Slaven Has anyone considered what nerfing EANM II's would do to people who don't use them to begin with? Or how about reducing EM resists on armor against people who don't use EANM II's+DC combo? There ARE people who don't use EANM II + DC combo in pvp you know. A lot of people who don't use it actually. Very good point, and something that needs to be taken into consideration. Well, the people that dont use EANMII + DC for tank in PVP tend to use.... WCS :) but most ships that dont use EANMII's that I tend to see are Amarr ships which need as many heatsinks to make up for the loss in damage output. Actually, lets solve the problem by gimping everyone. Give Active hardners the boost from the skill as well so insted of the standard 80/60/60/60, we get 60/80/80/80 as people switch to Active exp/therm/kin insted of EANMII + DC. If that happened, could you count the complaints? ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
CB LoKi
Posted - 2006.08.07 15:28:00 -
[1653 ]
FIX AMARR! Give us a drone boat with moe than 4 medium slots!Please resize your signature, oh and I love you - Jacques ♥♥Give Zealot a Drone Bay♥♥
Belial02
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.07 15:54:00 -
[1654 ]
Yeah a little extra medslot on most ships would be most useful, let us do EW with small t1 ships please. Everybody else does
Godar Marak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.07 15:58:00 -
[1655 ]
Uh...sorry if those sounds corny, but why not level armour resistace of all ships to be equal across the board? Meaning ships will have equal amount of resistance in each class now that we have eanII and dc?
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.07 16:17:00 -
[1656 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Uh...sorry if those sounds corny, but why not level armour resistace of all ships to be equal across the board? Meaning ships will have equal amount of resistance in each class now that we have eanII and dc? Thats transfering the problem, not solving it. Each 'Class' already has the same resistances for t1 ships, with exception of ships with resistance bonues such as the Prophecy etc. And much of the appeal of t2 ships is the resistances as well. Who would not want to use a vagabond against an amarr pvper? :) ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
KillerLU
VakAtioth
Posted - 2006.08.07 19:06:00 -
[1657 ]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven I just wish shield tanking was more viable in PVP but it never will be with the necessity of all those other mid-slot modules in PVP (webber, TD, scrambler, ECM, ECCM, AB, etc. etc. etc. etc.). If shield tanking was useful for PVP maybe we wouldn't have a problem...since PVP is the biggest complaint with Amarr ships... Don't know but here's a bit silly idea: balance Armor/Shield HP, so that it gets senseless for say a Raven to armor-tank. Having 10k shield but only 2k armor makes it useless to armo- tank. But I doubt that this is a good idea...
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.07 19:36:00 -
[1658 ]
Originally by: KillerLU ...But I doubt that this is a good idea... You are quite right there. On the BS lvl we would then have at least 5 which will have an OMGWTF armor tank - might as well just selfdestruct as amarr vs gallente then. The typhoon, even though it has right now slightly more shields than armor is definately an armortank from the slot layout. The tempest could be made into a shieldtank, although I doubt our minnie friends would be happy about it. The Scorp will still be betetr using ECM. Well, and the Raven would shieldtank.
Tranklukator's wife
Posted - 2006.08.07 19:50:00 -
[1659 ]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven Amarr have always been shield killers and I don't think CCP has any plans on making the Amarr effective against armor users any time soon. Has anyone considered what nerfing EANM II's would do to people who don't use them to begin with? Or how about reducing EM resists on armor against people who don't use EANM II's+DC combo? There ARE people who don't use EANM II + DC combo in pvp you know. A lot of people who don't use it actually. Armor setups = 80-90 percent of pvp setups. So CCP kicks Amarr from pvp and you think that's ok. If some people don't use EANM II now then they won't use them after the nerf. I guess that's clear. Give Amarr an option! Any Drone/missle/ecm battleship! Anything but lasers. Or explosive crystals. Or fix resists.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.07 23:04:00 -
[1660 ]
Originally by: Tranklukator's wife Give Amarr an option! Any Drone/missle/ecm battleship! Anything but lasers. Or explosive crystals. Or fix resists. I think you said in one sentence what the 56 pages of this thread sumerised so far! ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Soratah
AmarrUbiqua Seraph Aegis Militia
Posted - 2006.08.07 23:14:00 -
[1661 ]
It seems that most of the issue comes from the wasteful less cap usage per level for firing the lasers. Amarr ships according to doctrine are meant to take fire and recieve fire so I would argue that resistance bonuses to all the ships in replacement of the cap reduction bonus. Considering that this bonus only applies to Amarr ships and ONLY meant to be used for lasers why not make this a racial bonus for the Amarr as a whole. In fact adding racial bonuses for all the races would probably balance out the factions an awful lot
Judas Jones
AmarrAbraxas Ascendant
Posted - 2006.08.07 23:19:00 -
[1662 ]
Give it up, I have been flying Amarr ships now for over 2 years and in that time they have been nerfed to uselessness. With range, thermal/crystal nerf etc... The Devs simply see the Amarr ships as sansha/blood npc chainers and nothing more. Its just a pitty that I choose the race for its sexy sleek ships and lasers, what a waste, I could of just been Caldari and pushed my "I win" button and saved myself 10mil skill points in associated gun/ship skill wastage. Whats wrong with he Amarr line is they simply lack choices, there crap and dont get me started on those khanid piecies of Tech 2 ****e.
Lisento Slaven
AmarrThe Drekla Consortium New Eve Order
Posted - 2006.08.08 00:02:00 -
[1663 ]
Originally by: Tranklukator's wife Armor setups = 80-90 percent of pvp setups. So CCP kicks Amarr from pvp and you think that's ok. If some people don't use EANM II now then they won't use them after the nerf. I guess that's clear. Give Amarr an option! Any Drone/missle/ecm battleship! Anything but lasers. Or explosive crystals. Or fix resists. I didn't say I think it's ok. If you have been following this thread for a long time you'll see my opinions in previous posts. I said CCP isn't going to change *anything* about Amarr. Amarr are always going to have the highest base shield damage and extremely low base armor damage (in comparison to others) in general. Note I said base. The whole resistance thing came into discussion because of EANM II's and DC's...maybe DC's should be affected by the stacking nerf. Maybe EANM II's should be nerfed slightly as well. The fitting issues (for small turrets) are the only ones I can imagine actually being "fixed" if CCP even thinks its broken that is. I don't think there is a way to make shield tanking viable for PVP until more offensive mods are shifted out of the midslot area. Scorpions armor tank...lame...so do some Ravens... --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Weirda
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.08.08 00:28:00 -
[1664 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Uh...sorry if those sounds corny, but why not level armour resistace of all ships to be equal across the board? Meaning ships will have equal amount of resistance in each class now that we have eanII and dc? because the balance of the whole game revolves around resistances being different, and damage types of weapon systems. damage modifiers and everything else based on this as well... if you do some math (which little to no one have done in this thread - big surprise) you would realize this. because amarr are not weak and unbalanced? but then again - weirda probably have more amarr experience then most of the people posting thing like this in the thread... and what someone doesn't know, they can't be taught. they have to figure out for themself. __ WeirdaJoin QOTSA Now
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.08 00:50:00 -
[1665 ]
Weirda - which amarr ships do you OFTEN use for pvp? (for me it will be: sader/pilgrim/curse/heretic - and heretic/sader only because im 100% amarr specced - would change them to claw/sabre any day)
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.08 00:56:00 -
[1666 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 08/08/2006 00:58:01 Originally by: Weirda Originally by: Godar Marak Uh...sorry if those sounds corny, but why not level armour resistace of all ships to be equal across the board? Meaning ships will have equal amount of resistance in each class now that we have eanII and dc? because the balance of the whole game revolves around resistances being different, and damage types of weapon systems. damage modifiers and everything else based on this as well... if you do some math (which little to no one have done in this thread - big surprise) you would realize this. because amarr are not weak and unbalanced? but then again - weirda probably have more amarr experience then most of the people posting thing like this in the thread... and what someone doesn't know, they can't be taught. they have to figure out for themself. While I agree that making all resists equal is dumb, I find it curious Weirda that you would say that "If you do the math, you would see that Amarr are not weak and unbalanced". So I am asking, please, do the math to show me how Amarr are balanced. As far as I can see, and I *have * done the math, Amarr in many ways are not balanced at all. Frigates especially. I really don't see how you can count tanked resists currently only taking 4 low slots and being 80/60/60/60 where Amarr crystals limit us to EM damage in many circumstances where no other race is so limited can be balanced. If Amarr did 50% more damage then I could agree. But I can't. And I don't think you can show me any math or logical arguments that state otherwise. But I am willing to be convinced. I will keep an open mind towards the math that you claim to possess that shows conclusively that Amarr are balanced. All I ask is this; Post it. I think many of us would love to see your figures. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Wheya
AmarrBruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
Posted - 2006.08.08 01:41:00 -
[1667 ]
I assume Weirda would show you something like this (shameless link). Shield tank 3 invul II: 57.1 em, 65.68 th, 74.26 ki, 82.84 ex average: 69.97% Armor tank 3 EAN II: 79.87 em, 67.28 th, 62.25 ki, 59.73 ex average: 67.28% I also assume we would have a huge 'Minmatar' thread if modules like AB, MWD, EW, webber, scrambler would be low slot modules. This situation is even worse than the EAN II problem but nobody is using such setups because med slots offer other very valuable modules. On top of that the typical armor tanker (amarr, gallente) has more room for weapon upgrades then those who only armor tank because they use their med slots for previous mentioned modules.
Byzan Zwyth
Posted - 2006.08.08 04:26:00 -
[1668 ]
hi, well I'm new to the forum. Funny I was thinking last night if i would be better off putting projectile weapons on my Omen rather than lasers. Was interesting coming here and seeing this thread...
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.08 04:43:00 -
[1669 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 08/08/2006 04:44:14 Originally by: Wheya I assume Weirda would show you something like this (shameless link). Shield tank 3 invul II: 57.1 em, 65.68 th, 74.26 ki, 82.84 ex average: 69.97% Armor tank 3 EAN II: 79.87 em, 67.28 th, 62.25 ki, 59.73 ex average: 67.28% I also assume we would have a huge 'Minmatar' thread if modules like AB, MWD, EW, webber, scrambler would be low slot modules. This situation is even worse than the EAN II problem but nobody is using such setups because med slots offer other very valuable modules. On top of that the typical armor tanker (amarr, gallente) has more room for weapon upgrades then those who only armor tank because they use their med slots for previous mentioned modules. Average resists don't mean much when the vast majority of your Laser damage is EM. EM is really the only one you care much about. Matari can use the average since they have ammo that damages accross the entire spectrum. EMP actually does almost the same EM against shields as the highest damage Crystal (Multi). This reason, and the fact that the VAST majority of ships armor tank is why you really don't see Matari having issues with high explosive resists on shields. EMP L has 20EM/16EXPL/8KIN. "Averaging" works in thier favor. If Amarr had an 8EM/20THERM/17EXPL crystal we wouldn't be griping about EM resists either. Although the devaluing of lowslots is somewhat problematic still. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.08 06:24:00 -
[1670 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 08/08/2006 06:27:20 T2 projectile ammo does only exp/kin, though. Still, simply comparing resistances is simplyfying things. Because, even ignoring the whole midslot utility/EW issue there are more native armor than shieldtankers round. ECM being as it is does not help, but even if it is fixed soonÖ the shield/armortank numeric imbalance is still there. Unless, as said before, we make all minnie ships shieldtankers Also, *if* shield and armortanking would be equal in useage, changing base armor EM resists to 40% and base shield EM resist to 20% would be no boost to amarr at all since both changes would cancel each other out.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.08 08:11:00 -
[1671 ]
Imagine all races on the starting line. Insted of all races being pretty much on the starting line, the Caldari guy was 20 yards ahead. Nerfs means that the starting line got moved 10 yards ahead, thus other races catching up with Caldari. However, some guy forgot to tell Amarr that he is still 10 yards behind. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.08.08 08:28:00 -
[1672 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron However, some guy forgot to tell Amarr that he is still 10 yards behind. No, he was just too proud and self-important to listen to anyone else. ---
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.08 08:54:00 -
[1673 ]
Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Lord WarATron However, some guy forgot to tell Amarr that he is still 10 yards behind. No, he was just too proud and self-important to listen to anyone else. Lol, however here is a statement reflecting the reality of the situation "To be honest, imagine a battle between the Amarr Titan vs the Amarr Archon or Aeon. - If the Amarr Titan uses lasers, its not going to kill the Archon or Aeon. Both these ships can tank the Titan EM doomsday without much problems, But the Archon or Aeon could kill the Amarr Titan with drones though. If the Amarr Titan uses Projectiles - Then the Amarr titan has a chance of winning. :) " ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Lickity Split
Posted - 2006.08.08 13:14:00 -
[1674 ]
Until a Dev response on this subject, the thread must stay on the first page.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.08 14:12:00 -
[1675 ]
Originally by: Lickity Split Until a Dev response on this subject, the thread must stay on the first page. I doubt any dev will respond - they would have to read all 57 pages of this.... Full time job in itself! ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Ridjeck Thome
Suicide Valley Alliance Inc Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2006.08.08 15:43:00 -
[1676 ]
didnt Tux mention annual leave in his last blog?....nevertheless, I agree...this thread needs to stay on the front page until we get a response...
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.08 16:30:00 -
[1677 ]
Originally by: Ridjeck Thome didnt Tux mention annual leave in his last blog?....nevertheless, I agree...this thread needs to stay on the front page until we get a response... Agreed - Assuming that CCP's Forums can handle a thread this big! ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Zaethiel
Posted - 2006.08.08 17:25:00 -
[1678 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Lickity Split Until a Dev response on this subject, the thread must stay on the first page. I doubt any dev will respond - they would have to read all 57 pages of this.... Full time job in itself! Hate to be the one who has to read it all. Skipped it myself; didnt see any point in reading about it since i play with it everyday.
Spartan239
CaldariRegeneration Axiom Empire
Posted - 2006.08.08 19:08:00 -
[1679 ]
Originally by: Lickity Split Until a Dev response on this subject, the thread must stay on the first page. Tux posted a while ago that the more trolling there is in a thread the less likley it is there will be a response
Ridjeck Thome
Suicide Valley Alliance Inc Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2006.08.08 19:18:00 -
[1680 ]
Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Lickity Split Until a Dev response on this subject, the thread must stay on the first page. Tux posted a while ago that the more trolling there is in a thread the less likley it is there will be a response whilst he may have posted such (and Ive not seen any such post, but i dont doubt your comments), there are enough valid points in this thread to merit a response....the 'I can hold my breath longer then you' tone implied by a lack of response is insulting to the people who've taken time to provide feedback on thier concerns... as I said in one of my earlier posts - Ive seen enough of Dev/ Player interaction over 9 years to understand that a lack of ANY response to this thread will just lead the contributors and wider community to gradually begin losing faith in CCP and the Devs...the cornerstone of a good MMORPG is good communication... in summary.... No communciation = BAD some communcation = Good
Wulfgard
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:01:00 -
[1681 ]
Wasn't the Minmatars whine +75pages (1 or 2 yrs ago), we still have some room to go
Snipes123us
Posted - 2006.08.08 23:36:00 -
[1682 ]
Originally by: Ridjeck Thome Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Lickity Split Until a Dev response on this subject, the thread must stay on the first page. Tux posted a while ago that the more trolling there is in a thread the less likley it is there will be a response whilst he may have posted such (and Ive not seen any such post, but i dont doubt your comments), there are enough valid points in this thread to merit a response....the 'I can hold my breath longer then you' tone implied by a lack of response is insulting to the people who've taken time to provide feedback on thier concerns... as I said in one of my earlier posts - Ive seen enough of Dev/ Player interaction over 9 years to understand that a lack of ANY response to this thread will just lead the contributors and wider community to gradually begin losing faith in CCP and the Devs...the cornerstone of a good MMORPG is good communication... in summary.... No communciation = BAD some communcation = Good MMO's seem to hinge on how well the game designers interact with the games community.
Spartan239
CaldariRegeneration Axiom Empire
Posted - 2006.08.09 00:28:00 -
[1683 ]
Originally by: Ridjeck Thome Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Lickity Split Until a Dev response on this subject, the thread must stay on the first page. Tux posted a while ago that the more trolling there is in a thread the less likley it is there will be a response whilst he may have posted such (and Ive not seen any such post, but i dont doubt your comments), there are enough valid points in this thread to merit a response....the 'I can hold my breath longer then you' tone implied by a lack of response is insulting to the people who've taken time to provide feedback on thier concerns... as I said in one of my earlier posts - Ive seen enough of Dev/ Player interaction over 9 years to understand that a lack of ANY response to this thread will just lead the contributors and wider community to gradually begin losing faith in CCP and the Devs...the cornerstone of a good MMORPG is good communication... in summary.... No communciation = BAD some communcation = Good This thread does have some good ideas, but a large ammount of it is trolling, biased comments and bad ideas, a new thread putting all the good ideas (most of them Nyxus's imo) so that you dont have to sift thought page after page of trolling and crap to find something in the intrest of balance, not the interest of making ammar the fotm again
Arditi
Posted - 2006.08.09 00:49:00 -
[1684 ]
Amarr should do Explosive damage because when you put a potatoe in the microwave it blows up, hence when shooting laser beams at a ship it should blow up.
Auryn Darkblade
Posted - 2006.08.09 00:56:00 -
[1685 ]
It seems to me that the issue is damage types - all the other racial ships can do ANY damage type with one of their racial weapons: Caldari - missles do any damage type Galente - Drones do any damage type Minmater - Projectiles can do any damage type Amarr - screwed with only EM / THERMAL To be honest though, both Caldari and Galente also have Hybrid wich only does KIN / THERMAL
XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.08.09 02:32:00 -
[1686 ]
DEATH TO AMARR.... DEATH TO AMARR... DEATH TO AMARR!!! i say we all go minmitar to solve this nhuge issue of his ship be better than my cardboard box... which also means... u cant predict what that minmitar fellow is going to be packing cus they are so versitile you could crysignature to large, and advertising in a sig are not allowed - Acario Vito
Dano Sarum
Giants in the Playground Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2006.08.09 07:38:00 -
[1687 ]
I'm very very dissapointed that not a single dev has bothered to respond to this. Frankly its rather annoying that everyones either tip-toeing around the subject or doesnt care if 1600+ posts are worth responding to. Eves got a small playerbase in the grand scheme of things, leaving things like this unanswered isnt a smart move. ========== -Dano Sarum GitP CEO & FounderGitP Recruitment Thread
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.09 09:39:00 -
[1688 ]
Originally by: Wulfgard Wasn't the Minmatars whine +75pages (1 or 2 yrs ago), we still have some room to go Ah, but you have to remember racial styles - Minmatar excel at alpha-whinage, long whines but low rate of posting, whereas Amarr should excel at whinage over time. The problem is also one of dev resistances to Amarr whinage. It used to be more reasonable, but ever since standard fit for a dev became 2 enhanced adaptive no-no's and a corporate damage control the average resistance to Amarr whinage has become unacceptably high...
Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.09 10:09:00 -
[1689 ]
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade It seems to me that the issue is damage types - all the other racial ships can do ANY damage type with one of their racial weapons: Caldari - missles do any damage type Galente - Drones do any damage type Minmater - Projectiles can do any damage type Amarr - screwed with only EM / THERMAL To be honest though, both Caldari and Galente also have Hybrid wich only does KIN / THERMAL it's not that plain. drone users use mostly thermal drones, as they have best damage. also amarr ships can use drones (except some cruisers and frigs) so they can also do any damage type. caldari damage bonuses are mostly kinetic (with exception of raven). projectiles can do any damage type but with not equal damage output and range. ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Borasao
Posted - 2006.08.09 14:04:00 -
[1690 ]
Originally by: Arditi Amarr should do Explosive damage because when you put a potatoe in the microwave it blows up, hence when shooting laser beams at a ship it should blow up. Is that you, Dan?
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.08.09 15:08:00 -
[1691 ]
imo we should start by switching around the em/thermal ratio and go from there, who knows maybe it will switch a hell of a lot and we'd still be stronger vs shields then vs armor
CB Cyrix
GeoTech
Posted - 2006.08.09 15:31:00 -
[1692 ]
Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Arditi Amarr should do Explosive damage because when you put a potatoe in the microwave it blows up, hence when shooting laser beams at a ship it should blow up. Damn in all these pages i thought i would never find a decent reason for explosive crystals...i was so wrong Prob the most smartest thing hes ever said, but so true and funny! Bring on EXP crystals!-Taking his YARR Pills Since 2003-
Mr Peanut
The New Empire R i s e
Posted - 2006.08.09 15:48:00 -
[1693 ]
TBH I don't think that we should try to justify EVE damage types with real-life physics. It just doesn't add up. Heat is just kinetic energy on a molecular level. The kind of explosive/kinetic damage that EVE references is unified kinetic energy on a much, much larger scale. So wtf is kinetic damage? The only valid explanation that I can come up with is that explosive damage is a mix of kinetic damage and thermal damage (caused by the heat released by the ammo's explosion). Basically, EVE damage-type physics are borked so don't try to justify explosive crystals with them. IMO we get explosive crystals because they make us better and different and that's it.
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.08.09 15:53:00 -
[1694 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 09/08/2006 15:53:53 Ok i dislike ammar not using EM as primary damage (its just your damage (sorry)). But instead of making Explosive crystals, why not just add a bit of explosive to ALL (ALL part is important) crystaltypes. EM 50% Therm 25% Explosive 25% or EM 40% Therm 30% Explosive 30% idea? _________________________________________________
Mr Peanut
The New Empire R i s e
Posted - 2006.08.09 15:59:00 -
[1695 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 09/08/2006 15:53:53 Ok i dislike ammar not using EM as primary damage (its just your damage (sorry)). But instead of making Explosive crystals, why not just add a bit of explosive to ALL (ALL part is important) crystaltypes. EM 50% Therm 25% Explosive 25% or EM 40% Therm 30% Explosive 30% idea? I like it. What I like even more if for EM not to be screwed, though. This sounds like an easier fix than boosting EM TBH.
Stephar
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.08.09 16:07:00 -
[1696 ]
Edited by: Stephar on 09/08/2006 16:09:58 Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 09/08/2006 15:53:53 Ok i dislike ammar not using EM as primary damage (its just your damage (sorry)). But instead of making Explosive crystals, why not just add a bit of explosive to ALL (ALL part is important) crystaltypes. EM 50% Therm 25% Explosive 25% or EM 40% Therm 30% Explosive 30% idea? This would be nice. Could go something like: Radio = 100% EM Standard = 60% EM, 20% thermal, 20% explosive Multifrequency = 33% EM, 33% thermal, 33% explosive Most importantly, as Mr. Peanut noted, EVE physics are a lot different than real-world physics. So arguing that it doesn't make sense, well... doesn't make sense. EDIT: Noticed that you said "all" crystals... I suppose that would work. So the same ratio with radio (like 50/25/25), increasing the overall damage but maintaining the same ratio as you approach multifrequency range? No problem with that either.
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.09 16:11:00 -
[1697 ]
Originally by: Stephar Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 09/08/2006 15:53:53 Ok i dislike ammar not using EM as primary damage (its just your damage (sorry)). But instead of making Explosive crystals, why not just add a bit of explosive to ALL (ALL part is important) crystaltypes. EM 50% Therm 25% Explosive 25% or EM 40% Therm 30% Explosive 30% idea? This would be nice. Could go something like: Radio = 100% EM Standard = 60% EM, 20% thermal, 20% explosive Multifrequency = 33% EM, 33% thermal, 33% explosive Most importantly, as Mr. Peanut noted, EVE physics are a lot different than real-world physics. So arguing that it doesn't make sense, well... doesn't make sense. Indeed could work. I do wonder if the Devs AND the forum Mods are against us though - why has such a HUGE thread not been sticky? Why do the developers not even let us know that they are reading it and thinking about it? Where are you CCP? Will 1,000 pages of posts get your attention?
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.08.09 16:28:00 -
[1698 ]
I think the fact there is no dev reply should give you all a clue. Quality > Quantity. Tuz would need to hire a forum reader to keep up with this thread or he'd get no work done. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Angelic Resolution
The Arcanum
Posted - 2006.08.09 16:29:00 -
[1699 ]
Looking at a few facts, Amarr are 'unbalanced' because: The T1 weapons do **** all damage and take to much cap compared to other races. T2 weapons require an extra 4 to 5 dats (Minimum) to get to as you have to train Beam and Pulse spec to 4 Apoc has a great tank but **** overall damage when you have low skills Apoc does better with 1400mm's on it, now that's saying something considering Minmattar are our slaves! Most people see the reason to go amarr are to mine in the geddon/apoc. Come on. In a 1 vs 1 fight, we're pretty much farked (Most of the time anyway). Now I've survived 3 vs 1 fights, geddon vs cruisers. Then I get into an apoc, another 3 vs one, 2 BC's and 1 cruiser.. got my arse kicked. I can out tank and nos them but when it comes to dmg'ing em, not gonna happen in time to keep my reppers going and my guns firing.
Yodohime Kibagami
AmarrMordu's Elite
Posted - 2006.08.09 17:53:00 -
[1700 ]
Edited by: Yodohime Kibagami on 09/08/2006 17:54:12 Rather this than a regular feed of random rabble and complaints of amarr and some good posts hidden to the masses of small whinging topics.
Dalphi Zed
Posted - 2006.08.09 18:18:00 -
[1701 ]
amarr is fubar, fix it
Lickity Split
Posted - 2006.08.09 20:03:00 -
[1702 ]
back to the first page till devs respond.
Dristra
Posted - 2006.08.09 20:04:00 -
[1703 ]
Umm, what about a reduced cap usage low-slot item! and termal only lasers, "inferno lenses"
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.10 03:03:00 -
[1704 ]
why does this move off the first page? why is it not a sticky? i am going to keep asking until a mod or dev responds. The mods are even hiding now!
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
Posted - 2006.08.10 05:31:00 -
[1705 ]
Originally by: Lucre Originally by: Wulfgard Wasn't the Minmatars whine +75pages (1 or 2 yrs ago), we still have some room to go Ah, but you have to remember racial styles - Minmatar excel at alpha-whinage, long whines but low rate of posting, whereas Amarr should excel at whinage over time. The problem is also one of dev resistances to Amarr whinage. It used to be more reasonable, but ever since standard fit for a dev became 2 enhanced adaptive no-no's and a corporate damage control the average resistance to Amarr whinage has become unacceptably high...
Snipes123us
Posted - 2006.08.10 05:37:00 -
[1706 ]
How about reduce the damage on all crystals by 50% and make them all 1 type of damage. Then allow Lasers to load 2 different crystals. could choose damage types and even mix them per shot. only problem because optimal range multiplier. and the mods such as tracking on tech 2 crystals stacking.
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.10 05:51:00 -
[1707 ]
Originally by: Madcat Adams Originally by: Lucre Originally by: Wulfgard Wasn't the Minmatars whine +75pages (1 or 2 yrs ago), we still have some room to go Ah, but you have to remember racial styles - Minmatar excel at alpha-whinage, long whines but low rate of posting, whereas Amarr should excel at whinage over time. The problem is also one of dev resistances to Amarr whinage. It used to be more reasonable, but ever since standard fit for a dev became 2 enhanced adaptive no-no's and a corporate damage control the average resistance to Amarr whinage has become unacceptably high... rofl
Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.10 06:15:00 -
[1708 ]
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 10/08/2006 06:18:40 Originally by: Mr Peanut TBH I don't think that we should try to justify EVE damage types with real-life physics. It just doesn't add up. Heat is just kinetic energy on a molecular level. The kind of explosive/kinetic damage that EVE references is unified kinetic energy on a much, much larger scale. So wtf is kinetic damage? The only valid explanation that I can come up with is that explosive damage is a mix of kinetic damage and thermal damage (caused by the heat released by the ammo's explosion). Basically, EVE damage-type physics are borked so don't try to justify explosive crystals with them. IMO we get explosive crystals because they make us better and different and that's it. everything is kinetic damage :-) Maybe this can help: The damage types in eve are about what the armor/shield can sustain when faced with different application of kinetic damage. explosive - expanding omnidirectional kinetic damage. unfocused kinetic applied in different vectors along a larger surface of shield/armor kinetic - directional and focused kinetic damage, basicaly a nail hammered through shield/armor thermal - simple ability of the shield/armor to absorb and sustain heat (as you said, kinetic energy on molecular level) EM - this is a tricky one,but I'd say general EM spectrum radiation (including all we know from beta to gamma rays and also the light frequency ranges). this means how your armor/shield is resistant to this kind of radiation of course straight kinetic damage also produces heat in the material, but focused kinetic damage applied to a small surface area will be magnitudes higher than the heat this interaction will produce. so actualy the damage types can be somewhat justified by RL physics. EDIT: as to crystal damage. The natural enemy (Minmatar) uses varied damage types ammo, so we could apply same to crystals with various mixes of em, thermal, kinetic and explosive to complement. like radio will do straight em, multifreq will do em, therm, kin, also some em,exp crystal, or therm, em (changed order) crystal. so Amarr face the same problems like Minmatar to change damage output and range compared to damage types. However this could in some cases gimp them, as lasers have almost non-existent falloff. ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.08.10 07:04:00 -
[1709 ]
prolly 45 EM 35 thermal 20 explosive would be nice, but i think these percentages should be standard, so no 100% EM on radio crystals crap Also please make the crystals 100 shots or something cuz flying around with 40mil of ammo is a bit retarded if you're in a fleet ship, maybe that's just me tbh if you do 45% EM 35% thermal 20% explosive amarr will be back in business
Kuolematon
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.08.10 10:21:00 -
[1710 ]
Soon 60 pages and no dev has dared to answer us anything. They must hate us poor amarr-using people so much Unnerf Amarr! "Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must. "
Sonorra Baki
Posted - 2006.08.10 11:28:00 -
[1711 ]
Originally by: Snipes123us How about reduce the damage on all crystals by 50% and make them all 1 type of damage. Then allow Lasers to load 2 different crystals. could choose damage types and even mix them per shot. only problem because optimal range multiplier. and the mods such as tracking on tech 2 crystals stacking. The idea itself is not bad. But then we'd have to spend even more on crystals in cargo. Other than that, We NEED a change to T2 crystals max. shots, and production reqs. Right now its like PVP'ing with 15K zyd in cargo FFS Less shots and less reqs to decrease cost. Atm prices are insane, and i've only tried to break a few crystals ever. I die before they do. This may not be work safe -Capsicum
Commander Thrawn
Fluffy rabbit killer's inc
Posted - 2006.08.10 11:39:00 -
[1712 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 09/08/2006 15:53:53 Ok i dislike ammar not using EM as primary damage (its just your damage (sorry)). But instead of making Explosive crystals, why not just add a bit of explosive to ALL (ALL part is important) crystaltypes. EM 50% Therm 25% Explosive 25% or EM 40% Therm 30% Explosive 30% idea? not a bad idea id say 40%em 35%thermal 25%exploisve that would be nice
XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.08.10 11:42:00 -
[1713 ]
not disagreeing with anyone but if u give em exp damage then they become minmitar without the hastle of training skills, for missiles, drones, and guns, and sheild. becasue amarr doesnt have a 2ndary weapon on all their ships (the majoratory have a drone bay of some sort) their tank is insainly powerful.signature to large, and advertising in a sig are not allowed - Acario Vito
Sandra Tseng
THE MISPHIT'S
Posted - 2006.08.10 11:42:00 -
[1714 ]
As far as I know, from reading info on the different missile types, EvE damage types goes something like this: EM: Electromagnetic Damage Kinetic: Pure kinetic force Thermal: Plasma damage Explosive: Nuclear damage And a Laser Beamw would never cause a nuclear explosion now would it? Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr1st Praetorian Guard
Posted - 2006.08.10 12:06:00 -
[1715 ]
Amarr is about staying, not killing. An Apoc is geared for staying in a battle, killing the enemy over time. Now, whats wrong with that? And what is wrong with having spice in a game. With this proposed change, we are gonna look more like the Minmatarr and then Gallente will start to whine. Then they will get the same damage type as Amarr and Minmatarr. That will ruin the entire point of flying one race over the other. Its sad that people want to ruin a good game with "balance". Short-sighted balance to. Not saying Amarr couldn't use a boost, or atleast tanking, but for the love of god, lets keep the basics.
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.10 12:23:00 -
[1716 ]
Well, while the idea of explosive damage on the crystals seems a bit off, it is actually very sensible. Lasers have always been the best weapon against shields and the worst against armor. The EANMII issue only emphasizes this by a good margin. Adding a third damage type or switching the ratio of EM/therm damage for short range crystals at least, would somewhat compensate for the 50% damage loss on EM damage against armor vs any half-way veteran player. ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr1st Praetorian Guard
Posted - 2006.08.10 12:39:00 -
[1717 ]
What you are saying, Andreask14, is not the need for explosive damage, but for lasers to do more or the armor tank to be less effective agenst laser. I don't mind that, just don't give Amarr explosive damage. Amarr is a conquering race, meant to invade and stay. Yes, giving a lot of damage is one way to stay, but will require you to know where your enemy is. Beeing able to stay long enough for reinforcements to arrive, is just as good. In my oppinion.
CB Cyrix
GeoTech
Posted - 2006.08.10 13:15:00 -
[1718 ]
Lasers should be EM and EXP and thats it. Currently thermal is the most common damage type, so in turn its the most tanked generally. EM resists are always URBER high on most ships, so its just dumb. Thats why we are gimped, on paper they look good DPS, but against true foes you have more change to hurt them with bumping. The only real fix's are these: 1. Switch Em and Thr amounts round, Thr now primary 2. Switch the Em for Exp (my fave) 3. Switch Thr for Exp (still nice) 4. Make range ammo use EM, and close range is only THR and EXP.-Taking his YARR Pills Since 2003-
Sandra Tseng
THE MISPHIT'S
Posted - 2006.08.10 13:20:00 -
[1719 ]
Originally by: CB Cyrix Lasers should be EM and EXP and thats it. Currently thermal is the most common damage type, so in turn its the most tanked generally. EM resists are always URBER high on most ships, so its just dumb. Thats why we are gimped, on paper they look good DPS, but against true foes you have more change to hurt them with bumping. The only real fix's are these: 1. Switch Em and Thr amounts round, Thr now primary 2. Switch the Em for Exp (my fave) 3. Switch Thr for Exp (still nice) 4. Make range ammo use EM, and close range is only THR and EXP. Oh! and while you are at it - fix hybrids so they do exlosive damage too! Why? Because I use hybrids and I feel that they are "gimped" funny how all the four races has their own group of people that think that they are so gawd damn victimized Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
Stephar
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.08.10 13:53:00 -
[1720 ]
Originally by: Sandra Tseng Uhm - why? I can just jump into my Apoc, Armageddon, Maller or any other of the Amarr ships I also fly if I want to do EM damage. Makes those Shields whistle ;] Then you can dock and switch to your Gallente ship when you need to make that armor whistle. Or you could just save yourself the trouble and start in the Gallente ship, since thermal is effective versus shields.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.10 14:18:00 -
[1721 ]
Originally by: Sandra Tseng Uhm - why? I can just jump into my Apoc, Armageddon, Maller or any other of the Amarr ships I also fly if I want to do EM damage. Makes those Shields whistle ;] You mean "Makes THAT shield whistle". That one of the raven. A scorp will rather jam than tank you and you'll make the armor on the typoon, tempest, mega, domi and of cource other armas & apocs lukewarm. Please - where are those shieldtanking ships you're using your Apoc, Armageddon and Maller for?
Krulla
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.08.10 14:42:00 -
[1722 ]
The way I see it, the Amarr ships or their weapons themselves aren't the problem, the problem is EANMIIs. Before those were standard gear, Amarrians were fine; they were one of the most balanced races, their ships were popular, and generally, the forums were amarr-whine free. However, as already mentioned, after the change to EANMIIs, Amarr ship usage has plummeted, and their effective DPS has been lowered dramatically... prior to EANMIIs, most PvP armour tanking fits fit three hardeners, exp, kin and therm, giving them 55-65ish% resistances accross the board; for the Amarrians, this was fine, as this meant that EM was still at 60%, and thermal was around 60% too; they still did about as good damage as everyone else on tanked armour. However, the EANMII has effectively replaced hardeners on PvP fits; this means that people who really just wanted to raise their kinetic and explosive resistances also raise their thermal and EM resistances, and since those were already high, they get boosted to silly levels. Thus, I propose that the Amarr ships themselves are left alone, as they are basically fine; it is the EANMIIs that need a nerf. I suggest either lowering or completely removing their EM resistance boost, or making two seperate passive armour resistance modules, one for Exp and Kin, and one for EM and Thermal (Or possibly one for kin and EM, and one for thermal and exp?). Amarr ships and weapons are fine, EANMII are not.
Kovacs Caprios
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.10 14:43:00 -
[1723 ]
wow.... 59 pages.... Has a dev responded yet? Keep pushing for 100 pages!!
Krulla
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.08.10 14:50:00 -
[1724 ]
Woo, 4 QOTSA responses in a row. \o/
Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.10 15:02:00 -
[1725 ]
Originally by: Krulla The way I see it, the Amarr ships or their weapons themselves aren't the problem, the problem is EANMIIs. Before those were standard gear, Amarrians were fine; they were one of the most balanced races, their ships were popular, and generally, the forums were amarr-whine free. However, as already mentioned, after the change to EANMIIs, Amarr ship usage has plummeted, and their effective DPS has been lowered dramatically... prior to EANMIIs, most PvP armour tanking fits fit three hardeners, exp, kin and therm, giving them 55-65ish% resistances accross the board; for the Amarrians, this was fine, as this meant that EM was still at 60%, and thermal was around 60% too; they still did about as good damage as everyone else on tanked armour. However, the EANMII has effectively replaced hardeners on PvP fits; this means that people who really just wanted to raise their kinetic and explosive resistances also raise their thermal and EM resistances, and since those were already high, they get boosted to silly levels. Thus, I propose that the Amarr ships themselves are left alone, as they are basically fine; it is the EANMIIs that need a nerf. I suggest either lowering or completely removing their EM resistance boost, or making two seperate passive armour resistance modules, one for Exp and Kin, and one for EM and Thermal (Or possibly one for kin and EM, and one for thermal and exp?). Amarr ships and weapons are fine, EANMII are not. remove armor EM compensation and shield EXP compensation skills, problem solved (in a part). ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.10 15:07:00 -
[1726 ]
Originally by: Sandra Tseng Uhm - why? I can just jump into my Apoc, Armageddon, Maller or any other of the Amarr ships I also fly if I want to do EM damage. Makes those Shields whistle ;] Lets just say you somehow find someone who shield tanks in pvp. You fire away.... Oh Dear, it appears that PvP Shield tankers gets their EM resist 70-75%+. Oh well, it was the thought that counted.... ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.08.10 15:09:00 -
[1727 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 10/08/2006 15:09:49 Originally by: CB Cyrix Lasers should be EM and EXP and thats it. Currently thermal is the most common damage type, so in turn its the most tanked generally. EM resists are always URBER high on most ships, so its just dumb. Thats why we are gimped, on paper they look good DPS, but against true foes you have more change to hurt them with bumping. The only real fix's are these: 1. Switch Em and Thr amounts round, Thr now primary 2. Switch the Em for Exp (my fave) 3. Switch Thr for Exp (still nice) 4. Make range ammo use EM, and close range is only THR and EXP. You do EM (period) no ******* around with that, my idea was adding a certain % of explosive, not ******* up everything eve is build on. You are too biased and (im very sorry) dont have the slightest clue about gamebalance. 1. You want to be gallente and have thermal as primary (will never happen) 2. Switching em for explosive means (Eplo/therm) that caldari will SOLO-pwn 3-4 ammarian ships of the same size. 3. EMP charge is SO DAMN powerfull, thats why mini dont have great dps. by changing crystals to EM/EXPLO combined with your dps and range, there will be no counter to ammar anymore (besides EW) Your comment was: Still nice.. c'mon this is how you ruin balance in every single way possible. 4. So there is no way to tank ammar properly, they just swap crystals and do mad dps.. Dont you get it: This will turn ammar in the noobrace it once was: F1-F7 shield gone, reload F1-F7 armor gone and wait for bang. No need to get in range, just sensorboost your ship and instapwn all you see. I saddens me that there are people in eve with such small grasp of balance... I know that ammar dont use drones as real damage. The most important part is: how is damage build up on other ships? Megathron has Kin/Therm and 5X beserk 2, by adding a bit of explosive so it matches about that type of damage it will make ammar happy monkies again. What you are proposing is the same as: HE! lets keep Rage torps in the game and remove signature penalty.. your: mjolnir rage torpedo hits crow doing 900 damage... Did i mention that your idea would **** up all balance? _________________________________________________
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.10 15:09:00 -
[1728 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 10/08/2006 15:11:45 Originally by: Hugh Ruka remove armor EM compensation and shield EXP compensation skills, problem solved (in a part). Nope, the reverse is true. Make compensation skills effect Active hardners so insted of 55%, you get 70%. Thus people would go back to active hardning and then everyone would get as gimped a damage output as amarr :) ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
CB Cyrix
GeoTech
Posted - 2006.08.10 15:27:00 -
[1729 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 10/08/2006 15:09:49 Originally by: CB Cyrix Lasers should be EM and EXP and thats it. Currently thermal is the most common damage type, so in turn its the most tanked generally. EM resists are always URBER high on most ships, so its just dumb. Thats why we are gimped, on paper they look good DPS, but against true foes you have more change to hurt them with bumping. The only real fix's are these: 1. Switch Em and Thr amounts round, Thr now primary 2. Switch the Em for Exp (my fave) 3. Switch Thr for Exp (still nice) 4. Make range ammo use EM, and close range is only THR and EXP. You do EM (period) no ******* around with that, my idea was adding a certain % of explosive, not ******* up everything eve is build on. You are too biased and (im very sorry) dont have the slightest clue about gamebalance. 1. You want to be gallente and have thermal as primary (will never happen) 2. Switching em for explosive means (Eplo/therm) that caldari will SOLO-pwn 3-4 ammarian ships of the same size. 3. EMP charge is SO DAMN powerfull, thats why mini dont have great dps. by changing crystals to EM/EXPLO combined with your dps and range, there will be no counter to ammar anymore (besides EW) Your comment was: Still nice.. c'mon this is how you ruin balance in every single way possible. 4. So there is no way to tank ammar properly, they just swap crystals and do mad dps.. Dont you get it: This will turn ammar in the noobrace it once was: F1-F7 shield gone, reload F1-F7 armor gone and wait for bang. No need to get in range, just sensorboost your ship and instapwn all you see. I saddens me that there are people in eve with such small grasp of balance... I know that ammar dont use drones as real damage. The most important part is: how is damage build up on other ships? Megathron has Kin/Therm and 5X beserk 2, by adding a bit of explosive so it matches about that type of damage it will make ammar happy monkies again. What you are proposing is the same as: HE! lets keep Rage torps in the game and remove signature penalty.. your: mjolnir rage torpedo hits crow doing 900 damage... Did i mention that your idea would **** up all balance? Wow alot of anger there, you need somone to shoot, 5mil/hour and you can shoot all you want But seriously, I only posted that to shake things up abit, I wasnt really serious, just to highlight theres more options... It was a cry for attention, give me isk! lol jk-Taking his YARR Pills Since 2003-
Shadowsword
GallenteCOLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2006.08.10 15:28:00 -
[1730 ]
Forget EANMs, the problem is deeper and older than that. The problem is that CCP gave ships a base 60/70% resist against the primary damage source of the one race that is least able to vary it's damage type. That is a fundamental design problem that can't be solved by nerfing one module, it needs a general change. Resolution: increase all base EM shield resists to 20% and decrease all Em armor resists to a base 40% (50% for minmatar ships)... ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
CB Cyrix
GeoTech
Posted - 2006.08.10 15:38:00 -
[1731 ]
Why cant we do this? EM/THR 90/10 = Radio 50/50 = Standard 10/90 = Multifreq OR this: EM/EXP/THR 90/5/5 = Radio 50/25/25 = Standard 33/33/33 = MF OR this: EM/EXP 80/20 = Radio 70/30 = Standard 40/60 = Multifreq-Taking his YARR Pills Since 2003-
Ridjeck Thome
Suicide Valley Alliance Inc Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2006.08.10 15:47:00 -
[1732 ]
my concern with the 'more thermal with Multi crystals' idea is that whilst it would solve our problem at shortrange (or at least the EAN problem), it wouldnt be a solution across the entire range of our guns...wouldnt we actually become MORE restricted to short range if only multis had the 'rebalancing' of damage?
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.08.10 15:57:00 -
[1733 ]
dmnt (posted much more than has shown up like 5-6 posts are not on forum now *kicks puter and crappy isp*) to make this clear, amarr were not fine before EANMII's. the problem is most amarrians that have played for a long time are used to the cycle, where one race is god for a short period of time and then another race takes over.... somehow that cycle got stuck on caldari about 1-1.5 yrs ago and the cycle stopped, amarr have been waiting for their turn to be good again and it hasnt come this is the reason i beleive most ppl werent whinning before this. the EANMII's just made our already behind other races problems more prevalent, so yeah we got piissseed off that the devs have neglected us for so long. and in one of my posts long ago, i was addressing the hidden dmg lasers supposedly have, we have comparable dmg to rails vs beam only with short range ammo, if it gets long range ammo we are utter crap, and dont even try to compare blasters to anything they have 30-40% more dmg than anything else in game. amarr were over nerfed w/ the laser changes, mainly pulse rework. We have suffered since then, but only recently are we left extremly far behind. amarr have many short comings, mainly lack of versitality, this was long ago compensated for with lots of damage (no stacking penalty back then was the worst imo not the actual lasers) when lasers were nerfed we were put along side all the other races in dps, while we were more balanced back when we did more dmg imo. the lack of mid slots always has been a major downfall but our advantages made up for it. The crystals should be like they used to be, the change to dmg done by crystals was worse than gimping the dmg x on teh lasers made our long range ammo useless. For those that werent in the game back then, lasers all at the same time were gimped on fittings pg and cpu changed for the worse, the actual damage modifier decreased, the crystals had their EM dmg magnified and some dmg was toned down alltogether, (this is universal among all turret users but hurt us quite badly imo) and got tracking introduced into game all relativly close to the same time, also the stacking penalty. Now i agree with many of the changes, but at the time there were many many many many people whining about amarr becouse they got wtf ganked by amarr (mostly geddons w/ 4-6 heat sinks) this was a tremendous amount of dmg and was imo just wrong but the counter that amarr got for the almost exploiter pirate ppl was wrong, amarr got hit from all sides and was super overnerfed, if we get left untouched while other races continue to gain more dps and other benefits while we are already subpar, i know lots of people will be leaving the game rather than train a new race. (ALSO alot of beta players have multiple accnts 3-4 is the average for alot of hardcore beta ppl i know) weve delt w/ this crap for 1/3 - 1/2 of the time the game has been out. i have 13 M skill points in lasers and there is no way im gonna just drop that and move over to missles cause they are god atm (atm being laser yr or more even after the missle rework they are better then most turrets), id rather leave the game, but w/ over 3 yrs invested w/ multiple accnts it would sadden me to leave the best (not perfect) mmo out atm, but sometimes too much is just too much. (pls dont take this as a omg threaten ccp post, im just telling some observations ive seen)
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.10 15:58:00 -
[1734 ]
Originally by: Shadowsword Forget EANMs, the problem is deeper and older than that. The problem is that CCP gave ships a base 60/70% resist against the primary damage source of the one race that is least able to vary it's damage type. That is a fundamental design problem that can't be solved by nerfing one module, it needs a general change. Resolution: increase all base EM shield resists to 20% and decrease all Em armor resists to a base 40% (50% for minmatar ships)... Yes, that is IMO the real problem (and probably the best solution), too. Although it should be added that we have considerably more armortankers than shieldtankers ingame. If there would be at least a 50:50 distribution the overspecialisation of lasers (good vs shields, bad vs armor) wouldn't be that bad. Giving shields 20% EM and armor 40% would still maintain the specific flavour of lasers (worst vs armor, best vs shields), would pretty much solve the EAN2 problems (EM reistance would then still a bit higher than before with 70%, but that's still 50% more EM damage getting through than now) and also give lasers a boost where they lack right now (frig combat, most frigs use an armortank, but not much of harderners, meaning lasers have with base resists a cosiderably disadvantage there).
Krulla
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:09:00 -
[1735 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Shadowsword Forget EANMs, the problem is deeper and older than that. The problem is that CCP gave ships a base 60/70% resist against the primary damage source of the one race that is least able to vary it's damage type. That is a fundamental design problem that can't be solved by nerfing one module, it needs a general change. Resolution: increase all base EM shield resists to 20% and decrease all Em armor resists to a base 40% (50% for minmatar ships)... Yes, that is IMO the real problem (and probably the best solution), too. Although it should be added that we have considerably more armortankers than shieldtankers ingame. If there would be at least a 50:50 distribution the overspecialisation of lasers (good vs shields, bad vs armor) wouldn't be that bad. Giving shields 20% EM and armor 40% would still maintain the specific flavour of lasers (worst vs armor, best vs shields), would pretty much solve the EAN2 problems (EM reistance would then still a bit higher than before with 70%, but that's still 50% more EM damage getting through than now) and also give lasers a boost where they lack right now (frig combat, most frigs use an armortank, but not much of harderners, meaning lasers have with base resists a cosiderably disadvantage there). The problem is NOT the armour EM resistance. It has been that way since early early beta, and Amarr have been fine (in fact they were the I-win race for a long, long time), up to the point that EANMII were made useful. Prior to EANM, EM was usually about as high on a armour tanked BS as the other resistances, due to the fact that people didn't fit EM hardeners, precicely due to the high base resistance. In fact, I daresay that if they reduced armour EM resistance to 40%, it would actually make Amarr ships less powerful, as people would start fitting EM hardeners on their PvP ships (assuming they nerf EANMIIs) - resulting in a higher EM resistance than before.
Zaethiel
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:19:00 -
[1736 ]
Edited by: Zaethiel on 10/08/2006 16:20:00 If EANM (Energized adaptive nano membranes) were the problem with amarr then why are amarr lasers so bad at ratting just about everything? I rat Sansha in my Apoc with tech 2 Pulse the big ones and the highest hit i get on their armor tanking is around 400???? THEY are Weak vs EM and THermal but yet i normal hit around 100 and excellent for up to 300. (and i have a Tech 2 Heat Sink equiped). EANM's definitely are the problem. The problem lies in the low base armor damage and high % of EM damage. Also Apocs and Geddons both have difficulty ratting Angels who are SHIELD tankers bc angels are weak vs Explosive. Here: Angel Seraphim: Shield: 5,500hp Resistances: EM: 79%, Expl: 49%, Kin: 59%, Therm: 69% Armour: 4,750hp Resistances: EM: 79%, Expl: 49%, Kin: 59%, Therm: 69% Sansha's Tyrant: Shield: 4,250hp Resistances: EM: 49%, Expl: 79%, Kin: 69%, Therm: 59% Armour: 6,750hp Resistances: EM: 49%, Expl: 79%, Kin: 69%, Therm: 59%
Krulla
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:22:00 -
[1737 ]
Edited by: Krulla on 10/08/2006 16:24:10 You may notice that the Seraphim you posted has the same resistance to exp and kin, as your Tyrant has to EM and Thermal. Amarr ships are awesome for ratting Sansha's nation. Yes, they are armour tankers, but their lowest armour resistances are EM and thermal. And what the hell is bad about a 400 damage hit? If you are having trouble ratting Sansha's, the easiest NPCs in the game, using the ships best suited for them, it's you who suck, not the Amarr ships you fly. Angels are shield tankers, yes, but explosive is by far the best damage type to use against them. I rat angels and use explosive torpedoes and fusion ammo. Think before you open your mouth please. NPC damage resistances have nothing to do with player damage resistances.
Shadowsword
GallenteCOLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:23:00 -
[1738 ]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 10/08/2006 16:24:08 Originally by: Krulla The problem is NOT the armour EM resistance. It has been that way since early early beta, and Amarr have been fine (in fact they were the I-win race for a long, long time), up to the point that EANMII were made useful. Prior to EANM, EM was usually about as high on a armour tanked BS as the other resistances, due to the fact that people didn't fit EM hardeners, precicely due to the high base resistance. In fact, I daresay that if they reduced armour EM resistance to 40%, it would actually make Amarr ships less powerful, as people would start fitting EM hardeners on their PvP ships (assuming they nerf EANMIIs) - resulting in a higher EM resistance than before. Amarr was the I-Win race because of the stacking penalty. it stopped being it long before adaptative nanos were made usefulls... If after 2 EANM pilots want to devote more slots for armor hardnening, they'll put active hardeners to cover first the explosive resist, then kinetic (second lowest resist), then the thermal one (most common damage type). They'll put an EM active hardener only if they want to devote 6 slots to hardening. Do you know many pvp ships that tend to use that many slots for that purpose? ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Krulla
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:27:00 -
[1739 ]
Originally by: Shadowsword Do you know many pvp ships that tend to use that many slots for that purpose? Hardly any. Prior to the EANMII boost, the most common 7 lowslot PvP armour tank was; LAR, MAR (or 2x LAR if you had PG), Exp, kin, therm hardeners, two damage mods. Powered by a cap booster of course. The base EM resistance isn't broken, and even suggesting lasers get explosive crystals is rediculus.
Snipes123us
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:40:00 -
[1740 ]
Edited by: Snipes123us on 10/08/2006 16:42:23 Edited by: Snipes123us on 10/08/2006 16:40:06 Originally by: Krulla Edited by: Krulla on 10/08/2006 16:24:10 You may notice that the Seraphim you posted has the same resistance to exp and kin, as your Tyrant has to EM and Thermal. Amarr ships are awesome for ratting Sansha's nation. Yes, they are armour tankers, but their lowest armour resistances are EM and thermal. And what the hell is bad about a 400 damage hit? If you are having trouble ratting Sansha's, the easiest NPCs in the game, using the ships best suited for them, it's you who suck, not the Amarr ships you fly. Angels are shield tankers, yes, but explosive is by far the best damage type to use against them. I rat angels and use explosive torpedoes and fusion ammo. Bah alt post. Zaethiel. Think before you open your mouth please. NPC damage resistances have nothing to do with player damage resistances. I don't have an trouble ratting anything since i can tank whatever i need to tank. I'm saying the guns aren't doing the damage they should. A mega with tech 2 ions can do as much to sansha rats. Also for pvp. Megas out damage Apocs by far esp when the apoc hits its armor the dps just kinda stops. i can hit a megas shield with over 1000 dmg hits if i get a perfect easily. and why are explosive crystals absurd? seems like ahving a reactive laser would fix a lot fo amarrs problems and balance the game better.
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:47:00 -
[1741 ]
Then again they couuld just raise the basic armor damage on all the crystals by 15% to compensate for the better tanking. I honestly wonder if we have a mathematical balance between the weapons and damage types right now, even WITH the new tanking. If this is indeed the case it would explain why no dev responds here. ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
Krulla
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:47:00 -
[1742 ]
Originally by: Snipes123us Edited by: Snipes123us on 10/08/2006 16:42:23 Edited by: Snipes123us on 10/08/2006 16:40:06 Originally by: Krulla Edited by: Krulla on 10/08/2006 16:24:10 You may notice that the Seraphim you posted has the same resistance to exp and kin, as your Tyrant has to EM and Thermal. Amarr ships are awesome for ratting Sansha's nation. Yes, they are armour tankers, but their lowest armour resistances are EM and thermal. And what the hell is bad about a 400 damage hit? If you are having trouble ratting Sansha's, the easiest NPCs in the game, using the ships best suited for them, it's you who suck, not the Amarr ships you fly. Angels are shield tankers, yes, but explosive is by far the best damage type to use against them. I rat angels and use explosive torpedoes and fusion ammo. Bah alt post. Zaethiel. Think before you open your mouth please. NPC damage resistances have nothing to do with player damage resistances. I don't have an trouble ratting anything since i can tank whatever i need to tank. I'm saying the guns aren't doing the damage they should. A mega with tech 2 ions can do as much to sansha rats. Also for pvp. Megas out damage Apocs by far esp when the apoc hits its armor the dps just kinda stops. i can hit a megas shield with over 1000 dmg hits if i get a perfect easily. and why are explosive crystals absurd? seems like ahving a reactive laser would fix a lot fo amarrs problems and balance the game better. Mind explaining to me why a Megathron with Ions doing more damage than a Apoc with Megapulses is wrong? One has a range of about 30km, the other has a range of about 10km. And releasing explosive crystals would be like making a armour tanking Caldari ship. It would completely destroy the flavour of the race.
Zaethiel
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:50:00 -
[1743 ]
Edited by: Zaethiel on 10/08/2006 16:53:06 Originally by: Krulla Mind explaining to me why a Megathron with Ions doing more damage than a Apoc with Megapulses is wrong? One has a range of about 30km, the other has a range of about 10km. And releasing explosive crystals would be like making a armour tanking Caldari ship. It would completely destroy the flavour of the race. So what do you suggest be done to fix the imbalance with Amarr?
Krulla
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.08.10 17:56:00 -
[1744 ]
Originally by: Zaethiel So what do you suggest be done to fix the imbalance with Amarr? Nerf EANMII and Amarr are fine.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.10 18:15:00 -
[1745 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 10/08/2006 18:17:36 Originally by: Krulla The problem is NOT the armour EM resistance. It has been that way since early early beta, and Amarr have been fine (in fact they were the I-win race for a long, long time), up to the point that EANMII were made useful. Prior to EANM, EM was usually about as high on a armour tanked BS as the other resistances, due to the fact that people didn't fit EM hardeners, precicely due to the high base resistance. In fact, I daresay that if they reduced armour EM resistance to 40%, it would actually make Amarr ships less powerful, as people would start fitting EM hardeners on their PvP ships (assuming they nerf EANMIIs) - resulting in a higher EM resistance than before. It's a bit more complicated IMO. The shield/armortanking ship relation and the base armor resists have been there a long time, yes. But that doesn't mean the problem wasn't there - it just wasn't visible. The core change with RMR was that armor tanking had *finally* an viable multi-resistance tank option. Prior to that nanos weren't really generally useable like invul fields for shields. Due to this there simply was no equivalent to 3 invul field tanks for armor tankers. Now, EAN2 are too strong, but thats only one sideproblem. With EAN2 we have two options (well, three if we include "they stay unchanged): - they get nerfed back to the stonage (or better: back to pre RNR, but that is pretty much the same thing), a few EAN2 BPO owners jump out of their POS windows, a few pages of complaints of people because they wasted millions of SP with the compensation skills,.. well, stuff will then get back to "normal" then. But I have my doubts CCP will do that. - they get balanced. For example made active with similar energyuse and fitting like invul fields and 25% resistance. What would change for the laser issue? Zip. People would still mount them - 2 EAN2 + 1 DC will in most cases still be a more viaable tank than 3 single resistance active harderners, even if the latter ones need less cap/sec and less cpu. In short: As long as armor tanking has a viaable multi resistance tanking module - it doesn't matter if active or passive - the EM resistance problem will remain. Pre-RMR 2 wrongs basically made 1 right. The resistance disadvantage of lasers was canceled by the lack of a multi resistance harderner for armor.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.10 18:56:00 -
[1746 ]
Originally by: Krulla Originally by: Zaethiel So what do you suggest be done to fix the imbalance with Amarr? Nerf EANMII and Amarr are fine. I would say the reverse. Boost compensation skills so they pump up active hardners from 55% to 65-70%. Then people will go back to active hardners and all races get a gimped damage output. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Dristra
Posted - 2006.08.10 18:57:00 -
[1747 ]
We are soon at the fabled numer of 60 pages, and no dev reply...
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.10 20:15:00 -
[1748 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 10/08/2006 20:15:25 When we get to 60 pages I will post an update. Lots of new ideas have occured across several threads and need to be included. I try to only post updates every 20 pages or so. Not everyone wants/has to read every single post in this thread like I do. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
BlackHorizon
CaldariInterstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.08.10 21:30:00 -
[1749 ]
Edited by: BlackHorizon on 10/08/2006 21:33:16 What about Amarrian drones? It seems almost no one uses them in PvP.
Byzan Zwyth
Posted - 2006.08.10 23:24:00 -
[1750 ]
Edited by: Byzan Zwyth on 10/08/2006 23:24:07 interested to see where this goes but in two days or so I'll have the skills to trade my omen in for a Vexor
Sato Kurosawa
Posted - 2006.08.10 23:56:00 -
[1751 ]
This thread has become my main source of entertainment over the last few weeks. Anybody moaning about not getting a dev response needs to read the garbage that has been posted here. One of my favorites was someone complaining about the amarr's useless cap bonus on a lot of there ships. while on other threads on the same page ammar are whining about the cap usage of there guns on the Abbadon without the above mentioned bonus. As for the ppl crying for a nerf on ean 2's I can just see where that would lead if implemented. In 3 months time we would have a 50page amarr whine about not being able to tank well enough since the ean2's were nerfed. And the comedy of ironies just goes on with this thread so ppl just let it die while the 7 or so of you who keep bumping it still have some small shreds of dignity and pride left.
Lisento Slaven
AmarrThe Drekla Consortium New Eve Order
Posted - 2006.08.10 23:59:00 -
[1752 ]
Originally by: Sato Kurosawa This thread has become my main source of entertainment over the last few weeks. Anybody moaning about not getting a dev response needs to read the garbage that has been posted here. One of my favorites was someone complaining about the amarr's useless cap bonus on a lot of there ships. while on other threads on the same page ammar are whining about the cap usage of there guns on the Abbadon without the above mentioned bonus. As for the ppl crying for a nerf on ean 2's I can just see where that would lead if implemented. In 3 months time we would have a 50page amarr whine about not being able to tank well enough since the ean2's were nerfed. And the comedy of ironies just goes on with this thread so ppl just let it die while the 7 or so of you who keep bumping it still have some small shreds of dignity and pride left. Maybe it's because we don't excel at anything =P --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
BirdBleed
Posted - 2006.08.11 01:21:00 -
[1753 ]
Originally by: Sato Kurosawa This thread has become my main source of entertainment over the last few weeks. Anybody moaning about not getting a dev response needs to read the garbage that has been posted here. One of my favorites was someone complaining about the amarr's useless cap bonus on a lot of there ships. while on other threads on the same page ammar are whining about the cap usage of there guns on the Abbadon without the above mentioned bonus. As for the ppl crying for a nerf on ean 2's I can just see where that would lead if implemented. In 3 months time we would have a 50page amarr whine about not being able to tank well enough since the ean2's were nerfed. And the comedy of ironies just goes on with this thread so ppl just let it die while the 7 or so of you who keep bumping it still have some small shreds of dignity and pride left. thanks for bumping the thread btw post with your main
Zaethiel
Posted - 2006.08.11 02:41:00 -
[1754 ]
Originally by: Krulla Originally by: Zaethiel So what do you suggest be done to fix the imbalance with Amarr? Nerf EANMII and Amarr are fine. The whole reason i used the NPCs as an example was to show you EANMII arent the problem. The Tyrant has an abnormaly low resistance EM/Therm on its armor. Lasers don't do as much as they should against its armor. The only reason people feel EANM are the problem is because people use them to boost 3/4 of the resists but incidently boost EM at the same time, they effect the damage yes, but its not the main problem they are just a small part of it.
Xendie
Chosen Path Center for Disease Creation
Posted - 2006.08.11 06:11:00 -
[1755 ]
Originally by: Zaethiel Originally by: Krulla Originally by: Zaethiel So what do you suggest be done to fix the imbalance with Amarr? Nerf EANMII and Amarr are fine. The whole reason i used the NPCs as an example was to show you EANMII arent the problem. The Tyrant has an abnormaly low resistance EM/Therm on its armor. Lasers don't do as much as they should against its armor. The only reason people feel EANM are the problem is because people use them to boost 3/4 of the resists but incidently boost EM at the same time, they effect the damage yes, but its not the main problem they are just a small part of it. can i have some of that minnie stuff you are smoking? Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.11 13:36:00 -
[1756 ]
what's this doing on page 3? ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Commander Thrawn
Fluffy rabbit killer's inc
Posted - 2006.08.11 14:04:00 -
[1757 ]
Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 11/08/2006 14:06:29 Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 11/08/2006 14:05:34 Originally by: Sato Kurosawa One of my favorites was someone complaining about the amarr's useless cap bonus on a lot of there ships. while on other threads on the same page ammar are whining about the cap usage of there guns on the Abbadon without the above mentioned bonus. both Valid points, because we need the cap bonus to allow us to even shoot our guns all the ships with a cap bonus essetially have one bonus as compare to the other races two. were as the abbadon lacks this bonus, that's all good and fun but without it, it's not gonna be able to fire its guns for more then 20seconds. The issue in both arguments, "complaints" as you call them, is the energy turrets eat wayyyyyyyyyyyy too much cap. Originally by: Sato Kurosawa As for the ppl crying for a nerf on ean 2's I can just see where that would lead if implemented. In 3 months time we would have a 50page amarr whine about not being able to tank well enough since the ean2's were nerfed. ean2 completly nerf our dmg type, since most non amarr ships do not cause em damage other then caldary and em missiles. i don't see how this is likely to happen. base resistance is already 60% using hardener was done prior to eanm2's and compasantion skills, and i don't remember amarr whines then. A good idea for this would be to lower the em resistance gain to eanm and the explosive gain for invulnerability fields(can't have the minies whining too)
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.11 14:46:00 -
[1758 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/08/2006 14:46:55 I had originally posted about the EANMII + DC hidden nerf to amarr weeks before this thread. If I remember correctly, I got labled as a clown until other Amarr pilots started to notice the same thing recently. Now, first of all, EANMII's should not be nerfed - Why? Just make the compensation skill boost active hardners from 55% to 65-70%. That way people will go back to Active hardners and suffer the gimpage in damage output that Amarr pilots are used to. Secondly, if Compensation skills are not boosted, then there is one small change that simple to implement and will cut down the whines. Give lasers perfect tracking. (This is different from saying Guarenteed hit, read below) Yes, for a long time now people say "How can a laser miss, Projectiles should miss! L0lzEr!". Why dont we fix this so that amarr have perfect tracking, and only miss due to signature size vs turret resoultion. I for one, would accept perfect tracking in exchange for the gimped damage output. With that said, all is forgiven if the Abaddon is a Missile or Drone boat! ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.08.11 15:02:00 -
[1759 ]
lord i actually love the idea, i would love to have my lasers hit well. people alway put lasers have the best tracking up in the air, but anything below optimal and we start to miss. also anything moving a few hundred m/s about optimal w/ pulse and mf crystals doesnt hit quite like it should (same sized target cruiser vs cruiser or inty vs inty). because the tracking is made for mid-long range execution. from looking at the tracking guide u can see how laser dmg dropps while u calculate the transversal velocity in it. i have seen most lasers w/ less than average dps in average fighting ranges for several ships. *tries to find his girls ftp info to post the screens of all this crap* using pulses on a inty is awful, atleast from my experience. they miss another inty unless i stop my a/b while im webbing them. but i fear this would never happen, for some reason ccp and the rest of eve think that damage done by amarr is far more adequate than it is, thus that the problem isnt really as big as say this thread : / that and i dont think many people that make decisions on the game fly anything even close to amarr or possibly ever will. The feeling that amarr is still a good race must still be left over from long long ago when we were still un nerfed.
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.11 15:08:00 -
[1760 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/08/2006 14:46:55 I had originally posted about the EANMII + DC hidden nerf to amarr weeks before this thread. If I remember correctly, I got labled as a clown until other Amarr pilots started to notice the same thing recently. Now, first of all, EANMII's should not be nerfed - Why? Just make the compensation skill boost active hardners from 55% to 65-70%. That way people will go back to Active hardners and suffer the gimpage in damage output that Amarr pilots are used to. Secondly, if Compensation skills are not boosted, then there is one small change that simple to implement and will cut down the whines. Give lasers perfect tracking. (This is different from saying Guarenteed hit, read below) Yes, for a long time now people say "How can a laser miss, Projectiles should miss! L0lzEr!". Why dont we fix this so that amarr have perfect tracking, and only miss due to signature size vs turret resoultion. I for one, would accept perfect tracking in exchange for the gimped damage output. With that said, all is forgiven if the Abaddon is a Missile or Drone boat! /signed
Xendie
Brutor tribe
Posted - 2006.08.11 20:33:00 -
[1761 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/08/2006 14:46:55 I had originally posted about the EANMII + DC hidden nerf to amarr weeks before this thread. If I remember correctly, I got labled as a clown until other Amarr pilots started to notice the same thing recently. Now, first of all, EANMII's should not be nerfed - Why? Just make the compensation skill boost active hardners from 55% to 65-70%. That way people will go back to Active hardners and suffer the gimpage in damage output that Amarr pilots are used to. Secondly, if Compensation skills are not boosted, then there is one small change that simple to implement and will cut down the whines. Give lasers perfect tracking. (This is different from saying Guarenteed hit, read below) Yes, for a long time now people say "How can a laser miss, Projectiles should miss! L0lzEr!". Why dont we fix this so that amarr have perfect tracking, and only miss due to signature size vs turret resoultion. I for one, would accept perfect tracking in exchange for the gimped damage output. With that said, all is forgiven if the Abaddon is a Missile or Drone boat! now theres a fun idea. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Frools
No Quarter.
Posted - 2006.08.11 20:44:00 -
[1762 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Yes, for a long time now people say "How can a laser miss, Projectiles should miss! L0lzEr!". Why dont we fix this so that amarr have perfect tracking, and only miss due to signature size vs turret resoultion. I for one, would accept perfect tracking in exchange for the gimped damage output. that doesnt make any sense, the turret still has to move to track the target its just that it would have to point right at the target instead of leading it it would certainly be interesting but i think a) a little overpowered b) rather hard to implement ccp would have to create a whole new turret hit/miss/damage system just for lasers
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.11 22:56:00 -
[1763 ]
Originally by: Frools Originally by: Lord WarATron Yes, for a long time now people say "How can a laser miss, Projectiles should miss! L0lzEr!". Why dont we fix this so that amarr have perfect tracking, and only miss due to signature size vs turret resoultion. I for one, would accept perfect tracking in exchange for the gimped damage output. that doesnt make any sense, the turret still has to move to track the target its just that it would have to point right at the target instead of leading it it would certainly be interesting but i think a) a little overpowered b) rather hard to implement ccp would have to create a whole new turret hit/miss/damage system just for lasers CCP dont have to introduce any changes - Read the tracking guide. The system is already ingame - the current tracking issue is just a extra addon to screw up turret users. To hit a target, they must first be in your trackng values AND then and only then does the turret resolution vs sig radious calculation take place. My suggestion is make amarr have tracking of 10 or something to give it a guarenteed shot, and then its purely a turret resolution for his/miss chance. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Joanne Lynx
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.12 08:00:00 -
[1764 ]
Edited by: Joanne Lynx on 12/08/2006 08:02:53 Edited by: Joanne Lynx on 12/08/2006 08:02:01 Originally by: madaluap 1. You want to be gallente and have thermal as primary (will never happen) just for the record small ammo according to eve-online website: antimatter - kin 7 , therm 5 iridium - kin 4 , therm 3 iron - kin 3 , therm 2 lead - kin 5 , therm 3 plutonium - kin 6 , therm 5 thorium - kin 5 , therm 4 tungsten - kin 4 , therm 2 uranium - kin 6 , therm 4 null - kin 5, therm 6 void - kin 7, therm 8 javelin - kin 6, therm 9 spike - kin 4, therm 5 gallente drone boats have bonus to drones, not to thermal drones. if you say that gallente are thermal race cos of t2 ammo (most used in pvp) someone could say that amarr are drone/nos race cos of curse/pilgrim used in pvp as well i havent played amarr yet (thou planing to do so if any good fix occures) but from what i see, amarr coud have swapped dmg in crystals between em and thermal (different precentages of each, for example some crystals mostly doing em dmg, some thermal) and galente could have more differential rates of kin and thermal as well also boosting active armor hardeners seems to be the right thing to do according to rumors, that ccp wants fights to last longer also after reading whole 60 pages it seems that amarr lacks of role in this game. from slots layout i would guess that they should tank good with armor and gank with lasers as well (low number of low slots make them hard to do anything else) so i think ccp should probably go in that directions with fixes sory for mistakes, english is not my native language
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.12 10:24:00 -
[1765 ]
Yea, Gallente are Kinetic, Minmatar are Explosive, Amarr should be Thermal (makes sense for lasers) and Caldari EM specialists!Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Arminius I
AmarrFGC Defence
Posted - 2006.08.12 18:17:00 -
[1766 ]
Having read the majority of this thread [I kid not] it seems evident, and has "petitonable" criteria with it, that "someone" needs to make a comment from on-high [either way]. Amarr needs some loving =) ArminiusCEO - FGC - Defence http://www.fgc-gaming.com
Krulla
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.08.12 20:13:00 -
[1767 ]
Originally by: Zaethiel Originally by: Krulla Originally by: Zaethiel So what do you suggest be done to fix the imbalance with Amarr? Nerf EANMII and Amarr are fine. The whole reason i used the NPCs as an example was to show you EANMII arent the problem. The Tyrant has an abnormaly low resistance EM/Therm on its armor. Lasers don't do as much as they should against its armor. The only reason people feel EANM are the problem is because people use them to boost 3/4 of the resists but incidently boost EM at the same time, they effect the damage yes, but its not the main problem they are just a small part of it. By that very same reason I can say that projectiles don't do enough damage against shields, because that Seraphim you posted has abnormay low explosive and kinetic resistance.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.12 20:30:00 -
[1768 ]
Originally by: Krulla By that very same reason I can say that projectiles don't do enough damage against shields, because that Seraphim you posted has abnormay low explosive and kinetic resistance. Sure you _could_ say that. But you'd probably know that projectiles have the option to do EM as primary damage on their ammo aswell as thermal, both great damage types against sheilds. So yeah you could say it but you'd be an asshat... - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Krulla
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.08.12 21:35:00 -
[1769 ]
Edited by: Krulla on 12/08/2006 21:35:38 Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Krulla By that very same reason I can say that projectiles don't do enough damage against shields, because that Seraphim you posted has abnormay low explosive and kinetic resistance. Sure you _could_ say that. But you'd probably know that projectiles have the option to do EM as primary damage on their ammo aswell as thermal, both great damage types against sheilds. So yeah you could say it but you'd be an asshat... My whole damn point was that comparing player resistances to NPC resistances is ******* retarded, and has no bearing whatsoever on game balance - NPCs have equal resistances accross the board for each bounty class.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.12 21:41:00 -
[1770 ]
Originally by: Krulla My whole damn point was that comparing player resistances to NPC resistances is ******* retarded, and has no bearing whatsoever on game balance - NPCs have equal resistances accross the board for each bounty class. If that was your point, then I agree. NPC resist have little to do with actual game balance. And bringing them up in this thread is basically further derailing a thread that's been of it's rail for a long while IMO. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Aberash
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.12 22:53:00 -
[1771 ]
as i see this topic has got really out of hand (page 60 ) just face it Amarr needs a little bit of a boost.. but doing it without making them overpowering.Sig dimensions must be no more than 400W x 120H, please resize - Cathath
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.13 00:03:00 -
[1772 ]
This really belongs to another thread but as I feel this thread has become a second home to me I decided to post this here aswell. After being challenged to do run the numbers on the EANMIIs vs 3x actives tanks effect on lasers. Here is what I found out. Raw DPS comparison, no resist and no repairer. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 762 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 743 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 656 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 569 DPS (13.3% less than EMP) Megathron is ofcourse on top with the Armageddon close behind. Notice I used 2 types of ammo on the Tempest, EMP with 45% em damage and Fusion with 80% explosive but less raw damage. DPS with tank. Tank = 2 EANMII and DC + one LAR II Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 269 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 187 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 211 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 259 DPS Here we see a different picture, the Armageddon is trailing far behind the others and the Tempest with Fusion loaded is actually only 3,8% away from the blasterthrons effective DPS. The EMP tempest now has lower DPS than the fusion one, due to it's EM damage. Here we see what's left of that raw DPS after tanking. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 35,3% of original DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 25,1% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 32.2% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 45.5 %of original DPS 22.7% higher than EMP Now here is these calculations with 3x active t2 hardeners replacing the EANMII + DC tank. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 243 DPS (31.9% of original DPS) Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 264 DPS (35.5% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 256 DPS (39% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 233 DPS (40.9% of original DPS, 9% less than emp) Now here the numbers are alot different, lasers are now what they used to be - great. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Devoras2
AmarrConfederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.13 14:59:00 -
[1773 ]
Page 3 And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Rockpounder
Posted - 2006.08.13 15:07:00 -
[1774 ]
Originally by: Dixon This really belongs to another thread but as I feel this thread has become a second home to me I decided to post this here aswell. After being challenged to do run the numbers on the EANMIIs vs 3x actives tanks effect on lasers. Here is what I found out. Raw DPS comparison, no resist and no repairer. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 762 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 743 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 656 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 569 DPS (13.3% less than EMP) Megathron is ofcourse on top with the Armageddon close behind. Notice I used 2 types of ammo on the Tempest, EMP with 45% em damage and Fusion with 80% explosive but less raw damage. DPS with tank. Tank = 2 EANMII and DC + one LAR II Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 269 DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 187 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 211 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 259 DPS Here we see a different picture, the Armageddon is trailing far behind the others and the Tempest with Fusion loaded is actually only 3,8% away from the blasterthrons effective DPS. The EMP tempest now has lower DPS than the fusion one, due to it's EM damage. Here we see what's left of that raw DPS after tanking. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 35,3% of original DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 25,1% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 32.2% of original DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 45.5 %of original DPS 22.7% higher than EMP Now here is these calculations with 3x active t2 hardeners replacing the EANMII + DC tank. Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) --- 243 DPS (31.9% of original DPS) Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) --- 264 DPS (35.5% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) --- 256 DPS (39% of original DPS) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Fusion] (3 Dm) --- 233 DPS (40.9% of original DPS, 9% less than emp) Now here the numbers are alot different, lasers are now what they used to be - great. This shows exactly what we are talking about
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.13 15:11:00 -
[1775 ]
Originally by: Rockpounder This shows exactly what we are talking about It gets worse... this is my sheild tanking result: Raw DPS before tanking Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) ) --- 762DPS Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) ) --- 743 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) ) --- 656 DPS Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Phased Plasma] (3 Dm) ) --- 596 DPS (20% lower than the armageddon) VS sheild tank w/2xt2 invulns, 1x photon scatter t2 + xlarge sheild booster - (Em:72,43%/Expl:79,3%/Kin:68,95%/Therm:58,6%) Megathron (Ion Blaster Cannon T2 [Antimatter] (3 Dm) ) --- 270 DPS (35.4% of original DPS remaining) Armageddon (Megapulse T2 [Best T1] (3 Dm) ) --- 248 DPS (32.5% of original DPS remaining) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Emp] (3 Dm) ) --- 169 DPS (25.7% of original DPS remaining) Tempest (800Mm Ac T2 [Phased Plasma] (3 Dm) ) --- 235 DPS (39.4% of original DPS remaining and 5.3% lower than the armageddon) Note that I used phased plasma on my second Tempest as it is the most damaging projectile ammo on sheild tanks. And also note that again, despite EMP being the highest damage projectile ammo, it's damage types makes it inferior to the more specialized types (like fusion in my post above). Again this shows how damage types can put raw DPS to shame. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.13 17:02:00 -
[1776 ]
Originally by: Krulla Edited by: Krulla on 12/08/2006 21:35:38 My whole damn point was that comparing player resistances to NPC resistances is *edit* retarded, and has no bearing whatsoever on game balance - NPCs have equal resistances accross the board for each bounty class. NPC's have equal resists for each bounty class? WTS you: clue Hint: lasers suck for ratting angels Cmon ppl need to pickup the pace, we've been on page 60 for a while, we have to get to 100 remember? focus! :p
Yodohime Kibagami
AmarrMordu's Elite
Posted - 2006.08.13 17:22:00 -
[1777 ]
Has anyone done the comparisons for the sustainability of the different top tier dps battleships? Lacking 4'th mid for the precious cap booster 800 unlike with megathron probably hurts geddon almost as much as damage types.
Cuisinart
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.08.13 17:31:00 -
[1778 ]
Seems almost pointless. Kinda obvious the devs just don't give a damn or they would have interjected with a few words.
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.13 17:33:00 -
[1779 ]
Edited by: eLLioTT wave on 13/08/2006 17:33:56 Originally by: Cuisinart Seems almost pointless. Kinda obvious the devs just don't give a damn or they would have interjected with a few words. Don't give up! persistence ftw! edit: and voila! one page closer
Ling Xiao
Posted - 2006.08.13 17:34:00 -
[1780 ]
Edited by: Ling Xiao on 13/08/2006 17:34:55 I will get a face before they bother to reply here. oh, and I'm 5 months old... Yeah... good luck
Pepperami
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.13 19:55:00 -
[1781 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron With that said, all is forgiven if the Abaddon is a Missile or Drone boat !
Juntz
Posted - 2006.08.13 21:32:00 -
[1782 ]
I was at GenCon and was told if this gets to 2500 posts we'd get the raven switched over to be amarrian and we'd loose the apoc to balance everything out.
OMGROFLBBQ
Posted - 2006.08.14 00:17:00 -
[1783 ]
lol
CB Cyrix
GeoTech
Posted - 2006.08.14 11:54:00 -
[1784 ]
still no word from devs yet?-Taking his YARR Pills Since 2003-
GOFTI
Posted - 2006.08.14 13:11:00 -
[1785 ]
Wow this is still going on and yet no reply
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.14 13:19:00 -
[1786 ]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 13:19:38 Its beyond me that you guys still think you are going to get a reply to this thread just because it has many pages... sigh. Most of this thread is general discussion and crap posts tbh. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Ridjeck Thome
Suicide Valley Alliance Inc Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2006.08.14 13:51:00 -
[1787 ]
Edited by: Ridjeck Thome on 14/08/2006 13:54:11 Edited by: Ridjeck Thome on 14/08/2006 13:52:42 Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 13:19:38 Its beyond me that you guys still think you are going to get a reply to this thread just because it has many pages... sigh. Most of this thread is general discussion and crap posts tbh. whilst some of what you say is undoubtedly true, its a vast step from that to say this post is not worthy of at least some kind of feedback. There are some very good ideas in this thread which, as paying curstomers, we are asking CCP to consider. Just because you dont think its worth persevering with, doesnt mean to say you are right, nor does it invalidate the efforts of others to change something they care about.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.14 13:55:00 -
[1788 ]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2006 13:19:38 Its beyond me that you guys still think you are going to get a reply to this thread just because it has many pages... sigh. Most of this thread is general discussion and crap posts tbh. true, but it's almost become a habit to post here regularly. And I don't actually think we're getting any reply - unless it's a "I'm locking this thread and you guys are all ***" response. The fact is that between the crap posts and general discussions there are some good arguements and that's why we keep this post going. To remind those who care (and even those who don't) that this is a problem and it's not going away unless something is done. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
CB Cyrix
GeoTech
Posted - 2006.08.14 15:56:00 -
[1789 ]
Well atleast the people in this posted havent started forum ransoming yet, where they required a dev reply or else all of them will make the thread so long it will fill the server..... And they wont stop there, they will post and crash wall street and all that... ... today the forums, tomorrow the WORLD!-Taking his YARR Pills Since 2003-
Jormunrek
AmarrMining Bytes Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.14 16:13:00 -
[1790 ]
Anyone else noticing the + shield and armor bonus on the vengeance is not showing up? Doin an info on myself while out in space and it is still showing the same as doing info off of market. Well minus my additional resists from mods. Still boggled that there hasn't been some sort of offical response to this thread yet. =/ Jorm
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.14 16:18:00 -
[1791 ]
Originally by: Jormunrek Anyone else noticing the + shield and armor bonus on the vengeance is not showing up? The resist bonus is built-in to the base stats. It's a confusing way of doing things but it's done consistently for any bonus based on a skill that's required at level V. Originally by: Jormunrek Still boggled that there hasn't been some sort of offical response to this thread yet. =/ Give them time. I wouldn't expect to see any response in this thread at all but I'd hope the problem will be addressed eventually, one way or another. I'm sure they've read all the good arguments posted here and elsewhere already.
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.08.14 17:10:00 -
[1792 ]
I haven't responded in a long time, I guess I was letting others keep this going. I have an increasing hope that the Devs do have something to say about Amarr, but have yet to say something. Whether they just dont know or do know and will be posting a blog soon about it, I'm not sure. I do agree that damage controls & EAN2's have made em damage suck, but I'm one that ever wants things nerfed, I'm more of a booster or workaround guy. CCP will not nerf defense. So, I think we need our cap to lasers bonus removed, replaced with bonuses to compensate for our problems. Reduce cap to lasers by 50%. Rebalance the crystal damage across the board, giving more thermal to certain crystals so we have an option like minmitar/caldari do when they need to change damage types. We also need a boost to our ew resistance. Because of the lack of midslots we can neither jam or fit eccms on to help ourselves, therefore the only way to help us here is to increase our ew resistance. All that should do it, not sure CCP is prepared to make a fix that big, but its needed.
xenorx
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.08.14 17:23:00 -
[1793 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata I haven't responded in a long time, I guess I was letting others keep this going. I have an increasing hope that the Devs do have something to say about Amarr, but have yet to say something. Whether they just dont know or do know and will be posting a blog soon about it, I'm not sure. I do agree that damage controls & EAN2's have made em damage suck, but I'm one that ever wants things nerfed, I'm more of a booster or workaround guy. CCP will not nerf defense. So, I think we need our cap to lasers bonus removed, replaced with bonuses to compensate for our problems. Reduce cap to lasers by 50%. Rebalance the crystal damage across the board, giving more thermal to certain crystals so we have an option like minmitar/caldari do when they need to change damage types. We also need a boost to our ew resistance. Because of the lack of midslots we can neither jam or fit eccms on to help ourselves, therefore the only way to help us here is to increase our ew resistance. All that should do it, not sure CCP is prepared to make a fix that big, but its needed. Pretty much nailed my feelings exactly there Cosmo. I have no doubt that the developers have read this thread. although, I doubt we will see a response to it. At least not directly. CCP is not blind to the situation and will have to address it eventually.No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
gu o
Posted - 2006.08.14 17:59:00 -
[1794 ]
I have been following this thread just about everyday, and have seen every post. I have been looking at everything that has been said and tried to compare with my own personal experience. I am a terrible writer so I will say "sorry" in advance for the lack of communication that I will be attempting to unveil to you. First off let me explain that I have only been play EvE since Dec of 05' (last Christmas) I have 6.3 million sp, the vast majority in drones and learning. I along with many of my corp mates were extremely gun-hoe in our attempts to get into bs's and go to 0.0 sec to rat and hunt. we were sucessful and got to a place called h-gki6 (if you reading this are the ones who ganked many of us....congrats I can admitt I was terribly noob at the time) My buddies mostly had ravens, I had my geddon, and another had a megathron. I was amazed...blown away in fact with the ability that the ravens had. they could tear through a few belts in the time it took me to get throug one. The thron was vastly supperior to my geddon as well. I was at this point getting a bit upset in my Amarrian choice of toons/ships. But then I remember an older player telling me tales of how uber amarr was in PVP. so I fought my corpmates in mock battles... Needless to say I got my arse owned so hard everytime. My corpmates with raven would take me out no match. they would just fly away and at 50km my pulse were all but worthless (they still were able to drain my capacitor pretty well so they had a purpose ) SO I refit with beams...sucess I could hit at 50km fairly well (granted the damage output was so incredably poor I was almost in tears) but I could actually hit them... But then I went up against my corp mate with the megathron...I knew he had blasters and would try to close the distance. So i did all I could think of. Pulse and an afterburner... well we started at 40km (he gave me a chance kinda) and i immediatly started pluggin away...radio all the way. I was flying away from him as fast as i could, but what amazed me was how fast he closed the gap. I was firing and he was chasing me down like a lame bird. i had to switch to mutli-freq in a surprizingly short durration of time. I was hitting for the moment... I had his shield down and was starting in on his armour. To my avail he forgot to inject his cap boosters and his mwd died out...i had a min of shooting b4 he was back on the chase...I was pluggin away as fast as i could. i had to to about 2/3 armour. and not getting anylower. Worst of all I was destroying my capacitor i was on the bottom 1/3. then all of a sudden his cap was alive and he was ontop of me like a fat kid on a cupcake...his blasters tore through my shields in 2 volleys. I was praying that my armour tank would be all I had tried to make it out to be... but it was not. I could not sustain the tank/shooting worth a damn. he was chewing through my armour so fast I was actually scared hed just pop me on accident b4 he could turn off his guns. These mock battles were great im my learning of pvp... amarr blows ... The thron had eaten my 100mil isk investment like G-bush can tell lies. I was devistated, I had spent all my isk in making this thing. It was all for not, a thron would *****me so hard... and a raven could ace me at any range...it was sickening. From the discription on the main page amarr sounded like me, "Harding hittin lasers and heavy tank". Well Amarr is not this by any streach of the imagination. CCP will you please make change the main screen when your making your character. Amarr discription should read: "A once great and vastly devistating race, the Amarr have been Nerfed into oblivion. There once powerful lasers have been transformed into nothing more than "self-nosing devices" If you are looking to waste time/money but have great light shows (only rivaled by the all-powerful caldari) this race is for you. Just remember the Amarrian motto: Light bulb shooters FTW!Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
Lord KoO
Posted - 2006.08.14 18:50:00 -
[1795 ]
Hehe, how true, how true. It's lamb how agent runners in the poc are now putting blasters on to do sufficient damage on level 4 missions.
korrey
Corinth Associates
Posted - 2006.08.14 19:12:00 -
[1796 ]
I think the Devs will say something soon, if they werent at least looking at this they'd have locked it 50 pages ago...If you cant beat something, arrange to have it beaten. -Corinth Associates
Lickity Split
Posted - 2006.08.14 19:28:00 -
[1797 ]
There are Devs?
VCBee 909
Posted - 2006.08.14 19:52:00 -
[1798 ]
My main is just done with Advanced Learning and soon Cruiser IV for Amarr. Looking at the training times for a long range pew pew setup and other factors that like mid slots which I really like, it looks like my Amarr that loves beams just might be going to Caldari/Gallente BS. I might do the Amarr Cruiser V for the Pilgrim but otherwise there is very little in Amarr ship arsenal that isn't aimed for tanking and lasting possibly couple seconds longer in combat is all that useful unless you're there as the target in the target practise. Amarr should seriously get some more damage types or double the thermal base. And more ships with +25% optimal range per level since being able to hit from range is far more advantageous than some 10% damage boost if you can't ever get to use it before you're dead.
trialpic
Posted - 2006.08.14 20:04:00 -
[1799 ]
i am sure this has been said a thoushand times but here is my 2 cents: i love me apoc... best PvE tank around. but when it somes o PvP it blows. going up agains a corp mates raven i cant even break his shield which is BS considering he cant tank lvl 4s as efficiant as me! my gunnery skills are very good (most lvl 4s) and i get raped by his raven when he goes all out. but when it comes to tanking 7-14 npcs in Guristas Extraviganza i am the man to have with you. is this fair deffinetly not sure i can tank is dmg for 7-12 min when i dont fire at him but when i turn my tachs on to do some dmg back i get pwned. Devs please help out my race! love the ships love the weapons (as far as no ammo needed, look and sounds) nothing more intimidating when you hear 5 tachs go off for 3 secounds. i mean lets face it it would be much nicer if we could pwn someone with our disco show!!!
VCBee 909
Posted - 2006.08.14 20:14:00 -
[1800 ]
Originally by: DrEiak every amarr ship save for the arbitrator, augor, and that mining frig, have 10% reduced cap usage. ITS KILLING US, we need a second bonus that DOES SOMETHING besides make our primary weapons usable. Totally agree. What kind of bonus is it if it's there just to make the weapons usable? And that will be quickly dealt with some NOS. The purpose of that bonus is just to make it harder for other races to fit lasers, but why would they even want to? Reducing beam/pulse cap usage wouldn't really make other races want to fit these weapons. Switch the cap bonus to range bonus or bigger drone bays.
Dristra
Posted - 2006.08.14 20:26:00 -
[1801 ]
I agree, my apoc is alot better at pvp#ing with auto cannons than lasers...
Pepster
Posted - 2006.08.14 21:39:00 -
[1802 ]
I'll just throw in my too noodles on what I think about Amarr; At this point I think its safe to say that we won't be seeing a response from a developer of any kind unless its along the lines of "Down with Amarr...j/k....not..." (a dev did say that btw, I just can't find the quote) which of course would prompt a not so nice response from everyone who flies Amarr. I'm sure they're watching this thread so I guess we'll just have to wait and see. That said, I fly nothing but Amarr due to role playing reasons, I just think they are beutiful ships. Plus the whole pew pew laser thing is cool. BUT, asthetics only goes so far. Amarr ships basically get 1 ship bonus due to the fact that the cap usage bonus to our lasers just makes the guns usable, what kind of bonus is that!? The fact that our ships generally have fewer mid slots to work with means that if we go up against someone who has ECM fitted (which is basically everybody these days) we will die a horrible quick death. That combined with the cap usage issue of lasers (even with the "bonus") means that we either have to tank and not shoot, or shoot and not tank. Not a good choice by any stretch of the imagination. These issues leads to very predictable ship setups for Amarr ships. Basically lasers need to be re-worked in a major way. EM/thermal damage is so bad right now with the passive tanks that can be fitted, its rediculous. So, we have ships with 1 ship bonus to counter act all the other races 2 ship bonuses, a lack of mid slots which means that if you face an amarr ship you know damn well they're going to be shooting you so fit a jammer and get an easy kill or fit some nos and let the amarr shoot themselves to death. How can this be fixed? Lasers: A re-working of how lasers work is in order. Get rid of that cap usage "bonus" and give us something meaningful, anything will do, I'm not picky. Lower cap usage of lasers to something comparable to hybrids. If the purpose of the cap usage bonus is to guarentee that only the Amarr use lasers then thats fine, let us keep that bonus and don't change the cap usage on lasers, just give us 2 ship bonuses that enhance our ships, not one ship enhancing bonus and one bonus that makes lasers usable and nothing else. At the moment we essentially have 1 ship bonus, its assinine. Change our damage types, or at least give us new crystals so we have the option to switch around our damage types like ALL THE OTHER RACES CAN DO!! Ship design: Re-working the slot layout is too simple and unimaginative, that would just give us a laser shooting version of galenti/minmitar/caldari whatever. What we need is a bonus to ECM resistance or something along those lines. Speaking of unimaginative.....our ships!! All the other races utilize 2 weapon systems whereas Amarr only use one. One can make the arguement that we use drones as well but lets be honest, its only used by a few of our ships so it hardly qualifies as a secondary weapon system. Give Amarr more variety and versitility in ship capabilities. Basically I think the problem isn't so much that Amarr sucks, its that we're the only race that isn't balanced. Minmitar fall into this catagory as well tbh. It seems the devs only care about Caldari/Galenti at the moment which is funny seeing as how the Role Play content is based mostly around Amarr/Minmitar. In closing I'd like to say: Pay attention CCP, your paying customers are voicing their desires on their game and what they want you to do with it. Ignoring them could lead to them quiting the game which means less money for you.
c0matose
Posted - 2006.08.14 21:49:00 -
[1803 ]
Please devs, just give us your views. Anything is better than silence.
gu o
Posted - 2006.08.14 22:51:00 -
[1804 ]
guys come off it. In the time this thread has been running I have learned how to fly a domi. Its amazing, it is 100000000000 times better than any geddon can ever get. just learn the other races. It is obvious that ccp is thinking were just fine... I laugh so hard everytime the dev's answer a fair portion of the other posts. For example the tier 3 gal battle ship was respanded to in a matter of minutes. Were sitting high n dry months later. Its obvious ccp is willing to let amarr die. I just want ccp to go ahead and do the right thing... change the details on the character build screen. something along the lines of "choose this race to learn another race 6 months later when you find out they suck balls. If you wanna be uber wtf be caldari or gallient. The amarr were good once but we have nerfed them in the butt 88 times" Yeah I feel for you mini's too, though you have it alot better than we do.Big, scary, sharp teeth (insert scary, angry bear here) like that. I must be the scarriest carebear ever...
Nosferatu Zodd
Black-Sun
Posted - 2006.08.14 23:32:00 -
[1805 ]
I think the devs are so busy reading the posts that they don't have time to handle the problem anymore. 61 pages, there must be something realy wrong here. Stop reading, start thinking and solve the problem :p Or maybe they are just stuck on the problem. How are you going to change something that has been there for so long. And what are the consequences of doing so. Anyway, I also think there must be done something ... err alot. -------------------------------------------------------
MacQueen
AmarrParty of One
Posted - 2006.08.15 01:43:00 -
[1806 ]
Originally by: Nosferatu Zodd I think the devs are so busy reading the posts that they don't have time to handle the problem anymore. 61 pages, there must be something realy wrong here. Stop reading, start thinking and solve the problem :p Or maybe they are just stuck on the problem. How are you going to change something that has been there for so long. And what are the consequences of doing so. Anyway, I also think there must be done something ... err alot. Well, Devs are busy with Kali and beside, to look after Amarr, it's a big job, a total overhaul, not only a couple figure that they done before with other boost. That's what make them reluctant to fix it, not enough man power, perhap. But well... 61 pages.. errr.. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Evelyn Lavi
Posted - 2006.08.15 02:33:00 -
[1807 ]
Originally by: DrEiak Kali has still been very hush hush IMO. It is possible that kali will bring amarr something new that can help, but with some of the nerfs they are proposing it makes me extremely sceptical, I still think that my previous suggestion is the best one i have seen so far, as it doenst change laser damage, EM, shield boosting, but does entail an overhaul for at least 3/4 of amarr ships. My promise to fly only amarr ships is starting to fade, as caldari becomes more and more appealing :/ It's sad, I agree. I usually put style over "OMG STATS" but the deluge of ECM, projectiles beating the tar out of lasers, and general Amarr gimpage basically suggests that to compete reasonably well, you better get into a space turd (Dominix), a rusty fence with guns on it (Tempest) or a "worst battleship design ever" (Scorpion)
Hitomi Ayame
AmarrRoyal Knights of Khanid
Posted - 2006.08.15 04:14:00 -
[1808 ]
Originally by: gu o guys come off it. In the time this thread has been running I have learned how to fly a domi. Q F T I'm a Khanid RPer. I shouldn't have to come up with RP reasons to fly Gallente just because Amarr ships suck so badly. - - -The Royal Knights of Khanid are now recruiting! Step up and serve God and Khanid today!
magnus amadeus
Posted - 2006.08.15 05:10:00 -
[1809 ]
/signed
Weryl
Posted - 2006.08.15 09:03:00 -
[1810 ]
Heh please.. they're not going to fix Amarr anytime soon.. FFS the Focused Medium Beam laser and the Quad Light Beam laser have their graphics reversed .. I'm a newb and I could tell that in less than 5 minutes playing with Amarr cruisers .. it's BRUTALLY obvious no devs play or even test Amarr Weryl
Warnings
Posted - 2006.08.15 11:15:00 -
[1811 ]
I have see beautiful graph but the little problem ... It's graph WITHOUT base resist !!! It's great amarr ship have the highest dps but you can remove +50% dmg on shield/armor. And when you try to shoot a npc with 90%em 85%thermal, you remove 75% dmg. I have fitt my zealot with a smartbomb, t2 lence and 3 heat sink for can shoot a npc ... Ah yes, a another good thing the great lence t2 ... With a BPO t2 you can build about 15 lences per day but I need 4-8 per plex ... I have make a mission cosmos with a zealot. I have explode 8 lences t2. You make 2 plex, you need to have 2 bpo and without this lence you canno't make the plex alone because you can break the tank of npc or repop while and you canno't activate gate lol Yes amarr have a good dps but are very bad because the true damage output is too low. (NB : I have 9m3 sp in gunnery only laser and yes I have this problem ... If you have the choice change quickly to another race. I make more dmg with 1m3 sp in missile launcher (t1))
eleet hackstress
Posted - 2006.08.15 13:55:00 -
[1812 ]
i'm an amarr and i really want free things. i think we deserve to be the best race in the game. Please make lasers do all 4 damage types and multiply dps by 4 and we will be happy. Also, make all other guns terrible. I know that it's hard to carry backup ammo, so Amarr should be completely exempt from that. I think its funny that Minmatar have to use about 1/2 their cargo room to hold all their bullets for their guns at all times, otherwise they'll run out of ammo in 2-3 minutes, while we are concerned and upset when we have to go through 5-6 pieces of ammo in a long mission. boo hoo.
Khrome Dohm
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.08.15 14:13:00 -
[1813 ]
Originally by: eleet hackstress i'm an amarr and i really want free things. i think we deserve to be the best race in the game. Please make lasers do all 4 damage types and multiply dps by 4 and we will be happy. Also, make all other guns terrible. Then fly CONCORD. ----------------------------------------------- Blessed are the procrastinators, for they shall die last.
Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.15 15:20:00 -
[1814 ]
Originally by: eleet hackstress Lots of silly stuff Post with your main.Ship lovers click here
Lickity Split
Posted - 2006.08.15 15:21:00 -
[1815 ]
i think most people posting keeping this thread going just want a response from devs or anyone at ccp. well you may ask "what would that do"? well if the devs say there is nothing wrong then the people that have spent a year + in specialzation could quit wasting time with amarr and switch. yeah there will be some *****ing but hey that is ok. well lets say devs say there is a problem and it is going to be looked into. that would give the people that have spent that year doing amarr hope. then anti amarr people will *****, and to would be ok. 1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus. 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed. 3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam. 4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs. 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety. 6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc.
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.15 15:36:00 -
[1816 ]
Originally by: Lickity Split 1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus. 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed. 3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam. 4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs. 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety. 6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc. some nice points there, esp #3 ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Xendie
Brutor tribe
Posted - 2006.08.15 15:51:00 -
[1817 ]
Edited by: Xendie on 15/08/2006 15:51:25 Originally by: Lickity Split i think most people posting keeping this thread going just want a response from devs or anyone at ccp. well you may ask "what would that do"? well if the devs say there is nothing wrong then the people that have spent a year + in specialzation could quit wasting time with amarr and switch. yeah there will be some *****ing but hey that is ok. well lets say devs say there is a problem and it is going to be looked into. that would give the people that have spent that year doing amarr hope. then anti amarr people will *****, and to would be ok. 1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus. 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed. 3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam. 4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs. 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety. 6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc. all those pearls of wisdom has gone totally by the responsible ones at CCP in favour of their own favoured ship they use. the balancing is not balancing at all but just personal preference of the person current in charge of balancing so his preferred race will perform better. it should be quite obvious as when a thread asking for dev responses about caldari or gallente ships get "dev" input after a few posts listing what they are going to improve for them. yet amarr goes 60+ pages now and multiple threads about similar things about amarr gets totally ignored. no communication is bad and has always been bad. either they need to fezz up and say that they will fix it and bring up what their plan of action will be or just say that amarr is fine so ppl can stop training for amarr ships and weapons any further or cancel their accounts. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Angry Sheep
AmarrAur0ra
Posted - 2006.08.15 17:04:00 -
[1818 ]
I read as much as I could - I have covered at least 30 pages here and a lot of things said I never even thought about... My take is that if I am fighting as Amarr with lasers - everyone knows what to defend against EM/Thermal... Other races can change ammo type and thus damage type Does this out weight the fact that I need less ammo than every one else etc? I don't know, but I find it a pain as I actually like being Amarr and having lasers. I kind of would like to turn it on its head with other races having distinct weapon caveats as well. I.e. more of a differentiator between rails, auto-cannons etc other than just turret stats Do I enjoy Amarr? Yes Does it ruin my game? No Do I think it needs a change? Ok yes Change what? - give us more types of ammo damageIt's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.15 17:13:00 -
[1819 ]
Originally by: Angry Sheep My take is that if I am fighting as Amarr with lasers - everyone knows what to defend against EM/Thermal... Other races can change ammo type and thus damage type If you go up against a Megathron it's guaranteed to be Kinetic/Thermal with blasters or rails. The Rokh will be the same. It's just that Kinetic is a preferred damage type to EM for all the reasons listed above.
Warnings
Posted - 2006.08.15 17:15:00 -
[1820 ]
I don't think which add a 3 damage are good ... First lence t2 on the test server have a explosif damage but probably removed because damage output is too high .. Amarr have a good rof, you canno't give 3 or 4 damages but change damage it's may be a solution or increase em/thermal damage on each lence ... I don't know but yes amarr need change and no answer of CCP. It's not good ... It's a good game but with amarr, I'm really not happy. I ask my if CCP balance the game with the number of pilot. High number of amarr pilot = good ship. Low pilot (minmatar), big boost for which the pilot train minmatar. Same thing with caldari (one shoot a freg with a torp, you remember the difference time between large gun = bs and torp/cruise = bs ... How ? 2 years ?) Please, test and give us a answer.
Eurinho
Posted - 2006.08.15 17:17:00 -
[1821 ]
Originally by: Xendie Edited by: Xendie on 15/08/2006 15:51:25 Originally by: Lickity Split i think most people posting keeping this thread going just want a response from devs or anyone at ccp. well you may ask "what would that do"? well if the devs say there is nothing wrong then the people that have spent a year + in specialzation could quit wasting time with amarr and switch. yeah there will be some *****ing but hey that is ok. well lets say devs say there is a problem and it is going to be looked into. that would give the people that have spent that year doing amarr hope. then anti amarr people will *****, and to would be ok. 1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus. 2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed. 3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam. 4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs. 5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety. 6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc. all those pearls of wisdom has gone totally by the responsible ones at CCP in favour of their own favoured ship they use. the balancing is not balancing at all but just personal preference of the person current in charge of balancing so his preferred race will perform better. it should be quite obvious as when a thread asking for dev responses about caldari or gallente ships get "dev" input after a few posts listing what they are going to improve for them. yet amarr goes 60+ pages now and multiple threads about similar things about amarr gets totally ignored. no communication is bad and has always been bad. either they need to fezz up and say that they will fix it and bring up what their plan of action will be or just say that amarr is fine so ppl can stop training for amarr ships and weapons any further or cancel their accounts. [/ Excelent post i think u r right
Montero
Black Omega Security E.R.A
Posted - 2006.08.15 17:54:00 -
[1822 ]
---------Scrapheap Challenge
Dristra
Posted - 2006.08.15 19:04:00 -
[1823 ]
You just made my day!!!
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.15 19:07:00 -
[1824 ]
Is our slogan "Pew pew pew"?
Cyndre Valryssian
Posted - 2006.08.15 19:30:00 -
[1825 ]
Like alot of players in this thread, I've pumped virtually a year and a half into training Amarr solely. Increasing cap skills, getting the top T2 mods and gunnery skills etc etc. My apoc is a fantastic mission runner, it has a great tank and decent firepower. My previous ships all performed admirably as well. But the one problem, the key fault with the Amarr atm is no matter how fantastic my ship performs, I can do the same thing better with another races ship with half the skill points and sometimes a fraction of the module cost. Today I finally stopped training Amarr and started training other races. I love the Amarr ships, I have over a year and a half of solid dedication training nothing but Amarr. There is nothing I'd love more than to see Amarr given the kind of boost to make them feel competitive again but reading this thread, the lack of response and general apathy towards the Amarr I know it isn't going to happen. So chalk up another Caldari player as after all the training and time, the Amarr just don't cut it :(
Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.15 20:55:00 -
[1826 ]
when someone ask me "What do amarr?" I will awnser "pew pew pew" Its really great lol
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.15 21:03:00 -
[1827 ]
This thread is a disgrace for the ship&module forum... really.
Arminius I
AmarrFGC Defence
Posted - 2006.08.15 22:04:00 -
[1828 ]
Originally by: Gariuys This thread is a disgrace for the ship&module forum... really. It is, quite. As far as the "need" for some sort of response I feel. I too am investing heavily skillwise into Armarr ships, weapons and related modules to support that. But the notions here are putting some doubt in to my "choice" of specilisation... We shall see... ArminiusCEO - FGC - Defence http://www.fgc-gaming.com
Auryn Darkblade
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:05:00 -
[1829 ]
62 freaking pages and not one reply by CCP...is there a better place to air our grievances?
Mazar Byrd
AmarrThe Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:24:00 -
[1830 ]
yup ive started training other races and guns got some hybrids on my apoc now 62 pages is a joke
Pepster
Amarr0utbreak
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:24:00 -
[1831 ]
Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed as well. I as well have a year and a half invested into amarr ships, thats all I fly. BUT I won't give up, I'm going to remain true to my role playing desires and will go down with the ship (pun intended)! The apparent prejudice shown to the amarr will only make me more stuborn!!
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:48:00 -
[1832 ]
After my 2 week conversion to from the apoc to the raven for NPC'ing i can happily tell you it's been well worthwhile. I can easily tank ALL level 4's with a XLbooster, amp and 2 hardners. These are missions i often struggled to tank with 2LAR2, 4 hardners. I can now also do consistent damage across all NPC types. Where Angel Extrav (thanks CCP for the 0.0 rats you've now included in this mission) used to be a HUGE pain for an apoc, it is a cakewalk for the raven. I thought, maybe the sansha missions would be a struggle for the raven with high em therm damage, but no, nothing is a challange for this ship. So, does it seem right to anyone else, that after spending a year and a bit on armor and lasers, and TWO WEEKS on shields and missiles, i can pve BETTER with the 2 week option? (yes engineering and electronics skills carry accross but i cant even use t2 shields and all missiles skills are at level 2 or below (apart from basic req's for cruise missiles) So right now the only advice i can really give Amarr PVE'rs is: get a raven
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.08.16 02:09:00 -
[1833 ]
I would really like to see what the devs think amarr are for... What was their intentions behind lasers, at the moment this is how i see the races: Caldari: Ew specialists, combat through "non" DPS effects (in actuality this is debatable since caldari can tank, and DPS quite effectivly)and the long range class (missles and rails+range bonus) Gallente: Drones, and Blasters. Not exclusivly, but basically the gallente are seen as basically a DPS/tank roll, up close and personal. Minmataar: Speed, and flexibility. They are kinda the bastard in the middle in my opinion, having shield/armor tanks, and ships like the cyclone which just need fixing. I think the devs were thinking that the minmataar race were going to fill in as the hit and run tactics kind, making matari a popular choice for pirates, hmm not sure how well this race is faring in this roll. Amarr: No ammo? that isnt a roll, What is it that the devs see as the purpose to fly amarr? What kind of tactics should the amarr pilot prefer. AKA what is amarr's purpose in eve? Right now most of the amarr pilots say they chose the race based on two factors, ammo consumption, and what the ships look like. I started playing eve in an embriotic state, and have focused on amarr for 3 years! Through thick and thin, I have stuck with this race, but we just dont have a purpose anymore. WHY SHOULD ANY NEW PLAYER USE AMARR SHIPS OVER ANYTHING ELSE? that is what i want the devs to answer, ESPECIALLY if they DONT change amarr at all... If it is simply a matter of ammunition that is bull, make our tech 2 crystals last forever i MIGHT consider retracting this statement, but currently our ONLY roll is not even absolute. The way I see things amarr were orrigionally supposed to be the hardest ships to kill, maybe low DPS, and relativly limited fitting options, but we are supposed to have the most resilient ships in the galaxy. WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT? If that is changing then what is it amarr ships are supposed to be? If it is strengh in numbers our ships should be the CHEAPEST! and NOT because supply and demand, based on building cost. I have made my suggestions for fixing amarr, and I do not want to repost them an umteenth time, so I ask at least if someone can tell me what amarr ships do besides pew pew pew. If its DPS (haha funny that is certainly what CCP's graphs seem to suggest, but then again, I dont think they fly amarr that much) it should be BOOM BOOM BOOM, not pew pew pew.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.16 09:02:00 -
[1834 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/08/2006 09:04:42 Originally by: eLLioTT wave After my 2 week conversion to from the apoc to the raven for NPC'ing i can happily tell you it's been well worthwhile. I can easily tank ALL level 4's with a XLbooster, amp and 2 hardners. These are missions i often struggled to tank with 2LAR2, 4 hardners. I can now also do consistent damage across all NPC types. Where Angel Extrav (thanks CCP for the 0.0 rats you've now included in this mission) used to be a HUGE pain for an apoc, it is a cakewalk for the raven. I thought, maybe the sansha missions would be a struggle for the raven with high em therm damage, but no, nothing is a challange for this ship. So, does it seem right to anyone else, that after spending a year and a bit on armor and lasers, and TWO WEEKS on shields and missiles, i can pve BETTER with the 2 week option? (yes engineering and electronics skills carry accross but i cant even use t2 shields and all missiles skills are at level 2 or below (apart from basic req's for cruise missiles) So right now the only advice i can really give Amarr PVE'rs is: get a raven This is 100% Correct. For some time now, when I PvE with my patented Smartbomber apoc lvl4 solo setup, I could instabast most rats and run lvl4's/ 5/10 plex's faster than anything else. I have maxed out just about every taking and tanking support skill, and today I relise what I should have relised a year ago. The Apoc is compleatly outclassed by the raven. The only time where the Apoc is better PvE or PvP is that you can run a smartbomber setup for, say, a drone 5/10 plex to instablast all rats to get to the end. - Guess what? A Raven can solo the boss a hell of a lot easier than the apoc can. If you get ecm'ed, you switch in the FoF Cruise. If you get someone with super high resists, You can switch damagetypes on the fly. Your tank is far far better in a raven than it ever could be in a dual rep apoc, even for fighting sansha's. You also can compleatly ignore turret tracking, which is the biggist cause of missed hits in pvp today. You can spend a million or two in missile skillpoints and have a better damage output than having 6mil+ in gunnery. Today, I am going to start training up shield tanking skills/missile skills. Fear the Curse with all nos and Xlarge booster that can run forever. I will train up Amarr BS lvl5, only because then I can use a Amarr carrier, which can actually chose its damagetype! ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Nifel
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.08.16 09:20:00 -
[1835 ]
Edited by: Nifel on 16/08/2006 09:21:50 OMFG THE RAVEN IS BETTER THAN MY TEMPEST AT NPCING! I DEMAND THE TEMPEST IS MADE BETTER! 7.5% TO ROF AND DAMAGE WOULD DO NICELY KTHXBYE! MY GRANDMA'S CAR SHOULD ALSO BE UPGRADED TO A FERRARI BECAUSE OF THIS GREAT INJUSTICE! Jeez... "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Evelyn Lavi
Posted - 2006.08.16 09:34:00 -
[1836 ]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave After my 2 week conversion to from the apoc to the raven for NPC'ing i can happily tell you it's been well worthwhile. I can easily tank ALL level 4's with a XLbooster, amp and 2 hardners. These are missions i often struggled to tank with 2LAR2, 4 hardners. I can now also do consistent damage across all NPC types. Where Angel Extrav (thanks CCP for the 0.0 rats you've now included in this mission) used to be a HUGE pain for an apoc, it is a cakewalk for the raven. I thought, maybe the sansha missions would be a struggle for the raven with high em therm damage, but no, nothing is a challange for this ship. So, does it seem right to anyone else, that after spending a year and a bit on armor and lasers, and TWO WEEKS on shields and missiles, i can pve BETTER with the 2 week option? (yes engineering and electronics skills carry accross but i cant even use t2 shields and all missiles skills are at level 2 or below (apart from basic req's for cruise missiles) So right now the only advice i can really give Amarr PVE'rs is: get a raven Every time an Amarr pilot converts to another Lego-nightmare Raven jockey, EvE sucks a slight bit more.
Evelyn Lavi
Posted - 2006.08.16 09:35:00 -
[1837 ]
Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 16/08/2006 09:21:50 OMFG THE RAVEN IS BETTER THAN MY TEMPEST AT NPCING! I DEMAND THE TEMPEST IS MADE BETTER! 7.5% TO ROF AND DAMAGE WOULD DO NICELY KTHXBYE! MY GRANDMA'S CAR SHOULD ALSO BE UPGRADED TO A FERRARI BECAUSE OF THIS GREAT INJUSTICE! Jeez... What do Tempests have to do with Amarr ship problems, troll?
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.16 10:10:00 -
[1838 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/08/2006 10:10:46 Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 16/08/2006 09:21:50 OMFG THE RAVEN IS BETTER THAN MY TEMPEST AT NPCING! I DEMAND THE TEMPEST IS MADE BETTER! 7.5% TO ROF AND DAMAGE WOULD DO NICELY KTHXBYE! MY GRANDMA'S CAR SHOULD ALSO BE UPGRADED TO A FERRARI BECAUSE OF THIS GREAT INJUSTICE! Jeez... Erm - We have a thread here, which is showing that for PvP, and even NPC, that Caldari BS's outclass Amarr BS's. Heck, pretty much every BS outclass the Amarr BS's in eve today. I dont see any post in this 63 page thread that says "OMG GIVE AMARR BOOSTORZ!21!". If it is justified, prove it - This thread shows the proof and Justifaction for some sort of boost. If you dont get that, then there is not a lot more that can be said. Perhaps if you paid for a Ferrari and got your gandma's car insted and then complain that your so called "Ferrari" is not perfoming and list the points as to why, then you are justified to make your concearns known. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.16 10:21:00 -
[1839 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron This thread shows the proof and Justifaction for some sort of boost. lol just lol
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.16 10:45:00 -
[1840 ]
Originally by: Gariuys lol just lol An extremly eloquent and convicing counter-argumentation indeed.
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.16 11:02:00 -
[1841 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Gariuys lol just lol An extremly eloquent and convicing counter-argumentation indeed. If I had any hope that you could be convinced, I'd try, well that's also assuming I'd take a day off to do it ofcourse. But I think you're pretty much set in stone in your opinion, you and your brethern in this thread. Besides, it's done to death.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.16 11:21:00 -
[1842 ]
Originally by: Gariuys If I had any hope that you could be convinced, I'd try, well that's also assuming I'd take a day off to do it ofcourse. But I think you're pretty much set in stone in your opinion, you and your brethern in this thread. Besides, it's done to death. Afraid the only opinion set in stone is yours. The amarr core problem is quite simple. Considerably more armortanking ships than shield tanking ships. Even if we ignore the whole medslot utility issues it's about 66% armor, 33% shieldtankers. Simply because we have 2 armortanking races, 1 shieldtanking race and 1 half armor, half shieldtanking one. It's pretty obvious that a race which has no real alternative weapon systems and is generally weak vs armor and strong vs shields has a disadvantage there. Now, pre-RMR this wasn't much of a problem because armor tanking had no viaable all-resistance harderner. So standart setup was 3 active harderners, therm, kin, ecp, resulting in about 60% resistances in all damagetypes. Now, though, with the passive tanking boost an 2 EAN2 + DC setup is *more* effective. Resulting in 80% EM and about 60% in the other resistances. So, please, try to explain how that *isn't* a considerable damage nerf for lasers compare to other weapon systems. Thats a bit harder than "lol". And in case you want to bring up the exp resistance issue for shields with invul field for minnies jim mcgregor style please remember the that we do not have a 50:50 shield:armortanker distribution.
EnEs TaLuNdZiC
Posted - 2006.08.16 13:01:00 -
[1843 ]
Because This Game is made By Chinese Communist Productions , there's only one choice, SHUT UP! The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP! In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion!Game Made By C hinese C ommunist P roductions
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.16 13:04:00 -
[1844 ]
Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC Because This Game is made By Chinese Communist Productions , there's only one choice, SHUT UP! The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP! In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion!Game Made By C hinese C ommunist P roductions Past history dictates that unless an issue is brought to the open, nothing gets done about it. Look at the WCS issue. Look at the ECM issue. If the case is made, and the case is justified, then the devs can either take notice and look into the issue, or be looked at in disgrace. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.16 13:17:00 -
[1845 ]
Edited by: Gariuys on 16/08/2006 13:21:48 Edited by: Gariuys on 16/08/2006 13:20:41 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Gariuys If I had any hope that you could be convinced, I'd try, well that's also assuming I'd take a day off to do it ofcourse. But I think you're pretty much set in stone in your opinion, you and your brethern in this thread. Besides, it's done to death. Afraid the only opinion set in stone is yours. The amarr core problem is quite simple. Considerably more armortanking ships than shield tanking ships. Even if we ignore the whole medslot utility issues it's about 66% armor, 33% shieldtankers. Simply because we have 2 armortanking races, 1 shieldtanking race and 1 half armor, half shieldtanking one. It's pretty obvious that a race which has no real alternative weapon systems and is generally weak vs armor and strong vs shields has a disadvantage there. Now, pre-RMR this wasn't much of a problem because armor tanking had no viaable all-resistance harderner. So standart setup was 3 active harderners, therm, kin, ecp, resulting in about 60% resistances in all damagetypes. Now, though, with the passive tanking boost an 2 EAN2 + DC setup is *more* effective. Resulting in 80% EM and about 60% in the other resistances. So, please, try to explain how that *isn't* a considerable damage nerf for lasers compare to other weapon systems. Thats a bit harder than "lol". And in case you want to bring up the exp resistance issue for shields with invul field for minnies jim mcgregor style please remember the that we do not have a 50:50 shield:armortanker distribution. The shield/armor tanker distribution has a lot to do with the whole gank vs tank problem EVE has, which is the relative uselessness of tanking in general compaired to dealing damage, and it has to do with the relative usefullness of ECM vs tanking ( more specificially shield tanking ) Edit: and it's got a lot to do with what meds are used for in fleets other then ECM ( sensor/tracking boosts. ) And the stacking nerf... not a lot of usefull things that can go into your other low slots besides 3 damage mods at most. It's got **** ALL to do with the Amarr being underpowered.
EnEs TaLuNdZiC
Posted - 2006.08.16 14:19:00 -
[1846 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC Because This Game is made By Chinese Communist Productions , there's only one choice, SHUT UP! The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP! In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion!Game Made By C hinese C ommunist P roductions Past history dictates that unless an issue is brought to the open, nothing gets done about it. Look at the WCS issue. Look at the ECM issue. If the case is made, and the case is justified, then the devs can either take notice and look into the issue, or be looked at in disgrace. I still have to see those changes 2 come! Because ECM and WCS are still overpowered, please, read the linked topics.Game Made By C hinese C ommunist P roductions The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP! In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion!
Nifel
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.08.16 14:33:00 -
[1847 ]
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 16/08/2006 09:21:50 OMFG THE RAVEN IS BETTER THAN MY TEMPEST AT NPCING! I DEMAND THE TEMPEST IS MADE BETTER! 7.5% TO ROF AND DAMAGE WOULD DO NICELY KTHXBYE! MY GRANDMA'S CAR SHOULD ALSO BE UPGRADED TO A FERRARI BECAUSE OF THIS GREAT INJUSTICE! Jeez... What do Tempests have to do with Amarr ship problems, troll? That's the wrong question. You should ask yourself what the Raven has to do with Amarr ship problems (which they're not alone in having btw). That's what was brought up and I honestly felt that in order to truly get it through most people's thick skulls in here how absolutely absurd it is to ask for a boost of Amarr based on the Raven's PvE prowess I just had to ask for a change of bonuses on the Tempest. And a change of car for my grandma... "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.16 14:34:00 -
[1848 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/08/2006 14:35:59 Originally by: Gariuys Edited by: Gariuys on 16/08/2006 13:21:48 Edited by: Gariuys on 16/08/2006 13:20:41 The shield/armor tanker distribution has a lot to do with the whole gank vs tank problem EVE has, which is the relative uselessness of tanking in general compaired to dealing damage, and it has to do with the relative usefullness of ECM vs tanking ( more specificially shield tanking ) Edit: and it's got a lot to do with what meds are used for in fleets other then ECM ( sensor/tracking boosts. ) And the stacking nerf... not a lot of usefull things that can go into your other low slots besides 3 damage mods at most. It's got **** ALL to do with the Amarr being underpowered. You miss the point. All you are rambeling is "It's the fault of ECM", but it isn't. The 66% armor, 33% shieldtank relation is IGNORING the ECM/Medslot issue. It's assuming every ship which is designed for a shield tank does so. i.e. every Typhoon armortanks, every Tempest shieldtanks. THEN we have the 66/33 relation. Right now we have more like 80/20. The medslot issue is intensifying the problem, but it exists quite noticeable even without it. Again: Under *perfect* conditions (med/lowslot issues balanced, if a ship is better for shieldtank it shieldtanks, if a ship is better for armortank it armortanks) we have a 66/33 armor/shieldtank relation. And then you have a race which as a weapon system which is good vs shields and bad vs armor. Do the math. It has *everything* to do with the amarr problems. Because we simply do not have, from the pure, basic ship design, a 50:50 armor/shield distribution. This problem just wasn't there till now because pre-RMR there was no viaable multi-resistance harderner option for armor. Read my previous post beyond the first paragraph.
Nifel
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.08.16 14:38:00 -
[1849 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/08/2006 10:10:46 Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 16/08/2006 09:21:50 OMFG THE RAVEN IS BETTER THAN MY TEMPEST AT NPCING! I DEMAND THE TEMPEST IS MADE BETTER! 7.5% TO ROF AND DAMAGE WOULD DO NICELY KTHXBYE! MY GRANDMA'S CAR SHOULD ALSO BE UPGRADED TO A FERRARI BECAUSE OF THIS GREAT INJUSTICE! Jeez... Erm - We have a thread here, which is showing that for PvP, and even NPC, that Caldari BS's outclass Amarr BS's. Heck, pretty much every BS outclass the Amarr BS's in eve today. I dont see any post in this 63 page thread that says "OMG GIVE AMARR BOOSTORZ!21!". If it is justified, prove it - This thread shows the proof and Justifaction for some sort of boost. If you dont get that, then there is not a lot more that can be said. Perhaps if you paid for a Ferrari and got your gandma's car insted and then complain that your so called "Ferrari" is not perfoming and list the points as to why, then you are justified to make your concearns known. I'll just repeat what Rod Blaine said. Two BoB corps have more than 50% of their pilots piloting Amarr ships the last year if you look at our killboard. That's BNC and EVOL. Now obviously we in BoB are so uber we fly around with inferior ships... "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.16 14:57:00 -
[1850 ]
Originally by: Nifel I'll just repeat what Rod Blaine said. Two BoB corps have more than 50% of their pilots piloting Amarr ships the last year if you look at our killboard. That's BNC and EVOL. Now obviously we in BoB are so uber we fly around with inferior ships... In the last year? Was this before people started using EANMII insted of active hardners? If you look at pretty much any killboard, you will notice the turret ship kills are now starting to get replaced by the arbitrators, curse's, Pilgrims and Projectile Fitted Apocs etc. People still use zealots and gankageddons, and will still get kills. People can use noobships and get kills. But the point of this thread is that Amarr Turret ships damage output has went down due to EANMII's. Or are you saying that the pilots were lucky enough to engage people who have never heard of EANMII + DC? Amarr pilots are getting on with it - Changing their weapons. Those that invested SP's in lasers know that their SP has been devalued. The simple solution is to apply compensation skills to boost active hardners - That way people stop using EANMII's and switch back to Actives. But that is to easy an answer - Insted of a 63page moan from Amarr pilots, you would get a even bigger thread complaining that non-Amarr turret ships are doing less damage. So why dont you give us a solution insted of not saying anything constructive? ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Xendie
Brutor tribe
Posted - 2006.08.16 15:47:00 -
[1851 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron So why dont you give us a solution insted of not saying anything constructive? propably because nifel being bob and all is to uber to read or understand what this thread is about since its not about the raven or tempest or his moms car not being a ferrari. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.16 16:08:00 -
[1852 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/08/2006 16:11:25 Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/08/2006 16:09:59 Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC Because This Game is made By Chinese Communist Productions , there's only one choice, SHUT UP! The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP! In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion!Game Made By C hinese C ommunist P roductions Past history dictates that unless an issue is brought to the open, nothing gets done about it. Look at the WCS issue. Look at the ECM issue. If the case is made, and the case is justified, then the devs can either take notice and look into the issue, or be looked at in disgrace. I still have to see those changes 2 come! Because ECM and WCS are still overpowered, please, read the linked topics.Game Made By C hinese C ommunist P roductions The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP! In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion! Please read what I wrote. I said if the case is made, and the case is justified then the devs should look into the issue. Goodness, how do you expect the devs to be aware of the issue if nobody makes a point of it? Are you telling me that devs are not looking into ECM or WCS even though they have said that they are? Please note "looking into an issue" is not the same as changing it. If its changes you want - Remember the Missile nerf? Remember the Dual MWD nerf? Heck even the stacking nerf. Please - Either post a constructive solution, or troll someware else.... say, the Chinese Eve Forums? ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
OMGROFLBBQ
Posted - 2006.08.16 19:30:00 -
[1853 ]
When i had just trained some gunnery skills on my torax (just enough to fly it and fit hybrids) i managed to own my amarr mate (with about 1 mill skills in gunnery)in his maller, he just tought hybrids where the own, now he has seen the light, and stopped using lasers...
Yazoul Samaiel
CaldariBlack Nova Corp Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.08.16 19:40:00 -
[1854 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Lord WarATron So why dont you give us a solution insted of not saying anything constructive? propably because nifel being bob and all is to uber to read or understand what this thread is about since its not about the raven or tempest or his moms car not being a ferrari. Did u get ur BOB Fanboi club memebrship yet and the complemntary Tinfoil hat or ur still waiting for them ??? So the raven is good in PVP than the apoc and the apoc how every is 10 times better than the raven at long range pvp so lets also nerf the apoc to be also as good as the raven to eventualy we will reach the ONE SHIP TO RULE THEM ALL and ppl will just fly amarr , mmmmkayyyyyyy"What ever that doesn't Kill me just makes me stronger"
Godar Marak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.16 19:44:00 -
[1855 ]
Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Lord WarATron This thread shows the proof and Justifaction for some sort of boost. lol just lol Oh the day this forum gets a 'block user' option.
Death Kill
Caldaridirekte
Posted - 2006.08.16 19:46:00 -
[1856 ]
Originally by: Nifel That's BNC and EVOL. Now obviously we in BoB are so uber we fly around with inferior ships... Yes, because obviously flying Amarr ships in fleet combat represents the overall performance of amarr ships. Get a clue you muppet.For the state for the state for the state
Death Kill
Caldaridirekte
Posted - 2006.08.16 19:48:00 -
[1857 ]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Did u get ur BOB Fanboi club memebrship yet and the complemntary Tinfoil hat or ur still waiting for them ??? Who gives a crap? BOB = aids. For the state for the state for the state
Stephar
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.08.16 20:10:00 -
[1858 ]
Originally by: Nifel I'll just repeat what Rod Blaine said. Two BoB corps have more than 50% of their pilots piloting Amarr ships the last year if you look at our killboard. That's BNC and EVOL. Now obviously we in BoB are so uber we fly around with inferior ships... Rod flies Gallente , and you fly Minmatar . If Amarr is so great, why don't you use them in PvP?
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.16 20:17:00 -
[1859 ]
They have "alts", but are somehow unable to post with them. Probably unable to remember their names since it have been 4 months since they logged on them last time.
Zaethiel
Posted - 2006.08.16 20:27:00 -
[1860 ]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Did u get ur BOB Fanboi club memebrship yet and the complemntary Tinfoil hat or ur still waiting for them ??? So the raven is good in PVP than the apoc and the apoc how every is 10 times better than the raven at long range pvp so lets also nerf the apoc to be also as good as the raven to eventualy we will reach the ONE SHIP TO RULE THEM ALL and ppl will just fly amarr , mmmmkayyyyyyy You should think before you speak. The Raven is better at PvP than the Apoc. True. The Apoc is better at Fleet (long range) than the Raven. True. The Rohk will be the best Fleet BS. Probably. The Abbadon is all messed up since it'll take 2 cap injectors to fight with. Hope not. You can compare the Raven to the Apoc in fleet all you want but the Raven is not a Fleet ship. CCP is giving caldari a Fleet ship. So now Caldari will have the best long range BS. The only EW BS. The BS with one of the best DPS. Amarr has the best tanking BS as long as it doesn't shoot... One of the best close range ships, which uses Autocannons. And a BS that can tank or gank and to gank it needs an alt in a hauler to supply cap boosters and to tank it won't be able to shoot.
Yazoul Samaiel
CaldariBlack Nova Corp Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.08.16 22:01:00 -
[1861 ]
Originally by: Zaethiel Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Did u get ur BOB Fanboi club memebrship yet and the complemntary Tinfoil hat or ur still waiting for them ??? So the raven is good in PVP than the apoc and the apoc how every is 10 times better than the raven at long range pvp so lets also nerf the apoc to be also as good as the raven to eventualy we will reach the ONE SHIP TO RULE THEM ALL and ppl will just fly amarr , mmmmkayyyyyyy You should think before you speak. The Raven is better at PvP than the Apoc. True. The Apoc is better at Fleet (long range) than the Raven. True. The Rohk will be the best Fleet BS. Probably. The Abbadon is all messed up since it'll take 2 cap injectors to fight with. Hope not. You can compare the Raven to the Apoc in fleet all you want but the Raven is not a Fleet ship. CCP is giving caldari a Fleet ship. So now Caldari will have the best long range BS. The only EW BS. The BS with one of the best DPS. Amarr has the best tanking BS as long as it doesn't shoot... One of the best close range ships, which uses Autocannons. And a BS that can tank or gank and to gank it needs an alt in a hauler to supply cap boosters and to tank it won't be able to shoot. When the Rohk and abaddon come out to production server u can start arguing but untill then ur argument is just based on speculation and non finalialised stats. "The Raven is better at PvP than the Apoc. True. " You should realy get a clue before u post !!!!"What ever that doesn't Kill me just makes me stronger"
Yazoul Samaiel
CaldariBlack Nova Corp Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.08.16 22:03:00 -
[1862 ]
Originally by: Aramendel They have "alts", but are somehow unable to post with them. Probably unable to remember their names since it have been 4 months since they logged on them last time. the only thing that wont be remembered will be trolls and lame alts like u and the alt who posted b4 ya . "What ever that doesn't Kill me just makes me stronger"
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.08.16 22:07:00 -
[1863 ]
Originally by: Gariuys Edited by: Gariuys on 16/08/2006 13:21:48 Edited by: Gariuys on 16/08/2006 13:20:41 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Gariuys If I had any hope that you could be convinced, I'd try, well that's also assuming I'd take a day off to do it ofcourse. But I think you're pretty much set in stone in your opinion, you and your brethern in this thread. Besides, it's done to death. Afraid the only opinion set in stone is yours. The amarr core problem is quite simple. Considerably more armortanking ships than shield tanking ships. Even if we ignore the whole medslot utility issues it's about 66% armor, 33% shieldtankers. Simply because we have 2 armortanking races, 1 shieldtanking race and 1 half armor, half shieldtanking one. It's pretty obvious that a race which has no real alternative weapon systems and is generally weak vs armor and strong vs shields has a disadvantage there. Now, pre-RMR this wasn't much of a problem because armor tanking had no viaable all-resistance harderner. So standart setup was 3 active harderners, therm, kin, ecp, resulting in about 60% resistances in all damagetypes. Now, though, with the passive tanking boost an 2 EAN2 + DC setup is *more* effective. Resulting in 80% EM and about 60% in the other resistances. So, please, try to explain how that *isn't* a considerable damage nerf for lasers compare to other weapon systems. Thats a bit harder than "lol". And in case you want to bring up the exp resistance issue for shields with invul field for minnies jim mcgregor style please remember the that we do not have a 50:50 shield:armortanker distribution. The shield/armor tanker distribution has a lot to do with the whole gank vs tank problem EVE has, which is the relative uselessness of tanking in general compaired to dealing damage, and it has to do with the relative usefullness of ECM vs tanking ( more specificially shield tanking ) Edit: and it's got a lot to do with what meds are used for in fleets other then ECM ( sensor/tracking boosts. ) And the stacking nerf... not a lot of usefull things that can go into your other low slots besides 3 damage mods at most. It's got **** ALL to do with the Amarr being underpowered. well the issues you just called make amarr underpowered, it's not a deimos problem like we can't fit our ship or something, they're just useless
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.08.16 22:12:00 -
[1864 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Nifel I'll just repeat what Rod Blaine said. Two BoB corps have more than 50% of their pilots piloting Amarr ships the last year if you look at our killboard. That's BNC and EVOL. Now obviously we in BoB are so uber we fly around with inferior ships... In the last year? Was this before people started using EANMII insted of active hardners? If you look at pretty much any killboard, you will notice the turret ship kills are now starting to get replaced by the arbitrators, curse's, Pilgrims and Projectile Fitted Apocs etc. People still use zealots and gankageddons, and will still get kills. People can use noobships and get kills. But the point of this thread is that Amarr Turret ships damage output has went down due to EANMII's. Or are you saying that the pilots were lucky enough to engage people who have never heard of EANMII + DC? Amarr pilots are getting on with it - Changing their weapons. Those that invested SP's in lasers know that their SP has been devalued. The simple solution is to apply compensation skills to boost active hardners - That way people stop using EANMII's and switch back to Actives. But that is to easy an answer - Insted of a 63page moan from Amarr pilots, you would get a even bigger thread complaining that non-Amarr turret ships are doing less damage. So why dont you give us a solution insted of not saying anything constructive? this won't help he problem, you'd get hardeners that with skills give 80% resistance, this would overpower amarr since it'd be the only race that could still do damage
Zaethiel
Posted - 2006.08.16 22:16:00 -
[1865 ]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel "The Raven is better at PvP than the Apoc. True. " You should realy get a clue before u post !!!! The clue i got was from the 60+ pages of this thread that Amarr are underpowered. Poor english is one thing but making stupid remarks in a constructive thread is another. Go back to killing Goons unless you have something constructive to add to this thread. True until the tier 3 BS's come out i can't say that, but from the info the Devs have released it shows that they are trying to give caldari a Fleet combat ship, whereas Amarr they don't seem to be giving anything to Amarr's already underpowered ships.
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross
Posted - 2006.08.16 22:18:00 -
[1866 ]
omg its still going... sweet \o/ hey mom i'm on page 63 ! Maybe if amarr didn't have slaves, they would have better weapons. God did this to you, not the devs (seriously, feel pity for them, fix lasers, is it really gonna hurt to give em an expl crystal?) but the abaddon is gonna be a hell of a sniper. prob only thing able to stand toe to toe w/ the ruhk? i dunno, haven't flown either yet :-/ but atleast ya got that goin for ya in the sky! is that the troll signal? AWAY!....
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.16 23:09:00 -
[1867 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/08/2006 23:12:19 Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Nifel I'll just repeat what Rod Blaine said. Two BoB corps have more than 50% of their pilots piloting Amarr ships the last year if you look at our killboard. That's BNC and EVOL. Now obviously we in BoB are so uber we fly around with inferior ships... In the last year? Was this before people started using EANMII insted of active hardners? If you look at pretty much any killboard, you will notice the turret ship kills are now starting to get replaced by the arbitrators, curse's, Pilgrims and Projectile Fitted Apocs etc. People still use zealots and gankageddons, and will still get kills. People can use noobships and get kills. But the point of this thread is that Amarr Turret ships damage output has went down due to EANMII's. Or are you saying that the pilots were lucky enough to engage people who have never heard of EANMII + DC? Amarr pilots are getting on with it - Changing their weapons. Those that invested SP's in lasers know that their SP has been devalued. The simple solution is to apply compensation skills to boost active hardners - That way people stop using EANMII's and switch back to Actives. But that is to easy an answer - Insted of a 63page moan from Amarr pilots, you would get a even bigger thread complaining that non-Amarr turret ships are doing less damage. So why dont you give us a solution insted of not saying anything constructive? this won't help he problem, you'd get hardeners that with skills give 80% resistance, this would overpower amarr since it'd be the only race that could still do damage If you read my comment which states "Insted of a 63page moan from Amarr pilots, you would get a even bigger thread complaining that non-Amarr turret ships are doing less damage. ", you will see that any changes will transfer the problem insted of solving it. The answer is to give Amarr a proper ship it can use in battles to get arround the current issues - Make the Abaddon a 8 Launcher ship with 10% EM Damage bonus, so that it is effectivly 12 launcher worth of torps that come flying at you, which removes the EANMII/DC argument and makes EMP a dangerus damagetype from a specilised ship. And if you fit 8 torp launchers, you will have no cpu for tank or even ballistics, so the raven does not lose its place either. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.08.16 23:13:00 -
[1868 ]
meh if you wanna go radical, make it an 8 launcher, 10% rof per lvl, 8 lows 6 meds, 2500 CPU omg amarr have something that's overpowered, i can't believe my eyes
Zaethiel
Posted - 2006.08.17 00:32:00 -
[1869 ]
Even if the Abbadon becoems the uber torp boat of the game people will still complain about how lasers are underpowered. CCP if you give Amarr a torp boat please announce it a month before kali at least because people will want to be able to use when it comes out. 10 Missile Launcher Operation skills trained, for a total of 375,585 skillPoints.
Yazoul Samaiel
CaldariBlack Nova Corp Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.08.17 02:18:00 -
[1870 ]
Originally by: Zaethiel Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel "The Raven is better at PvP than the Apoc. True. " You should realy get a clue before u post !!!! The clue i got was from the 60+ pages of this thread that Amarr are underpowered. Poor english is one thing but making stupid remarks in a constructive thread is another. Go back to killing Goons unless you have something constructive to add to this thread. True until the tier 3 BS's come out i can't say that, but from the info the Devs have released it shows that they are trying to give caldari a Fleet combat ship, whereas Amarr they don't seem to be giving anything to Amarr's already underpowered ships. Mmm making fun of my poor english just shows how mature u r sicne i am not a native speacker but anywhooo the only stupid stuff is what ur saying , i am able to fit my ships properly and utilize my skills and setups accordign to race strenghts and weaknesses and i am killign tons of enemies u on the other side jus go whine whine whine sicne u cant even setup ur stuff properly and just want CCP to make u a perfect ship. How many ppl have u killed with amarr ships as in comparison to caldari ships and what skilsl u have etc etc etc too many stuff needs to be answered but i aitn gonna bother sicne i am pretty sure of most of the answers so go back to dream about the perfect amarr ship that will pwn every thing coz it aitn gonan happen."What ever that doesn't Kill me just makes me stronger"
Zaethiel
Posted - 2006.08.17 03:03:00 -
[1871 ]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Mmm making fun of my poor english just shows how mature u r sicne i am not a native speacker but anywhooo the only stupid stuff is what ur saying , i am able to fit my ships properly and utilize my skills and setups accordign to race strenghts and weaknesses and i am killign tons of enemies u on the other side jus go whine whine whine sicne u cant even setup ur stuff properly and just want CCP to make u a perfect ship. How many ppl have u killed with amarr ships as in comparison to caldari ships and what skilsl u have etc etc etc too many stuff needs to be answered but i aitn gonna bother sicne i am pretty sure of most of the answers so go back to dream about the perfect amarr ship that will pwn every thing coz it aitn gonan happen. For one, i said i didn't mind poor english. I said i hated people making irrelevent comments. Heres a quote from a corresxponding thread. Originally by: ParMizaN Originally by: Eelim Garak Hi, i am 6 month old, specialized in amarr, and this thread is patethic! I am a Pirate, as said i fly amarr ships, and i dont have a problem killing people, that includes 2 year old PvPer's (Pirates/Anti-Pirates) as well as the common mining noob. FFS Guys, just train up your fitting skills, learn how to fitt a ship, and do it, maybe amarr ships need a little more brain activity to fitt, and if you cant provide it no bonus or weaponsystem overhaul will help you there. And stop whining you cant kill a Vagabond with an Omen/Maller, try a Zealot. If you loose a ship, try to consider that it was not your ships fault, but your own. Greetings Eelim Well, that was a very blind post. This is about balance, not being able to kill things. Normally when you shoot somebody else somebody has a really big advantage but when a skilled pvper in a apoc with a tank on comes up against a killed mega pilot with a EANII and DC tank then the apoc is screwed unless some sort of ECM variable is there, if you assume their equipment and skills are pracically the same. I've been specialised in amarr over 2 years and yes the have done me quite well but i do find im firing peanuts now and again when shoot somebody with that sort of tank on. Fortunately when I have come across that I've been in a gang. I KNOW how to fit my ships, currently there is not much amarr users can do versus those resistances when the high EM damage on lasers is resisted. The problem didnt exist pre-DC and EAN boost. Being able to go and kill 1 month old ferox pilots and shuttles doesn't mean Amarr ships are balanced. As he said. its not about whether or not you can kill people with an Amarr ship its about whether or not Amarr are balanced. I bet i could take my 6 mil SP Gallente charecter with a lvl 3 in BS with a Mega and kill a Geddon with tech 2 Lasers as long as he is within my optimal. My 6 mil SP Gallente charecter 500k in guns and 500k in drones was able to kill a fully tech 2 stabber (tech 1 ammo) and killed several Omens, Ruptures, Stabbers, Mallers, Caracals, Moas, Ferox. Also Amarr Recons don't have a place in this thread since most don't use Lasers. No one is saying Amarr are useless they are saying they aren't balanced in that they have the majority of the worst ships in Eve.
mishkof
CaldariEmerald Empire
Posted - 2006.08.17 03:50:00 -
[1872 ]
Originally by: tookar I fly amarr and have reasonable skills . In my experience most amarr ships (i dont fly hacs) are in a losing situation in almost any combat except fleet combat vs a same skilled player . The fact that we are predominantly mid ranged is crap as NO combat takes place at this range , our tanking is not the best anymore and even so gank>tank in almost all circumstances . My caldari alt has 2mil less sp than me and pwns tookar in any standard setup . nuff said! I am sorry. I have read most of these threads and I only post because so many of the arguments are just naming off ships that "are crap". The above post is a perfect example of the statements on here. What is a standard setup? Seriously? I at least respect the arguments that I have seen that have "theory" behind them. Of course this is all armchair general stuff. Amarr ships destroy my ravens and soon to be rohks shield tank so I dont want to hear it. The only way I can avoid it is by setup specifically for EM tanking which of course will gimp me in something else....guess what that is called balance. I have become somewhat convinced on the fitting issue, however with ECM about to be nerfed the rest is just pointless whining IMO.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.17 04:22:00 -
[1873 ]
Originally by: mishkof Originally by: tookar I fly amarr and have reasonable skills . In my experience most amarr ships (i dont fly hacs) are in a losing situation in almost any combat except fleet combat vs a same skilled player . The fact that we are predominantly mid ranged is crap as NO combat takes place at this range , our tanking is not the best anymore and even so gank>tank in almost all circumstances . My caldari alt has 2mil less sp than me and pwns tookar in any standard setup . nuff said! I am sorry. I have read most of these threads and I only post because so many of the arguments are just naming off ships that "are crap". The above post is a perfect example of the statements on here. What is a standard setup? Seriously? I at least respect the arguments that I have seen that have "theory" behind them. Of course this is all armchair general stuff. Amarr ships destroy my ravens and soon to be rohks shield tank so I dont want to hear it. The only way I can avoid it is by setup specifically for EM tanking which of course will gimp me in something else....guess what that is called balance. I have become somewhat convinced on the fitting issue, however with ECM about to be nerfed the rest is just pointless whining IMO. Standard pvp tanking setups: Armor: EANIIx2+1 Damage Control + repper. 2 reppers if you go crazy. Shield: Invuln Field T2x2+ EM active hardener+ Shield booster. Amp if you go crazy, DC down low if you are smart. These are standard minimums if you are going to tank at all. Why are they standard? Because they give the most defense for the least slots invested with the best resists using the lowest fittings. Yes, nubs can't use all this. But we don't balance for nubs, we balance for max skills because eventually everyone will have them. You can have more tanking mods than this, but in general you are better served using damage mods. Ironically, EM is the highest, or in the top 2 highest resists for both setups. The 0 EM resist on shields means that any shieldtank with half a brain will fill in the hole in the resists with an active. The result is that any pvp shieldtank (an oxymoron with ECM prevalance atm) has just as much resists as armor. There are only 2 ways to fix this imho. 1 - Change base armor resist to 40%, Shield to 20%. This seems rather extreme to me. 2 - Push individual hardening again. Nerf EAN II's and make passive T2's reach 50% resists with armor comp skills. Doesn't hurt those who trained armor comp skills, encourages individual hardening and makes lows more valuable. Makes a lot more sense to me. Ah, yes there is one more option. Boost EAN's so that all resists are @ 80% with 3 of them. That would make all damage types equal, but doesn't seem very balanced to me as 80% resists on ships is just too much. And I know from personal experience. I shoot at people with 80% resists every day, and have since RMR. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.08.17 05:28:00 -
[1874 ]
I learned two things today, one is that nifel doesnt fly amarr ships. If amarr are so uber why do you fly raven and tempest? second, we all know how much BoB likes a fair fight :P I guess there are strength in numbers, that is why i call your alliance B(l)oB. The problem with amarr ships is larger then just a battleship here and and apoc vs raven. Its a matter of our ships have become outdated by the last few patches. Ships that USED to work now dont, and it is NOT because blasters got easier to fit on a mega either. We should not have to suffer such severe consequences just because we dont use ammunition. Which isnt even the case with tech 2 ammo, so what the hell is the point in flying amarr? If anyone who bashes this thread can give me ONE reason to fly amarr (as a race not a spacific ship like the curse) I will repeal all my previous statements, and ammo consumption/ ship graphics are not REAL reasons, especially since BOTH are not absolutes. Tell me ONE thing amarr do better then any other race just ONE... that is all i ask.
Saria Mysdrial
AmarrResearch Associates
Posted - 2006.08.17 05:35:00 -
[1875 ]
Originally by: DrEiak Tell me ONE thing amarr do better then any other race just ONE... that is all i ask. Beat Slaves?
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.17 08:22:00 -
[1876 ]
Originally by: Saria Mysdrial Originally by: DrEiak Tell me ONE thing amarr do better then any other race just ONE... that is all i ask. Beat Slaves? With my 90k in missiles and a half assed shield tank on my curse (its only been a day or two of myself training shield skills), I am now more dangerous than my maxed tanking + good gunnery skills Apoc or geddon. Once I can use t2 gear to shield tank my curse, supported by its nos bonus of course, I imagine that there is no reason to ever use the apoc unless I am using my sustainable 23/7 8MDCMII 0.0 Armour tank or 0.0 shield tank setup for mining (The Sustainable 8MDCMII/Miner II Shield tank setup gives you 3 spare low slots for wcs or pdu's or whatever). So other that the Amarr Battleships being reduced to uber miners, I think most people would be better off training for shield/missile skills. This is what Slave labour has given us........ ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Ling Xiao
Posted - 2006.08.17 09:22:00 -
[1877 ]
Hmm I still have no face, and you still have no dev response. The challenge is still on!
Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.17 10:49:00 -
[1878 ]
Quote: Hellspawn01 > I want an explosive crystal Hellspawn01 > or EM hybrid ammo Ratzap > I want an 18 year old nympho sex slave but I don't think either of us will be happy anytime soonShip lovers click here
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.17 12:49:00 -
[1879 ]
bump ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.17 12:49:00 -
[1880 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 17/08/2006 12:49:46 Originally by: Ling Xiao Hmm I still have no face, and you still have no dev response. The challenge is still on! We can only hope that a dev will look into these issues. As it stands, there is no point in training amarr unless you want a 8 Miner II Machine. With that said, all the other races are getting a 8 turret ship so that point is also moot. I guess if you have good drone skills, then the Arbitrator, Pilgrim and Curse are the only ships worth spending time over. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Lone Eagle
Penumbra Squadron Center for Disease Creation
Posted - 2006.08.17 12:57:00 -
[1881 ]
Originally by: DrEiak Tell me ONE thing amarr do better then any other race just ONE... that is all i ask. Symmetry
Wulfgard
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.17 13:56:00 -
[1882 ]
I can fly both Amarr and Caldari BS, both have a different roles to play. For the amarr, only the Apoc is subpar imo, the geddon is still a great dps ship and a cheap one. People whining about Raven being useless in pvp really need to fly in a gang w/ a t2 torp raven and see the mix of dps, tanking and setup flexibility this ship has to offer. Right it sucks for snipping fleet battle but excels in some many others areas. I wish my apoc was half as useful in pvp Amarr BS need more flexibility (lack of mid slots, lack of dmg types).
Juntz
Posted - 2006.08.17 18:40:00 -
[1883 ]
TTT
Ju'Co
Eve Defence Force
Posted - 2006.08.17 21:50:00 -
[1884 ]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Mmm making fun of my poor english just shows how mature u r sicne i am not a native speacker but anywhooo the only stupid stuff is what ur saying , i am able to fit my ships properly and utilize my skills and setups accordign to race strenghts and weaknesses and i am killign tons of enemies u on the other side jus go whine whine whine sicne u cant even setup ur stuff properly and just want CCP to make u a perfect ship. How many ppl have u killed with amarr ships as in comparison to caldari ships and what skilsl u have etc etc etc too many stuff needs to be answered but i aitn gonna bother sicne i am pretty sure of most of the answers so go back to dream about the perfect amarr ship that will pwn every thing coz it aitn gonan happen. Yarr, if your country has a McDonalds, you argument holds no special sauce with me. Wee im a Zeebra. Muchkins oy, muchkins. Sorry about that, I thought we were supposed to randomly quote someones post and disagree with them yet make no sence while doing it and agrue no point at all. /me is a bandwagon jumper
Dristra
Posted - 2006.08.17 22:48:00 -
[1885 ]
We need a new, serious amarr tread...
Zaethiel
Posted - 2006.08.18 02:11:00 -
[1886 ]
The thread was serious for the longest time, but CCP has not responded to one of if not the longest thread on the boards. Seems like ever one has beaten their point to death and without a response from CCP what else can be said. I think everyone just ran out of things to say or have given up on the cause. At least all the pointless posts are keeping the thread on the front page.
Iota Belisarius
Procurare Novus Ordos Seclorum
Posted - 2006.08.18 02:25:00 -
[1887 ]
Originally by: Zaethiel ...and without a response from CCP what else can be said. Bacon sammiches. Originally by: Zaethiel At least all the pointless posts are keeping the thread on the front page. Hey someone's got to do it ---------------------
Lolita Humbert
CaldariCopasetic Joint Special Task Force
Posted - 2006.08.18 05:21:00 -
[1888 ]
Originally by: DrEiak I learned two things today, one is that nifel doesnt fly amarr ships. If amarr are so uber why do you fly raven and tempest? second, we all know how much BoB likes a fair fight :P I guess there are strength in numbers, that is why i call your alliance B(l)oB. The problem with amarr ships is larger then just a battleship here and and apoc vs raven. Its a matter of our ships have become outdated by the last few patches. Ships that USED to work now dont, and it is NOT because blasters got easier to fit on a mega either. We should not have to suffer such severe consequences just because we dont use ammunition. Which isnt even the case with tech 2 ammo, so what the hell is the point in flying amarr? If anyone who bashes this thread can give me ONE reason to fly amarr (as a race not a spacific ship like the curse) I will repeal all my previous statements, and ammo consumption/ ship graphics are not REAL reasons, especially since BOTH are not absolutes. Tell me ONE thing amarr do better then any other race just ONE... that is all i ask. The big problem is that the things amarr is supposed to be better at, amarr simply is no longer the best at. Amarr is supposed to be able to tank better than the other races, but it simply cant run the best tank anymore without putting projectiles on. The geddon is supposed to be a good gank ship, but it can hardly do that when everything it goes up against knows exactly what damage types to tank. Amarr needs to be good at something, i mean really good at something again, otherwise they will be cursed to mediocrity forever. Monkeyfingers: 15 year old space hooker Monkeyfingers: awesome.
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
Posted - 2006.08.18 05:25:00 -
[1889 ]
Originally by: Lone Eagle Originally by: DrEiak Tell me ONE thing amarr do better then any other race just ONE... that is all i ask. Symmetry True, but not exactly useful ingame.
Lolita Humbert
CaldariCopasetic Joint Special Task Force
Posted - 2006.08.18 05:28:00 -
[1890 ]
Originally by: Madcat Adams Originally by: Lone Eagle Originally by: DrEiak Tell me ONE thing amarr do better then any other race just ONE... that is all i ask. Symmetry True, but not exactly useful ingame. Unless they added ramming damage! I think im on to something, instead of boosting lasers or anything, just add ramming damage, and since amarr ships are all symmetrical/sturdy/phalic, they would naturally get the best ramming damage. FINALLY a solution to the amarr imbalance. Monkeyfingers: 15 year old space hooker Monkeyfingers: awesome.
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.08.18 05:48:00 -
[1891 ]
I have run out of things to say, so I will just quote myself; "Tell me ONE thing that amarr do better then any other race" Oh and I did specify not graphically and not ammunition related (which is bull because amarr now use ammo too, and quite possibly the most expensive ammo in the game.)
Lone Eagle
Penumbra Squadron Center for Disease Creation
Posted - 2006.08.18 11:41:00 -
[1892 ]
Originally by: DrEiak Oh and I did specify not graphically You're right, you did. I completely missed that line while trying to catch up with this thread. However, it does emphasize your point when the only definate answer to your question had to deal with graphics.
Ethidium Bromide
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.18 11:49:00 -
[1893 ]
64 pages... must be the longest whining thread ever but yeah would be nice if there was a 3rd dmg type _________________________________ just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean i'm not following!
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.18 11:55:00 -
[1894 ]
I think the minnie one was 75 pages.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.18 12:08:00 -
[1895 ]
Originally by: DrEiak I have run out of things to say, so I will just quote myself; "Tell me ONE thing that amarr do better then any other race" Oh and I did specify not graphically and not ammunition related (which is bull because amarr now use ammo too, and quite possibly the most expensive ammo in the game.) The amarr can fit more stabs in their battleships than anyone else. :) ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.08.18 12:12:00 -
[1896 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 18/08/2006 12:16:43 Originally by: Zaethiel Being able to go and kill 1 month old ferox pilots and shuttles doesn't mean Amarr ships are balanced. As he said. its not about whether or not you can kill people with an Amarr ship its about whether or not Amarr are balanced. I bet i could take my 6 mil SP Gallente charecter with a lvl 3 in BS with a Mega and kill a Geddon with tech 2 Lasers as long as he is within my optimal. My 6 mil SP Gallente charecter 500k in guns and 500k in drones was able to kill a fully tech 2 stabber (tech 1 ammo) and killed several Omens, Ruptures, Stabbers, Mallers, Caracals, Moas, Ferox. Also Amarr Recons don't have a place in this thread since most don't use Lasers. No one is saying Amarr are useless they are saying they aren't balanced in that they have the majority of the worst ships in Eve. Dont even try to argue or convince people that gallente is a easy race to fly and you need low sp for it. Serieusly...DONT, because i started training gallente a looong time ago and now im reaping the rewards, while instead i could also pick the easy race like ammar (at that time). Your argument of geddon vs mega...Well that mega pilote with 6 mil SP will get his arse handed to him. Tech 2 megapulse and max specced will *****that 6 mil, crap navigation, crap damage, crap tank, crap clue on how to get in range pilote in seconds... Btw you say my 500k gunnery and 500k drone gallente char could pwn a lot of cruiser? You didnt mention what you were flying... Besides make a caldari char, put 2 mil into missiles (better atributes means you train faster aswell) and than use a dualextended caracal with heavy 2, result you will probably kill all. Besides currently its: -Rupture -Caracal -Vexor -Thorax -Maller (tankingpower) _________________________________________________
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.08.18 14:10:00 -
[1897 ]
After 75pages didnt the devs respond? i guess we need to add 11 more pages to get a response from the devs. amarr dont need a torp boat, they need a drone bs. that would break the painful cycle amarr is in where all the ships have the same layout. if they are stuck on a 8 turret or 8 launcher bs then make the teir 2 bc a drone boat. give us some mids slots on a ship and make med guns easier to fit. i admit the amarr have a few good pvp ships, the geddon if fine, the zealot is ok, the curse and pilgrim are fine, and the absolution other than the problem that all bc have with agility and sig radius is fine. but the apoc is not worth anything other than being a poor mans mining barge, or a npc ship at best. the maller, omen, augor, any frig other than the punisher are all crap. sac is better than it was but is still garbage, the interceptors are awful unless you are afk flying though empire. the ass frigs leave alot to be desired. amarr is the ship that pirates love to fly up against and gank, they are easy to tank, smaller drone bays, and no ew make amarr easy targets. ccp wanted people to specialize so people have. ccp owes the amarr pilots for boosting every race while nerfing amarr. i agree in the begining of eve amarr was the race to be, but alot has changed in 3 and half years. the amarr bonus to cap reduction is not a bounus, amarr pilots are going up against ships that have two bonuses, and yes i know minmatar pilots say well without the rof bonus there guns would not work, yes they would, it would not shut your ship down shooting your guns as that bonus not on the ships would do to amarr. as for the ammo thing, i would gladly change ammo reloading over only having 2 damage types, slow ships, no ew, and small drone bays. this is a player from the being of eve asking ccp to give a response to the amarr pilots. will i quit eve if they dont fix amarr? no. i just want a response so i know which direction to go in. if amarr dont get a fix in pvp i will have to move to another race or just accept flying a weaker race and keep this thread going to annoy all the amarr haters and start new threads till our problem is answered. either way this wont be the last post or thread on this issue.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.18 14:39:00 -
[1898 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 18/08/2006 14:40:17 Originally by: madaluap -Maller (tankingpower) Well..the tankingpower of the maller is really only useful if you need a bait. For regular PvP you can savely leave it as last target since it's dps is pretty much nonexistant. Unless you use it as ECM boat, that is. Originally by: Martinez OMG textblock Paragraphs. Please. A textblock is horribly to read and as result most people don't.
Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.18 14:48:00 -
[1899 ]
Originally by: Martinez After 75pages didnt the devs respond? i guess we need to add 11 more pages to get a response from the devs. amarr dont need a torp boat, they need a drone bs. that would break the painful cycle amarr is in where all the ships have the same layout. if they are stuck on a 8 turret or 8 launcher bs then make the teir 2 bc a drone boat. give us some mids slots on a ship and make med guns easier to fit. i admit the amarr have a few good pvp ships, the geddon if fine, the zealot is ok, the curse and pilgrim are fine, and the absolution other than the problem that all bc have with agility and sig radius is fine. but the apoc is not worth anything other than being a poor mans mining barge, or a npc ship at best. the maller, omen, augor, any frig other than the punisher are all crap. sac is better than it was but is still garbage, the interceptors are awful unless you are afk flying though empire. the ass frigs leave alot to be desired. amarr is the ship that pirates love to fly up against and gank, they are easy to tank, smaller drone bays, and no ew make amarr easy targets. ccp wanted people to specialize so people have. ccp owes the amarr pilots for boosting every race while nerfing amarr. i agree in the begining of eve amarr was the race to be, but alot has changed in 3 and half years. the amarr bonus to cap reduction is not a bounus, amarr pilots are going up against ships that have two bonuses, and yes i know minmatar pilots say well without the rof bonus there guns would not work, yes they would, it would not shut your ship down shooting your guns as that bonus not on the ships would do to amarr. as for the ammo thing, i would gladly change ammo reloading over only having 2 damage types, slow ships, no ew, and small drone bays. this is a player from the being of eve asking ccp to give a response to the amarr pilots. will i quit eve if they dont fix amarr? no. i just want a response so i know which direction to go in. if amarr dont get a fix in pvp i will have to move to another race or just accept flying a weaker race and keep this thread going to annoy all the amarr haters and start new threads till our problem is answered. either way this wont be the last post or thread on this issue. Hope it helps abit Ship lovers click here
Borasao
Posted - 2006.08.18 14:50:00 -
[1900 ]
Edited by: Borasao on 18/08/2006 14:50:33 Yup, much better :)
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.08.18 14:51:00 -
[1901 ]
sorry about the typing while at work dealing with customers. good to know the english teachers are out in full force today. do i get a F? yes bad spelling, grammer, etc.
Borasao
Posted - 2006.08.18 14:56:00 -
[1902 ]
Originally by: Martinez sorry about the typing while at work dealing with customers. good to know the english teachers are out in full force today. do i get a F? yes bad spelling, grammer, etc. Heh, spelling and grammar I can forgive easily (especially with non-native English speakers) (except in the case of AOL-speak trash). Massive text blobs are just nearly impossible to read, even if the writer has perfect spelling and grammar.
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.08.18 14:59:00 -
[1903 ]
well what ever it takes, if me doing that made it where this thread makes it to 75 and gets a response so be it. we an turn this into a grammer, spelling or forum writing class for all i care as long as the problem is solved.
Captin Biltmore
AmarrDamage Unlimited Inc Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.18 14:59:00 -
[1904 ]
This is pulled from the Demios Thread: Originally by: Tuxford Wow long thread. If it makes you feel any better then I've noticed it and I'll look into it. That's really all we are looking for here. But since we don't have it I assume one of two things: 1. They haven't noticed: Impossible....flat impossible. 2. They AREN'T looking into it: CCP has a lot on their plate right now with the Dragon, Kali, Contracts, etc... They have made commitments to fix/deploy these things. My thoughts: It's not going to be an easy/simple fix to bring Amarr back inline, this is going to require a lot of Dev Time and they can't spare that right now. However, confirmation of this from a Dev would be all it would take to kill this thread...... Assasin For Hire - Contact in game
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2006.08.18 15:09:00 -
[1905 ]
i am completly fine with that and understand the the work load they have. all i want is a response like posted on the demios thread. " we are looking in to it" " we know there is a problem and will fix it" "we think amarr are fine". i just want a response.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.18 15:33:00 -
[1906 ]
Originally by: Captin Biltmore ...However, confirmation of this from a Dev would be all it would take to kill this thread...... Doubtful. Tux posted just this, "I'll look at it", in the BC agility thread and it only died when it was locked weeks after Tux posted in it.
Kasak Black
133rd Ghost Wing R i s e
Posted - 2006.08.18 17:05:00 -
[1907 ]
I personally wont let this thread die until we have some form, any form, of offical reply. Could you imagine if the Mod's locked this thread? I would hate to think what people would do *** PS I know discussion of forum Moderation is not allowed, but the above is hyperthetical, infact this whole post is. Infact it does not exist at all, come to think of it niether do Devs atm *** Wuv Dev's really!
Dano Sarum
Giants in the Playground
Posted - 2006.08.18 17:48:00 -
[1908 ]
I <3 Amarr, even if they do suck. ========== -Dano Sarum GitP CEO & FounderGitP Recruitment Thread
Zaethiel
Posted - 2006.08.18 17:59:00 -
[1909 ]
Originally by: madaluap Dont even try to argue or convince people that gallente is a easy race to fly and you need low sp for it. Serieusly...DONT, because i started training gallente a looong time ago and now im reaping the rewards, while instead i could also pick the easy race like ammar (at that time). Your argument of geddon vs mega...Well that mega pilote with 6 mil SP will get his arse handed to him. Tech 2 megapulse and max specced will *****that 6 mil, crap navigation, crap damage, crap tank, crap clue on how to get in range pilote in seconds... Btw you say your 500k gunnery and 500k drone gallente char could pwn a lot of cruiser? You didnt mention what you were flying... Besides make a caldari char, put 2 mil into missiles (better atributes means you train faster aswell) and than use a dualextended caracal with heavy 2, result you will probably kill all. Besides currently its: -Rupture -Caracal -Vexor -Thorax -Maller (tankingpower) I used a Thorax. Most of the time i flew 50+km to get the target with a MWD so i had little or no cap when i engaged. My Mega tanked a Dominix and a Scorpion for 5 minutes straight, that was until the scorpion died to the 2 feroxs shooting him. The only reason he had to tank so long was because i saw no point in warping away, they couldn't break my tank. I know that if i put EAN II and a good damage control on i can easily tank a geddon or Apoc long enough to get a MWD Mega withing his optimal.
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.18 20:47:00 -
[1910 ]
Edited by: south24 on 18/08/2006 20:48:37 I don't care for all the anti amarr whineage about whineage, just give me a reason to train gallente ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.18 20:48:00 -
[1911 ]
Edited by: south24 on 18/08/2006 20:47:55 dbl post :/ ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Kunming
Amarradeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.08.18 20:51:00 -
[1912 ]
Originally by: south24 Edited by: south24 on 18/08/2006 20:48:37 I don't care for all the anti amarr whineage about whineage, just give me a reason to train gallente we have green engine trails
Kunming
Amarradeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.08.18 20:52:00 -
[1913 ]
Originally by: south24 Edited by: south24 on 18/08/2006 20:47:55 dbl post :/ yeah and curse rocks with red engines
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.08.18 23:15:00 -
[1914 ]
I have a special treat today, I am going to quote the dev blog: Quote: However, despite popular opinion we do listen to feedback from our player base and we do respond and fix things when needed. Even though we don't post on the forums all the time, it doesn't mean we're not paying attention. GOD WILLING I HOPE THIS IS TRUE. Me being a mixture of optimistic/realistic, I am sure more then ONE dev has seen this monster, however, I am not sure if they can decide how to approach this beast. After all we know how long it takes CCP to name new ships (accept for hammer). Development for kali is probably: 8 months for ship names, 3 months for code and graphics :P
MacQueen
AmarrParty of One
Posted - 2006.08.19 06:26:00 -
[1915 ]
Originally by: DrEiak I have a special treat today, I am going to quote the dev blog: Quote: However, despite popular opinion we do listen to feedback from our player base and we do respond and fix things when needed. Even though we don't post on the forums all the time, it doesn't mean we're not paying attention. GOD WILLING I HOPE THIS IS TRUE. Me being a mixture of optimistic/realistic, I am sure more then ONE dev has seen this monster, however, I am not sure if they can decide how to approach this beast. After all we know how long it takes CCP to name new ships (accept for hammer). Development for kali is probably: 8 months for ship names, 3 months for code and graphics :P That's good news, we're not looking for new ship names for Amarr, not really graphic, only some code... that should cut down to 1 and a half month... but wait, this threat have been arround for 3 month ?? Probaly need to add some more faction into account.. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Zaethiel
Posted - 2006.08.19 22:27:00 -
[1916 ]
Edited by: Zaethiel on 19/08/2006 22:30:28 No page 3 for you Mr. Was hoping the Abbadon was going to be a Drone boat. A really big one with a -99% for Drone control link CPU and PowerGrid. =) and a 10% to drone hp and damage.
Pepster
Amarr0utbreak
Posted - 2006.08.19 22:50:00 -
[1917 ]
Edited by: Pepster on 19/08/2006 22:51:02 Originally by: DrEiak I have a special treat today, I am going to quote the dev blog: Quote: However, despite popular opinion we do listen to feedback from our player base and we do respond and fix things when needed. Even though we don't post on the forums all the time, it doesn't mean we're not paying attention. GOD WILLING I HOPE THIS IS TRUE. Me being a mixture of optimistic/realistic, I am sure more then ONE dev has seen this monster, however, I am not sure if they can decide how to approach this beast. After all we know how long it takes CCP to name new ships (accept for hammer). Development for kali is probably: 8 months for ship names, 3 months for code and graphics :P After reading the blog this statement did renew my optimism...until I read the rest of the blog . I don't intend to be a sour puss but I don't think the statement was referring to our problem, just about the new market stuff. Anyways, I hope I'm wrong and that this is in fact good news!! /me crosses fingers
Samuel Vimes
Posted - 2006.08.20 00:37:00 -
[1918 ]
At one point they did say that they were looking into the fitting requirements for medium beams, although I do believe that was some years ago now.......
Xendie
Brutor tribe
Posted - 2006.08.20 07:46:00 -
[1919 ]
Originally by: Samuel Vimes At one point they did say that they were looking into the fitting requirements for medium beams, although I do believe that was some years ago now....... yeah that one has stuck in there for awhile and has still been ignored. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
King Dave
Shinra Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.08.20 15:08:00 -
[1920 ]
fix my revelation ------------------------------- don't speak english... f1, f2, alt-q!
Matrices Sunbound
Posted - 2006.08.20 15:13:00 -
[1921 ]
Edited by: Matrices Sunbound on 20/08/2006 15:13:52 Come on!! go for 100 pages or at least 2000 postzors!!11! Search deeper and you shall find more ridiculous arguments inside yourself! For all the good arguments have been used up
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.20 15:18:00 -
[1922 ]
our ships look like bananas :( - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.20 15:34:00 -
[1923 ]
Somebody care to post a short list of the main points of this thread ?
Miri Tirzan
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.08.20 15:37:00 -
[1924 ]
I have to admit, the EM damage being nerfed, the range of pulse lasers being nerfed, and the fact that beams mounting requirements are so high does work to make Amarr ship pretty crappy for the last year or so. Three things need to be done to fix this. 1. reduce the mounting requirements for beams 2. switch em and thermal damage 3. Encrease the damage of pulse lasers. Why? 1. Because the mounting requirements for beams has historically been set to high. No other race has this much trouble mounting thier weapons. 2. Since this is a game, the fact that lasers (IRL) dont do any EM damage, ever! does not really matter, but the context should be consistant. Cal and Amarr are frends yet Amarr is only good at killing Cal ships. This does not make much sense to me but what the hey, it is CCP's game. How ever, both armor and shields have some natural shielding to thermal so this would not upset the game that much but would stop the 2 adaptive IIs and DC from making lasers the worst weapons and would make them about the same as everyone else. 3. Pulse and Beam do about the same damage. No other race's weapons do the same damage, if you give up range, you get more damage how ever that is not true of Lasers. Please increase the pulse lasers damage since you have already reduced thier range. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.20 15:43:00 -
[1925 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 Somebody care to post a short list of the main points of this thread ? I am working on it, just haven't finished it because I have been cranking away on RL. Basically an update on my posts on page 40, 41 since there have been several really good ideas since then. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Auryn Darkblade
Posted - 2006.08.20 16:28:00 -
[1926 ]
Originally by: callonious Has there been no Dev Reply at all to this? Even after this many pages man...talk about customer care :S I mean, come on, all we want is an acknoledgement that they have seen one of the several threads on this issue! CCP! Wake up!
Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.20 16:41:00 -
[1927 ]
Evil page number reached. C¦mon devs.Ship lovers click here
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.20 17:15:00 -
[1928 ]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 Evil page number reached. C¦mon devs. Na, thats 666. But we'll get there eventually.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.20 20:48:00 -
[1929 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 20/08/2006 20:49:56 Look man - Dont kid youself - Nothing is going to change on the Amarr. If you currenly fly amarr for lvl4 solo, then train up a few weeks worth of shield skils to get a better shield tank on a Amarr Curse than the armour tank on an apoc has. And yes - the curse has Higher DPS and can also choose its damagetype. If its PvP, then again pick a curse or pilgrim... and make do with them until you get good shield/missile/projectile skills etc. Or better still, Train up caldari/gallente/minmatar BS. No dev is going to risk their reputation by saying that Amarr will or wont change.... Because they are not going to change! The devs are working on kali and other aspects and they are not going to look at the amarr issue at all for at least another few months. Even if the devs are looking at it - it will be at least 3-6 months before anything changes anyway. You can face it and do what I am doing - Training up Shield/missile skills to use the pwnmobile Shield/Missile curse of doom, which is the highest DPS ship the amarr have at the moment, or you can train up caldari, use t2 torps with a target painter and become the solo pwnmobile. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.08.20 21:18:00 -
[1930 ]
Shesh control yourselfs and stop *****ing about CCP. Lets see what is comming in Kali and maybe before that: ECM nerf and WCS nerf. This affects everyone but also depending on how drastic it is will help laser users most by making mid's less valuable for scramblers and ECM and more shield tank + damage mod setups will be used. Obviously we need to wait and see hence why even look at "problems" with Amarr when the game could be very different by christmas time. Raven will probably be shield tanked more and less ECM+armour tanked. Domi might be used more as the shield tank + PDU's/damage mods as NOS is being looked at being nerfed. Two more shield tanked BS's in the Caldari and Minmatar ships. So looking at the BS level the guess-timate split of armour : shield tank ships could be... 3 Amarr armour tanks 2 Gallente armour tanks, 1 split 1 Minmatar armour tank, 1 split but leaning to armour and 1 shield tank. 2 Caldari shield tanks, 1 split between armour+ecm. Total of 6 full armour ships and 3 full shield ships. Now starting with 0% EM they have two choices, use a EM or not, if they decide to use one they're fitting JUST for Amarr, leaving the shields weaker against Hybrids. If amarr suck and gallente are the flavor of the month why use an EM hardener+invulns and not just all invulns? A 2x or 3x invuln hardened shield tank really sucks for minmatars already low damage output, our T2 ammo would do less than lasers on armour by alot, we'd have to drop to phased plasma the same thermal/kinetic ammo as hybrids but a lot less damage. So.... how about calming down, and waiting till these major changes happen then see how things play out. 2 armour BS, 2 shield BS are comming and with ecm/nos/wcs changes that could make 2 more common shield tanked ships on top. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.20 22:29:00 -
[1931 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc ... Raven will probably be shield tanked more and less ECM+armour tanked. Domi might be used more as the shield tank + PDU's/damage mods as NOS is being looked at being nerfed. Two more shield tanked BS's in the Caldari and Minmatar ships. So looking at the BS level the guess-timate split of armour : shield tank ships could be... 3 Amarr armour tanks 2 Gallente armour tanks, 1 split 1 Minmatar armour tank, 1 split but leaning to armour and 1 shield tank. 2 Caldari shield tanks, 1 split between armour+ecm. Total of 6 full armour ships and 3 full shield ships. Now starting with 0% EM they have two choices, use a EM or not, if they decide to use one they're fitting JUST for Amarr, leaving the shields weaker against Hybrids. If amarr suck and gallente are the flavor of the month why use an EM hardener+invulns and not just all invulns? A 2x or 3x invuln hardened shield tank really sucks for minmatars already low damage output, our T2 ammo would do less than lasers on armour by alot, we'd have to drop to phased plasma the same thermal/kinetic ammo as hybrids but a lot less damage. So.... how about calming down, and waiting till these major changes happen then see how things play out. 2 armour BS, 2 shield BS are comming and with ecm/nos/wcs changes that could make 2 more common shield tanked ships on top. WTS: clue. Firstly, even if they nerf ecm/nos to *hell* a domi will never, ever be a shieldtank. Lets see... 5 meds, 7 lows... more armor than shield... no need for damagemods since drones primary dps.. Yes, of cource. Use all of the 5 medslots for a shieldtank, fit no cap booster, ab/mwd, disruptor and web and use all 7 low slots for..er.. ... .. nanofibers! Brilliant! Secondly, shieldtanks use an EM harderer because not only amarr can use EM (missles and EMP ammo comes to mind) and it's otherwise a big damagehole for them. Thridly, even if they balance ECM medslots are still >> lowslots (see the domi example). And in case you missed it, we get also tier 2 BCs with kali. And guess what the minnie one is: an armortanker. The amarr: armor, gallanete: armor, minnie: 50:50 armor/shield and caldari: shield ship distribution has changed not a *single* bit. Basically, 66% of *all* ships ingame (not only BSs) are armortankers, 33% shieldtankers. And this is under perfect conditions (meaning no switch to armortank because you want to use medslot modules for tackeling or EW). So, 33% of all ships can have the high exp resists (so you have to switch from t2 to your highest dps t1 ammo as you complained). Now, just *imagine* this would not be 33%, but 66% and switching to t1 ammo won't help because that is doing the same damagetypes. Sooo... why exactly should we calm down?
Soren Eisarson
Posted - 2006.08.20 23:28:00 -
[1932 ]
Look Ma!! I'm on page 66!!! Does anyone actually have the time to read 66 pages of bull****?
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.08.20 23:55:00 -
[1933 ]
Originally by: Aramendel WTS: clue. Firstly, even if they nerf ecm/nos to *hell* a domi will never, ever be a shieldtank. Lets see... 5 meds, 7 lows... more armor than shield... no need for damagemods since drones primary dps.. Yes, of cource. Use all of the 5 medslots for a shieldtank, fit no cap booster, ab/mwd, disruptor and web and use all 7 low slots for..er.. ... .. nanofibers! Brilliant! Secondly, shieldtanks use an EM harderer because not only amarr can use EM (missles and EMP ammo comes to mind) and it's otherwise a big damagehole for them. Thridly, even if they balance ECM medslots are still >> lowslots (see the domi example). And in case you missed it, we get also tier 2 BCs with kali. And guess what the minnie one is: an armortanker. The amarr: armor, gallanete: armor, minnie: 50:50 armor/shield and caldari: shield ship distribution has changed not a *single* bit. Basically, 66% of *all* ships ingame (not only BSs) are armortankers, 33% shieldtankers. And this is under perfect conditions (meaning no switch to armortank because you want to use medslot modules for tackeling or EW). So, 33% of all ships can have the high exp resists (so you have to switch from t2 to your highest dps t1 ammo as you complained). Now, just *imagine* this would not be 33%, but 66% and switching to t1 ammo won't help because that is doing the same damagetypes. Sooo... why exactly should we calm down? wow great put down. Just say someone hasn't a clue to put there arguement down. WTB: a clue, bit of creativity and some patience for Aramendel. Shield tanked - nos domi's have been used before. electron blaster domi + heavy drones does more damage than ion + heavy drone mega. In situations such as a neutron mega would be used a shield tanked gank domi would also be nice spitting out similar damage, or am I just crazy here? Thats what 800mm tempests used to do before stacking so 5 mids to tank isn't to crazy in the depending on the situation. EMP's only <50% EM, most of the other 50% is explosive, the highest resisted damage for shields. So the low damage of projectiles is lowered again. Fusion vs armour gets better results than emp vs shields. This is our reward for no cap use and the lowest damage output of the damage systems. Not everything needs to be a tackler. Sure mids are used for tackling, but in words of ccp on the maelstrom "get others to tackle for you". There is no 1 best setup. I mentioned WCS nerf, so less points are needed against combat ships. Your view of post-kali is obviously different from mine, we're both guessing so no one is right atm. Sure there are more armour tanking ships than shield. But how mant people fly caldari? How popular will the minny shield tanker be? We don't know, hence wait and see! Complaining about stuff that will change in Kali isn't going to get a response from a dev cos its pure guess work at this point in time. Why should you all calm down? Because its a game? Because the problems arn't as big as some people make out? Because the game is going to change? Because theres a lot of other things in the game that need balancing? The issues can be addressed when Kali is being balanced maybe? Maybe the Dev's lost track of this topic and don't have time reading 50+ pages of ranting since they're actually working and not at work slacking like lots of forum warriors. Would take hours to read through this one topic, in that time they could go do actual work then go on a test server and try it out and not just theorise about everything. I'll end by saying, if the latest way amarr peeps have come up with to fix laser damage is to nerf EANM's then Invulns need nerfing so they have to use 3x active hardeners so that minnies T2 ammo does some damage on them. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.21 02:28:00 -
[1934 ]
Quote: I'll end by saying, if the latest way amarr peeps have come up with to fix laser damage is to nerf EANM's then Invulns need nerfing so they have to use 3x active hardeners so that minnies T2 ammo does some damage on them. Yeah, it must be real hard on those guys... having to switch ammo should they encounter a sheild tanker. How do they manage? - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.21 08:53:00 -
[1935 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Shield tanked - nos domi's have been used before. electron blaster domi + heavy drones does more damage than ion + heavy drone mega. In situations such as a neutron mega would be used a shield tanked gank domi would also be nice spitting out similar damage, or am I just crazy here? Thats what 800mm tempests used to do before stacking so 5 mids to tank isn't to crazy in the depending on the situation. You could also shield tank an Typhoon. It actually would be a more effective shieldtank than the domi. Seriously, ask any halfway experienced gallente pilot if he would consider to use a shieldtank setup in even 10% of his time flying it. So, yes, you are crazy here to consider it in any way a halfway regulary setup. Quote: EMP's only <50% EM, most of the other 50% is explosive, the highest resisted damage for shields. So the low damage of projectiles is lowered again. Fusion vs armour gets better results than emp vs shields. This is our reward for no cap use and the lowest damage output of the damage systems. 45% EM, 36% exp and 18% kin actually. But yes, if you add that the most typical 3 slot shield tank setup is 1 EM, 2 invul phased plasma is better there. And, for gods sake, stop your "we do sooo little damage" whining. Have you even *compared* the ships? I just recently switched from a prophecy to a cyclone for ratting angels. Both ships have pretty much the same base dps. An apoc with megabeams has 9.6% more dps than a tempest with 1400mms. But that is without launchers. Quote: Not everything needs to be a tackler. Sure mids are used for tackling, but in words of ccp on the maelstrom "get others to tackle for you". There is no 1 best setup. I mentioned WCS nerf, so less points are needed against combat ships. Your view of post-kali is obviously different from mine, we're both guessing so no one is right atm. You completly miss the point here. Sure not every needs to be a tackler. But *someone* does. And guess what that one will not be doing? Shield tanking. There are not only BSs ingame. Quote: Sure there are more armour tanking ships than shield. But how mant people fly caldari? How popular will the minny shield tanker be? We don't know, hence wait and see! Complaining about stuff that will change in Kali isn't going to get a response from a dev cos its pure guess work at this point in time. Caldari is a popular race, yes. But mainly for PvE - you do not see even remotely that many caldari pilots in PvP. And you do not really need a boost vs PvE outfitted ships. And, again, the minnie shieldtanking BS is balanced by the minnie armortanking BC. Considering the amount of whine for the first and the complete lack of whines for the latter it is quite likely that the BC will be more popular.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.21 08:54:00 -
[1936 ]
Quote: Why should you all calm down? Because its a game? Because the problems arn't as big as some people make out? Because the game is going to change? Because theres a lot of other things in the game that need balancing? The issues can be addressed when Kali is being balanced maybe? Maybe the Dev's lost track of this topic and don't have time reading 50+ pages of ranting since they're actually working and not at work slacking like lots of forum warriors. Would take hours to read through this one topic, in that time they could go do actual work then go on a test server and try it out and not just theorise about everything. I'll end by saying, if the latest way amarr peeps have come up with to fix laser damage is to nerf EANM's then Invulns need nerfing so they have to use 3x active hardeners so that minnies T2 ammo does some damage on them. It is a problem. It needs to be fixed. Would you rather be quiet and hope the devs remember it eventually or try to keep it a current topic. Your fellow minnies seem to go the "current topic" way, too - not too long ago a minmatar "whine" thread grew to 75 pages. Do invuls nerfing? I do not know. If you are the opinion make a thread about it. Unlike amarr minnies have ways to counter the (considerably less common) invul tank, though.
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.21 09:06:00 -
[1937 ]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 21/08/2006 09:06:56 I dont even fly with EANM II anymore... the kinetic resists are abit too low, considering all the gallente ships you encounter out there. Definently more gallente ships than amarr ships out there in my experience. Edit: Also kinetic is often the damage type choosen by caldari ships. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.21 13:17:00 -
[1938 ]
Edited by: Gariuys on 21/08/2006 13:19:28 Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 21/08/2006 09:06:56 I dont even fly with EANM II anymore... the kinetic resists are abit too low, considering all the gallente ships you encounter out there. Definently more gallente ships than amarr ships out there in my experience. Edit: Also kinetic is often the damage type choosen by caldari ships. I fly all mine with 1 EANM at the very least... but I still got 70%+ across the board, differences are between 5-10% of each other, with explosive being the lowest normally... and yes that's on t1 ships too. Edit: Must note that I find it extremely ammusing that there are people that say there are ships that are designed to armour tank, when armour tanking was designed long after most those ships where ( since this is mostly regarding battleship balance ).
Astorothe
Ono-Sensai
Posted - 2006.08.21 14:42:00 -
[1939 ]
No way I'm reading 67 pages - Executive summary please Ono-Sensai is a Corporation for Role Players Gaming Network Members
HippoKing
CaldariBeagle Corp
Posted - 2006.08.21 14:43:00 -
[1940 ]
Originally by: Astorothe No way I'm reading 67 pages - Executive summary please OH GOD AMARR SUCK BOOST PLEASE COME ON GUYS LISTEN TO USSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.21 14:44:00 -
[1941 ]
Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Astorothe No way I'm reading 67 pages - Executive summary please OH GOD AMARR SUCK BOOST PLEASE COME ON GUYS LISTEN TO USSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! I agree, but you should be careful what you post these days...forum mods dislike you. :) --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.21 14:45:00 -
[1942 ]
Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Astorothe No way I'm reading 67 pages - Executive summary please OH GOD AMARR SUCK BOOST PLEASE COME ON GUYS LISTEN TO USSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! omg the king has returned - and he's more sarcastic than ever! - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Worum Farrior
Posted - 2006.08.21 14:45:00 -
[1943 ]
Originally by: HippoKing OH GOD AMARR SUCK BOOST PLEASE COME ON GUYS LISTEN TO USSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! Hi
HippoKing
CaldariBeagle Corp
Posted - 2006.08.21 14:49:00 -
[1944 ]
Originally by: Dixon Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Astorothe No way I'm reading 67 pages - Executive summary please OH GOD AMARR SUCK BOOST PLEASE COME ON GUYS LISTEN TO USSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! omg the king has returned - and he's more sarcastic than ever! Don't worry, I'll get it out of my system soon
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.21 14:49:00 -
[1945 ]
Originally by: Dixon Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Astorothe No way I'm reading 67 pages - Executive summary please OH GOD AMARR SUCK BOOST PLEASE COME ON GUYS LISTEN TO USSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! omg the king has returned - and he's more sarcastic than ever! I would say honest, but thats me... :) --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Worum Farrior
Posted - 2006.08.21 14:57:00 -
[1946 ]
ZOMG LIEK HAY CEECEEPEE UNNURF TEH AMARR!!!!111 BRING BAKC TEH UBER PULSE LASERS PEW PEW PEW GIVE THE ZEALOT A FITH TURRENT AND NURF EW MISSIELS AND DROMES LOLLERSKATES!!!!!
Astorothe
Ono-Sensai
Posted - 2006.08.21 15:08:00 -
[1947 ]
Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Astorothe No way I'm reading 67 pages - Executive summary please OH GOD AMARR SUCK BOOST PLEASE COME ON GUYS LISTEN TO USSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! Thanks Hippo - you've saved me from skimming this entire thread. I bow before your forum-lore - the king has indeed returned. Ono-Sensai is a Corporation for Role Players Gaming Network Members
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.08.21 17:32:00 -
[1948 ]
Dixon - You missed the point. The actual best ammo for projectile against shields is Phased Plasma as Aramendel said (was sure I said it but must of cut it out while trimming post down) The problem is you can't just boost lasers due to a specific armour tank. That hurts the 3x hardener tanks and shield tankers forcing them to use said tank as well. Nerf the skill? Nerf the module? I'm sure people who have put the time into them to level 4 and 5 to get the effect would be pleased. I purely brought up the Invuln to compare with EANM. Why is one active and 1 passive? Why does one get affected by skill and the other doesn't? If invuln gets 25% without skill and EANM needs skill to get to a similar affect nerfing EANM is very harsh on people who put the time into skills which arn't required for the shield version. Maybe reducing all ships starting highest resist by 5-10% ? So shield's explosive is 50% and armours EM is 50% (with the ship race bonus applied after so minmatar BS's are 60% em). People can still fit the EANM tanks, em will be lower on armour now without affecting other resists and still making EANM+damage control having a benifit over active hardeners. Maybe the problem is the damage type specific passive hardeners aren't good enough? --------------------- Aramendel - Yes i've looked the damage outputs using NB's graph and the great tanking feature. 3 EANM vs 1EM+2Inv tanks. With 800's vs megabeams, the differences is pest has about 75dps more on armour and poc has about 75dps more on shields. (from memory, not going to program in the settings again). It's ok saying "just change ammo", we don't know what setup of tank the target is using, we have to guess, we get it wrong we lose a moredamage. If EMP is bad for shields and bad for armour... whats it good for? Its average for both. Fusion/T2 for armour. Phased for shields. Try carrying all this ammo around plus cap boosters. You get 2 loads of PP, 2 loads of Fusion/t2 and 1 load of EMP with 8x 800 charges as well as 1 load of ammo 4 charges loaded. Amarr's lasers ammo uses neglagable m3, so you can pack with cap boosters. I guess cap boosters are meant for amarr as ammo. FFS ANGELS! mmm what could my return arguement be, "i switched from cyclone to proph to fight sanshas". Every race has an ideal rat to fight so mute point. The whines about shield tanked BC are due to: no shield tank frigate no shield tank cruiser (bellicose at best but thats meant to be EW, and if you call a 3mid stabber with 1 expander a tank then lol) a weak shield tank BS in the pest. So having a shield tanked BC is a bit of a pain when your starting out. An armour tanked BC fits more into a training path with current T1 ships. If there was a shield tank cruiser you'd see a lot more use with the shield tank bs comming in Kali. --------------------- No problem with constuctive posts. Problem with this topic is its to big, to full of rubbish and "WE WANT DEV REPLY" which does no one any favors. Having one topic with every problem anyone can think of isn't useful. Valid points get lost in arguements about minor points. I have no doubt Minmatar people could make a topic just as long now with there problems. Just because one topic is larger than another means it should get the dev's attention? You'll find two Minmatar topics that have been around for a while. My own Breacher topic to try and get a second useable frigate and a Bellicose topic. Most responses are /signed or constuctive posts. Because they're small topics is the content anyless valid? Theres a lot less arguement against the changes which probably kept the topic sizes down. Enough has been said in this topic, its going around and around and around in circles. If theres good valid posts in here dig them out and give the seperate issues there own discusion. Not going to reply again here, I hope this topic dies, and constructive topics replace it. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.21 17:41:00 -
[1949 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Maybe reducing all ships starting highest resist by 5-10% ? So shield's explosive is 50% and armours EM is 50% (with the ship race bonus applied after so minmatar BS's are 60% em). People can still fit the EANM tanks, em will be lower on armour now without affecting other resists and still making EANM+damage control having a benifit over active hardeners. Yes, that is what I am suggesting for some time as well. Although as resistance "replacement" (meaning moving EM resistance from armor to shield). Minnies can happily do the same for exp (in reverese), although that would effeciently be a nerf for them due to the armor/shieldtanker numbers relation. Quote: FFS ANGELS! mmm what could my return arguement be, "i switched from cyclone to proph to fight sanshas". Every race has an ideal rat to fight so mute point. I said BASE damage. Aka dps *before* resistances.
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.21 17:47:00 -
[1950 ]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 21/08/2006 17:49:10 Ah never mind... I dont want to argue in this thread anyway. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.21 17:59:00 -
[1951 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Dixon - You missed the point. The actual best ammo for projectile against shields is Phased Plasma as Aramendel said (was sure I said it but must of cut it out while trimming post down) The problem is you can't just boost lasers due to a specific armour tank. That hurts the 3x hardener tanks and shield tankers forcing them to use said tank as well. I didn't miss any point, you however did. I don't want a boost to lasers, that would IMO just be stupid. EANMIIs is what I want nerfed, nothing else. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2006.08.21 20:49:00 -
[1952 ]
EANMII nerf will not solve anything .. but creating something else to amarr will. Replace stupid "cap usage" on ships and reduce cap usage on lasers and put REAL damage bonus to amarr ships.Unnerf Amarr! "Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must. "
Miri Tirzan
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.08.21 21:02:00 -
[1953 ]
I still think the easiest fix is swap EM and Thermal damage. That will go along way to making Lasers equal to all other weapons that cannot switch damage types. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Kaylana Syi
MinmatarThe Nest
Posted - 2006.08.22 05:02:00 -
[1954 ]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan I still think the easiest fix is swap EM and Thermal damage. That will go along way to making Lasers equal to all other weapons that cannot switch damage types. I don't think so. EM is, traditionally, best on shield tankers while Explosive is best on armor. Thermal and Kinetic are secondary resisted damage and can be tertiary. The problem isn't that amarr are terribly bad... its that shield tanking in pvp isn't good compared to a EANM tank + ECM. Give 'one' crystal higher thermal as an exception to the rule ( for both t1 and t2 crystals ) but EM should always be the best damage for amarr.Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Xendie
Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.23 12:41:00 -
[1955 ]
nomatter what something needs to be done. some kind of fix has to be thought out to fix the amarr race. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Death Kill
Caldaridirekte
Posted - 2006.08.23 13:29:00 -
[1956 ]
Edited by: Death Kill on 23/08/2006 13:29:43 What about just boosting the em damage of crystals, not THAT much but just enough to put Amarr back in the game. edit : Boosting the em damage as much as the eanII and passive tanking skils boosted em resistance.For the state for the state for the state
Pesadel0
Posted - 2006.08.23 13:45:00 -
[1957 ]
Edited by: Pesadel0 on 23/08/2006 13:47:14 Originally by: Kuolematon EANMII nerf will not solve anything .. but creating something else to amarr will. Replace stupid "cap usage" on ships and reduce cap usage on lasers and put REAL damage bonus to amarr ships. You had your time when all the people were going Armageddon's ,that time will not come again ,the ammarians only need the damage switched to thermal and a complete overhaul to SOME of their ships nothing more.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.23 13:48:00 -
[1958 ]
Originally by: Death Kill Edited by: Death Kill on 23/08/2006 13:29:43 What about just boosting the em damage of crystals, not THAT much but just enough to put Amarr back in the game. edit : Boosting the em damage as much as the eanII and passive tanking skils boosted em resistance. That would be a 50% damage increase. And while I would love to fly around in "pwn mode" with this it prolly isn't very balanced. Really EANIIs need to be nerfed back to 15%. Individual passives need to be boosted to 50% with skills. Actives could prolly be boosted a bit as well, 55% T1 and 60% T2 as Ithildin suggested. Otherwise we could change the base resists, 35% for Armor and 25% EM for shields. Or something along those lines. Either would get the job done really. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.08.23 13:54:00 -
[1959 ]
honestly i hate hearing about the geddon in this thread, the geddon is more responsible for our situation now than any other amarr ship. the devs balanced our whole race against it
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.23 14:14:00 -
[1960 ]
Originally by: Kardim honestly i hate hearing about the geddon in this thread, the geddon is more responsible for our situation now than any other amarr ship. the devs balanced our whole race against it QFT The Geddon is good, and needs to be considered without a doubt. It's just too bad that all the other Amarr ships suck because making adjustments may make the geddon a bit better. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.23 14:20:00 -
[1961 ]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 21/08/2006 17:49:10 Ah never mind... I dont want to argue in this thread anyway. Yeah, personally I feel teaching a hungry lion how to fish while being covered in a thick layer of fresh blood would be a more productive use of my time.... accomplish very little on the learning front, but atleast the lions fed.
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.23 14:21:00 -
[1962 ]
Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 21/08/2006 17:49:10 Ah never mind... I dont want to argue in this thread anyway. Yeah, personally I feel teaching a hungry lion how to fish while being covered in a thick layer of fresh blood would be a more productive use of my time.... accomplish very little on the learning front, but atleast the lions fed. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.23 14:22:00 -
[1963 ]
So, most of the ships are armor tankers. Many fit EANIIs. That means, most of the ships have a tank that takes 50% less damage from ANY source, scince the RANII armor tank hardens each resistance by approx. 50%. Before this EM wasnt hardned at all when armor tanking. Now, armor tanks take 50% less damage from ANY source! This means, that while EM has no disadvantage now, scince ALL SOUCES GET 50% LESS damage, it had a massive advantage before the EANIIs, when it did not get hardened at all. And while ALL DAMAGE TYPES get 50% less impact on EANII, EM still gets the best impact on shields, if you fit invul. field hardening, which many do. Additionally, Lasers do more raw damge than hyrids or projectiles thanks to their superior optimal, RoF (<- most important), higher damgage modifier and tracking. Strandad crystals do exactly the same base damage than lead hyrid charges, as do all other ammos of the same class, albeit the values may be split a litte between damage types. But it does NOT matter when you talk about equal hardeners. I am afraid we have to realize that, in fact, damage types are balanced, especially when talking about EANIIs. THINK ABOUT IT All damage types get hardened by 50%, but lasers STILL do more raw damage, at the expense of a little more cap use, that is 5% with optimal skills (50% less from ships boni, and 45% from standard crystal, while rails get 50% from the lead ammo and the guns have 50% less base cap use). Its tough luck, but the truth is, that while lasers did way more damge before the EANII boost, they are now IN LINE, and not underpowered with other turret weapons. TBH, things are very balanced on this side of things.
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.08.23 15:05:00 -
[1964 ]
honestly i thouht as u did that everybody gets 50% less dmg so must be even, but then started to do the math and was quite dissapointed. look to page 60 post 1794 sir for a good going over the numbers w/ this. hybrids cant be compared completly w/ lasers because blasters do so much more raw dps. and yes i know that lasers are oooo much better tracking, but when u get under the optimal the tracking isnt sufficient really and honestly most battles happen under the optimal of lasers, maybe save for a sniper ship but then amarr snipers really have some to be desired. personally i never trained projectiles as somehow around launch i picked up a slight r/p hatred of anything minmitar unless they are scrubbing my ships (: so cant really speak for them.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.23 15:22:00 -
[1965 ]
Quote: THINK ABOUT IT All damage types get hardened by 50%, but lasers STILL do more raw damage Apoc with EANIIx2 + DC 80EM/60Expl/62.5Kin/67.5Therm So lasers would need to do roughly 50% more base damage to make up the difference? I challenge you to run the numbers and post them here. I, and several others, have done so already. And Amarr gets the shaft big time because of EAN IIs +DC. Otherwise it's hypocritical to ask people to "THINK ABOUT IT" without doing so yourself. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.23 17:28:00 -
[1966 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 23/08/2006 17:29:16 Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 21/08/2006 17:49:10 Ah never mind... I dont want to argue in this thread anyway. Yeah, personally I feel teaching a hungry lion how to fish while being covered in a thick layer of fresh blood would be a more productive use of my time.... accomplish very little on the learning front, but atleast the lions fed. Actually Jimmys original post was an agreement that if shield exp resist is lower for all he cares armor em resist can be lowered, too. He then probably realised that if this is not done by simply removing the resistance (which would screw the balance somewhat in disfavour to hybrids since thouse would the suffer more resistances than laser/projectiles) but by switching it over to the other tanking system (aka EM res armor -> shield and exp res shield -> armor) it would be effeciently a *nerf* for projectiles for obvious reasons and quickly edited his post. At least this showed that Jimmy is quite aware of the problem and is just trolling. Originally by: Andreask14 ...This means, that while EM has no disadvantage now, scince ALL SOUCES GET 50% LESS damage, it had a massive advantage before the EANIIs, when it did not get hardened at all. Additionally, Lasers do more raw damge than hyrids or projectiles thanks to their superior optimal, RoF (<- most important), higher damgage modifier and tracking... "Not hardened at all" exept the base 60% (for non-minnie ships) EM resistance of armor. Armor resistances with 3 harderners were pretty equal pre-RMR. Sure lasers do more shield damage, but since we have peraps 1 in 5 pvp fitted ships doing a shieldtank this is of not much use. And, no, lasers do not really do more raw damage than hybrids. A megabeam with a 50% cap bonus does actually slightly *less* dps than a 425 rail with a 25% damage bonus. Some amarr ships have a ROF bonus, too, but those have a weaker tank than other ships of the same class. It is an tradeoff, no advantage. Also, pulse lasers have the best optimal and worst tracking of shortrange weapons, beam lasers the best tracking and worst optimal. I agree with Nyxus here, you obviously have not "THOUGHT ABOUT IT" youself.
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.23 17:33:00 -
[1967 ]
Ok, so i did a short rundown of the number. First, i compared Large Ion Blaster 1 to Mega Pulse laser 1. Lets assume these are fitted to an APOC each which is EANII+DC hardned. There are no other mods, skills or implants involved in this comparisons, just the guns and the hardeners. Also, both weapons are fitted with their most damaging ammo, Antimatter for the Blasters and Multifrequency for the Pulses. This means that the pulses get a range of 10k and the blasters a range of 2.5k, while the blasters have nearly double as much tracking. The raw damage done by one shot of the blaster is 135, and 144 for the pulse, thus the pulse does 7% more raw damage, judging only by the ammo and damage-modifier. Now we add the resistances. When one blaster shot tries to punch through resis of 62.5% kin and 67.5% therm at optimal range with no transversal, leaving a damage of 47,81. The pulse lasers damages for 36,3 after 80% of Em and 67.5% of therm resis. So, the blaster does 31% more damage after resis, assuming both weapons are mounted on an APOC with 0 transversal and the hits are of equal quality, that means both are in their optimal in this case, thus the ships are no farther than 2.5k from eachother. Also, signature radius and resolution is equal for both. --------------------- I did the same comparison between an APOC mounted with a 425mm Railgun and a Mega Beam Laser. This time, they use the longest range t1 ammo, thats Iron Charge and Radio Crystals. 76,8 km optimal vs 64 km optimal, so lets assume we shoot at 64km. The railgun has less tracking by a good margin, but i wont factor that in right now. Before resists the one 425mm does 55 points of raw damage, and the radio crystal does 60. So the radio does 9% more damage. After our EANII resists on an APOC, the 425mm does 19,52 points of damage to the armor and the beam laser with radio does 12. That means that the railgun does 62% more damage in a single shot on the EANII hardned armor of an APOC, when not factoring in and transversal, tracking, signatures, skill, boni and reloads. Shortrange blasters do 31% more damge in a single shot than pulses, long range rails do 62% more damage in a single shot than beams. HOWEVER When you use the turret guide and factor in tracking, you will see that pulses and beams have a higher chance to hit when any transversal is factored in, the blasters even never reach the peak hit-chance of a pulse, ever, not even AT their optimal. This means that the tracking speed/distance ratio of a balster is worth than that of a pulse. The beams have a better chance to hit up to their optimal, then the 425mm takes over of course. --------------------------------------- As we can see blasters do a third more damage than pulses versus a hardned apoc and 425mm do even two thirds more damage than a beam, in their respective optimals.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.23 17:59:00 -
[1968 ]
No offence, but you comparsion is like that pretty meaningless because forget a little thing. ROF. Ion Blaster Cannon has a 6.75, Mega Pulse 7.88 -> IBC dps boost vs MP of 14.5% 425 rail has 9.56, a mega beam 9.00 -> MB dps boost vs 425 of 6.2% Another thing is that the tracking/range issues are pretty much the reverse for shortrange and longrange. Beam has less range, more tracking than rail. Pulse has more range, but worse tracking than blaster. If you compare a beam vs the rail at the beam optimal obviously the beam has a tracking advantage. But the same is the case when you compare a blaster vs a pulse at the blaster optimal, there the blaster can hit better.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.23 18:30:00 -
[1969 ]
Wait......are you comparing a Rail Apoc vs a Megabeam Apoc? Don't you think that *MAY* be a bit skewed? A Rail Thron vs a Megabeam Apoc and a Blasterthron vs a Pulse Apoc would make a helluva lot more sense. You may not be saying that you are using a Rail Apoc, but I read it three times and can't be sure. Can you clarify a bit please? Thanks, Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.23 18:33:00 -
[1970 ]
I said i didnt factor in RoF, and i addressed the optimal and tracking issues. The tracking guide says my calculations are absolutely right, it does give out the very same DPS. My calculations are right to the point, i checkedd them versus the item data base, the tracking guide and the in-game data. As we can see, hybrids, may it be blasters or rails, are superior to lasers in their optimal, they even do more damage when attacking an EANII hardned ship, and that without any boni or skills.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.23 18:38:00 -
[1971 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 23/08/2006 18:44:29 Ah, yes, did not even notice this. Yes, the rails are on an apoc (or at least no BS which has a bonus for them). Iron is 12 kin, 8 ther, aka 20 base damage, with the base 2.75 damagemod of the t1 425 that are 55 damage as he wrote. So in addition to the ROF mods he can also increase the hybrid dps by 25%. --- /edit The thing is if you compare only *one* single stat of a weapon you have a very high chance to get wrong results. For example, do the same damage per salvo calculation with a 1400mm and you would get as result that those are WAY WAY stronger than any other weapon. Comparing only one stat does not give you a "base line", it gives you in most cases a wrong start.
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.23 18:49:00 -
[1972 ]
Listen, i did not want to check the actual outcome of a fight, all i wanted to know is what weapons do which amount of damage against a EANII tank. This comparison was about the tank, not the weapons, that is why one hit is enough to measure, scince a passive tank wont loose or gain effectiveness over time. My result is: The EANII+DC tank is more effective against lasers than against hybrids, scince the hybrid weapons do 31% and 62% more damage respectively WHEN they hit THAT TANK, on armor, on an apoc, per hit, without boni or skills. See, the comparison is about the tank, not the weapons.
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.23 18:50:00 -
[1973 ]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/08/2006 18:53:24 Originally by: Aramendel Actually Jimmys original post was an agreement that if shield exp resist is lower for all he cares armor em resist can be lowered, too. He then probably realised that if this is not done by simply removing the resistance (which would screw the balance somewhat in disfavour to hybrids since thouse would the suffer more resistances than laser/projectiles) but by switching it over to the other tanking system (aka EM res armor -> shield and exp res shield -> armor) it would be effeciently a *nerf* for projectiles for obvious reasons and quickly edited his post. At least this showed that Jimmy is quite aware of the problem and is just trolling. Umm no. I wrote something along those lines, then realized it was a really stupid idea and then deleted it after 30 seconds. I do that sometimes, talk before i think and also write before i think. :) So please dont include me on the support side for the idea... thanks. I really dont want to argue in this thread...its so pointless. If someone like me flies minmatar then my opinions are biased... and vice versa. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.23 18:58:00 -
[1974 ]
I went ahead and did the graph of damage for you. 1 weapon on an Apoc compared to 1 weapon on a Megathron.1 Weapon comparison> Megabeam Apoc vs Rail Thron and Pulse Poc vs Blasterthron. Interesting, but not all that informative. Now pick a given range and apply those resistance numbers to the DPS accordingly. It makes Amarr users sad little bunnies. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.23 19:06:00 -
[1975 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 Listen, i did not want to check the actual outcome of a fight, all i wanted to know is what weapons do which amount of damage against a EANII tank. This comparison was about the tank, not the weapons, that is why one hit is enough to measure, scince a passive tank wont loose or gain effectiveness over time. .... See, the comparison is about the tank, not the weapons. Sorry, but that is an *awfully* flawed reasoning. You cannot compare the tank *without* looking at *all* weapon stats. The damage mod is only one stat of it. For example, comapre the tank with ACs and artys. You would conclude that arties deal more damage than ACs, yet when you take the ROF into account AC have an higher dps. No matter what you compare under which circumstances, you have to take *all* stats into account. You cannot just pick one and ignore the others. If you want "to know is what weapons do which amount of damage against a EANII tank" you have to do just that.
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.23 19:08:00 -
[1976 ]
Originally by: Aramendel I have equal skills in amarr and minnie ships - so my opinions are unbiased then, right? Im leaving this thread now... bye.... --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.23 19:11:00 -
[1977 ]
Edited by: inSpirAcy on 23/08/2006 19:11:49 Originally by: Jim McGregor Im leaving this thread now... bye.... But you made the 2000th post! Edit: Oops, looks like Ara took that honour.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.23 19:15:00 -
[1978 ]
This is how Amarr really feel these days.OMG why does Tux hate us! Although really that should be Caldari and Gallente since they seem to be the pwnsall these days. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Ithildin
GallenteThe Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.23 19:31:00 -
[1979 ]
I've been thinking (ohnoes!), what if capacitor use on lasers were cut by 35% (lasers'll be the most capacitor intensive weapon - but not by too much - while in turn also have another bonus) and the cap use bonus changed. What kind of bonus'd Amarr ships have in it's place? Now, before you get all lyrical and stuff, I've gone ahead and made a quick calculation - damage bonus would be completely and utterly overpowered, so don't even go there. Nyxus: If you change the compensation skills to add 2% to active resistance hardener gain, and then make EAN an activated hardener, would that suffice you think? It'll nerf EAN2's maximum resistance output from 25% to 22%. At the same time, this has the desired effect on current active hardeners, as described earlier, without changing their stats. All that'd be left after this is to boost the passive plates a bit (the same is true for shields, although with shields the invulnerability fields need to be nerfed a wee bit - from 30% to 20%)Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.23 19:34:00 -
[1980 ]
Originally by: Ithildin I've been thinking (ohnoes!), what if capacitor use on lasers were cut by 35% (lasers'll be the most capacitor intensive weapon - but not by too much - while in turn also have another bonus) and the cap use bonus changed. What kind of bonus'd Amarr ships have in it's place? 10% bonus to Energy Turret Heat per level. The lasers become, erm... less efficient, and their EM damage becomes more thermal.
vyperpit
GallenteYes no maybe - i dont know
Posted - 2006.08.23 19:39:00 -
[1981 ]
so who started this amarr movement, i remember that it was a blaster movement which was looked into, then the amarr came out on mass
Ithildin
GallenteThe Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.23 20:13:00 -
[1982 ]
Originally by: inSpirAcy Edited by: inSpirAcy on 23/08/2006 19:38:24 Originally by: Ithildin I've been thinking (ohnoes!), what if capacitor use on lasers were cut by 35% (lasers'll be the most capacitor intensive weapon - but not by too much - while in turn also have another bonus) and the cap use bonus changed. What kind of bonus'd Amarr ships have in it's place? 10% bonus to Energy Turret Heat per level. The lasers become, erm... less efficient, and their EM damage becomes more thermal. Edit: Knowing Tux, he'd give us an Energy Turret Efficiency bonus to generate less heat. Thermal damage isn't what lasers need. What they need is for game mechanics to allow for better specific tanks than thermal tanks. It's very simple to proove why EM damage is worse than TH damage currently - Omni-tank goodness makes it so not anything else. Changing to more thermal damage would just be a kneejerk reaction which none would benefit from in the end. Except Caldari missile boats.Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.23 20:26:00 -
[1983 ]
I know, it was a joke. I think every possible solution to the Amarr problem has been discussed over and over in this and other threads, and the best I've seen don't involve touching Amarrian ships or lasers at all (instead addressing the fundamental causes of the gross imbalance in PvP armor and shield tankers). There's nothing more to discuss so I just keep the thread going with entertainment.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Posted - 2006.08.23 20:48:00 -
[1984 ]
Originally by: Ithildin I've been thinking (ohnoes!), what if capacitor use on lasers were cut by 35% (lasers'll be the most capacitor intensive weapon - but not by too much - while in turn also have another bonus) and the cap use bonus changed. What kind of bonus'd Amarr ships have in it's place? Now, before you get all lyrical and stuff, I've gone ahead and made a quick calculation - damage bonus would be completely and utterly overpowered, so don't even go there. Nyxus: If you change the compensation skills to add 2% to active resistance hardener gain, and then make EAN an activated hardener, would that suffice you think? It'll nerf EAN2's maximum resistance output from 25% to 22%. At the same time, this has the desired effect on current active hardeners, as described earlier, without changing their stats. All that'd be left after this is to boost the passive plates a bit (the same is true for shields, although with shields the invulnerability fields need to be nerfed a wee bit - from 30% to 20%) Hmm...interesting about the bonus change for lasers Ithildin. I am not sure how the Energy Consumption would go yet. On a geddon with a cap injector it's all I can do to run reppers and lasers with 50% bonus. Could definitely be worth a slight nerf if the bonus was somewhat usefull though. Wonderful idea though, a great thought experiment trying to stretch eve in a new direction at the very least. Kudos on that. So no damage bonus. What about a ROF bonus then? J/K A bonus to armor amount per level might give a survivability bonus and a boost to tanking without being overpowered. Not sure what else would work without being uber. Will give it some thought. TBH I don't think changing Omni's to actives and passive skills to active would be enough. Right now you can get 4 slots worth of "oldschool" hardening for the price of 3 "newschool". 5 if you consider the DC acts as a plate. A freed low slot with less CPU used is a powerful incentive to counteract, even if you only used 22%. New numbers: EANII(22%) + DC(13%) Apoc 60/20/25/35 = 78.827/57.568/60.3019/65.594 For less CPU and 1 fewer slots you could still get high resists very close to what you could get with individual hardeners. TBH I just don't see a scenario where I would use oldschool over newschool even with the boost to individual actives. I don't think it would be enough. Nerfing armor Omni hardeners back down to is the only way I can see of making active or individual passive hardening attractive again. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.23 22:12:00 -
[1985 ]
The real problem there would be the damage control. 2 EAN2 + DC would be 4 * 45% armor res + 54%+ hull res vs 3 * 60% armor res. The armor res boost of both is pretty much the same, but the EAN2 setup gives you hull res boni on top of that. Due to the nonstacking of DC res it can be used as replacement for the 3rd EAN2 since that one gives after stacking penality about the same resistance bonus as the DC. Mhh.. perhaps make DC totally passive and remove the shield & armor res boni and just leave the hull res?
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.08.23 22:54:00 -
[1986 ]
Edited by: Andreask14 on 23/08/2006 22:55:38 I am very confident that the EANIIs and DCs will not get changed just because one of the less played races by a good margin has some problems with them. What i do think however, is that within the amarrian options things will change. One of the Devs mentioned on EvE-Tv that the Apocalypse will get a complete overhaul. I am curious as to what he has on his mind. /edit oh looky, new page greetings fellow amarrians !
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.23 23:06:00 -
[1987 ]
my daily bump... I finish drone int 5 in a few hours... think I'll be training gallente by the morning ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Ios Thadium
Posted - 2006.08.24 08:44:00 -
[1988 ]
Bump
Cutie Chaser
Posted - 2006.08.24 10:48:00 -
[1989 ]
Just wanted to add, I sympathize with all the Amarrians here. I spent some time flying amarr ships with lasers, and never would do so again. After I finish training for t2 Projectiles however, might get a chance to fly the giant golden schlong again, as it seems from this thread they are decent with Minmatar turrents mounted in place of lasers(?).
Xendie
Brutor tribe
Posted - 2006.08.24 11:12:00 -
[1990 ]
was fitting out a crusader this morning. ended up repackaging it and fitted out a crow and a ranis instead i have lots of small beams in my hangar but nothing that they will fit on. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.24 11:19:00 -
[1991 ]
No Amarrian ship is "decent" with projectiles, no matter what people might try to tell you. There are situations where projectiles will outperform lasers on an Amarrian ship, but it'll get spanked every time by a Minmatar ship fitting the same guns (and inheriting bonuses for them). Xendie: beams suck on the Crusader. Well, they actually suck on everything with the current powergrid issues, but they suck even more on AFs / interceptors because Gleam kills your sig radius. She's better as a pulse ship, as is the Malediction.
tehnomage
AmarrOut Siders
Posted - 2006.08.24 11:36:00 -
[1992 ]
prolly my first and only post here. At some point there was a conversation in my corp regarding some amarr players ( including me), players that asked what ship would benefit more the corp in times of war, ergo what should we train/specialize into that would be best for the corp ( I myself looking forward on a few days that I have left till a Zealot). The answer to that got me a bit surprized, and I think that pretty much says it all, and I quote : "Just train gallente/caldari, as long as Tux is in charge with the balancing, you can't go wrong with that".
willie burns
Posted - 2006.08.24 11:56:00 -
[1993 ]
is there any point of this thread continuing ? i keep hearing about how the devs do a great job and how great the customer service is. no reply yet on this subject i think it was pointed out that most of the devs characters are caldari, how many are amarr ? have they flown amarr recently ? have they tired fitting medium beam lasers on a cruiser and keep some sort of decent tank ? i hope they have, but yet still no response. amarr in its current state are only good for PvE. tanks but no tanks, i'm training for caldari now, they seem to get most of the loving from the devs.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.24 13:15:00 -
[1994 ]
Originally by: willie burns is there any point of this thread continuing ? i keep hearing about how the devs do a great job and how great the customer service is. no reply yet on this subject i think it was pointed out that most of the devs characters are caldari, how many are amarr ? have they flown amarr recently ? have they tired fitting medium beam lasers on a cruiser and keep some sort of decent tank ? i hope they have, but yet still no response. amarr in its current state are only good for PvE. tanks but no tanks, i'm training for caldari now, they seem to get most of the loving from the devs. Amarr ships are not even that good at pve to be honest, with the exception of the shield tanked curse with drones + launchers. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Ithildin
GallenteThe Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.24 13:31:00 -
[1995 ]
Just a friendly reminder, mates. Bumping is only allowed in the trade forums - and then only once per day by the thred creator. Besides, do you really think this thred needs bumping (posts without contents)? It only does more harm than good (who will read 50 pages of posts where only 20% have content?).Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.24 13:38:00 -
[1996 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Amarr ships are not even that good at pve to be honest, with the exception of the shield tanked curse with drones + launchers. Except against Sanshas etc. They're easy to kill. But then of course they're a laser-race so they would be...
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.24 13:42:00 -
[1997 ]
Originally by: Ithildin Just a friendly reminder, mates. Bumping is only allowed in the trade forums - and then only once per day by the thred creator. Besides, do you really think this thred needs bumping (posts without contents)? It only does more harm than good (who will read 50 pages of posts where only 20% have content?). True, this tread has served it's purpose and it's getting more pointless with every page. Sadly we have no dev response, but I honestly can't blame them (what are they responding to btw?). I'd love to see many things done for Amarr, but it's in the devs hands currently and we have to trust their ability to set things straight. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.24 13:54:00 -
[1998 ]
Amarr needs help and the more often our Devs see this thread when they take a look at the forums, the better. Also, we're trying to break 100 pages here! So don't spoil our record. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
madaluap
GallenteAnthrax Foundation
Posted - 2006.08.24 14:00:00 -
[1999 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 24/08/2006 14:02:10 Originally by: Xendie was fitting out a crusader this morning. ended up repackaging it and fitted out a crow and a ranis instead i have lots of small beams in my hangar but nothing that they will fit on. lol you are a big whiner, hahahahahah crusader damn that really is a nice inty... sorry but this made me chuckle _________________________________________________
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.08.24 14:27:00 -
[2000 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 24/08/2006 14:32:18 Here I will iterate and reiterate some of the issues and fixes for your literary pleasure, and ease of reading.1) Amarr don't tank better PROBLEM - Amarr supposedly armor tank better than anyone else. We sacrifice mids, which represent pvp strength and flexibility, for supposed better defense. Amarr don't have significantly better armor on the "defense specialist" ships and don't tank much better than anyone else. Any armor tanking ship only needs 2 EAN II's and a DC with a rep to tank. 2 reps if you want to go crazy tank. Most armor tanking ships can fit this with ease, both slot wise and fitting wise. In addition, the effective built in EAN II that Amarr defensive ships get "frees up" a low slot, something amarr already have in abundance and are inarguably less valuable for pvp. This is coupled with the fact that tanking ships don't have enough extra grid/cpu to fit lots of tanking mods like plates leaves a lot of extra lows with not much to fill them with. SOLUTION Give "defensive" ships ships like the Maller/Proph/Punisher a 5% armor resist and 10% armor amount bonus per level Tanking ships are already at a disadvantage since there is a dearth of low slot mods that are truly useful for pvp after fitting a 4 or even 5 slot tank. Let the th be significantly better. Give Caldari tanking ships a bonus to shield amount as well, but possibly limit it to 5% per level due to passive regen. Change Apoc to same 5%resists/10% armor per lvl instead of cap since cap booster changes makes this bonus useless. Consider boosting grid/cpu some so that ships without damage bonuses (who already do less damage even with the heaviest weapons) can fill the lows with extra plates and hardeners. Tanking in general is less attractive that damage, and these "defense" specialist ships really aren't significantly better tanks than comparable ships from other races.2) Amarr don't gank better PROBLEM - lots of em, from a variety of sources. Amarr do 2 things well and sacrifice mids/flexibility to do it. DPS and Tank. Both are semi borked atm for a variety of reasons. Let's break it down to make it easy. [list]Tanking changes, pushing everyone to passive tanks royally screwed Amarr. Where everyone used to fit therm/kin/expl hardners and had all resists right about 60%, passive tanking changes makes it so that base resists on a 3 slot tank with EANII x2 + DC is 80/60/62.5/67.5 for an apoc. This means that amarr took a 50% damage reduction when tanking changed. Do the math if you dont believe me. SOLUTION A couple ideas look promising. Dropping EM resists on armor to 40% and upping shield resists to 20% would solve the problem for the most part dropping EANII + DC hardened armor to 70EM. Still to high for a non-specific tank, but loads better than 80%. Or nerfing EAN IIs to 15% and making them active is a must. The passive comp skills make even 20% too powerful and too great an incentive to use when applied to Base Armor resists. Then boost individual passives up to 50% with skills. This pushes individual tanking and doesn't make a every generalized tanking setup anti amarr. Right now, every ship over frigate size fits this tank because its so easy to fit and effective against everything. Who wouldn't? Answer: No one. Compounding the issue is the EM reliance that crystals have. While all other ammo types have a fairly decent 50/50 split, Amarr crystals are predominantly EM, with Radio being 100% EM. This especially hurts smaller Amarr frigs and cruisers who have to fit longer range crystals to reach medium range (supposed Amarr specialty). SOLUTION - change the distribution to be more equal therm/EM like the other racial Ammos. Either than or boost EM crystal damage significantly. continued....... Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.08.24 14:28:00 -
[2001 ]
continued.....7) Some Amarr slot layouts need adjusting. PROBLEM 1 midslot for pvp just makes a ship decidedly sub par. Yes, there are things you can do with it, but only having 1 mid cripples the ship for pvp. The Coercer and Retri need two mid slots. SOLUTION -The Coercer can lose a low for a mid, and the Retri can lose a high slot for a mid. If the Claw and the Crusader can have the same slot layout (4/2/4) and be balanced then the Retri and Coercer can be more similar in slot layout to thier racial counterparts as well.8) Khanid ships SUCK. Khanid ships are pointless, half-baked versions of the gunboats. Amarr already have less flexibility in ships than other races, we NEED Khanid ships to do/be more than a lesser version of the gunboat/tank we already have.SOLUTION -Sarmaul. His MKII design is exactly what Amarr need for diversity in ships for gameplay and also interest to boost player retention. Missile spewing cool black looking ships are what Amarr desperately need atm. If an itinerant matari slave makes a suggestion to boost Amarr because they stink so much, you know that it HAS to be bad.9) Cap Use SUCKS TOO. With longer and longer fights, cap use becomes more and more of an issue. Gallente and Amarr both struggle with firing weapons and tanking for any decent length of time even with cap injectors. A slight reduction in cap use for firing guns is in order.SOLUTION Increase the controlled burst skill to 7.5% or 10% per level. This alleviates the obliterating cap needs of blasters/lasers just a bit. When eve was "20 seconds everything dead" cap for firing wasn't a problem. With todays fights it's become more and more problematic. With max skills a geddon or thron should be on the knife edge of no cap all the time. I know I have missed a few, and a few concepts are still percolating. I just like to rehash all the Amarr issues every 20 or 30 pages so we can keep track of good ideas and keep the post on topic. I hope Tux and his band of merry balancers finds this helpfull. I have numbers on most of this (Amarr ships with too low pg, radio damage type distribution compared to other races, etc.) but I didn't want to post everything in the summary for brevity's sake. I will be more than happy to do so if anyone needs it. Thanks from your Amarr Overlords (TAO), Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.08.24 14:28:00 -
[2002 ]
Continued......Designated "gank ships" like the Omen and Zealot sacrifice mids, large drone bays, and flexibility in order to gain larger turret damage. The problem is that with the stacking changes, they can't do more damage. This leaves them all the negatives without the benefit. SOLUTION - Give the Omen more fitting to fit at least Heavy Pulses and something else besides fitting mods, or better yet Heavy Beams. Drop the missile hardpoint for an extra turret hardpoint on both ships. The whole point of these ships are turret DPS, let them do it well. The fact that a Vagabond with T1 ammo outdamages a Zealot is just sick and wrong. 5 turrets puts the Zealot where it ought to be, below the Deimos but above the Vagabond. Side Note: please consider giving the Diemos a bit more grid for my Gallente friends. [/list]4) Some Amarr ship fittings are BROKEN. PROBLEM Why does the Coercer and the Thrasher have the same fittings, when lasers are MUCH harder to fit and the Coercer has an extra high turret slot? Why does the Crusader and Claw have the same fittings when the Crusader has to fit lasers and has an extra turret to fit as well? Why doesn't the maller have enough grid to fit it's utility slot with ANYTHING? Lasers take more fitting than other weapons. Amarr have more turrets than most other racial ships. GIVING AMARR THE SAME GRID/CPU AS OTHER RACIAL SHIP IS DUMBÖ. Remember kids, don't be dumbÖ - they're all gonna laugh at you! In addition, ships should be able to fill all thier slots with about the same difficulty. Even utility slots. Finally, please consider that low slot mods take up a LOT more CPU than midslot mods take up PG. A LOT. Gallente and Amarr could both use a slight boost to CPU on the ships that primarily armor tank.5) Some Amarr weapons are BROKEN. PROBLEM Amarr have 2 long range frigate guns. One is so weak as to be useless. The other, Medium Beam Lasers (small lasers fyi) don't fit on anything less than a cruiser. Other weapons like Heavy Beams/Pulses are a little too hard to fit, even for ships with extra low slots. Some weapons are non existant when gameplay could really use them. A beam laser between Dual Light Beams and Medium Beams for example. A large equivalent to gatling pulse lasers as well. SOLUTION -Make Medium Beam lasers easier to fit and look up the Beam laser tree to make sure they are all appropriate. Introduce another Small and Medium beam laser that goes in between Dual Lights/Medium Beams. Introduce a Large Gatling Pulse laser. Amarr are the turret specialist race, we need those turrets.6) Tanking is still in need of some love. PROBLEM Encouraging tanking to make pvp last longer is good. But even with the RMR changes it's still not strong enough. With an extra low it still makes way more sense to fit an extra 2 or 3 damage mods or (worse) stabbies. Making resists stronger than they are currently leads to "infinite tanking of smaller ships" issues. Low slots are devalued because tanking mods take tremendous resources compared to damage mods, stabbies, etc, and the fact that there are many fewer pvp valuable low slot mods vs mid slot mods. SOLUTION Vastly reduce the grid/cpu needs of plates and extenders. In order for pvp to last longer, larger HP are needed, but more blanket hp increases could unbalance the game. Let ships utilize extra lows and mids for more general HP. If extenders and plates had fitting reqs similar to WCS or Damage mods we would see them more often. Oversizing is not a true issue, as large amounts of hp even on a carrier or dread is still easily destroyed. This will just encourage larger HP and longer fight times. The question of whether or not to fit a plate or a damage mod should be difficult, not a no brainer.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.24 14:34:00 -
[2003 ]
Originally by: Nyxus This means that amarr took a 50% damage reduction when tanking changed. 50% only for radio. For other crystals it varies from 23% (gleam) over 29% (multifreq) to 33% (aurora). Which is still quite significant, mind you. But it hurts more than it helps to overexaggerate the problem.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.08.24 14:44:00 -
[2004 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Nyxus This means that amarr took a 50% damage reduction when tanking changed. 50% only for radio. For other crystals it varies from 23% (gleam) over 29% (multifreq) to 33% (aurora). Which is still quite significant, mind you. But it hurts more than it helps to overexaggerate the problem. This is true. I was imprecise. But most T1 ammo is overly EM weighted, especially when considering other racial ammos. Radio being the "stand out" problem. Most of the T2 ammos are more balanced between EM/Therm so the tanking changes effected them, but not as much as some of the T1 ammos. Thanks for keeping me honest Aramendel. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Ithildin
GallenteThe Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.24 15:11:00 -
[2005 ]
So, in shorter terms:Tanks Punisher, Maller, Prophecy, and Apocalypse Bonuses: +5% armour resistances and +10% armour hit points Other changes: None. Comments: Seem pretty darned fine to me. Will also solve the problem, slightly, with the Maller being better than the Omen.Assaults Omen, tier2bc, Armageddon Bonuses: No change (+5% ROF and -10% cap use) Other changes: Tweaked fitting to allow slightly better weaponry on avarage. Comments: None.Module changes Crystals (short to long range order) Multifrequency S - 7 EM, 5 TH Gamma S - 6 EM, 5 TH (-1 EM, +1 TH) Xray S - 6 EM, 4 TH Ultraviolet S - 5 EM, 4 TH (-1 EM, +1 TH) Standard S - 5 EM, 3 TH Infrared S - 4 EM, 3 TH (-1 EM, +1 TH) Microwave S - 4 EM, 2 TH Radio S - 3 EM, 2 TH (-2 EM, +2 TH) These are base damage for small crystals. Larger crystals are scaled from these!Omni and specific hardeners Put in general terms - balance should be given that specific hardeners should be more beneficial when three or more hardeners are required on a non-"Assault hardened" ship. Increased gain on specific hardeners, decreased on omni hardeners.The lasers The Dual Light Beam can be discussed (clearly better than other tier 1's, but slightly worse than other comparable tier 2 turrets), but the Medium Beam doesn't need discussing at all. * Medium Beam Laser I dropped in powergrid useage from 16 to 11. (1 MW above 150mm Railgun I, for example, sounds about right, no?) * Gatling Beam Laser I for small turrets. * Quad Light Pulse Laser I for medium turrets (this one is missing, too, you know) * Quad Medium Pulse Laser I for large turrets. * Perhaps removal of the use of "light" on cruiser classed turrets, removal of "medium" on battleship, as well as removal of use of the word "heavy" on crusier weapons... no? Fittings Powergrid Generally, slightly more powergrid on the "assault" type ships, elite ships, and the new-line ships (BC and Dessies).CPU Generally, slightly more CPU for armour tankers. ALL armour tankers. Not just Amarr.Plates and extenders Vastly reduced fittings. Personally, I'd say "remove powergrid and CPU fittings and rely on ship nerfs to limit oversizing". Also, we've got about twice as many armour plates as we need, you know...Cap usage Increase potency of Controlled Burst skill to 7.5% or 10% per level.Specific ships * All Khanid ships need revamping. * A minimum of 2 mid slots should be implemented in game for any and all ships. * All Roden Shipyards ships need revamping... oops how did that one get in there? Does this sound about right, Nyxus? I know I've left one or two things out, but I was trying to keep it concise and not make too many argumentations.Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.24 15:19:00 -
[2006 ]
And while you're at it, address the damage gap between Focused Medium Pulse and Heavy Pulse because currently it's much larger than the mid-tiers medium turrets of other races. Heavy Pulse is just as hard to fit to sub-BC ships as Heavy Neutrons are on Gallente ships; the difference is that Ions are half way between Electrons and Neutrons. Focused Mediums do barely more damage than Quad Light Beams.
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.24 15:22:00 -
[2007 ]
Laser T2 Ammo Suffers the Worst of Both Worlds It expires, so you only have a finite number of shots. But it has enough shots that you have no choice but to carry far more rounds per gun than you're likely to need, especially on a fleet BS. Lose a T2 Mega with 200 Spike L per gun and you're down under 2M isk. Lose a T2 Pest with 200 Tremor L per gun and you're down 600k. Lose a T2 Geddon with 7 Aurora L and you're down around 17M. T2 crystals need to be something like 1/10 the shots and (hopefully) 1/10 the price. (Okay, Amarr are partly compensated in that large T2 lasers only currently cost a fraction of the price of T2 rails, or for that matter T2 Projectiles. Though that of course tells its own story about whether the races are currently balanced or not...)
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.08.24 16:22:00 -
[2008 ]
Originally by: Nyxus SOLUTION Vastly reduce the grid/cpu needs of plates and extenders. In order for pvp to last longer, larger HP are needed, but more blanket hp increases could unbalance the game. Let ships utilize extra lows and mids for more general HP. If extenders and plates had fitting reqs similar to WCS or Damage mods we would see them more often. Oversizing is not a true issue, as large amounts of hp even on a carrier or dread is still easily destroyed. This will just encourage larger HP and longer fight times. The question of whether or not to fit a plate or a damage mod should be difficult not easy. I blame the uberness of damage mods, regardless of the stacking penalty. 23% more damage is way too much, especially considering the fitting requirement and the way tanking works. NB.In Rust We Trust
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.24 16:37:00 -
[2009 ]
Originally by: Naughty Boy Originally by: Nyxus SOLUTION Vastly reduce the grid/cpu needs of plates and extenders. In order for pvp to last longer, larger HP are needed, but more blanket hp increases could unbalance the game. Let ships utilize extra lows and mids for more general HP. If extenders and plates had fitting reqs similar to WCS or Damage mods we would see them more often. Oversizing is not a true issue, as large amounts of hp even on a carrier or dread is still easily destroyed. This will just encourage larger HP and longer fight times. The question of whether or not to fit a plate or a damage mod should be difficult not easy. I blame the uberness of damage mods, regardless of the stacking penalty. 23% more damage is way too much, especially considering the fitting requirement and the way tanking works. NB. QFT, damage mods are too uber and have only made this recent DPS obsession worse. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.08.24 18:18:00 -
[2010 ]
Originally by: Ithildin So, in shorter terms: <Cut excellent summation for page space> Does this sound about right, Nyxus? I know I've left one or two things out, but I was trying to keep it concise and not make too many argumentations. It's pretty darn close. The only thing I would only add a couple of things.The Omen desperately needs a lot more grid/cpu. It and the Zealot both need a 5th turret slot. I can dig up the dps graphs that Meridius did if anyone wants to see them. Sader, Coercer have the same grid as thier Matari counterparts. They have more turrets with turrets that are harder to fit. That needs to be adjusted. All ships should be equally difficult to fit, within reason. Lasers: Some name adjustment would be VERY agreeable. It's just confusing atm even for me who is Amarr specialized. *Medium beam CPU needs to be adjusted as well. Amarr aren't known for thier CPU. *Large Gatling Pulse would be good. *Gatling Beam or a Beam placed in between the duel and medium if "medium beam" are meant to be a Tachyon equivalent. *The difference between AC 800ss and 650s is only slightly less damage at the same range. It would be nice if the Amarr had the same damage at slightly less range. Right now it's double penalized, less range and less damage. This makes "hybrid" fits like what you see in Matari very very difficult for Amarr. We won't surpass Blaster tracking/damage so stepping on Gallente toes is not a problem. CPU - *ALL* armor tankers in general. Amarr, Gallente, and Matari armor tankers (like the Phoon tbh). Armor tankers should be fighting struggling with Grid, and be "ok" on CPU. Caldari should struggle with CPU rather than grid. Right now all armor tankers in general struggle both CPU AND Grid. Gallente (Mega, Rax) and Amarr (Geddon, Maller, Proph, Apoc) struggle hard with both. Plates and Extenders. Nailed this one. Either radically reduce fittings or radically boost the regenerative membranes (gives a % of armor) up to 30% or even 40%. Would resolve a lot of oversizing issues as it's a % rather than a fixed number. That about sums it up. I appreciate the excellent summation Ithildin. And tbh I agree with the Roden Shipyards revamp. Ares 4TL. You did forget the boost to the Deimos grid that I put in there though. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Shadowsword
GallenteCOLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2006.08.24 19:54:00 -
[2011 ]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 24/08/2006 19:54:24 Originally by: Nyxus The Omen desperately needs a lot more grid/cpu. It and the Zealot both need a 5th turret slot. I can dig up the dps graphs that Meridius did if anyone wants to see them. [/*] Yes, please. I know my Zealot doesn't do all that much DPS, and I think it need a boost, but I don't have precise figures of what a fifth turret would do. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.08.24 21:07:00 -
[2012 ]
Originally by: Nyxus The Omen desperately needs a lot more grid/cpu. It and the Zealot both need a 5th turret slot. I can dig up the dps graphs that Meridius did if anyone wants to see them. [/*] Yes, please. I know my Zealot doesn't do all that much DPS, and I think it need a boost, but I don't have precise figures of what a fifth turret would do. No problem. Thanks go out to NB for making the uberest spreaksheet known to Eve. Kudos to Meridius and Sarmaul for the graphs.The Truth About HAC DPS Zealot vs Vaga DPS Comparison - 4 turrets. Zealot with 5 Turrets vs Vagabond There ya go. Let me know if anyone wants anything else. Nyxus PS - forgot to add in how much EM drones blow. They need some love too. Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.24 21:34:00 -
[2013 ]
Originally by: Nyxus No problem. Thanks go out to NB for making the uberest spreaksheet known to Eve. Kudos to Meridius and Sarmaul for the graphs. Umm... ok, call me stupid, but why do you have large blasters on the Ishtar and Deimos?
Ryoko Jurai
Posted - 2006.08.24 22:02:00 -
[2014 ]
WouldnÆt it also be better too have fewer crystals? & wouldnÆt it be better to tune down the amount? All Amarr ship pilot use only a certain amount of crystals 2 to 3 never the whole package. ItÆs very frustrating if you load a crystal you need to switch you wait when the crystal switch and you find out it didnÆt load. You reload one more time by pressing reload yes success! Your about to fire you realize your enemy has already passed your optimal of that crystal you just mounted. Once again you need to switch crystal to the target current distance while all this time you havenÆt shot the enemy even once on that turret. So if you get this a couple of time behind each other the amarr are reloading just a long or longer then a launcher or another turret or very close. Crystals have no option to reload crystals as all Missile users are able to. And crystals donÆt stack automatically when you switch crystal which missiles users are able to. So to safe time your micro managing your ship cargo as well so you can switch faster so you wonÆt have a huge list of all your unstacked crystals which you need to select so you can reload & fire. For example you would go to your hangar press stack all and get ready when you have to do it again rinse and repeat. I think it would be better if the fall off & optimal or more like 50/50. Optimal & fall off would get some bonus (or new bonus) to predict better accuracy in those range Or Reduce crystals types by 2 or 4 load the remaining crystals in turret to able to fire and the turret is able to auto adjust crystal in optimal and fall-off which any high tech weapon should able to do especially lasers. But after a while the crystals will decay which you need to be replaced. In short just like a camera lens I like the latter idea and I know most people would not complain the crystal decaying at all. To be able finally be rid of the stereo type thinking of the other races that amarr donÆt use ammo.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.08.24 22:36:00 -
[2015 ]
Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: Nyxus No problem. Thanks go out to NB for making the uberest spreaksheet known to Eve. Kudos to Meridius and Sarmaul for the graphs. Umm... ok, call me stupid, but why do you have large blasters on the Ishtar and Deimos? Because I linked to the wrong graph. I liked the ones with the descriptions better. Didn't notice the incorrect weaponry. Linked to the correct weapon graph. Ironically, the Ishtar just got more uber than it already was. <sighs> Still, its an interesting graph nonetheless. If anyone wants to see the 5 turret zealot against all the other Hacs I can do that too. Please note how Fury missiles on a Cerberus makes Scorch pointless. Better damage, better range, no tracking. I can't wait to see the "high damage" assault missiles. The only thing that keeps me hanging on is the idea that Assault Missiles can go on my revamped Sarmaul style Khanid ships. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Wizzkidy
Stupid People Always Need Killing E N I G M A
Posted - 2006.08.24 23:30:00 -
[2016 ]
Nyxus very nice summery of the problem with the ammar races ships / turrets. I must say its spot on ALL those things put together in one bag makes for a BAD situation for people flying ammar and I can only hope the dev's have read this.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.08.24 23:34:00 -
[2017 ]
Thanks Wizz. I really wish I would have saved my summary for page 69. Then it would have been "69 for all Amarr answers!" Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.24 23:47:00 -
[2018 ]
I was just playing with the Zealot graph versus a few HACs, and I was getting scarily poor results. Then I realised I'd turned on the dual EANM/DC tank.
Shirazz
Posted - 2006.08.25 01:29:00 -
[2019 ]
Whats this i hear about ammar getting a boost in Kali??
Icek Villawrov
CaldariCitizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
Posted - 2006.08.25 03:31:00 -
[2020 ]
You know you've got a problem when a fellow corpmate tells you to not waste your time with lasers on an Amarr ship. Telling you that any weapon system works better. Pie > Cake
Wizzkidy
Stupid People Always Need Killing E N I G M A
Posted - 2006.08.25 09:17:00 -
[2021 ]
Originally by: Shirazz Whats this i hear about ammar getting a boost in Kali?? news to me, although it's much needed
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.25 09:19:00 -
[2022 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: Nyxus No problem. Thanks go out to NB for making the uberest spreaksheet known to Eve. Kudos to Meridius and Sarmaul for the graphs. Umm... ok, call me stupid, but why do you have large blasters on the Ishtar and Deimos? Because I linked to the wrong graph. I liked the ones with the descriptions better. Didn't notice the incorrect weaponry. Linked to the correct weapon graph. Ironically, the Ishtar just got more uber than it already was. <sighs> Still, its an interesting graph nonetheless. If anyone wants to see the 5 turret zealot against all the other Hacs I can do that too. Please note how Fury missiles on a Cerberus makes Scorch pointless. Better damage, better range, no tracking. I can't wait to see the "high damage" assault missiles. The only thing that keeps me hanging on is the idea that Assault Missiles can go on my revamped Sarmaul style Khanid ships. Nyxus the only thing that that graph shows is that the cerberus is horribly broken... just like I said would happen when people where *****ing about a boost to it....
Stephar
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.08.25 11:36:00 -
[2023 ]
Great summary Nyxus.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.08.25 11:54:00 -
[2024 ]
Any chance for doing a curse + 4 launcher/drones vs cerb DPS graph? ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.08.25 14:31:00 -
[2025 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 25/08/2006 14:33:24 Quote: the only thing that that graph shows is that the cerberus is horribly broken... just like I said would happen when people where *****ing about a boost to it.... The Cerberus is stupidly powerful. Even moreso when Assault Missiles come out. A single range bonus is really powerful powerful on any ship. A double range bonus is just incredibly potent. Even on a gunship, let alone a missile ship. The graph also shows how the zealot truly lacks in comparison to the Vagabond. Vaga has more speed, more damage, not cap dependant......it's plain to see why the Zealot needs a 5th turret. The only good thing about the Zealot is the base speed and fitting. And those 2 things desperately need to be rolled back down with the 5th turret to the Omen. Lord WarATron wondered about a drone/missile Curse vs a Cerb. Missile/Drone Curse vs a Cerberus. For PvE the Curse is great. In PvP the Curse is better in a Nos setup imho. It's actually one of the decent ships Amarr have. Again I will point out how fundamentally overpowerd a double range bonus is. Now imagine the Cerb with a superfast highdamage "short range" missile. It's gonna be scary. But really this thread is about Amarr and getting some love. As I have said before, it's not one BIG thing that is killing Amarr. Rather a lot of smaller problems and things that have been overlooked (Claw and Sader with samge grid/cpu. Medium Beams being impossible to fit, Omen/Zealot low dps, Khanid suck) and have now added up to a severe problem for all Amarr ships except a couple of standouts like the Curse, Arbi, and a lesser extent Geddon. EAN II issue is probably by far the largest "global" problem Amarr have. It pretty much effects Amarr of every level, in every shipclass. Even Amarr frigates since they fire on the larger EANII tanks. But that doesn't matter quite as much since the numbers of Amarr frigates in PVP is miniscule anyway. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Kasak Black
133rd Ghost Wing R i s e
Posted - 2006.08.25 16:55:00 -
[2026 ]
Bump
Shirazz
Posted - 2006.08.26 02:57:00 -
[2027 ]
I have just been in my first lvl 3 mission with my proph and have had my ass handed to me on a plate. My corp friend then went in there and did it in about 5 mins. These are some facts between me and my friend. I am Amarr, using a proph. He is Caldari using a Ferox. I am a fighting char with 6mil sp, he has 3total. He can do the whole thing only using cap for his hardeners and a little for his heavies, he never runs out. I use it for everything and run out within 4mins. My active tank (using all lows and a med for cap recharge gives me 80% resistences in the 2 attributes i need, i have a tech 2 armour running at all times, he uses same amount of slots, yet no cap and a lot more armour. My tank breaks, his doesnt. He does on average 180 dmg a hit every 10 seconds with five launchers (90dmg per sec). I dont get that kind of damage at 5k with mf or conflag lenses. I miss, he doesnt. Surely in a game that so many people devote their lives to THIS SHOULDNT HAPPEN?? Do the devs just ignore this post? Id like to hearsomething from them because lets face it: Amarr are a broken race.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.26 08:29:00 -
[2028 ]
Ferox is lvl 3 easymode, but the Prophecy is a good missionrunner. At least not worse than the Cyclone or Brutix. Had no problems with about 1 mil combat SP doing lvl3s.
Shadowsword
GallenteCOLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2006.08.26 08:38:00 -
[2029 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Ferox is lvl 3 easymode, but the Prophecy is a good missionrunner. At least not worse than the Cyclone or Brutix. Had no problems with about 1 mil combat SP doing lvl3s. Yes, I didn't, either, but things may have changed recently, with the modifications of deadspace missions. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.26 08:42:00 -
[2030 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 26/08/2006 08:43:25 Originally by: Shadowsword Yes, I didn't, either, but things may have changed recently, with the modifications of deadspace missions. Yes, true indeed. But even then it would not be "better" for the cyclone or brutix. For lvl 3s it's ferox >> other BCs, it's not an amarr issue but the usual caldari NPCing imbalance.
Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2006.08.27 17:10:00 -
[2031 ]
Where is DEV's?! We demand answers!!! Unnerf Amarr! "Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must. "
Auryn Darkblade
Posted - 2006.08.27 17:39:00 -
[2032 ]
Originally by: Kuolematon Where is DEV's?! We demand answers!!! There are 2 possible reasons that CCP has not posted anything in this thread: 1) No one from CCP has seen this thread (or the 10 other Amarr threads) 2) CCP chooses not to let us know that they have seen this thread (or the 10 other Amarr threads) Both of these possibilities point to bad Public Relations on CCP's part. If they havent seen the thread, it means that this entire message board is useless as a communication tool between the players and CCP, because they do not check it regularly enough for it to be useful. If they choose not to reply that they have at least seen the thread, then CCP rightly deserves any and all animosity that Amarr players are feeling right now towards the game. Both ways, CCP looses, the Amarr players lose. I dont see why CCP deosnt realize this.
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.27 17:42:00 -
[2033 ]
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade Originally by: Kuolematon Where is DEV's?! We demand answers!!! There are 2 possible reasons that CCP has not posted anything in this thread: 1) No one from CCP has seen this thread (or the 10 other Amarr threads) 2) CCP chooses not to let us know that they have seen this thread (or the 10 other Amarr threads) Both of these possibilities point to bad Public Relations on CCP's part. If they havent seen the thread, it means that this entire message board is useless as a communication tool between the players and CCP, because they do not check it regularly enough for it to be useful. If they choose not to reply that they have at least seen the thread, then CCP rightly deserves any and all animosity that Amarr players are feeling right now towards the game. Both ways, CCP looses, the Amarr players lose. I dont see why CCP deosnt realize this. Trying to force devs to reply to threads by constantly bumping it will not work. When are you going to realize this? If that was the way things worked, then why dont we all ask for things and keep bumping the thread until it reaches 100 pages? Give it a frigging break already, you are acting like kids. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.27 17:51:00 -
[2034 ]
Well, here I agree with Jim for once. Also, not replying does not mean much. Neither does replying for the matter. For example, Tux said he is looking at BC agility. So far nothing happened. AFAIK he did not reply on the AC ammo capacity thread, but AC got more of it sometime later.
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.27 17:59:00 -
[2035 ]
Originally by: Aramendel For example, Tux said he is looking at BC agility. So far nothing happened. Oh noes, a whole month ago . In summer, when everyone went on holiday.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.27 18:03:00 -
[2036 ]
Oh, I missed that one. But that isn't his first one there, he replied in the original (later locked) 50 pages "boost BC agility" thread, and that is like 2-3 months past. Good to know that something happens there. I love them for PvE, but turning as fast as a BS sucks
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.27 18:09:00 -
[2037 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Well, here I agree with Jim for once. I think we mostly disagree often because we tend to discuss game balance. Its a touchy subject. Im sure we can get along on other subjects. :) --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.27 18:15:00 -
[2038 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Good to know that something happens there. I love them for PvE, but turning as fast as a BS sucks Yeah. But the nano-Cyclone is gonna rule as a super oversized Vagabond.
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.08.27 19:26:00 -
[2039 ]
just change EM-thermal to 1/3-2/3 or something, I think this will solve alot
Stephar
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.08.28 04:26:00 -
[2040 ]
I really doubt they will acknowledge that there is a problem until people begin abandoning Amarr en masse. And even after that, it will probably take at least 6 months before the problem is addressed. They've been talking about fixing ECM for, uh, 6 months or so?
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.08.28 05:33:00 -
[2041 ]
Originally by: Stephar I really doubt they will acknowledge that there is a problem until people begin abandoning Amarr en masse. And even after that, it will probably take at least 6 months before the problem is addressed. They've been talking about fixing ECM for, uh, 6 months or so? and everyone abandonned ECM en masse? this is a different kind of problem it's stupid for amarr specs to leave amarr, they shouldn't leave amarr cuz they specced and deserve a good race
Vicious Phoenix
Posted - 2006.08.28 06:12:00 -
[2042 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Edited by: Nyxus on 25/08/2006 14:33:24 The graph also shows how the zealot truly lacks in comparison to the Vagabond. Vaga has more speed, more damage, not cap dependant...... The cap part I agree with, but a Zealot out damages a vaga and it has a superior tank. I'm on the fence about the Zealot needing a 5th turret, leaning towards no because they hit pretty hard as is. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
MacQueen
AmarrParty of One
Posted - 2006.08.28 12:53:00 -
[2043 ]
Originally by: Raz Mataz P.S. This isn't a general Amarr whine, its a Zealot whine. Tachygeddons and other popular Amarr PvP ships perform just fine when compared with their counterparts. The Zealot, when compared to other top of the line HACs just doesn't come close. I've cut this one from another thread, it actually make me feel a bit... well, something, hard to say.. funny, sad.. all mix up. Zealot is truly Amarr, what the point to have another thread, trying to be something different ?? Oh, yeah, just not to be in the group of Legendary Amarr Whiners of 69 pages ??? Maybe it's close enough to be kind of Women Whining, blah... Everybody have their own point of view, you see this is the problem, someone else see that is the problem, but in conclusion, all that is : Amarr Problem. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Borasao
Posted - 2006.08.28 14:13:00 -
[2044 ]
Quote: I have just been in my first lvl 3 mission with my proph and have had my ass handed to me on a plate. I'm Caldari and have cross trained into Amarr. I've done some L3s in a Prophecy without too much problem. Granted, with the Ferox I can run all L3s with a passive tank and not warp out of any of them. Which mission were you running? I've fitted my prophecy in a way to where I can run the AB constantly with three active hardeners (don't have Hull Upgrades 5 yet) and all 6 guns firing. I can't do all that and run the MAR2 constantly but I didn't have to run it constantly in the toughest mission I've tackled in it so far (not the toughest L3).
Siro
Eye of God Axiom Empire
Posted - 2006.08.29 16:36:00 -
[2045 ]
Could someone tell my why the apoc is the only tier 2 battleship to not have either a rate of fire or damage bonus?
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.29 17:48:00 -
[2046 ]
Originally by: Siro Could someone tell my why the apoc is the only tier 2 battleship to not have either a rate of fire or damage bonus? Because it has eight turrets and it's meant to be a tanking ship. I stress the meant part.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.29 17:58:00 -
[2047 ]
And unlike gallente and minmatar ships amarr have no "base" ROF or damage bonus on gunships. Amarr: -cap Caldari: +range Minmatar: -ROF Gallente: +damage
Commander Thrawn
Fluffy rabbit killer's inc
Posted - 2006.08.29 18:04:00 -
[2048 ]
so is this gonna reach 100 pages or what. has their been a dev reply yet, i stopped checking once it reached 60?
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.08.29 18:10:00 -
[2049 ]
Nope. You can easily see this by (the lack of) a golden border at the thread (like at the EW and quickfit sticky, for example). I also would be greatly suprised if there would be one eventually.
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.08.29 18:10:00 -
[2050 ]
Click here for all your developer voyeuristic tendencies, or just to keep up-to-date.
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.08.30 00:51:00 -
[2051 ]
It would be not realistic to say the devs havnt seen this thread. If I were them I would be very weary to post any kind of response too, however, I think most of us are just looking for the devs to at least say we are looking into the matter, I am going to make a post in the development section that asks some questions, but is not going to list any spacific numbers, just contain some numbers that I crunch and ask to specify exactly what the devs say each race is or compare that to how I feel the idea behind each race is supposed to be.
Areconus
Posted - 2006.08.30 01:12:00 -
[2052 ]
Edited by: Areconus on 30/08/2006 01:12:19 Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Calisto Cody i dont like the idea of a explosive crystal..sounds wrong tbh (yes i fly amarr ) Lasers are light which is one of the purest form of energy. Shooting very high amounts of energy to anything that's made of atoms will cause either neutrons or electrons to start shifting in those atoms and thus the making the atoms react with each other in one form or another. There's couple of possible reactions, one is fusion of two or more atoms which makes the atoms combine to something totally different or the electrons and lose atoms may turn into ionized cloud in a rapid fashion thus causing an "explosion" of sorts, more accurately a gazillion atomic explosions. Totally unrelated, the body heat which human body creates is caused by constant combustion in our cells. It's just so small scaled that we don't see it but chemically we all are constantly exploding rofl, i didnt read but 1 or 2 pages tbh... dude, our body does not heat up because it is exploding rofl...its because the sunlight heats up the atmosphere, the earth's surface, and the air around you, and the heat is then transferred to your body when it comes in contact with that air..... If you were correct however, they why do people still feel hot on a 100 degree day sitting in their house? I mean they shouldnt right? those sunbeams arent making them explode because they arent hitting them directly right?
Krav
Egad Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.30 01:24:00 -
[2053 ]
Edited by: Krav on 30/08/2006 01:26:16 Originally by: Deathbarrage you have people that ''fly'' amarr you have people that ''can fly'' amarr imo only the 1st have reason to speak here, and yeah atm since most people in eve armor tank and the ones that shield tank still manage to get their EM resist @ 75%, amarr are getting a bit behind, least CCP can do is switch dmg to 2/3 thermal and 1/3 EM instead of 1/3 thermal and 2/3 EM Not sure if I've said this before but... /signed! /agreed! /clap! I have flown geddon, apoc, dominix, megathron, and raven in pve. The only ships I would use in pve is the dominix and the raven. They can do any damage type, and their tanks are awesome regardless. I will never mix projectiles with amarr ships, imo that's a bandaid on a problem with the ships. How would anyone like being told, that after training your tech II projectiles for your tempest, only useful weapon systems would be lasers (yeah that's farfetched but stick with me)? You'd feel slighted, too. For pvp, I'm learning more towards gallente than anything. Drones 4tw! Also, Amarr BS's are forced to work with having very few midslots, making pvp with a lot of things like web, scramble, ab, on the ship harder to do. Gallente ships have this in spades, works fine for them. I love Amarr ships though, and will probably never stop flying them. They are my first love <3 Krav EDIT: Fixing the implied subject in some sentences. =====This sig is fixed \o/ I hope...
Tronm
Posted - 2006.08.30 02:18:00 -
[2054 ]
Originally by: Areconus dude, our body does not heat up because it is exploding rofl...its because the sunlight heats up the atmosphere, the earth's surface, and the air around you, and the heat is then transferred to your body when it comes in contact with that air..... Wrong. Humans are not cold blooded and thus produce their own heat through a process which I believe is called cellular respiration.
Areconus
Posted - 2006.08.30 02:29:00 -
[2055 ]
Edited by: Areconus on 30/08/2006 02:29:53 Originally by: Tronm Originally by: Areconus dude, our body does not heat up because it is exploding rofl...its because the sunlight heats up the atmosphere, the earth's surface, and the air around you, and the heat is then transferred to your body when it comes in contact with that air..... Wrong. Humans are not cold blooded and thus produce their own heat through a process which I believe is called cellular respiration. part of the heat may be from that, but it is the laws of physics that say part of the heat comes from the surrounding environment...irregardless....we are not exploding
Siakel
Posted - 2006.08.30 04:02:00 -
[2056 ]
The sun also isn't firing superconcentrated beams of energy at us.
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.08.30 04:20:00 -
[2057 ]
Damn you guys sure know how to argue over important things such as: "what the hell you want" and "gamebalance" instead of roleplay and scientific babble... gg guys _________________________________________________
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.08.30 04:56:00 -
[2058 ]
IF YOU POST HERE READ THIS!
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.08.30 05:39:00 -
[2059 ]
Originally by: DrEiak IF YOU POST HERE READ THIS! Well done.
eLLioTT wave
Art of War Cult of War
Posted - 2006.08.30 09:31:00 -
[2060 ]
Originally by: DrEiak IF YOU POST HERE READ THIS! The Doc has a point
Miri Tirzan
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.08.30 12:04:00 -
[2061 ]
Well, I happen to agree that Amarr is best at nothing right now. The suggested changes with Controlled Burst and Laser Cap usages would be nice if there was either a resist bonus or armor amount bonus to replace it. But since the 2EANM+DC problem is still in the game, I would like to see EM and Thermal damages switched for crystals. It would make lasers a little weaker vs shields but more effective vs Armor. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.01 04:27:00 -
[2062 ]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed." LOL
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.01 07:24:00 -
[2063 ]
Amarr in my point of view are the best PvE ships , Zealot owns Lvl3 Missions or 0.0 rats Apoc owns in Lvl 4 missions , abso now owns in lvl 4 missions but problem is Amarr aint new player friendly like the other races , u need alot of skill to make em any really good use but when it comes to pvp they lack excpet for the Curse lol y ? Amarr are ment for prolonged fights but how can that be when the cap bonus it has doesnt make a difference with the cap usage. everyone says Amarr has no ammo but i say they do and its Cap. and come on whats with the dam fittings, Lasers have more fitting than any other gun CPU/PG, Launchers have a slight more cpu sucks that u have to 2 fit 2 RCU2s to fit 8 tachs i think a good solution for Amarr is make them use a % less cap then they use now, will help alot i love amarr but i wish i took minnie race best verstile ships ever. Amarr worse close range ships and 2nd worst long range ships after caldari and then now after kali caldari will be the best long range ship and amarr goes to worst in short/long range it can TANK u say ............ noooooooooooo lol what i like about the tempest is that u can fit 6 autocannons and 2 nos and do same damage on Apoc 6 mega pulses and 2 nos will gimp its already gimped damage and its slow , so the tempest gets closer fast and owns and it can even use ecm and u screwed. i still love Amarr though and Geddon owns and i think the abbaddon will own cause its purely ment for pvp , can fire for 1 min and poof u have to get out but in that 1 min u will do the most insane damage ever. as Em/Them goes they ok i dont think they should be changed or add more damage. Amarr need more verstilatiy and thats enough for this post .................. Gets flame outfit on and no i didnt read the 70 pages im not insane lol The Master Of Chaos
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.01 10:43:00 -
[2064 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 01/09/2006 10:44:18 Well, the EoM NPC faction got one thing right - they shield tank their apocs and geddons, and use hybrids and torps. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Tehra Neru
Posted - 2006.09.01 22:44:00 -
[2065 ]
http://eve.battleclinic.com/eve_online/item_database.php?id=i12830 ? I see explosive damaging crystal..
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.09.01 22:48:00 -
[2066 ]
There's also a shield extender with 400,000 HP in the database. That doesn't mean it's ever coming close to hitting TQ. (the devs have played around with all sorts of crap in the database in the past, and never seem to delete it afterwards)
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.09.02 01:35:00 -
[2067 ]
I was thinking about the Apoc the other day............ What about changing the capacitor bonus to a damage bonus? With 8 Beams it would have volley damage over the geddon, but not DPS. Close range it would have more grid for the extra turret but lack the geddons drone bay. Wouldn't outdamage any of the other racial BS but at least it would be more useful for PvP. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Monoklas
Posted - 2006.09.02 02:36:00 -
[2068 ]
I need help fitting out a geddon for lvl 3 missions because my Proph doesnt cut it. Nuf said.
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross
Posted - 2006.09.02 02:51:00 -
[2069 ]
Here's to page 70! Congratulations, May you have many pages more o/ (thanks to whomever originally found this animgif and posted on forums. i had to find on google cause i couldn't find thread) /me diggs through his pockets.. "now where did i put the relevence for this post.... ah, here it is" give the poor buggers their expl crystals already
JoeT
AmarrDevils collective
Posted - 2006.09.02 03:15:00 -
[2070 ]
Originally by: LordChaos Amarr need more verstilatiy /signed ---
Spardademon
Posted - 2006.09.02 03:50:00 -
[2071 ]
Edited by: Spardademon on 02/09/2006 03:56:05 Originally by: Areconus Edited by: Areconus on 30/08/2006 01:12:19 Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Calisto Cody i dont like the idea of a explosive crystal..sounds wrong tbh (yes i fly amarr ) Lasers are light which is one of the purest form of energy. Shooting very high amounts of energy to anything that's made of atoms will cause either neutrons or electrons to start shifting in those atoms and thus the making the atoms react with each other in one form or another. There's couple of possible reactions, one is fusion of two or more atoms which makes the atoms combine to something totally different or the electrons and lose atoms may turn into ionized cloud in a rapid fashion thus causing an "explosion" of sorts, more accurately a gazillion atomic explosions. Totally unrelated, the body heat which human body creates is caused by constant combustion in our cells. It's just so small scaled that we don't see it but chemically we all are constantly exploding rofl, i didnt read but 1 or 2 pages tbh... dude, our body does not heat up because it is exploding rofl...its because the sunlight heats up the atmosphere, the earth's surface, and the air around you, and the heat is then transferred to your body when it comes in contact with that air..... If you were correct however, they why do people still feel hot on a 100 degree day sitting in their house? I mean they shouldnt right? those sunbeams arent making them explode because they arent hitting them directly right? Biology 101! Humans live by the energy transporter known as ATP. ATP is created in aerobic situations by the transformation of glucose into carbon dioxide, water and energy. The energy is used to transform ADP into ATP. Each mole of glucose produces 38 moles of ATP, with 2 being lost in transfer into the mitochondria half the time. That being said, the reactions leading to ATP production is oxidation, the same as used in an automobile engine. The cells break the glucose into smaller compounds, and oxidize various chemicals to create energy vehicles (NADP and FADH2 iirc) to run the ATPase pumps, which lead to ATP production. So it's like a car, you use little drops of gasoline to burn and make the engine run. That being said, if it looks chemically complex, it is, and when it is, it makes heat. A lot of the potential energy of glucose is lost to heat, so much that only your baseline metabolism would be enough, without heat regulation, to make your body temperature go up 1.1¦C every hour!!! In conclusion, the human body does not heat up because of the environment: more often that not, it is our body that heat by convection, radiation and evaporation into nature. Direct physical contact with air results in 2 % of the heat exchange of our bodies. Any deregulations of homeostasis can lead to hypothermia or hyperthermia, leading to the catastrophic life-threatening heat stroke, but I'll stop now :) P.-S. Not sure that I gave the exact terms, and my book is 178 km away, so no, I will not go and get it. P.-P.-S. I still reiterate that Amarr need to become tank gods :p
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.02 06:42:00 -
[2072 ]
So Tux, you Just said that you just got back from vacation, you ready to touch on this subject yet or are we having to go all the way to 100 pages?? I keep hearing rumors of the Apoc being fixed, but Dont You Guys Dare put a bandaid an a severed limb. I can see you guys now says, "Lets fix the apoc, maybe they'll be happy then, cause I dont want to fix all of their ships" Fixing 1 ship is unacceptable, when all of them minus our t2 ships & geddon have the same issues. I've patiently been waiting for an answer about amarr. I have approx 50 mil skill points, all in amarr...I fly & own a dread & carrier. I'm seriously considering trading the character for a similar Gallente character. I dont want to, but the issue is continously ignored. Our Issues are just so many its stupid. 1) 2nd bonus being a cap bonus on majority of ships sucks. 2) EM Damage is weak, we need some sort of compensation. 3) Lack of mids make us suck at pvp, can do ew or defend against it....all those mods take up cpu or mids or both. Neither of which we have to spare. 4) All of the above problems leave us lacking in roles. Are we tankers? Shield is superior, Are we Nos/Tracking disrupting boats? Only 3 ships fit that role. Best Gankers? Not anymore, Damage mod Stacking nerf took care of that. Solutions?? There are hundreds of them, if not over 1000 ideas in this thread. Read them, Comment on them. If not, I hope everyone drops playing Amarr & you feel stupid because you didn't fix them.
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.02 09:59:00 -
[2073 ]
Originally by: LordChaos Amarr in my point of view are the best PvE ships , Zealot owns Lvl3 Missions or 0.0 rats Apoc owns in Lvl 4 missions , abso now owns in lvl 4 missions but problem is Amarr aint new player friendly like the other races , u need alot of skill to make em any really good use but when it comes to pvp they lack excpet for the Curse lol y ? Amarr are ment for prolonged fights but how can that be when the cap bonus it has doesnt make a difference with the cap usage. everyone says Amarr has no ammo but i say they do and its Cap. and come on whats with the dam fittings, Lasers have more fitting than any other gun CPU/PG, Launchers have a slight more cpu sucks that u have to 2 fit 2 RCU2s to fit 8 tachs i think a good solution for Amarr is make them use a % less cap then they use now, will help alot i love amarr but i wish i took minnie race best verstile ships ever. Amarr worse close range ships and 2nd worst long range ships after caldari and then now after kali caldari will be the best long range ship and amarr goes to worst in short/long range it can TANK u say ............ noooooooooooo lol what i like about the tempest is that u can fit 6 autocannons and 2 nos and do same damage on Apoc 6 mega pulses and 2 nos will gimp its already gimped damage and its slow , so the tempest gets closer fast and owns and it can even use ecm and u screwed. i still love Amarr though and Geddon owns and i think the abbaddon will own cause its purely ment for pvp , can fire for 1 min and poof u have to get out but in that 1 min u will do the most insane damage ever. as Em/Them goes they ok i dont think they should be changed or add more damage. Amarr need more verstilatiy and thats enough for this post .................. Gets flame outfit on and no i didnt read the 70 pages im not insane lol Apoc sucks at lvl Ivs IMHO. I dont want to make this sound like I am bashing or anything, but solo apocing is dangerous buisnessness in lvl IV's... Also compared to raven in lvl IV's apoc is nothing... I guess I have to say that caldari are BEST PvE ships, and damn good PvP ships too...
inSpirAcy
CaldariThe Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.09.02 10:44:00 -
[2074 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata If not, I hope everyone drops playing Amarr & you feel stupid because you didn't fix them. But not me, I like to feel special. (and it's also a handy excuse for my sucky PvP skills, I can blame it on the ship )
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.09.02 10:49:00 -
[2075 ]
Edited by: Andreask14 on 02/09/2006 10:49:23 I realized something. I realized taht it only takes a weak to train for each race¦s BS and another few days to train all its basic weapon systems. Voila, if i cut that one week off my Amarr BS lvl 5 training i will be abelt o fly a raven with torps and never need to complain again. IN short: I gave in to the dark side.
Xendie
Hunter Killers
Posted - 2006.09.02 11:29:00 -
[2076 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 Edited by: Andreask14 on 02/09/2006 10:49:23 I realized something. I realized taht it only takes a weak to train for each race¦s BS and another few days to train all its basic weapon systems. Voila, if i cut that one week off my Amarr BS lvl 5 training i will be abelt o fly a raven with torps and never need to complain again. IN short: I gave in to the dark side. i sold my amarr spec character, no point in having it when this character with 10mill less skillpoints can do everything that one could or better, mostly better. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Von Munhausen
CaldariAutomated Industries
Posted - 2006.09.02 18:14:00 -
[2077 ]
/signed Keep going toward 100 (crossing fingers for dev blog post)
Miri Tirzan
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.09.02 19:52:00 -
[2078 ]
Originally by: Xendie i sold my amarr spec character, no point in having it when this character with 10mill less skillpoints can do everything that one could or better, mostly better. That is silly, any one that has played the game a while will tell you that ships and weapon systems fall in and out of favor as CCP nerfs or buffs them depending on the mood! Yes, I am still pushing for switching EM and Thermal on crystals and making a lot of the problems go away. Well, the fitting for beams being too high or Amarr having no short range weapons due to tracking... but besides that, oh and the Tier 3 BS being the same as both the T1 and T2 with none of the good features. But really, besides that... great ships. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Valtirix
GallenteCereal Killerz Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.02 22:34:00 -
[2079 ]
Originally by: Spardademon Edited by: Spardademon on 02/09/2006 03:56:05 Originally by: Areconus Edited by: Areconus on 30/08/2006 01:12:19 Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Calisto Cody i dont like the idea of a explosive crystal..sounds wrong tbh (yes i fly amarr ) Lasers are light which is one of the purest form of energy. Shooting very high amounts of energy to anything that's made of atoms will cause either neutrons or electrons to start shifting in those atoms and thus the making the atoms react with each other in one form or another. There's couple of possible reactions, one is fusion of two or more atoms which makes the atoms combine to something totally different or the electrons and lose atoms may turn into ionized cloud in a rapid fashion thus causing an "explosion" of sorts, more accurately a gazillion atomic explosions. Totally unrelated, the body heat which human body creates is caused by constant combustion in our cells. It's just so small scaled that we don't see it but chemically we all are constantly exploding rofl, i didnt read but 1 or 2 pages tbh... dude, our body does not heat up because it is exploding rofl...its because the sunlight heats up the atmosphere, the earth's surface, and the air around you, and the heat is then transferred to your body when it comes in contact with that air..... If you were correct however, they why do people still feel hot on a 100 degree day sitting in their house? I mean they shouldnt right? those sunbeams arent making them explode because they arent hitting them directly right? Biology 101! Humans live by the energy transporter known as ATP. ATP is created in aerobic situations by the transformation of glucose into carbon dioxide, water and energy. The energy is used to transform ADP into ATP. Each mole of glucose produces 38 moles of ATP, with 2 being lost in transfer into the mitochondria half the time. That being said, the reactions leading to ATP production is oxidation, the same as used in an automobile engine. The cells break the glucose into smaller compounds, and oxidize various chemicals to create energy vehicles (NADP and FADH2 iirc) to run the ATPase pumps, which lead to ATP production. So it's like a car, you use little drops of gasoline to burn and make the engine run. That being said, if it looks chemically complex, it is, and when it is, it makes heat. A lot of the potential energy of glucose is lost to heat, so much that only your baseline metabolism would be enough, without heat regulation, to make your body temperature go up 1.1¦C every hour!!! In conclusion, the human body does not heat up because of the environment: more often that not, it is our body that heat by convection, radiation and evaporation into nature. Direct physical contact with air results in 2 % of the heat exchange of our bodies. Any deregulations of homeostasis can lead to hypothermia or hyperthermia, leading to the catastrophic life-threatening heat stroke, but I'll stop now :) P.-S. Not sure that I gave the exact terms, and my book is 178 km away, so no, I will not go and get it. P.-P.-S. I still reiterate that Amarr need to become tank gods :p congratz biology freak
Aemilus Brutus
Posted - 2006.09.03 02:36:00 -
[2080 ]
I've just about given up hope, the tier 3 BS is a sign that the devs have no clue what role Amarr ships should fill. If we are lucky we get a ship that can be either a better geddon or a better apoc, more likely we get a ship that fails at both gank and tank. I still think the biggest issue with Amarr is the hit em damage took with the new armor skills. Change the ratio of em/thermal so Amarr can do less damage to shields and more to armor, see problem solved! Amarr are now back on par against the increasingly common armor tank while not having an unfair advantage against the uncommon shield tanks. See all balanced, no forcing more shield tanks, no adding a new damage type, and most important.... no nerfing the extremely common and popular armor skills.
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.03 19:17:00 -
[2081 ]
Hey everyone, If you want some numbers for just exactly how amarr are (or arnt) getting jacked depending on how you feel, or how the races are and arent filling the promises they should be go here.
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.03 19:26:00 -
[2082 ]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan Originally by: Xendie i sold my amarr spec character, no point in having it when this character with 10mill less skillpoints can do everything that one could or better, mostly better. That is silly, any one that has played the game a while will tell you that ships and weapon systems fall in and out of favor as CCP nerfs or buffs them depending on the mood! Yes, I am still pushing for switching EM and Thermal on crystals and making a lot of the problems go away. Well, the fitting for beams being too high or Amarr having no short range weapons due to tracking... but besides that, oh and the Tier 3 BS being the same as both the T1 and T2 with none of the good features. But really, besides that... great ships. HAHA yeah, I didnt play eve until it was one month old, but I heard some stories about the races in beta, and how amarr was the end all uber race, and how even caldari were trying to fit tachs.... Of corse I cant verify this, but all of my ideas have stemmed out of what I read about the races before starting eve and how the devs have morphed the races out of those origional concepts.. I guess in beta the gallente were supposed to be EW speacialists too, but obviously this changed by the time I started to play eve. Anyways I think I can prove beyond a doubt that the (albeit necessary) changes CCP made to things in the last 2-3 major patches have taken other races (closer) to what they should be, amarr was the stable race that didnt need a boost before because everyone thought they were fine, sure there were the small arguments, but overall the devs use the philosophy "If it aint broke, dont fix it" This thread sprang because when the devs DID fix what was broke they neglected the fact that they didnt break amarr, they obsoleted it. Why use amarr now that other races do what amarr WAS doing at the same level or better... So that means that if we (amarrs) shut up and didnt voice our concerns we could just adopt the philosophy of why fix, when you can upgrade (to caldari).
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:07:00 -
[2083 ]
not bumped for a while as been getting bored of the game, give me a reason to play again! ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Belial02
AmarrSerenity Technology
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:29:00 -
[2084 ]
Edited by: Belial02 on 04/09/2006 15:29:29 Man thats dramatic when you start to see friends with 33M sp starting to train Gallente because they despair about CCP taking any action to put Amarr on the same level as others. Or suggesting you to start training for projectiles or hybrids instead of lasers. I mean, we pay, as customers our right is to have the same chances and opportunities as others. Or then just change the char creation race selection screen so that people KNOW they' better make a Caldari or Gallente... Sorry, but if such a high percentage of people choose to fly those ships it should ring a bell in the devs heads!
The Armin
Royal Hiigaran Navy
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:31:00 -
[2085 ]
Tier 3's. Caldari: zomg optimal o0, we can't touch this ship if he has a covop buddy Gallente: A better blasterboat ? I who thought the blasterthron rocked already. Minmatar: The ability to restore the most shield ingame. Looking at all of this, nice ! I'm very glad that my fellow gamers gets a new toy to play with. Though, lets take a look at Amarr(In wich I decided to train \o) Urr what does Amarr get ? Uh yeah a ship that can do more dps than Geddon. Or tank more than the Apoc. But wth, we didn't need that ! We actually needed something different, not the same as tier1/2, nor a hybrid between the two. A drone boat fine, a dmg and rof bonus fine (but would run outta cap soonish). I just hope by the time I'm finished specialized in Amarr they'd get boosted by like zomg a lot :P Cause they sux and it aint a secret.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:57:00 -
[2086 ]
Originally by: The Armin Tier 3's. Caldari: zomg optimal o0, we can't touch this ship if he has a covop buddy Gallente: A better blasterboat ? I who thought the blasterthron rocked already. Minmatar: The ability to restore the most shield ingame. Looking at all of this, nice ! I'm very glad that my fellow gamers gets a new toy to play with. Though, lets take a look at Amarr(In wich I decided to train \o) Urr what does Amarr get ? Uh yeah a ship that can do more dps than Geddon. Or tank more than the Apoc. But wth, we didn't need that ! We actually needed something different, not the same as tier1/2, nor a hybrid between the two. A drone boat fine, a dmg and rof bonus fine (but would run outta cap soonish). I just hope by the time I'm finished specialized in Amarr they'd get boosted by like zomg a lot :P Cause they sux and it aint a secret. Well, I have trained up Caldari BS for now, and not regretting it. I just which I could get a refund on my 60% complete Amarr BS lvl5 :) ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.04 19:35:00 -
[2087 ]
Welcome to my world, I am 100% amarr spec'ed. Just broke 30M SP all in lasers, starship skills, engineering, mechanic, drones, learning, and recently R&D. I have less then 1M SP in missles, and under 3M SP in drones. I havnt always had a problem with the way things are, but I have gone to war on these forums just to try and proove a point... The dev's need to figure out what amarr are supposed to do, right now we can only be equal to or worse then other races, since the things amarr did best have been obsoleted, or transfered to other races. My goal recently has been to make threads that hopefully a browsing dev or CCP employee can see and either agree with what I am saying, or think about how their current system is functioning. Perhaps CCP can at least tell us what they think our ships are SUPPOSED to be doing...
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.09.04 20:46:00 -
[2088 ]
Its obvious what the Devs had in mind when designing amarr. The real amarrian ships, as stated in the descriptions, are: Punisher Omen,Maller Geddon,Apoc All other have been "newly develpoed", "recently designed", or are "deviating from the stereotype amarrian design philosophy". It is only t1 that is relevant when trying to figure out the original design purpose, because all t2 ships of the same class of all races fill the same niche only racially flavoured, like the interdictors. So, what do the classic amariran ships provide you with ? Punisher, Maller and Apoc provide you with the strongest potential in armor tanking of their class and tier. Thats it. These three ships are the best armor tankers in the game, judging by their boni, their slot layout, their raw stats and their descriptions. Sadly, the truth is that even the greatest tank wont save you in the days of concentrated sniper fire. Thus, the basic issue with the punisher, maller and apoc is the fact that they DO fill their role, and they do it good enough, but their ROLE is obsolete. Firepower >>>>> Tank anyday. But the amarrians have ships that specialize in firepower. The Omen and the Geddon. These ships put out 33% more damage from their guns in a shorter amount of time than any other turret in the game. Additionally, they have an ample amount of low slots that can be used to provide EVEN MORE DPS. In terms of raw damage, lasers are the undisputed kings, and always have been. Even now, a pulse geddon does out-dps a blaster boat in terms of RAW DPS. Sounds good. The truth is different however, because there always were drawbacks, and after many years of patching, only more and more drawback were added, but nothing was done to compensate. -Amarrians have the worst short-range weapons, because pulses have the lowest tracking of all turrets. -The damage combo EM/Therm, with 45% to 100% EM, is tanked the best by the now standard EANII+DC tank. And at the same times all other turret damge combos are tanked less. -Amarrian long-range weapons have the best tracking of all turrets. However, they do need that tracking because they also have the worst effective optimal range, after boni, compared to hybrids. And they do less raw damage than artillery. SO, both amarrian weapons systems, the pulses and the beams, are best used at medium ranges of 20 to 40km, without skills. That is where their DPS peak, if you dont use tracking enhancers. If there is no transversal and no tank, pulses would outdamage blasters of the same kind by 7% in raw DPS, with the same class of ammunition (mf and am). Beams woould outdamage Rails by 9%, if there was no tank and no transversal with radio vs iron ammo. These percantages are further raised by the 33% more damage a lvl 5 geddon or omen can provide, lets not forget aout that. So this is where the assumption that lasers have a built in damage-mod stems from.In theory lasers do have a built in damage mod, amplified by the gank ship¦s boni. In reality, this advantage is not true. Against EANII tanks all other turrets will outdamage them. And thanks to low tracking, pulses are the worst short-range weapon there is. They really are medium range weapons. So, what to do when the best range of the amarrian gank ships is a medium range of 20 to 40km???? Your only viable choices are to snipe, where you will still do less damage than all other turret snipers, or to bring a webbing tackler friends how keeps your prey above 20km range. And that is why all amarrian gank ships are dubbed fleetships nowadays, scince they are not viable solo AT ALL. Lets not even start about the mid-slots. Conclusion: Tankers are useless. Gankers are flawed and out-ganked, as of recently. The "classical amarrian design" is simply out-dated so to speak. It either gets some perks or you can burry it alltogether.
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.04 21:05:00 -
[2089 ]
I understand what you are saying, there are some good armor tank amarr ships. But I think laser cap usage is the problem and ALL our ships with 10% cap reduction on lasers should be changed to some other bonus that affects armor tanking. (so ships like arby would not have this since it doesnt get 10% cap reduction). At the same time, I think laser cap should be reduced a bit so that amarr ships can still use them, I think the BEST way to do that is change controlled burst to 10% (only helps amarr and gallente, and RAIL caldari anyways). But also posibly a flat 25% cap reduction (which would make laser cap equal on any ship they can be fitted on) and would make laser cap exactly what is right now, only with the benefit of more amarr ships being able to tank better. Of corse this would mean that the abbadon would need different bonii, but that wouldnt bother me, as almost all amarr ships would need at least one new bonus. Anyways this is just part of my T1 amarr ships need to have more focus on armor then they currently do solution, mixed with making sure lasers are still usable if amarr lost the -10% laser cap which is a Bullshista ship bonus to have on 90% of our ships. But then again I believe that ANY bonus that is required to make a ship work is bogus, ships should work on their own merits, and bonuses should be used to make one ship different from another, not make all your ships the same :/
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.09.04 21:23:00 -
[2090 ]
The capacitor is the ammunition of the amarr. I dont think that will be changed, hence the insane cap-use and the corresponding bonus. Furthermore, no matter how high the bonus or the hitpoints, tanking wont make you kill things, it will just make sure that you die hard. The concept of being the best tankers in the game but having to trade cap, tracking and dps for that feature is one of the most flawed core concepts of EvE. As long as amarr has ships which¦s only major feature is the ability to tank, like the maller or the apoc, amarr will suck. Tanking just can not be superior to firepower in any war-game. Its not possible due to focus-fire, gang-warfare, NOS, the fact that you cant scare any aggressor off by being passiv. Ships, or any unit in any game, that has a passive feature as its strongpoint, like tanking, WILL LOSE. Its a dogma actually, and an inevitable truth, that you cant win a fight by being passive. That is why half of the amarrian ships are fundamentally useless in PvP.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.04 21:58:00 -
[2091 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 ...If there is no transversal and no tank, pulses would outdamage blasters of the same kind by 7% in raw DPS, with the same class of ammunition (mf and am). Beams woould outdamage Rails by 9%, if there was no tank and no transversal with radio vs iron ammo... Er..what kind of math are you using here? Without shipboni beams do 15-16% more dps, with shipboni rails do 7-8% more dps. Without reloads though. Assuming max gunnery+rapid fire skills a 250mm II + 25% damage bonus will do over a "shoot clip empty+reload" phase 2% more dps than a heavy beam II. Without the damage bonus the heavy beamm II will do 22% more dps. For heavy ion blaster II vs heavy beam II it's Ion 9% more pulse dps without 25% damage bonus, 37% more with. For a "shoot clip empty+reload" phase these numbers are 7%/33% more dps for the Ion.
Awox
Posted - 2006.09.05 01:04:00 -
[2092 ]
lol amarr
Evol1
J.H.E.N.R Pure.
Posted - 2006.09.05 02:02:00 -
[2093 ]
Originally by: Awox lol amarr Thanks
Byzan Zwyth
Posted - 2006.09.05 03:00:00 -
[2094 ]
Edited by: Byzan Zwyth on 05/09/2006 03:00:55 reduce fitting and cap use costs to a respectable lvl change the cap use bonus on ships to something else like damage seems stupid that the bonus on amar ships is just to make lasers usable and the bonus on the other races ships make their weapons better. Any ship that just gets the cap use reduction bonus may as well just use projectiles. And the ships that get a rate of fire bonus just use cap even faster >.< ---------------------- Gallente Cruiser Pilot
Altai Saker
Omniscient Order
Posted - 2006.09.05 04:47:00 -
[2095 ]
lol, someone said pulse do more dps than blasters, how silly.
Ivan Kinsikor
AmarrCAD Inc.
Posted - 2006.09.05 06:13:00 -
[2096 ]
Yanno, I had thought that I was just having a run of bad luck lately, but I guess my slowly growin feeling about the amarr is shared by many. I really do hate seeing my corpmates drone on about how badass their ships are, and I'm just not getting results from my amarr ships. On the plus side with Eve, I don't have to roll a new character, just start training a different race's ships. Yey. Good thing gallente have a few things in common with amarr skill wise (funny how that works). Killing is business and business is good.
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.09.05 07:02:00 -
[2097 ]
Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor Yanno, I had thought that I was just having a run of bad luck lately, but I guess my slowly growin feeling about the amarr is shared by many. I really do hate seeing my corpmates drone on about how badass their ships are, and I'm just not getting results from my amarr ships. On the plus side with Eve, I don't have to roll a new character, just start training a different race's ships. Yey. Good thing gallente have a few things in common with amarr skill wise (funny how that works). insome ways, luckly for me I started speccing in the curse so I have drone int 5 and combat drone 5 etc... along with 6mil sps in gunnery so hopefully my tranisiton will be fairly smooth ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
Posted - 2006.09.05 11:08:00 -
[2098 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 ----- The "classical amarrian design" is simply out-dated so to speak. It either gets some perks or you can burry it alltogether. Excellent summation of the current state of Amarr. Why have the devs not responded? There are many useful ideas put forward in this thread, and very real concerns on the behalf of Amarr players. Some critics point to snips of the thread and claim there is nothing substantial here but that is absolutly untrue. Posts such as Andreask14's highlight just how much substance there is. And don't forget, there are seventy one pages now. We aren't asking for Kali to be put on hold while the Amarr problems are solved. Just simply letting us know that you are aware of these matters, and that they will be examined as time allows for balance would go a long way.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.05 11:54:00 -
[2099 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 05/09/2006 11:54:51 Originally by: Madcat Adams Originally by: Andreask14 ----- The "classical amarrian design" is simply out-dated so to speak. It either gets some perks or you can burry it alltogether. Excellent summation of the current state of Amarr. Why have the devs not responded? There are many useful ideas put forward in this thread, and very real concerns on the behalf of Amarr players. Some critics point to snips of the thread and claim there is nothing substantial here but that is absolutly untrue. Posts such as Andreask14's highlight just how much substance there is. And don't forget, there are seventy one pages now. We aren't asking for Kali to be put on hold while the Amarr problems are solved. Just simply letting us know that you are aware of these matters, and that they will be examined as time allows for balance would go a long way. The way I see it, I doubt any Dev will respond anytime soon. But if you baise your view on the assumption that if a dev were to respond today, it will take around 6 months to a year before it gets fixed... Seriously! So the question you need to ask yourself is this - Is it worth flying gimped ships for 6months-1year? Or spend a month to have superior skills in Caldari BS & Shield/Missile trees? I picked the Latter, and I am not regretting it. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.09.05 12:07:00 -
[2100 ]
After reading all 2123 posts i have decided... i need a wee. But more than anything i think amarr needs to have more drone bays on their ships, maybe not as large as gallente ones but never the less they seem to be the drone underdog of eve. concidering amarr weapons eat threw untanked sheild like a hungry monkey with a banana... maybe they should be given explosive drone bonuses and maybe +5 drone bay to all ships (except certain ones such as the arby and umm others. I think a 5% bonus to exp drones will give them the edge they need. Please remove the crappy bonus that amarr recieves to their lasers capacitor use... it doesnt help them in the least. reduce laser cap usage by 25% and remove the ship bonus... its a waste of a ship bonus.
Wulfgard
MinmatarThe Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.05 12:27:00 -
[2101 ]
Both Amarr and Minmatars are getting the short end of the stick with the Tiers 3 BS. Why is that? The other 2 races get ships with a clear and useful bonus: Caldari wtfpwn sniper boat, Gallente best close range dmg boat. It is only fair the other 2 races get a best "something BS", could be tank, could be drones, could be nos ect... Plz don't give us and hybrid bonus that ends being subpar
Ricco Lonestar
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.09.05 12:30:00 -
[2102 ]
Edited by: Ricco Lonestar on 05/09/2006 12:31:39 Originally by: south24 Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor Yanno, I had thought that I was just having a run of bad luck lately, but I guess my slowly growin feeling about the amarr is shared by many. I really do hate seeing my corpmates drone on about how badass their ships are, and I'm just not getting results from my amarr ships. On the plus side with Eve, I don't have to roll a new character, just start training a different race's ships. Yey. Good thing gallente have a few things in common with amarr skill wise (funny how that works). insome ways, luckly for me I started speccing in the curse so I have drone int 5 and combat drone 5 etc... along with 6mil sps in gunnery so hopefully my tranisiton will be fairly smooth 0 to 30km+ optimal with that. Fact both take some time to give the desired effect. But ship setup is very versatile. It can be rigted for speed ganks (mwd+nano+stabs+capinjector). Orbit at 30 km keepig your nos and drones + eventually EW going:)!! Shield tanked it can tank better than a raven for some time. Dont forget to try heavy precision missiles vs enemies drones if needed. Hmmm dont let this ship loose on own faction if using it's trackingdisruptors. For the rest just wait on the tier 3 BS.
Auryn Darkblade
Posted - 2006.09.05 14:38:00 -
[2103 ]
Add me to the list of Amarr pilots who have realized that even IF (and this is a huge if) CCP makes any changes to Amarr ships, it wont be for 6 months to a year. CCP is just WAY to slow at updating this game. Luckily I was training up skills for a Curse / Pilgrim (the only Amarr ships which don't suck btw) so my transistion to Gallente should be fairly painless. I'm still amazed that there has been so much feedback about the Amarr issue on these boards, and CCP has never replied, not once. It almost makes me feel like putting my character on a really long skill train, quitting the game and coming back later. Who wants to play an MMO where the company running the show has absolutly no two way communication with the player base on balance issues?
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.05 14:47:00 -
[2104 ]
nice to see we can get a dev response for going over 30k online, but after months of this post and 71 pages we cannot get the same. not asking for a huge post or even explaining what you are planning on doing to it. just a "hey we have seen the post and are looking in to the amarr situation" or "hey we have seen the post and you amarr pilots dont know what you are talking about".i think that would at least give the amarr pilots some direction.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.06 08:22:00 -
[2105 ]
I have said it once, and I will say it again - even if a dev decides to "fix" amarr - it will be 6 months to a year before anything ever happens. So much for Amarr being the kings of turrets & tanking. The Rokh is now the king turretboat and I look forward to seeing it snipe at t2 ranges with t1 ammo. Caldari BS is the way to go folks ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Warnings
Posted - 2006.09.06 21:10:00 -
[2106 ]
CCP, If you coulnd't change laser ... Change laser skill by projo or hybrid and change bonus on all ships. You don't balance laser, you remove this weapon. It's not usable actually ... You make more damage and have better tracking/damage with projo than pulse lol (If you don't have bonus on the ship). Compare the mega pulse t2 with 800mm t2 ... (Tracking/2, rof too bad, high consumption, 2 bad damage for close, 1 bad damage for long range (pulse turret) | tracking*2, rof too high, no consumption, 3 damages for close, 2 for long range (800mm)
Monoklas
Posted - 2006.09.06 22:06:00 -
[2107 ]
To 'fix' amarr(i dont really have an opinion now) would everyone be happy if CCP just gave lasers explosive crystals and lower fitting requirements? Just wanted to know if that would be a compromise for everyone rather than going OMGDEYRSOOGIMPED!!!11111
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.09.06 22:30:00 -
[2108 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 06/09/2006 22:31:18 Lol @ all these people that dont have a clue how the nerfbat swings around targeting a new race each time. Ganktastic times are over, if you want a race that allways pwns train caldari...with oncoming rokh there isnt a thing they wont own. Gallente purely got lucky with drone changes, a hybrid boost after, may i say,+ 2 years and multispecs. Also the minmatar got boosted finally after being one of the weaker races lately... There was a time that people fitted howitzers on apocs, but there also was a time people fitted tachyon on scorpions... The nerfbat goes round and round, round and round, round and round. _________________________________________________
Kldraina
Posted - 2006.09.06 22:41:00 -
[2109 ]
I remember when I first started playing, having a pirate attack our mining group in low sec, using a Raven with Lasers. Back then, lasers were king, and the gank geddon was one of the most feared ships in low sec. Kinda nice to see things change.
Areconus
Posted - 2006.09.06 23:18:00 -
[2110 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 06/09/2006 22:31:18 Lol @ all these people that dont have a clue how the nerfbat swings around targeting a new race each time. Ganktastic times are over, if you want a race that allways pwns train caldari...with oncoming rokh there isnt a thing they wont own. Gallente purely got lucky with drone changes, a hybrid boost after, may i say,+ 2 years and multispecs. Also the minmatar got boosted finally after being one of the weaker races lately... There was a time that people fitted howitzers on apocs, but there also was a time people fitted tachyon on scorpions... The nerfbat goes round and round, round and round, round and round. Nicely put
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.09.06 23:42:00 -
[2111 ]
Bah, i am not addicted enough for that kind of failed game-design then.
R16v
Posted - 2006.09.07 00:04:00 -
[2112 ]
Can i ask in this how do we get ccp to give us an answer in any of the qestions brought up in this masive topic??? putting explosive and enhancing the tracking would help alot in combat
CB Cyrix
GeoTech
Posted - 2006.09.07 09:42:00 -
[2113 ]
un-nerf the megapulse to what it use to me, and add 25% to all beam tracking, and swap thr for EXP ;)
Belial02
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.09.08 07:42:00 -
[2114 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 Bah, i am not addicted enough for that kind of failed game-design then. Starting to feel the same myself... plus its takes way too long before you can get decent skills... seriously if that was such a great game that you'd get addicted because you have so much to do and could wait for months id be ok.... But then ratting, mining, missions, deds and trade quickly become boring and repetitive as hell... and in the meantime you dont really progress, add to this the fact that if you play amarr you're kinda screwed on may aspects of eve and you find yourself logging in only to change skills before long...
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.09.08 09:52:00 -
[2115 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 08/09/2006 09:53:56 Originally by: Belial02 Edited by: Belial02 on 08/09/2006 07:58:02 Originally by: Andreask14 Bah, i am not addicted enough for that kind of failed game-design then. Starting to feel the same myself... plus its takes way too long before you can get decent skills... seriously if that was such a great game that you'd get addicted because you have so much to do and could wait for months id be ok.... But then ratting, mining, missions, deds and trade quickly become boring and repetitive as hell... and in the meantime you dont really progress, add to this the fact that if you play amarr you're kinda screwed on many aspects of eve and you find yourself logging in only to change skills before long... lol again no clue... all the things you named: ratting, no ammo used..good damage mining, apoc with 8 miners 2 missions, again apoc can tank this stuff easily deadspace, again zealot, sac doing tanking while geddon do ganking = win trade, W T F does ammar have to do with that..Your charisma aint high enough? You just dont like the game in general anymore, and you say that "you are screwed on many aspecs using ammar" well name a couple than. and my last add, did you realise this is a pvp game not a npc game? You didnt name that at all. _________________________________________________
Belial02
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.09.08 13:17:00 -
[2116 ]
Edited by: Belial02 on 08/09/2006 13:17:57 Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 08/09/2006 09:53:56 Originally by: Belial02 Edited by: Belial02 on 08/09/2006 07:58:02 Originally by: Andreask14 Bah, i am not addicted enough for that kind of failed game-design then. Starting to feel the same myself... plus its takes way too long before you can get decent skills... seriously if that was such a great game that you'd get addicted because you have so much to do and could wait for months id be ok.... But then ratting, mining, missions, deds and trade quickly become boring and repetitive as hell... and in the meantime you dont really progress, add to this the fact that if you play amarr you're kinda screwed on many aspects of eve and you find yourself logging in only to change skills before long... lol again no clue... all the things you named: ratting, no ammo used..good damage mining, apoc with 8 miners 2 missions, again apoc can tank this stuff easily deadspace, again zealot, sac doing tanking while geddon do ganking = win trade, W T F does ammar have to do with that..Your charisma aint high enough? You just dont like the game in general anymore, and you say that "you are screwed on many aspecs using ammar" well name a couple than. and my last add, did you realise this is a pvp game not a npc game? You didnt name that at all. AFAIK this game is what you do with it. You sound like you didnt read this whole thread as it full with arguments about amarr beeing gimped. Oh sorryi forgot that was you along with that other Gallente who were trolling all along. Dismissing all arguments by just laughing. And yeah im not really interested in eve anymore since it takes so long to taste new things and the rest you usually do becomes utterly boring in the meantime. So its only skill logging and then if it doesnt pay off in a couple of month, ill suspend this account or transfer it.
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.09.08 15:56:00 -
[2117 ]
Edited by: Andreask14 on 08/09/2006 16:02:47 The punisher, the maller, the apoc and the prophecy, as well as all amarrian drones, are effectively useless, scince they compromise firepower, speed, capacitor and tracking just for the ability to have the best armor tanks, which isnt better than any shield tank anyway. The amarrian drones have the highest HP, but less tracking speed and damage mod than the other drones. Can you imagine how redicoulus this is ? Having comabt drones focused on HP when they are there to do damage ??? Its the same with many amarrian ships. Having tanks as the primary feature just doesnt do it.
inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.09.08 16:05:00 -
[2118 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 Having tanks as the primary feature just doesnt do it. I think it does but the compromise has to be right. In the present state of the game I can make a Prophecy tank mildly better than a Brutix (lets go for something reasonably durable, to be fair). But the damage I can get out of a Brutix far exceeds that step up in the tank and that's where it falls over. I'm sure that once upon a time the present stats of the tanks made sense, but they sure don't any more. I am looking forward to the Tier 2 Amarr BC, though, so I can just gank and forget about the rubbish tanks.
DigitalCommunist
Evolution Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.09.08 16:14:00 -
[2119 ]
74 pages and its still going. Wow.. wow . This thread only managed to prove one thing: why democracies fail. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Kerdrak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.09.08 16:44:00 -
[2120 ]
The solution has been said many times, change EM x Thermal damage, at least in some lens. For example: UV, Gamma, XRay and Radio should make more EM than Thermal (like now) and Infrared, Microwave, Standard and Multifrequency should make more Thermal than EM. This would add more realism and balance to the game.
Auryn Darkblade
Posted - 2006.09.08 16:55:00 -
[2121 ]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist 74 pages and its still going. Wow.. wow . This thread only managed to prove one thing: why democracies fail. Well in the last 10 pages of this thread, I have trained up to gallente battleship and Im now running a dominix, I am MUCH happier, so the thread has done something usefull. It's too bad CCP is so lethargic on this, as I will probably never switch back to Amarr from Galente.
tookar
AmarrKrookid
Posted - 2006.09.08 17:30:00 -
[2122 ]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist This thread only managed to prove one thing: why democracies fail. Yep look at all the failed democracies around the world
inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.09.08 17:32:00 -
[2123 ]
Don't mix up democracy and direct democracy. They're very different things. (in the short, we "elect" CCP to deal with problems - we don't get to "vote" on individual problems themselves)
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.09.08 18:45:00 -
[2124 ]
Originally by: Belial02 Edited by: Belial02 on 08/09/2006 13:17:57 Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 08/09/2006 09:53:56 Originally by: Belial02 Edited by: Belial02 on 08/09/2006 07:58:02 Originally by: Andreask14 Bah, i am not addicted enough for that kind of failed game-design then. Starting to feel the same myself... plus its takes way too long before you can get decent skills... seriously if that was such a great game that you'd get addicted because you have so much to do and could wait for months id be ok.... But then ratting, mining, missions, deds and trade quickly become boring and repetitive as hell... and in the meantime you dont really progress, add to this the fact that if you play amarr you're kinda screwed on many aspects of eve and you find yourself logging in only to change skills before long... lol again no clue... all the things you named: ratting, no ammo used..good damage mining, apoc with 8 miners 2 missions, again apoc can tank this stuff easily deadspace, again zealot, sac doing tanking while geddon do ganking = win trade, W T F does ammar have to do with that..Your charisma aint high enough? You just dont like the game in general anymore, and you say that "you are screwed on many aspecs using ammar" well name a couple than. and my last add, did you realise this is a pvp game not a npc game? You didnt name that at all. AFAIK this game is what you do with it. You sound like you didnt read this whole thread as it full with arguments about amarr beeing gimped. Oh sorryi forgot that was you along with that other Gallente who were trolling all along. Dismissing all arguments by just laughing. And yeah im not really interested in eve anymore since it takes so long to taste new things and the rest you usually do becomes utterly boring in the meantime. So its only skill logging and then if it doesnt pay off in a couple of month, ill suspend this account or transfer it. There you go than... Well and to not reading this thread, my flamesuit melted mkay...i dont want to burn myself. _________________________________________________
korrey
Level Five
Posted - 2006.09.08 19:23:00 -
[2125 ]
This thread is sad...not because of whats being said, yeah Amarr on the short end of the stick now, but the people who troll. This thread started out as ideas to help the Amarr race which is now at its knees against any other race. Now all we get is Caldari and Gallente saying Amarr is fine...My real question is, if Amarr is fine...Why dont YOU fly them? And if CCP played EVE with characters we knew about daily, im sure they wouldnt be Amarr... . -Level Five
Elenath
GallenteThe Vindaloo Enema Disasters
Posted - 2006.09.08 19:29:00 -
[2126 ]
Edited by: Elenath on 08/09/2006 19:29:25 Originally by: korrey This thread is sad...not because of whats being said, yeah Amarr on the short end of the stick now, but the people who troll. This thread started out as ideas to help the Amarr race which is now at its knees against any other race. Now all we get is Caldari and Gallente saying Amarr is fine...My real question is, if Amarr is fine...Why dont YOU fly them? And if CCP played EVE with characters we knew about daily, im sure they wouldnt be Amarr... . I fly both Amarr and Caldari... use lasers, missiles, and hybrids... across four accounts... all more than three years old... and guess what - Amarr are fine. What's truly sad about this thread is not the trolling... it's the fact that it keeps getting bumped by a bunch of folks who play the forums more than the game... and because of that... they only parrot what other people tell them instead of finding out for themselves that the game is actually very well-balanced right now. Instead of gathering their own information they bump this stupid thread... and fill it with anedotal crap... which is contagious.
inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.09.08 19:30:00 -
[2127 ]
Edited by: inSpirAcy on 08/09/2006 19:33:10 Originally by: Elenath What's truly sad about this thread is not the trolling... it's the fact that it keeps getting bumped by a bunch of folks who play the forums more than the game... and because of that... they only parrot what other people tell them instead of finding out for themselves that the game is actually very well-balanced right now. What really amazes me is how so many people close their eyes and swear blind that Amarr have things fine. Stop with the anecdotal crap, go back a few pages to Nyxus's summary and address every single point raised with evidence to support your argument. If you can't, you're just trolling. Edit: I even made a link for you, get stuck in. I look forward to it.
Elenath
GallenteThe Vindaloo Enema Disasters
Posted - 2006.09.08 19:38:00 -
[2128 ]
Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: Elenath What's truly sad about this thread is not the trolling... it's the fact that it keeps getting bumped by a bunch of folks who play the forums more than the game... and because of that... they only parrot what other people tell them instead of finding out for themselves that the game is actually very well-balanced right now. What really amazes me is how so many people close their eyes and swear blind that Amarr have things fine. Stop with the anecdotal crap, go back a few pages to Nyxus's summary and address every single point raised with evidence to support your argument. If you can't, you're just trolling. Nyxus's summary is a well put together example of using statistics and 'evidence' in order to further a personal agenda. Aaron Levenstein (a famous author on statistics... and a professor) once said, 'Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, what they conceal is vital.' This thread is a great example of people swallowing whole a group of numbers with which they WANT to agree. There is no PROOF here... there are numbers furthering a cause. Plenty of people have put together very well put together arguments suggesting that Amarr are very well-balanced... and even have it easy. Who do you believe? Who you WANT to believe. That's what everyone does... and it's what this thread is about. Pursuing an agenda with the use of numbers that support one side of the argument. Get over yourself... all of you. If the truth hurts... then I'm sorry. But honesty and facts are not 'trolling'.
inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
Posted - 2006.09.08 19:40:00 -
[2129 ]
Originally by: Elenath Get over yourself... all of you. If the truth hurts... then I'm sorry. But honesty and facts are not 'trolling'. I didn't think you could. Rather than showing how (even one) of Nyxus's points is furthering a personal agenda and not accurate with regards to the game, you just present more anecdotes like "the truth hurts". If you can't see that you're a troll, there's nothing more I can do...
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.09.08 19:46:00 -
[2130 ]
Originally by: Elenath Edited by: Elenath on 08/09/2006 19:29:25 Originally by: korrey This thread is sad...not because of whats being said, yeah Amarr on the short end of the stick now, but the people who troll. This thread started out as ideas to help the Amarr race which is now at its knees against any other race. Now all we get is Caldari and Gallente saying Amarr is fine...My real question is, if Amarr is fine...Why dont YOU fly them? And if CCP played EVE with characters we knew about daily, im sure they wouldnt be Amarr... . I fly both Amarr and Caldari... use lasers, missiles, and hybrids... across four accounts... all more than three years old... and guess what - Amarr are fine. What's truly sad about this thread is not the trolling... it's the fact that it keeps getting bumped by a bunch of folks who play the forums more than the game... and because of that... they only parrot what other people tell them instead of finding out for themselves that the game is actually very well-balanced right now. Instead of gathering their own information they bump this stupid thread... and fill it with anedotal crap... which is contagious. True in many ways, I'm also Caldari/Amarr and I always prefer my Amarr ships. However I still feel EANMII tanking needs a nerf and some of our fittings could use some tweaking. There are small problems here and there, but you can say the same for all four races. But why must my geddon always have a co-pro? Give it some extra CPU and drop the low-slot - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.09.08 19:47:00 -
[2131 ]
Edited by: Dixon on 08/09/2006 19:47:23 - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Elenath
GallenteThe Vindaloo Enema Disasters
Posted - 2006.09.08 19:47:00 -
[2132 ]
Edited by: Elenath on 08/09/2006 19:52:33 Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: Elenath Get over yourself... all of you. If the truth hurts... then I'm sorry. But honesty and facts are not 'trolling'. I didn't think you could. Rather than showing how (even one) of Nyxus's points is furthering a personal agenda and not accurate with regards to the game, you just present more anecdotes like "the truth hurts". If you can't see that you're a troll, there's nothing more I can do... I have no interest in digging up facts that have been presented numerous times to support another side of some foolish argument. If this issue weren't closely balanced then why is it so contentious? Few people argue over killing all the kittens in the world... because it's not a hot topic. When you see a lot of debate you know an issue is near a static balance. Most of the people in this thread compensate for debate by bumping the stupid thread... because it falls off the first page because it's closely balanced. If you want to use this discussion as an excuse to keep this petty thread bumped then feel free. I will no longer argue with a one year 'veteran' (oxymoron, anyone?) who is uncomfortable with facts... let alone be party to trying to educate a bunch of petulant gamers.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.08 20:04:00 -
[2133 ]
Originally by: Elenath I have no interest in digging up facts that have been presented numerous times to support another side of some foolish argument. So, in short you do not have any facts, but just think they are..somewhere. I do not agree with all of Nyxus suggestions, and no, statistics are with flaws, but, guess what? They are still 100 times more meaningful than making statements with zero backing like yours. Quote: If this issue weren't closely balanced then why is it so contentious? It just means that there are many persons which have to say something about the subject. Look at the ECM thread, since it grew to almost 40 page this surely must mean that ECM is balanced? Right. Also, you confuse the "if all sides argue equally things are balanced" phrase. This would apply if we had equally big "minnies..", "caldari.." and "gallente are underpowered" threads. Also, we do not have a 50:50 distribution of pro-amarr and anti-amarr here, there are way more people which think amarr is atm weaker than other races. Either way, this argument is not working here. Quote: If you want to use this discussion as an excuse to keep this petty thread bumped then feel free. I will no longer argue with a one year 'veteran' (oxymoron, anyone?) who is uncomfortable with facts... let alone be party to trying to educate a bunch of petulant gamers. You seem to confuse "facts" with the public opinion. Facts need to have references, proof. Without this they are just chatter.
Elenath
GallenteThe Vindaloo Enema Disasters
Posted - 2006.09.08 20:07:00 -
[2134 ]
Edited by: Elenath on 08/09/2006 20:16:01 Nice of you to rear your head. No surprise. Another 'veteran' who has been playing four months. Originally by: Aramendel So, in short you do not have any facts, but just think they are..somewhere. I have read plenty of threads and seen plenty of charts... and done some numbers myself that leave me feeling very comfortable with my split choice of Amarr and Caldari. My point is that I am not of the general consensus that Amarr are so horribly broken. I've seen the evidence myself and could care less whether a bunch of whiners don't believe it. I fly their ships... and many of them perform in the top of their category (Absolution anyone?). In order to have a discussion regarding game-balance myriad factors need to be taken into account. The EANM issue is a great example. People just spout a bunch of numbers and yell, 'I have proof!'... when in actuality all they have done is present about 2% of the entire argument. No one in their right mind is going to perform (or is capable of) a complete analysis of this issue. It's far too multi-faceted. The point is to play the damn game and figure out for yourself if Amarr work for you. They work for me... and I know plenty of people who love their ships. Crying > Facts wins the forums. That's what this thread is about. Use all the numbers and 'proof' you want. Read my above statement regarding statistics... which you so easily ignored. This thread is one very small side of a huge argument... and now it's been turned into a crusade on behalf of those who have an agenda. Period.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.09.08 20:21:00 -
[2135 ]
Quote: The EANM issue is a great example. People just spout a bunch of numbers and yell, 'I have proof!'... when in actuality all they have done is present about 2% of the entire argument. Are you trying to tell me EANMIIs are not royally screwing Amarr ships? - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Elenath
GallenteThe Vindaloo Enema Disasters
Posted - 2006.09.08 20:22:00 -
[2136 ]
Edited by: Elenath on 08/09/2006 20:24:30 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Elenath I have read plenty of Then link them. You were bothered enough to post here, so linking them should not be a problem, right? Again, if you talk about "facts" you better should have the arguments for them handy. A fact without proof is no fact but just another friends friend bigfoot sighting. Partial quoting out of context 4tw!!! Read the entire thread, EVE Vet Extraordinaire. PS. I'm done being a participant in keeping this thread active. I'm humiliated that I've done so already. I'll let the forum warriors suspend their reason and logic and continue on their holy crusade.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.08 20:28:00 -
[2137 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 08/09/2006 20:30:55 Originally by: Elenath Partial quoting out of context 4tw!!! You mean "hitting posting and then editing 4tw". That was all what was there when I answered. Do not accuse me of your errors. Quote: PS. I'm done being a participant in keeping this thread active. I'm humiliated that I've done so already. I'll let the forum warriors suspend their reason and logic and continue on their holy crusade. Lets see...3 posts of claiming "facts" and then leaving when asked to bring any arguments for the so far baseless statements. Thank you, you fit right in with the other trolls so far.
Nir
Posted - 2006.09.08 21:35:00 -
[2138 ]
Can this thread die please.. Stop whining, if the lack of win buttons bothers you that much go train Gallente or Caldari or something, shjeesh.
Evelyn Lavi
Posted - 2006.09.08 21:39:00 -
[2139 ]
Originally by: Nir Can this thread die please.. Stop whining, if the lack of win buttons bothers you that much go train Gallente or Caldari or something, shjeesh. What you mean to say is: "I'm Caldari/Gallente already and I'm happy with the way things are, so I'm going to be a retard and post the predictable "if u dont liek X u play as X" reply that helps no one, solves nothing, and makes you look like a World of Warcraft kiddie. Thanks for playing.
tookar
AmarrKrookid
Posted - 2006.09.08 22:11:00 -
[2140 ]
Lets all just train caldari and we will all have more fun with less arguing
south24
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.09.09 11:02:00 -
[2141 ]
bumpage ------------------------------------ Originally by: Trepkos The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.09.09 11:48:00 -
[2142 ]
lol amarr
MacQueen
AmarrSturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
Posted - 2006.09.09 15:11:00 -
[2143 ]
Originally by: Nir Can this thread die please.. Stop whining, if the lack of win buttons bothers you that much go train Gallente or Caldari or something, shjeesh. What you asking for is a total shut down of communication between players and CCP, or in anotherhand, it similar like creating a communist goverment, be happy with whatever they give you, dont ask, dont question, shut up and thank gods that they still let you play or live. ------------------ Trying to quit smoking. Drug time. ------------------
Stephar
The High Priest
Posted - 2006.09.09 17:26:00 -
[2144 ]
To add insult to injury, the Rokh may very well be a better turret boat than any of the Amarrian battleships. It will be one of only two battleships with a resistance bonus, the other being the Abaddon. However, unlike the Abaddon, it will be able to utilize both of its bonuses simultaneously. The Abaddon will have to choose between tank (with sad projectile damage) or gank (no cap for tank). And the Rokh's optimal range bonus can be viewed as a hidden damage bonus, as the pilot can just switch to higher damage, shorter range ammo. Luckily, most Amarrian gunnery skills will transfer over nicely when we all start flying Rokhs.
Perry
AmarrThe X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.09 18:15:00 -
[2145 ]
Edited by: Perry on 09/09/2006 18:14:55 Flying Caldari Ships? Wasting like 40mil Points in amarr spec? I rather bump this thing into high heaven then letting such insults happen. Give us our Utility BS like all races have one (or two... or three...). No other option.
Warnings
Posted - 2006.09.09 20:11:00 -
[2146 ]
Why amarr don't have answer from a GM ??? And Gallente with deimos after about 20 : Quote: Wow long thread. If it makes you feel any better then I've noticed it and I'll look into it. From Tuxford ?+? Yes for amarr it's a long job, you need to change ALL not only one ship !!!
Elenath
GallenteThe Vindaloo Enema Disasters
Posted - 2006.09.09 21:35:00 -
[2147 ]
Originally by: Warnings Why amarr don't have answer from a GM ??? And Gallente with deimos after about 20 : Quote: Wow long thread. If it makes you feel any better then I've noticed it and I'll look into it. From Tuxford ?+? Probably because the Gallente thread is not a baseless whine thread with no ground to stand on... Like this thread.
Death Kill
Caldaridirekte
Posted - 2006.09.09 21:41:00 -
[2148 ]
Originally by: Elenath Probably because the Gallente thread is not a baseless whine thread with no ground to stand on... Like this thread. Utter, utter rubbish. You are.Recruitment
Red Horseman
Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.09.09 22:29:00 -
[2149 ]
I would just be happy to see Amarr given a little more of a cap use reduction on its guns (12.5% per level instead of 10) and a little more CPU on the geddon. It's fecking impossible to try to fit t2 guns and any respectable setup without a cpuII. Maybe make the cap use reduction a "Special Ability:" like some faction ships have, and give us a rof/damage bonus for lasers on the Apoc. That way we'd have an incentive to not fit 1400's rather than beams. That said, it's clear to me that the best use for Amarr battleships right now is in the role of fleet gunships, seeing how their lack of midslots for tackling and damage variety makes solo combat frustrating. They do a pretty good job of this, but the mega and tempest do it better. Please help us! (Preferably before I finish training for gallente BS) ----------------------------------------------
Lockey
Posted - 2006.09.09 22:33:00 -
[2150 ]
Amarr are suppose the be thing KING of lasers and turrets, they should get a good (15% or more!) Decrease in cap useage AND a reduction in PG Laser fitting Req's or a shed load more PG.
DeadDuck
AmarrDAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.10 02:49:00 -
[2151 ]
Anyone from CCP already posted here ?
Areconus
Posted - 2006.09.10 03:23:00 -
[2152 ]
LOL @ this thread...ppl just bumping so 70 some pages doesnt go to waste...
Soratah
AmarrUbiqua Seraph Aegis Militia
Posted - 2006.09.10 05:30:00 -
[2153 ]
I think the primary points here are the skillpoints required to pilot Amarrian ships effectively. As it stands the Amarr only really have one bonus of use (I've written off the cap reduction bonus as a necessity for flying these ships and not useful compared to the other two damage bonuses that other races have.) It takes twice as many sp for a pilot to be really effective in an Amarrian ship than it is in another race's ship of the equiv-tech. 1) axe the cap reduction bonus in favor of a resistance bonus to bring it up to par with other race's ships (and keep it in line with Amarrian design ethos.) 2) The Abbaddon needs to be a multi-role BS rather than emulating both the Geddon and Apoc (badly).
Elenath
GallenteThe Vindaloo Enema Disasters
Posted - 2006.09.10 06:14:00 -
[2154 ]
Originally by: Soratah I think the primary points here are the skillpoints required to pilot Amarrian ships effectively. and... Originally by: Soratah It takes twice as many sp for a pilot to be really effective in an Amarrian ship than it is in another race's ship of the equiv-tech. If that were a valid argument then this thread should be about Minmatar... who have twice as much to train as Amarr. This thread is a collection of baseless whining perpetuated by a few people with an unfounded agenda.
Stephar
The High Priest
Posted - 2006.09.10 06:36:00 -
[2155 ]
Originally by: Elenath This thread is a collection of baseless whining perpetuated by a few people with an unfounded agenda. The whining will die down as we acquire more Caldari SP's.
Auryn Darkblade
Posted - 2006.09.10 06:39:00 -
[2156 ]
Edited by: Auryn Darkblade on 10/09/2006 06:41:16 Edited by: Auryn Darkblade on 10/09/2006 06:40:15 Originally by: Elenath Originally by: Soratah I think the primary points here are the This thread is a collection of baseless whining perpetuated by a few people with an unfounded agenda. UNFOUNDED AGENDA? Reading comprehension for the win!Page 68 of this thread for idiots who cant read (scroll down to Nyxus's post and use your eyeballs & brain)
Elenath
GallenteThe Vindaloo Enema Disasters
Posted - 2006.09.10 06:48:00 -
[2157 ]
Edited by: Elenath on 10/09/2006 06:48:26 Originally by: Auryn Darkblade rabble rabble I've read it all and used my eyeballs & brain (as you so eloquently put it). If you'd put the childish personal insults aside and look with a more critical eye (instead of having faith in what someone else tells you) you'd realize that Amarr (while having some very minor issues) are actually very well off. I fly both Caldari and Amarr... and I actually prefer Amarr. This thread is nothing but a bunch of whining from the vocal and uninformed minority who have an agenda and are presenting 'evidence' which is nothing but some numbers that explain one VERY small side of the story. Critical thinking ftw!
Auryn Darkblade
Posted - 2006.09.10 06:53:00 -
[2158 ]
Originally by: Elenath Edited by: Elenath on 10/09/2006 06:48:26 Originally by: Auryn Darkblade rabble rabble I've read it all and used my eyeballs & brain (as you so eloquently put it). If you'd put the childish personal insults aside and look with a more critical eye (instead of having faith in what someone else tells you) you'd realize that Amarr (while having some very minor issues) are actually very well off. I fly both Caldari and Amarr... and I actually prefer Amarr. This thread is nothing but a bunch of whining from the vocal and uninformed minority who have an agenda and are presenting 'evidence' which is nothing but some numbers that explain one VERY small side of the story. Critical thinking ftw! So you are saying I don't have ALL my sps in amarr skills (?) I have flown Amarr since I started playing. The current state of Amarr ships, Battleships in particular is just stupid, try fitting a full compliment of turrets on an geddon, try doing higher than 5 dps vs a 2x eanmII + dc tank.... The ONLY amarr ships worth a damn are the 3 ships that dont use lasers as primary weapons, arbitrator, curse, pilgrim.
Kirov VIII
Posted - 2006.09.10 09:35:00 -
[2159 ]
Elenath, there is only one thing : You have already pilot a amarr ship ? You canno't make your mission without a faction fitt, you canno't break the tank of a BS npc in a belt ? (not faction only a BS), you fitt another turret than the racial turret and you make more damage, you have 9m sp in gunnery and a guys with 1m sp can shoot 2x to quickly the same target ... For PvP, CCP have add overpowered lence ... 100% range, with 2 bonus and make the damage of a -12.5% range turret LOL. Yes amarr are good in PvP with this lence, you have try without and only one damage ? :P For shoot NPC, I must take lence t2 for break the tank else I canno't break the tank with my HAC and a lot of sp. I take ~10-12min per BS with T2 lence. Amarr are good only against sansha, blood, drone. The tank is good but when you can tank 30 min for shoot 3bs, it's useless. A good tank/damage is 10x better. You tank 5min, the time for shoot all BS. Try to play only with amarr ship and laser turret ... You canno't with 10m sp or 20m, it's the same thing ...
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.10 10:41:00 -
[2160 ]
Originally by: Elenath This thread is nothing but a bunch of whining from the vocal and uninformed minority who have an agenda and are presenting 'evidence' which is nothing but some numbers that explain one VERY small side of the story. Hey, Elenath. Bumping the thread again? Still making generalized statements without backing?
Jazz Bo
CaldariCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.10 11:18:00 -
[2161 ]
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade The current state of Amarr ships, Battleships in particular is just stupid, try fitting a full compliment of turrets on an geddon, try doing higher than 5 dps vs a 2x eanmII + dc tank.... Well I just got shot at by a long range Arma, with that exact tank. It melted my armor in seconds nevertheless. Quote: It's fecking impossible to try to fit t2 guns and any respectable setup without a cpuII. I'm sure it is. But the Mega has exactly the same problem. What I don't get is how the same people say "Amarr suck against armor tankers, boost them!" and "Everyone flies Caldari, so boost Amarr!". Lasers are very nice against shields, and almost half of all players are Caldari. Right? Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew.... squisssh!
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.10 11:28:00 -
[2162 ]
Nice against untanked shields. Ironically the giant EM holes is hurting lasers here - people usually try to achieve halfway even resists, so the "typical" 3 slot shield harderner setup is 1*EM + 2*Invul. Resulting in EM being 2nd highest resistance. Also, the question would be how many caldari actually use a shieldtank. The more sucessful PvP setups use EW and an basic armortank.
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.09.10 11:41:00 -
[2163 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Nice against untanked shields. Ironically the giant EM holes is hurting lasers here - people usually try to achieve halfway even resists, so the "typical" 3 slot shield harderner setup is 1*EM + 2*Invul. Resulting in EM being 2nd highest resistance. I terms of overall performance, 3 invul is better than 1 em + 2 invul. The only reason for a 1 EM + 2 Invul tank is to plug the EM hole, but it's not rational to do unless you know you'll face a lot of amarr ships/em missile spamming ships. NB.In Rust We Trust
Rant Anplan
Posted - 2006.09.10 11:50:00 -
[2164 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Nice against untanked shields. Ironically the giant EM holes is hurting lasers here - people usually try to achieve halfway even resists, so the "typical" 3 slot shield harderner setup is 1*EM + 2*Invul. Resulting in EM being 2nd highest resistance. Also, the question would be how many caldari actually use a shieldtank. The more sucessful PvP setups use EW and an basic armortank. Then it is working as intended. They have to use another med slot for covering their EM hole, and that is a wonderful thing for any enemy, because it means gimped EW/Speed. Additionally, Amarr have higher damage to begin with (oh yes, that old argument). Further, some Amarr ships have another low slot to fit another heat sink (or have a built in plate, cap battery, energized...), all the while tanking as well or even better than other armor tankers. An armor tanked caladari ship needs EW or it will be toast against Amarr. Shield tankers trying to armor tank nerf themselves.
Jazz Bo
CaldariCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.10 15:22:00 -
[2165 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Nice against untanked shields. Ironically the giant EM holes is hurting lasers here - people usually try to achieve halfway even resists, so the "typical" 3 slot shield harderner setup is 1*EM + 2*Invul. Resulting in EM being 2nd highest resistance. Also, the question would be how many caldari actually use a shieldtank. The more sucessful PvP setups use EW and an basic armortank. Yes, and? Shield and armor tanking both work on the same principles. Boost the lowest resistance first, then stick a couple omni-res modules on top. Also, lasers won't have any trouble punching through the (hypothetical) "basic armor tanks" on Caldari ships. And on top of the sucky armor tank they won't have any room for damage mods. As for the ECM, your armor-tanking Amarr ships have free med slots of your own. Just fit some ECCM, or ECM of your own. You laser-whiners are just upset that the Mega Pulse is no longer the be all, end all of PvP anymore (I remember a time when we had gangs of literally nothing but Apocs and Armas with Mega Pulses plus some ECM Scorps). And who knows, maybe there would be fewer EANM II set-ups, and more active Exp&Kin&Therm tanks if there hadn't been a bazillion Gankageddons roaming around a while ago? Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew.... squisssh!
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.10 15:42:00 -
[2166 ]
Originally by: Rant Anplan Additionally, Amarr have higher damage to begin with (oh yes, that old argument). Yes, that old argument..which is flat out wrong. compare for once a rail with a same size beam leaser. Guess what, the rail does *more* dps with the 25% damage bonus than the beam laser with the 50% cap bonus. Even if you include reloads. Do the math if you do not believe me. Originally by: Jazz Bo As for the ECM, your armor-tanking Amarr ships have free med slots of your own. Just fit some ECCM, or ECM of your own. Oh really? Lets take the aramgeddon: Propulsion, cap injector, warp disruptor. Where is the magic 4th slot for ECM/ECCM? Quote: And who knows, maybe there would be fewer EANM II set-ups, and more active Exp&Kin&Therm tanks if there hadn't been a bazillion Gankageddons roaming around a while ago? Considering a 2 EAN2 + DC is superior to a 3 active setup in every single way I seriously doubt this.
Jazz Bo
CaldariCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.10 15:48:00 -
[2167 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Jazz Bo As for the ECM, your armor-tanking Amarr ships have free med slots of your own. Just fit some ECCM, or ECM of your own. Oh really? Lets take the aramgeddon: Propulsion, cap injector, warp disruptor. Where is the magic 4th slot for ECM/ECCM? Quote: And who knows, maybe there would be fewer EANM II set-ups, and more active Exp&Kin&Therm tanks if there hadn't been a bazillion Gankageddons roaming around a while ago? Considering a 2 EAN2 + DC is superior to a 3 active setup in every single way I seriously doubt this. Re: Med slots. Of course, there are never enough Med slots on any ship ECM/ECCM > Propulsion. And the Apoc already has that "magical 4th med slot". Re: EANM II. Amazingly, when I took my break from Eve 18 months ago, EANM IIs cost about 500-750k and hardly anyone used them. Maybe people didn't have Hull Upgrades V, go figure. Most people did, indeed, use three active hardeners when armor tanking. Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew.... squisssh!
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.10 16:02:00 -
[2168 ]
Originally by: Naughty Boy In terms of overall performance, 3 invulnerability fields are better than 1 EM + 2 invulnerability fields. The only reason for a 1 EM + 2 invulnerability fields tank is to plug the EM hole, but it's not rational to do unless you know you'll face a lot of amarr ships/em missile spamming ships. NB. True, one t2 EM means 36% less EM damage while a 3rd invul means 17% less damage from all sources. But even though it is better I think the EM + 2 invul is more used. It's not only the "irrational" urge to plug the hole - when people setup a ship for non-specific PvP they try to keep an even lvl, make the ships useful allround. For example, a torp raven could use 3 heavy drones to max it's dps. But you usually have 5 light drones there. The do less dps than 3 heavies. But there where you the heavies are the most use for - BSs - you already have very good dps. 5 lights on the other hand will be a good anti-frig defence.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.10 16:05:00 -
[2169 ]
Originally by: Jazz Bo Re: Med slots. Of course, there are never enough Med slots on any ship ECM/ECCM > Propulsion. And the Apoc already has that "magical 4th med slot". On a missle ship, no. But lasers with their "med range advantage" *need* to have a propulsion mod, otherwise a blaster or AC ship will eat you alive. Quote: Re: EANM II. Amazingly, when I took my break from Eve 18 months ago, EANM IIs cost about 500-750k and hardly anyone used them. Maybe people didn't have Hull Upgrades V, go figure. Most people did, indeed, use three active hardeners when armor tanking. Amazingly, EAN2 got boosted with RMR about half a year ago.
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.11 06:44:00 -
[2170 ]
For the record I have been using EANM for a long long time, and with 20% reists it was STILL worth fitting 3 of over 3 hardeners simply because it reduced the use of CPU by a LOT over standard (later T2 hardeners) and when T2 armor repairs came out that boosted the CPU cost of an armor tank as well, over the old accomodations setups. Amarr are ALWAYS tight on CPU, and sometimes tight on both grid and CPU. I remember that to fit a full rack of mega pulse for CPU reasons on my battleship switching to EANM II's and still having close to 50% boost all around. Really these mods werent broken before, and I like the fact that the mod I used back then is better, however, I do not like the fact that now everyone is using the setup I have been using for so long driving up the price of my EANM II's which I usually buy en mass (at least 10 at a time). The fact that prices have gone from 500-750k to 2-5 million shows that demand has skyrocked for these modules. There is a lot of validity in how common of a fit passive EAMN II tanks are right now. TBH I dont mind having everyone tank EM to 80%, I just wish our lasers didnt eat up as much CPU as they do. (and in some cases reduce grid requirements such as medium beam/pulse). I also wish that amarr ships didnt REQUIRE the 10% laser cap reduction. My bottom line is that any race that requires a "standard" bonus to work is bogus. Ships should be of equal worth before bonuses are applied, bonuses are there to make certain ships excel at certain rolls making choice of ship preferential instead of purely an "upgrade." How many feroxes use their bonus to railguns? NOT MANY! This prooves that even without the ship bonuses a ferox is still effective. If amarr and minmataar ships didnt have ship bonuses how well would they work? I know that amarr ships would not function at all without ship bonuses, our cap would run out in 10 volleys, and our tank would break even quicker. I guess my overall point is that lasers are not the real problem, the real problem is that our ships suck at specializing in what they are intended to specialize in. Blasters work just fine, and megathrons get TWO bonuses that BOTH help blasters, while geddons arguably get the same, the RoF defines the geddon as being DPS, and the 10% energy reduction simply makes DPSing in a geddon possible. If the megathron lost its 7.5% tracking speed, I am sure people would complain, but all in all the ship would not become completely disabled because of that.... A ship should not have to RELY on a ship bonus.... amarr cap bonus is bull minmataar RoF bonus is bull Fix amarr, and fix projectiles.
Perry
AmarrThe X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.11 06:53:00 -
[2171 ]
Yes, please buff Projectils so my Punisher/Maller/Prophecy/Apocalypse do even more dps then with Lasers. /signed
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.11 07:20:00 -
[2172 ]
Originally by: Perry Yes, please buff Projectils so my Punisher/Maller/Prophecy/Apocalypse do even more dps then with Lasers. /signed Hmm, yes it is true that my suggestion would improve projectiles on ships other then minmataar, however my idea is that the damage curve on projectiles is broken since the difference between artillery and autocannons is so huge. Mainly the fact that artillery has the lowest base damage ratio in the game, seems kinda wierd, and autocannons are OMGUBER DPS when a generic RoF and Dmg bonus on so many ships. I wouldnt mind some minnie ships keeping a double dmg bonus, however the artillery damage curve needs to be more in line I think with other weapon systems, and I think that if arty RoF was reduced, then minie ships wouldnt need both bonuses (on tech 1) and that a bonus that is more condusive to ship roll could be used instead (falloff range, webifyer range, target painting, speed ect...). As for amarr, we are so screwed up I cant possibly begin to detail how much I feel this race needs an overhaul, and NO, its not that amarr ships are "weak" in so many words, just that amarr ships dont do ANYTHING that cant be done equally as good if not better in a different race. Races should be specialized in different fields, and right now amarr is specialized in laser cap reduction. If you want your laser cap usage reduced, then amarr is the race for you! Amarr is the race of mediocraty. Not bad, but not good at anything either. Each race should have something(s) that it specializes in.
Perry
AmarrThe X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.11 07:51:00 -
[2173 ]
Edited by: Perry on 11/09/2006 07:51:39 Most Amarr ships dont specialize in anything because there is nothing left to spec. in. Our most effective Ship (Arbitrator) is basically a Gallente Design. Example: Abaddon new lvl 3 Battleship. Lets choose its Role! Amarr Player: "A Drone Boat like Arby would be good to help us cause we have only two clone Battleships with Turrets" Gallente Crowd: "No way! Our Domi should stay best in Drones! Afterall Gallente are supposed to use Drones best." Amarr Player: "Okay, how about some more Missleslots? Without rof Bonus it wouldnt be too strong!" Caldari Crowd: "No Way! Our Raven should stay best at whoring lvl 4 Missions and Ganking stuff with Javelin Torps." Amarr Player: "hmm what if amarr gets an ew boat with more meds and the tracking diruptor bonus and some drones and missles mixed?" Amarr Player II: "Nooo you idiot we need dps!!111" Gallente Crowd: "Nooo dps is ours!!!!" Caldari Crowd: "Nooo ew is ours no med slots for amarr 1 is enough!!!" Amarr Player: "Perhaps... hm..." Tuxfords Blog: "because we have to cater to the Crowd, Amarr players will be given a capless uber dps/tanking no medslots no drones no missles no ew ship without cap to do either. Deal with it, you should have experience from your other two same Battleships. By the way Caldari will get Best Turret Boat for long range, Gallente will get best turret Boat short range. Minmatar Player: "What about our BS?" Tuxfords Blog: "No idea im not responsible for balancing" As you can see its indeed very difficult finding a role for Amarr Ships besides tanking 10% Better and loosing 60%dps. Complete overhaul of all Amarr Equipment is requied. Improve Tanks without gimping dps too much, and improve fittings for Ganking ships. Help Amarr Frigates out with higher Grid. Give Khanid a better defined role (Missle/Armor/EW). Improve active hardeners. Nerf ECM, by giving eccm the ability to break the jam and jam the opponent with half chance of his ecm. And the list goes on...
Shadowsword
GallenteCOLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2006.09.11 09:18:00 -
[2174 ]
Amarr ships are fine, even if a little boring, after a while. Lasers aren't, not because of dps or cap use, but because base resistances to weapons should have been kept between 20% and 40%. Giving to some ships a base resistance of 60-70% to the primary damage type of another race was just asking for trouble, and trouble happened... That should have been corrected long ago, tbh. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Belial02
AmarrViziam
Posted - 2006.09.11 11:54:00 -
[2175 ]
Originally by: Perry Edited by: Perry on 11/09/2006 07:51:39 Most Amarr ships dont specialize in anything because there is nothing left to spec. in. Our most effective Ship (Arbitrator) is basically a Gallente Design. Example: Abaddon new lvl 3 Battleship. Lets choose its Role! Amarr Player: "A Drone Boat like Arby would be good to help us cause we have only two clone Battleships with Turrets" Gallente Crowd: "No way! Our Domi should stay best in Drones! Afterall Gallente are supposed to use Drones best." Amarr Player: "Okay, how about some more Missleslots? Without rof Bonus it wouldnt be too strong!" Caldari Crowd: "No Way! Our Raven should stay best at whoring lvl 4 Missions and Ganking stuff with Javelin Torps." Amarr Player: "hmm what if amarr gets an ew boat with more meds and the tracking diruptor bonus and some drones and missles mixed?" Amarr Player II: "Nooo you idiot we need dps!!111" Gallente Crowd: "Nooo dps is ours!!!!" Caldari Crowd: "Nooo ew is ours no med slots for amarr 1 is enough!!!" Amarr Player: "Perhaps... hm..." Tuxfords Blog: "because we have to cater to the Crowd, Amarr players will be given a capless uber dps/tanking no medslots no drones no missles no ew ship without cap to do either. Deal with it, you should have experience from your other two same Battleships. By the way Caldari will get Best Turret Boat for long range, Gallente will get best turret Boat short range. Minmatar Player: "What about our BS?" Tuxfords Blog: "No idea im not responsible for balancing" As you can see its indeed very difficult finding a role for Amarr Ships besides tanking 10% Better and loosing 60%dps. Complete overhaul of all Amarr Equipment is requied. Improve Tanks without gimping dps too much, and improve fittings for Ganking ships. Help Amarr Frigates out with higher Grid. Give Khanid a better defined role (Missle/Armor/EW). Improve active hardeners. Nerf ECM, by giving eccm the ability to break the jam and jam the opponent with half chance of his ecm. And the list goes on... Haha loved it. What if they actually give us a far better tank?.... oh yeah right whats a the use of a tank if you cant deal dmg or even lock a target..
Naughty Boy
Posted - 2006.09.11 17:01:00 -
[2176 ]
Originally by: Aramendel But even though it is better I think the EM + 2 invul is more used. It's not only the "irrational" urge to plug the hole - when people setup a ship for non-specific PvP they try to keep an even lvl, make the ships useful allround. You'd still have to prove why it's not irrational for shields, while it is for armor (as eanm t2 + dcu tanks do precisely not have this even level you speak about, but significanlty higher EM resistance, which was your point in the first place). NB.In Rust We Trust
Wodin Drukvik
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.09.11 20:45:00 -
[2177 ]
Naughty Boy: I would guess that part of the reason revolves around the fact that 2xInvuln + EM uses less cap/s. Thus, it's easy to rationalize "well, they're basically the same" and select the one that uses less cap. Whether or not it's rational is an entirely different matter, and frankly I think it is a fairer baseline for comparison.
Frools
No Quarter. Axiom Empire
Posted - 2006.09.11 21:15:00 -
[2178 ]
probably because 2 eanm + dcu gives almost the same to th/exp/kin as 3 th/exp/kin hardeners aswell as giving 'free' em and hull resists less cpu and no cap use too invuln fields dont really have that advantage over active shield hardeners compared to eanm over active armour ardeners
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.09.11 21:38:00 -
[2179 ]
Originally by: Naughty Boy Originally by: Aramendel But even though it is better I think the EM + 2 invul is more used. It's not only the "irrational" urge to plug the hole - when people setup a ship for non-specific PvP they try to keep an even lvl, make the ships useful allround. You'd still have to prove why it's not irrational for shields, while it is for armor (as eanm t2 + dcu tanks do precisely not have this even level you speak about, but significanlty higher EM resistance, which was your point in the first place). NB. There are a couple of reasons that I agree with Aramendel that Invuln IIs x2 + 1 EM + DC is more common that 3 Invuln II + DC. And NB you are correct, that setup does not have the "most resists" because an Invuln II x3 setup is better from a purely resist point of view. Resist numbers from Quickfit as I was too lazy to do these by hand. Raven - Invuln II x3, F85 DC:61.18 EM, 84.47 Expl, 76.71 Kin, 68.95 Therm Raven - Invuln II x2, F85 DC, 1 'Anointed' EM Ward:72.27 EM, 81.27 Expl, 71.9 Kin, 62.53 Therm So why would anyone use the EM hardener setup over the 3 Invuln? Cost and Cap. Invuln fields were hovering around 15m+ last time I bought them. Em Ward was easy and cheap to get, like 1/15th the price. Using the EM ward makes you a bit more vulnerable to Therm, but saves you LOTS of iskies. For the few incredibly wealthy folks who pvp that is a non issue. For the rest of us it's huge when you consider that 15m is just under 15% of the price of the entire ship, and is uninsurable. This is an even larger issue if you are tanking any ship under BS size, like a Ferox, Caracal, or Curse. In addition, even with the reduction in cap cost to Invuln fields they still take a LOT of cap to run constantly. If you get nos'd, the EM ward plugs the biggest hole and operates on very small amounts of cap which is easier to sustain in an emergency. In addition, the cheaper setup still nets you very very good resists in general. Finally, on a more anecdotal note, I have seen a lot of pvp missile users split EM/EXPL missiles in a 50/50 ratio or a 1/3 ratio. Given the sheer numbers of missile users out there it's not suprising that EM/EXPL are pushed pretty high when you encounter missile users. But honestly I think it has more to do with Cost and Cap rather than commonly loaded missiles. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Rant Anplan
Posted - 2006.09.12 02:56:00 -
[2180 ]
Edited by: Rant Anplan on 12/09/2006 03:00:46 In all this number crunshing, why do we never read that the Apoc has 25% more base grid than Mega and Pest? The Apoc further has respectively 6.5% and 13% better base cap (recharge), and 13% or 20% better base Armor HP. With Skills, this amounts to even more absolute grid, cap and HP, for example an impressive 31.5% more grid with Eng V. AWU tilts the balance even more, because utility/repper/propultion module power needs are the same for both. So what if Autocannons and Blasters have less pg requirements if your guns have triple the range. Fit the Megapulses and still have comparable tank due to your higher cap recharge and armor hp while doing the same damage at range. The Maller has, due to its sixth low slot, double the armor HP if you put a 400mm plate there, with the bonus resists factored in. After the enemy has done the resulting 3300 HP damage, and the Maller repaired them, it can from then on factor in the 25% resist bonus, with still 5 lowslots for other things, and still more PG and cap. Same goes for the Geddon with its 8th lowslot. And if you want speed, well the Maller is indeed faster than the rupture! Low slot flexibility. The Omen is not meant to duel with a Thorax at 2500 meters. It is meant to stay at 12000 meters, where only the drones can reach for full damage, damage the Omen can tank. It can keep range because of its higher base speed. The Omen still has good damage using lasers and full (explosive) damage with missiles and drones at that range. The Thorax might get MWD bonus, but guess what, so does the Omen, with double the cap booster charges in the hold. With reloading times, the Thorax runs its booster for three minutes, the Omen for six. 100% more absolute capacity for the Omen in these minutes and same MWD effectiveness for the first three. If both ships are MWDing, the Thorax gets his 25% bonus of course. Six minutes for the Omen to kill the Thorax' drones with its own, damaging it, or killing its cap by excessive MWD use, six minutes to tilt the odds to the Omen's advantage. Armor tankers have a shield tank too. Lots of shield HP which have to be swiped away before the armor tank is even engaged. Amarr have the best means to do so, Gallente have higher entcounter higher resists, Minmatar and Caldari have to switch ammo. All have to switch drones, which some can't do. If we talk balance, such things need to be considered, they mean vital seconds in a close fight, even if it is only an advantage of few percentage points. The key is range. Keep the enemy at range, and they cannot bring their weapon boni to bear. Don't go into close combat with the Mega. Balance means you have to look at all your modules. Time to buy those nanofibers.
The ArchWarder
Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.09.12 03:21:00 -
[2181 ]
Edited by: The ArchWarder on 12/09/2006 03:24:49 Oh.. so keeping the enemy out of their range is how we win then? Plz explain how we do that... You would need to use a 30km webber to do that coz any close range tempest or mega is gona use an MWD so as soon as they get to 10km you are totally screwed. Cap boosters? ok so thats one of our 3 mid slots gone on the omen which means no webber if you want him to stay around, which he will because the rax has a much higher tanking potential than the omen. Having guns that dont work well long long range compared to arty or rails. Or guns that cant hit a station when you get within 2k makes Amarr BS unplayable at the main PVP optimum ranges. ( I dont care what is said there is NO pvp that takes place within 20k and 70k because you cant be scrambled at that range and most sniping is done 150-200k) The high optimum range and low fall off of Large Pulse lasers is a handicap. Not to mention conflag crystals effectivly taking 70% of our already screwed tracking away.
Rant Anplan
Posted - 2006.09.12 03:33:00 -
[2182 ]
Edited by: Rant Anplan on 12/09/2006 03:33:55 Amarr can use MWD too. And have more PG for Nos, which have a range of 21km and more. If he wants to destroy his own cap, help him! You also hit perfectly because of their kilometer-wide signature. MWD on a Pest or Mega is the Amarr Skippers wet dream. PvP optimum ranges? Real men choose their own range.
Rant Anplan
Posted - 2006.09.12 03:36:00 -
[2183 ]
And you don't need a webber in an Omen since you will actually never get into webber range. If you do, you are toast, so don't.
Luric Vizjier
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.12 05:53:00 -
[2184 ]
I love Amarr, but why does this thread still exist? -----------------------------------------------
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.12 09:13:00 -
[2185 ]
Originally by: Rant Anplan ...PvP optimum ranges? Real men choose their own range. Would be viable if there would be a 30k disruptor. And, no, making the enemy flee is not a win. It's an even at best.
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.12 10:09:00 -
[2186 ]
Originally by: Luric Vizjier I love Amarr, but why does this thread still exist? The unresolved Khanid design issue The unresolved 2EAN2+DC / EM-thermal balance issue The unresolved Amarr are the medium range race in a game where short range or long range dominate issue The unresolved not enough role variety in Amarr BS issue The unresolved imbalances in fitting requirements for smaller lasers issue And the issue that none of these issues have been acknowledged as existing by the devs, let alone that fixes are being worked on or even considered. And to be fair, the Minmatar have similar if different balance issues, which are likewise seemingly being ignored for ... what? What else is being rebalanced atm instead of Amarr and Minmatar? We don't know.That's why this thread still exists.
Rant Anplan
Posted - 2006.09.12 11:38:00 -
[2187 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Rant Anplan ...PvP optimum ranges? Real men choose their own range. Would be viable if there would be a 30k disruptor. And, no, making the enemy flee is not a win. It's an even at best. You have a 20k disruptor. Way beyond blaster and AC optimal. You don't like the effectiveness of lasers and adaptive nanos, but never look at the laser's (and Nos') terrific range advantage. As Amarr there is flying involved. Fly.
Dragy
Posted - 2006.09.12 12:24:00 -
[2188 ]
Originally by: Lucre The unresolved Amarr are the medium range race in a game where short range or long range dominate issue qtf ... and what about minmatar ac's ? huh ? think about autopest. it doesnt deal much dmg and its medium range. a big fallof and no cap is its only advantages.
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.12 12:37:00 -
[2189 ]
Originally by: Rant Anplan You have a 20k disruptor. Way beyond blaster and AC optimal. You don't like the effectiveness of lasers and adaptive nanos, but never look at the laser's (and Nos') terrific range advantage. As Amarr there is flying involved. Fly. The thing is, Amarr isn't exactely the fastest race out there. The opposite rather. Without the ability to dictate range, higher optimal means nothing.Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Frools
No Quarter. Axiom Empire
Posted - 2006.09.12 12:38:00 -
[2190 ]
Originally by: Rant Anplan You have a 20k disruptor. Way beyond blaster and AC optimal. You don't like the effectiveness of lasers and adaptive nanos, but never look at the laser's (and Nos') terrific range advantage. As Amarr there is flying involved. Fly. there isnt a 20k web, you have no way of keeping a blaster or ac boat out of their optimal anyone can fit nos and yea you can in theory fit a mwd on an amarr ship and use it to keep optimal but most amarr ships lack the mid slots, cap, grid and cpu to use one effectively zealot can do it, apoc can if pushed but lacks the damage
Rant Anplan
Posted - 2006.09.12 12:42:00 -
[2191 ]
Originally by: Dragy Originally by: Lucre The unresolved Amarr are the medium range race in a game where short range or long range dominate issue qtf ... and what about minmatar ac's ? huh ? think about autopest. it doesnt deal much dmg and its medium range. a big fallof and no cap is its only advantages. Sufficient advantages. With Minnies it's the same as with Amarr. They hit better at mid range than Gallente, and have damage boni and selectable damage. And they have the fastest base speed, missiles and drones.
Rant Anplan
Posted - 2006.09.12 13:00:00 -
[2192 ]
Edited by: Rant Anplan on 12/09/2006 13:03:49 Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Rant Anplan You have a 20k disruptor. Way beyond blaster and AC optimal. You don't like the effectiveness of lasers and adaptive nanos, but never look at the laser's (and Nos') terrific range advantage. As Amarr there is flying involved. Fly. The thing is, Amarr isn't exactely the fastest race out there. The opposite rather. Without the ability to dictate range, higher optimal means nothing. If you can't dictate range, you have to ask yourself why you can't. Amarr is not the fastest race, but not the slowest either. Two of the premier Amarr combat ships, the Geddon and the Maller, have an extra low slot. Fit a nano and be faster than Minmatar, while still having a comparable or, in the Maller's case, even better tank. The Apoc has built-in (yes!) modules instead of its 8th low slot. Fit a nano and your tank is indeed still sufficient at med range. The Omen is only 10m/s slower than the Rupture. The other races desperately need their advantages, otherwise they would be dead. Lazored into submission at med range, where they could never reach otherwise. Frools, you don't run into cpu problems with an MWD, because you can omit the webber in a 20km engagement. Look what I found: 100 MN Afterburner I (50 tf) + Stasis Webifier I (25 tf) ------------------------------- = 100 MN MWD I (75 tf) You can't fit an MWD and still do the same damage at 2000 meters yes, but at 20000 meters it's a different issue. You want a free lunch, and there is no such thing.
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.12 13:06:00 -
[2193 ]
Originally by: Perry Example: Abaddon new lvl 3 Battleship. Lets choose its Role! Amarr Player: "A Drone Boat like Arby would be good to help us cause we have only two clone Battleships with Turrets" Gallente Crowd: "No way! Our Domi should stay best in Drones! Afterall Gallente are supposed to use Drones best." Amarr Player: "Okay, how about some more Missleslots? Without rof Bonus it wouldnt be too strong!" Caldari Crowd: "No Way! Our Raven should stay best at whoring lvl 4 Missions and Ganking stuff with Javelin Torps." Amarr Player: "hmm what if amarr gets an ew boat with more meds and the tracking diruptor bonus and some drones and missles mixed?" Amarr Player II: "Nooo you idiot we need dps!!111" Gallente Crowd: "Nooo dps is ours!!!!" Caldari Crowd: "Nooo ew is ours no med slots for amarr 1 is enough!!!" Amarr Player: "Perhaps... hm..." Tuxfords Blog: "because we have to cater to the Crowd, Amarr players will be given a capless uber dps/tanking no medslots no drones no missles no ew ship without cap to do either. Deal with it, you should have experience from your other two same Battleships. By the way Caldari will get Best Turret Boat for long range, Gallente will get best turret Boat short range. Minmatar Player: "What about our BS?" Tuxfords Blog: "No idea im not responsible for balancing" Comedy gold! Giving Tux a job at CCP dont seam like the smartest move tbh.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.09.12 13:08:00 -
[2194 ]
Originally by: Rant Anplan Edited by: Rant Anplan on 12/09/2006 13:02:08 Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Rant Anplan You have a 20k disruptor. Way beyond blaster and AC optimal. You don't like the effectiveness of lasers and adaptive nanos, but never look at the laser's (and Nos') terrific range advantage. As Amarr there is flying involved. Fly. The thing is, Amarr isn't exactely the fastest race out there. The opposite rather. Without the ability to dictate range, higher optimal means nothing. If you can't dictate range, you have to ask yourself why you can't. Amarr is not the fastest race, but not the slowest either. Two of the premier Amarr combat ships, the Geddon and the Maller, have an extra low slot. Fit a nano and be faster than Minmatar, while still having a comparable or, in the Maller's case, even better tank. The Apoc has built-in (yes!) modules instead of its 8th low slot. Fit a nano and your tank is indeed still sufficient at med range. The Omen is only 10m/s slower than the Rupture. The other races desperately need their advantages, otherwise they would be dead. Lazored into submission at med range, where they could never reach otherwise. Frools, you don't run into cpu problems with an MWD, because you can omit the webber in a 20km engagement. Look what I found: 100 MN Afterburner I (50 tf) + Stasis Webifier I (25 tf) ------------------------------- = 100 MN MWD I (75 tf) They can't fit an MWD and still do the same damage at 2000 meters yes, but at 20000 meters it's a different issue. You want a free lunch, and there is no such thing. this is just stupid. It doesn't seem you have any experience in flying or fitting amarr ships. BTW: alt posting is bad mmmkay - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Rant Anplan
Posted - 2006.09.12 13:24:00 -
[2195 ]
Edited by: Rant Anplan on 12/09/2006 13:28:43 Originally by: Dixon this is just stupid. It doesn't seem you have any experience in flying or fitting amarr ships. BTW: alt posting is bad mmmkay Hark hark, here come the personal attacks. Seems that I have a point.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.09.12 13:29:00 -
[2196 ]
Originally by: Rant Anplan Edited by: Rant Anplan on 12/09/2006 13:26:12 Originally by: Dixon this is just stupid. It doesn't seem you have any experience in flying or fitting amarr ships. BTW: alt posting is bad mmmkay Hark hark, here come the personal attacks. Yes, here they come. You post with alts, you get personal attacks. But you surely wouldn't mind posting your range-dictating setups, would you? - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Rant Anplan
Posted - 2006.09.12 13:41:00 -
[2197 ]
Edited by: Rant Anplan on 12/09/2006 13:42:06 Originally by: Dixon Yes, here they come. You post with alts, you get personal attacks. That is not a very cool thing to say in the grown up sense of the word, dear Dixon. Originally by: Dixon But you surely wouldn't mind posting your range-dictating setups, would you? I could. They are the same as every other but with one more nano, one less tank, cap or damage module, depending on skills and money. With MWD but without web. With more emphasis on Nos/Neuts than guns. In other words, Amarr setups, med range and cap warfare. And less damage, what an heretical thought is that. Mmmmkay?
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.09.12 15:06:00 -
[2198 ]
Originally by: Rant Anplan That is not a very cool thing to say in the grown up sense of the word, dear Dixon. Yes it is. Originally by: Rant Anplan I could. They are the same as every other but with one more nano, one less tank, cap or damage module, depending on skills and money. With MWD but without web. With more emphasis on Nos/Neuts than guns. In other words, Amarr setups, med range and cap warfare. And less damage, what an heretical thought is that. It's nice to say you can do something without actually doing anything. While nos may be lethal when used with drones and ECM, but amarr ships have neither. Although nos-heavy setup to keep distance is only viable on battleships as medium and small sized nosferatus don't have the range to do that. In fact you'd most likely always run into cpu and/or grid problems while fitting these setups. I'd really like to know how you keep your distance from a blasterthron with null ammo (can reach 800ish dps @ 20km range with drones) or a AC tempest (700ish dps @ 20km) or even a raven (750ish dps @ 20km), these are all ships that can dictate range better than any amarr ship (although the raven doesn't need to, he just sits there and laughs) due to their high dps within scramble range. You must realize that amarr strengths lie outside scramble range and that is a problem in pvp. Originally by: Rant Anplan Mmmmkay? no - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Rant Anplan
Posted - 2006.09.12 17:05:00 -
[2199 ]
Edited by: Rant Anplan on 12/09/2006 17:06:19 Originally by: dixon Yes it is In the wonderful world of childhood and kiddietalk it is, if you want to remain there be my guest. Originally by: dixon While nos may be lethal when used with drones and ECM, but amarr ships have neither. Although nos-heavy setup to keep distance is only viable on battleships as medium and small sized nosferatus don't have the range to do that. In fact you'd most likely always run into cpu and/or grid problems while fitting these setups. I'd really like to know how you keep your distance from a blasterthron with null ammo (can reach 800ish dps @ 20km range with drones) or a AC tempest (700ish dps @ 20km) or even a raven (750ish dps @ 20km), these are all ships that can dictate range better than any amarr ship (although the raven doesn't need to, he just sits there and laughs) due to their high dps within scramble range. You must realize that amarr strengths lie outside scramble range and that is a problem in pvp. I'm not talking about Nos, I'm talking about Not/Neut. Amarr ships have the best cap. That means that they win the cap warfare. If you win the cap warfare, your opponent loses his tank. If you can make your opponent lose his tank, your damage becomes secondary or even tertiary after your own tank. Nos and Neuts have less cpu requirements than even lasers, and use pg between low tier and high tier lasers. Nobody else can fit Neuts as well as Amarr. Time to skill up the cap warfare skills. The buggers may do damage at range with t2 guns, but nobody forces you to sit still and let them hit you. But...but...they have DRONES! Drones are the Minmatar and gallente way to force the Amarr pilot to fit a smartbomb instead of one of the Nos. If your own drone skills are sub par, since these can also be used to get down the drone user's damage potential. The allmighty Nos domi will be in a for a ride if its drones get destroyed in short order. After and while his damage is gimped, you go and kill his cap for good. Then he dies. At close range or at 20km. The Raven has a couple of handicaps: He shield tanks. Base EM resistance: ZERO. Now how about that. He has skills and equipment? He may have (and so have you...), but to get up his EM resistance he has to compromise elsewhere. If he armor tanks, he doesn't have a tank at all, low slots are used to get up his damage and fit the warp stabs. So the Raven sits there and laughs? He will stop laughing if he loses his tank and has to face an Apoc with close range (=damage) crystals. You choose distance, remember? He has EW? He should have, otherwise he sits there - dying. The Raven also loses his second ship bonus at close range, but that just btw. All of this is a close call, as it should be. You want Gallente to be pushovers? No you won't that is why they get a tier 3 battleship with mwd bonus, which is an indirect cap warfare bonus, in order to meet the blatant Amarr advantage of cap warfare. You wanted a niche - here is one. Tank and cap warfare at medium range. The Amarr way. A game of cap management and maneuver. You don't like it? Then you should skill something else.
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.12 17:20:00 -
[2200 ]
Edited by: Godar Marak on 12/09/2006 17:20:01 Originally by: Rant Anplan . I'm not talking about Nos, I'm talking about Not/Neut. Amarr ships have the best cap. That means that they win the cap warfare. If you win the cap warfare, your opponent loses his tank. If you can make your opponent lose his tank, your damage becomes secondary or even tertiary after your own tank. Nos and Neuts have less cpu requirements than even lasers, and use pg between low tier and high tier lasers. Nobody else can fit Neuts as well as Amarr. Time to skill up the cap warfare skills. What a load of poppycock! Cap warfare? That term is beyond a joke, who doesnt use cap injectors today? And the fact is that even though you suck a minnie or caldari dry their weapons will still be firing because they use zero cap. And if you fire your lasers while running armour tank your cap will only last you for a little while. And guess what, nos is going to be nerfed. Kiss Amarr good bye.
Perry
AmarrThe X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.12 17:42:00 -
[2201 ]
Edited by: Perry on 12/09/2006 17:45:12 Edited by: Perry on 12/09/2006 17:44:23 Originally by: Rant Anplan Nos and Neuts have less cpu requirements than even lasers, Heavy Nos II: 50tf Mega Pulse II: 53tf -25% wu = 39,75tf Your argument goes poof. Originally by: Rant Anplan But...but...they have DRONES! Drones are the Minmatar and gallente way to force the Amarr pilot to fit a smartbomb instead of one of the Nos. Your Logic goes poof. Smartbombs use a huge amount of Cap and occupy Hislots otherwise used for "your" Nos/Neut/Lasers. The Amarr Cap advantage has just vanished. Originally by: Rant Anplan If your own drone skills are sub par, since these can also be used to get down the drone user's damage potential. The allmighty Nos domi will be in a for a ride if its drones get destroyed in short order. After and while his damage is gimped, you go and kill his cap for good. Then he dies. At close range or at 20km. I think im withstandig the need to place a good old LOL here and try to argue. First you need about three Large Smartbombs to kill the Domis Heavy buffed Drones (multiple waves!) in time before he has Nossed/ECMed and ripped you apart. Second, he has as many if not more Noses. Third he has more Damage and ECM from the very beginning. Third, the Ammarr using Neuts and SB has just killed his own Cap. The fight is over before it begun. Originally by: Rant Anplan The Raven has a couple of handicaps: He shield tanks. Base EM resistance: ZERO. By your own logic the engaging Apoc has fitted Nosses, Neuts and Smartbombs. So you shoot his theoretical lower EM Resists with like 2 Large Lasers. hehe good luck breaking his natural shild recharge, let alone his Cap injected EM Hardened more efficient shild tank (shild tanks are more efficient nowerdays. By the way Ravens Launchers dont need Cap and do more Damge then even a dual Rep can tank. Apoc goes poof before Raven runs out of Charges. Originally by: Rant Anplan The Raven also loses his second ship bonus at close range, but that just btw. Apoc has no Bonus at all, just reducing Capneed. Originally by: Rant Anplan All of this is a close call, as it should be. You want Gallente to be pushovers? No you won't that is why they get a tier 3 battleship with mwd bonus, which is an indirect cap warfare bonus, in order to meet the blatant Amarr advantage of cap warfare. Thats why you see so many Amarr Ships in PvP. No wait... Originally by: Rant Anplan You wanted a niche - here is one. Tank and cap warfare at medium range. The Amarr way. A game of cap management and maneuver. You don't like it? Then you should skill something else. No i chosed Amarr because i expected my Lasers and my Armortank would help me, instead it turned on me and now kills my ships due to ineffective Dmgtypes and not stronger Tank then all other ships have. But to be honest, Amarr Problems are not Apocs cap. Its in fact one strong point, but only because it is so absurdly huge in Comparison. All other Amarr ships dont have that luxury of cap+grid. In fact, some Minmatar Ships have same.
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.09.12 17:58:00 -
[2202 ]
The revelation does OK for an amrrian ship. For everything else, use a raven. I trained caldari BS, and its such an easy-button compared to the apoc. No matter the math or would-be intentions, my NPCing speed is way faster versus everything than with any amarrian ship and while i NPC i can PVP at the same time, just be changing targets. I chased off HACs in my Raven fitted with only t1 and minum skills. In my Apoc i would have died for sure, like i did so many times before. Amarr fails, i will just use the amarrian Geddon to do sniping if it is needed because i can use the lasers and dont want to train for hyrids for another two months. But even then, the Rokh would be better. Just foget about amarr, train caldari and never look back.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.12 18:22:00 -
[2203 ]
Originally by: Rant Anplan I'm not talking about Nos, I'm talking about Not/Neut. Amarr ships have the best cap. That means that they win the cap warfare. Actually they do not in most cases. The arma has only a 7% higher cap regeneration than the typhoon. The typhoon has zero cap use from it's weapons. The arma has a seriosu capdrain from his. Who do you think wins cap warfare? The maller and rupture have *identical* cap recharge rates. Same case for the cyclone and prophecy. The only ships where armarr have a significant bonus for sustained cap are the AFs and HACs. And the apoc due to it's bonus, but that one is still weaker than (for example) a 5% armor resistance one. All amarr ships have is a bit more base cap, but with the midespread use of cap rechargers this isn't worth much. From the sustained capuse they are due to the highest capuse from weapons and, as said, identical cap recharge rates (or not high enough ones to counter the laser cap use) they are in reality the race which has the *disadvantage* in cap warfare.
Siakel
Posted - 2006.09.12 18:26:00 -
[2204 ]
I'd really like to see what kind of setup, specifically, you use, Rant. From what you're saying, it looks like you've got your highslots set up something like 3x Large Smartbomb, 2x Heavy Nosferatu, 2x Heavy Neutralizer, 1x Mega Pulse Laser II? With a MWD, 20km scrambler, cap injector, and unknown other midslot, because Amarr ships apparently don't need webs. Throw on a 2x LAR 2 EANM 1 IFFA tank, and the nanofiber to help dictate range, and you've got one lowslot left, 22206/24375 Powergrid, 747.75 /625 CPU used. Adding a CoProc II to the last lowslot increases total CPU up to 687.5 CPU. Still 60.25 CPU short. Even dropping everything fitted to the best named, you're still over by 9.25 CPU, so you've gotta drop your range-dictating Nanofiber for another CoProc to get this to fit. At the range you are dictating, say 18km, you're now doing about 36 DPS+Drones. That is assuming you aren't using drones for some other purpose, of course.
Hakera
Anari Higard
Posted - 2006.09.12 18:34:00 -
[2205 ]
wow, this whine is still going. Im glad ccp dont listen to the majority, or we'd have one hell of an unbalanced game. The other minmatar, caldari, gallente needs boosting threads were equally full of crazy suggestions and whines.
Perry
AmarrThe X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.12 18:44:00 -
[2206 ]
No they got their boosts ^^ Caldari got Javelin "Gank All in One" Missiles Gallente got super drone carriers and reduced fittings on Blasters Minmatar got Capless ACs have some really impressive ships (Vaga, CBCs, New BC)
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.09.12 19:15:00 -
[2207 ]
Originally by: Perry No they got their boosts ^^ Caldari got Javelin "Gank All in One" Missiles Gallente got super drone carriers and reduced fittings on Blasters Minmatar got Capless ACs have some really impressive ships (Vaga, CBCs, New BC) but the man has a point, this thread has more bullsh1t ideas as it has decent points. But that is the nature of forums I suppose. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
whohuhwhat
Gallenteprinciple of motion R i s e
Posted - 2006.09.12 21:42:00 -
[2208 ]
Amarr really do need looked at. Yes i read all 75 pages. No Amarr do not need explosive damage. tbh i'm not sure what will fix them, but there are some good ideas in this thread. just gotta read thru the 'other' stuff to find them. Amarr Spec'd but flying Minm/Gal atm as my poor Amarrian ships just don't cut it these days whohuhwhat Keeper of the herd Still somewhat confused
DeadlyBob
MinmatarThe Short Bus Squad
Posted - 2006.09.13 02:04:00 -
[2209 ]
fix amarrian this way, it would require testing but its plausable and even logical. lasers are light based weapons with no propulsion systems, they are instant transmission weapons that should always hit if the target is lined up regardless of range. ok so heres my alteration, i won't call it a fix because it is radical compared to the current system. Lasers = hit from any distance as long as the turrets can track. However due to the nature of the weapon they do less dmg the further away the target is. secondly, leave the dmg types alone but rework how the dmg is done based on the above meantioned idea. thirdly rework the tracking speeds of laser turrets so they are a bitNeither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.14 05:31:00 -
[2210 ]
There is no such thing as a "bull****" idea, only people wishing to venture their opinions, anyone who can't handle that should move to some comunist regime, where you can slap censorships at will... Anyways, this thread is not about CCP reading all 75 pages, and considering everyones suggestion, or even taking ANYONES suggestion, merely looking into our race, and telling us what they think/have up their sleeves. If that happens to be nothing, then this thread exists as a beacon to establish awareness that eve players think this thread deserves to be 75+ pages long.
Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.09.14 07:57:00 -
[2211 ]
Lets go and hit 100 pages!! :P
john2
MinmatarDrones of Annihilation
Posted - 2006.09.14 21:15:00 -
[2212 ]
you should be able to do what min do and change damage type by changing ammo. why can t we have a 40+ falloff got max and i think tach are only 25 km
Zahiry
Posted - 2006.09.15 03:26:00 -
[2213 ]
I was going to Amarr spec, but based on this thread I think i'm going to train Minmatar instead.
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.15 06:20:00 -
[2214 ]
Just thought of another thing to help the amarr race. We have the lowest CPU, Apoc, Tempest, & Mega have the same, but the Geddy is well below anything else, lower than some cruisers. Why are the Damage mods all equal??? Shouldn't our heat sink 2's have lower cpu requirements than the others? Seems unfair to me. So, we get the least amount of mid slots to use ew, least amount of cpu to use ew mods and still have to use the same amount of cpu to put damage mods on. No wonder its hard to fit the geddy.
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.09.15 06:24:00 -
[2215 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 15/09/2006 06:24:32 Originally by: Cosmo Raata Just thought of another thing to help the amarr race. We have the lowest CPU, Apoc, Tempest, & Mega have the same, but the Geddy is well below anything else, lower than some cruisers. Why are the Damage mods all equal??? Shouldn't our heat sink 2's have lower cpu requirements than the others? Seems unfair to me. So, we get the least amount of mid slots to use ew, least amount of cpu to use ew mods and still have to use the same amount of cpu to put damage mods on. No wonder its hard to fit the geddy. lol you answered your own question, less medslots you n00b take a look @ the raven cpu or scorp cpu than compare it with armageddon cpu, than compare medslot vs lowslot. There you go _________________________________________________
TerrorWOLF
J.H.E.N.R Pure.
Posted - 2006.09.15 06:27:00 -
[2216 ]
Originally by: Zahiry I was going to Amarr spec, but based on this thread I think i'm going to train Minmatar instead. You going to ?? I already do May Your Death Be Slow And Painful
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.15 07:25:00 -
[2217 ]
Edited by: Cosmo Raata on 15/09/2006 07:25:59 Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 15/09/2006 06:24:32 Originally by: Cosmo Raata Just thought of another thing to help the amarr race. We have the lowest CPU, Apoc, Tempest, & Mega have the same, but the Geddy is well below anything else, lower than some cruisers. Why are the Damage mods all equal??? Shouldn't our heat sink 2's have lower cpu requirements than the others? Seems unfair to me. So, we get the least amount of mid slots to use ew, least amount of cpu to use ew mods and still have to use the same amount of cpu to put damage mods on. No wonder its hard to fit the geddy. lol you answered your own question, less medslots you n00b take a look @ the raven cpu or scorp cpu than compare it with armageddon cpu, than compare medslot vs lowslot. There you go Noob? Well, thats the point you retard, We aren't as good at pvp because of the lack of med slots, I've been posting ideas over and over in here. So keep your boring comments to yourself. Its people like you that makes devs not want to look through forums posts anymore. Waste of a Post if you ask me.
CB Cyrix
GeoTech
Posted - 2006.09.15 13:50:00 -
[2218 ]
Originally by: TerrorWOLF Originally by: Zahiry I was going to Amarr spec, but based on this thread I think i'm going to train Minmatar instead. You going to ?? I already do Makes me wanna trade my 35mil SP pure amarr player for a mini char...
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.09.15 15:06:00 -
[2219 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Edited by: Cosmo Raata on 15/09/2006 07:25:59 Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 15/09/2006 06:24:32 Originally by: Cosmo Raata Just thought of another thing to help the amarr race. We have the lowest CPU, Apoc, Tempest, & Mega have the same, but the Geddy is well below anything else, lower than some cruisers. Why are the Damage mods all equal??? Shouldn't our heat sink 2's have lower cpu requirements than the others? Seems unfair to me. So, we get the least amount of mid slots to use ew, least amount of cpu to use ew mods and still have to use the same amount of cpu to put damage mods on. No wonder its hard to fit the geddy. lol you answered your own question, less medslots you n00b take a look @ the raven cpu or scorp cpu than compare it with armageddon cpu, than compare medslot vs lowslot. There you go Noob? Well, thats the point you retard, We aren't as good at pvp because of the lack of med slots, I've been posting ideas over and over in here. So keep your boring comments to yourself. Its people like you that makes devs not want to look through forums posts anymore. Waste of a Post if you ask me. Well its pretty obvious that you were whining about geddon cpu, while infact you actually have less medslot. That was my point. And you want to lower the cpu usage of damagemods, based on 1 shiptype. Than you call geddon hard to fit, well fly around with a co-proc than. I know i needed one of my mega for 2 year+. lot of medslot = high cpu lots of low = high pg So why lower cpu usage on a single item, like a damagemod. so you save like 30 cpu maybe. Buy a -3% to turret cpu fitting implant if the fitting is that tight. _________________________________________________
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.15 18:44:00 -
[2220 ]
Your argument still doesn't hold water bud. Look & see: Apoc (4 meds) = 500 base cpu Mega (4 meds) = 550 base cpu But maybe you'll argue that your guns take up too much cpu, right? Tachyon base cpu = 63 Neutron Blaster base cpu = 61 I suppose your Rails do use 77 cpu, but I'm comparing your best with our supposed best weapon. Moving on to another example , Tier 1 bs's: Dominix (5 meds) : 600 base cpu Armageddon (3 meds) : 450 base cpu So according to this example you are getting an extra 150 cpu for 2 med slots and 1 less low slot. How interesting!! CCP Must of known that the Domi would want to use EW with those meds, while the armageddon definately would just put cap rechargers in those slots, so the extra cpu isn't needed. I could move on to minmitar, & God forbid I mention how much damn cpu Caldari has. Point in case is we have 3 meds that could have EW, but it would gimp the rest of our ship. My current setup on my armageddon has no cpu to spare, i'm not kidding, its exactly at its max. Anyways, this is just another example of how all other races have been fixed & boosted and we've been left behind. I was just talking to a buddy from Roadkill, we talked about Amarr and came to a conclusion. Amarr used to pwn people, because people would stay & fight, now EW is uber important because everyone runs, without scrams/webs/other ew, you're just a joke. We need so many fixes its ridiculous. Heres my list of fixes along with what are role should be: Amarr should be easily the kings of damage/turrets because ccp will never give us more meds. We need to have the role of doing the damage for our gang, while others use the ew. Its just not the case, gallante does more damage, while tackling. 1) Reduce cap usage on all lasers by 50% & eliminate the useless bonus on every amarr ship of cap reduction to lasers per level. Replace each bonus with non-damage bonuses to help define each ships role. - Apoc would get 5% armor resistance bonus, and this is the only ship that needs both bonuses replaced, other bonus should be an armor rep amount per level. Therefore the apoc becomes the king tanker of armor tankers, the way it should be. - Geddy would get a falloff or tracking bonus, this is our gun ship. It also needs 50 more cpu as proven in my first discussion above. - Zealot/Omen would be given a speed bonus, giving us our fastest ships, a very sore spot with amarr. - Absolution/Prophecy would get optimal range bonus, which is sorely needed. Damnation would get a damage bonus, just as the eos has. - Arbi/Curse/Pilgrim are fine, Maller would get a rep amount bonus like the apoc. Giving us the best cruiser tanker - Augoror is beyond saving. - Sac needs to be a missle boat again, but this time focus on shields & missles instead of trying to do both as ccp first did. No idea why they tried to change the whole damn thing, the fix in my mind was easy, it needed a damage bonus for missles. - Retri needs that 2nd med slot. - All other frigs can be fixed by someone else, I dont use them to give a good opinion. I want to prove how important it is that these ships all get real bonuses. All Amarr players say t2 ships are fine, that t1 is the problem. Well let me show you why everyone thinks that. All t1 ships get 2 bonuses, faction 3, t2 4. Now, take all the amarr ships that receive the cap bonus. T1 now get 50% of their bonuses, faction get 66.7%, t2 get 75%. Now you can see why most feel t2 is fine. I dont agree however, because of this: Bar none, Curse/Pilgrim are our best ships, why you ask? They get 100% of their bonuses. Now all can see how important it is that we're given a 2nd real bonus. 2) Beam Damage increased, PG requirements reduced. 3) Laser damage rebalanced with more thermal, NO EXPLOSIVE. Taadaa, Amarr is fixed without making us uber, without changing slots, It is a lot of work, But very needed!
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.15 18:48:00 -
[2221 ]
Oh, one more thing. Abaddon needs to be ew ready, 5th med is good enough. Tier 2 BC should be a drone boat. Something different at least.
Cuisinart
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.15 21:19:00 -
[2222 ]
Wow, I'm impressed that this thread still lives
Tennotsukai
MinmatarSharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.09.15 22:44:00 -
[2223 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Your argument still doesn't hold water bud. Look & see: Apoc (4 meds) = 500 base cpu Mega (4 meds) = 550 base cpu But maybe you'll argue that your guns take up too much cpu, right? Tachyon base cpu = 63 Neutron Blaster base cpu = 61 I suppose your Rails do use 77 cpu, but I'm comparing your best with our supposed best weapon. Whoa... hold it right there. if your going to compaire weapons then do it right, rather then spouting rubbish.. you should be compairing the mega pulse laser to the neutron blaster... like you should be compairing 425 railguns to tachyons.. and if your going to compaire things use the right figures not made up ones which you have done in the case of the blasters.. Now lets look at things again.. Mega pulse laser I base cpu = 50 Neutron blaster I base cpu = 65 Mega pulse laser II base cpu = 53 Neutron blaster II base cpu = 72 in the case of tachs.. Tachyon beam laser I base cpu = 60 425mm railgun I base cpu = 70 In the case to tech II Tachyon beam laser II base cpu = 63 425mm railgun II base cpu = 77 So please don't go around making things up to make your argument look correct.. Originally by: Tar Kovsky I hear the "M" in "MC" stands for "Mercenary" and the "C" stands for "Cash up front".
mallina
CaldariTurbulent
Posted - 2006.09.16 02:03:00 -
[2224 ]
Amarr dont have huge problems, but they do have problems. Maller/Prophecy: isnt a bad tanker, but has hardly any grid left to fit lasers. I found that AC/MWD/Plate combo on these ships works wonders, compared to lasers. Geddon: has a nice damage output, and CAN fit a decent tank... but try doing both at once and you do it for about 10 seconds. the only way for a 7x Megapulse geddon to work is if you dump armor reps completely and just plate it to hell, but even then and with a recharger it still runs out of cap from firing guns alone. if you want it to tank, especially dual-rep tank you NEED a cap injector and 2-3 heavy nos. you can still do ok damage with 5-6 DHP and dual heatsink, though, but you have to use standard adaptive nanos if you enjoy having any CPU whatsoever. still, without plates that dual rep tank wont hold out long versus high-damage ships, such as Blasterthrons. Apoc: its just a cap platform with a few nifty uses but nothing like what it was supposed to be. the only way it can win anything is by outtanking or outnossing something, usually using a triple rep tank and ACs+Nos it dosent make a terrible sniper, but you have to use Mega Beams if you want any grid and hence cap/dps/tracking Damage Types: good versus caldari bad versus... everyone else its sick to see your t2 dual heavy pulses on a geddon struggle their way into an enemy tank, even with 2x heatsink- for you to then run out of cap and the required cap injector being unable to sustain the requirements of the guns AND tank- then to see a blasterthron with t2 electrons eat through a geddon t2 dual rep tank like it was made of butter ----------- <3 Turbulance
Lord Seth
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.16 07:18:00 -
[2225 ]
Edited by: Lord Seth on 16/09/2006 07:21:56 Edited by: Lord Seth on 16/09/2006 07:19:47 OK i dont have the time to read all the posts but here is my veiw. When CCP nerfed amarr the game was differnet, ppl were getting owned all over by amarr. Now eve is different ppl use EW ppl use recons......etc So all the changes done to amarr dont really apply anymore. Im sure every one will agree. FIX amarr make them back to the damage dealers, ie fix the guns back to the way they used to be, give the apoc a perpose again. return the missel bonus to the sac. give some of the t1 cruisers more usefull bonuses. whatever your original intentions were with amarr need to be reintroduced back in to the game. the game is now ready for the original amarr race.
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.16 07:44:00 -
[2226 ]
The subject matter might be dead, but like frankenstien, the thread still lives though hideous mishappen dead topics. I love it. Its like blended dead horse syndrome, of which I plan to contribute to for years to come!
Lord Seth
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.16 09:10:00 -
[2227 ]
Originally by: DrEiak The subject matter might be dead, but like frankenstien, the thread still lives though hideous mishappen dead topics. I love it. Its like blended dead horse syndrome, of which I plan to contribute to for years to come! OHH its not dead, were just getting warmed up
Lucian Corvinus
GallenteExpert Systems
Posted - 2006.09.16 09:12:00 -
[2228 ]
yeah, which whiner get's to page 100 first... GO GO GO
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.09.16 11:06:00 -
[2229 ]
Instead of whining about individual ships , certain weapons , or a problem that is none obviously , the amrrians have just created ONE thread to contain all the issues that might come up. Its for the forum to be kept clean, you should respect it, not bash it.
Xune
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
Posted - 2006.09.16 11:16:00 -
[2230 ]
Sad that we still dont have an answer
Victoria Zongo
Brigand Coalition
Posted - 2006.09.16 12:18:00 -
[2231 ]
Originally by: Xune Sad that we still dont have an answer Indeed, I wonder. On the other hand, I doubt my friends would come back to Amarr even if it was made as good as the other factions. After the announcement of more Caldari/Gallente uber-stuff in Kali, they lost their trust that anyone cares about Amarr and started voting with their feet. To get them back to Amarr would require making Amarr ships and guns the best in game ... and I doubt CCP will do that.
carleyjones
CaldariBlood and Silver
Posted - 2006.09.16 13:48:00 -
[2232 ]
im sorry, but i cant see what all the fuss is about. i havent read all the points bought up in this thread and amarr do have some sucky one midslot ships but then not every ship in eve is designed to be solo ship. plus i feel u have some great ships like the pilgrim,curse,punisher,maller,arbi,prophecy and u have ships that can tank better than other races. i like flying amarr ships. the guy from a few posts above sums it all up really. amar used to pwn everything, ccp nerfed them and now they dont. perheps they where abit hard with the nerf bat, but i still think u r all over reacting aliitle
Victoria Zongo
Derelik Privateers
Posted - 2006.09.16 14:12:00 -
[2233 ]
Originally by: carleyjones i havent read all the points bought up in this thread Maybe ... just maybe ... you should do that. Because then you might have noticed that the discussion is more about lasers and less about ships. Apart from the fact that half of the ships you mentioned are drone ships and the Punisher is best with autocannons. Your point about Amarr being the best tankers was proven wrong by calculations a few pages back.
Angus McLean
GallenteDivinity Trials
Posted - 2006.09.16 14:31:00 -
[2234 ]
Originally by: Victoria Zongo Originally by: carleyjones i havent read all the points bought up in this thread Your point about Amarr being the best tankers was proven wrong by calculations a few pages back. And multiple times 20 pages before that... Quote: Basically we've established, EVE physics < Amarr
Azalea Regweld
Posted - 2006.09.16 16:36:00 -
[2235 ]
It'd be nice if the dev's could at least respond to this. Maybe we should have started in General Discussion.....
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.16 20:32:00 -
[2236 ]
hmm I am beyond the point of over reacting. I hardly take an interest in forums save to find info on some of the new content durring patch day blues. Regardless, I have never had much of a problem with amarr nerfed, or not until now. I am not sure what spacifically it was that triggered me to get so involved, the final staw so to speak, but it doesnt matter any more. We shal not rest until the devs figure out what they want amarr to be. I can sum up our race into one word: mediocre. Without the ability to accel at anything the amarr race is getting screwed over, I like seeing people fly amarr, and i DONT like when all the old amarr pilots I know start flying other races ships simply because they have lost their will to fly amarr. Right now the apoc is a giant flying Piece of Sh...Crap. The geddon outperforms it in every roll accept for mining :/ I luv the geddon but it really is just OK in comparison to all the ships you COULD fly. And that is how amarr is all around, we are ok compared to other ships, but you can pretty much find a better ship in every race then anything we got. Arby is good, vexor is better, geddon is good, mega is better, curse is good, vagabond :/ I dont even want to TALK about the vagabond... There are lots of really great ships out there, I dont want to see these ships get nerfed, but right now CCP is looking at nerfing the only line of good ships we have (arby/curse/pilgrim) and not because of amarr, because of damn caldari pilots still being uber. I dont give a crap if caldari use oversized NOS to kill interceptors/AF's/HAC's... Our Curse kills shields and out noses almost any NOS ship, and that really hasnt given us the edge in PvP, only a decent solo PvP ship. What I want to see is amarr getting changed.... A LOT... I dont want us to be more DPS, or more med slots spacifically, or just a generic change like switching EM and thermal damage, I want to see every aspect of amarr considered. I want to hear what the devs think amarr is for (besides storyline and symetry). Then I want to see our ships live up to their legacy.
Akiio
Posted - 2006.09.17 01:56:00 -
[2237 ]
Originally by: carleyjones the guy from a few posts above sums it all up really. amar used to pwn everything, ccp nerfed them and now they dont. perheps they where abit hard with the nerf bat, but i still think u r all over reacting aliitle Aye the gankageddon was something to be feared, but then again did you ever run into a Tempest with 800mm and full lows filled with damage mods. It could drop your battleship in seconds. Not fun. Or how about way back before tracking came into game and everyone and their mother was flying around with 1400mm on their ships or dual mwd Ravens...the list goes on and on and on and on. The problem is most people bring the old days back when thinking about balancing. The general thought is <insert race> used to rule the skies, now it's my turn. It isn't difficult to see the imbalance if you go through each ship class. The problem is that most think that if they agreed about the Amarr issues we might end up back in the old days of the gankageddon. I don't want the old days back, but I would like to have competitive ships. Yes we do have the Curse and Pilgrim, both are great solo ships right now. This is because they use Nos+drones and not lasers. Their poplarity will drop as soon as CCP nerf nos. After this they will be second class Recons. They will be out performed by Minmatar and Gallente Recons. As it stands right now CCP need to fix the balance in tanking. The Armageddon with t2 ammo puts out great raw dps, but when it only takes 3 non specific modules to reduce a 1000+dps ship down to 200 dps something is wrong with game balance. If they were specific to EM tanking that would be a different story, but they aren't and this is where the imbalance is coming from.
ventavoox
Posted - 2006.09.17 03:25:00 -
[2238 ]
Hmmm, let's see, four races, four specific specialties. Caldari : Missiles that can vary damage at any range , incredibly stupid effective shield tanks, Definition of "Caldari" : Ecm. Gallente : Mostly all there ship's have the strongest (in-terms of most used damage) tank's currently available. Wait, but theres more - blasters that can horrendously tear apart ship's in seconds, Definition of "Gallente" : Drones. Matari : Absolutely elaborate diversity - sheer versatility , No capacitor usage for it's weapons that can deal "omfgwtfplzkthnxbaibbqyarr" damage over fcked up distances. Missiles, AC's, neutralizer's, drones and unlike most races it's Hac's can be virtually indestructable to amarr ship's. Definition for "Minmatar" : Jack of all Trades. Amarr: Can't fit it's weapons without completely destroying the entire philosophy of it's ships. Drones - None, Ecm - None, Missile points - Why are you even toying with us, CCP? Giving amarr "love" would indeed be an understatement. We need a role. ALL the ship's can tank. ALL the ships can deal damage if not more? Hell, we can't even do a half a$$ed job of what we're BUILT to do.W T F!
Exortius Amarrus
The Clearwater Society THE H0RDE
Posted - 2006.09.17 03:36:00 -
[2239 ]
I don't care if any Amarr ship is "good". No Amarr ship is "great" at what they're supposed to be great at: dealing damage and tanking. Amarr are supposed to be big, slow, and tanked to hell. I don't care if so and so amarr ship is great with nos/drones or with arties. The get bonuses for LASERS, not arties. As such, an amarr ship with arties is not a match for any other faction's ship fitted with weapons that correspond to their bonuses. Amarr ships need to be big, slow, and badass, and ph34r3d ffs. atm i have switched to Caldari, as anyone with a few sp in missiles can pwn anyone with similar sp placed in amarr's useless lasers. When i was in XS, the CiC called Lasers "flashlights", because all they did was make pretty lights. We used to say that you wouldn't do any damage, but you would never die in the dark. Please CCP give amarr some loving. ------------------------
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.17 07:14:00 -
[2240 ]
well u guys have to give it to Amarr ships though they are the most verstile in guns as in they can use any type of gun and no problems :) Apoc with Autocannons or Blasters and enough powergrid and cpu to put jammers in meds and tank like hell only problem is ......... too much time to train for another races guns lol anyways Projectiles training now :) The Master Of Chaos
Meridius
AmarrDestructive Influence Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.09.17 08:31:00 -
[2241 ]
Rofl this thread is still kickingboost lasers - _____
Perry
AmarrThe X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.17 08:34:00 -
[2242 ]
Originally by: LordChaos well u guys have to give it to Amarr ships though they are the most verstile in guns as they suck equally bad with all types of turrets. :) Corrected it for you.
Tekka
CaldariDark Cartel
Posted - 2006.09.17 08:49:00 -
[2243 ]
Edited by: Tekka on 17/09/2006 08:50:17 Originally by: Meridius Rofl this thread is still kickingboost lasers Convert CaldariBoost missles »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.17 09:41:00 -
[2244 ]
Ok........ they suck equally with all guns lol but at least they can tank far better with autocannons :) lol The Master Of Chaos
FraXy
CaldariCelestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.17 11:09:00 -
[2245 ]
Apoc running Dual 425mm Autocannons and Heavy tank.. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
Hellspawn01
AmarrThe Phantom Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.09.17 12:37:00 -
[2246 ]
What about the missing damage bonus on T1 amarr ships? Laser damage comes from skills only till you fit damage mods. Other races have a build in bonus but with lasers, you can fit them on any ship and dont lack any damage, just the cap usage reduction is missing. I say thats a big point for amarr there.Ship lovers click here
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.17 13:36:00 -
[2247 ]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 What about the missing damage bonus on T1 amarr ships? Laser damage comes from skills only till you fit damage mods. Other races have a build in bonus but with lasers, you can fit them on any ship and dont lack any damage, just the cap usage reduction is missing. I say thats a big point for amarr there. the cap bonus helps alot and i mean ALOT lol and i wouldnt fit them on any other race u know y? check Amarr gun grid requirments and check other races and check Cap of the ships Apoc the biggest amarr bs cant fit a full rack of tech2 tachs without having 2 RCU2s while the tempest /megat/raven have no problem fitting a full rack of their guns. and Amarr dont have a damage bonus cause their guns start off with more damage then the rest............. i think thats y lol The Master Of Chaos
Hellspawn01
AmarrThe Phantom Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.09.17 14:03:00 -
[2248 ]
Originally by: LordChaos Originally by: Hellspawn01 What about the missing damage bonus on T1 amarr ships? Laser damage comes from skills only till you fit damage mods. Other races have a build in bonus but with lasers, you can fit them on any ship and dont lack any damage, just the cap usage reduction is missing. I say thats a big point for amarr there. the cap bonus helps alot and i mean ALOT lol and i wouldnt fit them on any other race u know y? check Amarr gun grid requirments and check other races and check Cap of the ships. Apoc the biggest amarr bs cant fit a full rack of tech2 tachs without having 2 RCU2s while the tempest /megat/raven have no problem fitting a full rack of their guns. and Amarr dont have a damage bonus cause their guns start off with more damage then the rest............. i think thats y lol Thats correct. But mega has only 7 guns and tempest only 6. Apoc needs 1 RCU II for 7 guns even with the biggest grid of all BS, its the 8th gun thats the problem(before LAR). 22.275 Grid with Engineering 5 32.235,94 Grid with 2x RCU II 29.700 Grid needed for 8 Tachyon II with AWU 5 You could change it for an officer PDU instead of a 2nd RCU II which should do the job btw. But still I dont see much where you could boost amarr. I mean, amarr have more armor, more if not most cap in all classes, more turrets, good tracking, great tanks and can fight at all ranges. Maybe the crystals need a look at cuz we only do 2 damage types but that counts for hybrids too. Lets see if Tuxford says anything about this topic in here before Kali hits.Ship lovers click here
Exortius Amarrus
The Clearwater Society THE H0RDE
Posted - 2006.09.17 15:12:00 -
[2249 ]
Originally by: LordChaos Originally by: Hellspawn01 What about the missing damage bonus on T1 amarr ships? Laser damage comes from skills only till you fit damage mods. Other races have a build in bonus but with lasers, you can fit them on any ship and dont lack any damage, just the cap usage reduction is missing. I say thats a big point for amarr there. the cap bonus helps alot and i mean ALOT lol and i wouldnt fit them on any other race u know y? check Amarr gun grid requirments and check other races and check Cap of the ships Apoc the biggest amarr bs cant fit a full rack of tech2 tachs without having 2 RCU2s while the tempest /megat/raven have no problem fitting a full rack of their guns.and Amarr dont have a damage bonus cause their guns start off with more damage then the rest ............. i think thats y lol A newb with 1mil sp in laser skills will do far less damage then a newb with 1mil sp in missile skills. Lasers are simply not comparable to other races as far as damage output goes. To maximize amarr laser damage and make it even comparable to other race's DPS, you have to gimp the rest of your setup and just go for damage. Why can a mega and a raven tank and hit for excellent damage, while i have to chose between the two when fitting my apoc? ------------------------
Hellspawn01
AmarrThe Phantom Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.09.17 15:38:00 -
[2250 ]
I had wreckings of 1700 with my Tachyon II. Someone had wrecking of 2700 with a 1400 II. Best I had with a 425mm II railgun was 1100, maybe someone can post a higher number to compare. And a T2 damage torp hit would help here.Ship lovers click here
Talthrus
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.09.17 15:47:00 -
[2251 ]
Originally by: Tekka Edited by: Tekka on 17/09/2006 08:50:17 Originally by: Meridius Rofl this thread is still kickingboost lasers Convert CaldariBoost missles NoooooOOOooOOo! ----------------------
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.17 17:14:00 -
[2252 ]
Well, I think its time for me to make a decision, Tired of this type of treatment. I dont care what people that dont fly amarr say, we're inferior in more ships than any other race and i've given evidence as to why many many times. Customers aren't allowed to get answers, CCP basically is a bad business that has enough customers to apparently afford to lose some. I put up a post in general in an attempt to get a straight answer. I wrote : "I'm going to ask very very nicely. No need for people to give opinions on the matter in this post. Those interested in an answer can just bump it so it can be seen. All further contructive ideas can go here http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=344179 PLEASE CCP, TELL US YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE MATTER. I love the game, I dont want to trade my character & regret it later. I dont want to cross train, I believe strongly in your suggestions to specialize. I've just come to a crossroads. You dont need to say what you are going to do. Just give a tiny hint/answer....Yes, we have a plan for amarr, or no, amarr is fine. I think we as customers deserve it. Oveur, if you're reading, I'm begging you man, give us something, we know you want kali very secret and maybe you are going to do something to amarr in it. But answering with a yes or no and being done with it will be so helpful. You dont understand how much a relief it would be just to know what you are all thinking about the issue. 76 pages on that forum posted above, which means that you know we want a change. But all I'm asking for is a simple yes or no answer. Please Please Please. Again, all those that read this, pls dont flame. This is a geniune question, I'd appreciate it if this post was respected. There are plenty of other posts to flame in if you dont agree with my decision to ask. Thank you." In the end an ISD felt it necessary to say this rubbish: "This thread is going to be locked and this is why: 1. Cosmo you are cross posting. Keep the thread in one forum only. Tuxford reads Ships and Modules quite often. The dev's will reply if needed. 2. This thread has resulted in flaming and trolling. For the future, when your asking something form the devs, please be polite and do not demand. You will also find that training other race skills will open up a new style of gameplay. You will have fun. Try that. Questions: Email us [email protected] " 1) I'd hardly call me asking nicely, saying please like 10 times being demanding. 2) I could have removed the link to avoid the crosspost 3) I do not want to cross train, I shouldn't have to and I dont appreciate being told such. 4) Its worse to know that Tux reads this stuff yet says/does nothing. In conclusion I'll reitterate, CCP used to be great at stuff like this, answering questions of its customers, but as of late I feel like a Wal-mart customer. Meaning, screw you we have tons more, and a new customer will be in tomorrow to replace you. Now I just need to ponder what I will do. I saw another amarr character in WTT forum that doesn't seem to have any takers, wonder why....
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.17 17:17:00 -
[2253 ]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: LordChaos Originally by: Hellspawn01 What about the missing damage bonus on T1 amarr ships? Laser damage comes from skills only till you fit damage mods. Other races have a build in bonus but with lasers, you can fit them on any ship and dont lack any damage, just the cap usage reduction is missing. I say thats a big point for amarr there. the cap bonus helps alot and i mean ALOT lol and i wouldnt fit them on any other race u know y? check Amarr gun grid requirments and check other races and check Cap of the ships. Apoc the biggest amarr bs cant fit a full rack of tech2 tachs without having 2 RCU2s while the tempest /megat/raven have no problem fitting a full rack of their guns. and Amarr dont have a damage bonus cause their guns start off with more damage then the rest............. i think thats y lol Thats correct. But mega has only 7 guns and tempest only 6. Apoc needs 1 RCU II for 7 guns even with the biggest grid of all BS, its the 8th gun thats the problem(before LAR). 22.275 Grid with Engineering 5 32.235,94 Grid with 2x RCU II 29.700 Grid needed for 8 Tachyon II with AWU 5 You could change it for an officer PDU instead of a 2nd RCU II which should do the job btw. But still I dont see much where you could boost amarr. I mean, amarr have more armor, more if not most cap in all classes, more turrets, good tracking, great tanks and can fight at all ranges. Maybe the crystals need a look at cuz we only do 2 damage types but that counts for hybrids too. Lets see if Tuxford says anything about this topic in here before Kali hits. You aren't really understanding much in here are you. I'm not a big advocate of getting more damage, but one could argue that it should be our role. Reason being is no matter how much damage you deal, EW pwns all, which we can't use much of or defend against. Look back on the previous page to see what I think needs to be done. However your arguments are very weak.
Dilandil Ma'al
Posted - 2006.09.17 20:24:00 -
[2254 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata You will also find that training other race skills will open up a new style of gameplay. You will have fun. Try that. We're told that the only way for new players to be competitive is to specialize. If we train up other races skills, we're not specializing now are we?
Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet Pirate Coalition
Posted - 2006.09.18 03:54:00 -
[2255 ]
I've had it. Frankly I'm sick and tired of Amarr. Geddon is nice, but can be outmatched by pretty much every single other BS out there. Apoc? Wtf is it good for? People say fitting it with Projectiles make it worthwhile but then why the hell not train up for Minmatar anyway? You'll get damage bonuses at least. Look at the ****ty ass bonuses Amarr get, 10% cap reduction for lasers? Why not just put in "You'll suck 10% less per level". I've started training up for Gallante. At least I'll retain my armor tanking skills and drone skills there. I can fly Amarr HACs and Recons very effectively and frankly I feel like I've wasted time doing so. I'm just going to lame like everyone else and get a Nos/ECM dominix and bbqpwn everything with ease. ===============================================
Altraz
Posted - 2006.09.18 09:17:00 -
[2256 ]
I feel your pain. I hope and pray for a balance when it Kali comes out but then again, I don't think they're balancing it for a while. Oh well. Wishful thinking. You don't call it gank-a-poc. You call it gank-a-thron for a reason :)
XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.09.18 12:01:00 -
[2257 ]
Sorry if im slow here... but whats wrong with amarr?
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.18 14:36:00 -
[2258 ]
Originally by: XGS Crimson Sorry if im slow here... but whats wrong with amarr? Well, there's apparently a bug, probably cloak-related, which somehow makes their ships and weapons totally invisible to the devs...
XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.09.18 14:42:00 -
[2259 ]
Originally by: Lucre Originally by: XGS Crimson Sorry if im slow here... but whats wrong with amarr? Well, there's apparently a bug, probably cloak-related, which somehow makes their ships and weapons totally invisible to the devs... Hmm silly.
Auryn Darkblade
Posted - 2006.09.18 14:59:00 -
[2260 ]
Originally by: XGS Crimson Sorry if im slow here... but whats wrong with amarr? I love it when people who think the Amarr people are whining pretend like there arent 77 other pages to this thread, at least 50% of which have very well thought out feedback.
Siakel
Posted - 2006.09.18 16:21:00 -
[2261 ]
XGS just has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. If you doubt this... well, here's an example. I would ask you to refrain posting about things where you obviously have no experience at all, XGS Crimson.
The Armin
Royal Hiigaran Navy
Posted - 2006.09.18 16:40:00 -
[2262 ]
Edited by: The Armin on 18/09/2006 16:40:17 Originally by: Siakel XGS just has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. If you doubt this... well, here's an example. I would ask you to refrain posting about things where you obviously have no experience at all, XGS Crimson. LoL @ That apoc setup ;D
Hijara
AmarrBrotherhood of Light
Posted - 2006.09.18 19:06:00 -
[2263 ]
I think that boosting the amarian damage might solve some of the problems. Ive experimented with fitting 3 heat sink II's for a load of Tachyon modulated pulse energy beams, and i only JUST get over the damage multiplier of large arty. And the arty doesn eat cap like a starving whale. If damage was boosted to really high levels, we could at least overcome some of the problmes amarr have. The few shots we coudl get off, woudl cause real damage to people. Then the cap drainage would be worth it. But, im sure someone will prove me wrong, and while aobut how the geddon is a great drone ship, or the arby's are good gank ships, but think aobut that for a sec. That is 3 ships out of th eWHOLE ammarian navy. And that XGS Crimson, obviously hasent flown amarr, unless it was a shuttle
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.18 19:37:00 -
[2264 ]
Geddon is a great ship, the recons are great, the absolution other than the basic problems the bcs have is great. the zealot is ok. other than that amarr sucks. the way to look at it from a pvpers point of view, if he is picking a target to engage if he sees a apoc or geddon he will engage. why well you know they are not going to use EW, no drone bonues, so not to much to worry about there, and unless the amarr pilot has max skills and a very good cap set up he will cap himself out if he does shoot at you. lastly they only can do two damages, so throw a ena on and a active thermic hardener and you are set. so lets see 2 heavy nosf, 2 multi specs, a ean and a thermic hardener on basicall y any ship can beat amarr.
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.18 19:39:00 -
[2265 ]
oh yeah and on the geddon being great part, it is a great ganker. that is it. to put a tank on it makes it where you cannot put mega pulses on and anything lower on lasers and the guns are aweful.
Auryn Darkblade
Posted - 2006.09.19 02:17:00 -
[2266 ]
Originally by: Martinez Geddon is a great ship, the recons are great, the absolution other than the basic problems the bcs have is great. the zealot is ok. other than that amarr sucks... Thats it in a nutshell. Amarr has the highest ratio of crappy ships to good ships in the game. I would guess 85% of Amarr ships are crap. Sound about right?
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.19 02:23:00 -
[2267 ]
WTS 35 mill Amar PvPer i even got 5 mill in drones Curse FTW :) btw curse with faction mods can own a Domi anytime 30 Km scrambler ftw :) "hope he dont get back up soon" The Master Of ChaosPlease resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Lord Seth
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.19 07:31:00 -
[2268 ]
YOU KILL AMARR......... YOU BASTARDS
Phyrexia Tarzig
Posted - 2006.09.19 08:44:00 -
[2269 ]
I ashamedly sold my Apocalypse and bought a Raven. I frankly feel dirty with barely half a million in shield skills and 450k missile skills, but the massive pile of isk I've made in a couple of weeks kind of mitigates the feeling somewhat.
CB LoKi
Posted - 2006.09.19 12:09:00 -
[2270 ]
Originally by: XGS Crimson Originally by: Lucre Originally by: XGS Crimson Sorry if im slow here... but whats wrong with amarr? Well, there's apparently a bug, probably cloak-related, which somehow makes their ships and weapons totally invisible to the devs... Hmm silly. This guy is soooooooo without a clue. Man give this guy some isk to phone someone who cares what hes gotta sayPlease resize your signature, oh and I love you - Jacques
Exortius Amarrus
The Clearwater Society THE H0RDE
Posted - 2006.09.19 17:28:00 -
[2271 ]
This thread is intended for discussion of Amarr ships and their deficiencies (sp?). If you're not going to add something to the conversation please don't waste the forum space. Saying Amarr are fine is ofc constructive to the conversation, but trolling with stupid 1 line Questions is not constructive. ------------------------
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.09.19 18:18:00 -
[2272 ]
Originally by: Phyrexia Tarzig I ashamedly sold my Apocalypse and bought a Raven. I frankly feel dirty with barely half a million in shield skills and 450k missile skills, but the massive pile of isk I've made in a couple of weeks kind of mitigates the feeling somewhat. Trust me, raven is teh npc king...every race is yealous of it _________________________________________________
Hakera
Anari Higard
Posted - 2006.09.19 18:24:00 -
[2273 ]
go forum squad! to the spam mobile! get to 100 pages quick and you get a prize! amarr overall are fine and dandy. thankfully, democracy does not make a game.
Xelia
Posted - 2006.09.19 19:01:00 -
[2274 ]
From XGS Crimson's brilliant other post: Quote: You obveously can't fly a ship proply and have no idea about the other races... Quote: amarr don't have cap issues Quote: if you want a decent setup try this ( apoc setup pwns) 5 tachyons 2 cruise 2 cap boosters (large) 100mn t2 AB 2x t2 large reppers, 3 t2 hardners, 1 t2 power diag First this won't fit with tech 1 guns, it is so far from fitting with t2 guns it shows you: A.) have zero clue about fitting and... B.) you just make up random crap and post it You came to this thread and said: Quote: Sorry if im slow here... but whats wrong with amarr? We are sorry that you are slow as well. Until you can read, please refrain from posting further, k? thx On the topic of Amarr ships I think the Abbadon could be a decent ship if tech 2 CPRs are released along with it. I understand it doesn't solve the damage problem, but with the ships resist bonus and its RoF bonus I'm eager to see what it will be capable of. Of course I'm a mission runner and not PvP based. I think it would go a long way in making amarr PvE equal to that of the raven's PvE ability. Anyhow, flame on /duck
Byzan Zwyth
Posted - 2006.09.19 20:19:00 -
[2275 ]
my prophecy is now working fine, but I do use projectile weapons with it, it's about half as effective with lasers and I have more SP invested in lasers than projectiles. I guess I should just train to fly a cyclone next ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow and look cool... Gallente because they are effective
Nariana Verex
AmarrTerra Nova Technologies
Posted - 2006.09.19 20:36:00 -
[2276 ]
It took me a few days to read this entire thread, but I just finished and I have to say... I'm not surprised. Lets just face it, every game needs a race/class/___ that sucks at what it is supposedly good at. I've only been playing for about a year total. 6 months about two years ago, strictly Amarr... Got bored being unable to do anything but rat Sanshas. Came back a few months ago and tried again. So far I hate to say but my Arbitrator is indeed the only tech 1 Amarr ship I've played with that's useful in any way... And I use artillery on it. *sob* I have to say I personally agree with some of whats said on Amarr ships, and disagree on the rest. I apologize in advance for no numbers; Explosive crystals. No. Just no. More thermal damage? Please? If Gallente is Drone, then Blaster, why is it they can tank better and their blasters do kinetic damage primarily? Make EM Drones not suck. Someone said here a while ago that EM drones were the sturdiest of the light drones, and actually that goes to thermal drones. They're pretty low on the damaging aspect as well. Less fitting costs on frigate/cruiser lasers. Yes. I played around with an Omen and a Maller while I was still flying cruisers, and I had to sacrifice my tank just to get them to do decent DPS. Other than the Arbitrator make, the Khanid ships are... Sucky. Nothing needs to be said here, its already been said. I'm not saying the other races don't need nerfs/boosts as well, but after all this time and I'm sitting here, staring at a 'geddon that I'll be piloting for the first time in five days I ask myself; Why even bother? I should just get a Raven and train for a month in missiles. =/ I thought missiles were nerfed, thats what everyone tells me, and yet they can pretty much do anything you want them to. Especially if you have access to the Tech2 varients. Ya know? Maybe I will use that 'geddon. I'll use all the low slots on shield regen equipment that will kill my cap, then fit my midslots with shield tanking stuff, and my highslots will be Nos and something other than lasers. I don't see any Caldari ships using autocannons or Gallente ships using artillery. Might be nice. So should we give up hope? Maybe. Even CCP has admitted that if we use other ships we'll have more fun. -------------------------------------------- You will also find that training other race skills will open up a new style of gameplay. You will have fun. Try that. -CCP ---------------------------
Auryn Darkblade
Caldari4th Cohort
Posted - 2006.09.19 20:56:00 -
[2277 ]
Originally by: XGS Crimson Sorry if im slow here... but whats wrong with amarr? Originally by: Hakera go forum squad! to the spam mobile! get to 100 pages quick and you get a prize! amarr overall are fine and dandy. thankfully, democracy does not make a game. OK, I'm no "Forum-Cop," but what is the deal with people who obviously don't fly Amarr, come into a thread like this, where several well thought out points have been made, and give a one line "You guys are whiners, Amarr are OK!" response? A fair comparison would be made to a heated discussion in congress, where both sides are making informed speeches on both sides of the issue at hand and all of a sudden a hoodlum kid runs up to the podium and yells "O'Doyle Rules!" in prankish fashion. Is this somehow accepted behaviour on forums? __________________________________________________ [17:31:19] dnkuanggong2 > i m china i love evebus i on love t4r4
Hakera
Anari Higard
Posted - 2006.09.19 21:05:00 -
[2278 ]
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade OK, I'm no "Forum-Cop," but what is the deal with people who obviously don't fly Amarr, come into a thread like this, where several well thought out points have been made, and give a one line "You guys are whiners, Amarr are OK!" response? ever heard the saying 'assumption is the mother of all *******', assuming that I know nothing about amarr and never flown them simply because I have a different opinion to you, or maybe its my forum avatar! well genius, there are indeed several (out of far too many replies) decent arguments that make a fairly decent case in some scenarios (such as resists) but none of which incline me to ever say amarr should be boosted. There are tweaks here and there that could be made but that is it. Hence my overall opinion. And Im glad your no forum cop either, you would not last long if you deleted every opinion not matching your own.
Auryn Darkblade
Caldari4th Cohort
Posted - 2006.09.19 21:20:00 -
[2279 ]
Originally by: Hakera Originally by: Auryn Darkblade OK, I'm no "Forum-Cop," but what is the deal with people who obviously don't fly Amarr, come into a thread like this, where several well thought out points have been made, and give a one line "You guys are whiners, Amarr are OK!" response? ever heard the saying 'assumption is the mother of all *******', assuming that I know nothing about amarr and never flown them simply because I have a different opinion to you, or maybe its my forum avatar! well genius, there are indeed several (out of far too many replies) decent arguments that make a fairly decent case in some scenarios (such as resists) but none of which incline me to ever say amarr should be boosted. There are tweaks here and there that could be made but that is it. Hence my overall opinion. And Im glad your no forum cop either, you would not last long if you deleted every opinion not matching your own. I honestly don't care if you don't share the same opinion as "me" (when you should have directed it towards every Amarr specced person in this forum btw.) What I do care about is that when you are having a "discussion" about something, saying something is OK whithout backing up this statement with data, and calling everyone on one side of the issue "spammers" and "whiners" is not the best way to get your side of the discussion recognized as anything other than trolling. Honestly if you (or anyone) can bring some facts to the table as to why I should go back to Amarr, I would be glad to. But since page 47, I have been training Gallente and can fly a Dominix (and other Gallente ships) pretty damn well. Now that I am flying something other than Amarr, it is just painfully obvious to me how generic and underpowered Amarr ships / weapons are. __________________________________________________ [17:31:19] dnkuanggong2 > i m china i love evebus i on love t4r4
Elenath
GallenteThe Vindaloo Enema Disasters
Posted - 2006.09.19 21:31:00 -
[2280 ]
Originally by: Hakera go forum squad! to the spam mobile! get to 100 pages quick and you get a prize! amarr overall are fine and dandy. thankfully, democracy does not make a game. /agree I agree with your comments regarding Auryn Dullblade as well.
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.09.19 21:36:00 -
[2281 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 19/09/2006 21:37:58 Well if you serieusly feel ammar is crap, train into other races a couple levels so you can use em properly and than put rest of sp back into ammar. You wont regret it. Took CCP more than 2 years to give blasterthron and drones some love. Shamefully ECM ****** the game up completely, making dominix teh uber. Once nos is nerfed and ecm aswell, ammar will do better. Because their have low sensorstrenght will hurt em less, tankability and capbonus will pwn because injecting cap becomes less popular..(its part of cap than can be nossed). Couple T1 ships from ammar need boosting, especially the omen and fitting specs of some weapons fixed. But in the end ammar isnt really that bad. Npcing with a geddon is still very good because you get lots of damage, range and no ammo usage. Range means you dont need to move close to the target that you want to kill. imo 80% em and 20% therm on radio and multispec a 60% em and 40% therm will do fine for ammar. Kin, therm and explosive used to be heavy tanked while em remained untanked. This is over now, you need to adapt to it. Also because npcing hasnt changed i laugh @ damage/tanking arguments concerning npcing. _________________________________________________
Lady Loom
Amarr
Posted - 2006.09.19 21:55:00 -
[2282 ]
IAWTT, and although I have nothing really new to say I think this thread deserves more than just plain bumpage... My main gripe with Amarr is their versatility, or lack thereof. In my trial days I flew Caldari and Gallente, and going from one ship to the next was exciting as they were quite different - railgun platforms, missile spammers, close combat ships, drone boats, you name it. My main became a Khanid mainly because of Gunnery V, and because I was looking forward to pew pew lazer guns and the prettiest ships in game (IMO, at least back then). Early on it was great, until I picked up a Coercer (yeah I know, destroyers "suck" and all) and ran out of cap everytime I tried to keep 8 lasers running. I ran out of cap so often I made getting out of that heap top priority. Only, things got worse - where with frigates there was still some variety between the different ships, it appeared to me as I was losing options the larger the ship. Pew pew and armor. Or in the case of most ships, pew pew OR armor (at least with my mediocre fitting skills). Sometimes little room for a few drones, maybe a launcher hardpoint. While the other races I looked at got mining cruiser, EW cruiser, missile cruiser and railgun cruiser, or drone cruiser, cargo cruiser and blaster cruiser. Well there is the Arby but it's wasted on my current skills ;) And nothing's changing with the battlecruiser or battleships. While the Ferox might have its flaws, it offers options. I can fit it with mostly launchers or mostly turrets. My Prophecy only allows mostly turrets, the two battleships - turrets. And armor. Or armor. Plain boring, and it really saddened me to learn that both new Amarr ships will again be lightshow platforms. I was so hoping for the Abbadon to become more like the Arby when I saw the concept art - atypical for Amarr, a change from the boring laser+armor formula which, as anyone who bothered to read up on the whole topic should know by now, is underpowered to begin with. But no, they chose to release more ships which aren't much different from each other and old ships besides slightly different grids and damage-to-tank ratios. Seriously, WTF is up with that? Do they design Amarr ships last after they have spent all their creativity on the other three races? There's another issue with the lack of options for Amarr players - if our main characteristic is "broken", we can't even hop in a differently designed ship as there are hardly any, and those that are (Khanid designs) mostly suck even more. If armor + blasters was underpowered a Gallente pilot could usually still use other ships of the same class. If missiles were underpowered a Caldari pilot picks the rail or EW focused ships (I guess that's why people want the Rokh so much, because missiles aren't so hot in PvP). We're stuck with crappy lasers and underwhelming armor tanks unless people want to go back to cruisers or all the way up to HACs. Or go cross-faction, but that really can't be the solution to Amarr issues... As killing stuff with only EM+thermal got tiresome, I fitted my punisher with autocannons. As my hopes for the new ships were crushed, I stopped training Amarr altogether, my Prophecy is currently demoted to mining duty and I really don't see how any of this is gonna change soon. I'm on my way to Raven and eventually Rokh now even though that means becoming yet another Caldari pilot :( Sorry for the essay... TLDR, I guess - anyone with ADD just take this as a bump and leave it at this ;) [power corrupts, absolute power is kind of neat]
Lady Loom
Amarr
Posted - 2006.09.19 22:01:00 -
[2283 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 19/09/2006 21:37:58 Well if you serieusly feel ammar is crap, train into other races a couple levels so you can use em properly and than put rest of sp back into ammar. You wont regret it. Took CCP more than 2 years to give blasterthron and drones some love. Shamefully ECM ****** the game up completely, making dominix teh uber. Once nos is nerfed and ecm aswell, ammar will do better. Because their have low sensorstrenght will hurt em less, tankability and capbonus will pwn because injecting cap becomes less popular..(its part of cap than can be nossed). Couple T1 ships from ammar need boosting, especially the omen and fitting specs of some weapons fixed. But in the end ammar isnt really that bad. Npcing with a geddon is still very good because you get lots of damage, range and no ammo usage. Range means you dont need to move close to the target that you want to kill. imo 80% em and 20% therm on radio and multispec a 60% em and 40% therm will do fine for ammar. Kin, therm and explosive used to be heavy tanked while em remained untanked. This is over now, you need to adapt to it. Also because npcing hasnt changed i laugh @ damage/tanking arguments concerning npcing. you still don't get it, and just because it took CCP ages to fix issues with "your" race doesn't mean it's justified taking so damn long *again* while giving no feedback to IMO legitimate questions/issues whatsoever [power corrupts, absolute power is kind of neat]
mallina
CaldariTurbulent
Posted - 2006.09.20 00:38:00 -
[2284 ]
i would be fine with amarr if they: - nerfed fitting requirements on the more powerful guns (med pulse+beam/heavy pulse+beam/mega pulse and tachs) to use as little as 10% and as much as 30% less powergrid - reduced the cap requirements of armor repairers when fitted on Amarr ships, especially Punisher/Maller/Prophecy/Apoc - nerfed NOS - nerfed ECM fixed :) ----------- <3 Turbulance
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.09.20 01:47:00 -
[2285 ]
The Pirate in my Pants would stand up and salute if only Tuxy would give some indication that he thought Amarr were ok as is, or needs tweaking just for some feedback. Still waiting to hear about my black Khanid armor tankers. Teh Pirate in my Pants says "YARRRRR give Amarr some ♥!!" Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Low Blow
AmarrBlack Eclipse Corp
Posted - 2006.09.20 02:39:00 -
[2286 ]
Amarr is fine ? NO CCP answers your questions ? No, not yet because they are obviously still thinking about what to do about that. "only the dead have seen the end of the war"
Altraz
Posted - 2006.09.20 02:42:00 -
[2287 ]
It does seem that thereÆs an ongrowing 78 page thread on Amarr balance alone, but not a single reply from the DevÆs regarding this issue. Looking at the current lag and node loading issues, I do understand the severity of other issues compared to this, but itÆll be nice to have the DevÆs give a word on if theyÆre looking to change this in particular or ignoring our rants altogether instead of getting a silent treatment and the typical ôWe have plans to do what we deem necessaryö reply. Though weÆre just paying customers, we have feelings too, you know. Cheers!
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.20 02:44:00 -
[2288 ]
nerfing NoS will screw up the best ship Amarr got :( curse is like the only ship i have fun playing with now its the only one that ECM dont screw much and most verstile if NoS gets nerfed then ECM/Dampening be nerfed too i got 5 mill in drones ........... wish i was gallante lol The Master Of ChaosPlease resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Double TaP
The Establishment
Posted - 2006.09.20 03:04:00 -
[2289 ]
holy god 78 pages
Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet Pirate Coalition
Posted - 2006.09.20 03:49:00 -
[2290 ]
Ok here is a good solution. 1) Make Amarr crystals have limited charges per crystal. A set amount of charges, none of this volatility nonsense. That way the "amarr dont use ammo" whine is removed. 2) Add more damage types for Amarr. EM and Thermal? Thats just retarded. 3) Less cap usage for Lasers. As it stands, lasers use so much cap that CCP is practically forced to implement this damn "10% reduction for cap usage" bonus. This bonus heavily weakens Amarr ships since other ships usually have a Damage and some other bonus. Cap reduction? Come on get real. AMARR NEED LOVE! ===============================================
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.20 03:57:00 -
[2291 ]
Originally by: Scoundrelus Ok here is a good solution. 1) Make Amarr crystals have limited charges per crystal. A set amount of charges, none of this volatility nonsense. That way the "amarr dont use ammo" whine is removed. 2) Add more damage types for Amarr. EM and Thermal? Thats just retarded. 3) Less cap usage for Lasers. As it stands, lasers use so much cap that CCP is practically forced to implement this damn "10% reduction for cap usage" bonus. This bonus heavily weakens Amarr ships since other ships usually have a Damage and some other bonus. Cap reduction? Come on get real. AMARR NEED LOVE! Signed :) The Master Of ChaosPlease resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Tyris Maelstrom
Minmatar5th Front enterprises New Eve Order
Posted - 2006.09.20 04:08:00 -
[2292 ]
Though i can understand the need for wanting Kinetic and Explosive dmg types added to Lasers, in a realistic point of view it's impossible. Lasers can't do those dmg types, they don't have the right properties to do so. Sucks I know, I have a Khanid, but that's how it is. You'd almost have to come up with a new weapon type.
Tor Anasa
Posted - 2006.09.20 04:36:00 -
[2293 ]
Originally by: Scoundrelus Ok here is a good solution. 1) Make Amarr crystals have limited charges per crystal. A set amount of charges, none of this volatility nonsense. That way the "amarr dont use ammo" whine is removed. 2) Add more damage types for Amarr. EM and Thermal? Thats just retarded. 3) Less cap usage for Lasers. As it stands, lasers use so much cap that CCP is practically forced to implement this damn "10% reduction for cap usage" bonus. This bonus heavily weakens Amarr ships since other ships usually have a Damage and some other bonus. Cap reduction? Come on get real. AMARR NEED LOVE! Uh understand that i don't fly amarr and that this is from an outsiders pospective, but; Isn't that just taking the amarr out of the amarr? Or, more specifically, the laser out of the lasers? by making the changes you suggest you make lasers behave in generally the same way as hybrid. As many people have stated, ad nauseum over the last 78 (!!!) pages, the problem is that amarr do crud-all damage to the normal armour tank, and that the most prevelant tank in the game is armour. As you suggest, one way to fix this would be to change the damage types (Or add another) that lasers do. The reason that i believe this will not happen is that, story-line wise, how do lasers do hitting damage? (Maybe add explosive damage?) So, the only way left to fix it would be to make shield tanking more attractive. The second point about lasers doing em and thermal damage being retarded originally made me think "Oh well, hybrids only do 2 damage types too, get over it" but then i thought about it. The problem is that EM and Thermal don't eat through armour, while the hybrids thermal/kinetic lets you eat through either type of tank in a reasonable amount of time. One slight change that may help would be to increase the thermal damage that lasers do, at expense of the em damage. Having not flown amarr beyond frigates, i can't really comment on your third point aside from saying that High cap usage is a laser "trait" and that lasers should use more cap then other weapons. However i agree that when ccp need to put cap use reduction bonuses on multiple ships to make them workable this does need to be looked at. Amarr do need fixing (And this is from a caldari player so i'm not really biased...) but i don't think that the suggested changes would be the best way to go about doing this. Tor
Shugo Kazuma
Posted - 2006.09.20 04:47:00 -
[2294 ]
Originally by: Tyris Maelstrom Though i can understand the need for wanting Kinetic and Explosive dmg types added to Lasers, in a realistic point of view it's impossible. Lasers can't do those dmg types, they don't have the right properties to do so. Sucks I know, I have a Khanid, but that's how it is. You'd almost have to come up with a new weapon type. Realism if rather fortunatly not a huge part of EVE. Realistically, lasers don't generate EM fields either, yet they do mostly EM damage. Personally I don't think there's so much really wrong with the ships so much as the weapon's delivery system is slightly out of whack. Why should Amarr ships need a 10% reduction per level of amarr spaceship command to lasers to be able to get effective use out of them? That just sounds absurd. That would be like making all guns have half their current ROF and giving ships a "Guns fire 10% faster per level" bonus. BTW, that khnaid MK2 thread sounds like an excellent idea. Spice up space a little, I didn't see many objections to it when I read it. And when you see an idea to boost a race made by someone who's not really interested in seeing said race boosted, and see no general anti-posts, it must be a good thing.
Stephar
The High Priest
Posted - 2006.09.20 05:01:00 -
[2295 ]
Originally by: Tyris Maelstrom Though i can understand the need for wanting Kinetic and Explosive dmg types added to Lasers, in a realistic point of view it's impossible. Lasers can't do those dmg types, they don't have the right properties to do so. Sucks I know, I have a Khanid, but that's how it is. You'd almost have to come up with a new weapon type. Photons have momentum and kinetic energy. Several named beams are called "particle streams." Particles have wave-like properties, and waves (light) have particle-like properties. I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch to say that lasers can do kinetic damage. Besides, all thermal energy is just kinetic energy, which means that all thermal damage is essentially kinetic damage.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.09.20 05:56:00 -
[2296 ]
EVE>>>>>>>>>Reality in most aspects TBH. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Akkreniel
AmarrImperial Academy
Posted - 2006.09.20 06:07:00 -
[2297 ]
Christ, 78 pages and counting. Amarrian-spec players am cry. I wonder how many pages this will be when I come back from my month break...
Lord Seth
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.20 06:34:00 -
[2298 ]
Hmmm... You guys are crazy! Amarr rocks! Why, Just the other day me and 2 other Geddons(1+2=3) Fully damage fitted managed to kill 1 vindicator!
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.20 10:12:00 -
[2299 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 20/09/2006 10:13:21 Originally by: madaluap ...capbonus will pwn because injecting cap becomes less popular..(its part of cap than can be nossed). Depends what the nos-"nerf" will be. And even if it makes cap battery enegry un-nossable, people will still use cap injectors far more frequently. Because for anything above frigs cap batteries SUCK. Would you rather have (with max energy management) +700 unnossable cap (leaving you with 10-15% cap on BSs) or +800 cap every 15 sec? Of cource, cap batteries have far lower fitting reqs than cap injectos, but you only have so many med slots. They would need to have about twice the capacity and 3 times the fitting requs to be a real alternative for cap boosters (if they are unnossable). Quote: Range means you dont need to move close to the target that you want to kill. Tecnically, yes, but even a blasterthron can do with null still quite impressive damage up to 20 km. To *really* use the range bonus you would need a (non-faction) 30 km disruptor. Or a tackler, of cource. But a blasterthron + tackler won't have any issues with getting close, for example. A tackler helps it as much as it helps a "med-range" ship. Quote: imo 80% em and 20% therm on radio and multispec a 60% em and 40% therm will do fine for ammar. So you want to NERF multifreq from 58/42 EM/therm to 60/40 EM/therm?
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.20 10:58:00 -
[2300 ]
Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Tyris Maelstrom Though i can understand the need for wanting Kinetic and Explosive dmg types added to Lasers, in a realistic point of view it's impossible. Lasers can't do those dmg types, they don't have the right properties to do so. Sucks I know, I have a Khanid, but that's how it is. You'd almost have to come up with a new weapon type. Photons have momentum and kinetic energy. Several named beams are called "particle streams." Particles have wave-like properties, and waves (light) have particle-like properties. I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch to say that lasers can do kinetic damage. Besides, all thermal energy is just kinetic energy, which means that all thermal damage is essentially kinetic damage. No thats wrong - all that needs to happen is some programmer opens up the EVE database and add in a item with whatever flag dictates damagetype However, I dont really think the answer is exp or kin damage on lasers - I think the answer is 10x more structure on all ships :) ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
KillerLU
X1 Industries
Posted - 2006.09.20 10:59:00 -
[2301 ]
I always read this thread, cause it's funny to see all this different opinions and how they dispute Well I'll add my 2 ISK here to get flamed... Geddon is fine as it is. The Apoc is the best tanker BS (beside slave gistii Raven and faction ship), but it totally lacks on the DPS side as it cannot use lasers while keeping the tank up, while other BSs can do both well. I would love if the Apoc gets a big drone bay to be able to fight back. With the new Abba it will also lose his role as a tachyon boat, so add 1 low slot + 1 med slow and removing 2 high slot would also look good imo. Abba (well not out yet, but we can dream, can we?) able to fit 8 tachyons, 3 Heatsink, Cap injector and lot's of passive tanking without any PDUs or Proc and having enough Cap to fire his guns a while.... Prophecy think it's not bad, haven't fly it often... but I always lost against a Brutix hehe (was a noob) Maller could get some more PG and CPU. I would love to see a Maller with a whole stack of Heavy beams. Omen also need some more PG, to fit the gun easier. +10m3 to drones bay would get it a bit closer to the DPS of the Thorax. Other cruiser are fine. Coercer could lose one low for a med. For frigates, Puni is fine, Inqui is a bit hard to fit, but it's ok, Exec is fine, Cruci needs a survey bonus instead of the senseless Cap red. bonus, and Torm does his job. For T2 ship: Retri is a great tanker/damage dealer and I prefer it unchanged. Crusader is ok. The Khanid ships aren't bad, when you use em for tackling, but in all the other aspect they suck or are behind other ships. Sarmauls suggestion is the best I've seen yet. For the other ships I cannot speak as I can't fly them. medium Beams need to have lower fitting req. heavy beams coul also need that. For the EAMII issue, well I think it's ok. before RMR lasers were good against shield and armor. Now, to be honest, I think it's fairer than before. With the new BSs we'll see how the shield/armor tanker balance will be, which is a bit broken atm. Cap reduction bonus is fine, I just hope that we see some more ship without it like the Abba. Tou to boost controlled burst skill would be nice. To change ammo damage I say NO! (except maybe on T2 ammo) but to balance crystals a bit to do more therm damage as they do now would be good (Radio mainly). OK NOW FLAME AT ME -------------- Recruiting: Check our Recruitement thread or our HP
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.20 15:42:00 -
[2302 ]
Originally by: Tyris Maelstrom Though i can understand the need for wanting Kinetic and Explosive dmg types added to Lasers, in a realistic point of view it's impossible. Lasers can't do those dmg types, they don't have the right properties to do so. You'd almost have to come up with a new weapon type. I'm pretty sure a "Laser" in Eve bears as much relation to the LASERs we know as a "1400 Artillery" bears to a 20th century howitzer. Hell, just because they call it a laser doesn't even mean it is an actual laser - current lasers don't fire beams of tachyons either! Maybe the name became a generic one for beam weapons whatever the principle, who knows? Don't get hung up on contemporary/RL physics - balance is far more important!
Phyrexia Tarzig
Posted - 2006.09.20 17:44:00 -
[2303 ]
Edited by: Phyrexia Tarzig on 20/09/2006 17:46:57 Ehhh....lasers don't really do 'EM damage' either, in real terms, they're just a game mechanic here in EVE. I do wonder whether the EM concept is even warranted.....we have 3 broad weapon types, hybrid laser and projectiles, which would cover the 3 other damage types, and 2 tank types....so 1 vs. shields primarily, 1 vs. armour primarily and 1 50/50? Obviously the prevalence of armour tanks would mean that an actual 50/50 split would be silly, but my point is that EM damage gimps lasers....and so, what's the EM damage here for? Edited because I can't spell >.<
Azaries
CaldariChosen Path Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.09.20 17:59:00 -
[2304 ]
Even if the damage types were just switched from primary EM to primary Thermal this would be a start.
Xendie
Hunter Killers
Posted - 2006.09.21 03:31:00 -
[2305 ]
Originally by: Azaries Even if the damage types were just switched from primary EM to primary Thermal this would be a start. the em/thermal swap will help some but im afraid that it wont be enough to put amarr on par with the other races. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Alekzander
CaldariScorn.
Posted - 2006.09.21 04:09:00 -
[2306 ]
Edited by: Alekzander on 21/09/2006 04:10:59 Would this thread PLEASE JUST DIE. How can you Amarr generate this much garbage? Your putting the minmatar to shame for jeebus sakes. I should pod malkan for making this thread 4 months ago.
Siakel
Posted - 2006.09.21 04:13:00 -
[2307 ]
Originally by: Alekzander Edited by: Alekzander on 21/09/2006 04:10:59 Would this thread PLEASE JUST DIE. How can you Amarr generate this much garbage? Your putting the minmatar to shame for jeebus sakes. I should pod malkan for making this thread 4 months ago. And thank you for your insightful, well thought-out post backed up with facts to prove your point. You, sir, are an example to us all.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.21 09:26:00 -
[2308 ]
Originally by: Alekzander Edited by: Alekzander on 21/09/2006 04:10:59 Would this thread PLEASE JUST DIE. How can you Amarr generate this much garbage? Your putting the minmatar to shame for jeebus sakes. I should pod malkan for making this thread 4 months ago. Then I challange you to pod him in a Amarr Turret ship, then you will see what this thread is all about! ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Critta
Black Omega Security E.R.A
Posted - 2006.09.21 09:38:00 -
[2309 ]
Originally by: Scoundrelus Make Amarr crystals have limited charges per crystal. A set amount of charges, none of this volatility nonsense. That way the "amarr dont use ammo" whine is removed. Amarr not using ammo is one of our greatest strengths (my alt is fully amarr spec so I know this well) Originally by: Scoundrelus Add more damage types for Amarr. EM and Thermal? Thats just retarded. Rails only do kintic and thermal, do you see rail users whining? Lasers have rediculous DPS, this is normally enough that the EM damage against armour doesn't matter too much. Also, there are plenty of amarr ships that can use either drones or missiles, this allows you to do other types of damage. Where is the problem? Originally by: Scoundrelus Less cap usage for Lasers. As it stands, lasers use so much cap that CCP is practically forced to implement this damn "10% reduction for cap usage" bonus. This bonus heavily weakens Amarr ships since other ships usually have a Damage and some other bonus. Cap reduction? Come on get real. Lasers have a naturally higher DPS than all the other guns, we don't need a damage bonus to stay on par, those ships that do get a laser damage or RoF bonus are just rediculous. Originally by: Scoundrelus AMARR NEED LOVE! I think you just need to love the Amarr a little more dude. Look, it's been 78 pages. Does the lack of a dev reply not say that maybe they think Amarr are balanced?
Perry
AmarrThe X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.21 09:54:00 -
[2310 ]
Yes shut up amarr are so fine, their Equipment costs only half as much if not less! I want to keep these superior prices. Sacrilege 80m isk Ishtar 220m isk! This clearly shows us that the Sacrelige is superior because you get 3 Sacs for 1 Ishtar! And all three will be destroyed by that one Ishtar. Err wait thats not so nice anymore. Boost Amarr!
CB Cyrix
GeoTech
Posted - 2006.09.21 10:48:00 -
[2311 ]
Im outa here, ive cancelled my subscription. Being 35milsp in pure amarr means nothing anymore really. Im bord, I have nothing to look towards and someone a few months old can do what I do better for cheaper price. Sucks really. So cya all, I hope Amarr gets fixed for you all
Raven LeSage
Posted - 2006.09.21 11:01:00 -
[2312 ]
Ummm CB Cyrix ... why quit? Why not learn missiles or hybrids and switch to a different race? Many of the skills you have are universal (mechanic, engineer, navigation etc.) so it will not take as long as an alt. :)
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.21 11:07:00 -
[2313 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 21/09/2006 11:08:48 Originally by: Critta Amarr not using ammo is one of our greatest strengths (my alt is fully amarr spec so I know this well) Strength where? For NPCing? There I counter with having higher resistance ranges. Other races have, for example, vs the 1.25 mil BS ranges of 50-60% average resistances (including term/kin only gallente). Amarr have 50-70%. So, yes, they have an advantage. Too bad they can only really use them vs sanshas & bloods. Vs other rats the higher resistances counter the "no ammo" advantage just nicely. And this is even without going into the t2 area, where lasers have it worst of all weapons with ammo. Originally by: Scoundrelus Rails only do kintic and thermal, do you see rail users whining? Lasers have rediculous DPS, this is normally enough that the EM damage against armour doesn't matter too much. Also, there are plenty of amarr ships that can use either drones or missiles, this allows you to do other types of damage. Where is the problem? Hybrids have pretty even damage against the base resistances of shields & armor, so any numerical imbalance there does not effect them. Lasers have far higher resistance vs armor than vs shields. Since we have - under perfect conditions - right now twice as many armortankers than shieldtankers they are in a disadvantage. If you compare a rail with a 25% damage bonus and a same size beam laser with the 50% cap bonus (which is fine, btw, you are right there) the rail does (slightly) MORE dps. So, sorry, the "rediculous DPS" of lasers does not counter this. And lastely, all caldari missle ships have also turret slots. Does that make them good gunships? The existance of soe,thing does not necessarily make the ship really good at it. On average amarr have only the 3rd biggest dronebay of all races.
mysts
Posted - 2006.09.21 12:04:00 -
[2314 ]
Edited by: mysts on 21/09/2006 12:05:49 Edited by: mysts on 21/09/2006 12:04:14 Originally by: Alekzander Edited by: Alekzander on 21/09/2006 04:10:59 Would this thread PLEASE JUST DIE. How can you Amarr generate this much garbage? Your putting the minmatar to shame for jeebus sakes. I should pod malkan for making this thread 4 months ago. I dare you to fight a Pilgrim in any laser turret ship or whatever, Pilgrim using drones and the other ship using lasers and see what happens. Isn't it ironic that the only 2 working amarr ships aren't based on lasers ? duh ? And if you won't dare do it, will you PLEASE JUST DIE ? ps. by the only two ships I ment curse and pilgrim.
Altraz
Posted - 2006.09.21 12:07:00 -
[2315 ]
I believe most of the people who thinks Amarr's fine don't have Amarr as their main race. (Which sometimes makes my blood boil) Dev's said Amarr should be able to tank well, go close, fire all their guns and come out alive. Right now, that's hardly the case. If our ships are not doing what the intent of what the race is marketed to be, then where's the just? I know it'll take me 274 muscles to frown but I wish you were closer 'cause it only takes 4 to reach out my hand and ***** slap one across the face. We just lost one good Amarian due to frustration of it. Let hope EVE won't end up being a 3 race game.
Xendie
Hunter Killers
Posted - 2006.09.21 13:27:00 -
[2316 ]
Originally by: Alekzander Edited by: Alekzander on 21/09/2006 04:10:59 Would this thread PLEASE JUST DIE. How can you Amarr generate this much garbage? Your putting the minmatar to shame for jeebus sakes. I should pod malkan for making this thread 4 months ago. maybe it is because there is a imbalance. the minmatars ships are working very nice so i dont know why you would pull them into the discussion. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Vance Black
CaldariORIGIN SYSTEMS Knights Of the Southerncross
Posted - 2006.09.21 14:10:00 -
[2317 ]
Apoc cant keep tank AND guns going? dont make me laugh. My T2 fit apoc runs megapulse 2s and a full dual rep tank forever. --------------------------------- Your clone is mine
Xelia
Posted - 2006.09.21 14:25:00 -
[2318 ]
Quote: Apoc cant keep tank AND guns going? dont make me laugh. My T2 fit apoc runs megapulse 2s and a full dual rep tank forever. Ya, with no damage mods right? Pumping out a massive 350 damage no less eh? at a range of ass -1 and with a tracking of decent/2 with conflag? Not to mention the problem with high em resists lol, thats a ship to fear condsidering your mids would be full of cap recharges to 'tank forever'.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.09.21 14:42:00 -
[2319 ]
Originally by: Vance Black Apoc cant keep tank AND guns going? dont make me laugh. My T2 fit apoc runs megapulse 2s and a full dual rep tank forever. dual small rep? - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Justin Cody
CaldariThe Bratwurst Burglars
Posted - 2006.09.21 14:59:00 -
[2320 ]
I have piloted Amarr for over two years now and I must say lasers are great for NPCing anything that doesn't move or have EM resists over 50%. In combat...geddon > apoc for small group combat. As far as the whole particle vs wave discussion there is some truth to lasers having a small kinetic effect, butmore of that is from the loss of mass as the laser ablates whatever material it hits. The tachyon beam weapon should perhaps give the user not an additional damage type, but have the ability to ignore the tactical shield manipulation skill and breach shields easier, as well as breaching armor in to structure. In that sense tach's could also target ship sub-systems much more effectively once that feature makes it in to the game. Then having less damagemight bemitigated by tactical use. Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.21 15:52:00 -
[2321 ]
Originally by: Critta NPC'ing it's incredibly useful, that I'll definitely agree with. Tbh, I don't see the resistances being too much of a problem, I've happily ratted every NPC type going (except for Angels) using an Amarr character, I would say the lack of having to do any logistics at all is far more of an advantage than you give it credit for. Just keep going until you get bored making isk. Being able to rat != being able to rat effeciently. Killing rats is easy. Killing them fast is the key, though. Money is isk/time. Since my corp is in angel territory I switched from a prophecy to a cyclone for ratting. With ACs. You know, the weapon with the highest ammoconsumption in game. I simply pack my cargohold full of ammo and go ratting. Lasts hours. And I kill them about twice as fast as if I had a proph due to resistances. Vs gurista it would not be much different. Vs serp laser would do about the same effective dps as projectiles, but gallente/caldari ships would be better there. Amarr are due to no reloads and the impossibility to run out of ammo the most uncomplicated race to rat with, but vs anything but sansha & blood you'll make more money/time with other races. There they are the race for the lazy, but not for the smart. Quote: Final point on ammo, other turret users (and missile boats as well) have the annoying 10 second reloading pauses in longer fights, which adversely effects their DPS, we do not have this issue at all and as such, our DPS is constant. Exept this is inculded in the weapon dps balance. For example, without reloads a 250mm rail has 1.07 times the dps of a heavy beam. With reloads it's 1.02 times. Originally by: Scoundrelus Ok, so with a 25% damage bonus rails do more damage... fair enough, so if someone takes a 15-30 days to train their ship skill to 5, they can do slightly more DPS than we can with lvl1 skills in our ship of choice? Personally I don't see this as being too much of an issue. Amarr also need to get their ship lvl to lvl 5 eventually or need to include more cap regen modules in their ship to keep it from running out. It's not that amarr do not "need" lvl 5 shipskill less. Quote: Further to this, we *DO* have ships with damage bonuses, add this into the equation and the already high natural DPS is taken even further than before, meaning that in ships with a damage bonus we have MORE DPS than they do! As do other races. Quote: My point on the missiles/drones argument... The point is this this does not matter because other races have drones, too. And, exept caldari, usually more/bigger ones, too. So whatever dps amarr get from drones other ships get too. Usually more as well. Basically: lasers with resistance problems + drones <-> weapon with no resistance problems + (more) drones Amarr would need to use drones *better* than other races to make them balance out the resistance problem. Otherwise you might as well argue that we have these handy heat sinks which boost our weapons, countering the higher resistances and ignoring that other races have stuff like this too.
Auryn Darkblade
Caldari4th Cohort
Posted - 2006.09.21 16:13:00 -
[2322 ]
Originally by: Vance Black Apoc cant keep tank AND guns going? dont make me laugh. My T2 fit apoc runs megapulse 2s and a full dual rep tank forever. I'd pay money to see a DPS / Tank Apoc beat ANY other races battleship 1v1. It just aint happening, certianly not vs a Megathron, Domininx, Raven, or Tempest. -So sorry __________________________________________________ [17:31:19] dnkuanggong2 > i m china i love evebus i on love t4r4
Alekzander
CaldariScorn.
Posted - 2006.09.21 16:19:00 -
[2323 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Alekzander Edited by: Alekzander on 21/09/2006 04:10:59 Would this thread PLEASE JUST DIE. How can you Amarr generate this much garbage? Your putting the minmatar to shame for jeebus sakes. I should pod malkan for making this thread 4 months ago. Then I challange you to pod him in a Amarr Turret ship, then you will see what this thread is all about! I know what its about, I've read parts of it over the months, the issues are blatantly aparent, everything in this thread has been discussed at least five times, if not more. EANM IIs are over powered, laser's primary damage type is heavily resisted, cap bonus isnt really a bonus but a requirement, etc... My point is, why continue to discuss all this futher?
Xelia
Posted - 2006.09.21 16:32:00 -
[2324 ]
Quote: dual small rep? Nah, if you ignore the fact that it doesn't have the power grid to fit the 8x mega pulse tech 2 in addition to the 2x LAR tech 2 (even with adv weap 5/eng 5) with full skills the apoc will regen 97 cap/sec and use 95 cap/sec at max, so ya, it will run, except the power grid thing. Of course to get that you need the 4 mids with tech 2 cap rechargers and 2 lows using CPRs. I think the bigger joke here is the damage at 16km and less. With the .017? tracking speed it won't hit jack...
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.21 16:51:00 -
[2325 ]
i think i will train for minmatar already can use tech2 small artillery and autocannons only pain is getting BS lvl 5 lol for minnie The Master Of ChaosPlease resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Phyrexia Tarzig
Posted - 2006.09.21 21:01:00 -
[2326 ]
Lasers don't use ammo? Yes they do, it's called 'cap'. Every other race loads ammo into their weapons.....we load it into our mids and lows....
Auryn Darkblade
Caldari4th Cohort
Posted - 2006.09.21 23:02:00 -
[2327 ]
Originally by: LordChaos i think i will train for minmatar already can use tech2 small artillery and autocannons only pain is getting BS lvl 5 lol for minnie I went with Gallente for my Amarr alternate, since they Armor tank 100% and I already had drone skills really high from going towards the Curse / Pilgrim route, Plus, Gallente blaster gunnery skills are important too. It was actually pretty darned easy to switch over to Gallente and get good skills to fly a Dominix. Pretty much anyone will agree that a Dominix is a VERY good ship in small group PvP engagements. I'm not saying that I will NEVER go back to Amarr ships (as I am still posting in this thread trying to refute the idiots who post a one line "Amarr are OK you guys are whiners!" posts) but in order for me to ever put an Amarr ship in my hanger again ( I currently have only an Apoc to futz around with on lvl 4 missions) CCP is going to have to make some very sweeping changes to Amarr ships / Laser weapon systems. __________________________________________________ [17:31:19] dnkuanggong2 > i m china i love evebus i on love t4r4
Jazz Bo
CaldariCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.21 23:24:00 -
[2328 ]
Originally by: Justin Cody The tachyon beam weapon should perhaps give the user not an additional damage type, but have the ability to ignore the tactical shield manipulation skill and breach shields easier, as well as breaching armor in to structure. Erm.. no thanks. We had damage bleeding through armor into structure before, it only made armor tanking impossible since your ship could go ka-boom with 50% armor left merely because all the structure had melted away. But if you want to see shield tanking Armageddons again, why not. Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew.... squisssh!
Justin Cody
CaldariThe Bratwurst Burglars
Posted - 2006.09.22 00:51:00 -
[2329 ]
well at least let it be better at sub system targetting Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
Lord Seth
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.22 06:28:00 -
[2330 ]
Edited by: Lord Seth on 22/09/2006 06:28:51 Originally by: Phyrexia Tarzig Lasers don't use ammo? Yes they do, it's called 'cap'. Every other race loads ammo into their weapons.....we load it into our mids and lows.... A-f`n-men Short and BOOM HEAD SHOOT TO ALL THOSE nOObs that say "but Amarr dont need ammo....you have such a advantage"..blah blah blah.... -Put that in your pipe and smoke it
Toshiro Khan
Gallente
Posted - 2006.09.22 09:50:00 -
[2331 ]
Originally by: Lord Seth Edited by: Lord Seth on 22/09/2006 06:28:51 Originally by: Phyrexia Tarzig Lasers don't use ammo? Yes they do, it's called 'cap'. Every other race loads ammo into their weapons.....we load it into our mids and lows.... A-f`n-men Short and BOOM HEAD SHOOT TO ALL THOSE nOObs that say "but Amarr dont need ammo....you have such a advantage"..blah blah blah.... -Put that in your pipe and smoke it Head shot Denied .... If thats the case can we have something done about hybrid weapons then.. If Amarr class cap as ammo.. then Hybrid users are having to use two forms of ammo per shot as that have to use their normal rounds plus cap.
hybridundertaker
AmarrThe Blackwater Brigade
Posted - 2006.09.22 12:01:00 -
[2332 ]
Edited by: hybridundertaker on 22/09/2006 12:05:45 amarr pilots should see the bright side of it: as our ships sincerely suck donkey balls (we are nt best either in short mid or long range, we arent best tankers, we dont have higher damage output,we dont have either agility or speed, oue ew is quasi inexistant-yes we all know those ew drones are pure ****, yes we are easy to nos, yes we need no ammo but hell id prefer ammo to expensive crystals t2 draining ****loads of cap) WE AT LEAST ARENT CALLED PRIMARY :) and we live long enought to experience the frustration of empty capacitor (u can scream with empty CAP: Yes IM AMARR mighty AmAAR i need no ammo just give me few mins to recharge my cap!!!). If u dont like the capless deal then u can take those damge mods off and u can proudly shout out : ''yes im amarr we rule i just wrecked for 150. I could run that tank 23/7 bit he broke it and i couldnt brake his tank.'' t3 amarr battleship could help us not being the suckers anymore but i bet that the domi will kick its ass in nos range 10 out of 10 times. Honestly amarr t1 ships are one of the saddest things in this game. The t2 ships got some potential but the damage limitation to em/thermal makes them really weak comparing to other races hacs. I hope we amarr get some of that dev love we need desperatly... in the meanwhile ill train for the projectiles :P
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.22 12:11:00 -
[2333 ]
Originally by: Justin Cody The tachyon beam weapon should perhaps give the user not an additional damage type, but have the ability to ignore the tactical shield manipulation skill and breach shields easier, as well as breaching armor in to structure. Nah, tachyons are faster than light, so a tachyon beam weapon should strip a target's shield, weapons and hull before the target even realises he's taking damage. Well, it sounds better than calling it "lag" doesn't it?
Exortius Amarrus
The Clearwater Society THE H0RDE
Posted - 2006.09.22 16:41:00 -
[2334 ]
Originally by: Alekzander I know what its about, I've read parts of it over the months, the issues are blatantly aparent, everything in this thread has been discussed at least five times, if not more. EANM IIs are over powered, laser's primary damage type is heavily resisted, cap bonus isnt really a bonus but a requirement, etc... My point is, why continue to discuss all this futher? Because this issue is not yet resolved. As a paying customer, i feel i'm within my rights to ***** about this until i have some closure. If a dev came on this thread and said: "Amarr are fine, we're not messing with them", I would happily continue to train into Caldari, and forget i ever flew Amarr. If a dev said "Amarr have issues, and we're going to address them", I would consider switching back to Amarr. At the moment, my only option is to continue complaining. I would expect Caldari or Gallente pilots to do the same were their ships similarly gimped. ------------------------
john2
MinmatarDrones of Annihilation
Posted - 2006.09.22 22:03:00 -
[2335 ]
so i got 28 mill pure in ammar so because cpp can t be arse to balance it out a bit better i should train a other race. i like at the begainning where it say you have a choice what you do i think they are forcing other player to train over race. WHAT SUCKS
Soratah
AmarrUbiqua Seraph Aegis Militia
Posted - 2006.09.22 22:56:00 -
[2336 ]
Edited by: Soratah on 22/09/2006 23:03:59 Originally by: Vance Black Apoc cant keep tank AND guns going? dont make me laugh. My T2 fit apoc runs megapulse 2s and a full dual rep tank forever. I believe other races Battleships can do that with purely t1 stuff. The whole issue here is that SOME ships are ... ok for Amarrian forces, however for them to be .... ok then you have to have millions in skillpoints (mostly engineering/gunnery) to make up and compete with other races' ships. That's a definite imbalance Personally, I'd prefer the Amarrians axe laser weapons (making them specialist equipment to target subsystems when it gets implemented) in favor of Plasma technology. Something that fits in the ethos and would explain an boost in thermal damage over EM.
Rigo Kajjar
The Caravan Guards Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.23 12:41:00 -
[2337 ]
Well personally ... I got my "enlightenment" a few months back. Since then, I just stopped caring about lasers and started reskilling ... Dumping skill points hurts, but ...What exactly was done in the 4 months since this thread was started? Why do you think this will change in the next 4 months? From the time this thread was started to now, you can already have another large T2 spec, plus BS-5 of a different faction.
Soratah
AmarrUbiqua Seraph Aegis Militia
Posted - 2006.09.23 19:58:00 -
[2338 ]
Yes, everyone's training Caldari now... Guess we should all jump on the same bandwagon
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.23 20:10:00 -
[2339 ]
Yay, we are almost at 80 pages. I have never participated in external eve politics, until I started to have a serious problem with game ballence. I Like EANM improvements, but TBH I dont think the compensation skills should only apply passivly. Passive tanking has in many ways surpased active tanking, because the point in fitting active hardeners is to ACTIVATE THEM makeing the compensation skills a really bad investment of time unless you have run out of more useful skills to train (or are running passive tanks of course!) It makes no sense to me that EANM would get such a great boost to resistance, thus making a less CPU intensive, less cap intensive, less mod intensive tank for most armor tanking ships. IMHO active hardeners should provide more benefit then can ever be achieved passivly, Right now they are really only useful on ships like the zealot to fill in that thermal damage hole. Perhaps that is what the devs had in mind though, ships running one active to fill their biggest hole, and the rest passive? It also doesnt make sense to me (game ballence wise) that generically all ships have 0% EM shield resist and 60% armor resist. In fact, it seems a little wierd that anything would have resistances upbove the 30% margin naturally (on a mathmatical/ design level, not necessarily in how eve has been realized right now). As resistances are effectivly damage reduction, the art of fitting ships uniquely, and effectivly is kind of reduced signifficantly when you have resists that can almost be ignored (such as a 60% Em damage reduction, at 45% thermal is pushing it too in some cases). In fact, I am surprised shields have natural resistances at all. Anyways that last paragraph is more along the lines of hypothetical, as kind of my thoughts on if eve was designed differently, but definately not in changing base resistances. At this point in the game it would be very hard for the devs to implement major ballence changes. AND THAT in a nutshell is why there is no dev post to this blog. Simply that CCP cannot win this one with any statement they say, however, the point of this thread is to let it be known that amarr have ballence issues with other races because of what I like to call the mediocraty complex. CCP in the last couple patches have been blending what races do best into other races as well, In some cases obsoleting a racial specialty (such as armor tanks for amarr and/or gunship DPS, or to a lesser extent EW). If the devs wanted to make EVE relativly ballenced no matter what small changes occur it requires the opposite opproach. If you isolate racial specialties, and focus the races around superiority in those areas each race is ballenced simply because not all races would be able to match power in those areas. Also appeal for each race is obtained, since people can read what each race specializes in and decide if that is how they want to play the game. If amarr ships are supposed to tank then make them the best damn tanks in the game. As a closing comment, it aslo seems really silly that the devs would make the changes they did to EANM with skills simply because the devs want longer combat without having the possibility of "indefinate" combat. To achieve longer combat resistance CANNOT be high. If resistances are too easy to get up, then there is NO REASON to have more HP, since you will have indefinatly more HP with resistances (which can lead to "indefinate" combat). ALSO Hitpoints cant be drained away or repaired with ease. A specialized ship (such as logistics) should be able to repair 2-3 ships better then those ships can repair themselves. Lastly capacitor should be large enough to last the battle, but not recharge fast enough to maintain "tanked" status. This MEANS that capacitors would not drain quickly, but they would not recharge quickly either. Just some thoughts on the MAJOR changes the devs would have to make for "longer combat" to exist. Of corse CCP would also have to elimiate the BoB, I mean Blob
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.23 20:16:00 -
[2340 ]
Originally by: Soratah Edited by: Soratah on 22/09/2006 23:21:08 Originally by: Vance Black Apoc cant keep tank AND guns going? dont make me laugh. My T2 fit apoc runs megapulse 2s and a full dual rep tank forever. I believe other races Battleships can do that with purely t1 stuff. The whole issue here is that SOME ships are ... ok for Amarrian forces, however for them to be .... ok then you have to have millions in skillpoints (mostly engineering/gunnery) to make up and compete with other races' ships. That's a definite imbalance Personally, I'd prefer the Amarrians axe laser weapons (making them specialist equipment to target subsystems when it gets implemented) in favor of Plasma technology. Something that fits in the ethos and would explain an boost in thermal damage over EM. I like the sound of that. Its bull**** that people think amarr should suck because we use capacitor instead of ammo, and that lasers need/have built in damage bonuses. If that is going to be how people look at things then screw it, make amarr use a weapon that uses ammo as well, either make it have helluva high DPS and use the same cap +ammo as lasers to, or reduce the cap to 1/4 what lasers do because of the ammo use. PLUS OUR TECH II LASERS USE MORE AMMO THEN ANY OTHER RACE!!!... It costs me 2000 isk per shot if I am using L gleam, so arguing that amarr need gimping because other races use ammo is only HALF true... ALSO null is just better then all other forms of ammo :P I think I am going to train gallente when I am done with the skills I am training, just because NULL ammo is just too good to pass up or complain about. Who knows, maybe I will fit blasters to my apoc :/
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.09.23 21:46:00 -
[2341 ]
I wouldn't complain about EAN IIs if a good 2/3s of the ships that I encountered in pvp were shield tankers. And thats besides the point that isk & cap wise it makes more sense to run 1 em, 2x Invuln II, and a DC. I would be "yarring" up the universe. Is it any wonder the other races don't want to change? Of course, if most pvp ships had shield tanks we would have to listen to more Matari whines. That would be bad, but thats a helluva lot better than the "OMG don't nerf my uberraven!!" threads we had to deal with before. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
DrEiak
AmarrIONSTAR Vox Imperium
Posted - 2006.09.23 23:47:00 -
[2342 ]
Just a quick spam post to show off my new sig:
Auryn Darkblade
Caldari4th Cohort
Posted - 2006.09.24 02:46:00 -
[2343 ]
Originally by: Rigo Kajjar Well personally ... I got my "enlightenment" a few months back. Since then, I just stopped caring about lasers and started reskilling ... Dumping skill points hurts, but ...What exactly was done in the 4 months since this thread was started? Why do you think this will change in the next 4 months? From the time this thread was started to now, you can already have another large T2 spec, plus BS-5 of a different faction. I just wanted to say: 4 MONTHS! Holy cow! 4 months and no response / reply anything from CCP. Wow...just... Wow __________________________________________________ [17:31:19] dnkuanggong2 > i m china i love evebus i on love t4r4
Vance Black
CaldariORIGIN SYSTEMS Knights Of the Southerncross
Posted - 2006.09.24 05:32:00 -
[2344 ]
Dual LAR 2 actually, I have maxed cap and gunnery (almost, bar pulse spec 4) cap hovers constant at about 40 - 50% with guns blazing, conflag hits up to 15km optimal, which is fine, but with T2 ammo it goes out to 42km, which is mad for a closeish range gun. --------------------------------- Your clone is mine
Miri Tirzan
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.09.24 21:03:00 -
[2345 ]
Actually I like the Navy Apoc for missions... with about 3 billion in fittings I can tank near 1000 DPS. I would not use it for PvP but for PvE it is a killer. It does take a while to kill things but it is not at any risk so I dont care. Oh, and T2 Drones are a must. But I would like to see the EM and Thermal damaged switched. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Perry
AmarrThe X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.24 21:10:00 -
[2346 ]
So it take the Faction version of an amarr ship to do the job of a standard caldari ship. Good balance, lock topic, all cleared. Not.
Cmdr Sy
EUROPEANS
Posted - 2006.09.25 00:08:00 -
[2347 ]
I think actions speak louder than words. From character creation (June 04) onwards, I have specialised in Amarr tech and used it in both PVE and PVP. Now I am retraining to Gallente tech. - I sold all my Amarr HACs today. - My next Mallers will have autocannons fitted. - After flying the Malediction in PVP for nearly two years, I have switched half my interceptors to the Taranis. - In spite of my respect for the Arbitrator, my cruisers will be mostly Thorax, Vexor and Celestis. - BC 5 was the best skillpoint investment I ever made, and it will be applied to the Brutix. - What a double-edged sword ECM has turned out to be. I have two million SPs in it, and now I am so glad at least drones are immune. - I bet after the expansion, the Megathron will still own, and the new tier 2 Gallente BC will be some crazy Brutix/Vexor offspring. Pulse lasers are basically meh with the plate boost and passive tanking skills. When you see 400mm plates on Crows, you know how events have gone. You know what Amarr have, that is without parallel? The Sigil. The reasons are simple and ironic - the plate boost and passive hardening skills should have given the Amarr a powerful new way of armour tanking, but everyone else can do it, and pulse lasers cannot compete with plates and dual adaptive nanos with skill, so long as base armour resistance remains 60-70% for everyone. You can't fight that, especially with crap drone bays and not enough mids for effective ECM. I am not whining, I am adapting, and that basically means replacing half my kit. This is not something you do after over 2 years just because you got a little frustrated - I can see numerous ways across all ship classes, in which the Gallente, Caldari, and to a lesser extent Minmatar, do it better. The powers that be may draw suitable conclusions about the state of Amarr in relation to the technology of other races.
Sir Bart
Posted - 2006.09.25 00:48:00 -
[2348 ]
The root cause of this is that everyone is armor tanking now (even ravens) since midslots are needed to win the ECM battle. What needs to happen is ECM can be defended against, therefor everyone's pvp won't be a mix of armor tank/ECM and we will see some sheild tankers out there... when that happens Amar are not a bad race, sure they are not great at beating up on an armor tank but a tempest is quite weak on a shield tank. That just doesn't bother many tempest pilots since they haven't seen a shield tank since 2005. SB
Dahak2150
Posted - 2006.09.25 02:01:00 -
[2349 ]
This thread is almost as old as my character! ---------- My sig is boring.
Uglyone
Hunter Killers
Posted - 2006.09.25 14:29:00 -
[2350 ]
Originally by: Sir Bart The root cause of this is that everyone is armor tanking now (even ravens) since midslots are needed to win the ECM battle. What needs to happen is ECM can be defended against, therefor everyone's pvp won't be a mix of armor tank/ECM and we will see some sheild tankers out there... when that happens Amar are not a bad race, sure they are not great at beating up on an armor tank but a tempest is quite weak on a shield tank. That just doesn't bother many tempest pilots since they haven't seen a shield tank since 2005. SB ECM is a part of the problem but not the whole problem. with the boost of ECCM that was solved to a certain degree if you use those modules that is.
Chai MeiLian
Posted - 2006.09.26 01:40:00 -
[2351 ]
Are the dev's even looking into this thread? Are we wasting precious server space posting into the forums? Server resources that could be used to aid the stability of TQ? Has any threads like this ever been "answered"? What's the senior's experience on this? It seems that Amarr sucks, but do they suck THAT bad? If yes, why aren't the dev's doing anything about it? Will it get fixed in Kali? I'd like to wtfpwn Domi's.
Richard Masterson
Occassus Republica Process of Elimination
Posted - 2006.09.26 05:35:00 -
[2352 ]
I fly almost exclusively Minmatar, with the exception of a Crusader. The reason is simple: Capacitor and speed. The oversized (compared to most other ships, especially Minmatar) capacitor allows me to fit a MWD and still have a decent sized capacitor without a cap battery or booster. Onto the guns: They don't do a hell of alot of damage. In fact, I plan it so that my biggest contribution is the tackle and not the damage. If I leave the guns off I can orbit with the MWD and 20km scrambler on for an extended period. I think it's a matter of finding the right ship for the right job. That being said, I agree that Amarr damage is weak (Dual Light Beam IIs suck, and just TRY fitting medium beams. . .), and most ships' lack of midslots gimp them severely in PvP. In addition, I love that fact that my ammunition takes up a fraction of my cargo hold at the beginning and end of an operation, and that despite this, Amarr cargoholds are still larger than average. Summary: Amarr need improvement, but hopefully not at the expense of stuiff they already do well.
The ArchWarder
Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.09.26 10:41:00 -
[2353 ]
Edited by: The ArchWarder on 26/09/2006 10:45:21 Edited by: The ArchWarder on 26/09/2006 10:45:05 One think that needs to be addressed is our range on our short range wepons. Amarr is the only race in the game where its BSs cant hit another BS well at point blank, basicaly anything that is moving under 7k is un touchable. Keeping range is imposable due to amarr being the most cap dependant race and mwd = cap killer, not to mention the stupid tracking penalty to the t2 ammo. to give an idea of how lame laser boats are, i can turn my corp m8t absolution, 200m worth of command ship into nothing more than a nice looking asteroid, unable to shoot, rep, ANYTHING in my 8m worth of arbitrator with basic mods. Amarr is also the only race that cant do any dammage what so ever when it has no cap, and gal use drones and boats like the mega usually fit a booster and a full tackle setup. Ships like the geddon and the zealot used to have a purpose in the game because of the non penalty of HS. they couldnt tank at all so anything could kill them, but they could atleast do dammage. Now with the Nos nerf on the horizion,the pilgrim / curse, the only class of ship that amarr are the best at is now also at risk of becoming obsolete. So assuming the nos nerf hits the curse + pilgrim hard. Is there ANY reason at all to fly Amarr anymore? why waste SP when the other 3 races perform so much better?
Garia666
Amarradeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.09.26 11:02:00 -
[2354 ]
Well thats the problem I have chosen to be amarr. and specialized in to amarr ships and modules. It takes a way to long of a time to change to a different race..
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.26 11:05:00 -
[2355 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 26/09/2006 11:06:19 Originally by: Richard Masterson The oversized (compared to most other ships, especially Minmatar) capacitor allows me to fit a MWD and still have a decent sized capacitor without a cap battery or booster. The problem here is that the rechargetime is also higher, so you only have more initial cap, but the same regeneration rate. For example, Claw: 225 cap, 168.75 sec recharge -> 1.33 cap/sec Crusader: 300 cap, 225 sec recharge -> 1.33 cap/sec So, after MWD penalitiy and skills the crusader has 70 more base cap. Which is spent after 20 seconds firing 4 DLBII. The higher base cap of amarr ships is basically a "cargohold" for their "ammo". From the caprecharge (aka sustained cap) they are not better than other ships. The only exeption here are the HACs.
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.09.27 00:11:00 -
[2356 ]
well i thought of a good way to put it today. the devs have always noticed other races problem threads because the problem is like a gold brick, u know its there and its worth something. for amarr its a little trickier, some people dont even know we have a problem, some do, some dont care etc..... anyway we ourselves have a hard time putting the finger on what is exactly wrong, so why would a dev respond. amarrs problem is like a feild full of gold nuggets, unless youve seen the sun hitting the feild at the right time u probobly wouldnt even know the problems are there, but when u see the sun hit them ur freakin blinded, our feild of gold nuggets might not be one big brick thats easy to take down and sell, lot more work in picking them up making sure u have everything and trying to figure out what its worth. figured id bump and share my most recent thoughts atleast on the forums as i havnt played much since i really realized how bad amarr is
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.09.27 00:55:00 -
[2357 ]
whats with this Nos nerf? is it offical or just rumors? The Master Of Chaos
Aegirhawk
Posted - 2006.09.27 04:15:00 -
[2358 ]
Edited by: Aegirhawk on 27/09/2006 04:15:40 I agree amarr need loving period end of statement. a 5% bonus to weapon damage and ROF and give all amarr ships a passive 50% bonus to weapon energy use. And a short range Tachyon Pulse laser would be nice. just my 2 cents but It won't ever happen. because amarr have to have the cap bouns to lasers else... Cap=crap.
xeom
Veto.
Posted - 2006.09.27 04:54:00 -
[2359 ]
They should boost minmatar tbh. Wait is this the wrong thread?--- CCP how about the pith X & A mods? "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
Kirov VIII
Posted - 2006.09.27 16:26:00 -
[2360 ]
Why you make NOTHING CCP ???? Ship amarr have projo or hybrid on ship and you don't ask somes questions ??? It's normal which a amarr ship haven't amarr turret ? Why the amarr turret are very very too bad than a projectile turret ??? Compare mega pulse T2 and 800mm t2 ... ALL are better on 800mm !!! Rof, tracking, consumption of capa, cpu/pw take, damage, ... YOu can see too the price of all amarr turret. Price is very very low ... Why ? It's because gun are UNUSABLE !!! Stop to change code for create a code too bad than RMR with a lot of bugs add and balance/correct the current content for ALL players can play not only other race than amarr !!! A titan amarr now with a em doomsday on a ship with 92.5% base resist, the pilot confuse a frigate T1 with doomsday titan !!!
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.27 16:42:00 -
[2361 ]
Originally by: Kirov VIII Why you make NOTHING CCP ???? Ship amarr have projo or hybrid on ship and you don't ask somes questions ??? It's normal which a amarr ship haven't amarr turret ? Why the amarr turret are very very too bad than a projectile turret ??? Borat!!! Youre my hero!!11
Blitzkrieg
The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.27 17:06:00 -
[2362 ]
Originally by: Perry So it take the Faction version of an amarr ship to do the job of a standard caldari ship. Good balance, lock topic, all cleared. Not. LOL, priceless!
Kiyirari
Posted - 2006.09.27 18:17:00 -
[2363 ]
i remember 2 years ago that the Amarr where for some time the Flavour of many months and alot of pilots, did train for their BS Omgwftpwned Amarr, how times change Revenge is my god and my guns are her angels
ARMARINE
Posted - 2006.09.27 18:32:00 -
[2364 ]
just wanted to point out that lasers DO/WOULD have enough power to cause an explosione(look at the national ignition facility, NIF for short) theyr attempting to create fusion threw lasers. wiht the size fo the lasers in question and the time taken to develope such weapons it would be possible to cause an explosion. wish i had more time to explain but im at school so i'll explain more later if i can. thanks for reading and have fun playing eve. P.S. i fly ammar and i do have a terribly hard time fitting certin ships
ARMARINE
Posted - 2006.09.27 18:33:00 -
[2365 ]
crap posted wiht the wrong character. lol
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.09.27 18:39:00 -
[2366 ]
Originally by: xeom They should boost minmatar tbh. Wait is this the wrong thread? <attatches slave collar to Xeom> There, there. Get in the box like a good little Matari. Tomorrow, if you do an extra good job polishing the reactor manifold I will even let you come inside to sleep! But only if that manifold gleams . <sighs> It's so hard to find good help these days. Ah well, space em and buy new. Thats what I always say. The depreciation after you take em off the lot is hell on the old wallet though. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.27 18:42:00 -
[2367 ]
Nyxus I love you, in a non homosexual way <3
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.27 18:43:00 -
[2368 ]
Originally by: Kiyirari i remember 2 years ago that the Amarr where for some time the Flavour of many months and alot of pilots, did train for their BS Omgwftpwned Amarr, how times change Yeah back then Amarr were too uber, now we are too sucky
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.27 18:46:00 -
[2369 ]
Originally by: The ArchWarder Now with the Nos nerf on the horizion,the pilgrim / curse, the only class of ship that amarr are the best at is now also at risk of becoming obsolete. Why havent anyone questioned Tuxford competance? I mean, what the HELL is he doing?
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.27 18:46:00 -
[2370 ]
Edited by: Godar Marak on 27/09/2006 18:46:10 edit dp
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.09.27 18:56:00 -
[2371 ]
Pointing and laughing at us poor pathetic Amarr pilots saying to himself "omg what total suckers!" Fear is the mind-killer.
DeadDuck
AmarrDAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.27 19:04:00 -
[2372 ]
Edited by: DeadDuck on 27/09/2006 19:05:09 Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: The ArchWarder Now with the Nos nerf on the horizion,the pilgrim / curse, the only class of ship that amarr are the best at is now also at risk of becoming obsolete. Why havent anyone questioned Tuxford competance? I mean, what the HELL is he doing? Just a question ... with the nerf on NOS I can assume that ALL the Amarr ships except the Pilgrim and the Curse will benefict from that ... arent this good news ?
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.27 19:10:00 -
[2373 ]
And it also depends what kind of nerf it will be. If it makes nosses effected by sig radius it will actually *benefit* the amarr recons.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.09.27 20:44:00 -
[2374 ]
Originally by: DeadDuck Edited by: DeadDuck on 27/09/2006 19:05:09 Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: The ArchWarder Now with the Nos nerf on the horizion,the pilgrim / curse, the only class of ship that amarr are the best at is now also at risk of becoming obsolete. Why havent anyone questioned Tuxford competance? I mean, what the HELL is he doing? Just a question ... with the nerf on NOS I can assume that ALL the Amarr ships except the Pilgrim and the Curse will benefict from that ... arent this good news ? you are propably assuming to much. the pilgrim/curse/arbitrator is the best line of amarr ships and the only ships that tuxford havent broken yet. if it is even remotely possible to break those ships he most certainly will manage to do it because it is the tuxford way to break amarr ships. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Nir
Posted - 2006.09.27 20:53:00 -
[2375 ]
Originally by: Aramendel And it also depends what kind of nerf it will be.I doubt it will ever be signature radius based because a lot of people in EVE fly Battleships and they are all of the school of thought that Battleships should remain "solo pwn mobiles" like they've always been.
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.09.27 21:34:00 -
[2376 ]
Originally by: Nir Originally by: Aramendel And it also depends what kind of nerf it will be.I doubt it will ever be signature radius based because a lot of people in EVE fly Battleships and they are all of the school of thought that Battleships should remain "solo pwn mobiles" like they've always been. Same could be said about people that fly frigs/inties and dont wanna get hurt by nos, because 3 of those little ships should solo pwn bs easily. In the middle there is balance and thats what most people strife for: good balanced pvp, thats why (i hope) this thread exists. Not to be a rant about making a race, weapontype or shipclass teh uber. _________________________________________________
Byzan Zwyth
Posted - 2006.09.27 21:36:00 -
[2377 ]
I Guess I should consider myself lucky I've not invested too far into amarr ship training. Frigate 4, cruiser 4, battleship 3 I've given up, in 2 months time I'll be flying a temp ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow and look cool... Gallente because they are effective
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.09.27 21:40:00 -
[2378 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 27/09/2006 21:41:41 Originally by: Byzan Zwyth I Guess I should consider myself lucky I've not invested too far into amarr ship training. Frigate 4, cruiser 4, battleship 3 I've given up, in 2 months time I'll be flying a temp LOL Have fun with that LOL, once you get into npcing you will fall FLAT on your face..only thing that can do npcing for a bit typhoon and needs ****loads of skills Insane ammo usage or very low damageoutput (dps) and bad tracking, also a not so great tank. Not enough PG on typhoon and tempest cant really tank that well...(not like domi or offcourse #1 raven) If your going to pvp...Well very good job, people training into mini earns respect, stabber f t w _________________________________________________
Cloue
GallenteThe Scope
Posted - 2006.09.27 21:45:00 -
[2379 ]
hmm can we make 100pages
Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
Posted - 2006.09.27 22:17:00 -
[2380 ]
I think it's safe to say that if we reach 80 pages with no repsonse, getting to 100 won't make much difference :( My advice is to bite the bullet - stick all your amarr training in the cupboard until we get a new "balance" dev and go train for another race........
Wodin Drukvik
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.09.27 22:24:00 -
[2381 ]
Originally by: ****c I think it's safe to say that if we reach 80 pages with no repsonse, getting to 100 won't make much difference :( My advice is to bite the bullet - stick all your amarr training in the cupboard until we get a new "balance" dev and go train for another race........ For what it's worth, you can do a lot to improve your character without training racial skills. If you're younger character like myself there are literally months of support skills that will be valuable training time spent regardless of which race you finally choose. So many skills that need to be V'd, so little time to V them. If you're really frustrated, like I was, training up another race's t1 stuff is a significant but worthwhile SP investment. You get a breath of fresh air, you get to learn to fly new ships, and it's a reasonable way to breathe life into the game. There's a decent amount of cross-pollination in useful skills between Gallente and some of the better Minmatar ships, so there are a fair number of options if you choose to take this route. Obviously if you're serious about things you'll need T2 weaponry and ship skills, but those are further down the road.
Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
Posted - 2006.09.27 23:03:00 -
[2382 ]
Originally by: Wodin Drukvik Originally by: ****c I think it's safe to say that if we reach 80 pages with no repsonse, getting to 100 won't make much difference :( My advice is to bite the bullet - stick all your amarr training in the cupboard until we get a new "balance" dev and go train for another race........ For what it's worth, you can do a lot to improve your character without training racial skills. If you're younger character like myself there are literally months of support skills that will be valuable training time spent regardless of which race you finally choose. So many skills that need to be V'd, so little time to V them. If you're really frustrated, like I was, training up another race's t1 stuff is a significant but worthwhile SP investment. You get a breath of fresh air, you get to learn to fly new ships, and it's a reasonable way to breathe life into the game. There's a decent amount of cross-pollination in useful skills between Gallente and some of the better Minmatar ships, so there are a fair number of options if you choose to take this route. Obviously if you're serious about things you'll need T2 weaponry and ship skills, but those are further down the road. I agree with what you are saying - but I think you misunderstood my post a little - or, more likely, I wasn't very clear I'm not suggesting getting rid of your character - as you say the support skills are always useful, I am saying that training specific amarr skills doesn't bring the same rewards in terms of what you can do with your ships. I am amarr specialised but spend most of my time flying something else - usually with half the skills and twice the results
Brandy Wong
Posted - 2006.09.28 04:18:00 -
[2383 ]
Bleh. I bet my bottom dollar Tux reads this but just choosed to ignore it. Now there's a thread saying Amarr is overpowered just because there's rumours that Amarr got the first Titan out. Getting a little agitated with my money as there's lots of stability and downtime issues as well as unbalanced race. Maybe Tux plays Caldari too, who knows. I say give the shine back to Amarr!!
General Tso's
Amarr
Posted - 2006.09.28 06:34:00 -
[2384 ]
We are a dying race my brothers, and sisters. We were the first to emerge in this universe, and we will be the first to leave it. When factional warfare comes in, the Amarr will not stand a chance. We will die with our lasers tickling our enemies. It will be an honorable death. ! -------- They say the universe is perfect If you try to change it, you'll only ruin it If you try to hold onto it, it will only slip away
Aurora Tagan
Havoc Inc
Posted - 2006.09.28 08:03:00 -
[2385 ]
It will be a good death
Raven LeSage
Gallente
Posted - 2006.09.28 10:54:00 -
[2386 ]
Die if you want but I will adapt. Ohhhh - I have a pretty ship now.
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.28 19:57:00 -
[2387 ]
Originally by: Aurora Tagan Edited by: Aurora Tagan on 28/09/2006 12:03:22 It will be a good death For whom exactly?
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.28 19:59:00 -
[2388 ]
Originally by: madaluap Same could be said about people that fly frigs/inties and dont wanna get hurt by nos, because 3 of those little ships should solo pwn bs easily. Eh what? Please elaborate.
Aurora Tagan
Amarr
Posted - 2006.09.28 22:42:00 -
[2389 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Aurora Tagan Edited by: Aurora Tagan on 28/09/2006 12:03:22 It will be a good death For whom exactly? I have absolutly no ideas tbh, i was watching 'The last samurai' whilst borwsing this thread and figured it would fit in at the time
Amanda Zeherah
AmarrGun Metal Priests
Posted - 2006.09.29 02:55:00 -
[2390 ]
Personally, I believe that the devs have already taken a look at the current Amarr situation and the upcoming Kali1 patch will try to 'fix' it. Ok Im an optimist and I foresee: - Rigs... we were told from the blogs it will be primarily DEFENSIVE... so I suppose Amarr ships being the 'King' of tank will be favoured... - ECM nerf... will hopefully make Amarr ship less crappy at PvP and shield tanker will find it more favourable to actually shield tank... since permajam suxz... - NOS nerf... hopefully will force people to use a mid-slot to fit a capacitor battery... but I am worried.. wont this worsen Amarr ships due to limited Mid slots??? And inevitably nerf the few Amarr PvP ships left out there (Curse/Pilgrim)??? Well there are other issues affecting Amarr like: - Huge PG requirement for Beam weapons - 3 x EANM2 (PASSIVE) being as good/better as 3 racial hardners (ACTIVE) - Ship 'bonuses' being out-dated/uncompetitive - etc To those Amarr specialist out there... HOLD ON!!!
Soren Eisarson
Posted - 2006.09.29 03:02:00 -
[2391 ]
<begin moral boost> C'mon Amarrian people, I know that you can make 100 pages!! Keep those whines coming, if we get the same people to post over and over again about the same old stuff, we won't have to think of anything new to say, so getting to page 100 won't be any problem at all!!! Remember, speculation rants are easily made to run for paragraphs, and the more baseless facts used the better. I know you people have it it in you to make 100 pages, no sweat <end moral boost>
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.29 14:56:00 -
[2392 ]
The most dangerous NPC in this game are not Angels, but in fact are EoM's. If you have ever fought them - then you know exactly what I mean! Why are they Dangerous? Simple Other than the smart Apoc/Geddon Skin that the EoM's have, they 1. They Shield tank 2. They use rails and torps. I mean - If a pirate faction such as EoM can bring in a ship that outclasses Amarr's current offering, then something is seriously wrong ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.09.29 17:38:00 -
[2393 ]
I really wish idiots would stop trolling this thread.
DanMck
AmarrRionnag Alba Ratel Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.29 17:57:00 -
[2394 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak I really wish idiots would stop trolling this thread. agreed and they probably are typing it while they have eve minimzed with the EMP ammo in the cargo hold gives us more damage type options and please make our set up less predictable cheers
Weirda
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.29 18:00:00 -
[2395 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak I really wish idiots would stop trolling this thread. IRONY! __ WeirdaJoin QOTSA Now Stealth Bomber Tweaks
Vexoth
Two Guys Mining
Posted - 2006.09.29 18:13:00 -
[2396 ]
All it would take would be a few minutes from a developer to post here saying: "Ok we heard you, and so we are going to make a few changes that will improve amarr where/if needed, now stfu with your crying." And then this thread could die.
Raven LeSage
Gallente
Posted - 2006.09.29 21:50:00 -
[2397 ]
Originally by: Vexoth All it would take would be a few minutes from a developer to post here saying: "Ok we heard you, and so we are going to make a few changes that will improve amarr where/if needed, now stfu with your crying." And then this thread could die. But dont you know? In space no one can hear dev scream at us that they heard us. Ohhhh - I have a pretty ship now.
Kaylana Syi
MinmatarThe Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.09.29 22:08:00 -
[2398 ]
Originally by: Vexoth All it would take would be a few minutes from a developer to post here saying: "Ok we heard you, and so we are going to make a few changes that will improve amarr where/if needed, now stfu with your crying." And then this thread could die. What would they have to laugh at on their lunch breaks then?Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Angus McLean
GallenteDivinity Trials
Posted - 2006.09.29 22:20:00 -
[2399 ]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Vexoth All it would take would be a few minutes from a developer to post here saying: "Ok we heard you, and so we are going to make a few changes that will improve amarr where/if needed, now stfu with your crying." And then this thread could die. What would they have to laugh at on their lunch breaks then? You try flying Amarr ships in PvP, Minmatar scum. Quote: Basically we've established, EVE physics > Amarr
Weirda
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.09.29 22:42:00 -
[2400 ]
Originally by: Angus McLean Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Vexoth All it would take would be a few minutes from a developer to post here saying: "Ok we heard you, and so we are going to make a few changes that will improve amarr where/if needed, now stfu with your crying." And then this thread could die. What would they have to laugh at on their lunch breaks then? You try flying Amarr ships in PvP, Minmatar scum. well - know what kay will say, so will skip it. Weirda been specialized in amarr and minmatar since beginning... and you know what... when had much less skillpoints they were so far superior to the minmatar that it was funny. still fly them lots - but don't tell anyone __ WeirdaJoin QOTSA Now Stealth Bomber Tweaks
korrey
Level Five
Posted - 2006.09.29 22:46:00 -
[2401 ]
Well there are a few of us who have mains that know what Amarr 'were' like. Amarr were overpowered but to get 'balanced' they actually got over-nerfed.
Complacency's Bane
Posted - 2006.09.29 23:03:00 -
[2402 ]
Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 29/09/2006 23:05:02 Battleship lasers are fine, the only problem with amarr there is how good EW is and how few midslots amarr battleships have. Cruiser lasers are more iffy, mainly due to relatively high fitting requirements. Frigate lasers are actually quite underpowered - medium pulse with high-damage ammo, for example, has less range, damage, and tracking, while being harder to fit and using more cap, then light ions with null and comparable ship bonuses.
Devoras2
AmarrConfederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.09.30 02:17:00 -
[2403 ]
O..M..F..G Is this thread STILL going on? Dev And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Siro
Eye of God Axiom Empire
Posted - 2006.09.30 08:23:00 -
[2404 ]
Originally by: Complacency's Bane Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 29/09/2006 23:05:02 Battleship lasers are fine, the only problem with amarr there is how good EW is and how few midslots amarr battleships have. Battleship lasers are not fine when projectiles do as much damage on the same ship for no cap. The only reason to not fit projectiles over lasers (or even hybrids over lasers) is lack of training.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.09.30 08:49:00 -
[2405 ]
Originally by: Siro Originally by: Complacency's Bane Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 29/09/2006 23:05:02 Battleship lasers are fine, the only problem with amarr there is how good EW is and how few midslots amarr battleships have. Battleship lasers are not fine when projectiles do as much damage on the same ship for no cap. The only reason to not fit projectiles over lasers (or even hybrids over lasers) is lack of training. exactly. the advantages is that you can fit 8*800mm AC's and 2 dmg mods +tank on a apoc and do as much dmg as the apoc with megapulses+2engineering mods that is needed to fit it +tank and use less cap and get different dmg types that doesnt royally suck on armor while using the bonus cap that doesnt gets expended while shooting to tank better. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.09.30 08:51:00 -
[2406 ]
and you dont need to pack the equivilent of 16k shots to go out and shoot some i dunno what the tech2 crystals cost today since i havent bought any in a long while now but im sure its still pretty expensive. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
rataca
Posted - 2006.09.30 09:36:00 -
[2407 ]
just for giggles, talking to a mad friend of mine who also plays eve said something about the laws of physics breaking down when something travels faster than light (tachyon), and the chaos theory then comes in, i say give amarr a chaos theory weapon tht can do random dmge types to whatever and where, bit like a doomsday device, tht way amarr ships can have a good weapon, but only if they selfdestrcut.
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.09.30 14:54:00 -
[2408 ]
BACK TO THE FRONT PAGE FOR YOU AMARR THREAD!!!
Ithildin
GallenteThe Corporation
Posted - 2006.09.30 15:04:00 -
[2409 ]
Originally by: Martinez BACK TO THE FRONT PAGE FOR YOU AMARR THREAD!!! There are times that I wished the mods took the time to enforce ALL forum rules. Bumping is NOT allowed, you know. It's ONLY allowed in the MARKET forums. This isn't a market forum. -Three years old
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2006.09.30 15:06:00 -
[2410 ]
Then there are times when i am painfully reminded that amarr is in dire need of a boost. It is good that you are not paranoid, yet, they might still be after you.
Ithildin
GallenteThe Corporation
Posted - 2006.09.30 15:08:00 -
[2411 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 Then there are times when i am painfully reminded that amarr is in dire need of a boost. Oh, posting with content is ok, but just plain bumping is stupid. Especially in this thred since any content and arguements it might've had is long lost now. Large threds are never read. Also, nothing is in dire need enough to merit breaking rules, no? -Three years old
HEINZ ZERO
Posted - 2006.09.30 20:30:00 -
[2412 ]
Hi Amarr pilots, I have never wrote any post on this topic (but I read them all)!!! I am a great fan to all amarr ships because they are looking awesome!!! I like the (realy cool) looking lasers too... but I am a originally a caldari pilot ---> thats means I am a raven pilot ---> but!!!!: please boost all other races (+ amarr).. because it¦s very boooring to see only "tournament BS" Raven in eve tournament
Complacency's Bane
Posted - 2006.09.30 20:44:00 -
[2413 ]
Originally by: Siro Originally by: Complacency's Bane Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 29/09/2006 23:05:02 Battleship lasers are fine, the only problem with amarr there is how good EW is and how few midslots amarr battleships have. Battleship lasers are not fine when projectiles do as much damage on the same ship for no cap. The only reason to not fit projectiles over lasers (or even hybrids over lasers) is lack of training. Youre going to get the same damage from projectiles on an arma as you will from lasers? I'm very interested in your 1300 DpS projectile arma setup. Oh, right - this is one of those 'not true at all' kind of lies which you make up to support your incorrect point. Got it.
Siakel
Posted - 2006.09.30 21:54:00 -
[2414 ]
Originally by: Complacency's Bane Youre going to get the same damage from projectiles on an arma as you will from lasers? I'm very interested in your 1300 DpS projectile arma setup. I'm very interested in your 1300 DPS Laser Armageddon setup.
Raven LeSage
Gallente
Posted - 2006.09.30 22:18:00 -
[2415 ]
Originally by: Complacency's Bane Originally by: Siro Originally by: Complacency's Bane Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 29/09/2006 23:05:02 Battleship lasers are fine, the only problem with amarr there is how good EW is and how few midslots amarr battleships have. Battleship lasers are not fine when projectiles do as much damage on the same ship for no cap. The only reason to not fit projectiles over lasers (or even hybrids over lasers) is lack of training. Youre going to get the same damage from projectiles on an arma as you will from lasers? I'm very interested in your 1300 DpS projectile arma setup. Oh, right - this is one of those 'not true at all' kind of lies which you make up to support your incorrect point. Got it. Perhaps I am wrong but I think he meant that you get the same DPS from projectiles as you get from lasers without the cap loss BUT ONLY if you use a ship that doesnt have a damage or range bonus. If a ship has +5% to laser bonus per lvl of course it will do more damage with lasers then with projectiles. However I do wonder one small detail. If a ship has no bonuse to energy turrets (range or damage)wouldn't projectiles or even hybrids do more damage then lasers? At my skill lvl I could only try a comparison with a T1 frigate (punisher). Ohhhh - I have a pretty ship now.
Siakel
Posted - 2006.09.30 22:22:00 -
[2416 ]
Originally by: Raven LeSage Perhaps I am wrong but I think he meant that you get the same DPS from projectiles as you get from lasers without the cap loss BUT ONLY if you use a ship that doesnt have a damage or range bonus. If a ship has +5% to laser bonus per lvl of course it will do more damage with lasers then with projectiles. However I do wonder one small detail. If a ship has no bonuse to energy turrets (range or damage)wouldn't projectiles or even hybrids do more damage then lasers? At my skill lvl I could only try a comparison with a T1 frigate (punisher). Yeah, that's what they are saying. And the DPS using Projectiles on an Amarr ship with no Laser damage bonus isn't as good as Laser DPS, but the damage types are far better, the fitting requirements are far lower, and they use no capacitor, so it's still a very good choice.
Complacency's Bane
Posted - 2006.09.30 22:25:00 -
[2417 ]
Originally by: Raven LeSage Perhaps I am wrong but I think he meant that you get the same DPS from projectiles as you get from lasers without the cap loss BUT ONLY if you use a ship that doesnt have a damage or range bonus. If a ship has +5% to laser bonus per lvl of course it will do more damage with lasers then with projectiles. However I do wonder one small detail. If a ship has no bonuse to energy turrets (range or damage)wouldn't projectiles or even hybrids do more damage then lasers? At my skill lvl I could only try a comparison with a T1 frigate (punisher). Lasers get progressively worse as you go down in ship size. Large lasers are fine, medium lasers are sort of broken, and small lasers are loltastic. Theyre right that on ships with no laser damage bonuses that other weapons systems are viable (or in cases better). The problem is that on ships with a damage bonus, lasers are lethal - increasing laser damage to help non-bonus ships brings back the gankageddon syndrome. Originally by: Siakel Originally by: Complacency's Bane Youre going to get the same damage from projectiles on an arma as you will from lasers? I'm very interested in your 1300 DpS projectile arma setup. I'm very interested in your 1300 DPS Laser Armageddon setup. Megapulse, conflag, damage mods, and drones. Go do the math.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.01 01:07:00 -
[2418 ]
Originally by: Complacency's Bane Originally by: Siro Originally by: Complacency's Bane Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 29/09/2006 23:05:02 Battleship lasers are fine, the only problem with amarr there is how good EW is and how few midslots amarr battleships have. Battleship lasers are not fine when projectiles do as much damage on the same ship for no cap. The only reason to not fit projectiles over lasers (or even hybrids over lasers) is lack of training. Youre going to get the same damage from projectiles on an arma as you will from lasers? I'm very interested in your 1300 DpS projectile arma setup. Oh, right - this is one of those 'not true at all' kind of lies which you make up to support your incorrect point. Got it. if yoiu read anything of this thread you would know that the armageddon isnt the only amarr BS, infact the armageddon and the arbitrator is the only tech1 ships that are decent. try setting up a apoc with the 8 AC's and 2dmg mods and you will see. and you can tank better then also. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.01 01:20:00 -
[2419 ]
boost amarr! and please make them easier to fit ^^
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.01 01:35:00 -
[2420 ]
I have been thinking (they repealed the law against that IIRC) and I guess I should put my Amarr ***** here. Ok, first of all, Tachyon Beam Lasers. I like my Tachyons, I don't mind having to gimp my setup to fit them, but 2 RCUIIs? I think a slight decrease in PG requirement would be appropriate so the extra lowslot normally stuffed with the second RCUII can be put to good use. Second, Megapulses. Yes, they BBQ pretty well, but a blasterthron or ACpest with a clue will turn you to cheese before you really knew what hit you. The Megapulse does less damage than the blasterthron, but you can't even really fit a half-decent Armor tank to compensate near sufficiently. Ideally, a Pulsegeddon works great at ~25km or so, since it outdamage the Blasterthron and ACpest by far at that sort of range, but there is basically no way to hold that sort of distance without a tackling friend. The Cap draw is really high too, so you can't use your own MWD and sustain combat with a Blasterthron or ACpest because as soon as your cap goes, you stop and have no tank at all, and the Pest or Thron will still have enough cap to finish you off. Decrease the Cap draw on the megapulses and decrease the PG requirements on Megapulses please. The fact that an 8x Megapulses and a tank is completely unsustainable (and un*****ble with a Cap Booster) even on an Apoc is really messed up. If you want the Amarr to be good at Armor tanking, than make their extra bonus lowslots be useful for tanking as opposed to necessarily being shoved full of PDUs, RCUs, and Cap Power relays. The Amarr in my opinion should with the right skills be able to fit and operate decently a full rack of Megapulses and a tank with 2x EANMIIs, Active hardeners, a Large repper II(or two), and a 1600mm plate without too much trouble. It should be such that while the Megapulse II may not compare equally for damage on an Apoc against a ACpest or Blasterthron, the tanking should be able to compensate. The geddon obviously is more Damage oriented and would keep more its current role, but the ability to throw a 1600mm or 2 (maybe a repper, or perhaps fit a cap booster in the meds?)in the lows to make a semi-passive tank and the cap use such that it could fire sustainably with an AB running(and perhaps at least handle decently capwise with a MWD) would be much appreciated. It might make a Med-range engagement possible too. Make the Full-gank tankless geddon run on Megabeams at ~50km or so, or further gimped for tachyon sniping instead of a "please don't shoot me MR. Battleship" 25km sitting duck of a BBQ-ing Machine. T1 Cruisers face similar problems of the battleships, namely with the weapons doing crap damage relative to Hybrids and Projectiles, Having a minimum range on Heavy Pulses, and despite the crap damage and little range differential a tank being impossible to fit and sustain given the absurd cap drain. The Heavy Beam Laser also is the absolutely most useless module in t1 cruiser combat since it plain sucks fitting wise, Cap use wise, and damage wise - which brings me to Frigates. The Amarr t1 frigate lineup is pretty acceptable - barring the 100% useless excuse for a missile ship that is supposed to be our damage frigate. Frankly, when Amarr touch missiles the role should be armor tanking missile boat ideal for med range rapage. Some Laser support. That's not possible for a few reasons: Sacrelidge has no missile bonus. Has too few Lowslots to fit a decent tank. Vengeance has no missile bonus (ok, w/e) and more importantly needs a second launcher slot.The Vengeance should be able to gimp a tank and fit 2x Standard launcher/2x Med beam Laser II but even if it had the second missile slot, the Medium Beam Laser II cannot be fitted at all decently at all on anything(Ha, Ha, 3x medium beam II 1x standard 2 setup.. sux2bu useful Vengeance setup) T1 Missile frigate blows in every way. Basically Ammar should be the lords of Medium Range combat. (CTD) Fear is the mind-killer.
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.01 02:32:00 -
[2421 ]
Edited by: Ituralde on 01/10/2006 02:32:42 Medium range combat does not exist because there really is no viable setup. For med range to be worthwhile, it needs to be able to: -> Tank comparable (i.e. same ship size class) long range damage without breaking a sweat such that with an AB it can expect to close a distance and begin to shoot back at extreme ranges for its weaponry. -> Tank survibably against short-range damage such that it has a chance when shelling a hostile vessel starting at med range and closing to short, else have the Cap to attempt to try to maintain range (though be sure not to have the speed such that catching it is impossible, the idea for amarr should be armored pwnage, not weasily dancing outside of range. Maybe give the matari a role there, they can use a bit of a boost too.) -> Significantly outdamage long range weapons, and have weapons designed for it, I.E. for battleship class would have a min range of ~10-15km (short range would have optimal of 20)and a max range of 100 Km(max optimal~80 or so?)(up to 125 or so with t2) and be able to outclass by far the damage of short range weapons with long range ammo and long range weapons with short range ammo. -> Be able to run an Afterburner, Tank, and Guns with little net cap drain with appropriate skills. -> Have the medslots to support a stasis web and an Afterburner to help slow down the short range WTFpwnmobiles that come to tear you a second *******. So, how? Keep Tachs for the Amarr long range, Boost Heavy Beams for a more viable long range but boost further Focused Medium Beams to be the med-long range cruiser weapon. The Megabeam, Focused Medium Beam, and Dual Light Beam should be the best med range damage of all the races, with Pulses emphasizing the only the shorter end of the medium range. There should be t2 ammo that encourages the following (very basic sketch of an idea): Megabeam med range - 50km optimal, Optimal + falloff to 65km, realtively low Damage increase but should have increased tracking. Should be effective (i.e. able to hit, obviously it should not be a wtfdamage crystal) at relatively short ranges. Other crystal should be the existing Long range crystal. Give it a minor cap use penalty perhaps to balance it out. Megapulse (damage crystal) - 25km optimal, Optimal + falloff to 35km, hard to hit frigs in general (recuced tracking perhaps, increased cap use?)nigh impossible <25km hard to hit then even, Cruisers <20km should be impossible to hit, BS <5 should also take reduced damage Megapulse other crystal should have relatively little to no damage increase based on an already relatively lower camage crystal, but slightly longer range (30 optimal or so) but massively increased tracking. What, don't like the idea of Battleship-sized anti-small ship ammo idea, Mr. Precision Cruise missile/Javelin Torpedo? Amarr also has an annoying weakness of Sensor strength, but that is a somewhat acceptable downside I would say if there is a minor ECM nerf. RPwise, the relatively lower sensor strength is understandable, but the handicap I would say is too high as things are. Thats enough for now really. I guess I will conclude with a sample idea of new ideal ship roles for Amarr: Apocalypse(same bonuses) - tanking/decent damage Midshort/Mid(Read, Megapulse)range boat, 8-slot sniper. The bananna boat also needs a little more agility too, reason under abbadon's description. Armageddon(same bonuses) - Damage Machine with moderate tank, Better sniper than Apoc (much as things are now), most agile of the Amarr BS Abaddon(Lets be honest, the Tier3 Battleships are there to give the Caldari a Rail BS, but lets keep the same bonuses) - Basically should be designed around uber med range megabeamage, make its tank the uber hardest to break, give it a huge base cap such that it can operate well long-term and is easily modified, but make the thing basically next to immobile. It should not be running from anything, it should sit, unload damage and be able to take serious pain. Fear is the mind-killer.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.01 02:41:00 -
[2422 ]
i agree that minmatar should have more agile BS then they have now, maybe 10% more agile and faster amarr should have easier fittings so the lowslot advantage isnt taken up by engineering mods making the lowslot advantage moot. amarr should also get the weapon energy bonus built in on every amarr ship and another bonus be used as second bonus. furthermore to make amarr the tankers why not make them have 5-7,5% more armor per level as bonus instead as second bonus, that would fit better with the amarr way as tankers. and swap EM/Thermal on the crystals Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.01 02:52:00 -
[2423 ]
Zealot is fine. Sacrelidge - Mid range Missile + Beam boat. Emphasis on heavy tanking. Give it a missile bonus, make the beams be secondary/support weapons for the missiles. Vengeance - Bonuses are acceptable, give it a second missile slot so it can run a good 2xStandard/2xMed Beam II setup. Retribution - Its fine. Beautiful even. 1 Medslot is annoying but a bit of a boost to Amarr small weapons (see below) will make it better. Amarr Interceptors - Boost the Dual light beam and Dual light Pulse IIs a bit(Perhaps something along the lines of the T2 crystal suggestions above@battleships?), Taranis does best short range, Crow is best at long, Crusader can move really fast and maintain a really close orbit, I have a great setup but my dual light beams do no damage. It makes me sad that I can't really operate well against cepters without going for a crazy tricksy wannabe-crow malediction setup. Omen should fill the role of a hybrid proposed Geddon/proposed Apoc, Leaning towards the agility/damage side but a moderate tank should also be possible. Maller should fill the role of the proposed Apoc and proposed Abaddon, leaning towards the heavy tanked immobility of the Abaddon. A little love to those Amarr small weapons will help this out a ton. Auguror needs to be scrapped entirely, looks like I took an axe to a refrigerator as it is... I really don't care too much though. Arbitrator is fine. Curse and Pilgrim are fine. The T1 frigates are fine, save that abombination of a missile frigate is UGLY, needs to be redesigned and re-released as a damage-oriented t1 version of the proposed Vengeance. I saw another thread somewhere that had a good idea if I remember correctly. So, yeah, CCP, you have plenty of ideas here to work with. Throw us a bleeding bone here perhaps? This many pages deserves at least some sort of ackgnowledgement, I bet you have read most of this, so a little update as to what is being done, maybe a CCP opinion on the matter would at least give us a clue that our views our being heard. Thanks. Fear is the mind-killer.
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
Posted - 2006.10.01 08:31:00 -
[2424 ]
Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Martinez BACK TO THE FRONT PAGE FOR YOU AMARR THREAD!!! There are times that I wished the mods took the time to enforce ALL forum rules. Bumping is NOT allowed, you know. It's ONLY allowed in the MARKET forums. This isn't a market forum. QFT this thread really needs to be locked down.
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.01 08:43:00 -
[2425 ]
Amarr is supposed to be kings of medium range combat? Then reduce pg for lasers, give ships web and scram range bonus.
Von Munhausen
CaldariAutomated Industries
Posted - 2006.10.01 08:52:00 -
[2426 ]
Originally by: Pesadel0 QFT this thread really needs to be locked down. Agree and i think there is only one way. Lets see a dev blog for amarr. This will kill the tread.
Miri Tirzan
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.01 11:13:00 -
[2427 ]
I agree that if Amarr is the tanking king then up the armor on the ships and let one of the bonuses be either more resistance or more armor. Also think the thermal and EM damage should be switched with Thermal being the main damage and EM secondary. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.01 22:50:00 -
[2428 ]
Originally by: Von Munhausen Originally by: Pesadel0 QFT this thread really needs to be locked down. Agree and i think there is only one way. Lets see a dev blog for amarr. This will kill the tread. propably would. and some kind of "looking into/fixing" statement with some info would definetly close this thread i think. but if it is a statement that "all is fine" it wont die at all. just a bunch of amarr accounts that will be canceled then propably. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.10.02 00:11:00 -
[2429 ]
2459
Lady Tammy
Posted - 2006.10.02 00:12:00 -
[2430 ]
oops, cant count... 2461
Copenhagen
AmarrJuBa Corp
Posted - 2006.10.02 00:58:00 -
[2431 ]
83 pages an still no Dev response?? I think it at least deserves a: "Were looking into it" or "Drop Dead - We dont care" or "We actually wrote the code to fix this, but Oveur got drunk and accidentally hit the delete button"Either give all 4 types to everybody or just give 1 per race
XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.10.02 02:04:00 -
[2432 ]
lmao does anyone read what others put or do they just add thier little thing to it.
Areconus
CaldariCereal Killerz Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.02 02:14:00 -
[2433 ]
I think Amarr is balanced......... Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.02 03:29:00 -
[2434 ]
Edited by: The Armin on 02/10/2006 03:31:37 Stop whining, train Gallente or Caldari. It's obvious that Amarr is gonna suck for a while longer, just look at our new bs EDIT: I'll kill a carebear each day untill we get a crystal with either kinetic or thermal dmg. Gamma and Xray is useless. Make them EM/EXPL and KIN/THERM ktnx Amarr = Solved. ;P *Flamesuit on* And no, I don't listen to spoiled "MY DOMI AND MEGA PWNS ALL" gallente brats.
Areconus
CaldariCereal Killerz Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.02 05:01:00 -
[2435 ]
Originally by: The Armin Edited by: The Armin on 02/10/2006 03:31:37 Stop whining, train Gallente or Caldari. It's obvious that Amarr is gonna suck for a while longer, just look at our new bs EDIT: I'll kill a carebear each day untill we get a crystal with either kinetic or thermal dmg. Gamma and Xray is useless. Make them EM/EXPL and KIN/THERM ktnx Amarr = Solved. ;P *Flamesuit on* And no, I don't listen to spoiled "MY DOMI AND MEGA PWNS ALL" gallente brats. Umm sorry, thats a bad idea. if you actually looked at the races dmg types and resistances then you would see why. Amarr is direclty rivaled against Minmatar. Amarr does mainly EM, and Minmatar mainly shieldtanks. Minmatar does mainly explosive, and Amarr mainly armor tanks Caldari is direclty rivaled against Gallente. Caldari is mainly kinetic Gallente is maily thermal Which is why Caldari has higher thermal resistances, and Gallente has higher kinetic resistances.(Look at HACS, AF's) So, if Amarr were given explosive, then lets give Minmatar EM, Gallente kinetic, and Caldari thermal, and screw up all of the resists as well Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Epsilon 1
Posted - 2006.10.02 05:24:00 -
[2436 ]
83 bloody pages Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.10.02 06:42:00 -
[2437 ]
beer is teh good stuff Less PG usage for medium and small laz ers and ammar will be the pwnhouse again. I mean the first titan was ammarian right _________________________________________________
Lady Loom
Amarr
Posted - 2006.10.02 08:00:00 -
[2438 ]
Originally by: Areconus Umm sorry, thats a bad idea. if you actually looked at the races dmg types and resistances then you would see why. Amarr is direclty rivaled against Minmatar. Amarr does mainly EM, and Minmatar mainly shieldtanks. Minmatar does mainly explosive, and Amarr mainly armor tanks Caldari is direclty rivaled against Gallente. Caldari is mainly kinetic Gallente is maily thermal Which is why Caldari has higher thermal resistances, and Gallente has higher kinetic resistances.(Look at HACS, AF's) So, if Amarr were given explosive, then lets give Minmatar EM, Gallente kinetic, and Caldari thermal, and screw up all of the resists as well clearly someone with a clue here... oh wait You are aware that projectile ammo comes in all flavours, right? Yes it takes 10 seconds to swap, but you CAN swap it for every damage type out there. You are aware that there's 4 different types of missiles which, again, can be swapped out in 10 seconds based on who and what you're fighting, or aren't you? You do realize that drones come in 4 different versions with different damage types again, don't you? Yes it takes drone space but the possibility to deal different types of damage are there so the damage types aren't as hardcoded as you might think (I'm pretty sure this has already been said somewhere on the last 82 pages but chances are you didn't bother to read the whole topic before typing your educated reply) -Minmatar can change the damage types of their guns, they also secondarily use missiles which again can be changed to do each of the 4 damage types -Caldari can change their damage types with missiles -Gallente can change their damage types with drones racial resist bonuses can be made up for with hardeners, on both armor and shields and while hybrids only deal kinetic/thermal damage, they're far more useful in general - their thermal damage is good to take down shields, their kinetic portion is good to eat through armor. Pew pew cannons are limited to EM and thermal, the latter usually in a noticeably smaller ratio. That makes them good against unhardened shields (on the other hand the EM hole is the most obvious one to fill with resists) and not much else, makes them usable against about 2 rat factions and not much else. That makes 3 out of 4 races which can switch at least the damage types of their secondary weapon systems. Well, Amarr don't even really have *a* secondary weapon system (sure some ships have small drone bays but 3-5 thermal drones don't cut it, and neither do the few launcher slots certain ships get) and short of using projectile turrets they're stuck with the two least useful damage types currently in EVE. And now you tell me game balance has to take a backseat to storyline? I don't think so. (which is why the Gallente "waah waah, don't give anyone else good drone boats, we're the drone race after all" crybabies are idiots - how about "waah waah don't give anybody else good armor, as that's an Amarr specialty"? see, didn't work either...) [power corrupts, absolute power is kind of neat]
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.02 09:12:00 -
[2439 ]
The bottom line is that Amarr is ment to be the king of Turrets, and Caldari the king of Missiles. Tier3 Caldari is king of Turrets now, so give Amarr a Missile BS and that at least gives variaty. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.02 10:14:00 -
[2440 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron The bottom line is that Amarr is ment to be the king of Turrets, and Caldari the king of Missiles. Tier3 Caldari is king of Turrets now, so give Amarr a Missile BS and that at least gives variaty. You antichrist
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.02 10:24:00 -
[2441 ]
Originally by: Areconus Caldari is direclty rivaled against Gallente. blabla... Caldari is mainly kinetic Gallente is maily thermal ....blabla. Should Amarr be the only race stuck with having the worst damage type ingame as their main ? Why shouldn't Amarr be allowed to change dmg as the Dominix, Phoon, Raven and others can ? I agree that Megathron and the Pest is stuck with 2 and 3 damage types but they atleast do awesome dmg and their damage type isn't bad. Who said uhm.. look at the resists, thats the way it's gonna stay ? Why should it -.- "Caldari is mainly kinetic Gallente is maily thermal" This is a contradiction. First off all they both share the hybrids so they both do kin/therm. Secound of all, how do you know that Caldari is mainly kin ? Did you do a research of what ppl fit in their siege bays in or what ? I don't get it. "So, if Amarr were given explosive, then lets give Minmatar EM, Gallente kinetic, and Caldari thermal, and screw up all of the resists as well" Caldari already has Therm Torp/Cruises Minmatar already HAS EM. Idiot. EMP L em damage 20 HP +2 other dmg types Gallente Kinetic ? antimatter charge l kinetic damage 28 HP +therm Man, get some facts straight before you post. And don't make yourself look like a fool next time.
Exogene
Posted - 2006.10.02 11:02:00 -
[2442 ]
Edited by: Exogene on 02/10/2006 11:06:22 Besides the fact that Minmatar already has EM damage themselves, they have a basic higher resistance against EM damage aswell, so that Amarr can do extra bad versus Minmatar. (now i am wondering how the heck Amarr even managed to enslave Minmatar with them crappy Amarr ships, go figure, doesn't even fit in the RP side of things) 70% base EM resistance on T1 minmatar armor...ummkaay! And no, Minmatar are not just shield tankers, cough, rupture, cough, tempest, cough, typhoon...And no, Amarr are not the kings of tanking, at least not in their current state... Edit: On the minmatar T2 ships the resistances are even more ridiculous versus Amarr, 75% EM and 60% thermal on shields, 92.5% EM and 67.5% thermal on armor
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.10.02 11:12:00 -
[2443 ]
will be flying a Domi and MegaT soon :) just have to wait for the guns lol The Master Of Chaos
Lady Loom
Though The Darkness Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.02 11:19:00 -
[2444 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron The bottom line is that Amarr is ment to be the king of Turrets, and Caldari the king of Missiles. Tier3 Caldari is king of Turrets now, so give Amarr a Missile BS and that at least gives variaty. to be honest I don't quite understand why the new Amarr BC and BS yet again have to be purely laser-armor based ships, Amarr have enough of them already, they just need to be fixed to be a viable alternative. I trained for Caldari ships early and I love the variety they offer, sure it may not always be nber for certain applications but overall I love to have that choice between railboat, missileboat and ECM-boat. Amarr? Armor/Laser and very few special ships like the Arbi & T2 variants [power corrupts, absolute power is kind of neat]
weedmasta
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.10.02 11:22:00 -
[2445 ]
Edited by: weedmasta on 02/10/2006 11:24:41 Looks like Amarr has learned nothing from their Khanid brothers. or The devs are actually going to do something about lasers
Hellspawn01
AmarrThe Phantom Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.10.02 11:44:00 -
[2446 ]
Originally by: Lord WarATron The bottom line is that Amarr is ment to be the king of Turrets, and Caldari the king of Missiles. Tier3 Caldari is king of Turrets now, so give Amarr a Missile BS and that at least gives variaty. But we cant have an amarrian missile boat (1st sacrilege) so we get a 3rd turret ship.Ship lovers click here
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.02 12:16:00 -
[2447 ]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Lord WarATron The bottom line is that Amarr is ment to be the king of Turrets, and Caldari the king of Missiles. Tier3 Caldari is king of Turrets now, so give Amarr a Missile BS and that at least gives variaty. But we cant have an amarrian missile boat (1st sacrilege) so we get a 3rd turret ship. You have an Amarr Shield tanker Missile boat Its called the Curse - And it is basically a cruiser sized raven! ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Angelic Resolution
The Arcanum
Posted - 2006.10.02 13:09:00 -
[2448 ]
TBH an Amarrian designed missile boat sounds rather botched. Esp. in the BS area considering all of the T1 ships before it are at least 85% turret, some of the ships have an extra high slot but not for missiles so.. it'd feel to odd. Can't wait to see the new BS though, hope it'll be able to dual rep and have 6 tachyons on at once.. *sarcasm*
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.02 14:49:00 -
[2449 ]
Edited by: The Armin on 02/10/2006 14:50:28 Originally by: Angelic Resolution TBH an Amarrian designed missile boat sounds rather botched. Esp. in the BS area considering all of the T1 ships before it are at least 85% turret, some of the ships have an extra high slot but not for missiles so.. it'd feel to odd. Can't wait to see the new BS though, hope it'll be able to dual rep and have 6 tachyons on at once.. *sarcasm* The new BS will suck more than the Apoc tbh 5% resists and 5% dmg You can't keep the guns running with a dual rep tank You can't keep the dual rep tank running with guns on You want to gank something ? Take a Geddon instead, better cap. The new one is prolly better at tanking than the Apoc though, wich makes the Apoc totally utterly useless. //Oh edit: While it tanks better than the Apoc, thats about it =P Also better Alpha in fleet obviously So it's good for something but meh, I'd rather want something else. Not the current bonuses on the latest dev blog abt kali battleships tbh.
Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2006.10.02 15:19:00 -
[2450 ]
All the new amarrian BS needs is a 5th mid and 125m¦ drone space, so you can make a gaint domi with a tanking Bonus from it. Then it will be useful.
Siakel
Posted - 2006.10.02 15:24:00 -
[2451 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 All the new amarrian BS needs is a 5th mid and 125m¦ drone space, so you can make a gaint domi with a tanking Bonus from it. Then it will be useful. Even if they keep the ship as-is, it needs a 125m3 dronebay, the Prelim stats had 75 m3 and that, to be honest, scares me. With a 125m3 dronebay it already gains little enough DPS over an Armageddon to make the Armageddon a better choice for a lot of situations because it can actually keep firing for a while. If the Abaddon has a 75m3 dronebay.. well, I'm not sure if it would even manage to out-DPS the Armageddon, then, and if it does, the stupidly high cap use certainly won't be worth the extra 50 DPS.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.02 15:27:00 -
[2452 ]
Originally by: Andreask14 All the new amarrian BS needs is a 5th mid and 125m¦ drone space, so you can make a gaint domi with a tanking Bonus from it. Then it will be useful. I was reading your post, thinking about the implications........ ......then I saw your sig. It immediately induced a bout of massive projectile vomiting combined with urgent and uncontrollable bowel movements complete with oily discharge. <wipes orifices> Please change it. Or at least put a warning on it. It's just.....wrong on so many levels <shudders>. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.02 15:36:00 -
[2453 ]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/10/2006 15:45:03 All this topics needs is an infinite loop sign cos your all going around and around and around in circles... Originally by: The Armin The new BS will suck more than the Apoc tbh 5% resists and 5% dmg You can't keep the guns running with a dual rep tank You can't keep the dual rep tank running with guns on Going to state the obvious here, are you ready? Don't fit a dual rep tank then... fit an extra plate. Less PG used by plates = bigger guns. Less cap use by plates = more cap for guns. You get a EANM T2 built in, so if it has 8 lows like it should thats effectivly 9 lows to fit either: Rep + 3x Plates + EANM + Damage Control + 2x Heatsinks or Rep + 3x Plates + 2x EANM + Damage Control + Heatsink or 3x Plates + EANM + Damage Control + 3x Heatsinks If you can't run a dual rep then don't fit it. Sure you won't move very much with 2 or 3 plates on but you don't move very well to start with, hence Amarr gets good range on there guns so they don't have to move for to shoot. T2 range crystal on "short" range guns reaching 40km at 600 to 700dps (with 3 damage mods before resists I know waa waa waa) you just have to align and shoot. I do think the Amarr inty's (well all inty's) should have more mids than 1 or 2, they're meant to be tacklers but then I think inty's should have same damage as a T1 frigate and bonus's to cap use of scramblers/webs. /end rant/ Crystals are not the problem, make EANM T2 active like Invuln's, will have less diversity in modules but advantage of EANM over active is reduced. Watch some CVA vids for there small gang setups, they have the right idea being mainly Amarr. EDIT: spelling/english stuff/clarity ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Constantine Arcanum
GallenteIMPERIAL SENATE Pure.
Posted - 2006.10.02 15:51:00 -
[2454 ]
Fix the sacrilege. And all khanid ships for that matter. We don't want shields and missiles. We want lasers and armour.I helped - Cortes What a shiny and lovely place here - Eshtir Well lets make it a party atleast :D -Xorus RAWWWR!11!!1!2 SIG HIJACK!!11!1 I found it first, get orrrfff moiiii laaannnd - Cortes
Siakel
Posted - 2006.10.02 15:56:00 -
[2455 ]
Originally by: Constantine Arcanum Fix the sacrilege. And all khanid ships for that matter. We don't want shields and missiles. We want lasers and armour. Actually, the best suggestion for Khanid ships thus far (IMO) has been Sarmaul's Khanid Mk. II thread, which was suggesting that we turn them into armor tanking missileboats. Shockingly, a large portion of Amarr players don't want lasers and armor, as we already have this in abundance, and the race is seriously lacking in versatility.
Novan Leon
Posted - 2006.10.02 16:17:00 -
[2456 ]
Amarr = armor and lasers Lasers = lacking versatility/different damage types Solution: 1. Either change the existing crystals or create new ones that allow for differing damage types. AND/OR 2. Add a few more ships with some variety such as missle bays, drone bays or electronic warfare bonuses. Problem solved! ----------------------- Hey you! Obey the fist!
Mr Peanut
The New Empire R i s e
Posted - 2006.10.02 16:51:00 -
[2457 ]
Lately I have noticed a huge increase in the number of Amarr whines on the forums. People are finally starting to catch on. I would like to congratulate the Amarr whiners who made this thread, and the many others like it, possible. Keep fighting against dev racism!
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.02 16:54:00 -
[2458 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Going to state the obvious here, are you ready? Going to state the obvious here, you rdy ? You just posted the most common Geddon setup And how are you supposed to run the rep with 8 guns firering and no cap bonus and no cap mods ? You obviously never flied Amarr so go whine in the Deimos thread pls. Oh and my post was in reply to someone suggesting a full rack of guns and a dual rep tank. Reading everyhting ftw and don't take stuff out of context pls. To one point a Cap Booster would keep the guns firering and the reppers repping but not for long I think. Not without NOS/Cap Mods/Laser Cap Bonii
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
Posted - 2006.10.02 17:03:00 -
[2459 ]
Originally by: Lady Loom Edited by: Lady Loom on 02/10/2006 08:09:51 -Minmatar can change the damage types of their guns with T1 ammo, they also secondarily use missiles which again can be changed to do each of the 4 damage types -Caldari can change their damage types with missiles -Gallente can change their damage types with drones racial resist bonuses can be made up for with hardeners, on both armor and shields and while hybrids only deal kinetic/thermal damage, they're far more useful in general - their thermal damage is good to take down shields, their kinetic portion is good to eat through armor. Pew pew cannons are limited to EM and thermal, the latter usually in a noticeably smaller ratio. That makes them good against unhardened shields (on the other hand the EM hole is the most obvious one to fill with resists) and not much else, makes them usable against about 2 rat factions and not much else. That makes 3 out of 4 races which can switch at least the damage types of their secondary weapon systems. Well, Amarr don't even really have *a* secondary weapon system (sure some ships have small drone bays but 3-5 thermal drones don't cut it, and neither do the few launcher slots certain ships get) and short of using projectile turrets they're stuck with the two least useful damage types currently in EVE. The Armageddon and Megathron both have the same ability to change damage types - both have the same sized drone bay, both are limited to two damage types from the turrets. But tbh the whole changing drone damage types is a bit of a red herring given the base damage difference between drone 'flavours' with the damage falling off as Thermal-Kinetic-Explosive-EM. Secondly taking again the Megathron example, the drones account for 22-26% of the total DPS (Typical Ion Blaster II setup), having a bit of extra damage type 'on the side' probably isnÆt going to help much if someone has setup to tank specifically against your damage type (not to mention the aforementioned difference in raw drone DPS which largely renders it moot). At the end of the day the Raven is the only platform capable of truly switching damage types without penalty. ----------- Office Linebacker -
Lady Loom
Though The Darkness Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.02 18:19:00 -
[2460 ]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade The Armageddon and Megathron both have the same ability to change damage types - both have the same sized drone bay, both are limited to two damage types from the turrets. But tbh the whole changing drone damage types is a bit of a red herring given the base damage difference between drone 'flavours' with the damage falling off as Thermal-Kinetic-Explosive-EM. Secondly taking again the Megathron example, the drones account for 22-26% of the total DPS (Typical Ion Blaster II setup), having a bit of extra damage type 'on the side' probably isnÆt going to help much if someone has setup to tank specifically against your damage type (not to mention the aforementioned difference in raw drone DPS which largely renders it moot). At the end of the day the Raven is the only platform capable of truly switching damage types without penalty. I just mentioned drones to the guy who was so anal about keeping single damage types to certain races (I mean except for ship bonuses no one stops me from mouting my "Caldari" rails on an Amarr ship already to do "not-storyline-compatible" damage...) - but while I agree that different drones don't make a big difference I think at the end of the day it doesn't matter whether blasters only do kinetic/thermal damage, as this combination is generally useful except for very specific situations. With EM/thermal it's vice-versa - generally a bad choice except for specific situations and I'd really like to beat up the idiot who not only made racial drones do different damage types, but actually gimped some of them by giving them the - once again - the most useless damage type AND less base damage for a bit more armor? WTF... [power corrupts, absolute power is kind of neat]
Areconus
CaldariCereal Killerz Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.02 20:29:00 -
[2461 ]
Originally by: The Armin Originally by: Areconus Caldari is direclty rivaled against Gallente. blabla... Caldari is mainly kinetic Gallente is maily thermal ....blabla. Should Amarr be the only race stuck with having the worst damage type ingame as their main ? Why shouldn't Amarr be allowed to change dmg as the Dominix, Phoon, Raven and others can ? I agree that Megathron and the Pest is stuck with 2 and 3 damage types but they atleast do awesome dmg and their damage type isn't bad. Who said uhm.. look at the resists, thats the way it's gonna stay ? Why should it -.- "Caldari is mainly kinetic Gallente is maily thermal" This is a contradiction. First off all they both share the hybrids so they both do kin/therm. Secound of all, how do you know that Caldari is mainly kin ? Did you do a research of what ppl fit in their siege bays in or what ? I don't get it. "So, if Amarr were given explosive, then lets give Minmatar EM, Gallente kinetic, and Caldari thermal, and screw up all of the resists as well" Caldari already has Therm Torp/Cruises Minmatar already HAS EM. Idiot. EMP L em damage 20 HP +2 other dmg types Gallente Kinetic ? antimatter charge l kinetic damage 28 HP +therm Man, get some facts straight before you post. And don't make yourself look like a fool next time. Hey pal, if you had actually read my post like an intelligent person then you wouldnt have posted that utterly stupid reply. Quote: "Caldari is mainly kinetic Gallente is maily thermal" This is a contradiction. First off all they both share the hybrids so they both do kin/therm. Secound of all, how do you know that Caldari is mainly kin ? Did you do a research of what ppl fit in their siege bays in or what ? I don't get it. Lets see, in my post I said(look at t2 ships), now if you had done that instead of like a total retard then you would have seen. Now, of course there are some cases where things are interchangeable, such as railguns, blasters etc...and missiles, but in areas that are race specific, Gallente does thermal(hobgoblins, ogres) Quote: Secound of all, how do you know that Caldari is mainly kin ? Once again, if you had looked, you would have seen that Caldari gets kinetic bonuses, such as on the caracal. Quote: Caldari already has Therm Torp/Cruises Minmatar already HAS EM. Idiot. yes, there are some areas where differences appear, because the game is not 100% balanced if you didnt already know that. Minmatar may have a high EM dmg ammo, but have you looked at the other ammo types? Minmatar is mainly explosive And if you still dont believe me, then why dont you just take a look at the rats that live in each races' specific areas? Minmatar= Angels, which have low explosive resist, and do mostly explosive dmg Caldari=Guristas, which have lowest kinetic resist, and do primarily kinetic dmg Gallente-now this is a fine example of where there is not 100% balance and interchangability. Gallente face the Serpentis, who also have the lowest kinetic resist because Gallente use hybrid guns, but on the other hand, Serpentis do mostly thermal dmg. That is unlike other factions where resists and dmg types are the same. Amarr= Sansha, which have lowest EM resist, and again, primarily EM dmg. And there are some other, off to the side factions such as Mordus, and Blood Raiders which are exceptions Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Murukan
MinmatarThe Priory
Posted - 2006.10.02 20:39:00 -
[2462 ]
Originally by: Novan Leon Amarr = armor and lasers Lasers = lacking versatility/different damage types Solution: 1. Either change the existing crystals or create new ones that allow for differing damage types. AND/OR 2. Add a few more ships with some variety such as missle bays, drone bays or electronic warfare bonuses. Problem solved! K nub your first poitn is a big **** no cause that trivializes minmatar ammo. When i can reload my guns in one second and have my ammo take very little cargo space then maybe. And yah i bet every race wants ships that own in every single catagory. Well caldari will finally have that when they get the rokh but that's another topic. You know i want a ship that is great in ewar but all i get is target painters. I want a great drone ship but all i get is a phoon with no drone bonuses. I want a great missle ship but all i get is a breacher with ****ty grid and a lack of missle hardpoints.In rust we trust!!!
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.02 21:27:00 -
[2463 ]
Originally by: Murukan K nub your first poitn is a big **** no cause that trivializes minmatar ammo. When i can reload my guns in one second and have my ammo take very little cargo space then maybe. Actually the reload time is included in the gun stats. For example compare a heavy beam + 50% cap bonus vs a 250mm rail + 25% damage bonus and the rail does 7% more base damage/time. Now calculate this for a 40 shots + 10 sec reload period and it does only 2% more damage. Both guns have about the same cap/sec drain (with the laser one being slightly higher). And while needing no real ammo is a (logistic) advantage (ratting in an AC cyclone these days, so I know about this) this advantage on the t1 lvl is quite easily balanced by the situation on the t2 lvl. 1 t2 crystal is holds on average for 1000 shots. 1000 tremor L costs in jita right now 600k. 1 aurora L 1900k. Also, while you'll be just fine with 1k-2k tremor for PvP you'll need 1 crystal for every laser. So for longrange ammo you have to take about 1 mil worth with you with a tempest while on an apoc you have to carry 15 mil in ammo with you.
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.02 21:31:00 -
[2464 ]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/10/2006 21:35:16 Originally by: The Armin Going to state the obvious here, you rdy ? You just posted the most common Geddon setup And how are you supposed to run the rep with 8 guns firering and no cap bonus and no cap mods ? You obviously never flied Amarr so go whine in the Deimos thread pls. Oh and my post was in reply to someone suggesting a full rack of guns and a dual rep tank. Reading everyhting ftw and don't take stuff out of context pls. To one point a Cap Booster would keep the guns firering and the reppers repping but not for long I think. Not without NOS/Cap Mods/Laser Cap Bonii Your talking about a ship that isn't even out, no one knows the stat's for sure, my point was just to show even if it can't it isn't the end of the world, a Mega with dual rep and blasters and large cap booster can't run it forever (not helped by mwd). Yes, I know its a Geddon setup, its not like theres a lot of different things you can do with lots of turret slots, minimal meds and lots of lows. Also where did you think I got idea from, yeah the CVA video's, so I took my examples by modifying existing Amarr pilots setups. It's not like I was making stuff up from nothing, I did some research, which I suggest people should do such as the "minmatar can fire EM in there turrets". Yes we can but the 2nd damage is explosive which is about 44% Explosive, the highest resist against shields which is where you would use EM when you have a choice. And I assumed that you meant a cap booster since all dual reps require a cap booster, a dual rep tank without cap booster is silly. So my reply was to simply not use dual rep, and showed what possibilities there are in the lows, I never once said about the mid slots. So keeping the assumed cap booster, like you end your reply above can support a dual rep and laser so it can support lasers + single rep to, hence no cap problems from lasers! Where was my whine? Please point out where I cryied my eyes out and demanded changes? Thats right, I proposed some alternatives to a problem instead of comming on forums and crying about it. Oh and I don't fly Gallente. I've listened to people I respect about the "amarr situation", hence by comment on EANM and a proposed solution which I wouldn't have a problem with being the people who would be affected by it since it would affect my tank vs Amarr. But obviously the people who fly the ship should be the only people with an opinion on it and its solution even if it would affect the whole of the EVE. Grow up, i'm allowed an opinion and shouldn't appologise for having it (the great Sarm told me so!) /me waits another 10 pages to see if the same old suggestions/complaints are still going. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.02 21:39:00 -
[2465 ]
Edited by: The Armin on 02/10/2006 21:42:57 Originally by: Areconus Even more blablablabla, Some personal injuries, and in general little understanding of Amarr. You don't get it DO you. Just because Amarr drones and our Avatar does EM wtf does that have to do with the Amarr problem ? I quote you "So, if Amarr were given explosive, then lets give Minmatar EM, Gallente kinetic, and Caldari thermal, and screw up all of the resists as well" <- -.- rofl. Minnie already has EM, as I told you. Gallente already does kinetic. and Caldari can use thermal missiles, or fit rails that already does thermal. AMARR IS BOUND to EM/Therm. Others is NOT bound to their "racial" dmg, even with their "racial" guns or "racial" missile launchers. (Except for Gallente, but they have drones to mix a lot with) Our main damage type can be snowballs for what I care.
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.02 21:41:00 -
[2466 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc ......... What I meant was you posted a Geddon setup as a setup on our new bs, but we don't really need a new Geddon.
Siakel
Posted - 2006.10.02 21:51:00 -
[2467 ]
Originally by: The Armin Originally by: Mila Prestoc ......... What I meant was you posted a Geddon setup as a setup on our new bs, but we don't really need a new Geddon. No, but apparently we're getting a new Armageddon whether we want it or not. Or you can put Projectiles on it and have a new Apocalypse.
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.02 21:54:00 -
[2468 ]
Originally by: Siakel No, but apparently we're getting a new Armageddon whether we want it or not. Or you can put Projectiles on it and have a new Apocalypse. That's what I'm afraid of :(
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.02 21:57:00 -
[2469 ]
one solution to the crystal cost problem would be to have crystals that burn out after 1shot and thus making it use 1 shot/crystal. and during a patch just change all tech2 crystals to 1000rounds -the dmg on the crystals and make the BP's do 5k runs like all other tech2 ammo BP's Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Horza Otho
MinmatarSilver Star Federation
Posted - 2006.10.02 22:38:00 -
[2470 ]
The last 80 pages in this thread has been full of Amarr retards pulling every excuse out of their hat to whine about another race. This thread should have been locked long ago on account of the idiocy being spilled out onto other threads.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.02 22:43:00 -
[2471 ]
Originally by: Horza Otho The last 80 pages in this thread has been full of Amarr retards pulling every excuse out of their hat to whine about another race. This thread should have been locked long ago on account of the idiocy being spilled out onto other threads. to start with why are you even bothering if you have nothing constructive to add? personal insults to whoever you was directing your comment at is still not allowed on these forums and trolling is not either. go train your forum f00 on the wow forums instead. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Horza Otho
MinmatarSilver Star Federation
Posted - 2006.10.02 22:46:00 -
[2472 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Horza Otho The last 80 pages in this thread has been full of Amarr retards pulling every excuse out of their hat to whine about another race. This thread should have been locked long ago on account of the idiocy being spilled out onto other threads. to start with why are you even bothering if you have nothing constructive to add? personal insults to whoever you was directing your comment at is still not allowed on these forums and trolling is not either. go train your forum f00 on the wow forums instead. I'm stateing the fact the idiocy demonstrated on this thread is lacking in any form of constructive explanations as to why Amarr should be boosted, and how. People instead post stupid comments and should not be so as to not mold others minds to the same thinking, that would be inhumaine. Hence why i believe this thread should be locked.
Hellspawn01
AmarrThe Phantom Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:04:00 -
[2473 ]
Originally by: Horza Otho Edited by: Horza Otho on 02/10/2006 22:47:49 Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Horza Otho The last 80 pages in this thread has been full of Amarr retards pulling every excuse out of their hat to whine about another race. This thread should have been locked long ago on account of the idiocy being spilled out onto other threads. to start with why are you even bothering if you have nothing constructive to add? personal insults to whoever you was directing your comment at is still not allowed on these forums and trolling is not either. go train your forum f00 on the wow forums instead. I'm stateing the fact the idiocy demonstrated on this thread is lacking in any form of constructive explanations as to why Amarr should be boosted, and how. People instead post stupid comments and should not be allowed to do so as to not mold others minds to the same thinking, that would be inhumaine. Hence why i believe this thread should be locked. Furthermore, I will never lower my standards to play such a stupid game as WoW, thankyou. This is a forum to discuss things if you havent noticed yet. Your rant and insults dont help at all. Now go away and renew the duct tape on your ships and let ppl discuss this topic.Ship lovers click here
Horza Otho
MinmatarSilver Star Federation
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:06:00 -
[2474 ]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Horza Otho Edited by: Horza Otho on 02/10/2006 22:47:49 Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Horza Otho The last 80 pages in this thread has been full of Amarr retards pulling every excuse out of their hat to whine about another race. This thread should have been locked long ago on account of the idiocy being spilled out onto other threads. to start with why are you even bothering if you have nothing constructive to add? personal insults to whoever you was directing your comment at is still not allowed on these forums and trolling is not either. go train your forum f00 on the wow forums instead. I'm stateing the fact the idiocy demonstrated on this thread is lacking in any form of constructive explanations as to why Amarr should be boosted, and how. People instead post stupid comments and should not be allowed to do so as to not mold others minds to the same thinking, that would be inhumaine. Hence why i believe this thread should be locked. Furthermore, I will never lower my standards to play such a stupid game as WoW, thankyou. This is a forum to discuss things if you havent noticed yet. Your rant and insults dont help at all. Now go away and renew the duct tape on your ships and let ppl discuss this topic. Lol... I hardly call Whineing for a "fix" to "balance" the races a discussion.
Miri Tirzan
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:06:00 -
[2475 ]
My you are clueless. The Amarr do mainly EM damage. Since the last few changes, EM has the highest resistance in most common tank setup. Basically the EM doing weapons only do half damage now to most other players in PvP situations. This is what needs to be address. This is on top of having the weakest EW platforms in space and some of the worst drone bays. Other than that, I guess your right, everything is fine with Amarr. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:07:00 -
[2476 ]
Horza - To get the information you are looking for, try reading the entire thread. If you are too lazy to do so, you could just ask for the information you need. Try page 41, and again on page 70,71. Pretty sure thats where the summary pages are. Thanks! Now on to other things. I want to discuss Tracking Disruptors more, and how to make them more usable. ECM and Dampers both see a lot of use becuase they actually keep a hostile from being able to target you if used properly. They work against all ships. Tracking Disruptors work against Gal and Amarr ships VERY well, but do nothing against Caldari, and very little against ACs because falloff is SO much more important than optimal. If TDs cant be changed to affect missiles, why don't they at least affect Falloff as well as Optimal. New Tracking Disruptor: -Tracking, -50% Optimal, -50% Falloff. Right now ECM>>>>Dampers>>TD. Changing TDs to affect Falloff as well as Optimal means that they would effect all turret users equally, and make them more attractive to mount. Thoughts? Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Horza Otho
MinmatarSilver Star Federation
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:12:00 -
[2477 ]
Edited by: Horza Otho on 02/10/2006 23:12:42 Originally by: Miri Tirzan My you are clueless. The Amarr do mainly EM damage. Since the last few changes, EM has the highest resistance in most common tank setup. Basically the EM doing weapons only do half damage now to most other players in PvP situations. This is what needs to be address. This is on top of having the weakest EW platforms in space and some of the worst drone bays. Other than that, I guess your right, everything is fine with Amarr. Oh gee, amarr have it so bad, you guys do crappy em damage and you still outdamage my tempest. Oh the humanity!
Lazy8s
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:15:00 -
[2478 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Murukan K nub your first poitn is a big **** no cause that trivializes minmatar ammo. When i can reload my guns in one second and have my ammo take very little cargo space then maybe. Actually the reload time is included in the gun stats. For example compare a heavy beam + 50% cap bonus vs a 250mm rail + 25% damage bonus and the rail does 7% more base damage/time. Now calculate this for a 40 shots + 10 sec reload period and it does only 2% more damage. Both guns have about the same cap/sec drain (with the laser one being slightly higher). And while needing no real ammo is a (logistic) advantage (ratting in an AC cyclone these days, so I know about this) this advantage on the t1 lvl is quite easily balanced by the situation on the t2 lvl. 1 t2 crystal is holds on average for 1000 shots. 1000 tremor L costs in jita right now 600k. 1 aurora L 1900k. Also, while you'll be just fine with 1k-2k tremor for PvP you'll need 1 crystal for every laser. So for longrange ammo you have to take about 1 mil worth with you with a tempest while on an apoc you have to carry 15 mil in ammo with you. Just a quick comment I'm sure I will get flammed for. Everyone says the amarrs get screwed because of crystal price. Look at caldari, they pay 10mil+ PER siege launcher. T2 drones are a couple mil a piece and gallente carry how many per ship? T2 425mm rails by me are 15-18mil each while T2 tachs (most expensive I could find out here) are only5mil each. Sure the ammo may be fore but in the end it works out about the same or less. No T2 battleship is cheap to lose and amarr definately is not more expensive, people just complain because the ammo is alot more. Now, if all you do is mission/rat with T2 ammo this hurts but since people know T2 ammo on missions or for ratting is a waste of money we can assume it's used for pvp and therefore it all costs about the same.
Lazy8s
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:17:00 -
[2479 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Horza - To get the information you are looking for, try reading the entire thread. If you are too lazy to do so, you could just ask for the information you need. Try page 41, and again on page 70,71. Pretty sure thats where the summary pages are. Thanks! Now on to other things. I want to discuss Tracking Disruptors more, and how to make them more usable. ECM and Dampers both see a lot of use becuase they actually keep a hostile from being able to target you if used properly. They work against all ships. Tracking Disruptors work against Gal and Amarr ships VERY well, but do nothing against Caldari, and very little against ACs because falloff is SO much more important than optimal. If TDs cant be changed to affect missiles, why don't they at least affect Falloff as well as Optimal. New Tracking Disruptor: -Tracking, -50% Optimal, -50% Falloff. Right now ECM>>>>Dampers>>TD. Changing TDs to affect Falloff as well as Optimal means that they would effect all turret users equally, and make them more attractive to mount. Thoughts? Nyxus How would falloff and optimal affect missiles? I fly caldari and none of my missiles have either attribute.
Hellspawn01
AmarrThe Phantom Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:22:00 -
[2480 ]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan My you are clueless. The Amarr do mainly EM damage. Since the last few changes, EM has the highest resistance in most common tank setup. Basically the EM doing weapons only do half damage now to most other players in PvP situations. This is what needs to be address. This is on top of having the weakest EW platforms in space and some of the worst drone bays. Other than that, I guess your right, everything is fine with Amarr. 50% of the amarr damage is thermal but every ship is hardened against thermal. So in the end, you do less than 25% thermic and about 25% EM damage of the total damage output against decent tanked ships. T2 ships are another story. Originally by: Nyxus Right now ECM>>>>Dampers>>TD. Changing TDs to affect Falloff as well as Optimal means that they would effect all turret users equally, and make them more attractive to mount. There are only 2 modules that you can use against missile ships. ECM and dampeners. Maybe turret ships should get a higher sensor strenght cuz you have 4 modules that you can use to ruin their day. On the other hand, how can you give amarr explosive or kinetic crystals? How will you implent that into a laser? Doesnt make much sense. Scientificly not working out (from my point of view at least). But how can you boost their guns more? They are supposed to be the hardest hitting guns of all (Tachyons) already afaik.Ship lovers click here
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:28:00 -
[2481 ]
Originally by: Lazy8s How would falloff and optimal affect missiles? I fly caldari and none of my missiles have either attribute. It will if you fly a harpy, Moa, or Rokh. But you are correct, it won't effect missile users. While I REALLY REALLY think it would be balanced if TDs effected effected Explosion Radius, there seems to be a "lack of will" from the Devs to do so. It may be hard to implement becuase explosion radius is a missile attribute, rather than the launcher. Or it may be that the oh-so-long- awaited "Point Defense" system is still in the works. In either case, I don't think its feasible anytime soon. Adding a -50% falloff penalty to TDs would be a relatively easy addition, and would at least make TDs more usefull against 3 out of the 4 racial ships, and effect all turrets equally. Otherwise we should just have Matari lose thier Target Painting bonus and have a Disruptor that lowers tracking and falloff, while leaving optimal alone. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:29:00 -
[2482 ]
I agree that expl would be kinda hard to explain with lasers, but kinetic ? Kinetic is just particles/other stuff that is moving at a high speed right? :p
Lazy8s
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:29:00 -
[2483 ]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Miri Tirzan My you are clueless. The Amarr do mainly EM damage. Since the last few changes, EM has the highest resistance in most common tank setup. Basically the EM doing weapons only do half damage now to most other players in PvP situations. This is what needs to be address. This is on top of having the weakest EW platforms in space and some of the worst drone bays. Other than that, I guess your right, everything is fine with Amarr. 50% of the amarr damage is thermal but every ship is hardened against thermal. So in the end, you do less than 25% thermic and about 25% EM damage of the total damage output against decent tanked ships. T2 ships are another story. Originally by: Nyxus Right now ECM>>>>Dampers>>TD. Changing TDs to affect Falloff as well as Optimal means that they would effect all turret users equally, and make them more attractive to mount. There are only 2 modules that you can use against missile ships. ECM and dampeners. Maybe turret ships should get a higher sensor strenght cuz you have 4 modules that you can use to ruin their day. On the other hand, how can you give amarr explosive or kinetic crystals? How will you implent that into a laser? Doesnt make much sense. Scientificly not working out (from my point of view at least). But how can you boost their guns more? They are supposed to be the hardest hitting guns of all (Tachyons) already afaik. I know it's been stated but I'll say this again. Lasers actually do have kinetic properties, all beams do. In fact, one way they get satellites into far space (beyone pluto) is put big sails on them. Since space is a vacuum there is no wind, but the force of light from the sun on them pushes them out into space. Lasers are currently used as high-tech tweasers as well since they have the power to pick stuff up. Now, you would have to have a VERY powerful laser sure, but they do have kinetic potential.
Lazy8s
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:31:00 -
[2484 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Lazy8s How would falloff and optimal affect missiles? I fly caldari and none of my missiles have either attribute. It will if you fly a harpy, Moa, or Rokh. But you are correct, it won't effect missile users. While I REALLY REALLY think it would be balanced if TDs effected effected Explosion Radius, there seems to be a "lack of will" from the Devs to do so. It may be hard to implement becuase explosion radius is a missile attribute, rather than the launcher. Or it may be that the oh-so-long- awaited "Point Defense" system is still in the works. In either case, I don't think its feasible anytime soon. Adding a -50% falloff penalty to TDs would be a relatively easy addition, and would at least make TDs more usefull against 3 out of the 4 racial ships, and effect all turrets equally. Otherwise we should just have Matari lose thier Target Painting bonus and have a Disruptor that lowers tracking and falloff, while leaving optimal alone. Nyxus What wuld be great would be to see a reason for ships to use a highslot for a standard or assault launcher to use defender missiles against caldari torps in PvP....oh dang I just gave away a great caldari beating tactic....
Naylon
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:32:00 -
[2485 ]
Originally by: Lazy8s I know it's been stated but I'll say this again. Lasers actually do have kinetic properties, all beams do. In fact, one way they get satellites into far space (beyone pluto) is put big sails on them. Since space is a vacuum there is no wind, but the force of light from the sun on them pushes them out into space. Lasers are currently used as high-tech tweasers as well since they have the power to pick stuff up. Now, you would have to have a VERY powerful laser sure, but they do have kinetic potential. Not as a big a potential as a big Artillery shell hitting the side of your ship. Which is what I envision kinetic damage to mean. Of course you could just have kinetic pixies which bang their heads against the side of the ship. But then that would do more kinetic damage than lasers so we are back to square one...
Hellspawn01
AmarrThe Phantom Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:33:00 -
[2486 ]
Originally by: Lazy8s What wuld be great would be to see a reason for ships to use a highslot for a standard or assault launcher to use defender missiles against caldari torps in PvP....oh dang I just gave away a great caldari beating tactic.... If defenders would work right, I would agree.Ship lovers click here
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.02 23:49:00 -
[2487 ]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Lazy8s What wuld be great would be to see a reason for ships to use a highslot for a standard or assault launcher to use defender missiles against caldari torps in PvP....oh dang I just gave away a great caldari beating tactic.... If defenders would work right, I would agree. ROFLMAO!!!! <wipes tears from eyes> Lazy have you ever *USED* defender missiles? Do you know how many defenders it takes to kill a torpedo? Have you ever checked the velocity of a Javelin Torp? At the distance you would need in order for defenders to even try to kill ONE? Have you ever seen defenders actually try to catch up to torps? I tell you what. You get in your ship with lots of faction stuff and some defenders and I will come shoot at you with my Javelin torp Raven and you can show me how well they work. Winner gets to keep the others can, mmmkay? LOL, defenders!!!! Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Borasao
Posted - 2006.10.03 00:25:00 -
[2488 ]
Heh... arguing about GAME mechanics in a FICTIONAL universe that has SO many things that aren't even close to REAL physics... Lasers can't have kinetic damage... give me a break. It's just a field in a database table. How about make acceleration and such follow simple Newtonian physics (not to even mention relativistic). How about ships flying around in WARP??? If you argue "physics" reasons for anything in this GAME, you r teh silly already and fail at teh intarweb. There's almost nothing in this game that follows physics so you have a long list of things to "fix" before you have to worry about lasers doing kinetic damage.
Lazy8s
Posted - 2006.10.03 02:13:00 -
[2489 ]
Edited by: Lazy8s on 03/10/2006 02:14:25 Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Lazy8s What wuld be great would be to see a reason for ships to use a highslot for a standard or assault launcher to use defender missiles against caldari torps in PvP....oh dang I just gave away a great caldari beating tactic.... If defenders would work right, I would agree. ROFLMAO!!!! <wipes tears from eyes> Lazy have you ever *USED* defender missiles? Do you know how many defenders it takes to kill a torpedo? Have you ever checked the velocity of a Javelin Torp? At the distance you would need in order for defenders to even try to kill ONE? Have you ever seen defenders actually try to catch up to torps? I tell you what. You get in your ship with lots of faction stuff and some defenders and I will come shoot at you with my Javelin torp Raven and you can show me how well they work. Winner gets to keep the others can, mmmkay? LOL, defenders!!!! Nyxus I almost didn't respond because I thought maybe you'd get it and edit your post but since you aparently have 0 reading comprehension here you go: Main Entry: sar+casm Pronunciation: 'sSr-"ka-z&m Function: noun 1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance 2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language And incase you missed ironic: Main Entry: iro+ny Pronunciation: 'I-r&-nE also 'I(-&)r-nE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -nies Etymology: Latin ironia, from Greek eirOnia, from eirOn dissembler 1 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning -- called also Socratic irony 2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.03 03:11:00 -
[2490 ]
Originally by: Lazy8s Edited by: Lazy8s on 02/10/2006 23:25:23 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Murukan K nub your first poitn is a big **** no cause that trivializes minmatar ammo. When i can reload my guns in one second and have my ammo take very little cargo space then maybe. Actually the reload time is included in the gun stats. For example compare a heavy beam + 50% cap bonus vs a 250mm rail + 25% damage bonus and the rail does 7% more base damage/time. Now calculate this for a 40 shots + 10 sec reload period and it does only 2% more damage. Both guns have about the same cap/sec drain (with the laser one being slightly higher). And while needing no real ammo is a (logistic) advantage (ratting in an AC cyclone these days, so I know about this) this advantage on the t1 lvl is quite easily balanced by the situation on the t2 lvl. 1 t2 crystal is holds on average for 1000 shots. 1000 tremor L costs in jita right now 600k. 1 aurora L 1900k. Also, while you'll be just fine with 1k-2k tremor for PvP you'll need 1 crystal for every laser. So for longrange ammo you have to take about 1 mil worth with you with a tempest while on an apoc you have to carry 15 mil in ammo with you. Just a quick comment I'm sure I will get flammed for. Everyone says the amarrs get screwed because of crystal price. Look at caldari, they pay 10mil+ PER siege launcher. T2 drones are a couple mil a piece and gallente carry how many per ship? T2 425mm rails by me are 15-18mil each while T2 tachs (most expensive I could find out here) are only5mil each. Sure the ammo may be more but in the end it works out about the same or less. No T2 battleship is cheap to lose and amarr definately is not more expensive, people just complain because the ammo is alot more. Now, if all you do is mission/rat with T2 ammo this hurts but since people know T2 ammo on missions or for ratting is a waste of money we can assume it's used for pvp and therefore it all costs about the same. and what drives down demand? and what drives up demand? the less ppl that use a certain gun the cheaper it gets basically. now go wonder again if your post was a foot in your mouth. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.10.03 03:18:00 -
[2491 ]
to help keep this on topic (if this is even possible anymore), and possibly to cut a few forum warrior fights before they escalate. i would think assuming anyone understands irony and sarcasm in the form of text is a mistake, especially in a quick forum post to convey the whole message you intended at the time of writing. i know many people who go back and read their own forum posts later and wonder wtf they were thinking at the time.
Deschenus Maximus
AmarrIn Articulo Mortis
Posted - 2006.10.03 03:53:00 -
[2492 ]
Quick question for the old guys: have shield and armor EM resists always been like this? If not, why was this changed? Seems to me that quite a few problems with the lasers would vanish if EM resists weren't "special" and brought into line with the rest of the others i.e. raised on shields and lowered on armor. FOR THE EMPEROR!The Second NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.03 04:23:00 -
[2493 ]
Short term quick fix: 1. Increase Laser Thermal Damage 2. Upgrade Thermal Hardeners 3. Decrease slightly the cap req on lasers 4. Decrease slightly the PG req for lasers (namely Tachyon, Megabeam, Megapulse, Med beam, Med pulse, Heavy Beam, Heavy pulse) so that Amarr don't fill up lows with engineering mods. Or, do the stuff I have in my complaint post, think all this is included, but this here would make me happy enough. Oh, and make the Abaddon 8/5/8 and I will be VERY happy. Fear is the mind-killer.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.03 12:00:00 -
[2494 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 03/10/2006 12:03:38 Originally by: Lazy8s Just a quick comment I'm sure I will get flammed for. Everyone says the amarrs get screwed because of crystal price. Look at caldari, they pay 10mil+ PER siege launcher. T2 drones are a couple mil a piece and gallente carry how many per ship? T2 425mm rails by me are 15-18mil each while T2 tachs (most expensive I could find out here) are only5mil each.... *flame* *cough* *cough* The siege & rail prices are an valid argument. But I think only a temporary one because with kali & invation those prices should go back to a more normal lvl. I have my doubts that this will happen with t2 crystals. There are already a lot more ammo BPOs around that gun BPOs, so supply<demand should not push prices up there. Drone prices are IMO no argument, though, mainly because all ships are using them, including amarr. And a domi won't full his whole dronebay with t2 ogres. Originally by: Nyxus If TDs cant be changed to affect missiles, why don't they at least affect Falloff as well as Optimal. New Tracking Disruptor: -Tracking, -50% Optimal, -50% Falloff. Right now ECM>>>>Dampers>>TD. Changing TDs to affect Falloff as well as Optimal means that they would effect all turret users equally, and make them more attractive to mount. Thoughts? Nyxus I would agree with the general effeciency relation of ECM, damps and TDs. I also generally agree that letting them effect falloff would make them more inline with damperners. Problems: Unless you meant to drop the tracking penality for that it would reduce 3 stats, which no module does AFAIK. Also, *if* such a change is made tracking comps should also boost falloff. Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Quick question for the old guys: have shield and armor EM resists always been like this? If not, why was this changed? Seems to me that quite a few problems with the lasers would vanish if EM resists weren't "special" and brought into line with the rest of the others i.e. raised on shields and lowered on armor. They were always like this. The problem is that until recently there was no viaable omni-harderner for armor, so people used 3 actives for therm, kin, exp and ignored EM since it was already high. As effect all resistances on hardered armor were about 60%.
Deschenus Maximus
AmarrIn Articulo Mortis
Posted - 2006.10.03 12:28:00 -
[2495 ]
Originally by: Aramendel They were always like this. The problem is that until recently there was no viaable omni-harderner for armor, so people used 3 actives for therm, kin, exp and ignored EM since it was already high. As effect all resistances on hardered armor were about 60%. That's just silly then. I realise this must be some attempt by CCP to bring "realism" into the game (shields being less resistant to EM fields and compensating with armor being more resistant to it), but I think in most cases, reality has taken a backseat to game balance. So why not rejigg the EM resists across the board? Are there possible other balance issues this would affect? I don't see any from the top of my head. FOR THE EMPEROR!The Second NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Belial02
Amarr133rd Ghost Wing
Posted - 2006.10.03 12:34:00 -
[2496 ]
Forget about realism...
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.03 12:45:00 -
[2497 ]
Yes, changing base armor EM resists to 40% or 45% and base shield EM resists to 20% or 15% should solve the problem nicely IMO.
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.10.03 17:32:00 -
[2498 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 03/10/2006 17:32:33 Originally by: Aramendel Yes, changing base armor EM resists to 40% or 45% and base shield EM resists to 20% or 15% should solve the problem nicely IMO. So there basically is no point for having specialised damage, the guy that does the most DPS wins, doesnt matter what type... really crap idea. _________________________________________________
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.03 17:37:00 -
[2499 ]
It would still be the highest armor & lowest shield resistance. It's either that or boost laser damage (bad) or change 1/6 of all ships in eve to shieldtankers so we have 50:50 armor:shieldtanks ingame (virtually impossible). I see no other way to solve the EM resistance problem.
Byzan Zwyth
Posted - 2006.10.03 19:32:00 -
[2500 ]
the whole "realism" thing does my head in. you're talking about a space flight simulator with air resistance and sound. Although the game would be pretty silly without sound, the fact you slow down really quickley when you shut your AB or engine off seems really silly. I just imagine it's an underwater game rather than a space sim :p ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow and look cool... Gallente because they are effective
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.03 20:01:00 -
[2501 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 03/10/2006 20:02:09 Well, it used to be only 2. But Invuln field and EAN IIs boost 4 if you look at it a certain way. If not then there are still ships like the Bombers that have hidden bonuses, or it can be reflected in the wording. You also have some T2 ships with built in damage resists and whatnot. Or we could change the wording. Example: -50% Tracking & -50% Weapon Turret Ranges. Where turret range is both falloff and optimal. Even if this was only on T2 Tracking Disruptors, at least it would give a reason to put them on. If it effected Nos as well as guns that would be even better. Good nos counter as well. My curse would hate them forever though. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Kunming
Amarradeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.10.03 20:07:00 -
[2502 ]
Originally by: Aramendel It would still be the highest armor & lowest shield resistance. It's either that or boost laser damage (bad) or change 1/6 of all ships in eve to shieldtankers so we have 50:50 armor:shieldtanks ingame (virtually impossible). I see no other way to solve the EM resistance problem. Increasing thermal dmg on short range crystals would actually solve the problem.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.03 20:25:00 -
[2503 ]
Originally by: Aramendel It would still be the highest armor & lowest shield resistance. It's either that or boost laser damage (bad) or change 1/6 of all ships in eve to shieldtankers so we have 50:50 armor:shieldtanks ingame (virtually impossible). I see no other way to solve the EM resistance problem. At first I was against this, but honestly the longer this drags on the more I think this would be the easier fix. With EAN IIs it would be EM resists at 71%, which is STILL higher than anything else, but its a helluva lot better than we have now. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.03 21:00:00 -
[2504 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Aramendel It would still be the highest armor & lowest shield resistance. It's either that or boost laser damage (bad) or change 1/6 of all ships in eve to shieldtankers so we have 50:50 armor:shieldtanks ingame (virtually impossible). I see no other way to solve the EM resistance problem. At first I was against this, but honestly the longer this drags on the more I think this would be the easier fix. With EAN IIs it would be EM resists at 71%, which is STILL higher than anything else, but its a helluva lot better than we have now. Nyxus Yes but it resigns everyone to a EANM + damage control tank or you need 4x active hardeners if you don't want any big holes. Not a good idea IMHO. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Deschenus Maximus
AmarrIn Articulo Mortis
Posted - 2006.10.03 21:16:00 -
[2505 ]
I don't see why EM would have to be "set" on all ships. Why couldn't it vary? For example, it would be high on both shields and armor of minnie ships and shi**y on Amarr ships. This would add even more racial diversity. For instance, the resists on both shields and armor could be (from highest to lowest): Minnie: EM, Kin, therm, explo Amarr: Explo, Them, Kin, EM Caldari: Therm, Explo, EM, Kin Gallente: Kin, EM, Explo, Therm (The pattern is rather obvious; highest is that of its racial enemy, 2nd highest is that of the enemy's ally, 3rd highest is that of the ally and 4th highest is own damage type. Racial damagetypes are not as obvious to differentiate ref Caldari and Gallente, but Caldari get kin damage bonuses on their missiles and both races' drones do a specific damagetype). FOR THE EMPEROR!The Second NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Lazy8s
Posted - 2006.10.03 22:59:00 -
[2506 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Lazy8s Edited by: Lazy8s on 02/10/2006 23:25:23 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Murukan K nub your first poitn is a big **** no cause that trivializes minmatar ammo. When i can reload my guns in one second and have my ammo take very little cargo space then maybe. Actually the reload time is included in the gun stats. For example compare a heavy beam + 50% cap bonus vs a 250mm rail + 25% damage bonus and the rail does 7% more base damage/time. Now calculate this for a 40 shots + 10 sec reload period and it does only 2% more damage. Both guns have about the same cap/sec drain (with the laser one being slightly higher). And while needing no real ammo is a (logistic) advantage (ratting in an AC cyclone these days, so I know about this) this advantage on the t1 lvl is quite easily balanced by the situation on the t2 lvl. 1 t2 crystal is holds on average for 1000 shots. 1000 tremor L costs in jita right now 600k. 1 aurora L 1900k. Also, while you'll be just fine with 1k-2k tremor for PvP you'll need 1 crystal for every laser. So for longrange ammo you have to take about 1 mil worth with you with a tempest while on an apoc you have to carry 15 mil in ammo with you. Just a quick comment I'm sure I will get flammed for. Everyone says the amarrs get screwed because of crystal price. Look at caldari, they pay 10mil+ PER siege launcher. T2 drones are a couple mil a piece and gallente carry how many per ship? T2 425mm rails by me are 15-18mil each while T2 tachs (most expensive I could find out here) are only5mil each. Sure the ammo may be more but in the end it works out about the same or less. No T2 battleship is cheap to lose and amarr definately is not more expensive, people just complain because the ammo is alot more. Now, if all you do is mission/rat with T2 ammo this hurts but since people know T2 ammo on missions or for ratting is a waste of money we can assume it's used for pvp and therefore it all costs about the same. and what drives down demand? and what drives up demand? the less ppl that use a certain gun the cheaper it gets basically. now go wonder again if your post was a foot in your mouth. ?? Who's foot went where? What does demand have to do with the fact that the prices work out evenly? Who cares if less people use lasers right now? If the prices change the argument would no longer be valid but for right now it is. Maybe you quoted the wrong person or perhaps you would like to try again? I think this kind of thing is why the devs haven't responded yet. The conversation is going well for a couple posts then you have people that come in obviously upset about amarr sucking or they think amarr are fine and they post some stupid crap that has nothing to do with anything and the thread gets derailes for 10 pages. If you would like to counter the argument that the prices work out the same please do so, until then try and remember demand has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I don't care if not a single person buys a laser for 10 years, the fact remains that the price of ammo + the gun = the price of most people's gun.
Stephar
The High Priest
Posted - 2006.10.03 23:17:00 -
[2507 ]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I don't see why EM would have to be "set" on all ships. Why couldn't it vary? For example, it would be high on both shields and armor of minnie ships and shi**y on Amarr ships. This would add even more racial diversity. For instance, the resists on both shields and armor could be (from highest to lowest): Minnie: EM, Kin, therm, explo Amarr: Explo, Them, Kin, EM Caldari: Therm, Explo, EM, Kin Gallente: Kin, EM, Explo, Therm (The pattern is rather obvious; highest is that of its racial enemy, 2nd highest is that of the enemy's ally, 3rd highest is that of the ally and 4th highest is own damage type. Racial damagetypes are not as obvious to differentiate ref Caldari and Gallente, but Caldari get kin damage bonuses on their missiles and both races' drones do a specific damagetype). It's probably too late for such a massive revamp, but I do like this idea.
Lazy8s
Posted - 2006.10.03 23:23:00 -
[2508 ]
Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I don't see why EM would have to be "set" on all ships. Why couldn't it vary? For example, it would be high on both shields and armor of minnie ships and shi**y on Amarr ships. This would add even more racial diversity. For instance, the resists on both shields and armor could be (from highest to lowest): Minnie: EM, Kin, therm, explo Amarr: Explo, Them, Kin, EM Caldari: Therm, Explo, EM, Kin Gallente: Kin, EM, Explo, Therm (The pattern is rather obvious; highest is that of its racial enemy, 2nd highest is that of the enemy's ally, 3rd highest is that of the ally and 4th highest is own damage type. Racial damagetypes are not as obvious to differentiate ref Caldari and Gallente, but Caldari get kin damage bonuses on their missiles and both races' drones do a specific damagetype). It's probably too late for such a massive revamp, but I do like this idea. Seconded. Great idea but I do doubt this will happen. With equal resists across the board it's one less thing for people to complain about for balance.....kind of...
Deschenus Maximus
AmarrIn Articulo Mortis
Posted - 2006.10.03 23:50:00 -
[2509 ]
Originally by: Lazy8s Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I don't see why EM would have to be "set" on all ships. Why couldn't it vary? For example, it would be high on both shields and armor of minnie ships and shi**y on Amarr ships. This would add even more racial diversity. For instance, the resists on both shields and armor could be (from highest to lowest): Minnie: EM, Kin, therm, explo Amarr: Explo, Them, Kin, EM Caldari: Therm, Explo, EM, Kin Gallente: Kin, EM, Explo, Therm (The pattern is rather obvious; highest is that of its racial enemy, 2nd highest is that of the enemy's ally, 3rd highest is that of the ally and 4th highest is own damage type. Racial damagetypes are not as obvious to differentiate ref Caldari and Gallente, but Caldari get kin damage bonuses on their missiles and both races' drones do a specific damagetype). It's probably too late for such a massive revamp, but I do like this idea. Seconded. Great idea but I do doubt this will happen. With equal resists across the board it's one less thing for people to complain about for balance.....kind of... Surely this isn't the first time somebody suggested this? I am kinda baffled by the fact that this wasn't implemented into the game from day one. I remember when I started playing Eve 3 months ago and going "WTF?" when I saw how EM resists were distributed on shields and armour. I don't get why the devs never picked up on this. FOR THE EMPEROR!The Second NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Lim LiLian
Posted - 2006.10.04 05:51:00 -
[2510 ]
I wonder when this game will ever balance up this one race with the other 3 and would EVE ever be a balanced 4 race like how Starcraft balanced up their 3. Totally different and diversed yet very much balanced
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.04 06:02:00 -
[2511 ]
The hope I've had that CCP would/will fix Amarr is dwindling. I continue to see devs reply & respond to questions about all other topics. Hell, someone asked what the Caldari tier 3 bs was going to be, missle boat or rail boat. Dev Responded in record time. I dont understand, Amarr pilots can stew in anger, yet caldari pilots get answered handed to them when that info is in a past dev blog, and with any searching he could have found this out. Am I just paranoid? Will CCP grow a heart and listen? Or should i give up now?
Amarrian Android
Viziam
Posted - 2006.10.04 08:27:00 -
[2512 ]
This post has more views than the first 2 stickies at the top of this page combined.
Belial02
Amarr133rd Ghost Wing
Posted - 2006.10.04 09:09:00 -
[2513 ]
Yeah but then it seems to interest only players.... and trolls... not devs Or if it does they dont say so... Guess we're in a 'heh *shrugs*' bin at CCP, somewhere near the coffee machine...
Mahavy Seth
AmarrImperial Academy
Posted - 2006.10.04 11:04:00 -
[2514 ]
Well... still sure amarr are not so ****ty.ANYWAY AT THIS TIME IS A GOOD MANNER THING FOR CCP TO RESPOND TO THIS, YET ONLY BECAUSE WE LET THEM EAT AND MAINTAIN THEIR FAMILIES BY PAYING THIS MONTHLY FEE, SO EVEN A "AMARR ARE OK" IS A MUST
Malak Sidious
Butcherbirds
Posted - 2006.10.04 11:12:00 -
[2515 ]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I don't see why EM would have to be "set" on all ships. Why couldn't it vary? For example, it would be high on both shields and armor of minnie ships and shi**y on Amarr ships. This would add even more racial diversity. For instance, the resists on both shields and armor could be (from highest to lowest): Minnie: EM, Kin, therm, explo Amarr: Explo, Them, Kin, EM Caldari: Therm, Explo, EM, Kin Gallente: Kin, EM, Explo, Therm (The pattern is rather obvious; highest is that of its racial enemy, 2nd highest is that of the enemy's ally, 3rd highest is that of the ally and 4th highest is own damage type. Racial damagetypes are not as obvious to differentiate ref Caldari and Gallente, but Caldari get kin damage bonuses on their missiles and both races' drones do a specific damagetype). All I can say is that's a great simplistic idea. Now whether the devs would actually want to go through the trouble of changing the resists to those, who knows. It's not that hard to do, but rather will they find it logical and beneficial to do so? Who knows what they have in store as of now or will ever have, or wont have. But anywho, I think that is one of the most sensible ideas across this entire 85 pages of junk and inspirations. It doesnt give a direct boost to amarr or a direct nerf to the other 3. It gives everyone a weak and strong defense. There will be at least one damage type for every race that will hurt every other race greatly or decently. Then one damage type from every race you resist well. Indirect buffs are better than direct buffs. You really cant complain on this one because everyone will be sitting in the same boat. It would be like everyone sitting in Amarr's current seat with one of their damage types having a resistance against from another race. I should probably put more thought in it on if these would apply to both shield and armor, if they'd vary on shield/armor per different ship or per race. Etc etc. Still alot to think about it but I really do like the idea so far. Only other thing I'd like to see is just decrease in cap useage. I'd rather have that than change damage types on crystals. Even if they did mess with damage types, I think only the long range crystals that do pure EM should be changed to pure Thermal. Shortrange should still be EM/Thermal so we dont out dps Gallente blasters. Either way I enjoy Amarr. I dont want to be FOTM either. I'd rather take something that people feel is broken and make it work than cry about it all day or take the easy way out. That way if and when we do get attention, I benefit more from the buffs. I'm against jumping ship so easily. Like the idea though. Later Quote: My need to engage in homicidal behavior on a massive scale cannot be corrected, but, ah, I have no other way to fulfil my needs.
Tommy Vercetti
The Nexus Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.04 12:52:00 -
[2516 ]
Originally by: Malak Sidious I'd rather take something that people feel is broken and make it work than cry about it all day or take the easy way out. It takes a slave to finally talk some sense. All I see here are proposed changes which will make the Amarr kick the living **** out of many many other ships, or gimp other races attributes to make your ships the best. Perhaps thats why its 85 pages and no dev responses. Players unwillling to adapt to their situation. If you read this and didn't play eve, you'd think no amarr pilot ever got a kill. The phoon is a perfect example, which minimatar pilot (hell any pilot) thought the phoon was a half decent tier 1 bs. Then sudddenly a video comes out of one with 5 nanos and there zooming all over the place. But in true amarr thread fashion, I'll let you do the and
Malak Sidious
MinmatarButcherbirds
Posted - 2006.10.04 13:20:00 -
[2517 ]
Edited by: Malak Sidious on 04/10/2006 13:23:41 Originally by: Tommy Vercetti Originally by: Malak Sidious I'd rather take something that people feel is broken and make it work than cry about it all day or take the easy way out. It takes a slave to finally talk some sense. All I see here are proposed changes which will make the Amarr kick the living **** out of many many other ships, or gimp other races attributes to make your ships the best. Perhaps thats why its 85 pages and no dev responses. Players unwillling to adapt to their situation. If you read this and didn't play eve, you'd think no amarr pilot ever got a kill. The phoon is a perfect example, which minimatar pilot (hell any pilot) thought the phoon was a half decent tier 1 bs. Then sudddenly a video comes out of one with 5 nanos and there zooming all over the place. But in true amarr thread fashion, I'll let you do the and Well when I first started playing I was trying to think who to go initially. I'm an underdog sort of person so I had heard alot of crap on Minmatar, so of course I went that route. As I played them I realized I didnt like the cannon animations and the pure uglyness of their ships turned me off. Oh and alot of people in my corp jumped to Minmatar and I just cant have that! So about 4 million SP in I had to make a decision finally of where to invest my time. I searched the boards over and over for the player base's evaluation on all ships. I wasnt for sure what my playstyle would ever be or if it would ever be the same. Regardless I wanted something I could switch around depending on my mood. I dont like being stuck in one form of gameplay indefinitely. Gallente said that range was far too short on blasters, ships should all have microwarpdrive bonuses, rails didnt compare to blasters and were utter failures. Minmatar said alpha strike was lame and they couldnt one shot a BS so it sucked. Caldari complained on flight time of missiles. Everyone wanted faster reload times. Amarr complained on lasers, tanking, midslots yadda yadda. Like any game you will have a 10-15% portion of the playerbase that will just never be satisfied. They'll want so much stuff revamped. To them not a single thing is wrong with another empire. Those I try to block out. The pure pesimists. So I have to look for the sensible posts. Hard to find those sometimes. Anywho it came down to every race seems to have good and bad, as it should be. Sure some ships need to be rethought, some slots need to be added or removed, some base resistances need to be increased or decreased, tracking on some weapons could be modified to increase efficiency. Thing is we cant control that decision, we cant influence devs to respond because they really do not have to. Asking a dev to reply here is like asking the owner of Wal-Mart to come to the can foods aisle and comment on why Bumble Bee tuna is more watery than Starkist tuna. They just dont have to and probably wont. Also if they respond, most people here will try to hold them to their response and make them feel obligated to carry out a "personal opinion" a dev might have made. Entrapment sucks. Anyways I rumaged through this thread one day and saw a massive amount of pages on Amarr, saw they were buff cries and various posts on how Amarr just dont function worth a damn. I said right then, this is me. I just like to make things work when everyone says it doesnt. Truth is if you couldnt make something happen with them, they'd have had some serious revamps earlier wouldnt you think? Maybe CCP has thought about it, but I dont think it's as serious as getting TQ stable, Kali ready to roll etc. I know some dont want to hear it, and it's NOT giving up, but you can always train up a bit in another empire. Mess around with other empire assault frigs, inty's. Get a feel of the other weaponry, you may find that you do or dont like it. I dont know I'm just not one that likes to complain. I just like to make something work when the common cry is, "It wont." Quote: My need to engage in homicidal behavior on a massive scale cannot be corrected, but, ah, I have no other way to fulfil my needs.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.04 13:38:00 -
[2518 ]
Originally by: Tommy Vercetti Players unwillling to adapt to their situation. In which way please? Saying "It is so" does not make it so. Making a statement without have some arguments to back it up makes that statement about as useful as writing "I am a fish." 50 times. And before the most obvious response comes, yes, lasers are weak vs armor and strong vs shields, so going vs shield tanked targets would make the most sense. But, to exaggerate a bit, if for one weapon 90% of all ships are "good" targets and for another 10% are "good" targets, which weapon will be on the whole better and more useable? And thats actually not far off right now, if 20% of all your targets shield tank you can callyourself lucky. And if every ship which could effeciently shieldtank would do so we would still have twice as many armortankers. So what makes up for this disadvantage? And before you say dps & tanking you should better take a very close look at the ships stats.
Kovacs Caprios
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.04 14:16:00 -
[2519 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Well... still sure amarr are not so ****ty.ANYWAY AT THIS TIME IS A GOOD MANNER THING FOR CCP TO RESPOND TO THIS, YET ONLY BECAUSE WE LET THEM EAT AND MAINTAIN THEIR FAMILIES BY PAYING THIS MONTHLY FEE, SO EVEN A "AMARR ARE OK" IS A MUST Does it really matter, if CCP respond, it is 85 pages.. a lot of the good arguments are lost under rubblish like this person posted.. The trolling and flaming have made this thread unreadable.. Does any one read the whole thread, or just the last two pages. There are some good arguments.... there just lost now
Tommy Vercetti
The Nexus Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.04 14:36:00 -
[2520 ]
Originally by: Aramendel And thats actually not far off right now, if 20% of all your targets shield tank you can call yourself lucky. And if every ship which could effeciently shieldtank would do so we would still have twice as many armortankers. Running with one of the points raised here, are you telling me amarr pilots win only 20% of fights they come across at best? Gee thats a brash statement. Yes my ac pest will suck c**k broadsided against a blasterthron, what do I do? I don't broadside a blasterthron. Yes i will get raped 30kms out from a arty rupture, so I take an ac setup, go in close, zoom around a bit and hope his tank doesn't hold. Ofc these basic tactics don't hold up all the time and I get pwned quite a bit, but its making do with what you got. My pest's dps is vastly below a throns, yet some here arguing amarr weaknesses believe ac dps shouldn't be increased in other threads. So it's ok for one race to do it tough, but for another its whine time when you fit cookie cutter setups against the strongest short range bs in game and come out second best? I'm sorry if you want me to give you ideas on how to innovate, thats your job as an amarr pilot, not mine. --------------------------------------------------- Tommy Vercetti A&E Director The Nexus Syndicate ---------------------------------------------------
Deschenus Maximus
AmarrIn Articulo Mortis
Posted - 2006.10.04 14:42:00 -
[2521 ]
Originally by: Malak Sidious All I can say is that's a great simplistic idea.snip Like the idea though. Later Glad you like it. I agree with you on the cap and differente damage crystals issue (explo crystals? Hell no!). Personnally, if I can get a reduction in cap usage (with associated different bonus than cap reduction bonus... to the point where I would prefer to do much less damage if it meant much less cap usage), redistribution of EM resists as I suggested and make fitting guns not an exercise in exasperation, I will be very happy. I must admit that I jumped boat to Caldari, but that is because I love long range guns, and Caldari ships, with rails AND optimal range bonuses, can shoot VERY far... but that only compensates so much for the uglyness of their ships. I would DEARLY love to come back to my Prophecy on more than just Sansha/Blood Raider-busting missions. FOR THE EMPEROR!The Second NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Jesabellita
AmarrFreedom Guard Imperium Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.04 15:52:00 -
[2522 ]
I would like to know what CCP thinks of all this. Even just a simple "amarr are fine" would help. I do see alot of whining in this thread, there are a few very valid points in between however. The fact that we havn't seen a dev response on this leads me to believe that they do see a problem but are unsure of what to do because a fix is more complicated then we all realize. I'm going to stay true to my race training-wise because I have hope that the Amarr will get tossed a perverbial bone at some point.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.04 18:39:00 -
[2523 ]
Originally by: Tommy Vercetti Running with one of the points raised here, are you telling me amarr pilots win only 20% of fights they come across at best? Gee thats a brash statement. Indeed it is. Good that I didn't made it - you did. Or is for you a disadvantage automatically a loss? It isn't - you can counter it with better skill (and higher SPs), more people or better tactics. But: this does not change that it is a disadvantage. If you have equal numbers, equal skill (in both real skill and SPs) and equal tactics it will cause a loss. Quote: Yes my ac pest will suck c**k broadsided against a blasterthron, what do I do? I don't broadside a blasterthron. Yes i will get raped 30kms out from a arty rupture, so I take an ac setup, go in close, zoom around a bit and hope his tank doesn't hold. Ofc these basic tactics don't hold up all the time and I get pwned quite a bit, but its making do with what you got. My pest's dps is vastly below a throns, yet some here arguing amarr weaknesses believe ac dps shouldn't be increased in other threads. So it's ok for one race to do it tough, but for another its whine time when you fit cookie cutter setups against the strongest short range bs in game and come out second best? I'm sorry if you want me to give you ideas on how to innovate, thats your job as an amarr pilot, not mine. Did I mention anything about arma <-> thron? No? Actually I stated in other threads multiple times that the arma<->thron balance is perfectly fine for *base* damage. So why are you using this as example? Because some people are whining about it? Tough luck, they are not me. Also, the huge difference between this and the amarr resistance problem is that the latter is universal. A rupture will kill an equally skilled thorax pilot. I do not think I need to say what happens with a rifter vs a tristan? Amarr face the resistance problems with frigates, with cruisers and with BS. You cannot adapt to an universal situation. If ALL minmatar ships had similar problems vs their gallente (and for good measure caldari) counterparts as an ACpest has vs a blasterthron then you might have a point.
Mahavy Seth
AmarrImperial Academy
Posted - 2006.10.05 11:05:00 -
[2524 ]
Edited by: Mahavy Seth on 05/10/2006 11:09:05 Have you noticed that Tux is answering many post here, but totally ignoring this one? Where is democracy? Some guys on MMORPG.com say that devs are like ****. <--- N . . I Cmon Tux, write a "Amarrs are OK" and put an end to this topic!
Stephar
The High Priest
Posted - 2006.10.05 11:08:00 -
[2525 ]
One of those threads was about the Gallente BC, the other about the Hyperion. Noticing a trend?
Aeco Feife
Posted - 2006.10.05 15:28:00 -
[2526 ]
What about some high-slot mod to trim em resistances? Like a target painter-esque hole-in-EM maker? Or maybe a special T2 crystal that gets to ignore those resistances but with weird debuffs? How about this: dipole crystal that slightly reduces ROF but cuts EM resistance through some formula that trims it down to something useful non-linearly, but not enough to make fitting em hardeners a waste. Turn 80% to 60% or something I know offensive remote resistance reducers were considered and up to now rejected, and for good reason. But IÆm thinking that it might be less unbalancing in this case. Also, the dipole action makes more scientific sense than explosive crystals. Maybe the 100th time something like this has been mentioned, but with approaching 90 pages of this, IÆm not gonna read all that. There you go, Aeco
Tasty Burger
Posted - 2006.10.05 15:32:00 -
[2527 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Edited by: Mahavy Seth on 05/10/2006 11:09:05 Have you noticed that Tux is answering many post here, but totally ignoring this one? Where is democracy? Some guys on MMORPG.com say that devs are like ****. <--- N . . I Cmon Tux, write a "Amarrs are OK" and put an end to this topic! lmao! shut up.
Hellspawn01
AmarrThe Phantom Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.10.05 15:59:00 -
[2528 ]
Originally by: Mahavy Seth Edited by: Mahavy Seth on 05/10/2006 11:09:05 Have you noticed that Tux is answering many post here, but totally ignoring this one? Where is democracy? Some guys on MMORPG.com say that devs are like ****. <--- N . . I Cmon Tux, write a "Amarrs are OK" and put an end to this topic!Linkage You want such a dev to make a post in here?Ship lovers click here
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.05 16:03:00 -
[2529 ]
I guess we can pretend that they are still arguing in CCP over what to do... But at least an update that says "stop spamming the bleeding forums, we are looking into it" would certainly help. Fear is the mind-killer.
Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.05 17:42:00 -
[2530 ]
i am going to go out on a limb and say ccp is working on something on the amarr issue. if they say anything either good or bad for amarr i think the forums will melt now. i havent posted on here in a while. amarr need a fix, but i belive ccp will do the right thing. i am crossing my fingers.
Bellac
Posted - 2006.10.05 17:51:00 -
[2531 ]
Well this whole thing got right up my nose as I had only trained amarr ships and laser turret skills. Even though I had 10s of millions of skill points in these areas I was unable to compete with soemone with a missile boat or projectile skills. I have been away for the summer though and have spent this time redressing the balance in my skills so it doesnt really bother me what they nerf next, I should always be able to be on top with something. From a specialisation point of view though I think this is just wrong. Amarr has always been low on the desire list for most players, and this complete messing up of balance withing weapon and ship types has not helped.
Deschenus Maximus
AmarrIn Articulo Mortis
Posted - 2006.10.05 19:02:00 -
[2532 ]
I had another kinda unusual idea. To fix the whole cap usage issue, perhap lasers could still use as much cap, lose the cap reduction bonus for something better, AND still work better. It's pretty simple: slow the RoF way the **** down, and up the damage. It'd be possible to keep the same DPS if the proper balance between RoF and damage is maintained, but now, cap use becomes much more manageable. And instead of RoF bonus for those ships that have them, give them a damage bonus. Oh, and while some may not share my opinion, I think ALL lenses should be like T2 ammo and run out, but instead of having them wear out at "around a 1000 shots", they should be worth a 100 or so shots THAT YOU CAN SEE (just like you see how many rounds a railgun still has in its ammo hopper). Of course, make lenses on par with hybrid/projectile ammo. This fixes two things: 1)T2 ammo won't cost so bloody much 2) No more cries of "OMG teh Amarr ar teh Uber wit no ammo lol!!!111" FOR THE EMPEROR!The Second NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Claptonius
Posted - 2006.10.05 20:53:00 -
[2533 ]
the way i see it is amarr only really do em and therm dmg, they cant run an effective tank and shoot at the same time, they are very easy to jam (or in my experience they are) and they dont have a great variety of ship types. with the recon ships there is at least the option of drones now open but that is still only 2 ships (3 if you count the arbi) all the other races have at least 2 specialisations to go for in fact gal and cald have 3 but amarr only has armour and lasers.... just some more variation or something ANYTHING would be nice to make playing amarr abit more competative!
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.06 05:27:00 -
[2534 ]
Originally by: Kovacs Caprios Does it really matter, if CCP respond, it is 85 pages.. a lot of the good arguments are lost under rubblish like this person posted.. Unlike the threads concerning the other races where Tux has replied? Quote: The trolling and flaming have made this thread unreadable.. The trolling has all been from Gallente fanboys (madalup)and other 'individuals'. Quote: Does any one read the whole thread, or just the last two pages. There are some good arguments.... there just lost now Being a dev it should be your job to know without having to read all pages. That being said there are people who read all the pages.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.06 10:46:00 -
[2535 ]
As a pure Amarr pilot who recently change to training up caldari - I am shocked at the difference. I mean - if I knew how low sp friendly Caldari are, and how powerful their ships were, I would never have picked amarr to beguin with! ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Hijara
AmarrBrotherhood of Light
Posted - 2006.10.07 05:32:00 -
[2536 ]
I think amarr could use a bonus to make our tanks better. If we becoem the ultimate tankers, that gives us an edge we don't have atm. lazers are supposed to eat cap, the prolem is that we waste a bonus, or 2 JUST making our guns viable, before mods or anything. If amarrian ships had just HIGHER cap to begin with, might that work? Overall however, amarr are pretty ok to me. Maybe no the Uber ship of the month/patch, but not useless.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.07 10:35:00 -
[2537 ]
Originally by: Hijara I think amarr could use a bonus to make our tanks better. If we becoem the ultimate tankers, that gives us an edge we don't have atm. lazers are supposed to eat cap, the prolem is that we waste a bonus, or 2 JUST making our guns viable, before mods or anything. If amarrian ships had just HIGHER cap to begin with, might that work? Overall however, amarr are pretty ok to me. Maybe no the Uber ship of the month/patch, but not useless. something needs to be done about it sooner or later anyway. less and less ppl choose to train up the amarr skilltree from start. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.10.07 13:20:00 -
[2538 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Kovacs Caprios Does it really matter, if CCP respond, it is 85 pages.. a lot of the good arguments are lost under rubblish like this person posted.. Unlike the threads concerning the other races where Tux has replied? Quote: The trolling and flaming have made this thread unreadable.. The trolling has all been from Gallente fanboys (madalup)and other 'individuals'. Quote: Does any one read the whole thread, or just the last two pages. There are some good arguments.... there just lost now Being a dev it should be your job to know without having to read all pages. That being said there are people who read all the pages. Im famous _________________________________________________
Royaldo
KVA Noble Inc. THE H0RDE
Posted - 2006.10.07 15:34:00 -
[2539 ]
all the good points have been raised.... are you blind? theres alot whine in here, but all, yes _ALL_ the numbers you need are in this thread. there is no need for another thread.
Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
Posted - 2006.10.07 15:43:00 -
[2540 ]
Originally by: Royaldo all the good points have been raised.... are you blind? theres alot whine in here, but all, yes _ALL_ the numbers you need are in this thread. there is no need for another thread. He's not blind - he just chooses not to see that there is a problem. Regardless of the variety of proposed fixes - the majority of people who have specialised in flying amarr agree that there is a problem.
Wulfgard
MinmatarThe Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.07 17:12:00 -
[2541 ]
If players had the option of tranfering their skill points, the only amarr ships you would see would be tankminer Apocs and some pilgrims....
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.07 17:34:00 -
[2542 ]
Originally by: Wulfgard If players had the option of tranfering their skill points, the only amarr ships you would see would be tankminer Apocs and some pilgrims.... Very very good point. Not saying this should happen or would happen. But if you could poll each racially specific pilot and ask if they had the option to change their training. Amarr would be the biggest proponent of change. This alone shows the problem. 90% of those still training amarr instead of switching aren't doing it because they think amarr is fine, they do it with Faith that CCP will see the light.
Nir
Posted - 2006.10.07 17:48:00 -
[2543 ]
Edited by: Nir on 07/10/2006 17:49:19 Originally by: Cosmo Raata 90% of those still training amarr instead of switching aren't doing it because they think amarr is fine, they do it with Faith that CCP will see the light.Actually tons and tons of people come into the world of EVE without knowing anything about ship balance, hence you will always see at least a certain amount of people in Amarr ships of all sizes. Ignorance is bliss, after all.. I think this is where the majority of Amarr flyers come from. I think a better gauge of the Amarr situation would be to look for veterans with Amarr skills, that still fly their Amarr ships in PvP today. Not just those who jumped the bandwagon when the Armageddon was FOTM for about 6 months. I see more Amarr characters cross training to Bthons and Dominix than any other race..
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.07 19:41:00 -
[2544 ]
Originally by: Nir Edited by: Nir on 07/10/2006 17:49:19 Originally by: Cosmo Raata 90% of those still training amarr instead of switching aren't doing it because they think amarr is fine, they do it with Faith that CCP will see the light.Actually tons and tons of people come into the world of EVE without knowing anything about ship balance, hence you will always see at least a certain amount of people in Amarr ships of all sizes. Ignorance is bliss, after all.. I think this is where the majority of Amarr flyers come from. I think a better gauge of the Amarr situation would be to look for veterans with Amarr skills, that still fly their Amarr ships in PvP today. Not just those who jumped the bandwagon when the Armageddon was FOTM for about 6 months. I see more Amarr characters cross training to Bthons and Dominix than any other race.. the vets that you see in amarr ships basically all fly geddons/curse/pilgrims/absolutions also, all ships that does work as the rest of amarr's ships indeed isnt working properly Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.07 19:46:00 -
[2545 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Nir Edited by: Nir on 07/10/2006 17:49:19 Originally by: Cosmo Raata 90% of those still training amarr instead of switching aren't doing it because they think amarr is fine, they do it with Faith that CCP will see the light.Actually tons and tons of people come into the world of EVE without knowing anything about ship balance, hence you will always see at least a certain amount of people in Amarr ships of all sizes. Ignorance is bliss, after all.. I think this is where the majority of Amarr flyers come from. I think a better gauge of the Amarr situation would be to look for veterans with Amarr skills, that still fly their Amarr ships in PvP today. Not just those who jumped the bandwagon when the Armageddon was FOTM for about 6 months. I see more Amarr characters cross training to Bthons and Dominix than any other race.. the vets that you see in amarr ships basically all fly geddons/curse/pilgrims/absolutions also, all ships that does work as the rest of amarr's ships indeed isnt working properly You hit the nail on the head. I fly exactly those ships and those ships only. I did use the malediction once this year, but mostly just for getting on killmails with fast lock and a scram.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.07 22:22:00 -
[2546 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Nir Edited by: Nir on 07/10/2006 17:49:19 Originally by: Cosmo Raata 90% of those still training amarr instead of switching aren't doing it because they think amarr is fine, they do it with Faith that CCP will see the light.Actually tons and tons of people come into the world of EVE without knowing anything about ship balance, hence you will always see at least a certain amount of people in Amarr ships of all sizes. Ignorance is bliss, after all.. I think this is where the majority of Amarr flyers come from. I think a better gauge of the Amarr situation would be to look for veterans with Amarr skills, that still fly their Amarr ships in PvP today. Not just those who jumped the bandwagon when the Armageddon was FOTM for about 6 months. I see more Amarr characters cross training to Bthons and Dominix than any other race.. the vets that you see in amarr ships basically all fly geddons/curse/pilgrims/absolutions also, all ships that does work as the rest of amarr's ships indeed isnt working properly You hit the nail on the head. I fly exactly those ships and those ships only. I did use the malediction once this year, but mostly just for getting on killmails with fast lock and a scram. i used to use the crusader as a expensive slightly faster shuttle but thats about it. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.08 08:04:00 -
[2547 ]
Originally by: madaluap Havent you noticed that ammar barely know themselves what is wrong and how to fix it...thats the problem. Some say "noo, not another Tier 3 laserboat.. drones!!" other find that bull****. Some say give more EM and therm damage, other want EM/Therm 50/50. Other want explosive. Than some say lasers have bad damageoutput, which isnt true, EM resistances have increased though. Dont you know? People have different opinions, the backside of free speech. Quote: People want more medslots. but in that case you ruin the ammar tradition, more therm and you get in gallente their way or want armor tanking missile ships. Yes, ruin the tradition of ships with one medslot. Yay! Quote: to end it all some (ammar) people say there is nothing wrong with ammar. Why do you expect anyone to take this whine thread serieus, make a new one with good arguments and numbers and do it the right way This thread has many good arguments, but you coming here with your blatant trolling isnt making it any better.
Sovy Kurosei
AmarrTherianthropic Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.08 08:20:00 -
[2548 ]
Page 86!? Wow. Time for some song and dance: This is the thread that never ends Yes, it goes on and on, my friends Some people started posting in it not knowing what it was, And they'll continue posting in it forever just because—___________________
Mahavy Seth
AmarrImperial Academy
Posted - 2006.10.08 11:22:00 -
[2549 ]
Glory To Amarr!
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.10.08 12:25:00 -
[2550 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 08/10/2006 12:27:05 Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: madaluap Havent you noticed that ammar barely know themselves what is wrong and how to fix it...thats the problem. Some say "noo, not another Tier 3 laserboat.. drones!!" other find that bull****. Some say give more EM and therm damage, other want EM/Therm 50/50. Other want explosive. Than some say lasers have bad damageoutput, which isnt true, EM resistances have increased though. Dont you know? People have different opinions, the backside of free speech. Quote: People want more medslots. but in that case you ruin the ammar tradition, more therm and you get in gallente their way or want armor tanking missile ships. Yes, ruin the tradition of ships with one medslot. Yay! Quote: to end it all some (ammar) people say there is nothing wrong with ammar. Why do you expect anyone to take this whine thread serieus, make a new one with good arguments and numbers and do it the right way This thread has many good arguments, but you coming here with your blatant trolling isnt making it any better. Why was that trolling? I think im stating the obvious, while you are flaming it down with neverending sarcasm... #1 My first point was that the problems are obvious but all the solutions are gamebreaking. #2 I have no respect for people that cant handle some ships being less usefull, but need to train right away into other races. #3 Im not afraid to tell you what most people allready think of this thread. Why do you think no dev posted here? If you want some good solutions think about what ammar should be about. Imo: -Hard hitting lasers (gankships) -Superheavy armor tankers, and i mean heavy. -More raw dps than minmatar, less than gallente -Must have the ability to use there optimalrange to there advantage -Use great ammounts of cap, but also generate great ammounts I know that closerange ships own the armageddon and apoc atm. I you want a serieus boost make clear that a apoc should nearly outtank the damage of a gankship. Also ask for a review of the ranges a ship uses. Armageddon should have the option of firing @ 25-30k with megapulse 2 and keep predicting range. Shipsized scramblers are necesary than, lets say 2000pg -1 point and 40k range. See this . You can understand though that being outdamaged isnt bad, it is when there is nothing making up for that (supertank, superecm). I know that atm nos kills ammar tankability and ecm ruins things more. But if you want a proper solution, dont ask for stuff like: -Explosive crystals -EM/Therm swap -Lower capusage on guns -Say that build in damage is useless, but than start whining that capusage is to big on tier3 bs (no capuse bonus) -Include RL physics as argument (serieusly dont..) Ask for: -50% EM resistance nerf on all adaptive plating (making increase 10% instead of 20% (not including skills). -PG reduction on certain weapontypes -Point out the broken ships (example: omen) And in generaly start discussing stuff make a conclusion and put that into a new thread featuring numbers, graphics and comparisons. Make sure most people agree on these changes so you will get mostly /signed in your thread. People tell me to read the thread, but i have read it and after page 20ish its all over. _________________________________________________
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.08 13:53:00 -
[2551 ]
Originally by: madulsomething Why was that trolling? I think im stating the obvious, while you are flaming it down with neverending sarcasm... #1 My first point was that the problems are obvious but all the solutions are gamebreaking. #2 I have no respect for people that cant handle some ships being less usefull, but need to train right away into other races. #3 Im not afraid to tell you what most people allready think of this thread. Why do you think no dev posted here? If you want some good solutions think about what ammar should be about. Imo: -Hard hitting lasers (gankships) -Superheavy armor tankers, and i mean heavy. -More raw dps than minmatar, less than gallente -Must have the ability to use there optimalrange to there advantage -Use great ammounts of cap, but also generate great ammounts I know that closerange ships own the armageddon and apoc atm. I you want a serieus boost make clear that a apoc should nearly outtank the damage of a gankship. Also ask for a review of the ranges a ship uses. Armageddon should have the option of firing @ 25-30k with megapulse 2 and keep predicting range. Shipsized scramblers are necesary than, lets say 2000pg -1 point and 40k range. See this. You can understand though that being outdamaged isnt bad, it is when there is nothing making up for that (supertank, superecm). I know that atm nos kills ammar tankability and ecm ruins things more. But if you want a proper solution, dont ask for stuff like: -Explosive crystals -EM/Therm swap -Lower capusage on guns -Say that build in damage is useless, but than start whining that capusage is to big on tier3 bs (no capuse bonus) -Include RL physics as argument (serieusly dont..) Ask for: -50% EM resistance nerf on all adaptive plating (making increase 10% instead of 20% (not including skills). -PG reduction on certain weapontypes -Point out the broken ships (example: omen) And in generaly start discussing stuff make a conclusion and put that into a new thread featuring numbers, graphics and comparisons. Make sure most people agree on these changes so you will get mostly /signed in your thread. People tell me to read the thread, but i have read it and after page 20ish its all over. Good post from the hippie-looking Gallentian. But, while I agree that there is alot of crap in the thread, I still think keeping it on the front page is a good thing. Just to remind people that we're here, we're not as ***** as Gallente but we're still not going away. Originally by: manduwhatever #2 I have no respect for people that cant handle some ships being less usefull, but need to train right away into other races. double qft - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Mr Peanut
The New Empire R i s e
Posted - 2006.10.08 16:27:00 -
[2552 ]
Originally by: Dixon Originally by: madulsomething Why was that trolling? I think im stating the obvious, while you are flaming it down with neverending sarcasm... #1 My first point was that the problems are obvious but all the solutions are gamebreaking. #2 I have no respect for people that cant handle some ships being less usefull, but need to train right away into other races. #3 Im not afraid to tell you what most people allready think of this thread. Why do you think no dev posted here? If you want some good solutions think about what ammar should be about. Imo: -Hard hitting lasers (gankships) -Superheavy armor tankers, and i mean heavy. -More raw dps than minmatar, less than gallente -Must have the ability to use there optimalrange to there advantage -Use great ammounts of cap, but also generate great ammounts I know that closerange ships own the armageddon and apoc atm. I you want a serieus boost make clear that a apoc should nearly outtank the damage of a gankship. Also ask for a review of the ranges a ship uses. Armageddon should have the option of firing @ 25-30k with megapulse 2 and keep predicting range. Shipsized scramblers are necesary than, lets say 2000pg -1 point and 40k range. See this. You can understand though that being outdamaged isnt bad, it is when there is nothing making up for that (supertank, superecm). I know that atm nos kills ammar tankability and ecm ruins things more. But if you want a proper solution, dont ask for stuff like: -Explosive crystals -EM/Therm swap -Lower capusage on guns -Say that build in damage is useless, but than start whining that capusage is to big on tier3 bs (no capuse bonus) -Include RL physics as argument (serieusly dont..) Ask for: -50% EM resistance nerf on all adaptive plating (making increase 10% instead of 20% (not including skills). -PG reduction on certain weapontypes -Point out the broken ships (example: omen) And in generaly start discussing stuff make a conclusion and put that into a new thread featuring numbers, graphics and comparisons. Make sure most people agree on these changes so you will get mostly /signed in your thread. People tell me to read the thread, but i have read it and after page 20ish its all over. Good post from the hippie-looking Gallentian. But, while I agree that there is alot of crap in the thread, I still think keeping it on the front page is a good thing. Just to remind people that we're here, we're not as ***** as Gallente but we're still not going away. Originally by: manduwhatever #2 I have no respect for people that cant handle some ships being less usefull, but need to train right away into other races. double qft This thread might have a lot of crap, but it is also a goldmine of good graphs, stats, and ideas. Just read through it a little. You'll see.
Dixon
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.08 16:35:00 -
[2553 ]
Quote: This thread might have a lot of crap, but it is also a goldmine of good graphs, stats, and ideas. Just read through it a little. You'll see. I know, I even posted stats on EANM effect on laser damage myself a few pages back. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.10.08 16:38:00 -
[2554 ]
i hate this thread...
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.08 16:53:00 -
[2555 ]
Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 08/10/2006 12:27:05 Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: madaluap Havent you noticed that ammar barely know themselves what is wrong and how to fix it...thats the problem. Some say "noo, not another Tier 3 laserboat.. drones!!" other find that bull****. Some say give more EM and therm damage, other want EM/Therm 50/50. Other want explosive. Than some say lasers have bad damageoutput, which isnt true, EM resistances have increased though. Dont you know? People have different opinions, the backside of free speech. Quote: People want more medslots. but in that case you ruin the ammar tradition, more therm and you get in gallente their way or want armor tanking missile ships. Yes, ruin the tradition of ships with one medslot. Yay! Quote: to end it all some (ammar) people say there is nothing wrong with ammar. Why do you expect anyone to take this whine thread serieus, make a new one with good arguments and numbers and do it the right way This thread has many good arguments, but you coming here with your blatant trolling isnt making it any better. Why was that trolling? I think im stating the obvious, while you are flaming it down with neverending sarcasm... #1 My first point was that the problems are obvious but all the solutions are gamebreaking. #2 I have no respect for people that cant handle some ships being less usefull, but need to train right away into other races. #3 Im not afraid to tell you what most people allready think of this thread. Why do you think no dev posted here? If you want some good solutions think about what ammar should be about. Imo: -Hard hitting lasers (gankships) -Superheavy armor tankers, and i mean heavy. -More raw dps than minmatar, less than gallente -Must have the ability to use there optimalrange to there advantage -Use great ammounts of cap, but also generate great ammounts I know that closerange ships own the armageddon and apoc atm. I you want a serieus boost make clear that a apoc should nearly outtank the damage of a gankship. Also ask for a review of the ranges a ship uses. Armageddon should have the option of firing @ 25-30k with megapulse 2 and keep predicting range. Shipsized scramblers are necesary than, lets say 2000pg -1 point and 40k range. See this . You can understand though that being outdamaged isnt bad, it is when there is nothing making up for that (supertank, superecm). I know that atm nos kills ammar tankability and ecm ruins things more. But if you want a proper solution, dont ask for stuff like: -Explosive crystals -EM/Therm swap -Lower capusage on guns -Say that build in damage is useless, but than start whining that capusage is to big on tier3 bs (no capuse bonus) -Include RL physics as argument (serieusly dont..) Ask for: -50% EM resistance nerf on all adaptive plating (making increase 10% instead of 20% (not including skills). -PG reduction on certain weapontypes -Point out the broken ships (example: omen) And in generaly start discussing stuff make a conclusion and put that into a new thread featuring numbers, graphics and comparisons. Make sure most people agree on these changes so you will get mostly /signed in your thread. People tell me to read the thread, but i have read it and after page 20ish its all over. You're still off base, but can't blame you, you're biased. Now if you find a middle ground between what you're posting and what we want, you'd be a lot close to a real fix. CCP isn't going to make 40km scrams, as thats not a race specific fix, its a way of getting something everyone would want and calling it an amarr fix. Explain why you think Amarr should do less damage than Gallante, cause thats a joke right there. We have less meds to use ew, therefore gank/tank should be our forte. tbc......
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.08 17:10:00 -
[2556 ]
These are my arguments and always will be. 1) Reduce cap across the board as if everyone had their ships trained to level 5. Then remove the cap bonus from each ship and replace it with a fair bonus. Don't believe this is a problem? Here's the proof. Curse/Pilgrim>other t2 ships>t1 ships. Reason being? curse/pilgrim get 100% of their bonuses to making the ship better, t2 get 75% and t1 get only 50%. Throw in the bhaalgorn and nightmare, they get 66.67% of their bonuses. Until CCP does this, we'll always be unbalanced. 2) Beam changes across the board....reduced fittings, increased damage/alpha strike. Cap is fine if 1st idea is implemented. 3) Re-balance of damage or fix of em damage on all ships in game. One seems a lot easier to do than the other. TBH, I have no idea why EM is our primary damage type. Lasers do thermal damage, EM damage on a laser is just plain stupid. But this is the 3rd fix for a reason, if the first 2 ideas are implemented, this can be left alone and we'd be fine. 4) Only reason this is #4 is because apparently ccp is doing it anyways. Change Apoc, make it our tanker. I'd say remove 1 high slot or turret point, remove 1 low, add 2 meds. Add rep or resistance bonus. Increase Sensor Strength. This becomes our optional tanker. I've been playing over 3 years and have flown Amarr the whole time. I've seen what CCP's nerfs/boosts have done. Our role used to be gank/tank....We could do one or the other, but EW was non-existance during that time...if it had existed then Amarr would have been left alone. This Role needs to come back. Madaluap, You have very flawed logic when it comes to what Amarr should get. Post a reply if you'd like, I'll give you a rebuttle and prove you wrong each time. In end, I've come to my decision...I will ride out Amarr until a few months after Kali 3, seeing that CCP may have plans but are too preoccupied with Kali. If nothing has been said or changed, I'll quit Eve. Which means probably another 10-15 people/accounts will quit with me. I'm not threatening, I'm sharing my intentions. And no, not a soul will get any of my stuff. It will sit and rot. Anyways, Need to also mention how ****ed I was to see Tuxford reply to a gallante pilot less than an hour after he posted. He wanted to know what the new bonus to the hyperion would be, Tuxford couldn't hold back. Its very obvious to me that Tuxford & co. are more concerned about what affect them as players, rather than what affects Gameplay. BRING BACK TOMB.
Lady Loom
Though The Darkness Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.08 19:27:00 -
[2557 ]
Originally by: madaluap Why was that trolling? I think im stating the obvious, while you are flaming it down with neverending sarcasm... you've done your fair share of trolling in here, you're also not stating the obvious as you're clearly biased and feel threatened by the idea that Amarr ships could be reworked Quote: #1 My first point was that the problems are obvious but all the solutions are gamebreaking. not all of them are but for that you had to actually read more than two pages and pick the least thought-through ideas to flame Quote: #2 I have no respect for people that cant handle some ships being less usefull, but need to train right away into other races. there's a difference between "less useful in certain situations" and "generally inferior". Every race has ships that about suck but most of the time you have the option to get another ship of the same class and be fine. If my options for flying a good Amarr ship are limited to one cruiser, two recons, and 1-2 other ships/hulls that's not "some ships less useful" it's a whole goddamn race that needs looking at Quote: #3 Im not afraid to tell you what most people allready think of this thread. Why do you think no dev posted here? do you honestly think they only post in threads they deem most worthy of a reply? They post in those which are easiest to respond to, like "fix ship X". If anything they don't post here (I hope) because Amarr issues aren't fixed by just 1-2 simple measures, and because it's a whole race that needs rebalancing instead of single ships/modules Quote: If you want some good solutions think about what ammar should be about. Imo: [...] -More raw dps than minmatar, less than gallente didn't see that coming... Quote: [...] -Use great ammounts of cap, but also generate great ammounts what's with that cap fetish? why can't lasers simply have comparable energy use to NOT need ship bonuses to work? Quote: [some almost good points cut due to character limit] But if you want a proper solution, dont ask for stuff like: -Explosive crystals -EM/Therm swap -Lower capusage on guns -Say that build in damage is useless, but than start whining that capusage is to big on tier3 bs (no capuse bonus) -Include RL physics as argument (serieusly dont..) why not? why can EM projectiles and missiles work but not laser crystals? it's not like it's inherently impossible to balance explosive crystals, or ones that do more thermal damage than EM. The main issue is that certain people oppose such suggestions as they don't want to lose their I-WIN buttons... Again, why the cap use? That would only make sense if lasers did overwhelming damage, which they clearly don't and shouldn't Quote: Ask for: -50% EM resistance nerf on all adaptive plating (making increase 10% instead of 20% (not including skills). -PG reduction on certain weapontypes -Point out the broken ships (example: omen) And in generaly start discussing stuff make a conclusion and put that into a new thread featuring numbers, graphics and comparisons. Make sure most people agree on these changes so you will get mostly /signed in your thread. People tell me to read the thread, but i have read it and after page 20ish its all over. in this case I can't but say your reading comprehension clearly sucks major donkey balls [power corrupts, absolute power is kind of neat]
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.08 19:42:00 -
[2558 ]
madaluap - Overall I agree with your post, but... Originally by: madaluap ... If you want some good solutions think about what ammar should be about. Imo: -Use great ammounts of cap, but also generate great ammounts ... But if you want a proper solution, dont ask for stuff like: -Lower capusage on guns ... Lasers should never use less cap than hybrids, I agree here, but one problem is that "generate great amounts of cap" (meaning: higher cap recharge rates than other races ships) is only true for few amarr ships. It's the exeption, not the rule. In order for this to happen the cap recharge time of many amarr ships would have to be lowered - which in turn would be an bigger boost than reducing the capuse of lasers.
Oedus Caro
Posted - 2006.10.08 20:27:00 -
[2559 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata 3) Re-balance of damage or fix of em damage on all ships in game. One seems a lot easier to do than the other. TBH, I have no idea why EM is our primary damage type. Lasers do thermal damage, EM damage on a laser is just plain stupid. But this is the 3rd fix for a reason, if the first 2 ideas are implemented, this can be left alone and we'd be fine. I have no desire to get into this whole debate, since I do not PVP and therefore am not really affected by the alleged imbalance from which Amarr ships suffer. However, the above passage caught my attention, as I have an interest in seeing "realistic" gameplay, and what you wrote seems far removed from anything realistic. Please tell me, why is it "just plain stupid" that a laser should do EM damage? If a beam of light should not cause light damage, exactly what sort of weapon do you think should? Of course I may have misunderstood your point. Perhaps your argument was not that a laser shouldn't cause EM damage, but that the concept of EM damage is itself flawed - in which case I wholy agree with you. If anything regarding Amarrian combat deserves to be called stupid I think it is the distinction between EM and Thermal damage types. EM radiation does not in and of itself cause any damage - rather it transmits energy to whatever object happens to absorb the radiation, and this absorbed energy manifests itself as heat. This is obviously true for any EM weapon - be it an Amarrian laser, a Caldari missile, etc. so one might rightly argue that EM damage should be removed from the game altogether. That would leave Amarr with only one damage type, however, and I'm sure most people will agree that wouldn't be good. But the argument that EM should not really be a damage type isn't the whole story with regard to lasers. Although it is massless, light does transmit momentum , so if you imagine a sufficiently intense beam it is conceivable that it should also do Kinetic damage - yes, Kinetic. True, there may not be any solid moving object to which one can ascribe the effect, but a sufficiently high impulse will have the same effect (think interstellar travel using solar sails , but on steroids). Like I wrote at the beginning of this post, I don't really care about the whole debate concerning Amarr. I would, however, like to see CCP stick to simple physics when imagining more advanced forms of real-world technology - e.g. lasers. Without having to equip any kind of special crystal, lasers should do a small amount of Kinetic damage, and all other damage should be Thermal. EM "damage" should be dropped from the game entirely.
Megadon
CaldariDeep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.08 20:39:00 -
[2560 ]
I think with the ongoing changes to the other races the Amarr got left in the dust. The Geddon should be a capable close in tackler/damage dealer similar to what a megathron can do close in, but its a joke.
Shin Ra
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2006.10.08 21:31:00 -
[2561 ]
Edited by: Shin Ra on 08/10/2006 21:31:46 Originally by: Megadon I think with the ongoing changes to the other races the Amarr got left in the dust. The Geddon should be a capable close in tackler/damage dealer similar to what a megathron can do close in, but its a joke. Won't the tier 3 bs be kind of in that role. DMG bonus + tanking bonus but cap issues. Short duration good dmg, good tank. p.s w00t I'm in the amarr thread.
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.08 21:31:00 -
[2562 ]
Originally by: Oedus Caro Originally by: Cosmo Raata 3) Re-balance of damage or fix of em damage on all ships in game. One seems a lot easier to do than the other. TBH, I have no idea why EM is our primary damage type. Lasers do thermal damage, EM damage on a laser is just plain stupid. But this is the 3rd fix for a reason, if the first 2 ideas are implemented, this can be left alone and we'd be fine. I have no desire to get into this whole debate, since I do not PVP and therefore am not really affected by the alleged imbalance from which Amarr ships suffer. However, the above passage caught my attention, as I have an interest in seeing "realistic" gameplay, and what you wrote seems far removed from anything realistic. Please tell me, why is it "just plain stupid" that a laser should do EM damage? If a beam of light should not cause light damage, exactly what sort of weapon do you think should? Of course I may have misunderstood your point. Perhaps your argument was not that a laser shouldn't cause EM damage, but that the concept of EM damage is itself flawed - in which case I wholy agree with you. If anything regarding Amarrian combat deserves to be called stupid I think it is the distinction between EM and Thermal damage types. EM radiation does not in and of itself cause any damage - rather it transmits energy to whatever object happens to absorb the radiation, and this absorbed energy manifests itself as heat. This is obviously true for any EM weapon - be it an Amarrian laser, a Caldari missile, etc. so one might rightly argue that EM damage should be removed from the game altogether. That would leave Amarr with only one damage type, however, and I'm sure most people will agree that wouldn't be good. But the argument that EM should not really be a damage type isn't the whole story with regard to lasers. Although it is massless, light does transmit momentum , so if you imagine a sufficiently intense beam it is conceivable that it should also do Kinetic damage - yes, Kinetic. True, there may not be any solid moving object to which one can ascribe the effect, but a sufficiently high impulse will have the same effect (think interstellar travel using solar sails , but on steroids). Like I wrote at the beginning of this post, I don't really care about the whole debate concerning Amarr. I would, however, like to see CCP stick to simple physics when imagining more advanced forms of real-world technology - e.g. lasers. Without having to equip any kind of special crystal, lasers should do a small amount of Kinetic damage, and all other damage should be Thermal. EM "damage" should be dropped from the game entirely. It was an argument that Thermal is the more obvious damage type a laser should do, I think Thermal should be primary and EM secondary. Hybrid Ammo should be EM or Kinetic primary with Thermal secondary.
xlop
GallenteYes no maybe - i dont know
Posted - 2006.10.08 21:33:00 -
[2563 ]
armor should just loose 10% EM resistance and add 10% explosive resistance -- Imperial College London FTW --
Tassi
Infinitus Odium
Posted - 2006.10.08 21:35:00 -
[2564 ]
Originally by: Shin Ra Edited by: Shin Ra on 08/10/2006 21:31:46 Originally by: Megadon I think with the ongoing changes to the other races the Amarr got left in the dust. The Geddon should be a capable close in tackler/damage dealer similar to what a megathron can do close in, but its a joke. Won't the tier 3 bs be kind of in that role. DMG bonus + tanking bonus but cap issues. Short duration good dmg, good tank. p.s w00t I'm in the amarr thread. Problem is that amarr have no "hunter" battleship. The abaddon won't be a solo hunting ship either because its not fast and can't run tank + gank like the megathron can. It will still rock in its role, "stationary" high damage with massive hitpoints. It will just be a better geddon
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.08 22:44:00 -
[2565 ]
Originally by: Tassi Problem is that amarr have no "hunter" battleship. The abaddon won't be a solo hunting ship either because its not fast and can't run tank + gank like the megathron can. It will still rock in its role, "stationary" high damage with massive hitpoints. It will just be a better geddon I am trying to think of a situation where the Abaddon + gank outganks a rokh, due to the rokh's longer optimal meaning better ammo at lower ranges as well as the EANMII issue? Or how the Abaddom with 5% aromour resist tank better than Rokh's shield 5% resist? Seems like the abaddon fails on both counts. Unless you turn the abadon into a EM torp boat - Give it 8 unbonused launchers, but a 10% EM damage bonus per level - Make EM damage a non joke - If station ultima can make people Fear EM damage, then a Torp Abaddon can do the same as well! ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.08 23:14:00 -
[2566 ]
Boost the Apoc, make it the tier3 bs, then make the Abaddon the torp thing. The ultimate Amarr BS however CANNOT be a missile ship. Tbh the Abaddon certainly does look the part. Or make the Khanid Navy Abaddon into a torp ship and make the Khanid as they should be - armor tanked missile boats. Tbh if you want to balance Amarr, make them able to sit and tank yet still unload pain. The abaddon needs to be designed to be able to fit a cap injector, 3 heatsinks, a dual repper tank, and a rack of megabeams IMO. Include extra cpu so it can fit 1-2 tracking computers. Then it can be the ultimate tank boat with the dual repper, eanmII, damage control, 3x active hardener tank that can still decently shoot back, or a more moderate tank with those three slots swapped with heatsinks act as a medium range gank boat. Balance it by making it move like a brick. It should not however require engineering mods in the lows unless it upgrades the topslots to tachs. A healthy dronebay would not hurt either, but even just the 75m3 would be acceptable. Or, yeah, make the Apoc able to do this and upgrade it to the Tier3 by giving it the 8th lowslot and upping its PG and CPU somewhat, and make the Abaddon the tanked missile boat Tier2. Then the Abaddon would have a special cool use, after all, the gallente are getting the uber blasterboat, the Matari are getting the 8-turret slot BS, and the Caldari are getting their wtfsniper rail boat (which is what this whole tier3 battleship thing is really about, lets be honest.) Fear is the mind-killer.
Cuckoo
Posted - 2006.10.09 00:16:00 -
[2567 ]
bump
Waagaa Ktlehr
AmarrBody Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.10.09 01:00:00 -
[2568 ]
Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 09/10/2006 00:59:51 Originally by: Lord WarATron If station ultima can make people Fear EM damage, then a Torp Abaddon can do the same as well! Funny thing is, the Sansha's know Amarr is crap at the moment. Station Ultima's gun is mainly EX damage, not EM. - - One ship to jam them all, one ship to damp them. One ship to suck them dry and in the dark void gank them.
Crimsonjade
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.09 05:31:00 -
[2569 ]
Originally by: Malken can we get our explosive crystals soon? no. why we need so many pages to say a 2 letter word ill never figure outtouch me... you wanna ......
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
Posted - 2006.10.09 07:10:00 -
[2570 ]
Wow, 87 pages and still silence from the Devs. It's becoming blatantly apparent that the non response is a response all it's own. Too bad becuase Eve is an increadiable game, and for a time felt like one where the devs cared about everyone. A moment of silence in memory of Tux, the only one that seems to have given a hoot for us Amarrians. Bring back Tux, or give us someone who will at least acknoweldge that Amarr players exist. Aimez- "oh ****, this is empire......." Thanks for the loot, and next time you go out to pirate, carry more tech 2 plz =)
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.09 08:47:00 -
[2571 ]
Originally by: Madcat Adams Wow, 87 pages and still silence from the Devs. It's becoming blatantly apparent that the non response is a response all it's own. Too bad becuase Eve is an increadiable game, and for a time felt like one where the devs cared about everyone. A moment of silence in memory of Tux, the only one that seems to have given a hoot for us Amarrians. Bring back Tux, or give us someone who will at least acknoweldge that Amarr players exist. Since Amarr ships are made via slave labour, I guess you get what you pay for... ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
General Apocalypse
AmarrAmarr Task Force
Posted - 2006.10.09 09:00:00 -
[2572 ]
Edited by: General Apocalypse on 09/10/2006 09:01:29 Ok after a lot of thinking here's the solution i came up whit. The only change that woud be REALY blanced is a bonus change. Changing the 50% laser bonus to a 5% resist and cuting down the laser cap usage by 50% IS imo the way to go. Why ? It's not I win transformation but a decent boost. The ships that already have the 5% bonus shoud recive a 7.5% taking bonus which is not big boost but it woud help. This way newbs can fly amarr whidout going to pvp and be pwned by another race instantly. It's a bonus that fits the Amarr storyline and woud make most if not all Amarr ships viable in pvp . Opinions ? ----------------------- Amarr Invictus
Kitana Bane
Posted - 2006.10.09 09:24:00 -
[2573 ]
Originally by: General Apocalypse Edited by: General Apocalypse on 09/10/2006 09:01:29 Ok after a lot of thinking here's the solution i came up whit. The only change that woud be REALY blanced is a bonus change. Changing the 50% laser bonus to a 5% resist and cuting down the laser cap usage by 50% IS imo the way to go. Why ? It's not I win transformation but a decent boost. The ships that already have the 5% bonus shoud recive a 7.5% taking bonus which is not big boost but it woud help. This way newbs can fly amarr whidout going to pvp and be pwned by another race instantly. It's a bonus that fits the Amarr storyline and woud make most if not all Amarr ships viable in pvp . Opinions ? Sounds good. That way the lower DPS would be compensated with more armor and cap would not be a problem. Simple, balanced - has my vote.
AlexMarketAlt
Posted - 2006.10.09 09:42:00 -
[2574 ]
Originally by: General Apocalypse Edited by: General Apocalypse on 09/10/2006 09:01:29 Ok after a lot of thinking here's the solution i came up whit. The only change that woud be REALY blanced is a bonus change. Changing the 50% laser bonus to a 5% resist and cuting down the laser cap usage by 50% IS imo the way to go. Why ? It's not I win transformation but a decent boost. The ships that already have the 5% bonus shoud recive a 7.5% taking bonus which is not big boost but it woud help. This way newbs can fly amarr whidout going to pvp and be pwned by another race instantly. It's a bonus that fits the Amarr storyline and woud make most if not all Amarr ships viable in pvp . Opinions ? No laser related bonus = no reason to fit lasers.
Kitana Bane
Posted - 2006.10.09 10:06:00 -
[2575 ]
One crisis at a time please.
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.09 10:55:00 -
[2576 ]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 09/10/2006 11:00:01 Originally by: Cosmo Raata You're still off base, but can't blame you, you're biased. Now if you find a middle ground between what you're posting and what we want, you'd be a lot close to a real fix. LoL great arguement... well I say your biased since you fly them. You find the middle ground and not "WE WANT THIS! GIVE IT US!", the fact you view the middle ground as being acceptable between what Mad' posted and what you want shows the you ask to much. Originally by: Cosmo Raata Explain why you think Amarr should do less damage than Gallante, cause thats a joke right there. We have less meds to use ew, therefore gank/tank should be our forte. tbc...... Because with the modules that affect DPS/Tanks (ECM, NOS ect) plus whatever other nerfs happen we are getting closer to best DPS / Tank = win... So no wonder you want Amarr to be best at both... yes cos you are so unbiased in your arguement... I suggest its you who needs to find more of a middle ground. Originally by: Lady Loom Quote: If you want some good solutions think about what ammar should be about. Imo: ... -More raw dps than minmatar, less than gallente ... didn't see that coming... Because Blaster damage is close range (with T1 ammo, t2 ranged ammo is a seperate problem) while laser damage is greater range, do you not see the problem having longest range and highest damage weapons? ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.09 12:06:00 -
[2577 ]
Originally by: Lady Loom do you honestly think they only post in threads they deem most worthy of a reply? They post in those which are easiest to respond to, like "fix ship X". If anything they don't post here (I hope) because Amarr issues aren't fixed by just 1-2 simple measures, and because it's a whole race that needs rebalancing instead of single ships/modules How hard would it be for a Dev to post something on the lines of "We are aware that there are some rebalancing issues with Amarr, especially following the passive tanking changes. And indeed with the Khanid ship concept. But these are not trivial issues so please don't expect any simple fixes in the near-term. But do keep the ideas coming - we are listening." Apparently too hard alas.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.09 12:19:00 -
[2578 ]
Originally by: Ituralde Boost the Apoc, make it the tier3 bs, then make the Abaddon the torp thing. The ultimate Amarr BS however CANNOT be a missile ship. Tbh the Abaddon certainly does look the part. Or make the Khanid Navy Abaddon into a torp ship and make the Khanid as they should be - armor tanked missile boats. Tbh if you want to balance Amarr, make them able to sit and tank yet still unload pain. The abaddon needs to be designed to be able to fit a cap injector, 3 heatsinks, a dual repper tank, and a rack of megabeams IMO. Include extra cpu so it can fit 1-2 tracking computers. Then it can be the ultimate tank boat with the dual repper, eanmII, damage control, 3x active hardener tank that can still decently shoot back, or a more moderate tank with those three slots swapped with heatsinks act as a medium range gank boat. Balance it by making it move like a brick. It should not however require engineering mods in the lows unless it upgrades the topslots to tachs. A healthy dronebay would not hurt either, but even just the 75m3 would be acceptable. Or, yeah, make the Apoc able to do this and upgrade it to the Tier3 by giving it the 8th lowslot and upping its PG and CPU somewhat, and make the Abaddon the tanked missile boat Tier2. Then the Abaddon would have a special cool use, after all, the gallente are getting the uber blasterboat, the Matari are getting the 8-turret slot BS, and the Caldari are getting their wtfsniper rail boat (which is what this whole tier3 battleship thing is really about, lets be honest.) As much as I would like the apoc to be changed - Nothing drastic will happen with the apoc for fear of upsetting its current users, as well as the issues of what happens to a prefitted apoc?. This leaves only the Abaddon that can be looked at, and I know that for a fact that it is going to become a useless turret boat that is sub par to a rokh in both gank and tank, and I fail to see its role. If it were to become a EM Torp boat - then people would actually be afraid of it, and lets be honest - T2 Torps + good missiles skills take only a month or so, so its not much of a timesink for people either. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.09 15:24:00 -
[2579 ]
RAISE, LAZARUS! *cough* Sorry, I am normally not doing this, but this was a special case.
Angelic Resolution
The Arcanum
Posted - 2006.10.09 16:09:00 -
[2580 ]
What would be good is the dmg mod on all lasers to be increased by 2.8 :D
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.10.09 16:21:00 -
[2581 ]
if changes were made to any ships, pre fitted ships will simply not be allowed to undock if the fitting has a greater pg/cpu than the ship. so the devs arnt concerned with this, imo its quite hard to find balance, any change made to amarr even just a slight cap boost on the ships say 5% could theoretically give them an edge (as unrealistic as this example is) and the world of 90% of game flying cal/gall would come crashing down. The only changes that will work are extremly well thought out and very well tested ones. i think caution in this matter is the way to go, but at the same time im still quite %^&**&$# ))(*&^&*(*(&^%^%^%^%^%^*(^&*()&)) about how they overnerfed amarr to begin w/. take a mile and give back an inch only when the whole community is up in arms... sigh
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.09 17:15:00 -
[2582 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 09/10/2006 11:00:01 Originally by: Cosmo Raata You're still off base, but can't blame you, you're biased. Now if you find a middle ground between what you're posting and what we want, you'd be a lot close to a real fix. LoL great arguement... well I say your biased since you fly them. You find the middle ground and not "WE WANT THIS! GIVE IT US!", the fact you view the middle ground as being acceptable between what Mad' posted and what you want shows the you ask to much. Originally by: Cosmo Raata Explain why you think Amarr should do less damage than Gallante, cause thats a joke right there. We have less meds to use ew, therefore gank/tank should be our forte. tbc...... Because with the modules that affect DPS/Tanks (ECM, NOS ect) plus whatever other nerfs happen we are getting closer to best DPS / Tank = win... So no wonder you want Amarr to be best at both... yes cos you are so unbiased in your arguement... I suggest its you who needs to find more of a middle ground. Originally by: Lady Loom Quote: If you want some good solutions think about what ammar should be about. Imo: ... -More raw dps than minmatar, less than gallente ... didn't see that coming... Because Blaster damage is close range (with T1 ammo, t2 ranged ammo is a seperate problem) while laser damage is greater range, do you not see the problem having longest range and highest damage weapons? When i speak of "We" I'm talking about all the demands from Amarr pilots, even the ridiculous ones. Honestly the ideas that I've posted are very reasonable. Lets see, Do you really think CCP is nerfing webs, dampenders, tracking disrupters, ECCM's, Scrams, Cap Boosters, Afterburners, MWD's and Target Painters? You gave one example of a med slot being possibly nerfed....which is ECM, Nos is High. So please, do everyone a favor and delete your very uninformed alt post.
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.09 18:05:00 -
[2583 ]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 09/10/2006 18:09:26 Originally by: Cosmo Raata When i speak of "We" I'm talking about all the demands from Amarr pilots, even the ridiculous ones. Honestly the ideas that I've posted are very reasonable. Lets see, Do you really think CCP is nerfing webs, dampenders, tracking disrupters, ECCM's, Scrams, Cap Boosters, Afterburners, MWD's and Target Painters? You gave one example of a med slot being possibly nerfed....which is ECM, Nos is High. So please, do everyone a favor and delete your very uninformed alt post. WTF are you talking about? I mention the two modules that are confirmed to be looked at towards reducing there effect and "whatever changes happen in future" meaning after ECM/NOS we'll see what everyone whines about and gets nerfed... I never said anywhere that web, tp, ab ect are getting nerfed. How is that uninformed? I never said mid slots so why make a point about the only mid slot I mentioned being ECM? Because Amarr have low number of mids? I guess that means all mids are for reducing dps/tanks, oh look shield tanking.... so with your suggestion of Amarr being kings of gank/tank, that means any shield tankers who can't reduce the dps (EW in mids) and tank the damage (oh look mids again) of amarr while trying to break the "kings of gank/tank" armour tank are screwed. A very "reasonable idea" to make shield tanking absolutly pointless, there are unforseen conciquences of most ideas, even if they sound reasonable at first. And another great arguement of "uninformed" to add to your "your biased". Please make your posts clearer and not just random ranting with put downs instead of real points ignoring the main points of my posts. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.09 18:12:00 -
[2584 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Originally by: Cosmo Raata When i speak of "We" I'm talking about all the demands from Amarr pilots, even the ridiculous ones. Honestly the ideas that I've posted are very reasonable. Lets see, Do you really think CCP is nerfing webs, dampenders, tracking disrupters, ECCM's, Scrams, Cap Boosters, Afterburners, MWD's and Target Painters? You gave one example of a med slot being possibly nerfed....which is ECM, Nos is High. So please, do everyone a favor and delete your very uninformed alt post. WTF are you talking about? I mention the two modules that are confirmed to be looked at towards reducing there effect and "whatever changes happen in future" meaning after ECM/NOS we'll see what everyone whines about and gets nerfed... I never said anywhere that web, tp, ab ect are getting nerfed. How is that uninformed? I never said mid slots so why make a point about the only mid slot I mentioned being ECM? Because Amarr have low number of mids? I guess that means all mids are for reducing dps/tanks, oh look shield tanking.... so with Amarr being kings of gank/tank any shild tankers who can't reduce the dps of amarr are screwed. And another great arguement of "uninformed" to add to your "your biased". Please make your posts clearer and not just random ranting with put downs instead of real points ignoring the main points of my posts. you are even more "misinformed" then you think. the only ships that has a good use of NOS is the curse and the pilgrims. we are not asking for any boost of those, infact we will get a nerf to those modules. making 2 of the 4 usable amarr ships worse then they are now. what do we have left?, yeah the geddon i dont think anybody claimed that the geddon needed a huge boost of any kind. and the geddon only has 3 mids and lower sensor strenght then a merlin the apoc, maller, prophecy all function a whole lot better in tanking with minmatar guns while doing same dmg as with amarr guns, go figure the thought from the "balancing" team there. btw, isnt amarr missing a frigate also? and when will amarr specialized players be able to use the small beams on frigates?, fittings for the medium beams that are small beams are way to big to be used on any frigate sized ship. and on and on and on and on and on.... you get the picture. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
ARMORINE
Posted - 2006.10.09 18:13:00 -
[2585 ]
i dont care whats done just as long as something is done to help ammar. give us more cap...err well maybe not btu a slight increase in cap regen would be nice, im sick of my lasers eating my cap alive even when atlvl but its all good. oh and one more thing can we keeep this civalized...to some extent. thank you P.s. keep the idea factory running i like some fo the ones that arnt overpowered /bump /sign /whatever :)
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.09 19:08:00 -
[2586 ]
Edited by: Cosmo Raata on 09/10/2006 19:10:03 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 09/10/2006 18:09:26 Originally by: Cosmo Raata When i speak of "We" I'm talking about all the demands from Amarr pilots, even the ridiculous ones. Honestly the ideas that I've posted are very reasonable. Lets see, Do you really think CCP is nerfing webs, dampenders, tracking disrupters, ECCM's, Scrams, Cap Boosters, Afterburners, MWD's and Target Painters? You gave one example of a med slot being possibly nerfed....which is ECM, Nos is High. So please, do everyone a favor and delete your very uninformed alt post. WTF are you talking about? I mention the two modules that are confirmed to be looked at towards reducing there effect and "whatever changes happen in future" meaning after ECM/NOS we'll see what everyone whines about and gets nerfed... I never said anywhere that web, tp, ab ect are getting nerfed. How is that uninformed? I never said mid slots so why make a point about the only mid slot I mentioned being ECM? Because Amarr have low number of mids? I guess that means all mids are for reducing dps/tanks, oh look shield tanking.... so with your suggestion of Amarr being kings of gank/tank, that means any shield tankers who can't reduce the dps (EW in mids) and tank the damage (oh look mids again) of amarr while trying to break the "kings of gank/tank" armour tank are screwed. A very "reasonable idea" to make shield tanking absolutly pointless, there are unforseen conciquences of most ideas, even if they sound reasonable at first. And another great arguement of "uninformed" to add to your "your biased". Please make your posts clearer and not just random ranting with put downs instead of real points ignoring the main points of my posts. Man, I guess i need to hold the hand of the alt poster. WE HAVE LESS MEDS TO DO ANYTHING BUT DPS/TANK! Gallante has ships that can hold their own with lots of options for tank, gank, ew, whatever. We don't. Ravens have free low slots for the perfect gank & tank, BOTH!! You just have no clue at all. Unless CCP gives us more meds to do stuff other than gank/tank, then we should be the best at it. PERIOD. Just go away troll, you have no clue. All of those mods I mentioned are mods we barely get to use. Doesn't matter how good a gank ship is, ew of some kind will PWN it. I dont have the will to argue with you anyways, You obviously haven't read enough of this thread to have a damn clue.
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.09 19:32:00 -
[2587 ]
Xendie, I never said there wasn't problems with Amarr, I just agree with others that they do need changes in certain areas. Don't worry about the Arb/Curse/Pilg, the Domi also uses NOS/ECM/Drones to great effect (well pawn effect), drones and TD bonus isn't something to be turned up as. If good ship means "good solo" then sure many Amarr ships are rubbish, but some ships are under-rated. Originally by: Cosmo Raata Man, I guess i need to hold the hand of the alt poster. WE HAVE LESS MEDS TO DO ANYTHING BUT DPS/TANK! Gallante has ships that can hold their own with lots of options for tank, gank, ew, whatever. We don't. Ravens have free low slots for the perfect gank & tank, BOTH!! You just have no clue at all. Unless CCP gives us more meds to do stuff other than gank/tank, then we should be the best at it. PERIOD. Just go away troll, you have no clue. All of those mods I mentioned are mods we barely get to use. Doesn't matter how good a gank ship is, ew of some kind will PWN it. I dont have the will to argue with you anyways, You obviously haven't read enough of this thread to have a damn clue. And so the name call continues, I am not trolling, I bring valid points. You have 0 right to tell me if I can post or not, don't like me, don't talk to me, simple. So your saying you want a Raven...... a ship that can deal great damage at 40km+ with a great tank.... sure go ahead its not like everyone complains about the range/damage of the Raven! We saw the effect of Amarr gank ships before stacking nerfed that, having tank/gank (ok gank won't approach the level of before) isn't wise imho, if that makes me "uninformed" then fine, i'll call you crazy. A Mega gets great damage from its blasters at very close range, why should Amarr get same/more damage at long range? That is not balanced. Mega has 1 or 0 mids more than a Amarr BS, so EW is not a valid reason. You have a drone bay as well btw to make up for your lack of mids. I do agree that Amarr's tank should be better, through better cap and starting hp, after that the range on the guns is great, so having gank damage at that range while tanking is not balanced. EANM need balancing with active hardeners to reduce the bonus that EANM bring over the actives, that will increase the damage from lasers to previous levels when no one complained as much... One uninformed, trolling, clueless, doesn't read, alt logging out for the night... have fun dreaming about your pawnmobiles while i'm gone. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
HEINZ ZERO
Posted - 2006.10.09 21:56:00 -
[2588 ]
HI, this is my first post on this Topic I have the following Problem: I heard that Amarr Lasers have a "build in Damage" bonus... but when I compared the damage from Mega Pulse Laser weapons and Neutron Blasters I got the following numbers: the best/ largest T1 Weapons Mega Beam I with Multifequency Trackingspeed: 0.027 3 x 28 EM + 20 Therm = 144 144 / 7.88 ROF = 18.27 DPS Neutron Blaster I with Antimatter Trackingspeed: 0.0433 3.5 x 28 Kin + 20 Therm = 168 168 / 7.88 ROF = 21.32 DPS and now the T2 Stuff: Mega Beam II with Multifequency Trackingspeed: 0.027 3.6 x 28 EM + 20 Therm = 172.8 172.8 / 7.88 ROF = 21.93 DPS Neutron Blaster II with Antimatter Trackingspeed: 0.0433 4.2 x 28 Kin + 20 Therm = 201.6 201.6 / 7.88 ROF = 25.58 DPS Seems that the DPS from Neutron Blasters is higher than the Mega Pulse¦s... but where is the "build in damage" bonus that Amarr Lasers should have...
Murukan
MinmatarThe Priory
Posted - 2006.10.09 22:02:00 -
[2589 ]
Originally by: HEINZ ZERO HI, this is my first post on this Topic I have the following Problem: I heard that Amarr Lasers have a "build in Damage" bonus... but when I compared the damage from Mega Pulse Laser weapons and Neutron Blasters I got the following numbers: the best/ largest T1 Weapons Mega Beam I with Multifequency Trackingspeed: 0.027 3 x 28 EM + 20 Therm = 144 144 / 7.88 ROF = 18.27 DPS Neutron Blaster I with Antimatter Trackingspeed: 0.0433 3.5 x 28 Kin + 20 Therm = 168 168 / 7.88 ROF = 21.32 DPS and now the T2 Stuff: Mega Beam II with Multifequency Trackingspeed: 0.027 3.6 x 28 EM + 20 Therm = 172.8 172.8 / 7.88 ROF = 21.93 DPS Neutron Blaster II with Antimatter Trackingspeed: 0.0433 4.2 x 28 Kin + 20 Therm = 201.6 201.6 / 7.88 ROF = 25.58 DPS Seems that the DPS from Neutron Blasters is higher than the Mega Pulse¦s... but where is the "build in damage" bonus that Amarr Lasers should have... ....You stupid ****s that compare megapulses to nuetron blasters need to never reproduce cause you're screwing up evolution. Nuetron blasters are supposed to be the highest damage weapon in the game (outside of XL crap) hence why they have the lowest range. Megapulses are not going to out dps a nuetron blasters and never will so get that through your head you stupid tit.In rust we trust!!!
Lord C'tan
Posted - 2006.10.10 00:23:00 -
[2590 ]
lol thats harsh Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Stephar
The High Priest
Posted - 2006.10.10 00:46:00 -
[2591 ]
Originally by: Murukan ....You stupid ****s that compare megapulses to nuetron blasters need to never reproduce cause you're screwing up evolution. Nuetron blasters are supposed to be the highest damage weapon in the game (outside of XL crap) hence why they have the lowest range. Megapulses are not going to out dps a nuetron blasters and never will so get that through your head you stupid tit. You completely missed his point. He said that blasters outdamage lasers, but lasers have a "built in damage bonus." It would appear that blasters have a built in damage bonus as well. So why do lasers use over twice the cap of blasters if they both have built in damage bonuses? I agree that blasters should outdamage lasers... but lasers use twice the cap. If laser cap use was cut by 50%, blasters would still outdamage lasers as well as consume less cap.
Itaro Flagg
Sicarri Covenant
Posted - 2006.10.10 00:48:00 -
[2592 ]
Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Murukan ....You stupid ****s that compare megapulses to nuetron blasters need to never reproduce cause you're screwing up evolution. Nuetron blasters are supposed to be the highest damage weapon in the game (outside of XL crap) hence why they have the lowest range. Megapulses are not going to out dps a nuetron blasters and never will so get that through your head you stupid tit. You completely missed his point. He said that blasters outdamage lasers, but lasers have a "built in damage bonus." It would appear that blasters have a built in damage bonus as well. So why do lasers use over twice the cap of blasters if they both have built in damage bonuses? I agree that blasters should outdamage lasers... but lasers use twice the cap. If laser cap use was cut by 50%, blasters would still outdamage lasers as well as consume less cap. And you completely missed that he was comparing mega BEAM lasers to neutron blasters. There *is* no point.
Stephar
The High Priest
Posted - 2006.10.10 01:00:00 -
[2593 ]
Originally by: Itaro Flagg And you completely missed that he was comparing mega BEAM lasers to neutron blasters. There *is* no point. I saw that too. Then looked at the stats a bit more carefully... he was using the stats for Mega Pulses, which track at 0.027 with a 7.88 ROF. Mega BEAMS track at 0.015 with a 9.00 ROF.
Murukan
MinmatarThe Priory
Posted - 2006.10.10 01:17:00 -
[2594 ]
Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Murukan ....You stupid ****s that compare megapulses to nuetron blasters need to never reproduce cause you're screwing up evolution. Nuetron blasters are supposed to be the highest damage weapon in the game (outside of XL crap) hence why they have the lowest range. Megapulses are not going to out dps a nuetron blasters and never will so get that through your head you stupid tit. You completely missed his point. He said that blasters outdamage lasers, but lasers have a "built in damage bonus." It would appear that blasters have a built in damage bonus as well. So why do lasers use over twice the cap of blasters if they both have built in damage bonuses? I agree that blasters should outdamage lasers... but lasers use twice the cap. If laser cap use was cut by 50%, blasters would still outdamage lasers as well as consume less cap. you can't just use the arguement that they do more damage so they need to use more cap. Pulses also have a really big range bonus on blasters.In rust we trust!!!
Stephar
The High Priest
Posted - 2006.10.10 01:23:00 -
[2595 ]
Originally by: Murukan Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Murukan ....You stupid ****s that compare megapulses to nuetron blasters need to never reproduce cause you're screwing up evolution. Nuetron blasters are supposed to be the highest damage weapon in the game (outside of XL crap) hence why they have the lowest range. Megapulses are not going to out dps a nuetron blasters and never will so get that through your head you stupid tit. You completely missed his point. He said that blasters outdamage lasers, but lasers have a "built in damage bonus." It would appear that blasters have a built in damage bonus as well. So why do lasers use over twice the cap of blasters if they both have built in damage bonuses? I agree that blasters should outdamage lasers... but lasers use twice the cap. If laser cap use was cut by 50%, blasters would still outdamage lasers as well as consume less cap. you can't just use the arguement that they do more damage so they need to use more cap. Pulses also have a really big range bonus on blasters. And rails have more range than beams. Beams use over twice as much cap as rails.
Murukan
MinmatarThe Priory
Posted - 2006.10.10 02:40:00 -
[2596 ]
ok and rails also don't have a high an alpha as beams. Lasers use the most cap, that's the penalty for their lack of ammo, so no amount of *****ing will get hybrids to use more cap.In rust we trust!!!
Saria Mysdrial
AmarrStar Fortress
Posted - 2006.10.10 03:05:00 -
[2597 ]
Maybe I'm crazy, but if blasters do more damage than pulses, with pulses built-in "damage bonus", and blasterboats GET a real damage bonus...where exactly is the laser damage bonus? I agree that blasters should do more damage...with the damage bonus added on. Not more base damage, if there is a mystery laser damage bonus, as many claim. Or maybe we should just dispose of this "built-in damage bonus" nonsense, and claim that short-range lasers are better because of their range. This of course brings up the range issues with combat in EvE, but that's another story.
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.10 04:04:00 -
[2598 ]
Originally by: Murukan ok and rails also don't have a high an alpha as beams. Lasers use the most cap, that's the penalty for their lack of ammo, so no amount of *****ing will get hybrids to use more cap. This is the single weakest argument against Amarr. We have the worst falloff by far, which means while you have to reload 1 time in PvP, we have to change our crystals 3-4 times. I'd gladly give up our "no ammo" pleasure for a damn fix to our Race. I'd also like to see how far off the alpha is from beams, Raw damage you may be right, but with resistances as they are, I bet you're dead wrong. Anyways, you're just another clueless punk that doesn't fly Amarr and thus a) Could care less, b) Really doesn't know, c) Is a Troll with very little valuable insight.
OrangeAfroMan
Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
Posted - 2006.10.10 06:48:00 -
[2599 ]
My first, and likely last endeavor into this thread is simply to say that I feel very bad for Murukan... He's fighting a losing battle as ignorance rules these forums, and the intelligence and knowledge Muru is trying to get across will never mean much, because his audience is 100% pure noob. Amarr are fine... You people just have zero PvP experience in this game and NO knowledge about how it does or should work. Go away. Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
Axitikus
MinmatarRaid and Recon The Imperial Order
Posted - 2006.10.10 07:46:00 -
[2600 ]
Dang, every Amarr pilot in the game just got served. Everyone give it up and go train Caldari /Amarr thread dead
General Tso's
Amarr
Posted - 2006.10.10 07:48:00 -
[2601 ]
Edited by: General Tso''s on 10/10/2006 07:53:14 Originally by: Kardim imo its quite hard to find balance, any change made to amarr even just a slight cap boost on the ships say 5% could theoretically give them an edge (as unrealistic as this example is) and the world of 90% of game flying cal/gall would come crashing down. The only changes that will work are extremly well thought out and very well tested ones. i think caution in this matter is the way to go, but at the same time im still quite %^&**&$# ))(*&^&*(*(&^%^%^%^%^%^*(^&*()&)) about how they overnerfed amarr to begin w/. I agree with Kardim 100%, I love Amarr, and will be on the Amarr side when factional war comes into place (Also known as "The Great Amarr Masacre" AKA "Amarr Extinction" AKA "Amarr Beatdown 2K7") and we all know the amarr are severly outdated, were fighting with bows and arrows here. As much as i'd love to see a drastic change, it simply can't happen. Everyones posting here asking for more damage, more types, explosive crystals... but even slight changes in the most miniscule attributes can have devasting unforsean effects. I think we have slowly erroded to fit the storyline, kali will bring about a new era with factional war, the story is set with the amarr loosing quite a few of our systems, currently we own more systems then any empire, which is unfair right? So in a sense they have set us up to fit their storyline, like a fixed fight. It'll be a good one no doubt :), and I will die with all amarr's. Those pink dots will slowly change colors, and the great Amarr nation will be reduced to ashes. -------- They say the universe is perfect If you try to change it, you'll only ruin it If you try to hold onto it, it will only slip away
Murukan
MinmatarThe Priory
Posted - 2006.10.10 07:53:00 -
[2602 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Originally by: Murukan ok and rails also don't have a high an alpha as beams. Lasers use the most cap, that's the penalty for their lack of ammo, so no amount of *****ing will get hybrids to use more cap. This is the single weakest argument against Amarr. We have the worst falloff by far, which means while you have to reload 1 time in PvP, we have to change our crystals 3-4 times. I'd gladly give up our "no ammo" pleasure for a damn fix to our Race. I'd also like to see how far off the alpha is from beams, Raw damage you may be right, but with resistances as they are, I bet you're dead wrong. Anyways, you're just another clueless punk that doesn't fly Amarr and thus a) Could care less, b) Really doesn't know, c) Is a Troll with very little valuable insight. zomg you have to change crystals? Good thing they only take one second!! And falloff on rails is 25km, not too shabby, but a ship approaching you can get past that mark and then you have to wait for your gun's cyle to end, and wait 10 seconds to load in new ammo. Having no ammo is a very nice advantage and i love how you amarr whiners (you seem to be an exceptionally dumb tit) love to downplay it. And yah against armor i'm sure the laser's alpha isn't as high. But i'm guessing against shields it does a lot more damage than hybrids. And yes most people armor tank, however it has nothign to do with amarr or lasers or any of that crap. It's more due to the fact that ecm+weak tank>>strong tank and everyone packs their mids with as much ecm as possible. Once ecm gets nerfed (what you guys really should be argueing for) All those ships that pack their mids with ecm will probably start shield tanking, and voila more targets that are weaker to amarr damage. So instead of whining for stupid damage increases that will unbalance the game why don't you do some constructive whining?In rust we trust!!!
Stephar
The High Priest
Posted - 2006.10.10 08:55:00 -
[2603 ]
Originally by: OrangeAfroMan My first, and likely last endeavor into this thread is simply to say that I feel very bad for Murukan... He's fighting a losing battle as ignorance rules these forums, and the intelligence and knowledge Muru is trying to get across will never mean much, because his audience is 100% pure noob. Amarr are fine... You people just have zero PvP experience in this game and NO knowledge about how it does or should work. Go away. Can you explain the market? Tech 2 lasers are drastically cheaper than their hybrid/projectile cousins. People have already abandoned Amarr in droves. It's easy to call one person an ignorant noob, but quite another to place the same label on the majority of the playerbase, which is exactly what the market represents.
Angelic Resolution
The Arcanum
Posted - 2006.10.10 09:02:00 -
[2604 ]
Originally by: Murukan Originally by: Cosmo Raata Originally by: Murukan ok and rails also don't have a high an alpha as beams. Lasers use the most cap, that's the penalty for their lack of ammo, so no amount of *****ing will get hybrids to use more cap. This is the single weakest argument against Amarr. We have the worst falloff by far, which means while you have to reload 1 time in PvP, we have to change our crystals 3-4 times. I'd gladly give up our "no ammo" pleasure for a damn fix to our Race. I'd also like to see how far off the alpha is from beams, Raw damage you may be right, but with resistances as they are, I bet you're dead wrong. Anyways, you're just another clueless punk that doesn't fly Amarr and thus a) Could care less, b) Really doesn't know, c) Is a Troll with very little valuable insight. zomg you have to change crystals? Good thing they only take one second!! And falloff on rails is 25km, not too shabby, but a ship approaching you can get past that mark and then you have to wait for your gun's cyle to end, and wait 10 seconds to load in new ammo. Having no ammo is a very nice advantage and i love how you amarr whiners (you seem to be an exceptionally dumb tit) love to downplay it. And yah against armor i'm sure the laser's alpha isn't as high. But i'm guessing against shields it does a lot more damage than hybrids. And yes most people armor tank, however it has nothign to do with amarr or lasers or any of that crap. It's more due to the fact that ecm+weak tank>>strong tank and everyone packs their mids with as much ecm as possible. Once ecm gets nerfed (what you guys really should be argueing for) All those ships that pack their mids with ecm will probably start shield tanking, and voila more targets that are weaker to amarr damage. So instead of whining for stupid damage increases that will unbalance the game why don't you do some constructive whining? I agree on the factional warfare however disagree on the ECM argument, they'll probably fit something even more amusing AND gallente/minmattar (Armor tankers) will still use the EANM tank which will mean they'll still rule the day. Go figure, either way we'll be screwed. And take this into mind: whilst a raven can fire the missiles and shield tank, the blasthron can blast + dual rep and the tempest firing all arties with no cap needed. Now the raven + tempest pilots will probably stick to armor tanking to get a really great boost in locking time + distance, at most they'll use 3 but at least 2. So whilst they're boosting continually for 900 shield (Booster + amp) the blaster is dual repping for 1400's and killing everything in site as long as it gets into range. Now then: Amarr. Apoc with 2 signal boosters, dual rep and mega pulses. Even at lvl 5 amarr BS you'll still lose more cap then you can regen doing the normal approach of 2 cap rechargers and 2 cap relays. No way in hell would you be able to keep up the damage on them whilst your dual rep kills your tank, your mega pulses although doing half of their normal cap use eats cap for breakfast thanks to a ROF of 7 seconds or less. Amarr are meant to be the best tankers in game. True. We can fit an apoc to out tank any ship in a 1v1. Know why? Cause it'll be a stale mate. No matter which way you look at it the amarr race needs a little bit of love, be it an extra turret slot for the zealot or better cap regen for all amarr ships across the board. Either way something should be done soon. Personally I like lasers, I only use them for NPC'ing and the occasional PvP. But trying to run 6 tachyons and a dual rep continually with 1 signal booster is almost impossible. 2006.10.10 08:44:33 Combat Your Tachyon Anode Particle Stream I perfectly strikes Outpost Headquarters, wrecking for 1040.8 damage. They're ok but I use a nightmare, 50% less cap straight off the bat. And only 4 lasers to deal with so it's fine, if it were 6.. I'd be dead most times :( Just my 2 ISK.
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.10 11:08:00 -
[2605 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata This is the single weakest argument against Amarr. We have the worst falloff by far, which means while you have to reload 1 time in PvP, we have to change our crystals 3-4 times. I'd gladly give up our "no ammo" pleasure for a damn fix to our Race. I'd also like to see how far off the alpha is from beams, Raw damage you may be right, but with resistances as they are, I bet you're dead wrong. Anyways, you're just another clueless punk that doesn't fly Amarr and thus a) Could care less, b) Really doesn't know, c) Is a Troll with very little valuable insight. Wow name calling again, your so big and clever... Optimal is better than falloff. As I keep saying but you ignore and pick on other points by putting words in my mouth. So my solo point of this post. 40km OPTIMAL! on close range turrets. Your starting damage is not far behind blasters who have a MAX optimal of 15km. So why should lasers do more damage than blasters when they have 25km more range? ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.10 11:12:00 -
[2606 ]
Originally by: Murukan zomg you have to change crystals? Good thing they only take one second!! You can change 8 crystals in one second? I'm impressed! Come to that, with the usual state of the servers these days, I'd be quite impressed if you can change one crystal in one second... Crystal change lag, crystal replacement cost (especially T2) and pathetic falloff leaving you way from optimal damage in any fast-moving engagement all make "no ammo" increasingly worthless as a so-called "advantage".
Kovacs Caprios
MinmatarQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.10 11:35:00 -
[2607 ]
Originally by: Lucre Originally by: Murukan zomg you have to change crystals? Good thing they only take one second!! You can change 8 crystals in one second? I'm impressed! Come to that, with the usual state of the servers these days, I'd be quite impressed if you can change one crystal in one second... Crystal change lag, crystal replacement cost (especially T2) and pathetic falloff leaving you way from optimal damage in any fast-moving engagement all make "no ammo" increasingly worthless as a so-called "advantage". I forgot that other races T2 ammo was so cheap
Jazz Bo
CaldariCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.10.10 11:50:00 -
[2608 ]
Originally by: Stephar You completely missed his point. He said that blasters outdamage lasers, but lasers have a "built in damage bonus." It would appear that blasters have a built in damage bonus as well. So why do lasers use over twice the cap of blasters if they both have built in damage bonuses? I agree that blasters should outdamage lasers... but lasers use twice the cap. If laser cap use was cut by 50%, blasters would still outdamage lasers as well as consume less cap. 1. Blasters have vastly inferior range 2. if you want a valid comparison, try Ion Blasters vs. Mega Pulse. Neutrons are all but impossible to fit (considering you can't undock without a MWD and Cap Injector) 3. If you factor in the -50% cap use from the amarr ship skill, blasters only use a bit less cap. A Blasterthron only has a little over 4k cap, and runs out of it faster than you can say "800 Cap Charge". Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.10 14:10:00 -
[2609 ]
Originally by: Jazz Bo Originally by: Stephar You completely missed his point. He said that blasters outdamage lasers, but lasers have a "built in damage bonus." It would appear that blasters have a built in damage bonus as well. So why do lasers use over twice the cap of blasters if they both have built in damage bonuses? I agree that blasters should outdamage lasers... but lasers use twice the cap. If laser cap use was cut by 50%, blasters would still outdamage lasers as well as consume less cap. 1. Blasters have vastly inferior range 2. if you want a valid comparison, try Ion Blasters vs. Mega Pulse. Neutrons are all but impossible to fit (considering you can't undock without a MWD and Cap Injector) 3. If you factor in the -50% cap use from the amarr ship skill, blasters only use a bit less cap. A Blasterthron only has a little over 4k cap, and runs out of it faster than you can say "800 Cap Charge". what are you smoking Jazz? mega pulses are the biggest close range gun for amarr, neutrons are the biggest for gallente. why on earth would you measure amarrs biggest vs gallentes medium? you trying to bend numbers and stats now? Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.10 14:28:00 -
[2610 ]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/10/2006 14:28:14 Mega with T2 Neutrons using: Null = 469 dps with about 12km range, Void = 629 dps with about 4km range. Geddon with T2 Megapulse using: Scorch = 367 dps with about 45km range. Conflag = 501 dps with 15km range. If you look a Geddons max damage ammo it out damages/ranges the Mega with its max range ammo. I understand thats not a direct comparison of ammo type. Of course this is before the resists and EANM+dmg control armour tank waa waa waa stuff. Fact is 3x hardener armour tank makes EM lowest resist on armour, and when that was typical tank Amarr didn't complain about there damage output at all... Due to Scorch doing only ~10dps less than Null with an extra 30km of range. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.10.10 14:31:00 -
[2611 ]
Edited by: LordChaos on 10/10/2006 14:33:12 to tell u guys the truth i think the real problem with Amarr is that u can screw them over easily with EW the easiest race to screw over Amarr TD Jamming Amarr got the worst sensor strength Cap depended slow worst ever fittings Caldari: Slow No insta damage..................... noooooooooooo Rokh :) can fire with no cap can even tank passivily with shield recharge (not saying its uber) very nice EW ships and sensor strength Minni: SLAVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FAST Alpha Strikes not that effected from TD Easliy jammed VERSITILE Very hvy skill dependent <--------- takes time Crappy looking ships <------------ worst thing not cap depended Gallante: UBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in everything thats my opinion, everyone is effected by something but for amarr everything EW effects them easy and they really have the worst dam fitting requirments ever The Master Of Chaos
Proxay
GallenteFallen Angel's Xelas Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.10 14:36:00 -
[2612 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/10/2006 14:28:14 Mega with T2 Neutrons using: Null = 469 dps with about 12km range, Void = 629 dps with about 4km range. ... that all????
Critta
Black Omega Security The OSS
Posted - 2006.10.10 14:37:00 -
[2613 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Jazz Bo Originally by: Stephar You completely missed his point. He said that blasters outdamage lasers, but lasers have a "built in damage bonus." It would appear that blasters have a built in damage bonus as well. So why do lasers use over twice the cap of blasters if they both have built in damage bonuses? I agree that blasters should outdamage lasers... but lasers use twice the cap. If laser cap use was cut by 50%, blasters would still outdamage lasers as well as consume less cap. 1. Blasters have vastly inferior range 2. if you want a valid comparison, try Ion Blasters vs. Mega Pulse. Neutrons are all but impossible to fit (considering you can't undock without a MWD and Cap Injector) 3. If you factor in the -50% cap use from the amarr ship skill, blasters only use a bit less cap. A Blasterthron only has a little over 4k cap, and runs out of it faster than you can say "800 Cap Charge". what are you smoking Jazz? mega pulses are the biggest close range gun for amarr, neutrons are the biggest for gallente. why on earth would you measure amarrs biggest vs gallentes medium? you trying to bend numbers and stats now? I think what he's trying to say is that it's difficult, nay impossible to get a blasterthron fitting that will actually work with Neutrons. It's actually suprisingly easy to put together a workable fitting using Mega Pulses on the Amarr battleships. Not bending numbers or stats, but comparing practical fittings.
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.10 14:39:00 -
[2614 ]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/10/2006 14:43:54 Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/10/2006 14:42:14 Originally by: Proxay Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/10/2006 14:28:14 Mega with T2 Neutrons using: Null = 469 dps with about 12km range, Void = 629 dps with about 4km range. ... that all???? Just turret comparison. No drones or damage mods as both effect each ship the same. Both can fit 5x heavy drones. They have same number of lows so posibilities are the same for damage mods, both gain the same %age increase from damage mods. Edit: for reference max skills and 5x T2 heavy thermal drones (ogres) give an extra: 317dps. I'll add this to my orginal dps post. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.10.10 14:41:00 -
[2615 ]
Originally by: Critta Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Jazz Bo Originally by: Stephar You completely missed his point. He said that blasters outdamage lasers, but lasers have a "built in damage bonus." It would appear that blasters have a built in damage bonus as well. So why do lasers use over twice the cap of blasters if they both have built in damage bonuses? I agree that blasters should outdamage lasers... but lasers use twice the cap. If laser cap use was cut by 50%, blasters would still outdamage lasers as well as consume less cap. 1. Blasters have vastly inferior range 2. if you want a valid comparison, try Ion Blasters vs. Mega Pulse. Neutrons are all but impossible to fit (considering you can't undock without a MWD and Cap Injector) 3. If you factor in the -50% cap use from the amarr ship skill, blasters only use a bit less cap. A Blasterthron only has a little over 4k cap, and runs out of it faster than you can say "800 Cap Charge". what are you smoking Jazz? mega pulses are the biggest close range gun for amarr, neutrons are the biggest for gallente. why on earth would you measure amarrs biggest vs gallentes medium? you trying to bend numbers and stats now? I think what he's trying to say is that it's difficult, nay impossible to get a blasterthron fitting that will actually work with Neutrons. It's actually suprisingly easy to put together a workable fitting using Mega Pulses on the Amarr battleships. Not bending numbers or stats, but comparing practical fittings. actually imo mega pulse=ions and large pulse lasers lack a neutron/tachyon equalivent... electron, ion, neutron dual 250mm, 350mm, 425mm dual heavy beam, mega beam, tachyon dual heavy pulse, mega pulse, *****
Ti Nsi
Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.10 14:45:00 -
[2616 ]
The thing that riles me is EM resists of shields and armour. Pwning shields and being crap against armour I dont like, I would prefer it to be less skewed either way. Although the same could be said about explo damage on shields, but I don't know what minmatar pilots think about that, if they do at all.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.10 15:03:00 -
[2617 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/10/2006 14:43:54 Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/10/2006 14:42:14 Originally by: Proxay Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/10/2006 14:28:14 Mega with T2 Neutrons using: Null = 469 dps with about 12km range, Void = 629 dps with about 4km range. ... that all???? Just turret comparison. No drones or damage mods as both effect each ship the same. Both can fit 5x heavy drones. They have same number of lows so posibilities are the same for damage mods, both gain the same %age increase from damage mods. Edit: for reference max skills and 5x T2 heavy thermal drones (ogres) give an extra: 317dps. I'll add this to my orginal dps post. the armageddon can fit 5 heavies yes but the thread isnt about the only usable amarr battleship. measure the amarr tier2 vs the gallente tier2. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Stephar
The High Priest
Posted - 2006.10.10 15:05:00 -
[2618 ]
Nobody really cared about the EM resistance thing a couple of years ago. A megapulse Geddon with 8 heat sinks could basically rip any tier 1 ship apart in seconds. Lots of changes have occured since then, a few of the key ones being: - megapulse nerf: (self explanatory) - tier 2 ships: all races have resistance bonuses - shrinkage of cap charge volume: having a bigger capacitor not much of an advantage - damage mod stacking nerf: bye "8 heat sinks" - armor compensation skills: hello "2 eanm + dc" - ECM buff: mid-slots >>> low-slots There were some other minor changes, such as the blaster cap reduction and complete elimination of cap for projectiles. Add all these changes together, and the once overpowered Amarrian race has become rather... lacking.
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.10.10 15:06:00 -
[2619 ]
the probelsm with pulse lasers is that they only really hit thing on the top side of their optimal range, putting t2 crystals on is ludicrus unless your aiming at a POS. if a megathron gets under 30k or so, a geddon wouldnt be able to hit him. amarr need little rubs in several arreas, some people think just one thing could fix us (it could patch us up for a bit untill the other races whined enough to get boosts) but i think pulses need more tracking and bit less cap as the dmg they doo needs much longer time to kill the target but our ships have genereally the same cap/sec regen. beams need maybe a bit more dmg and less fitting. these things would help lasers, but lasers probobly arnt the worst problems w/ amarr.
Nir
Posted - 2006.10.10 15:07:00 -
[2620 ]
Originally by: Ti Nsi but I don't know what minmatar pilots think about that, if they do at all.They just fit EMP and pwn both..
Murukan
MinmatarThe Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.10.10 15:07:00 -
[2621 ]
Originally by: Angelic Resolution I agree on the factional warfare however disagree on the ECM argument, they'll probably fit something even more amusing AND gallente/minmattar (Armor tankers) will still use the EANM tank which will mean they'll still rule the day. Go figure, either way we'll be screwed. And take this into mind: whilst a raven can fire the missiles and shield tank, the blasthron can blast + dual rep and the tempest firing all arties with no cap needed. Now the raven + tempest pilots will probably stick to armor tanking to get a really great boost in locking time + distance, at most they'll use 3 but at least 2. So whilst they're boosting continually for 900 shield (Booster + amp) the blaster is dual repping for 1400's and killing everything in site as long as it gets into range. Now then: Amarr. Apoc with 2 signal boosters, dual rep and mega pulses. Even at lvl 5 amarr BS you'll still lose more cap then you can regen doing the normal approach of 2 cap rechargers and 2 cap relays. No way in hell would you be able to keep up the damage on them whilst your dual rep kills your tank, your mega pulses although doing half of their normal cap use eats cap for breakfast thanks to a ROF of 7 seconds or less. Amarr are meant to be the best tankers in game. True. We can fit an apoc to out tank any ship in a 1v1. Know why? Cause it'll be a stale mate. No matter which way you look at it the amarr race needs a little bit of love, be it an extra turret slot for the zealot or better cap regen for all amarr ships across the board. Either way something should be done soon. Personally I like lasers, I only use them for NPC'ing and the occasional PvP. But trying to run 6 tachyons and a dual rep continually with 1 signal booster is almost impossible. 2006.10.10 08:44:33 Combat Your Tachyon Anode Particle Stream I perfectly strikes Outpost Headquarters, wrecking for 1040.8 damage. They're ok but I use a nightmare, 50% less cap straight off the bat. And only 4 lasers to deal with so it's fine, if it were 6.. I'd be dead most times :( Just my 2 ISK I think when ecm gets nerfed you will see a lot more shield tanks. The tempest can shield tank while stacking it's lows with dmg mod tracking enhancers. You might even see dominix shield tanks as it has enough slots. A lot more variety will come to the tanks you find when it isn't so obvious as to what you should fill your mids with.In rust we trust!!!
Critta
Black Omega Security The OSS
Posted - 2006.10.10 15:13:00 -
[2622 ]
Edited by: Critta on 10/10/2006 15:14:04 Originally by: Deathbarrage actually imo mega pulse=ions and large pulse lasers lack a neutron/tachyon equalivent... electron, ion, neutron dual 250mm, 350mm, 425mm dual heavy beam, mega beam, tachyon dual heavy pulse, mega pulse, ***** You appear to be missing a point there, allow me to make it for you. Amarr are the *only* race with 4 types of long range turret, with the Tach II being the highest DPS long range gun in the game. Tach II DPS w/Multifreq = 20.36 425mm Rail II w/Anitmatter = 16.56 1400 II w/EMP = 9.928 I admit, they're a pain to fit, but they're great for some stupid DPS :D See it's not all doom and gloom is it ;)
Critta
Black Omega Security The OSS
Posted - 2006.10.10 15:35:00 -
[2623 ]
Originally by: Kardim the probelsm with pulse lasers is that they only really hit thing on the top side of their optimal range, putting t2 crystals on is ludicrus unless your aiming at a POS. if a megathron gets under 30k or so, a geddon wouldnt be able to hit him. amarr need little rubs in several arreas, some people think just one thing could fix us (it could patch us up for a bit untill the other races whined enough to get boosts) but i think pulses need more tracking and bit less cap as the dmg they doo needs much longer time to kill the target but our ships have genereally the same cap/sec regen. beams need maybe a bit more dmg and less fitting. these things would help lasers, but lasers probobly arnt the worst problems w/ amarr. So, what you're trying to say here is that if you're using mega pulse ... if someone gets within 30km (just to clarify here, Mega Pulse II optimal range with Multifreq, with max gunnery skills is 15k... falloff is 9.6k.. optimal + falloff = 24.6km) You're trying to tell me you do more damage with megapulse when your target is OUTSIDE your optimal + falloff? You sir are absolutely nuts. I have no problem hitting a target at 15km, with t2 (conflag) or t1 (multifreq) for large amounts of damage. Please don't talk about balance issues if you're going to make ludicrous statements like that. It's just misleading and wrong.
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.10 15:38:00 -
[2624 ]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 10/10/2006 15:44:39 Originally by: Xendie the armageddon can fit 5 heavies yes but the thread isnt about the only usable amarr battleship. measure the amarr tier2 vs the gallente tier2. Well I could compare the Tier 1 vs Tier 1 but they are very different ships, a Mega and Geddon are both designed as damage dealers if i'm not mistaken (no doubt someone will correct me if i'm wrong). I made a big mistake, I used Apoc not Geddon in my orginal figures Geddon and Apoc numbers with Mega for comparison. Mega with T2 Neutrons using: Null = 469 dps with about 12km range, Void = 639 dps with about 4km range. Geddon with T2 Megapulse using: Scorch = 424 dps with about 45km range. Conflag = 578 dps with 15km range. Apoc with T2 Megapulse using: Scorch = 367 dps with about 45km range. Conflag = 501 dps with 15km range. For Apoc add 190 dps for drones. For Geddon+Mega add 317 dps for drones. Originally by: Nir Originally by: Ti Nsi but I don't know what minmatar pilots think about that, if they do at all.They just fit EMP and pwn both.. You clearly never flown a Minmatar ship, as you obviously have never bothered to look at EMP ammo stats since its maybe primary EM damage it also shoots a lot of EXP.... which is the highest resist on shields... of course we have PP but thats same as hybrid ammo but less damage from antimatter before you even fit it to a gun..... ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Critta
Black Omega Security The OSS
Posted - 2006.10.10 15:43:00 -
[2625 ]
Originally by: Nir Originally by: Ti Nsi but I don't know what minmatar pilots think about that, if they do at all.They just fit EMP and pwn both.. Let's look at that for a second. Large EMP ammo: EMP dam: 20 Explosive dam: 16 Kinetic dam: 8 So, the Explosive damage is rediculously tanked on shields. The EMP damage is rediculously tanked on armour. Kinetic damage is rediculously tanked on both by anyone with half a clue. At any time approx 50% of your damage is going to be hitting a high resistance - much like lasers with hitting armour, but without the benefit of ripping shields apart so easily. Whereas thermal damage which is the other one lasers do, is the least tanked attrib in the game (why do you think so many people swear by Ogres?) I fail to see how the Minmatar (who also for note have the lowest DPS guns in the game ;) ) "pwn both" by fitting EMP ammo.
Shirazz
Posted - 2006.10.10 16:22:00 -
[2626 ]
Seems obvious to me the problem isnt really with amarr, its with lasers. Fix them and there is no need for the 50%cap reduction bonus that is all too popular on amarr ships. Voila! Fixed! This thread should be renamed the ' Fix Lasers ' post
Frools
No Quarter. Axiom Empire
Posted - 2006.10.10 18:27:00 -
[2627 ]
Originally by: Critta Amarr are the *only* race with 4 types of long range turret, with the Tach II being the highest DPS long range gun in the game. 4 types of long range turret? what? amarr have 3 types of beam at cruiser and battleship level and 2 at frig level with 2 types of pulse at cruiser and battleship level and 3 at frig gallente have 3 blasters and 3 rails for every ship class minnie have 3 autos and 2 arties for every ship class
HEINZ ZERO
PsyCorp Imperium Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.10 19:21:00 -
[2628 ]
...a 3rd type of "real" low range Guns for Amarr
Mr Peanut
The New Empire R i s e
Posted - 2006.10.11 02:40:00 -
[2629 ]
Originally by: Shirazz Seems obvious to me the problem isnt really with amarr, its with lasers. Fix them and there is no need for the 50%cap reduction bonus that is all too popular on amarr ships. Voila! Fixed! This thread should be renamed the ' Fix Lasers ' post Without that bonus, we would need a massive cap recharge boost OR the devs would have to trade up some of our lows for mids to fit cap injectors. We want that bonus. The problem is that the weapons aren't good enough, even with it.
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.10.11 03:40:00 -
[2630 ]
Edited by: Kardim on 11/10/2006 03:40:55 Originally by: Critta So, what you're trying to say here is that if you're using mega pulse ... if someone gets within 30km (just to clarify here, Mega Pulse II optimal range with Multifreq, with max gunnery skills is 15k... falloff is 9.6k.. optimal + falloff = 24.6km) You're trying to tell me you do more damage with megapulse when your target is OUTSIDE your optimal + falloff? You sir are absolutely nuts. I have no problem hitting a target at 15km, with t2 (conflag) or t1 (multifreq) for large amounts of damage. Please don't talk about balance issues if you're going to make ludicrous statements like that. It's just misleading and wrong. i admit now after going ingame and looking at pulses again my range is wrong but i seriously doubt u hit targets (bs at that and deffinatly not cruisers) orbiting much under your optimal range with megapulse and MF crystals, and absolutly freaking absurd to do it w/ t2 short range crystals... a megathron moving w/ MWD in a straight line at u at your optimal or slightly above yes you will rock im, w/o mwd at your optimal orbiting u i seriously doubt ull hit 80%, 5k under optimal will be less than 50% im sure. i remember not being able to hit bs's under 7-8k except for maybe wreckings and an odd very lowball number. my numbers are off as i have barely been logging in for a few weeks because im dissapointed in ccp atm, and i havnt flown a geddon for a good while as i didnt agree with many things of the old amarr reworking, and have been specializing in inty's frigs for a good while, forgive me good rash sir for my mistake of not checking my data ingame.
Critta
Black Omega Security The OSS
Posted - 2006.10.11 08:24:00 -
[2631 ]
Originally by: Frools Originally by: Critta Amarr are the *only* race with 4 types of long range turret, with the Tach II being the highest DPS long range gun in the game. 4 types of long range turret? what? amarr have 3 types of beam at cruiser and battleship level and 2 at frig level with 2 types of pulse at cruiser and battleship level and 3 at frig gallente have 3 blasters and 3 rails for every ship class minnie have 3 autos and 2 arties for every ship class Ok, my bad, was sure there was another large beam laser... tbh though, for all intents and purposes, there are only 2 beam lasers, Mega Beam and Tachs, I very rarely use anything smaller. :D Maybe one of these day's I'll fit up a cruiser hunting BS and then maybe I'll find a use for those dual heavy beams that I never use!
Critta
Black Omega Security The OSS
Posted - 2006.10.11 08:32:00 -
[2632 ]
Originally by: Kardim i admit now after going ingame and looking at pulses again my range is wrong but i seriously doubt u hit targets (bs at that and deffinatly not cruisers) orbiting much under your optimal range with megapulse and MF crystals, and absolutly freaking absurd to do it w/ t2 short range crystals... Using webs (module or drone variety) to help control your range, or having a friend with a web is always a bonus with short range battleships, bearing in mind your relatively slow speed. Originally by: Kardim a megathron moving w/ MWD in a straight line at u at your optimal or slightly above yes you will rock im, w/o mwd at your optimal orbiting u i seriously doubt ull hit 80%, 5k under optimal will be less than 50% im sure. i remember not being able to hit bs's under 7-8k except for maybe wreckings and an odd very lowball number. That's why you have your own MWD, and a web, so you can burn at him, or away from him and control the transversal by preventing him from orbitting you, I also reapeat my point about webs... if he's webbed, he's not orbitting ;) So, the solution to mega pulse is.... don't let them get up their transversal... see, easy :P
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.11 10:35:00 -
[2633 ]
And the solution for a blasterthron is ... get in range... so easy. Just because the solution sounds simple does not necessarily mean doing it is easy, too. Webs & webbing drones are nice & fine, but other ships can use it too. Once another closerange ship has a pulsegeddon under 10 km the geddon wil be at a disadvantage, simply because it will do less dps than the other shortrange weapons.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.11 11:30:00 -
[2634 ]
Originally by: Aramendel So, with the first ship bonus: Tach II DPS w/Multifreq = 20.74 (5.4 / 12.5 * 48) 425mm Rail II w/Anitmatter = 20.71 (3.3 / 9.56 * 48 * 1.25) 1400 II w/EMP = 17.13 (6.9 / 23.63 * 44 / 0.75) So, yes, taychons are the highest dps longrange weapon. By 0.1% more than a 425 rail. And only in BASE damage. The majority of a ships HP is nowadays in armor. how very exactly to the point. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.11 11:42:00 -
[2635 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 11/10/2006 11:44:09 Of cource, a geddon has a ROF bonus and a apoc an additional turret slot, so in the end a amarr tychon BS will have a somewhat higher bse dps. But: this is only on the BS lvl. And comparing taychons to other longrange weapons is like comparing neutron blasters to other shortrange weapons - both have no real equivalents. And both do not leave much room for a tank. And if you really want to compare them the whole way there is the resistances of armor and most ship having an armortank...the highest dps ship vs (EAN2 or plated) armor is a 1400mm pest. It has even more dps on it than the tier 3 amarr ship with 8 tachyons & 25% ROF bonus will have, nevermind the alpha strike.
Avery Cane
Posted - 2006.10.11 12:51:00 -
[2636 ]
Edited by: Avery Cane on 11/10/2006 12:52:09 -------------------------------------------------------------- That's why you have your own MWD, and a web, so you can burn at him, or away from him and control the transversal by preventing him from orbitting you, I also reapeat my point about webs... if he's webbed, he's not orbitting ;) So, the solution to mega pulse is.... don't let them get up their transversal... see, easy :P -------------------------------------------------------------- if you are serious then you have never flown amarr ships. if you put a mwd on 90% of amarr ships you are dead. also if he is webbed that puts him at what 12km and under which a mega with blasters would roast any amarr ship at that range. amarr need help, every that has since know it. to me the devs havent responded because they dont know what to do. all the changes on amarr run this risk of making them overpowered. i do belive they will get fixed though.
Critta
Black Omega Security The OSS
Posted - 2006.10.11 15:09:00 -
[2637 ]
Originally by: Avery Cane Edited by: Avery Cane on 11/10/2006 12:52:09 -------------------------------------------------------------- That's why you have your own MWD, and a web, so you can burn at him, or away from him and control the transversal by preventing him from orbitting you, I also reapeat my point about webs... if he's webbed, he's not orbitting ;) So, the solution to mega pulse is.... don't let them get up their transversal... see, easy :P -------------------------------------------------------------- if you are serious then you have never flown amarr ships. if you put a mwd on 90% of amarr ships you are dead. also if he is webbed that puts him at what 12km and under which a mega with blasters would roast any amarr ship at that range. amarr need help, every that has since know it. to me the devs havent responded because they dont know what to do. all the changes on amarr run this risk of making them overpowered. i do belive they will get fixed though. I fly Amarr ships pretty much daily. MWD is fine with a cap injector to help keep it running or if you only burst it when your opponent is starting to get into an orbit. The web is there for if someone gets within 10km (as was stated in the post I was replying to), you web them, then move back to your optimal, whilst you're moving back to that range, they have no transversal, which helps to offset the fact you're not at your optimal.
Wizzkidy
Posted - 2006.10.11 16:51:00 -
[2638 ]
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 11/10/2006 16:51:25 Originally by: Critta Originally by: Avery Cane Edited by: Avery Cane on 11/10/2006 12:52:09 -------------------------------------------------------------- That's why you have your own MWD, and a web, so you can burn at him, or away from him and control the transversal by preventing him from orbitting you, I also reapeat my point about webs... if he's webbed, he's not orbitting ;) So, the solution to mega pulse is.... don't let them get up their transversal... see, easy :P -------------------------------------------------------------- if you are serious then you have never flown amarr ships. if you put a mwd on 90% of amarr ships you are dead. also if he is webbed that puts him at what 12km and under which a mega with blasters would roast any amarr ship at that range. amarr need help, every that has since know it. to me the devs havent responded because they dont know what to do. all the changes on amarr run this risk of making them overpowered. i do belive they will get fixed though. I fly Amarr ships pretty much daily. MWD is fine with a cap injector to help keep it running or if you only burst it when your opponent is starting to get into an orbit. The web is there for if someone gets within 10km (as was stated in the post I was replying to), you web them, then move back to your optimal, whilst you're moving back to that range, they have no transversal, which helps to offset the fact you're not at your optimal. No. Fitting a MWD on a geddon or apoc cause you to lose 25% of your cap without even using the thing. And guess what...ammar need cap so your gimped again compared to other races. Yes a cap injector will help but you have to have crystals in your hold also so this reduces the amount you can carry. Other races agreed have to carry ammo but tbh with ammar using cap for ALL of its mods and lasers being what they are your at a disadvantage from the start as ammar.
Belial02
Amarr133rd Ghost Wing
Posted - 2006.10.11 17:30:00 -
[2639 ]
Originally by: Tuxford ...Can we please stop bumping this now? In fact there is no need to bump anything if I don't see it straight away you can bet your arse that some other dev or a volunteer will see it and direct it to me or someone else that does these kind of things. Ok this is out of context, but still, we are supposed to believe he saw the valid arguments of this thread. We need an organized mind to setup an objective compilation of what we believe is wrong with Amarr in another one and cross fingers. Id like to see an answer from him but yeah, we cant expect to see it in that now infamous Amarr thread... /me eyes at Tuxford with noob hope in the eyes
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.11 18:40:00 -
[2640 ]
Originally by: Critta I fly Amarr ships pretty much daily. MWD is fine with a cap injector to help keep it running or if you only burst it when your opponent is starting to get into an orbit. The web is there for if someone gets within 10km (as was stated in the post I was replying to), you web them, then move back to your optimal, whilst you're moving back to that range, they have no transversal, which helps to offset the fact you're not at your optimal. Thats assuming the other closerange ship has no web itself. Which can happen, but not very often. Also, armageddon has 3 med slots: MWD, Web, Injector. Nice and fine, too bad any target will warp away because you cannot scramble it. Of cource, in for it to use the range advantage of pulse laser it needs to keep a 20k+ distance, so won't be able to scramble anyway.
Byzan Zwyth
Posted - 2006.10.11 18:49:00 -
[2641 ]
Originally by: Ti Nsi The thing that riles me is EM resists of shields and armour. Pwning shields and being crap against armour I dont like, I would prefer it to be less skewed either way. Although the same could be said about explo damage on shields, but I don't know what minmatar pilots think about that, if they do at all. they probably dont mind at all since they can just fit EMP amo ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow and look cool... Gallente because they are effective
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.10.11 19:55:00 -
[2642 ]
*votes 2/3 thermal 1/3 EM dmg on laser crystals*
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.11 20:16:00 -
[2643 ]
Putting expl on all crystals would definitely be unbalanced. Would it be unbalanced to have 1 crystal that was the inverse of EMP? And Amarrian anti-emp? EM 16 Expl 20 Therm 8 On a large t2 crystal? Give it a -velocity, -tracking, and a plus to cap cap use? Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Dragy
Posted - 2006.10.11 20:59:00 -
[2644 ]
would be really unfair cause all t2 ammo types have only 2 dmg types, not 3
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.11 21:11:00 -
[2645 ]
Originally by: Dragy would be really unfair cause all t2 ammo types have only 2 dmg types, not 3 Then how about a T1 version. Or even a T2 version that had less base damage than the others. Expl 20 Therm 16 Even that would be preferable even if it was a close range ammo only, just as EMP is close range only. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
O Olho
Posted - 2006.10.11 21:11:00 -
[2646 ]
Edited by: O Olho on 11/10/2006 21:11:12
Murukan
MinmatarThe Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.10.11 21:21:00 -
[2647 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Dragy would be really unfair cause all t2 ammo types have only 2 dmg types, not 3 Then how about a T1 version. Or even a T2 version that had less base damage than the others. Expl 20 Therm 16 Even that would be preferable even if it was a close range ammo only, just as EMP is close range only. Nyxus Yah an expl therm crystal would make you pretty happy i bet considering how easy it is to change crystals. Just blast away the shields with em dmg then switch over to expl crystals when they hit armor. Amarr getting explosive dmg is stupid. Emp ammo isn't that great either considering half of the dmg it does is heavily resisted by shields and the other half of it is resisted by armor. In the end it's really a lazy mans ammo who doesn't want to switch stuff up.In rust we trust!!!
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.11 21:45:00 -
[2648 ]
If EMP ammo isn't so great, and is just for lazy people then would you object to: 16EM 20EXPL If it's not that great like you say, and half is resisted well on armor and half on shields. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.11 22:11:00 -
[2649 ]
Originally by: Murukan Yah an expl therm crystal would make you pretty happy i bet considering how easy it is to change crystals. Just blast away the shields with em dmg then switch over to expl crystals when they hit armor. I doubt many people would object to a 10 sec recharge time for crystals then. Especially since it does not work correctly with t2 crystals anyway. (I still think "moving" ~15% base EM resistance from armor to shields would be a better way to balance things instead giving amarr an exp crystal, though.)
Miri Tirzan
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.11 23:42:00 -
[2650 ]
I still think it all that is really needed is to switch from EM/THERM to THERM/EM. This is still worse then any other damage type but better than it is now. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Yamaeda
Posted - 2006.10.12 01:22:00 -
[2651 ]
Edited by: Yamaeda on 12/10/2006 01:23:48 Originally by: Nyxus Then how about a T1 version. Or even a T2 version that had less base damage than the others. Expl 20 Therm 16 Even that would be preferable even if it was a close range ammo only, just as EMP is close range only. Nyxus I've thought in the same lines, but i actually dont want to change the amarrian em/the basis. What i do want to do however, is change some balancing. All hybrid ammo has 50% more primary damage then secondary, from the -50% range 28/20 via +0% 20/12 to the +60% range 12/8. It has been suggested that amarr should get more thermal, but i have a variant of that idea. Crystals goes from -50% 28/20 via 0% 20/12 to +60% 20/0 as we all know. (same total damage on all ranges as hybrids) Having full EM on long range crystals isn't all bad, it rips shields bad. The -range crystals scale identical to hybrids though, and this is where i'd like a change! If the longer crystals only scale damage by lower their thermal part, how about if the lower ones work the same way? Applying this idea crystals would look like: +60% 20/0 em/the +0% 20/12 -50% 20/28 alt. 24/24 Studying amarr's sturdy ships and their aversion to ew it's strange that they have weak sensors and are easily disrupted, logic says they should build ships that dont rely or are affected (as much) by ew, thus a sensor strength boost is needed by a few points. Having the short range weapons with the best range and worst tracking and the long range with shortest range and best tracking is both a blessing and a curse, and in both cases maneuvering is of great importance. It would be logical if amarr BS's got +10m/s. Some say we are severely nerfed, but i dont agree, a few small touch-ups and we're good to go. (btw it seems tracking computers, or T2 ones, dont add tracking properly, any1 else noticed this?) /Y
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.12 01:33:00 -
[2652 ]
Originally by: Aramendel I doubt many people would object to a 10 sec recharge time for crystals then. Especially since it does not work correctly with t2 crystals anyway. (I still think "moving" ~15% base EM resistance from armor to shields would be a better way to balance things instead giving amarr an exp crystal, though.) I am really really really hoping the the Kali UI changes allow for preset hotswaps. Some of my most ferverent prayers would be answered. I agree that -20% EM to armor and +20% Shields would be VERY nice. This is kind of a sidenote. I constantly see Matari saying that EMP is really kinda crap ammo, and not all that usefull. And I can't help asking "umm....if it's so crap, can we get a set of that too?" Even if they changed EM resists I don't think an EM 16/EXPL 20 crystal would be overpowered since the almost universal opinion that EMP is almost completely marginal to begin with. One mans trash slave is another man's treasured slave and all that. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Nifel
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.12 05:55:00 -
[2653 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Aramendel I doubt many people would object to a 10 sec recharge time for crystals then. Especially since it does not work correctly with t2 crystals anyway. (I still think "moving" ~15% base EM resistance from armor to shields would be a better way to balance things instead giving amarr an exp crystal, though.) I am really really really hoping the the Kali UI changes allow for preset hotswaps. Some of my most ferverent prayers would be answered. I agree that -20% EM to armor and +20% Shields would be VERY nice. This is kind of a sidenote. I constantly see Matari saying that EMP is really kinda crap ammo, and not all that usefull. And I can't help asking "umm....if it's so crap, can we get a set of that too?" Even if they changed EM resists I don't think an EM 16/EXPL 20 crystal would be overpowered since the almost universal opinion that EMP is almost completely marginal to begin with. One mans trash slave is another man's treasured slave and all that. Nyxus If you got the reload time of projectiles I'm sure noone would mind. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.12 09:46:00 -
[2654 ]
well it is a discussion forum and as such people including myself throw ideas around for input and we also spot flaws and bonuses in other peoples ideas and discuss them. it doesnt make either you or me or anyone else more or less lunatic. if you do so maybe you need proffessional help because you are reading way to much into the discussions. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Dragy
Posted - 2006.10.12 10:19:00 -
[2655 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Dragy would be really unfair cause all t2 ammo types have only 2 dmg types, not 3 Then how about a T1 version. Or even a T2 version that had less base damage than the others. Expl 20 Therm 16 Even that would be preferable even if it was a close range ammo only, just as EMP is close range only. Nyxus Still would be unfair. Energy turrets are more damaging and have bigger range. It doesn't matter that apoc deals more dps with ac's then with energy turrets ... cause it's not a ship that is meant for damage, but for tanking ! *cough* used in missions often *cough*. And look at minny race if you ever get that crystal ... their ammo usage is so high that they run out of it before end of a battle, you use cap for weapons, but don't need to care about ammo cause there is none. This is not a solution. If you get this crystal ac's should be boosted (less ammo usage, more dps).
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.12 10:52:00 -
[2656 ]
Originally by: Dragy Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Dragy would be really unfair cause all t2 ammo types have only 2 dmg types, not 3 Then how about a T1 version. Or even a T2 version that had less base damage than the others. Expl 20 Therm 16 Even that would be preferable even if it was a close range ammo only, just as EMP is close range only. Nyxus Still would be unfair. Energy turrets are more damaging and have bigger range. It doesn't matter that apoc deals more dps with ac's then with energy turrets ... cause it's not a ship that is meant for damage, but for tanking ! *cough* used in missions often *cough*. And look at minny race if you ever get that crystal ... their ammo usage is so high that they run out of it before end of a battle, you use cap for weapons, but don't need to care about ammo cause there is none. This is not a solution. If you get this crystal ac's should be boosted (less ammo usage, more dps). what do you mean??? "dont need to care about ammo" ??? so toting around with equivilent of 16k ammo valued 60-70mill everytime nomatter how short or long the fight is doesnt matter? any other race can grab a few hundred ammo and not loose 70mill in ammo value alone if they get popped. amarr pilots got the worst tanking BS, they dont have the best dmg dealer, they have the easiest to jam, they have to carry a extra BS in ammo value. when will balance come? Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Dragy
Posted - 2006.10.12 11:34:00 -
[2657 ]
what you've been smoking ? 1) the t2 crystal prices are irrelevant here. it's caused by t2 market, not that amarr suck 2) in many battles minmatar just dont have enough ammo ... due to too big ammo usage, small cargohold and if you decide to fit 800 cap boosters (which is a must) you really can't pick your damage type. 3) now was talking mostly about t1 ammo. you think that you have the worst tanking bs ? think again. compare tempests, apocs and megathrons tank.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.10.12 13:27:00 -
[2658 ]
Originally by: Dragy what you've been smoking ? 1) the t2 crystal prices are irrelevant here. it's caused by t2 market, not that amarr suck It still is an factor. The game is not only t1 alone. And does not change a single thing that amarr have to take 1000 shot worth of t2 ammo per gun with them. Quote: 2) in many battles minmatar just dont have enough ammo ... due to too big ammo usage, small cargohold and if you decide to fit 800 cap boosters (which is a must) you really can't pick your damage type. And amarr BSs need 70% of the cap/sec of one LAR just to keep their weapons going. If you think their slightly higher cap balances this out think again. Vs the typhoon the geddon has killed it's cap advantage in 10 seconds laserfire and it's slightly higher cap regeneration does not even counter 10% of the capsuse of 7 megapulse II. Amarr BS can hold more 800er chargers than minnie ships, yes, but they also need them more often.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.12 13:27:00 -
[2659 ]
Originally by: Dragy Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Dragy would be really unfair cause all t2 ammo types have only 2 dmg types, not 3 Then how about a T1 version. Or even a T2 version that had less base damage than the others. Expl 20 Therm 16 Even that would be preferable even if it was a close range ammo only, just as EMP is close range only. Nyxus Still would be unfair. Energy turrets are more damaging and have bigger range. It doesn't matter that apoc deals more dps with ac's then with energy turrets ... cause it's not a ship that is meant for damage, but for tanking ! *cough* used in missions often *cough*. And look at minny race if you ever get that crystal ... their ammo usage is so high that they run out of it before end of a battle, you use cap for weapons, but don't need to care about ammo cause there is none. This is not a solution. If you get this crystal ac's should be boosted (less ammo usage, more dps). Actually Dragy, please note that this would be the same as EMP. exremely close range, and ACs would outrange it. In addition, the base damage of the proposed crystal is actually 8 less than most others. HAIL: -50% range, 48EXPL, 12 KIN Barrage 0% range, 24EXPL, 20 KIN NewCrystal: -30% to 50% range, 20EXPL, 16THERM/EM As a close range ammo, it is SEVERELY less damaging than Void or Hail. When compared to long range ammo, it has less damage and half the range. If you run the numbers on straight DPS it has a pretty significant impact, with less range than say ACs. I guess I don't see how an EXPL crystal implemented in such a way would be overpowered, especailly when the almost univeral opinion is that the stronger Matari version is marginal at best. But maybe someone can show me how it would be. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Ganandorf
Posted - 2006.10.12 13:28:00 -
[2660 ]
actually apoc is no better at tanking then a tempest or a thron because of cap injectors.... 2 lar = 2 lar period, make it therm/em instead of em/therm
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.12 13:57:00 -
[2661 ]
Originally by: Dragy what you've been smoking ? 1) the t2 crystal prices are irrelevant here. it's caused by t2 market, not that amarr suck 2) in many battles minmatar just dont have enough ammo ... due to too big ammo usage, small cargohold and if you decide to fit 800 cap boosters (which is a must) you really can't pick your damage type. 3) now was talking mostly about t1 ammo. you think that you have the worst tanking bs ? think again. compare tempests, apocs and megathrons tank. if you want to compete anywhere near other BS and kill any you will need all dmg you can dish out with a amarr ship due to the huge EM boost resist on armor due to EAMN2+DCU tanks. and any ship with 5 lowslots to dedicate to tanking can have as good a tank as a apoc. 2*LARII+2*EAMN2+DCU all other races still do as much dmg to armor as before EAMN2+DCU tanks except Amarr since the EAMN2+DCU Tanks now boosts armor up to same levels as the other resists. and amarr needs more engineering mods to fit their guns+tank then other races. now i ask you "what the heck are you smoking?" Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Promethian child
AmarrOld Galactic Earth Regiment Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.12 17:53:00 -
[2662 ]
^^^^^ what he says -------------------- One Empire, One Emperor, One Faith, One Amarr... A Whole Universe Under One rule. Keter of the Ordo Quaesitoris.
Jazz Bo
CaldariCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.10.12 19:11:00 -
[2663 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Dragy what you've been smoking ? 1) the t2 crystal prices are irrelevant here. it's caused by t2 market, not that amarr suck It still is an factor. The game is not only t1 alone. And does not change a single thing that amarr have to take 1000 shot worth of t2 ammo per gun with them. True. But then you can still buy two Tachyon IIs and two Aurora crystals for the price of one 425mm II. Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
Kirov VIII
Posted - 2006.10.12 19:41:00 -
[2664 ]
Quote: True. But then you can still buy two Tachyon IIs and two Aurora crystals for the price of one 425mm II. It's normal, laser is very very useless ... Price is very low. Named, T2, ... But ammo t2 amarr have a bug, sorry. 6 lenses prod each day 1/2 it's too low compare at 5k ammo t2 per run !. Too high lost when your ship explode and it's very too long for fitt a fleet with t2 ammo when you have only one bpo. 6 lenses by 1d 1/2 2d for fitt a apo with your own lense !!! Compare a instant fitting of 10-15 another BS with only one prod. (~30 ammo by turret * 8 = ~240 ammo per ship => 20 ships fitted but lense = 0.5 ships fitted !!!) I think which the damage Explo/Thermal is a good compromise ! Amarr = Explo/thermal Caldari = ALL Gallente = Kine/thermal Minmatar = ALL The second solution is a change of all base resist NPC/Player for increase the Em/thermal damage.
Byzan Zwyth
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.12 20:04:00 -
[2665 ]
I dont like the idea of expl crystals but I think changing the em/therm ratio is a good idea ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow - and look cool... Gallente because they are effective
Viktor Tessela
Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.12 20:29:00 -
[2666 ]
I think the biggest problem with Amarr as they are is that, even when the problems are obvious, the solutions are not. The most consistent problem I've seen with amarr is that they have no real way to do other types of damage aside from EM/thermal, weighted heavily EM. Gallente get drones, caldari get missiles, minmatar get projectiles. Amarr? Nada. And to make it worse, at T2 half of our ships (*cough*khanid*cough*) function as effectively minmatar, requiring far different skills to use effectively than our 'norm'. Also notice that the drones, missiles, and projectiles have 3 other things going for them - no cap use. There's no easy solution to this either. The one I'd favor would shake up the other races as well - turning drones and missiles into a further 'dividing point'. Have amarr/gallente get a predominantly drone focus aside from their main turrets, while caldari/minmatar get a predominantly missile focus. Then again, the minmatar are jacks of all trades, and with this change.. they won't be. Giving amarr their own offensive specialty would require something outright new to be thought up. Maybe make them the subsystem-targetting kings - but that concept isn't even off the drawing board yet, if it ever will be. Potentially it would make the amarr defensive bonus more meaningful - the longer combat draws out, the more favorable it is to the amarr since they'd be knocking out armor hardeners, etc. Other races would be able to do the same, just like others can use drones - but like gallente, amarr would be the ones whose ships and bonuses favor it most. I find it sad that the most common suggestions more or less involve nerfing armor-tanking. That's the one thing the amarr really ARE best at. :D
TIOOO
CaldariShadow Company Alektorophobia
Posted - 2006.10.12 21:09:00 -
[2667 ]
Originally by: Viktor Tessela I think the biggest problem with Amarr as they are is that, even when the problems are obvious, the solutions are not. The most consistent problem I've seen with amarr is that they have no real way to do other types of damage aside from EM/thermal, weighted heavily EM. Gallente get drones, caldari get missiles, minmatar get projectiles. Amarr? Nada. And to make it worse, at T2 half of our ships (*cough*khanid*cough*) function as effectively minmatar, requiring far different skills to use effectively than our 'norm'. Also notice that the drones, missiles, and projectiles have 3 other things going for them - no cap use. There's no easy solution to this either. The one I'd favor would shake up the other races as well - turning drones and missiles into a further 'dividing point'. Have amarr/gallente get a predominantly drone focus aside from their main turrets, while caldari/minmatar get a predominantly missile focus. Then again, the minmatar are jacks of all trades, and with this change.. they won't be. Giving amarr their own offensive specialty would require something outright new to be thought up. Maybe make them the subsystem-targetting kings - but that concept isn't even off the drawing board yet, if it ever will be. Potentially it would make the amarr defensive bonus more meaningful - the longer combat draws out, the more favorable it is to the amarr since they'd be knocking out armor hardeners, etc. Other races would be able to do the same, just like others can use drones - but like gallente, amarr would be the ones whose ships and bonuses favor it most. I find it sad that the most common suggestions more or less involve nerfing armor-tanking. That's the one thing the amarr really ARE best at. :D speaking of armour maybe where all thinking about this wrong, why not lower the amount of cap it takes for armour hardeners and repairers to work, as all of you know who do fly ammar fireing and tanking is a real pain in the ass we clearly cant do it i dont care what you raven pilots say you can use all yoru cap on your tank so you dont know how it feels. so why not instead of changing the guns on the ammar change the armour give the ammar a bonus on tanking for example for each level of repair it takes less cap tp use it for one run? just a quick idea and now ill let you lot rip it apart :DSignature Removed due size. Limits are 400 * 120 pixels and max. filesize is 24000bytes. - Eshtir
TIOOO
CaldariShadow Company Alektorophobia
Posted - 2006.10.12 21:28:00 -
[2668 ]
Edited by: TIOOO on 12/10/2006 21:30:25 Originally by: Yamaeda Originally by: Viktor Tessela The most consistent problem I've seen with amarr is that they have no real way to do other types of damage aside from EM/thermal, weighted heavily EM. Gallente get drones, caldari get missiles, minmatar get projectiles. Amarr? Nada. And to make it worse, at T2 half of our ships (*cough*khanid*cough*) function as effectively minmatar, requiring far different skills to use effectively than our 'norm'. Also notice that the drones, missiles, and projectiles have 3 other things going for them - no cap use. One of Amarrs relative weaknesses is the cap usage, as you say. How about reintroducing cap usage on projectiles and missiles? Damage per cap is after all infinite on those, and that in it self is a bit too good. /Y yes but if they did that all the raven pilots would go like this ''YOU CANT DO THAT! I WONT BE ABLE TO TANK 24/7 AND FIRE MY TORPS ITS NOT FAIR'' lol i can imagine the faces of the pvp raven when the cap gets lower and lower and they actually think for once uh oh..... better tunr off my torps for a second....Signature Removed due size. Limits are 400 * 120 pixels and max. filesize is 24000bytes. - Eshtir
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.10.12 21:37:00 -
[2669 ]
Originally by: Jazz Bo True. But then you can still buy two Tachyon IIs and two Aurora crystals for the price of one 425mm II. Also true. But this should change with invention. The laser crystal price/problematic is not exactly due to t2 producers pushing prices, though, but due to the lower volume you can produce per day. It will probably fall in price as well, but it's price relation to other t2 ammo should stay the same due to this.
Viktor Tessela
Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.12 22:53:00 -
[2670 ]
Originally by: Yamaeda One of Amarrs relative weaknesses is the cap usage, as you say. How about reintroducing cap usage on projectiles and missiles? Damage per cap is after all infinite on those, and that in it self is a bit too good. /Y I don't see the point, really. It's not that minmatar or caldari ships are operating above the curve. (Okay, you can make the argument with caldari.) It's that the amarr aren't up to snuff. Cap on missiles and projectiles would just shift Caldari's current state as head of the pack over to gallente - unless there's a way to tie drones to cap use. And who wants that? There's already enough of a problem with the debilitating nature of energy vamps that a nerf's upcoming - no point in exacerbating it. I don't even see cap use as the main problem for the race. Yes, our lasers take a ton of cap to use, but that's only part of the problem - their fitting requirements are a pain in the ass, the damage they do is pathetic in an age of EANM2 and near universal armor tanking, their stock bonus is the reduction of a pure negative (-cap) rather than the addition of a positive (+range, damage, etc), the adaptability of their infinite T1 ammo supply is negated by PVP always being either an extreme short/long range affair. But the worst part is they're all we really have. For gallente it's hybrids or drones. For caldari, hybrids or missiles. Minmatar are jack of all trades, with the advantages and disadvantages that go with it. For Amarr, it's energy weapons or living in an arbitrator. I actually get the feeling that, once upon a time, energy pulse weapons were meant to be to the amarr what drones are to the gallente, missiles are to the caldari, and the general ship designs and projectile style are to the minmatar. They fit the general theme of missiles/drones - they can do all 4 of the damage types but only one on a single weapon, they function entirely different from turrets with specific advantages/disadvantages. They also fit the amarrian style of being energy-dependent and very defensive (good against drones, tacklers, and - so I hear - even missiles.) Maybe that's what we're going to see sometime. A general reduction in cap use for energy weapons, and the introduction of pulse weapon bonuses on ships. Hell, I could really get into that depending on how it's done!
Shin Ra
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2006.10.12 23:01:00 -
[2671 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Jazz Bo True. But then you can still buy two Tachyon IIs and two Aurora crystals for the price of one 425mm II. Also true. But this should change with invention. The laser crystal price/problematic is not exactly due to t2 producers pushing prices, though, but due to the lower volume you can produce per day. It will probably fall in price as well, but it's price relation to other t2 ammo should stay the same due to this. I'm not too sure, at the same time Invention comes out, the Rokh does too. Meaning that both Caldari and Gallante fleet setups will use 425mm IIs. This should mean the prices of these guns increase even more. I would expect demand to increase for 1400 IIs too as having 8 on the new tier 3 bs will mean more are lost and more must be purchased. Tachyons will probably change least in terms of price.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.10.13 00:25:00 -
[2672 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 13/10/2006 00:25:47 Shortterm after patch there will be prolly an increase in price (note to self: buy cheap 425s II before patch to speculate) since the invention stuff will take some time to kick in, but afterwards? Longterm the bigger demand should be no issue. Unlike the t2 BPOs the inventions copies won't be limited in any way. If there is twice more demand than for other t2 turrets there will also be twice as many people trying to make invention BPCs of it. Higher demand only leads in higher prices if there is a limiting factor.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.13 03:43:00 -
[2673 ]
Cap is an issue for both Gallente and Amarr as battles last longer and longer. Thats why Controlled Burst needs to be boosted to 10% per level from 5% per level. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Yamaeda
Posted - 2006.10.13 03:47:00 -
[2674 ]
Originally by: Viktor Tessela I don't see the point, really. It's not that minmatar or caldari ships are operating above the curve. (Okay, you can make the argument with caldari.) It's that the amarr aren't up to snuff. Cap on missiles and projectiles would just shift Caldari's current state as head of the pack over to gallente - unless there's a way to tie drones to cap use. (projectiles used cap before and some of the missile launchers) The point is that balance is relative, and (re-)introducing cap usage of projectiles and missiles is first of all consistant, all weapons then use cap. Secondly, one of Amarrs complaints is that we cant tank while shooting due to cap usage, and this would to a certain degree create the same problem with the others. Thus they'd be brought down a little to "our" level. It's not the only fix needed, but it's a step in the right direction. If cap gets more important our extra low slot is worth more. Why do you see Apocs with AC's? It uses no cap. It should very rarly be profitable to use "wrong" weapon, and i assume blaster apocs are quite uncommon. The difference is cap usage. Omni tanking hurts amarr, yes, but it's a problem in eanm stacking and the fact that active hardeners dont gain from compensation skills. I'd rather see a change to them than compensation on lasers. The mid range is a problem with amarr, especially combined with rather slow ships. Amarrs vulnerability to EW is also a problem, mayb ethe EW nerf will fix that, but as i said in a previous post, it feels like Amarr needs a couple points more sensor strengh and +10m/s on their ships. /Y
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.13 04:42:00 -
[2675 ]
Edited by: Godar Marak on 13/10/2006 04:42:14 I think the stacking hurts Amarr just as much if not more than omni tank. We used to be able to fit enough damage mods to inflict injury at medium range, out of scramble range. Now people will just go 'pfffft you fire at me I warp off' or close in for the kill inside of your laser range and bbq you. And as far as cap, that wouldnt have been an issue without the stacking nerf as we used to be able to pwn people before our cap had run dry.
Commander Thrawn
Tarnak inc.
Posted - 2006.10.13 05:19:00 -
[2676 ]
almost 100 YEEEEEEEEEEEHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.13 14:29:00 -
[2677 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 13/10/2006 14:30:30 Originally by: Godar Marak Edited by: Godar Marak on 13/10/2006 04:42:14 I think the stacking hurts Amarr just as much if not more than omni tank. We used to be able to fit enough damage mods to inflict injury at medium range, out of scramble range. Now people will just go 'pfffft you fire at me I warp off' or close in for the kill inside of your laser range and bbq you. And as far as cap, that wouldnt have been an issue without the stacking nerf as we used to be able to pwn people before our cap had run dry. Indeed - All it takes is some punk ass to chance his arm, and warp away freely if in danger. Nowadays you need at the very least 28km disrupters fitted to your geddon to catch anybody. And such disrupters alone cost far far more than your ship. Other BS's dont really have this issue because they actually have enough mids to be able to dictate rage to an extent. Not so the pvp ammar :) ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Elve Sorrow
AmarrShinra Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.10.13 14:31:00 -
[2678 ]
5 Months later and you lot are still at it? Give up, train Minmatar. Its what i did.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.13 14:33:00 -
[2679 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow 5 Months later and you lot are still at it? Give up, train Minmatar. Its what i did. I have already trained caldari. Now I just need to convince ccp to refund me my amarr skillpoints :) ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.13 14:53:00 -
[2680 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow 5 Months later and you lot are still at it? Give up, train Minmatar. Its what i did. Meh. I did Caldari. I decided that if I was going to train a second race I wanted to be uber. Raven with Rage and Javelin is idiotically overpowered but I decided that if they were going to leave it in, I was going to abuse the hell outta it. The only Amarr ships that I still use are the Curse/Pilgrim, and those are really Gallente when you come down to it. Of course, I have also dabbled Gallente as well. ECM/Nos Domi with T2 Ogres 4tw. I still get sad when I look at my Domi and see that it has better resists, better offences, more useable cap, and the same repping power of my Apoc. After I finish up BC 5 I am debating on what Command ship to go to. New Nighthawk or Eos/Astarte. I will buy an Absolution (Damnation pretty much sucks) but as I am not holding too high a hope for it since several close Amarr specced friends have said that it suffers from the same thing the Zealot does, super high EM resists render it's supposed damage specialty into merely mediocre while retaining all the negatives. I am seriously considering training up for the Phoon, just because it looks fun and then I can shut up all the whiners who say it sucks simply because they lack the sp to fly it. It needs some adjusting, but not nearly as much as their screaming would arrent. MWD, siege II, dual 425II, ogre II, cap inj and a full tank with just one RCU II. They don't know how good they have it. If the Tier II minnie BC is a speed BC (looks like it) I will prolly train up just for that ship. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Yamaeda
Posted - 2006.10.13 15:04:00 -
[2681 ]
Edited by: Yamaeda on 13/10/2006 15:03:44 Originally by: Elve Sorrow 5 Months later and you lot are still at it? Give up, train Minmatar. Its what i did. That doesn't solve any balancing problems, does it? "Bolters suck, we cant damage anything or fit it on our ships" "Use Sonics" Bolters would still suck. /Y
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.13 15:20:00 -
[2682 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow 5 Months later and you lot are still at it? Give up, train Minmatar. Its what i did. working on gallente to carriers now but that doesnt mean i wont moan about amarr as much as i can until they either let me respec all my amarr skillpoints or fire tuxford or if he by any divine intervention would happen to actually fix amarr. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.13 16:09:00 -
[2683 ]
Originally by: Xendie but that doesnt mean i wont moan about amarr as much as i can until they either let me respec all my amarr skillpoints or fire tuxford or if he by any divine intervention would happen to actually fix amarr. Why not do all three? ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Joe Bloggers
CaldariLegion Federation Amen Anera
Posted - 2006.10.13 16:11:00 -
[2684 ]
Originally by: Yamaeda Edited by: Yamaeda on 13/10/2006 15:03:44 Originally by: Elve Sorrow 5 Months later and you lot are still at it? Give up, train Minmatar. Its what i did. That doesn't solve any balancing problems, does it? "Bolters suck, we cant damage anything or fit it on our ships" "Use Sonics" Bolters would still suck. /Y I take it the problem is being ignored in a hope it goes away rather than a solution? Well Thank goodness I picked Caldari. I was inch's close to picking Amarr! Just an Average Joe!
Lim LiLian
Posted - 2006.10.13 18:03:00 -
[2685 ]
Can we either unnerf Amarr or nerf Tux? Seems like no one's bothered on this thread. (Hope it reaches 100 though)
Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
Posted - 2006.10.13 18:47:00 -
[2686 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow 5 Months later and you lot are still at it? Give up, train Minmatar. Its what i did. QFT It's sad but true
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.13 19:46:00 -
[2687 ]
Originally by: Lim LiLian Can we either unnerf Amarr or nerf Tux? Seems like no one's bothered on this thread. (Hope it reaches 100 though) Thats not really fair to Tux. I think he has done a pretty good job on ships so far. And honestly, do you REALLY think he has missed what is most likely the largest thread ever on the boards? I am sure he has been looking at Amarr. He and his team are probably struggling a bit with what to do about it, since the issues are many smaller problems (Coercer pg, frig lasers, med beam lasers, etc) that take a lot of time to balance appropriately and more systemic problems like EANII and low slots MUCH less valuable than mids. He also wants to not derail threads and have threads with content over gibberish. Of course the last two are pipe dreams. We will do both with or without him. Tux's only real downfall is communication. He posts MUCH more than most devs (and we love him for it, and miss him when he doesn't) but what the posts are lacking is organization. On one hand he doesn't want 1000 "omg Tux READ!" posts so he posts sporadically. But while that may reduce the his overall number of posts and the "READ MEH" posts it is also ends up seeming haphazard. What I would like to see from Tux. 1 "Tux" thread a week saying "Lets Discuss Insert (ecm/Maelstromslots/Amarr/deimos/raven/etc) and at the end list what next weeks topic will be. 2 In that thread, a short begining post giving his thoughts on the ship/mod in question, what he is thinking of doing, what he would like the end result to be (if he knows) and what he doesn't want (if he knows). It's easier for the community to stay realistic/on topic if we know what our limitations are. 3 a few short posts from Tux throughout the week responding back to posters. This gives a lively topic of debate a week. It builds community support and consensus (even with the given naysayers on any topic). It lets us see the "thought process" behind the ships and mods balance team that Tux leads. It makes the community feel like we matter, our opinions count, and that CCP hears us. Without any posts it oftentimes feels like we are ****ing in the proverbial wind. That can be disheartening. In the meantime, onward towards 100 pages. When Amarr decide to do something, we go all out with our fanaticism burning inside us like the light from 1000 suns. Whatever the cause, whatever the need Amarr will do it 100 times better than any other race. Even whining. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
Posted - 2006.10.13 19:57:00 -
[2688 ]
Nyxus - I agree with your post which has some good ideas. Althugh I'm sure Tux has seen the Amarr thread (how could he not) and I'd like to believe that work on amarr is happening, some indication that it's happening - some acknowledgement that there is / may be some change required would be very welcome. After all - if Tux has the time to respond to gallente and caldari threads (four responses in one thread, the first within an hour) he has the time to say "I'll look at it" to the amarr thread - especially given the amount of time and thought that some of the posters have put into their suggestions.
Viktor Tessela
Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.13 20:18:00 -
[2689 ]
Originally by: ****c Nyxus - I agree with your post which has some good ideas. Althugh I'm sure Tux has seen the Amarr thread (how could he not) and I'd like to believe that work on amarr is happening, some indication that it's happening - some acknowledgement that there is / may be some change required would be very welcome. After all - if Tux has the time to respond to gallente and caldari threads (four responses in one thread, the first within an hour) he has the time to say "I'll look at it" to the amarr thread - especially given the amount of time and thought that some of the posters have put into their suggestions. Well, the problems with Amarr are more fundamental and difficult to solve. I imagine - even if he recognizes that Amarr are in need of some fixing - he'd rather not wade into the thread with a 'Okay, you're right. I have no idea what we're going to do about this, but uh.. working on it.' For all we know we'll see changes to Amarr-based equip in Kali. It looks like at least some ship changes are going in, after all.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.13 21:21:00 -
[2690 ]
Originally by: Viktor Tessela Originally by: ****c Nyxus - I agree with your post which has some good ideas. Althugh I'm sure Tux has seen the Amarr thread (how could he not) and I'd like to believe that work on amarr is happening, some indication that it's happening - some acknowledgement that there is / may be some change required would be very welcome. After all - if Tux has the time to respond to gallente and caldari threads (four responses in one thread, the first within an hour) he has the time to say "I'll look at it" to the amarr thread - especially given the amount of time and thought that some of the posters have put into their suggestions. Well, the problems with Amarr are more fundamental and difficult to solve. I imagine - even if he recognizes that Amarr are in need of some fixing - he'd rather not wade into the thread with a 'Okay, you're right. I have no idea what we're going to do about this, but uh.. working on it.' For all we know we'll see changes to Amarr-based equip in Kali. It looks like at least some ship changes are going in, after all. The reality is that there is going to be no real drastic change for Amarr - and even if Tux said today that "OMG! Amarr suxz0r!" it will be around 6-12 months before it gets passed through. And as a pure amarr armour tanker, It surpriesed me it took me a month and a half to have uber shield and t2 torp skills. I guess I may as well make use of my gunnery tree by training hybrid turret now :) ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Murukan
MinmatarThe Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.10.13 21:22:00 -
[2691 ]
Edited by: Murukan on 13/10/2006 21:24:23 K so you want some armor resist removed. on bships ( i could be wrong and will probably be flamed if i am) you get 60%exp resist on shield 10% on armor for em you get 0% shield 60% armor. So if you want some of that armor em moved to shields i would kindly ask that the 10% extra resist that is given on explosive is removed. Also lets not forget thermal/kinetic. Thermal is 35% on armor and shields, while kinetic is 35% armor, 40% shields. Please increase thermal's resist on armor please to bring it into balance with the other resists. If those resist inaccuracies get fixed then sure move a little em from armor to shield, maybe like 10%. In fact in terms of base resist total em is the least resisted. A total of 60% resistence to em is distributed between armor and shield, 60/0 respectively. 70% explosive 10/60. 70% thermal 35/35. And 75% kinetic 35/40. So i guess you could say more EM resistence is needed! Explosive crystals? No, best way to debunk this since balance obviously isn't a discussion you want to hear, is how the hell does a laser produce it? Lasers are beams of light, they heat (thermal) and give off radiation (em). They don't just magically explode.In rust we trust!!!
Trance Gemmini
Posted - 2006.10.13 21:22:00 -
[2692 ]
I hope the Abaddon is an 8/5/7 with a 125 m3 drone bay.. I could then happily live with my EM skewed pew pew pew.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.13 21:23:00 -
[2693 ]
Originally by: Trance Gemmini I hope the Abaddon is an 8/5/7 with a 125 m3 drone bay.. I could then happily live with my EM skewed pew pew pew. Yeah - 125m3 drone bay turns the abaddon into a 205km Drone Sniper. Something you can already do with a geddon just now. ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
without
Posted - 2006.10.13 21:24:00 -
[2694 ]
drop 10% from armor EM add 10% to armor exp drop 10% from shields EXP and add 10% to shields EM chance apoc cap bonous to 10% optimal range. fix medium lasers fitting requirments [when was the last time you saw an apoc use medium lasers?]
OrangeAfroMan
Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
Posted - 2006.10.13 21:30:00 -
[2695 ]
Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 13/10/2006 21:31:13 Originally by: Murukan Edited by: Murukan on 13/10/2006 21:24:23 K so you want some armor resist removed. on bships ( i could be wrong and will probably be flamed if i am) you get 60%exp resist on shield 10% on armor for em you get 0% shield 60% armor. So if you want some of that armor em moved to shields i would kindly ask that the 10% extra resist that is given on explosive is removed. Also lets not forget thermal/kinetic. Thermal is 35% on armor and shields, while kinetic is 35% armor, 40% shields. Please increase thermal's resist on armor please to bring it into balance with the other resists. If those resist inaccuracies get fixed then sure move a little em from armor to shield, maybe like 10%. In fact in terms of base resist total em is the least resisted. A total of 60% resistence to em is distributed between armor and shield, 60/0 respectively. 70% explosive 10/60. 70% thermal 35/35. And 75% kinetic 35/40. So i guess you could say more EM resistence is needed! Explosive crystals? No, best way to debunk this since balance obviously isn't a discussion you want to hear, is how the hell does a laser produce it? Lasers are beams of light, they heat (thermal) and give off radiation (em). They don't just magically explode. See?? You're all a bunch of noobs, now stop complaining about some inbalance that doesn't exist!!! Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
Mahavy Seth
AmarrImperial Academy
Posted - 2006.10.13 22:18:00 -
[2696 ]
Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Lim LiLian Can we either unnerf Amarr or nerf Tux? Seems like no one's bothered on this thread. (Hope it reaches 100 though) Thats not really fair to Tux. I think he has done a pretty good job on ships so far. And honestly, do you REALLY think he has missed what is most likely the largest thread ever on the boards? I am sure he has been looking at Amarr. He and his team are probably struggling a bit with what to do about it, since the issues are many smaller problems (Coercer pg, frig lasers, med beam lasers, etc) that take a lot of time to balance appropriately and more systemic problems like EANII and low slots MUCH less valuable than mids. He also wants to not derail threads and have threads with content over gibberish. Of course the last two are pipe dreams. We will do both with or without him. Tux's only real downfall is communication. He posts MUCH more than most devs (and we love him for it, and miss him when he doesn't) but what the posts are lacking is organization. On one hand he doesn't want 1000 "omg Tux READ!" posts so he posts sporadically. But while that may reduce the his overall number of posts and the "READ MEH" posts it is also ends up seeming haphazard. What I would like to see from Tux. 1 "Tux" thread a week saying "Lets Discuss Insert (ecm/Maelstromslots/Amarr/deimos/raven/etc) and at the end list what next weeks topic will be. 2 In that thread, a short begining post giving his thoughts on the ship/mod in question, what he is thinking of doing, what he would like the end result to be (if he knows) and what he doesn't want (if he knows). It's easier for the community to stay realistic/on topic if we know what our limitations are. 3 a few short posts from Tux throughout the week responding back to posters. This gives a lively topic of debate a week. It builds community support and consensus (even with the given naysayers on any topic). It lets us see the "thought process" behind the ships and mods balance team that Tux leads. It makes the community feel like we matter, our opinions count, and that CCP hears us. Without any posts it oftentimes feels like we are ****ing in the proverbial wind. That can be disheartening. In the meantime, onward towards 100 pages. When Amarr decide to do something, we go all out with our fanaticism burning inside us like the light from 1000 suns. Whatever the cause, whatever the need Amarr will do it 100 times better than any other race. Even whining. Nyxus You understand that Tux is not a God, so we should not pray him or try to evocate him? He must answer this with yet a "Amarr are ok" or "We are looking at it", cause WE ARE PAYING HIM.
Kardim
Resurrection R i s e
Posted - 2006.10.13 22:57:00 -
[2697 ]
i as much as anyone would love to see a post from the dev's, but bashing them or any negativity towards anything ccp does or has done will not help our cause... especially since its their game and their forum. regardless of personal oppinions of the current state of the game (mine being bad as i dont really feel like playing much, i log in and look at my pile of amarr crap read mail log out). constructive criticism is our best bet imo, even if u are upset asking for tux to be fired or beheaded or whatever, is not a good thing. i think his view is a bit skewed as to what he flies the most (probobly cald/gall as most of game does) so maybe this problem isnt as prevelant as what he lives w/ ingame, but putting up your discussions and being mature about it (even to these amarr hating flamers that post here) will be your best bet at getting help or an answer. you catch more flies w/ honey right (:
Ivan Kinsikor
AmarrCAD Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.13 23:53:00 -
[2698 ]
Edited by: Ivan Kinsikor on 13/10/2006 23:52:59 I'm about |-| that close to ditching being amarr and train gallente instead. Amarr have nothing they're good at, no ship that is insanely outstanding. Just go through this ship and modules forum. Do you see any "hey check out this badass amarr" ship thread or anything of the like? They can't put up an insane tank, their guns suck up so much cap that it makes it a ***** to run the tank. Our ability to put out tons of damage is crapola cause EM/Therm are some of the easiest dmg types to tank against (unless you're caldari, probably the only downside they face). The ships all seem to be nothing more than giant, flying powerplants with the bonuses they get, compared to oh say the brutix which gets a really nice armour repairer bonus. My favorite amarr ship is nothing more than a gallente ripoff (Arbitrator). We have no roll, we have nothing insanely outstanding. The entire concept of "the Amarrian School of thinking when it comes to ship design: thick armor and hard hitting lasers." Is not even remotely present in the ship bonuses and capabilities. Our lasers do not hit hard, our armor is like being wrapped in tin due to our substandard tanking capabilities. I keep hoping "it'll get better. Just a few more skills and it'll get better," but it never does. CCP needs to either say "this is what we intended," or "we're working on it," cause right now the only Amarr weapon I've got that works in game is pure Amarr ego. Killing is business and business is good.
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.10.14 00:51:00 -
[2699 ]
one thing i wanted to ask ship bounuses are ment to be a BONUS to a ship like 5 % damage 5 % fire rate etc... but getting a bonus to use your Race weapons? is it just me who thinks thats this aint really a bonus? like MWD on the Thorax its a bonus for the penalty it gets ApoC 5% cap 10 % less cap usage Megat 5% damage 7.5%tracking Tempest 5% fire rate 5% damage Raven 5% fire rate 10 % missle velocity isnt it obvious? all 3 Tier 2 ships get 2 bonuses for guns/missles and the Apoc doesnt get a single one. i wont talk about the geddon since its a good ship and what really makes it good is the 5 hvy drones the Tier 3 abbadon in my opinion it will own in short engagments and fast fleet battles it can dish out alot of damage , yeah its cap wont hold long but it will do enough damage before it dies. either warp out or u dead. The Master Of Chaos
Brother Todd
Posted - 2006.10.14 00:53:00 -
[2700 ]
Edited by: Brother Todd on 14/10/2006 00:53:50 Originally by: Murukan Thermal is 35% on armor and shields .. no, it's 20% on shields and 35% on armor. Originally by: Murukan while kinetic is 35% armor, 40% shields only on gallente ships, base kinetic resist on armor is 25%. Originally by: Murukan If those resist inaccuracies get fixed then sure move a little em from armor to shield, maybe like 10%. Why? is there a race with severly limited damage types that can only do kin/expl? Quote: In fact in terms of base resist total em is the least resisted. No, thermal is least resisted (55% total, followed by EM (60%) and kinetic (65%) while expl has 70%). Originally by: Murukan A total of 60% resistence to em is distributed between armor and shield, 60/0 respectively. 70% explosive 10/60. 70% thermal 35/35. And 75% kinetic 35/40. So i guess you could say more EM resistence is needed! You can apparently say a lot of things but you don't seem to know much. Quote: Explosive crystals? No, best way to debunk this since balance obviously isn't a discussion you want to hear, is how the hell does a laser produce it? Lasers are beams of light, they heat (thermal) and give off radiation (em). They don't just magically explode. I agree, no need for explosive crystals... but the rest of your post was total crap
LordChaos
AmarrCelestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.10.14 01:01:00 -
[2701 ]
Anyone seen the last battle of the tournament on EVE TV? i think TUX was on it if i recall correctly and i think he said that he dont like to fly Amarr when they where talking about the ceptor fight. correct me if im wrong guys , i dont mean to attack Tux or anything just made me wonder y dont u like about amarr ships? we dont want a complete change of Amarr but i think with all these posts here , they really need some loving a simple example which probably was said here in this thread 2 RCU2s with maxed skills to fit 8 tech2 tachs? what other Tier 2 BS here needs to fit RCUs to fit a full rack of tech2 guns? The Master Of Chaos
Trind2222
Amarr
Posted - 2006.10.14 01:47:00 -
[2702 ]
some things i want to happen to ammar 1.Littel cap and pg reducion on laser whoud help alot. 2.Omen need little more ammor not much maby 100hp and 10 pg more 3.Litle more damage out put from the lasers. 4.If is a way to lower the price for crystal do that I don't know this whoud help but it will be a start at least. But i think ammar shud have EM/Terminal and our ally calldary has Exp/kin. as Explosion crystal whoud be not even fitt in lore in eve.
OrangeAfroMan
Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
Posted - 2006.10.14 05:39:00 -
[2703 ]
Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor Edited by: Ivan Kinsikor on 13/10/2006 23:52:59 I'm about |-| that close to ditching being amarr and train gallente instead. THEN DO IT AND STOP WHINING ABOUT "BROKEN" AMARR. YOU'LL ONLY BE BACK TO COMPLAIN ABOUT HOW GALLENTE SUCKS WON'T YOU??? Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
Mahavy Seth
AmarrImperial Academy
Posted - 2006.10.14 05:43:00 -
[2704 ]
Originally by: Kardim i as much as anyone would love to see a post from the dev's, but bashing them or any negativity towards anything ccp does or has done will not help our cause... especially since its their game and their forum. regardless of personal oppinions of the current state of the game (mine being bad as i dont really feel like playing much, i log in and look at my pile of amarr crap read mail log out). constructive criticism is our best bet imo, even if u are upset asking for tux to be fired or beheaded or whatever, is not a good thing. i think his view is a bit skewed as to what he flies the most (probobly cald/gall as most of game does) so maybe this problem isnt as prevelant as what he lives w/ ingame, but putting up your discussions and being mature about it (even to these amarr hating flamers that post here) will be your best bet at getting help or an answer. you catch more flies w/ honey right (: No, sorry, you do not understand: Amarr for me ARE FINE, may be perfection can be reached with some minor changes, anyway as they ar enow they are pretty fine for me. The problem here is that this topic have 92 pages and 100000 rewiew. In the company I work, if I treat the customers (ie: the one that allow us to live) like CCP is treating the ones in this topic (ignoring them), my CEOs remove my ranks in no time or even I get fired by them. This is not more a topic regarding Amarr, if they are fine or not. CCP (and I do not mean tux only) must answer cause yesm this is their forum and their game, but thanks to us. Anyway this **** like tratment will bring eve to destruction when EvE - Online will be not more the ONLY valuable sci fiction game.
Hakera
Anari Higard
Posted - 2006.10.14 05:44:00 -
[2705 ]
Originally by: LordChaos what other Tier 2 BS here needs to fit RCUs to fit a full rack of tech2 guns? uhm all of them. Try fitting 1400/425 to any other ship and you need rcu's. the exception being a tempest which can fit the 6*1400mm with adv weapons skill lvl 5 (just with a few spare pg before it tries to fit anything else. and democracy thankfully never dictated changes in eve. This thread is almost 99.99% whine and little fact, i mean some of the suggested changes would so redicously unbalance things that Im quite happy Tux doesnt listen to the rabble. But there is hope - if you get to 100 pages on this thread you get a special prize!
Ivan Kinsikor
AmarrCAD Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.14 06:15:00 -
[2706 ]
Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor Edited by: Ivan Kinsikor on 13/10/2006 23:52:59 I'm about |-| that close to ditching being amarr and train gallente instead. THEN DO IT AND STOP WHINING ABOUT "BROKEN" AMARR. YOU'LL ONLY BE BACK TO COMPLAIN ABOUT HOW GALLENTE SUCKS WON'T YOU??? RAWRAWRAWRAWRAWR I TALK IN ALL CAPS AND CONTRIBUTE NOTHING TO THREADS I CAN DO THAT TOO. YOUR CHARACTER'S NAME IS ORANGEAFROMAN WHEN YOU CLEARLY HAVE A MOHAWK. Get a life buddy, oh and I did start training up for gallente ships. I'll be in a Blasterax in just a few days Amarr need ships that do something other than make up for the fact that they can't naturally fit their weapons/tank without running out of cap in half a second. So easiest solution would be to enhance the cap regen of the amarr ships so that they can mount their guns without huge issues, and have more varied armor tank/laser dmg/range ship enhancements. Tis all we really need. Killing is business and business is good.
OrangeAfroMan
Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
Posted - 2006.10.14 06:20:00 -
[2707 ]
Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor Edited by: Ivan Kinsikor on 13/10/2006 23:52:59 I'm about |-| that close to ditching being amarr and train gallente instead. THEN DO IT AND STOP WHINING ABOUT "BROKEN" AMARR. YOU'LL ONLY BE BACK TO COMPLAIN ABOUT HOW GALLENTE SUCKS WON'T YOU??? RAWRAWRAWRAWRAWR I TALK IN ALL CAPS AND CONTRIBUTE NOTHING TO THREADS I CAN DO THAT TOO. YOUR CHARACTER'S NAME IS ORANGEAFROMAN WHEN YOU CLEARLY HAVE A MOHAWK. Get a life buddy, oh and I did start training up for gallente ships. I'll be in a Blasterax in just a few days GOOD. Now let this 90+ pages of BS die. By the way I am very rawr compared to you, come out to Derelik and die by my hand, noob. Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.10.14 10:19:00 -
[2708 ]
Originally by: Brother Todd Quote: In fact in terms of base resist total em is the least resisted. No, thermal is least resisted (55% total, followed by EM (60%) and kinetic (65%) while expl has 70%). Also, an unhardered (or not plated/extended) armor or shield are no real problem for EM or exp damage. These "total resists" would be only the case if we had an equal distribution of armor & shieldtankers (because then armor & shield would be equally often tanked & would cancel each other). But we haven't. If you weight the armor resists twice as much as the shield resists to reflect the ship distribution you get rather different average resists ((2* armor + 1* shield)/3): EM: 40% Exp: 26.7% Kin: 30% Therm: 30%
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.10.14 10:36:00 -
[2709 ]
Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor Edited by: Ivan Kinsikor on 13/10/2006 23:52:59 I'm about |-| that close to ditching being amarr and train gallente instead. THEN DO IT AND STOP WHINING ABOUT "BROKEN" AMARR. YOU'LL ONLY BE BACK TO COMPLAIN ABOUT HOW GALLENTE SUCKS WON'T YOU??? RAWRAWRAWRAWRAWR I TALK IN ALL CAPS AND CONTRIBUTE NOTHING TO THREADS I CAN DO THAT TOO. YOUR CHARACTER'S NAME IS ORANGEAFROMAN WHEN YOU CLEARLY HAVE A MOHAWK. Get a life buddy, oh and I did start training up for gallente ships. I'll be in a Blasterax in just a few days GOOD. Now let this 90+ pages of BS die. By the way I am very rawr compared to you, come out to Derelik and die by my hand, noob. well first you might try to contribute something to this thread other then ''you are all whiners'' and fly something else then minmatar before you say that amarr is fine, thanks
Kerdrak
Amarr3B Legio IX Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.14 10:50:00 -
[2710 ]
Amarr have less bonus than other races, the 10% cap usage for using lasers is crap. Are lasers so good that only amarr can use them? of course not... There is no point using lasers in ships like Apoc, Maller and other ships with NO DAMAGE bonus instead projectiles. I don¦t want the "10% reduction in lasers turrets capacitor use" while other races get bonus to tracking, damage and/or missile velocity. Its UNFAIR. ________________________________________First atheist amarr on EVE
Lady Loom
Though The Darkness Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.14 11:28:00 -
[2711 ]
Originally by: Kerdrak Amarr have less bonus than other races, the 10% cap usage for using lasers is crap. Are lasers so good that only amarr can use them? of course not... There is no point using lasers in ships like Apoc, Maller and other ships with NO DAMAGE bonus instead projectiles. I don¦t want the "10% reduction in lasers turrets capacitor use" while other races get bonus to tracking, damage and/or missile velocity. Its UNFAIR. I still don't see a good reason for why it has to be like that anyway, I mean if lasers were inherently much more powerful than anything else then it would make sense as a tradeoff, but they NEED that cap usage bonus to even function (let's see how the Abbadon handles without them...) which means effectively taking away useful bonuses just to make lasers work yet they're obviously not the ultimate gank ships nor can they outlast their enemies with the cap use of lasers and tank? If Amarr had other traits on their ships like increased cap recharge or reduced cap drain on other active modules, maybe, but it's not like you can say "Amarr use all their cap on lasers but don't use active modules", this ain't StarCraft with differently working races, we all use the same modules, the same mechanics. Damage per cap is out of whack for one race only, and the reason for this is, what exactly? Some claim laser base damage is high enough to justify the cost - well if that's indeed true (which, taking the general resist situation into account, isn't even remotely the case IMO) I'm all for dropping that base DPS advantage if that in turns would allow Amarr ships to get range/RoF/tracking/aux. mod/whatever USEFUL bonuses. If it's about the stupid (T1) frequency crystals (I simply don't think that logistic considerations like this should be as heavily used to "balance" ships/races), I have no problem with having them replaced by something more useful that doesn't last forever and has the same 10s reload time, considering they attract a lot of clueless "zomg but you can change crystals in a sec and don't need to carry ammo" posters who think everything Amarr pilots have to put up with is fine because they have crystals instead of ammo. As pointed out above Amarr pilots still have to carry several different sets of crystals, losing them if your ship goes poof is like losing a cargo hold full of hybrid/projectile ammo (how many of you actually fill up your hold with ammo unless you go belt ratting or do certain missions?) and T2 crystals aren't only mighty expensive, they're a serious hassle to handle AND have limited charges already. Of course that won't happen with self-righteous devs and stubborn players trying to hold onto the status-quo forever, so everyone who's scared of the idea that the whole Amarr race gets to be looked at, calm down, your superiority is not in danger. On a side note, if "train Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar" is the solution to Amarr problems, why even have Amarr playable? And: If you worry so much that Amarr ships might become worthy opponents again, why don't you just take your own advice, STFU and train Amarr, and stop trolling this topic? [power corrupts, absolute power is kind of neat]
Hakera
Anari Higard
Posted - 2006.10.14 11:32:00 -
[2712 ]
Originally by: Kerdrak I don¦t want the "10% reduction in lasers turrets capacitor use" while other races get bonus to tracking, damage and/or missile velocity. Its UNFAIR. get a clue. lasers dont need ship bonuses to be comparible to other turret classes, hybrids need at least 1 rof/dmg bonus, projectiles need 2 for the raw dps to be comparible. Its precisely this kind of clueless posting that is why this thread will never be listened to as it has drowned out any decent arguments and reasons long ago.
XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.10.14 11:34:00 -
[2713 ]
im going to cry because gallente doesnt have 3 types of damage we only get kinetic and thermal.. we do get drones.. but so does amarr so that makes it unfair on us since we are the drone users.. thats not fair.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.10.14 11:45:00 -
[2714 ]
Originally by: Hakera lasers dont need ship bonuses to be comparible to other turret classes, hybrids need at least 1 rof/dmg bonus, projectiles need 2 for the raw dps to be comparible. While I generally agree with the rest this isn't correct for projectiles IMO. A 1400mm with the ROF bonus has 97% of the dps of a mega beam with the cap bonus. Weapon vs weapon it does not need a additional damage bonus to be on par. The minnie ships with the damage bonus do not need it because projectiles do so little dps, but because their slot loadout - they have simply fewer turret slots than other ships of the same tier. This does not mean they have to "waste" the 2nd ship bonus, though. Their "real" 2nd bonus is increased flexibility from having 1-2 more slots for non-turrets (missle launchers or nos) than other ships.
Deathbarrage
Posted - 2006.10.14 11:46:00 -
[2715 ]
Originally by: Hakera Originally by: Kerdrak I don¦t want the "10% reduction in lasers turrets capacitor use" while other races get bonus to tracking, damage and/or missile velocity. Its UNFAIR. get a clue. lasers dont need ship bonuses to be comparible to other turret classes, hybrids need at least 1 rof/dmg bonus, projectiles need 2 for the raw dps to be comparible. Its precisely this kind of clueless posting that is why this thread will never be listened to as it has drowned out any decent arguments and reasons long ago. well obviously lasers don't work as they should so maybe the problem lies in the lack of a 2nd bonus... you honestly can't say
XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.10.14 11:49:00 -
[2716 ]
lasers sound cool... be happy.
Angelic Resolution
The Arcanum
Posted - 2006.10.14 11:57:00 -
[2717 ]
Originally by: Hakera Originally by: LordChaos and democracy thankfully never dictated changes in eve. This thread is almost 99.99% whine and little fact, i mean some of the suggested changes would so redicously unbalance things that Im quite happy Tux doesnt listen to the rabble. Can you go through and read the entire thread.. I think you missed the parts where people did proper calculations on T2 EANM resists with armor comp skills. I also think you missed timeline post someone did where amarr got it with a nerf stick, all other races got boosted and amarr got shat on. Graned some of the changes purposed are stupid (E.g. My sarcastic remark for a dmg mod increase of 2.8 I think it was for all lasers), some of the suggestions are only sarcasm. Please, before saying 99.9%.. go back and read 99.9% otherwise you just sound like a jack ass. On to something more usefull, I finally got T2 EANM's and decided to see how much more resistence I could pump out of em on a raven.. I must say, I can see why amarr are complaining again. For an apoc to go against a raven it brings in so many problems it isn't funny. For starters, the raven pilot will jam the apoc pilot. Secondly the 80% odd resistI got out of the EM tank meant lasers would do **** all damage Third: For an apoc to even stand a chance it'd need to fit its' own ECM or ECCM or lowslot passive sensor to have a chance. However after those are fitted your cap is gone in under 3 minutes if you try and run everything at once.. (8 tachys, 4 ECM's, 2 LAR, 2 RCU's, 2 EANM's and either a CPU or DCU - Can't remeber :( ) Tachys took 40 cap each, 40 x 8 = 320 every 7.6 seconds. LAR take a lovely 800 in 11.8 ECMS take 80 or so every 10ish Compare this with the raven.. ECMs, 80 Armor, 400 Need I go on? Amarr are stated as the best tankers in game - Maybe.. if we're just meant to look pretty and not do anything, which is just bull**** if you take into account the many years they oppressed the minmattar slaves. And the hurt of it? Projectiles working better on an apoc.. GG the slaves taught the slavers a great lesson there.. /rant
Hakera
Anari Higard
Posted - 2006.10.14 12:16:00 -
[2718 ]
Edited by: Hakera on 14/10/2006 12:16:59 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Hakera lasers dont need ship bonuses to be comparible to other turret classes, hybrids need at least 1 rof/dmg bonus, projectiles need 2 for the raw dps to be comparible. While I generally agree with the rest this isn't correct for projectiles IMO. A 1400mm with the ROF bonus has 97% of the dps of a mega beam with the cap bonus. Weapon vs weapon it does not need a additional damage bonus to be on par. to backup what i said: this is a rudimentry comparison of the dmg/rof multipliers of the turrets with their ship bonus (lvl 5) using total base hp dmg of the ammo to work out raw dps.Tempest 100.38 fitted 6 1400mm I using emp l (44 dmg)Apoc 138.24 fitted 8 tachyons I using MF L (48 dmg)Megathron 120.82 fitted 7 425mm I using AM L (48 dmg)Armageddon 151.20 fitted with 7 tachyons I using MF L (48 dmg)Raven 140.63 fitted with 6*seige using mjolnir Tempest (w/ dmg bonus only) 80.30 fitted 6 1400mm I using emp l (44 dmg) last one is just to show you what 1 dmg bonus on a tempest would do ^^ (before anyone else comments, note it is a raw dps comparison, im not including any other factors like resists, cap use, range, tracking or fitting)
Nir
Posted - 2006.10.14 12:35:00 -
[2719 ]
I just love how Tuxford started his last thread with "So i've been replying to the forums today, and(...)" That just shows he's giving this thread and any valid complaints about Amarr a wide berth. He basically posted on every topic except Amarr and Stealth Bombers. But like Hakera points out, any valid complaints in a 93 page thread are like finding a needle in a.. stack of needles.
Altai Saker
Omniscient Order
Posted - 2006.10.14 12:36:00 -
[2720 ]
Can all the people ranting about how explosive laser ammo is stupid please crawl into a hole and die? First and foremost, enough heat causes combustion in anything, incase you were wondering that means it causes dun dun dun... an explosion. Secondly, this is eve, if the devs were concerned about realism they probably wouldn't have made a space game. So in conclusion I don't know if explosive crystals would be good or bad for balance, I just know that "realism" ought to have approximately 0 consideration when it comes to game balance.
Elve Sorrow
AmarrShinra Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.10.14 12:39:00 -
[2721 ]
Originally by: Hakera Originally by: LordChaos what other Tier 2 BS here needs to fit RCUs to fit a full rack of tech2 guns? uhm all of them. Try fitting 1400/425 to any other ship and you need rcu's. the exception being a tempest which can fit the 6*1400mm with adv weapons skill lvl 5 (just with a few spare pg before it tries to fit anything else. Uhhh no. The Mega can fit 7 425 IIs, an MWD and a Med Rep II without any grid enhancers. It has 1400 grid left! Same with the Raven, it can easily fit 6 Cruise II or even Siege II. A Raven with 6 Cruise II and an MWD II has 3400 grid left! The Apoc runs out of grid after fitting a mere 6 Tachyon IIs. Six. You need 2 RCU IIs just to fit the remaining 2 Tachyon IIs. The Tempest is the only one that comes close, because it has to use an RCU II to fit MWD etc. Both the Mega and the Raven have no problems whatsoever to fit a full rack of the biggest longrange guns and the usual gear for it. Just for ****s 'n giggles, did you know the Apoc needs an RCU II even if you switch down to Mega Beam IIs? Can only fit 7 of those too. Thats without fitting an MWD, btw.
Hakera
Anari Higard
Posted - 2006.10.14 12:54:00 -
[2722 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow did you know the Apoc needs an RCU II even if you switch down to Mega Beam IIs? Can only fit 7 of those too. Thats without fitting an MWD, btw. but then the apoc have the low slots for that :) Ive always been of the opinion that tachyons are an exception and that mega beams are more comparible myself anyway to the other turrets.
Elve Sorrow
AmarrShinra Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.10.14 13:15:00 -
[2723 ]
Originally by: Hakera Originally by: Elve Sorrow did you know the Apoc needs an RCU II even if you switch down to Mega Beam IIs? Can only fit 7 of those too. Thats without fitting an MWD, btw. but then the apoc have the low slots for that :) Ive always been of the opinion that tachyons are an exception and that mega beams are more comparible myself anyway to the other turrets. The Mega has 7 lows aswell you know. And more CPU, last i checked. I long thought that Tachyons were a higher class aswell, and it was true like 2 years ago. Back when Amarr where Flavour of the Month, and every Amarr gun rocked. Nowadays, theyre just a different class when it comes to fitting. Even if we assume them to be still a higher class, my point stands for Mega Beam IIs. Mega Beam IIs have an optimal of 48km(16km), 425 IIs have 58km(24km). Falloff in brackets. Thats base, obviously. The difference becomes bigger with skills involved. Even Tachyon IIs have shorter optimal AND falloff then 425 IIs. The times that Tachyons were of a higher class are, sadly, over. And frankly, i disagree with the 'the apoc has the lowslots for it'. But thats more of an idea then anything. Every gun, ship and module has disadvantages in this game. Yet ship bonusses are always designed to make the disadvantage smaller. Essentially making every ship the same. The fact that an Apoc has more lowslots (it doesnt, btw) means it should be able to use those to fit modules to set it apart from the rest. Instead, you end up fitting modules to make it similar to the rest. Boring.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.14 14:31:00 -
[2724 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Hakera Originally by: Elve Sorrow did you know the Apoc needs an RCU II even if you switch down to Mega Beam IIs? Can only fit 7 of those too. Thats without fitting an MWD, btw. but then the apoc have the low slots for that :) Ive always been of the opinion that tachyons are an exception and that mega beams are more comparible myself anyway to the other turrets. The Mega has 7 lows aswell you know. And more CPU, last i checked. I long thought that Tachyons were a higher class aswell, and it was true like 2 years ago. Back when Amarr where Flavour of the Month, and every Amarr gun rocked. Nowadays, theyre just a different class when it comes to fitting. Even if we assume them to be still a higher class, my point stands for Mega Beam IIs. Mega Beam IIs have an optimal of 48km(16km), 425 IIs have 58km(24km). Falloff in brackets. Thats base, obviously. The difference becomes bigger with skills involved. Even Tachyon IIs have shorter optimal AND falloff then 425 IIs. The times that Tachyons were of a higher class are, sadly, over. And frankly, i disagree with the 'the apoc has the lowslots for it'. But thats more of an idea then anything. Every gun, ship and module has disadvantages in this game. Yet ship bonusses are always designed to make the disadvantage smaller. Essentially making every ship the same. The fact that an Apoc has more lowslots (it doesnt, btw) means it should be able to use those to fit modules to set it apart from the rest. Instead, you end up fitting modules to make it similar to the rest. Boring. precisely. the so called lowslot advantage that could make amarr the uber tankers they could be is gone with the forced engineering mod fittings that others dont have to use. and the other does more dmg also while tanking as well. amarr ships that have a "lowslot advantage" over other ships really cant use it. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Jaded
Posted - 2006.10.14 15:32:00 -
[2725 ]
Edited by: Jaded on 14/10/2006 15:35:22 Originally by: Elve Sorrow And frankly, i disagree with the 'the apoc has the lowslots for it'. But thats more of an idea then anything. Every gun, ship and module has disadvantages in this game. Yet ship bonusses are always designed to make the disadvantage smaller. Essentially making every ship the same. The fact that an Apoc has more lowslots (it doesnt, btw) means it should be able to use those to fit modules to set it apart from the rest. Instead, you end up fitting modules to make it similar to the rest. So very true. What use is a ton of turret/low slots when we can't take advantage of them..? Amarr ships need an XX% increase in PG. Turrets and tanking is all we have, but we don't excel at either. Our cap regen could use a looking at as well.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.10.14 15:35:00 -
[2726 ]
Originally by: Hakera to backup what i said: this is a rudimentry comparison of the dmg/rof multipliers of the turrets with their ship bonus (lvl 5) using total base hp dmg of the ammo to work out raw dps.Tempest 100.38 fitted 6 1400mm I using emp l (44 dmg)Apoc 138.24 fitted 8 tachyons I using MF L (48 dmg)Megathron 120.82 fitted 7 425mm I using AM L (48 dmg)Armageddon 151.20 fitted with 7 tachyons I using MF L (48 dmg)Raven 140.63 fitted with 6*seige using mjolnir Tempest (w/ dmg bonus only) 80.30 fitted 6 1400mm I using emp l (44 dmg) last one is just to show you what 1 dmg bonus on a tempest would do ^^ (before anyone else comments, note it is a raw dps comparison, im not including any other factors like resists, cap use, range, tracking or fitting) Fristly, as you said yourself tachyons are not compareable with other turrets. If you handle them like that you cannot use them when the result please you and not when they do not. Secondly, your tempest calculation is wrong. The rof bonus is not a 1.25 multiplier, but a 1.33 multiplier for dps (1/0.75).Tempest 5.75 / 23.63 * 6 * 44 * 1.25 / 0.75 -> 107.07 dps Also, you completly ignore my 2nd paragraph. As said:The minnie ships with the damage bonus do not need it because projectiles do so little dps, but because their slot loadout - they have simply fewer turret slots than other ships of the same tier. 1 Mega Beam (MF) does 14.67 dps, 1 1400mm (EMP + 25% ROF) 14.28 dps. Projectiles "low dps" is weapon vs weapon a myth.
Hakera
Anari Higard
Posted - 2006.10.14 15:48:00 -
[2727 ]
Edited by: Hakera on 14/10/2006 15:47:55 Originally by: Aramendel Projectiles "low dps" is weapon vs weapon a myth. the point is still mute even if the figures arnt exact. To compete with the other ships, its needs both bonuses. The rule of thumb on ship bonuses was just that, a generalisation that applies across the races. Hence it being called a 'rule of thumb'
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.14 15:57:00 -
[2728 ]
Originally by: Hakera to backup what i said: this is a rudimentry comparison of the dmg/rof multipliers of the turrets with their ship bonus (lvl 5) using total base hp dmg of the ammo to work out raw dps.Tempest 100.38 fitted 6 1400mm I using emp l (44 dmg)Apoc 138.24 fitted 8 tachyons I using MF L (48 dmg)Megathron 120.82 fitted 7 425mm I using AM L (48 dmg)Armageddon 151.20 fitted with 7 tachyons I using MF L (48 dmg)Raven 140.63 fitted with 6*seige using mjolnir Tempest (w/ dmg bonus only) 80.30 fitted 6 1400mm I using emp l (44 dmg) last one is just to show you what 1 dmg bonus on a tempest would do ^^ (before anyone else comments, note it is a raw dps comparison, im not including any other factors like resists, cap use, range, tracking or fitting) While I find your number crunching laudable, if you are going to use long range guns with close range ammo you need to at least include 2 heavy launchers on the Tempest if you are going to pure DPS and 2 guns on the Raven. If you do long range ammo then I agree that you can leave the launchers off. But a short range DPS comparison without filling all your highs with weapons I find slightly disingenuous. It's like slapping 5 guns on an Arma and complaining that the DPS is low. But I do appreciate you putting together actual facts for comparison and discussion. Murokan and OrangeAfro: Aramendel posted the corrected %s on unhardened resists. And the fact that even after the ECM fix the distribution of Armor and Shield tankers still VERY much favors the armor damaging ammos I would also remind you of this: Radio: 20EM Carbonized Lead: 12EXPL, 12KIN Iron: 12KN, 8THERM Tell me what I am supposed to do when 2/3rds of ship armor tank and the only damage I do is EM long range? Unlike Projectile and Hybrid, Crystals have a MUCH larger bias towards EM than the racial equivalent. Just to be fair, here is the close range ammo Multi:28EM, 20THERM EMP L:20EM, 16EXPL, 8KIN ANTI: 28KN, 20THERM If we look here we see all ammos getting weighted towards thier non racial damage type. Projectiles get EM (a lot, which they pay for with 4 less total, but get back in long range) and Hybrids get KIN over THERM. Amarr should get 28THERM/20EM; but for some reason don't. If you look at 2nd most damaging ammo we again see projectile strength through flexibility always allowing a workaround of the EXPL hardening of shields. GAMMA: 28EM, 16THERM PHASED PL: 8KIN, 32THERM PLUTONIOM: 24KIN, 20THERM Projectiles do slightly less (4) damage from ammo, but again get a STRONG non racial damage allowing EXPL workaround. Hybrids get a balanced, but nonracial weight. Lasers SHOULD be 20EM/24THERM. But again are unfairly weighted towards EM. Even if ship hardening % change, the balance of armor/shield tankers is such that Ammar Crystals should be about: RADIO: 8EM/12 THERM MULTI: can stay the same GAMMA: 20EM/24 THERM This would at least give some options of less damaging ammo to try to work around insanely tanked EM resist. On the EXPL crystal I suggested. I basically tried to make a weaker version of every short range ammo, and incorporate the given weaknesses of all of them (the EM/EXPL split of EMP, short range, high cap use, etc). And threw it out there as a "why wouldn't this be balanced" scenario. I was hoping that someone would plug the numbers in to show DPS with said ammo. Alas, I guess I will have to do it. I originally said "NO!" to all expl crystals, but after looking at the actual numbers, I think a balanced expl crystal could be implemented. And RL reasons why it couldn't exist is pretty silly tbh since I am already flying in a universe with the equivalent of air friction in space. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
Posted - 2006.10.14 16:08:00 -
[2729 ]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 14/10/2006 16:14:18 This thread is really in need of locking and sending to the graveyard... I have in fact read through the entirety (I want my Saturday back), the first 15 pages consisted of irrelevant arguments over the physics of lasers interacting with armour and DPS comparisons between AC Apocalypse and Megapulse Apocalypse (I'm quite dubious as to the effectiveness of the AC setup with no MWD...) using flawed setup comparisons (e.g. adding a second fitting module to the Megapulse setup when only one is necessary) Around about page 40 there is some decent discussion, though I don't believe the impact of some of the proposed changes has been thought through (time and again in this game, subtle changes have been shown to be far more effective than sledge-hammer solutions ), IÆll list some the 'sledgehammer solutions', that have zero chance of being implemented: Explosive Crystals Nerfing EANM down to 15% Perfect tracking for lasers ( ) Go back to the old stacking penalty ( ) Make armour resistances uniform Take 20% off EM resistance Give lasers a 50% Cap reduction Give the Apocalypse a damage bonus ...reminds me of some of the crazy ideas that were being thrown around for Blasters (+20% damage and tracking anyone?)Subtle changes are needed, and despite some of the brash statements here to the contrary, I'm certain things ARE being discussed by the developers. Oh and finally, game balance! = balance for 1 vs. 1 scenario. It has been said time and again, Amarr Battleships in particular, are not 1 vs. 1 machines but rather small group/large fleet platforms. The Armageddon is no Blasterthron equivalent, nor should it be û the game would get pretty boring very quickly if every race was fundamentally the same. Beyond that, the majority of the thread is mindless bumping (not allowed ), flaming each other or Tuxford (not allowed ), blatant trolling on both sides of the argument (not allowed ), personal attacks (not allowed ) and general spam. And people wonder why Tuxford won't touch this thread with a barge pole... ----------- Office Linebacker -
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.14 16:18:00 -
[2730 ]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/10/2006 16:20:35 They really should lock this thread. It was annoying at around 70 pages. Now its something I dont think anyone except the writers read anymore. Im not saying Amarr is fine, but this thread wont change a thing. The Tempest needs a buff too, but I dont think that will ever happen. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.14 16:20:00 -
[2731 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 14/10/2006 16:20:57 On the possibility of EXPL Crystals: Proposed T2 EXPL Crystal DPS Comparison:-50% Range, +50% Cap Use, 16EM 20EXPL, labeled as Conflag on the chart. I don't see why this would be unbalanced. If projectiles wanted a higher damage T2 Barrage equivalent with 28EM 20KIN I think that would be balanced as well. It would give them a close range ammo that is thier racial enemy's type and is actually more damaging than thier current close range ammo. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Hakera
Anari Higard
Posted - 2006.10.14 16:22:00 -
[2732 ]
Originally by: Nyxus If you do long range ammo then I agree that you can leave the launchers off. But a short range DPS comparison without filling all your highs with weapons I find slightly disingenuous. It's like slapping 5 guns on an Arma and complaining that the DPS is low. heh it was just a very basic analysis not maeant for anything other than displaying the effect/need for dmg bonuses and ignoring any other factors, but even if you switch to long range ammo the difference between each is about the same barring raven with cruise. 53.33 for temp w/ carb L, 67.2 arma with radio l, 50.34 mega with lead l, 57.60 for apoc & 100 for a raven with cruise. As i said in my other post, things are fairly balanced damage wise, and messing with that will upset things too much. Fitting req's sure, but even an exp crystal would give too much advantage unless it lowered the RoF somehow, you would be scattering the dmg types and basically stacking the cards in lasers favour for a quick hot swap of a crystal and your punching right in the resist holes. In short, damage is fine even when using a 'normalised dmg modifier' (includes resists) as i called it from my eve-i days helping with the obex.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.14 16:31:00 -
[2733 ]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 14/10/2006 16:14:18 This thread is really in need of locking and sending to the graveyard... I have in fact read through the entirety (I want my Saturday back), the first 15 pages consisted of irrelevant arguments over the physics of lasers interacting with armour and DPS comparisons between AC Apocalypse and Megapulse Apocalypse (I'm quite dubious as to the effectiveness of the AC setup with no MWD...) using flawed setup comparisons (e.g. adding a second fitting module to the Megapulse setup when only one is necessary) Around about page 40 there is some decent discussion, though I don't believe the impact of some of the proposed changes has been thought through (time and again in this game, subtle changes have been shown to be far more effective than sledge-hammer solutions ), IÆll list some the 'sledgehammer solutions', that have zero chance of being implemented: Explosive Crystals Nerfing EANM down to 15% Perfect tracking for lasers ( ) Go back to the old stacking penalty ( ) Make armour resistances uniform Take 20% off EM resistance Give lasers a 50% Cap reduction Give the Apocalypse a damage bonus ...reminds me of some of the crazy ideas that were being thrown around for Blasters (+20% damage and tracking anyone?)Subtle changes are needed, and despite some of the brash statements here to the contrary, I'm certain things ARE being discussed by the developers. Oh and finally, game balance! = balance for 1 vs. 1 scenario. It has been said time and again, Amarr Battleships in particular, are not 1 vs. 1 machines but rather small group/large fleet platforms. The Armageddon is no Blasterthron equivalent, nor should it be û the game would get pretty boring very quickly if every race was fundamentally the same. Beyond that, the majority of the thread is mindless bumping (not allowed ), flaming each other or Tuxford (not allowed ), blatant trolling on both sides of the argument (not allowed ), personal attacks (not allowed ) and general spam. And people wonder why Tuxford won't touch this thread with a barge pole... once again ppl take the armageddon as a example wich is wrong. the geddon is one of the very few usable amarr ships out there, the one closest to being balanced towards other races battleships. im not saying that it is balanced but its not to far away. and i know why tuxford dont touch this thread with a barge pole as you put it, he dont fly amarr. there has been a number of items or suggestions spilled into this thread, lots of good stuff and lots of not so good stuff and also just stuff to get people to wind up their brains and start thinking about amarr inbalance. personally i think that it is great that everyone adds to this thread since the more things and ideas we discuss the more options the devs that actually read the forums have to throw around when they start thinking about fixing amarr, and yes they are definetly aware of this thread as it would be very hard for them to ignore a thread thats almost 100 pages long and ends up on the first page every day for the last 6months. so what have we actually come up with in this thread by now? some people said that explosive crystals is impossible?, i beg to differ as we have seen here on page 93. look at amarr's arch enemy the minmatar, phased plasma that have extreme amounts of thermal dmg that just happens to be amarr's weakest resists. the minmatars do however have insane resists to amarr's dmg types, ever tried shooting a minmatar tech2 ship with pulses when it has 1 EM hardener on?, takes a while. as for people saying that amarr isnt designed to be balanced 1v1 agains other races BS, why are all the other races BS resonably balanced when compared to eachother? lowslot advantage?, gone straight away as amarr need engineering mods to fit their most damaging guns wich still do less dmg then others. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.14 16:35:00 -
[2734 ]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/10/2006 16:20:35 They really should lock this thread. It was annoying at around 70 pages. Now its something I dont think anyone except the writers read anymore. Im not saying Amarr is fine, but this thread wont change a thing. The Tempest needs a buff too, but I dont think that will ever happen. perhaps it is annoying to some ppl and with good reason i hope. so the writers of this thread by your saying isnt allowed to share ideas and discuss?, what a odd phenomenon. amarr isnt fine and if the thread dont change anything then i guess i will see you here many more times when we gets closer to 200 pages then. and yes some minmatar ships need a fix also but you can go start a thread called minmatar if you want to discuss that. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Elve Sorrow
AmarrShinra Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.10.14 16:42:00 -
[2735 ]
Originally by: Hakera Tempest 100.38 fitted 6 1400mm I using emp l (44 dmg)Apoc 138.24 fitted 8 tachyons I using MF L (48 dmg)Megathron 120.82 fitted 7 425mm I using AM L (48 dmg)Armageddon 151.20 fitted with 7 tachyons I using MF L (48 dmg)Raven 140.63 fitted with 6*seige using mjolnir Tempest (w/ dmg bonus only) 80.30 fitted 6 1400mm I using emp l (44 dmg) last one is just to show you what 1 dmg bonus on a tempest would do ^^ One note on that though. You (conveniently) use Tech1 guns for the comparison because EMP does 44 instead of 48 damage. Something that has been corrected with the Tech2 Ammos, which all do 36 for the longrange and 60 for the shortrange ammos. The comparison would be alot more favourable for 1400 IIs with Tremor vs Tachs with Aurora etc. I fully support changing EMP to 48, and frankly im still clueless why this hasnt been done. Its been brought up time and time again.
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
Posted - 2006.10.14 16:44:00 -
[2736 ]
It does less damage on all 3 classes doesent it?----------------Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Hakera
Anari Higard
Posted - 2006.10.14 17:24:00 -
[2737 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow One note on that though. You (conveniently) use Tech1 guns for the comparison because EMP does 44 instead of 48 damage. Something that has been corrected with the Tech2 Ammos, which all do 36 for the longrange and 60 for the shortrange ammos. The comparison would be alot more favourable for 1400 IIs with Tremor vs Tachs with Aurora etc. there was nothing deliberate about my choice. In all honesty I didnt know how much emp l did until I threw it in a quick spreadsheet. But again such changes cant really be undertaken unless you look at the bigger more complex picture. Upping the base dmg on emp L would increase the alpha strike by 8%, DoT and so on. Whilst in terms of raw dps would bring things inline. Overall it would be too much imo, all things considered. As I mentioned previously, i dont think damage should be touched in any review currently. Just fitting req's when it comes to overall balance. Certain ships may need adjusting like stealth bombers but i do believe we are at a point where things are nicely balanced, not perfectly balanced because we dont really want that and as mentioned it only needs adjustments to certain classes fitting req's of turrets like a pg/cpu swap on the hybrids and perhaps a small reduction on tachs pg. Amarr should lead in terms of raw dmg and raw tank, thats the point of their ships and they raw numbers are the way they are and why they have extra turrets. If ever we get to a point where dps is too similar, we have done something wrong. Stuff like ECM ofc needs a review but thats where I would want it to be effective moreso on ECM bonus ships and less effective on others. Basically reducing the jammer strengths, increasing cap use and increasing the ecm bonuses. my 2 cents anyway.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.14 17:31:00 -
[2738 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Hakera Tempest 100.38 fitted 6 1400mm I using emp l (44 dmg)Apoc 138.24 fitted 8 tachyons I using MF L (48 dmg)Megathron 120.82 fitted 7 425mm I using AM L (48 dmg)Armageddon 151.20 fitted with 7 tachyons I using MF L (48 dmg)Raven 140.63 fitted with 6*seige using mjolnir Tempest (w/ dmg bonus only) 80.30 fitted 6 1400mm I using emp l (44 dmg) last one is just to show you what 1 dmg bonus on a tempest would do ^^ One note on that though. You (conveniently) use Tech1 guns for the comparison because EMP does 44 instead of 48 damage. Something that has been corrected with the Tech2 Ammos, which all do 36 for the longrange and 60 for the shortrange ammos. The comparison would be alot more favourable for 1400 IIs with Tremor vs Tachs with Aurora etc. I fully support changing EMP to 48, and frankly im still clueless why this hasnt been done. Its been brought up time and time again. Well, truth be told, Hail should be the T2 form of EMP. Just like Conflag and Void are upgrades to Multifreq and Antimatter since Hail is -50% range. Conflag: 32EM, 28THERM VOID: 28KIN, 32THERM HAIL: 48EXPL, 12KIN Should be HAIL: 28EM, 32EXPL for balance. And people wonder why Hail has a velocity penalty. So it's not ok to give Matari an EM/EXPL ammo becuase it would be too weak, and yet it's ok to give Amarr EM crytals because........ I guess I will just keep looking for the "built in damage bonus" on my Pulse lasers. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Elve Sorrow
AmarrShinra Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.10.14 17:36:00 -
[2739 ]
It would up the Alpha quite a bit yea, but look at the Tech2 ammo, where the ammo damages are all the same, and projectiles dont appear overpowered with there. I highly doubt it would change alot in terms of balance, but it would remove this silly relic from Minmatar pwning times that all Minnies are more then happy to abuse in their damage calcs. As for damage increase. Im not sure who wanted a damage increase - we just got one! Im quite happy with the damage Tachs do, im not happy with either their range or their fittings though. I hope and assume that the range issue will be fixed when the entire 200km longrange fleetfighting issue* gets adressed, but it doesnt fix the fitting issue. The only issue with ECM is its chancebased. Ive always been against it, much prefered the old system frankly. Flying Scorps was so much fun with cycle jamming. It's just activating a bunch of mods now and hoping they work. Not the point of this thread, though. The point is to balance Amarr ships. All of them. Not just the bloody Apoc, but ships like the Sacrilege aswell. I suppose we'd be better off with a new thread because noone still replying bothered to read pages 10-80, mostlikely. * I personally dont think its an issue, but apparently everyone does, so yea.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.14 17:51:00 -
[2740 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 14/10/2006 17:51:57 Originally by: Hakera As I mentioned previously, i dont think damage should be touched in any review currently. Just fitting req's when it comes to overall balance. Completely agree about some of the fitting issues like Thrasher/Coercer, Claw/Sader, and especially the SBs. They all really need a review. I will agree that overall amounts of damage are fine, the distributions are not. EM needs to be toned down on Crystals. Barrage: 24EXPL, 20KIN Null: 20KIN, 24THERM Scorch: 36EM, 8THERM The amounts are fine, but types are not. If we had 70% shield tankers, it would be overpowered and I would say the same thing. It is underpowered against armor. It should be Scorch: 24EM, 20THERM Fixing some of the Crystal EM damage distributions is important, while not changing the overall damage. Originally by: Hakera Amarr should lead in terms of raw dmg and raw tank, thats the point of their ships and they raw numbers are the way they are and why they have extra turrets. If ever we get to a point where dps is too similar, we have done something wrong. Stuff like ECM ofc needs a review but thats where I would want it to be effective moreso on ECM bonus ships and less effective on others. Basically reducing the jammer strengths, increasing cap use and increasing the ecm bonuses. Agreed and agreed. The combination of EM crystal weighting and EANII tanks and total number of armor tankers is a problem for Amarr DPS at the moment. I wouldn't mind changing the EM component of the Crystals and seeing where things hashed out before altering EANII and/or overall EM% on armor and shields. ECM is WAY too good when compared to damps/TDs, and TPs just need unnerfing back to the way they used to be. The stacking penalty will keep them from being to uber, even with higher base % increase. They should have 500km range for what they do as well. I see Tux is trying to balance out the armor/shield tanker ratio by introducing some new shield tanking ships (Rokh & Maelstrom) but unless something changes with them radically I don't see the overall #s changing since everyone will be armor tanking the Maelstrom anyway. But I guess its better than a TP bonus. Maybe. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.14 20:27:00 -
[2741 ]
Frankly I don't see what the hype is over Explosive crystals. The entire concept is pretty dumb and would not solve the problem in the slightest. Thermal damage is cool. I like thermal damage. Let us do more of that stuff. Fear is the mind-killer.
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
Posted - 2006.10.14 20:29:00 -
[2742 ]
Originally by: Ituralde Thermal damage is cool. Nothing to do with the thread itself, but that made me lol ----------------Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Grytok
Posted - 2006.10.15 02:31:00 -
[2743 ]
I think all would be just fine, if EM and Thermal damage on the lasers would be switched, as it also would make sense if speaking about Physics. Laser = focused light = Thermal .
Kerdrak
Amarr3B Legio IX Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.15 11:40:00 -
[2744 ]
Originally by: Xendie and i know why tuxford dont touch this thread with a barge pole as you put it, he dont fly amarr. What ships fly Tuxford? to train them up ________________________________________First atheist amarr on EVE
Nir
Posted - 2006.10.15 11:45:00 -
[2745 ]
Originally by: Kerdrak Originally by: Xendie and i know why tuxford dont touch this thread with a barge pole as you put it, he dont fly amarr. What ships fly Tuxford? to train them up Cerberus maybe? -No Gist variant for Armor Tankers -Cerb boosted in RMR -T2 Missiles are OP'd -Cerb DPS now on par with turret ships like Zealot but with more range, no cap use, no tracking etc. Yet what is on the horizon? .. Assault missiles! 50% More Cerb DPS!
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
Posted - 2006.10.15 12:30:00 -
[2746 ]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 15/10/2006 12:35:59 Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 15/10/2006 12:32:38 Another idea, that goes against my last post but what the heck. Assuming 1) crystal damage gets slightly tweaked so that it isn't overwhelmingly EM based damage, 2) ECM gets toned down, perhaps through a cooldown timer and 3) NosferatuÆs get their just deserves... Take between 25-50% of the Shield HP's off Amarr ships and apply to armour e.g. Apocalypse from 4969/6000 to 2485/8485 (maximum change) û Now you have your HPÆs where you can make more use of them for tanking. Take 25-50% of the Armour HP's off Caldari ships and apply to shields (maybe tweak the ship masses down a bit to keep 'the masses' happy ) e.g. Raven from 6000/5313 to (at most) 8656/2656 û Never understood why the Raven should have the same armour as a Megathron, well now it doesnÆt, but it does gain a bigger buffer to its useful HPÆs. Combined with ECM changes makes the abomination that is the all-out ECM/armour tanked Raven less desirable. Meanwhile... Take 10-20% of the Dominix's armour off and apply to shield HP's, i.e. (up to...) 5369/3975 (Becomes more desirable to shield tank like the good old Dual 250mm setup, or even 350mm Railguns) Take 10-20% of the Typhoon's shield off and apply to armour, i.e. (up to) (3975/5369) (keeps the minnies happy as this makes it becomes a better close range ship with AC + Siege + armour tank, considering also the next pointà) Tweak the Tempest shield upwards by up to 15%, at the expense of armour i.e. 6308/4424 û making it more desirable to shield tank (just as in the past, before ECM became FoTM) The Megathron would probably get the opposite change of the Tempest, but nothing too drastic Overall it gives Laser users more shield based setups to æPew PewÆ at, while giving their tank a very nice HP boost. ----------- Office Linebacker -
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
Posted - 2006.10.15 13:09:00 -
[2747 ]
Quote: once again ppl take the armageddon as a example wich is wrong. the geddon is one of the very few usable amarr ships out there, the one closest to being balanced towards other races battleships. im not saying that it is balanced but its not to far away. Maller,apoc,recons,carriers,dreadnought the list can go on you know? Quote: and i know why tuxford dont touch this thread with a barge pole as you put it, he dont fly amarr. Lol tux doest reply in this thread because it is THE crappiest whine ever...I mean you guys could bump sarmaul thread about amar ,now that seems a good whine. Quote: there has been a number of items or suggestions spilled into this thread, lots of good stuff and lots of not so good stuff and also just stuff to get people to wind up their brains and start thinking about amarr inbalance. Maybe because this thread has run out off course ,and it keeps being bumped to oblivion?and the Mods dont lock it? Quote: some people said that explosive crystals is impossible?, i beg to differ as we have seen here on page 93. look at amarr's arch enemy the minmatar, phased plasma that have extreme amounts of thermal dmg that just happens to be amarr's weakest resists. the minmatars do however have insane resists to amarr's dmg types, ever tried shooting a minmatar tech2 ship with pulses when it has 1 EM hardener on?, takes a while. Well you can have the explosive ammo (i'am 30M sp in minmatar ships ) when they decrease your rof,tracking,and put some kind of ammunition to relod 20 seconds plus the need to use amunition, and on top off that a lousy optimal. ..ohh wait that is minmater territory Quote: as for people saying that amarr isnt designed to be balanced 1v1 agains other races BS, why are all the other races BS resonably balanced when compared to eachother? You ever flown other races BS? Quote: lowslot advantage?, gone straight away as amarr need engineering mods to fit their most damaging guns wich still do less dmg then others. Cry me a river mate try fiting a mega with the most damaging guns and tank...A tempest with 800 and a mean tank... A deimos a munnin ..ohh S*** they cant all fit the most damaging guns without engineering mods ...
Elve Sorrow
AmarrShinra Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.10.15 13:52:00 -
[2748 ]
Originally by: Pesadel0 Maller,apoc,recons,carriers,dreadnought the list can go on you know? Please go on. The Maller is hardly as good as f.e. the Thorax or Rupture. The Apoc is pure ****, read the rest of the thread for the reasoning. Noone is whining about Recons. Same for Carrier. I could point out why the Revelation is the ****tiest Dread to have if youre up against an opponent that is willing to defend his POS, but really why bother? (Hint: Fly it before you comment on it.) Originally by: Pesadel0 Well you can have the explosive ammo (i'am 30M sp in minmatar ships ) when they decrease your rof,tracking,and put some kind of ammunition to relod 20 seconds plus the need to use amunition, and on top off that a lousy optimal. Sure. While your add it though, triple our Damage Mod, give us 4 types of damage, reduce the grid and CPU for our guns by about 50%, and triple our falloff aswell. Oh and give us a double damage bonus, ofcourse. Originally by: Pesadel0 You ever flown other races BS? Yea, youll find all of them are quite capable of closerange 1v1. Mega, Domi, Tempest, Raven. Weve just got the Geddon which is only decent in a gang because you cant tackle for ****. Originally by: Pesadel0 Cry me a river mate try fiting a mega with the most damaging guns and tank...A tempest with 800 and a mean tank... A deimos a munnin ..ohh S*** they cant all fit the most damaging guns without engineering mods ... Please do read the rest of the thread. Particularly the 10 posts above yours. Were talking about longrange guns here. You want to know why this thread got derailed? Its because of all the Minnies being afraid that we might achieve balance again. Like, oh, you. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.15 15:01:00 -
[2749 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Pesadel0 Maller,apoc,recons,carriers,dreadnought the list can go on you know? Please go on. The Maller is hardly as good as f.e. the Thorax or Rupture. The Apoc is pure ****, read the rest of the thread for the reasoning. Noone is whining about Recons. Same for Carrier. I could point out why the Revelation is the ****tiest Dread to have if youre up against an opponent that is willing to defend his POS, but really why bother? (Hint: Fly it before you comment on it.) Originally by: Pesadel0 Well you can have the explosive ammo (i'am 30M sp in minmatar ships ) when they decrease your rof,tracking,and put some kind of ammunition to relod 20 seconds plus the need to use amunition, and on top off that a lousy optimal. Sure. While your add it though, triple our Damage Mod, give us 4 types of damage, reduce the grid and CPU for our guns by about 50%, and triple our falloff aswell. Oh and give us a double damage bonus, ofcourse. Originally by: Pesadel0 You ever flown other races BS? Yea, youll find all of them are quite capable of closerange 1v1. Mega, Domi, Tempest, Raven. Weve just got the Geddon which is only decent in a gang because you cant tackle for ****. Originally by: Pesadel0 Cry me a river mate try fiting a mega with the most damaging guns and tank...A tempest with 800 and a mean tank... A deimos a munnin ..ohh S*** they cant all fit the most damaging guns without engineering mods ... Please do read the rest of the thread. Particularly the 10 posts above yours. Were talking about longrange guns here. You want to know why this thread got derailed? Its because of all the Minnies being afraid that we might achieve balance again. Like, oh, you. i couldnt have said it better myself, hats off for Elve as for Pesadel0's insinuations that i have no clue on any ships i can with 100% certainty claim that he has not a single clue in the world. i have been flying all ships except minmatar elite frigates and capital ships on another character and on this one im highly specialized in caldari ships and small and medium minmatar ships. /me tosses a clue to Pesadel0 Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.15 15:38:00 -
[2750 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Pesadel0 Well you can have the explosive ammo (i'am 30M sp in minmatar ships ) when they decrease your rof,tracking,and put some kind of ammunition to relod 20 seconds plus the need to use amunition, and on top off that a lousy optimal. Sure. While your add it though, triple our Damage Mod, give us 4 types of damage, reduce the grid and CPU for our guns by about 50%, and triple our falloff aswell. Oh and give us a double damage bonus, ofcourse. You missed "less turret slots" from the changes since your making lasers into projectiles. Don't get what your arguing about on this point anyway, giving lasers a choice of damage types totally removes the point of projectiles. Which needs the choice due to its low STARTING dps, hence SOME minny ships gets a dual bonus to damage and rof to try and bring up that low dps nearer lasers/hybrids. Yet with the dual bonus to turrets they are still lowest dps weapons/ships, its only the choice that allows them to compete. With regards to the proposed idea about skewing the hp balance its one of the better ideas, personally I don't think there is enough differences in the races as it is. Originally by: Elve Sorrow Yea, youll find all of them are quite capable of closerange 1v1. Mega, Domi, Tempest, Raven. Weve just got the Geddon which is only decent in a gang because you cant tackle for ****. This is the biggest thing I have issues with, you can have every race good at solo, there are only so many different combinations you can do... and you risk making every race the same. Amarr are good ships for gangs, not everything should be balanced on 1v1 comparisons. And don't blame minny's, you'll find a lot of stupid ideas from Amarr players that needed to be shot down. Stupid people are stupid people, theres no more of them in one race than another. And if you mean "regain balance" of full gank geddons pawning everything? yeah sure, cos minny's have had a taste of that... oh sorry they haven't. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.15 16:29:00 -
[2751 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Originally by: Elve Sorrow Sure. While your add it though, triple our Damage Mod, give us 4 types of damage, reduce the grid and CPU for our guns by about 50%, and triple our falloff aswell. Oh and give us a double damage bonus, ofcourse. You missed "less turret slots" from the changes since your making lasers into projectiles. Well, lets look at the Rupture. It has one less turret, but makes up for it with 2 extra missile slots and a drone bay over the Maller. The Tempest has 2 less guns than the Apoc, but has 2 extra high slots for missiles or nos if it chooses. The Apoc should be easier to fit, but AC fitting is so low that while the APoc is fitting RCU IIs the Tempest has no problem fitting its weapons. If we are talking long range, yes Amarr have a bit better DPS. But it's entirely worthless. Having better DPS at 200km is like having 15% better agility on your Dreadnaught. Yeah, its faster than other dreadnaughts, but still so slow as hell that its pointless. Quote: Mila Presoc]Yet with the dual bonus to turrets they are still lowest dps weapons/ships, its only the choice that allows them to compete.Mila - have you ever really looked at battleship DPS with realistic fittings? Or are you just going off what everyone else says, or the way things used to be waaaay back? Have you ever looked at the damage difference between a Zealot (turret specialist) and a Vagabond? And considered that with Barrage and resists the Vaga is actually BETTER than the dps listed here? Have you ever looked at Cruiser DPS??? If you look at projectiles base stats, they look low. Put them on a ship and kit the ship reasonably and its painfully clear that Matari "low dps" is a complete myth. While Amarr ships don't have thier old DPS advantage, are MUCH harder to fit, and current EAN II tanks have cut thier effective damage in half. Originally by: Mila Prestoc Amarr are good ships for gangs, not everything should be balanced on 1v1 comparisons. Vaga and Ishtar are better than a Zealot solo. But whats better than 5 Vagas in a gang. Or 5 Ishtars?? 1v1 isn't everything. But strong solo potential usually equals strong gang potential. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Elve Sorrow
AmarrShinra Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.10.15 17:17:00 -
[2752 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc You missed "less turret slots" from the changes since your making lasers into projectiles. Don't get what your arguing about on this point anyway, giving lasers a choice of damage types totally removes the point of projectiles. Which needs the choice due to its low STARTING dps, hence SOME minny ships gets a dual bonus to damage and rof to try and bring up that low dps nearer lasers/hybrids. Yet with the dual bonus to turrets they are still lowest dps weapons/ships, its only the choice that allows them to compete. Err yea, thanks for missing and proving my point in a single post. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.15 18:41:00 -
[2753 ]
Originally by: Nyxus .... Just cos my opinion is different doesn't make it wrong. If you read any of my previous posts I try to make it clear I agree there is a problem, just it isn't end of world like some make it out to be. Ok, my generalised statement wasn't accurate. I stand by the low dps AC's part, the ship part was the inaccurate part. It takes drones + missiles + dual damage bonus to makeup the damage for minny ships. Not even going to talk about those graphs, but the comparisons are random and not fair (comparing pure dps of rupture vs maller when rupture has both bonus's in damage and maller has extra low, tanking bonus and a spare high for example) My point was AC's don't have good damage on there own, they have choice of damage type to try and minimise what DPS it has from lowering. Difference is 800mm AC's don't add a lot of damage over Dual 425mm's, there is a very noticable increase in Dual Heavy's to Megapulse, which raises the question of with Amarr's high number of lows, gank setups + a choice of ammo will return to the old days of very high damage/range. Amarr/Lasers need tweeking, but not a drastic change, which is what I class Explosive Crystals as being. I don't understand why people keep putting everything in one topic, if they were seperate you can see the response and the bad ideas can die instead of getting bumped with the good ideas in this topic. Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Mila Prestoc You missed "less turret slots" from the changes since your making lasers into projectiles. Don't get what your arguing about on this point anyway, giving lasers a choice of damage types totally removes the point of projectiles. Which needs the choice due to its low STARTING dps, hence SOME minny ships gets a dual bonus to damage and rof to try and bring up that low dps nearer lasers/hybrids. Yet with the dual bonus to turrets they are still lowest dps weapons/ships, its only the choice that allows them to compete. Err yea, thanks for missing and proving my point in a single post. Didn't realise you had a point, looks like you were just arguing with someone how lasers and projectiles are different... ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.15 19:47:00 -
[2754 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 15/10/2006 19:48:57 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Just cos my opinion is different doesn't make it wrong... The point is that you only phrase *opinions*. What you need to do is look at the numbers - because unlike what you feel and "think" those are not subjective. For example: Quote: I stand by the low dps AC's part 1 Mega Pulse lasers has with MF and the generic 50% cap 21.9 dps. 1 800mm has with EMP L 18.1 dps. With the generic 25% ROF bonus thats 24.1 dps. 1 Ion blaster has with AM & the generic 25% damage bonus 30 dps. Notice something? The higher the range potential of the weapon the lower the dps. Of cource ACs have lower dps than blasters. They need no energy and can achieve higher ranges. But they have more max dps than pulse lasers. *Of cource* do ACs get outdamaged if you try to fight blasters at close range or pulses at long range. When you go against a blastership you will outrange it. Yes, working in falloff will reduce your damage, but you will still do mroe dps than blasters at range. The problem with the BS lvl is that this range begins at 20 km, though. Vs pulse lasers you will do higher dps than them on your optimal, there you have to go close. ACs are actually a pretty good example of minnie versatibility. Outrange blasters and outdamage pulses - you just need to control the range. Quote: Not even going to talk about those graphs, but the comparisons are random and not fair (comparing pure dps of rupture vs maller when rupture has both bonus's in damage and maller has extra low, tanking bonus and a spare high for example) Would be a point if gank = tank, but it isn't. Also, the high grindneed of lasers gives the maller considerable problems - if it wants to use cruiser sized pulses and mount the same tank as an AC rubbie it needs a RCU, so it's slot advantage is nil. And for any combat longer than 30 seconds the rupture has a better longterm tank because it's weapons do not need cap and the caprecharge of both ships is identical. Quote: Amarr/Lasers need tweeking, but not a drastic change, which is what I class Explosive Crystals as being. Depends what you define as "tweaking". Perhaps malediction style 1 more powergrid on all amarr ships and 0.01 higher damagemod of quad light pulse lasers?
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.15 20:43:00 -
[2755 ]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 15/10/2006 20:46:17 FFS Ara, now your taking my comments out of context and assuming the worst from that little closing comment, thought you'd know better. I'm not going to sit here and right an essay explaining all the fine little details that make up my opinion because thats what it would take, an essay due to all the factors and different arguements and comparisons that could be made... and don't knock thinking, cos I think about the fact's and experiences. Originally by: Aramendel The point is that you only phrase *opinions*. What you need to do is look at the numbers - because unlike what you feel and "think" those are not subjective. No, what you need to do is look at the facts then think about them and put them in contect. It's pure luck or thanks to covert ops if you land at your best DPS position. Lasers have greatest Optimal, so are most likely to land in there best range where others will have to travel at a reduced DPS then have to catch up to the damage lasers have been dealing. Hence my general opinion on the topic. Originally by: Aramendel 1 Mega Pulse lasers has with MF and the generic 50% cap 21.9 dps. 1 800mm has with EMP L 18.1 dps. With the generic 25% ROF bonus thats 24.1 dps. 1 Ion blaster has with AM & the generic 25% damage bonus 30 dps. ...cut... Yes, working in falloff will reduce your damage, but you will still do more dps than blasters at range. The problem with the BS lvl is that this range begins at 20 km, though. Vs pulse lasers you will do higher dps than them on your optimal, there you have to go close. Indeed Ara, hence "facts and numbers" show DPS of AC's to not be lowest at peak. I never said anything about peak, and you wisely made the comment about falloff which I take into account for my opinion. Your using 1v1 fight comparisons again which isn't a common way of fighting. That optimal allows for full instant dps where an AC using ship has to travel into range (unless lucky) and use falloff until close enough to use that slightly higher dps. At 20km to 40km an Amarr BS doesn't have to worry about moving around to get its max dps, it can target and shoot instantly while managing traversal or also managing its range (but still doing its full damage which is the difference). Mega, Pest, Phoon, ect all have to move to get there max damage output from there guns. As i've said, Amarr generally arn't good 1v1, but are better in gang situations. Originally by: Aramendel ACs are actually a pretty good example of minnie versatibility. Outrange blasters and outdamage pulses - you just need to control the range. Yes, I wasn't complaining about AC's (ammo use is a pain but nevermind). Originally by: Aramendel Would be a point if gank = tank, but it isn't. Also, the high grindneed of lasers gives the maller considerable problems - if it wants to use cruiser sized pulses and mount the same tank as an AC rubbie it needs a RCU, so it's slot advantage is nil. And for any combat longer than 30 seconds the rupture has a better longterm tank because it's weapons do not need cap and the caprecharge of both ships is identical. Again, problem of this topic, discussing everything all together. I didn't bring up Maller topic, he was most likely using that graph against my dps comments. I just mentioned that a ship designed as a tanking ship vs a damage ship isn't fair. I never said anything about how good/bad the maller is. Originally by: Aramendel Quote: Amarr/Lasers need tweeking, but not a drastic change, which is what I class Explosive Crystals as being. Depends what you define as "tweaking". Perhaps malediction style 1 more powergrid on all amarr ships and 0.01 higher damagemod of quad light pulse lasers? This is where you completely lost me, sarcastic snide unneeded comment there mate, don't lower your standards. I don't think major changes are needed, but lots of smaller changes ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.16 01:20:00 -
[2756 ]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Your using 1v1 fight comparisons again which isn't a common way of fighting. That optimal allows for full instant dps where an AC using ship has to travel into range (unless lucky) and use falloff until close enough to use that slightly higher dps. At 20km to 40km an Amarr BS doesn't have to worry about moving around to get its max dps, it can target and shoot instantly while managing traversal or also managing its range (but still doing its full damage which is the difference). Mega, Pest, Phoon, ect all have to move to get there max damage output from there guns. As i've said, Amarr generally arn't good 1v1, but are better in gang situations. 1v1 isn't the only combat, you are quite right there. And, yes, vs pulses an ship with ACs will have to move a bit. But the situation will be reveresed when facing a blaster ship. But, since you speak of "common way of fighting" - 20-40 km is most certainly NOT a common range there. The "common" range is sub20. Disruptor range, in other words. Either way, Pulses are perfectly fine. They could use a 30 km disruptor to make actually use of their "med range advantage", but thats about it (yes, yes, amarr are group ships..then why can a mega fit blasters (solo) and rails (group)?). I only wanted to show that ACs have no weak dps. They are max dps wise pretty much in between of pulses and blasters. They only have low dps when they fight at the edge of their falloff - and vs blasters that "low dps" there is still more dps than blasters do there. And if you fight vs an amarr ship there you are either using the wrong tactics or it is outranging you (which shouldn't be easy considering minnie ships are faster). Quote: I just mentioned that a ship designed as a tanking ship vs a damage ship isn't fair. It's not fair...but it changes nothing that minnie ships are not on the buttom of the dps distribution there. Also, while the maller is a tanking ship the armageddon certainly isn't..look at it's numbers vs the typhoon. Is that comparsion not "fair", too? Or, take the vagabound vs the zealot. The vagas dps is *higher*. Yes, the zealot can mount a better armortank, but the vagas speed is providing it with an at least as effective tank. Quote: This is where you completely lost me, sarcastic snide unneeded comment there mate, don't lower your standards. I don't think major changes are needed, but lots of smaller changes Sorry, I am just getting somewhat annoyed by the current "trend" - people saying "this is not good we need something else". It is really really easy to say something is bad. Actually providing an alternative is the tricky part. Basically, if you think that suggestion is bad come up with an alternative you prefer. If you "think" there is another solution do not make it matter of fact, but actually see if you can find one. And if not say at least that while you think there is an better solution you do not have any idea what it could be.
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.16 02:10:00 -
[2757 ]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 16/10/2006 02:13:41 Originally by: Aramendel Basically, if you think that suggestion is bad come up with an alternative you prefer. If you "think" there is another solution do not make it matter of fact, but actually see if you can find one. And if not say at least that while you think there is an better solution you do not have any idea what it could be. Challenge Accepted As a major change to the whole game, I really like the post earlier about the hp balances, i'd take that line of thought further with cap and speed/agility. I've been thinking about something like that for a while so might write up a post on the subject cos it deserves it's own topic really as its a much wider topic that doesn't deserve to be lost in this topic. Without the whole game changing ideas above i'd say:Small/med laser pg needs looking at, along with cruisers pg as the laser changes would effect all of them, Omens fitting is very hard even with smallest tier medium pulse lasers compared to a Maller. If Amarr has a drone cruiser why does its other cruisers not make use of drones? Increase Mallers drone bay to Omen level and Omen's drone bay slightly as an example. I still like the idea of making the compensation skills affect active hardeners resistances(that discussion hasn't been on E-O that i've seen), not to same level as passive but a 1% or 2% bonus should maybe make people consider fitting them over passive. Along with a small CPU use reduction. Not sure what the wider playerbase would use but it would definatly make them more interesting than currently. OR Lower both active and passive hardener resistances, the percentage increase from the compensation skill would be lower so won't be as close to/better than active hardeners. (not done maths on this and it's late so could be completely wrong, which wouldn't be unusual). Problem is making EANM not worth the slot... OR Nerf damage controls by either reducing/removing the shield/armour resists or reduce the hull resists. Small increase to the recharge rate so just using guns doesn't drain cap so hard with prolonged firing. That would be my initial changes, nothing hugely drastic but definite improvements, my favorite is the drone bay increase which could be accused of avoiding the problem of lasers on armour but some explosive drones would suppliment the EM/Therm lasers nicely. p.s.(I admit not looking at frigates, but you get my general line of thought. Long range weapons need a lot more work as a whole.) ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.16 03:07:00 -
[2758 ]
Edited by: Aramendel on 16/10/2006 03:09:19 1. is a basic problem/solution where pretty much everyone agress with. 2. is something new, though, and a good idea. 4. would be nice. At least amarr would then really have the "best" cap. Right now this is only the case for a few ships. 3... this is about the core problem. But first: --------------- Originally by: Mila Prestoc Lower both active and passive hardener resistances, the percentage increase from the compensation skill would be lower so won't be as close to/better than active hardeners. (not done maths on this and it's late so could be completely wrong, which wouldn't be unusual). Problem is making EANM not worth the slot.. Won't do anything. A has 4 apples, B has 2 apples. A has twice as many apples than B. Now reduce both peoples apples by 50%. A has 2 apples, B has 1 apple. A has twice... In short: reducing or increasing passive and active harderners won't change anything. What is important is the relation of both vs each other, and this won't change. Of cource, you could reduce passives by an higher amount that actives, but then you might as well just keep actives as they are and just decrease passives. --------------- Generally making active armor harderners more attractive/better than EAN2 would be one solution there (be it by re-nerfing EAN2 or letting compensation skills boost actives does not matter, same effect (well, mostly). But I do not really think it would be the best solution. Not because it would be not enough, but because it would make lasers actually a bit too powerful compared to other weapons. Let me explain:Basic problem Far more armor than shieldtankers & a weapon which is good vs the latter and bad vs the first.The balance problems there should be (hopefully) obvious.Why has this only become problem recently? Pre-RMR there was no viable omni-harderner and since armor already had high EM resists people used as most common 3 harderner fit 1 therm, kin, exp active, leading to around equal resists of all damagetypes. The 2 EAN2 + DC tank is superior to that in any way but price now, though, so the basic problem is not "masked" anymore.Solution suggestions - making the 3 active tank again the standard one by any means. Problem: With that one lasers actually had a small edge because they were fastest vs shields and still 2nd fastest vs armor hardered that way (and if the comp skills effect actives this advanatge would get even bigger than before). Although they were/are at a disadvantage vs setups which used no harderners but plates. - changing/redesigning enough ships so we have a 50:50 shield:armortanker relation. While this might be longterm & balancewise the best option it is also the by far most workintensive one. Not very realistic IMO. - explosive crystals. Does not really fit the amarr "flavor" IMO. And could open a whole can of worms balancewise. - more damage/loose the cap bonus/etc!!!11!1 Die. - change base resists. Which seems to me the best solution there. Reduces base armor resistance to 45% (55% for minnie ships), increase base shield EM resistance to 15%. Lasers would still do the least damage vs armor and the best vs shields, but the shield:armortanker imbalance won't effect them nearly as much. And it would both help amar with resistance and plate tanks. It seems to be a "drastic" change, but the effects should be smaller than something which takes us back to the old 3 active tank.
Tasty Burger
Posted - 2006.10.16 04:36:00 -
[2759 ]
Edited by: Tasty Burger on 16/10/2006 04:40:55 One thing I have a problem with is people not recognizing that fighting in falloff to, say, 30km and 5km optimal is a serious disadvantage to someone with 30km optimal and 5km falloff. Sure, as it goes past, say, 40km the falloff will do better but realistically, the damage will be so pathetic anyway that it isnt worth it to even fire your guns. And below 30km, the fact that gun A is fighting in falloff means its doing much less than base DPS. That aside... I think the only things that needs to be done: - Nerf EANMs and Invulns. Omni tanks are lame. - Nerf DCUs. Again, omni tanks are bad for balance. - Make small lasers easier to fit. - Give the zealot a 10m3 dronebay, the maller a 10m3 dronebay - Implement Khanid MK II. Its only fair that amarr get at least some options for alternative damage types. - Change Apoc's 5% capacitor bonus to something else. Laser optimal range, perhaps. - Nerf ECM (good for all eve tbfh.) But really, can't this thread die? edit: Quote: change base resists. Which seems to me the best solution there. Reduces base armor resistance to 45% (55% for minnie ships), increase base shield EM resistance to 15%. Lasers would still do the least damage vs armor and the best vs shields, but the shield:armortanker imbalance won't effect them nearly as much. And it would both help amar with resistance and plate tanks. K, but then I want the same done for explosive on shield and armor. Its pretty ridiculous when I can't break a passive-tanked nighthawk in a hail tempest, don't you think? And ravens... god. I suppose you can use PP or EMP on them but damage versatility isn't so hot when you need to spend 10 seconds reloading, and then you find out that he's actually running an EM hardener + 2 invuln and EMP was a bad idea, should have used PP, etc... /rant
Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.16 05:33:00 -
[2760 ]
Look, I've posted this before in other words, but I'll post it again: Amarr used to be the highest damage dealer, bar none. That was the role. Back then, Damage dealing was how you won, ew wasn't used much. I dont ever remember anyone using tracking disrupters, dampeners, nos and ecm's were rare on any ships other than scorps. CCP decided to attempt to balance Amarr by making the damage equivalent to all other races damage....which is fine, except 1 problem: ****CCP Made Amarr have the sole role of damage dealer. They gave us Guns that use way more cap, require extreme skills or extra mods to fit them, a lack of mids to use or defend against ew, and generally an easy race to jam. So when they nerfed them, they were lazy and didn't balance the rest. They cut off our damage and left us with the penalties of being the highest damage dealers.**** To fix Amarr, we either need our guns to do the insane damage they used to do and leave our stupid bonus', hard to fit guns and gimped ew ability....Or Give us our 2nd bonus, lower cap usage/fitting requirements on guns and to some extent allow us to use ew at least somewhat. ITS THAT SIMPLE GUYS. CCP Did half their job when we got nerfed (Damage mod stacking, crystal rebalancing, Beam damage nerf, new resistance mods). They need to finish balancing us or put us back to how we were. I've decided that I will train for gallante when its become evident that no Amarr help will be given. I seriously am starting to see less and less amarr ships flying around, which is indeed sad. P.S. Sac boost is pathetic. Another half arsed job by CCP.
DeadDuck
AmarrDAB RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.16 08:00:00 -
[2761 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata I seriously am starting to see less and less amarr ships flying around, which is indeed sad. On the other day I was in a heavy fleet ... in the midle +40 BS, I've noticed 3 yellow ships... my Apoc + 2 Geddons.... the rest were megatrons, tempests and scorpions ...
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
Posted - 2006.10.16 08:35:00 -
[2762 ]
Quote: Please go on. The Maller is hardly as good as f.e. the Thorax or Rupture. The Apoc is pure ****, read the rest of the thread for the reasoning. Noone is whining about Recons. Same for Carrier. I could point out why the Revelation is the ****tiest Dread to have if youre up against an opponent that is willing to defend his POS, but really why bother? (Hint: Fly it before you comment on it.) What you guys are saying is give me explosive munition ,if that doest change all the amar ships i dont know what does...Maller is a s**?Apoc too?Revelation too?I never said that amars don¦t need help but guess what other races ships need help too .Just because you think some ships are manure that doest make them so. Quote: Sure. While your add it though, triple our Damage Mod, give us 4 types of damage, reduce the grid and CPU for our guns by about 50%, and triple our falloff aswell. Oh and give us a double damage bonus, ofcourse. Rolling Eyes Common you can do better than that. Quote: Yea, youll find all of them are quite capable of closerange 1v1. Mega, Domi, Tempest, Raven. Weve just got the Geddon which is only decent in a gang because you cant tackle for ****. The gedon isnt a good 1vs1 one ship?Or the apoc? Quote: Please do read the rest of the thread. Particularly the 10 posts above yours. Were talking about longrange guns here. You want to know why this thread got derailed? Its because of all the Minnies being afraid that we might achieve balance again. Like, oh, you. I read the rest of the thread ,Apocs with AC without MWD and or afterburner , ,there is some good stuuf here but this thread is now one of those threads that should be cleaned and all the relevant posts be intact (and i'am not talking about mine or your for that matter). Balance in amar you mean the time were EVERYBODY and his mother were flying ammar,pulse geddons for the win? You want to be on top ,you don't want balance.
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.16 10:57:00 -
[2763 ]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 16/10/2006 10:59:19 Originally by: Aramendel change base resists. Which seems to me the best solution there. Reduces base armor resistance to 45% (55% for minnie ships), increase base shield EM resistance to 15%. Lasers would still do the least damage vs armor and the best vs shields, but the shield:armortanker imbalance won't effect them nearly as much. And it would both help amar with resistance and plate tanks. It seems to be a "drastic" change, but the effects should be smaller than something which takes us back to the old 3 active tank. Just as an additional idea, why not learn from shield resistances. Because EM is so low at 0% they typically use EM + 2x Invulns. So instead of upping EM and lowering Exp to make 3x invulns more attractive (lowering EM overall) we follow the example onto armour. Make Exp 0%. That way you are leaving a big hole if using 2x EANM + damage control tank (basically a version of 3x invuln shield tank). You could have to start fitting an Exp active hardener, making the combo's: 1x EXP, 1z EANM + damage control. 3x Active Hardeners. Not sure what peoples thoughts on what setup they would use but I would seriously be tempeted by 3x actives if I am forced to use an exp to start with. Of course this boost to projectiles could end up being a nerf if the common tank became Exp + 1x EANM + damage control..... meh my head hurts, no wonder tux doesn't reply unless he has some idea of what to do... its not as simple as some people make out. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.16 11:46:00 -
[2764 ]
Originally by: Tasty Burger K, but then I want the same done for explosive on shield and armor. Its pretty ridiculous when I can't break a passive-tanked nighthawk in a hail tempest, don't you think? And ravens... god. I suppose you can use PP or EMP on them but damage versatility isn't so hot when you need to spend 10 seconds reloading, and then you find out that he's actually running an EM hardener + 2 invuln and EMP was a bad idea, should have used PP, etc... If you really think it is best I would have no problems with it. But I honestly wouldn't recommend that change because it would be in the end a nerf for minnies. Think about it. We have under perfect conditions (= every ship which "should" shieldtank does so) still twice as many armortankers than shieldtankers. You would trade x% less resistance on 33% of all ships for x% more resistance on 66% of all ships. You would have less problems with some special cases, but your average dps vs all ships would decrease.
Elve Sorrow
AmarrShinra Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.10.16 11:48:00 -
[2765 ]
Originally by: Pesadel0 The gedon isnt a good 1vs1 one ship?Or the apoc? Have you ever tried 1v1 in a Geddon? You know, 3 meds? You know howmany you need to tackle? Yup, MWD Web Scram. Now, after you magically managed to fit something resembling a tank, you run out of juice for it after about 20 seconds. Drop the web and you wont be hitting ****, drop the Scram ... Do i really have to explain? Originally by: Pesadel0 Balance in amar you mean the time were EVERYBODY and his mother were flying ammar,pulse geddons for the win? You want to be on top ,you don't want balance. I never said i wanted everyone to fly Pulse Geddons. Id like atleast some people to fly it though. And im already on top. Elve flies Amarr and Minmatar, my alt flies Gallente and Minmatar and my third acc flies Caldari. (Did you spot which race i trained twice, btw?) Balance. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.16 12:45:00 -
[2766 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Have you ever tried 1v1 in a Geddon? You know, 3 meds? You know howmany you need to tackle? Yup, MWD Web Scram. Now, after you magically managed to fit something resembling a tank, you run out of juice for it after about 20 seconds. Drop the web and you wont be hitting ****, drop the Scram ... Do i really have to explain? At risk of being shouted at... 125m3 drone bay so how about some web drones? Even against a MWDing Tempest it would knock its speed down to 200ish. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
Posted - 2006.10.16 13:41:00 -
[2767 ]
Edited by: Pesadel0 on 16/10/2006 13:42:45 Quote: Have you ever tried 1v1 in a Geddon? You know, 3 meds? You know howmany you need to tackle? Yup, MWD Web Scram. Now, after you magically managed to fit something resembling a tank, you run out of juice for it after about 20 seconds. Drop the web and you wont be hitting ****, drop the Scram ... Do i really have to explain? Erm drone bay?Do i really need to explain?Whit out web you wont hit s*** against another BS? Quote: I never said i wanted everyone to fly Pulse Geddons. Id like atleast some people to fly it though. Rolling Eyes That is really weird cause i have alot amar friends that love the poc and geddon,it is just a matter of perspective maybe? Quote: And im already on top. Elve flies Amarr and Minmatar, my alt flies Gallente and Minmatar and my third acc flies Caldari. (Did you spot which race i trained twice, btw?) Herm minmatar ??,maybe because it's fun?Shock and maybe because a minmatar specialistic has advantage too switch between races freely. My alt is ammar so does that mean i choose a *** race whit *** weapons??Maybe because some off their ships are fun. Balance?The thing is do amar players are whiling to have more damage types and receive penalties?
Tasty Burger
Posted - 2006.10.16 15:58:00 -
[2768 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Tasty Burger K, but then I want the same done for explosive on shield and armor. Its pretty ridiculous when I can't break a passive-tanked nighthawk in a hail tempest, don't you think? And ravens... god. I suppose you can use PP or EMP on them but damage versatility isn't so hot when you need to spend 10 seconds reloading, and then you find out that he's actually running an EM hardener + 2 invuln and EMP was a bad idea, should have used PP, etc... If you really think it is best I would have no problems with it. But I honestly wouldn't recommend that change because it would be in the end a nerf for minnies. Think about it. We have under perfect conditions (= every ship which "should" shieldtank does so) still twice as many armortankers than shieldtankers. You would trade x% less resistance on 33% of all ships for x% more resistance on 66% of all ships. You would have less problems with some special cases, but your average dps vs all ships would decrease. Perhaps part of the problem is that shield tanking is completely pointless as: A) You can't fit more important things like webs, scrams, tracking computers or anything unless you have 7 or 8 midslots like caldari ships. (another IWIN for caldari, who woulda thought?) B) Better to just use ECM tbh. And gallente ships are quite the rage nowdays, they armor tank.
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.16 16:26:00 -
[2769 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Look, I've posted this before in other words, but I'll post it again: Amarr used to be the highest damage dealer, bar none. That was the role. Back then, Damage dealing was how you won, ew wasn't used much. I dont ever remember anyone using tracking disrupters, dampeners, nos and ecm's were rare on any ships other than scorps. CCP decided to attempt to balance Amarr by making the damage equivalent to all other races damage....which is fine, except 1 problem: ****CCP Made Amarr have the sole role of damage dealer. They gave us Guns that use way more cap, require extreme skills or extra mods to fit them, a lack of mids to use or defend against ew, and generally an easy race to jam. So when they nerfed them, they were lazy and didn't balance the rest. They cut off our damage and left us with the penalties of being the highest damage dealers.**** To fix Amarr, we either need our guns to do the insane damage they used to do and leave our stupid bonus', hard to fit guns and gimped ew ability....Or Give us our 2nd bonus, lower cap usage/fitting requirements on guns and to some extent allow us to use ew at least somewhat. ITS THAT SIMPLE GUYS. CCP Did half their job when we got nerfed (Damage mod stacking, crystal rebalancing, Beam damage nerf, new resistance mods). They need to finish balancing us or put us back to how we were. I've decided that I will train for gallante when its become evident that no Amarr help will be given. I seriously am starting to see less and less amarr ships flying around, which is indeed sad. P.S. Sac boost is pathetic. Another half arsed job by CCP. A great post, now do like the others and email this to CCP. Even if Tux is ignoring us, it might happen that some of the others devs wont.
Lazy8s
Posted - 2006.10.16 16:52:00 -
[2770 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Cosmo Raata Look, I've posted this before in other words, but I'll post it again: Amarr used to be the highest damage dealer, bar none. That was the role. Back then, Damage dealing was how you won, ew wasn't used much. I dont ever remember anyone using tracking disrupters, dampeners, nos and ecm's were rare on any ships other than scorps. CCP decided to attempt to balance Amarr by making the damage equivalent to all other races damage....which is fine, except 1 problem: ****CCP Made Amarr have the sole role of damage dealer. They gave us Guns that use way more cap, require extreme skills or extra mods to fit them, a lack of mids to use or defend against ew, and generally an easy race to jam. So when they nerfed them, they were lazy and didn't balance the rest. They cut off our damage and left us with the penalties of being the highest damage dealers.**** To fix Amarr, we either need our guns to do the insane damage they used to do and leave our stupid bonus', hard to fit guns and gimped ew ability....Or Give us our 2nd bonus, lower cap usage/fitting requirements on guns and to some extent allow us to use ew at least somewhat. ITS THAT SIMPLE GUYS. CCP Did half their job when we got nerfed (Damage mod stacking, crystal rebalancing, Beam damage nerf, new resistance mods). They need to finish balancing us or put us back to how we were. I've decided that I will train for gallante when its become evident that no Amarr help will be given. I seriously am starting to see less and less amarr ships flying around, which is indeed sad. P.S. Sac boost is pathetic. Another half arsed job by CCP. A great post, now do like the others and email this to CCP. Even if Tux is ignoring us, it might happen that some of the others devs wont. I recently started training amarr (I stopped) because this became PAINFULLY obvious. Amarrs have the most lowslots, great that's their obvious advantage right? Except the more I trained the more I realized I would have traded a loe GLADLY for a med slot on any ship. Now, I know with some of the T2s they do have that extra midslot, but after the second HS you start to realize that a 3rd HS is no advantage. A cap injector? now that would be an advantage, or an ECM or ECCM. Amarr aren't unplayable, but the stacking penalty is imho (granted I never got past the prophecy) what's killing them. Now don't get me wrong, I know it can't be removed for obvious reasons but since it exists amarr need something to compensate for it badly.
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.16 22:06:00 -
[2771 ]
Originally by: Tasty Burger Perhaps part of the problem is that shield tanking is completely pointless as: A) You can't fit more important things like webs, scrams, tracking computers or anything unless you have 7 or 8 midslots like caldari ships. (another IWIN for caldari, who woulda thought?) B) Better to just use ECM tbh. And gallente ships are quite the rage nowdays, they armor tank. It's not only that. The "ECM > (any) tank" problematic is increasing the effect (right now 1:4 or 1:9 ratios would be more realistic for shield:armortanker relations in PvP), be we also have no equal shield:armortanker ship distribution if everything would be fine there (it would be 1:2 then). Amarr: 100% armortank Gallente: 100% armortank Caldari: 100% shieldtank Minnie: 50% armor, 50% shieldtank. Do the math. Of cource, we have quite a lot caldari pilots, so those number mustn't necessarily be those ingame. But CCP published the current BS numbers in EOS 02. If you handled every raven & scorp and 33% of the tempests as shieldtanker there you got pretty much a 1:2 armor:shieldtanker relation with the real ingame numbers.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.17 11:07:00 -
[2772 ]
FIX AMARR!! this century pls. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Kery Nysell
CaldariNysell Incorporated
Posted - 2006.10.17 11:14:00 -
[2773 ]
Originally by: Tasty Burger Perhaps part of the problem is that shield tanking is completely pointless as: A) You can't fit more important things like webs, scrams, tracking computers or anything unless you have 7 or 8 midslots like caldari ships. (another IWIN for caldari, who woulda thought?) B) Better to just use ECM tbh. And gallente ships are quite the rage nowdays, they armor tank. There's only ONE ship with 8 medslots (Scorpion) and TWO ships with 7 medslots (Falcon and Rook) in the caldari lineup, GREAT IWIN button isn't it ? Of course, those ships are the specialized platforms for ECM, with a truly great damage output ...
XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.10.17 11:29:00 -
[2774 ]
Originally by: Kery Nysell Originally by: Tasty Burger Perhaps part of the problem is that shield tanking is completely pointless as: A) You can't fit more important things like webs, scrams, tracking computers or anything unless you have 7 or 8 midslots like caldari ships. (another IWIN for caldari, who woulda thought?) B) Better to just use ECM tbh. And gallente ships are quite the rage nowdays, they armor tank. There's only ONE ship with 8 medslots (Scorpion) and TWO ships with 7 medslots (Falcon and Rook) in the caldari lineup, GREAT IWIN button isn't it ? Of course, those ships are the specialized platforms for ECM, with a truly great damage output ... you dont need a tank when you have ecm, they are fleet support ships so id agree they dont have good output.
Kery Nysell
CaldariNysell Incorporated
Posted - 2006.10.17 11:47:00 -
[2775 ]
Originally by: XGS Crimson Originally by: Kery Nysell Originally by: Tasty Burger Perhaps part of the problem is that shield tanking is completely pointless as: A) You can't fit more important things like webs, scrams, tracking computers or anything unless you have 7 or 8 midslots like caldari ships. (another IWIN for caldari, who woulda thought?) B) Better to just use ECM tbh. And gallente ships are quite the rage nowdays, they armor tank. There's only ONE ship with 8 medslots (Scorpion) and TWO ships with 7 medslots (Falcon and Rook) in the caldari lineup, GREAT IWIN button isn't it ? Of course, those ships are the specialized platforms for ECM, with a truly great damage output ... you dont need a tank when you have ecm, they are fleet support ships so id agree they dont have good output. I agree, I was just pointing that there's only 3 ships with that slot layout in the game, and that those three ships have problems in the DPS department ... hardly an "IWIN button" in my opinion ...
JustBlaze
Posted - 2006.10.17 12:28:00 -
[2776 ]
tis ture- and ture means true
Tenebrious
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:24:00 -
[2777 ]
Originally by: Xendie FIX AMARR!! this century pls. Seriously.
Tasty Burger
Posted - 2006.10.17 16:17:00 -
[2778 ]
Originally by: Aramendel It's not only that. The "ECM > (any) tank" problematic is increasing the effect (right now 1:4 or 1:9 ratios would be more realistic for shield:armortanker relations in PvP), be we also have no equal shield:armortanker ship distribution if everything would be fine there (it would be 1:2 then). Amarr: 100% armortank Gallente: 100% armortank Caldari: 100% shieldtank Minnie: 50% armor, 50% shieldtank. Do the math. Of cource, we have quite a lot caldari pilots, so those number mustn't necessarily be those ingame. But CCP published the current BS numbers in EOS 02. If you handled every raven & scorp and 33% of the tempests as shieldtanker there you got pretty much a 1:2 armor:shieldtanker relation with the real ingame numbers. What do you propose to fix that? I'm afraid that even if they made ECM less effective I'd still armor tank minmatar ships, because, frankly, medslots are more important than lows. Armor tanking simply is a better option. Its more cap efficient than shield tanking except on the battleship level (with 2 LAR II vs XL 2 + SBA). And for obvious reasons you can't fit an XL 2 with a shield boost amp on a tempest - CPU just won't allow it, and its impractical. The problem is that boosting shield tanking wouldn't help minmatar because they still need to fit stuff in our mediocre midslots, and it would make caldari even stronger than they are now as they are the only ones that can effectively shield tank anything.
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
Posted - 2006.10.17 16:42:00 -
[2779 ]
If they implemented a sweeping re-distribution of HP's as I suggested on the previous page it would make it far more sensible to shield tank a number of ships (assuming ECM gets looked at). Plus the extra HP's applied to Amarr ships (up to 50% of shield HP's re-distributed to armour) would beef up their tank significantly. ----------- Office Linebacker -
Asurix
CaldariSharks on a Plane
Posted - 2006.10.17 18:08:00 -
[2780 ]
All I wanna say is that I think amarr has no edge in any area whatsoever... The best tank is no longer valid but the biggest problem is the omni tank is affecting our damage too much... In my opinion switch the main dmg type on crystals to thermal or make it 50/50, this will solve some of the problem Also I think amarr ships should get an increase in PG because all amarr can do is tank/gank, they suck at EW, so imho amarr should atleast be able to do the two things they are supposed to have an edge in simultaneously, namely: tank and gank
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.17 18:21:00 -
[2781 ]
Originally by: Tasty Burger What do you propose to fix that?... See the "solution suggestions" tab of the my first post of this page. I would disagree that the cap effecient shield tanking existing only exists on the BS lvl, though. Heavy tank setups with dual MAR or large SB + boost amp exist on the cruiser/BC lvl. For light-medium tanks armor reps are more cap effective, though, that is true. Originally by: Gabriel Karade If they implemented a sweeping re-distribution of HP's as I suggested on the previous page it would make it far more sensible to shield tank a number of ships (assuming ECM gets looked at). Plus the extra HP's applied to Amarr ships (up to 50% of shield HP's re-distributed to armour) would beef up their tank significantly. It would bring many ships which "should" shield tank to do so, yes. But the problem would still be there then, just not as strongly. You would need to redesign 12-15% of all ships in EVE from armor to shieldtank to give the game equal numbers of armor & shieldtanks (and I am quite aware that this is a somewhat unrealistic option).
Securion Wolfheart
CaldariSemper Fidelis Industries
Posted - 2006.10.17 19:23:00 -
[2782 ]
I have alot of amarr friends, and not a single one of them fly amarr if they can fly another races ships. As soon as they get their first amarr cruiser they start training for Caldari ships instead. They all do/did. And by talking to FCs, CEOs and experienced players for large corp/alliances in 0.0 space; they all seem to agree, amarr just dont work in 0.0 space. And that is EVE reality, in game, right now. Amarr is gone? -----====----- "When you come slam bang up against trouble, it never looks half as bad if you face up to it." - John Wayne
Viktor Tessela
Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.17 23:09:00 -
[2783 ]
I stubbornly stick to the amarr even now. I've got frig/cruiser V, specialized up to 3 in both medium pulse and beam. But I started training up gallente, first just for the dominix (Being able to mine and rat at once while still ready to give any ganker a hard time? Hard to resist), but I'm tempted to stick with them. I already have drones from using the arbitrator, so it's not like I'm completely gimped by making the switch. But I have a lot invested into amarr Vs, so.. hopefully that won't be necessary. But the one thing I'm really focusing on: Battlecruisers to V. Then I'll be able to use (after Kali) 2 ships from each race to their max effectiveness. No more of this flavor-of-the-month crap, at least in some way.
regergy6h
Posted - 2006.10.18 01:07:00 -
[2784 ]
the majoratory of amarr pilots who find thier ships good will not post here because they will be flamed and spoken to like a piece of sh*t, i only have a few friends who fly amarr but they are all satisfied with their ships and say that its their fav race.
Miri Tirzan
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.18 02:15:00 -
[2785 ]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 18/10/2006 02:15:25 Originally by: regergy6h the majoratory of amarr pilots who find thier ships good will not post here because they will be flamed and spoken to like a piece of sh*t, i only have a few friends who fly amarr but they are all satisfied with their ships and say that its their fav race. So? I fly Amarr ships too, and am specialized in both beam and pulse an since the pulse nerf, crystal nerf, and EANM buff, lasers as weapons have sucked. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.18 11:40:00 -
[2786 ]
i used to fly amarr almost exclusively. not i fly caldari and gallente, go figure Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Kerdrak
Amarr3B Legio IX Chimaera Pact
Posted - 2006.10.18 14:55:00 -
[2787 ]
Are devs thinking about amarr problem or simply they think amarr stuff is fine? ________________________________________First atheist amarr on EVE
Byzan Zwyth
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.18 21:38:00 -
[2788 ]
who knows ---------------------- I fly Amarr and Gallente ships Amarr because they peow peow - and look cool... Gallente because they are effective
Nicocat
CaldariNew Age Solutions
Posted - 2006.10.18 22:14:00 -
[2789 ]
I am impressed. ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls.
Grytok
Posted - 2006.10.19 00:52:00 -
[2790 ]
I allready posted this elsewhere, but I will do so here again. Amarr-Ships are just fine, as long as you don't use Lasers The best setup so far working on a Prophecy for example is to go with 250mm Rails. They need less powergrid and less capa, so you can set up a decent tank, not needing any powerups for the weapons. I've tried it out with same skills in Energy- and Hybrid-Weapons. As long as you don't have Insane skills like Advanced Weapon Upgrades LVL 5, you're not able to fit Heavy Beams to a Prophecy without at least one RCU, which would take a piece of your tanking-ability. And when you have those skills, then there is so much powergrid left, if you put on Rails instead of Lasers, that you can tank even more Amarr need to be made even again, not uber, but even. Cut down on a bit the powergrid- and capacitor-needs for Lasers, so they can be fitted without nerfing the tank. And at least I repeat my previous postings: Swap EM for Thermal damage. Lasers do damage due to heat and not due electro-magnetics. Where did you go to school to miss that one .
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.19 07:26:00 -
[2791 ]
Originally by: Grytok I allready posted this elsewhere, but I will do so here again. Amarr-Ships are just fine, as long as you don't use Lasers The best setup so far working on a Prophecy for example is to go with 250mm Rails. They need less powergrid and less capa, so you can set up a decent tank, not needing any powerups for the weapons. I've tried it out with same skills in Energy- and Hybrid-Weapons. As long as you don't have Insane skills like Advanced Weapon Upgrades LVL 5, you're not able to fit Heavy Beams to a Prophecy without at least one RCU, which would take a piece of your tanking-ability. And when you have those skills, then there is so much powergrid left, if you put on Rails instead of Lasers, that you can tank even more Amarr need to be made even again, not uber, but even. Cut down on a bit the powergrid- and capacitor-needs for Lasers, so they can be fitted without nerfing the tank. And at least I repeat my previous postings: Swap EM for Thermal damage. Lasers do damage due to heat and not due electro-magnetics. Where did you go to school to miss that one what you are describing are one of the points of this thread. minmatar shouldnt be more effective with rails and they arent but some amarr ships work better with rails or projectiles. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Dano Sarum
Giants in the Playground Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.19 10:28:00 -
[2792 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Look, I've posted this before in other words, but I'll post it again: Amarr used to be the highest damage dealer, bar none. That was the role. Back then, Damage dealing was how you won, ew wasn't used much. I dont ever remember anyone using tracking disrupters, dampeners, nos and ecm's were rare on any ships other than scorps. CCP decided to attempt to balance Amarr by making the damage equivalent to all other races damage....which is fine, except 1 problem: ****CCP Made Amarr have the sole role of damage dealer. They gave us Guns that use way more cap, require extreme skills or extra mods to fit them, a lack of mids to use or defend against ew, and generally an easy race to jam. So when they nerfed them, they were lazy and didn't balance the rest. They cut off our damage and left us with the penalties of being the highest damage dealers.**** To fix Amarr, we either need our guns to do the insane damage they used to do and leave our stupid bonus', hard to fit guns and gimped ew ability....Or Give us our 2nd bonus, lower cap usage/fitting requirements on guns and to some extent allow us to use ew at least somewhat. ITS THAT SIMPLE GUYS. CCP Did half their job when we got nerfed (Damage mod stacking, crystal rebalancing, Beam damage nerf, new resistance mods). They need to finish balancing us or put us back to how we were. I've decided that I will train for gallante when its become evident that no Amarr help will be given. I seriously am starting to see less and less amarr ships flying around, which is indeed sad. P.S. Sac boost is pathetic. Another half arsed job by CCP. Ok that was worth reading. ========== -DanoGitP Recruitment
Misanth
Posted - 2006.10.19 11:09:00 -
[2793 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata Look, I've posted this before in other words, but I'll post it again: Amarr used to be the highest damage dealer, bar none. That was the role. Back then, Damage dealing was how you won, ew wasn't used much. I dont ever remember anyone using tracking disrupters, dampeners, nos and ecm's were rare on any ships other than scorps. CCP decided to attempt to balance Amarr by making the damage equivalent to all other races damage....which is fine, except 1 problem: ****CCP Made Amarr have the sole role of damage dealer. They gave us Guns that use way more cap, require extreme skills or extra mods to fit them, a lack of mids to use or defend against ew, and generally an easy race to jam. So when they nerfed them, they were lazy and didn't balance the rest. They cut off our damage and left us with the penalties of being the highest damage dealers.**** To fix Amarr, we either need our guns to do the insane damage they used to do and leave our stupid bonus', hard to fit guns and gimped ew ability....Or Give us our 2nd bonus, lower cap usage/fitting requirements on guns and to some extent allow us to use ew at least somewhat. ITS THAT SIMPLE GUYS. CCP Did half their job when we got nerfed (Damage mod stacking, crystal rebalancing, Beam damage nerf, new resistance mods). They need to finish balancing us or put us back to how we were. I've decided that I will train for gallante when its become evident that no Amarr help will be given. I seriously am starting to see less and less amarr ships flying around, which is indeed sad. P.S. Sac boost is pathetic. Another half arsed job by CCP. Fairly new player to EvE, pure Amarr so far.. and it saddens me alot but this is the conclusion I came to as well. Waiting to see more news about the new ships and while going there I'm just maxing drone skills and similar which I could make use of whichever race I use.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.19 16:27:00 -
[2794 ]
Originally by: Misanth Fairly new player to EvE, pure Amarr so far.. and it saddens me alot but this is the conclusion I came to as well. Waiting to see more news about the new ships and while going there I'm just maxing drone skills and similar which I could make use of whichever race I use. w00t Drones and blasters and rails and torps and everything but beams and pulses ftw Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Dupac
Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains
Posted - 2006.10.19 19:49:00 -
[2795 ]
The proposed HP boost just made this thread 50% more relevant If you thought lasers sucked against armour at the minute - just wait till after kali, you'll be able to go have dinner come back and still not be through 50% more armour :( assuming you actually have the cap ofc /sarcasm but on the plus side, the sac will have more grid and cpu \o/ yay /sarcasm
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.19 19:56:00 -
[2796 ]
Originally by: ****c The proposed HP boost just made this thread 50% more relevant If you thought lasers sucked against armour at the minute - just wait till after kali, you'll be able to go have dinner come back and still not be through 50% more armour :( assuming you actually have the cap ofc /sarcasm but on the plus side, the sac will have more grid and cpu \o/ yay /sarcasm with the abbadon and without 8 accounts ferrying capboosters to you you will be dead before you get to the kitchen to get your coffe. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.19 19:58:00 -
[2797 ]
Originally by: ****c /sarcasm but on the plus side, the sac will have more grid and cpu \o/ yay /sarcasm the sac "modification" is just a play for the gallery so he can say "look i did fix amarr" when he infact took one of the worst hacs and did alittle to it. what about the rest of amarr issues Tuxford? Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Wodin Drukvik
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.10.19 20:09:00 -
[2798 ]
Tuxford's current take: Quote: <DevilsEnigma> <Bek> Question: Are you happy with the current state of Amarrian ships and weapons? Do you feel they're balanced in relationship to the other races in Eve today? <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. The problem is that there are some problems with Amarr but aren't really fixed by changing Amarr. <tuxford> One problem is damage types and eanm. The problem isn't fixed by boosting laser damage but changing EANM. How has yet to be decided on. <tuxford> Another problem is how hard it is to fit beams but tbh other races have that as well like Minmatar <tuxford> The third is that Amarr is missing something extra special, some flavor. <tuxford> we do indeed talk about these things but in general I think certain people tend to overexaggerate the problem From the horse's mouth you have it. I'm not really sure what fitting problems(other than the Muninn) he's referring to with artillery, but I guess he's got something in mind. There's also this detail, for those worrying about cap use in guns. Quote: <[QT]omghax0r> <Mitchman-> ... With the increase in HP again, there is large imbalance created. Ships that use cap when firing their guns will have less so now to finish off a target, and cap charges will run out much faster. Suggestion: Reduce cap use on guns by 50% and volume of charges by 50%. Thoughts? <tuxford> Personally I like the idea of the possibility of running out of charges in a fight. Cap boosters have come something of a must have module and its come up to the point that the one with bigger cargo hold wins. Well ok not quite but still you should see my point. Ammo is a different story its well possible that we'd reduce the volume of those Apparently he likes the way the new HP totals interact with the current weapons systems.
xenorx
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.10.19 20:13:00 -
[2799 ]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata I've decided that I will train for gallante when its become evident that no Amarr help will be given. I seriously am starting to see less and less amarr ships flying around, which is indeed sad. I feel your pain Cosmo. I now have about 2 days left on Gheylente BS IV to go. Then on to Rails/Blasters. Now I can be just like everyone else. CCP wins, they have been preaching to everyone for years to specialize. I just wish they would have come out back then and told us all to specialize in Gheylente. Would have saved us all a ton of wasted training time.No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
xenorx
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.10.19 20:16:00 -
[2800 ]
Originally by: Wodin Drukvik Tuxford's current take: Quote: <DevilsEnigma> <Bek> Question: Are you happy with the current state of Amarrian ships and weapons? Do you feel they're balanced in relationship to the other races in Eve today? <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. The problem is that there are some problems with Amarr but aren't really fixed by changing Amarr. <tuxford> One problem is damage types and eanm. The problem isn't fixed by boosting laser damage but changing EANM. How has yet to be decided on. <tuxford> Another problem is how hard it is to fit beams but tbh other races have that as well like Minmatar <tuxford> The third is that Amarr is missing something extra special, some flavor. <tuxford> we do indeed talk about these things but in general I think certain people tend to overexaggerate the problem From the horse's mouth you have it. I'm not really sure what fitting problems(other than the Muninn) he's referring to with artillery, but I guess he's got something in mind. There's also this detail, for those worrying about cap use in guns. Quote: <[QT]omghax0r> <Mitchman-> ... With the increase in HP again, there is large imbalance created. Ships that use cap when firing their guns will have less so now to finish off a target, and cap charges will run out much faster. Suggestion: Reduce cap use on guns by 50% and volume of charges by 50%. Thoughts? <tuxford> Personally I like the idea of the possibility of running out of charges in a fight. Cap boosters have come something of a must have module and its come up to the point that the one with bigger cargo hold wins. Well ok not quite but still you should see my point. Ammo is a different story its well possible that we'd reduce the volume of those Apparently he likes the way the new HP totals interact with the current weapons systems. Well Ill have to go hunt the whole chat down and read it my self. However, from reading just that much I feel the need to puke.No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.19 21:06:00 -
[2801 ]
looks like he wants everyone to **** around in nos domi's with shedloads of ECM tuxford is a **** that has no clue on the inner workings and interactions between the different races in this game. why on earth anyone would employ someone like him just to drive their customers away i cannot understand. because i doubt that CCP is intending to drive away their customers. ...or are they? maybe seeing as they let that incompetent person still work for them. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.19 21:31:00 -
[2802 ]
It seems to me that Tux is missing the point. With the Amarr, theoretically we are to have the advanatage of having ammo-less weapons. However, I would disagree with this assertion. Given the cap use of lasers, it is not really that much of an advantage. Its nowhere near possible to run Amarr weapons forever due to cap requirements. This requires Amarr to fit cap modules on their ships. The low damage of the amarr is enough of a problem when killing ships now. Simply enough, I don't think there exists a viable sustainable setup. Let me explain why. Cap modules take medslots or lowslots. There are a number of them. Let's start with Cap Rechargers. Cap rechargers are great modules for recharging cap. They are relatively easy to fit and outwardly have no penalties. However, the Amarr have very few medslots. This means that every Cap Recharger you fit is a web you don't fit, a scram you don't fit, an afterburner you don't fit, or an ECCM you don't fit. This is a massive problem because: -> Amarr are outclassed in close combat due to the min range of Megapulses and lack of any sort of tank whatsoever(even if you ignore the incredibly weak damage output), putting them in particular danger without an AB or MWD (not that they have the PG to fit either with a rack of pulses on an armageddon) or a web to attempt to keep enemies away. -> Amarr have REALLY low sensor strength, in many battlefields it is suicide to undock without one - that is another medslot that more or less needs to be occupied in many situations -> You cannot PvP if the enemy just warps out on you - If you can't scram, how can you fight? -> 2x named Cap Rechargers cannot run a rack of Megapulse IIs indefinately by any means, and the Cap Recharger II market is absurd making them in many situations not a very viable option. I am not even confident they can run that, anyhow. Capacitor boosters face the same problem of occupying one of the precious midslots, but also run into more issues. First, fitting a cap booster on an Amarr Battleship is simply not possible with a full rack of megapulses with unmodified Powergrid. Even were you to gimp your lows with some RCUIIs then you realise that your CPU is incredibly low after cramming that booster on. Not to mention you just killed the point of hamming and Ammo-less ship if you have to carry cap booster charges to run your guns. And yes, it is just your guns since you won't have the room for a tank on top of all that. Capactior Power Relays and other lowslot engineering modules that are far too often necessary when fitting Amarr vessels totally defeat the point of having extra lowslots. If you need so many filled just to fit and run your guns then either the ammo-less guns or the extra lowslots are completely pointless. Both are supposed to be signature parts of the Amarr ship philosophy but they end up stabbing each other in the foot. See the issue here? Its created (I think) by these issues compounding each other (primarily the last of these): -> Low damage for the Amarr requiring extended combat even with High-damage weapons (This is acceptable if Amarr is sustainable and can function encouraging this sort of fight - I would say that perhaps the ammo-less Amarr should be able to take advantage of something like this) -> High Cap use on Amarr weapons (not acceptable if assuming the above is - and no, that cap use bonus on some of the ships does not help, it still sucks and those without it suffer more) -> High Fitting requirements on Amarr Weapons (PG namely, and CPU gets eaten in an attempt to fit things to compensate - CPU is rather low on Amarr Vessels) Fear is the mind-killer.
Shugo Kazuma
Posted - 2006.10.19 21:36:00 -
[2803 ]
I dunno about anyone else, but shouldn't someone who's in charge of game balance play all 4 races? Good thing I still have a bunch of generic all race skills left to train, or I would probably be hitting up some alternate racial ships myself.
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.20 06:14:00 -
[2804 ]
Originally by: Shugo Kazuma I dunno about anyone else, but shouldn't someone who's in charge of game balance play all 4 races? Good thing I still have a bunch of generic all race skills left to train, or I would probably be hitting up some alternate racial ships myself. i would guess that proper knowledge of the job and what makes the different races and ships tick would be a requirement, not so for tuxford he just wings it daily. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Susa Ou
Posted - 2006.10.20 08:33:00 -
[2805 ]
Please, let us do damage?
Securion Wolfheart
CaldariSemper Fidelis Industries
Posted - 2006.10.20 09:32:00 -
[2806 ]
Just when you amarr ppl thought it was bad.... lol.... now all we others need to do is make sure we survive long enough for your cap to dry out. Your ships will be drifting in the belts like relics... lol. And you couldnt deal damage in the first place. OMG im glad im Caldari. (yea, i did invest in amarr ships myself becouse they look good, lol, but i can still jump into my Ferox) Sorry guys, amarr is gone now from the battlefield. Long live amarr! The devs dont have a clue though. Just read Tux post. "Ill add some 150% armour here and remove all shields and maybe add some 500% here and bla bla bla". O M G, he dosnt know what hes doing! LOL. -----====----- "When you come slam bang up against trouble, it never looks half as bad if you face up to it." - John Wayne
BugxEarl
AmarrOmega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.20 10:50:00 -
[2807 ]
Why doesn't the devs make this all much simpler and add; 200% bonus per lvl to self-destruct timer speed. In all of Amarr ships and Minmatar arty boat. In addition, introduction; 99% reduction in CPU/Power Grid requirement for I-Win botton. On Gallente/Caldari ship. Thank you very much.
Jaded
Posted - 2006.10.20 16:14:00 -
[2808 ]
Edited by: Jaded on 20/10/2006 16:15:55 Originally by: Ituralde -> High Fitting requirements on Amarr Weapons (PG namely, and CPU gets eaten in an attempt to fit things to compensate - CPU is rather low on Amarr Vessels) The fitting reqs on lasers aren't too high - should be even higher imo, so others won't use them. The problem is that our ships have way too little PG. Why give us more turret slots than the other races (ok, maybe not 100% correct..), but not the pg/cpu to fit something in them..?
Miri Tirzan
CaldariReikoku Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.20 16:17:00 -
[2809 ]
Amarr were pretty good a little over 18 months ago. Then Amarr ships fell out of favor. From that point on it was nerf the lasers range, nerf the crystals, buff ECM (which amarr ships weakest against), buff EANM2's and add DC. Basically, make Amarr pretty worthless. Now Tux says that the only thing wrong is EANM2s. Well this should be pretty easy to chech... how many amarr ships are found in acutally PvP other than the getton, which has an actual damage mod? And now there is going to be twice as much armor to shoot though and still nothing is getting done. At this rate Amarr are not even going to be good for ratting. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Warnings
Posted - 2006.10.20 17:10:00 -
[2810 ]
For my, there are only TWO solutions : One : Change the damage on the lence with a third damage or modify EM by EXP for exemple or EM/EXP/THERMAL Two : Change resist on all ships, rebalancing for em can make damage on a ship with a tank ... Try radio on a angel NPC for laught ... And, ADD the SECOND damage on the radio lense !!! Why the amarr have only ONE damage on the long range lense ???
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.20 17:41:00 -
[2811 ]
Originally by: Warnings And, ADD the SECOND damage on the radio lense !!! Why the amarr have only ONE damage on the long range lense ??? the gankageddons used Radio with megapulses and sat 60k out with 8 heatsinks and raped ppl. it wasnt balanced. the aproach CCP and especially tuxford has is to totally axe anything that needs balancing. he has no clue whatso ever on how to do small incremental tweaks at all. so with the geddons like that they changed the radio crystal to EM only, they changed the range on megapulses, they implemented the stacking nerf. instead of tweaking away a imbalance they axed everything about the race. why? incompetence is the only reason i can think of. now you know why i have no faith in him leaving the curses main weapon NOS usable on the curse after he has been fiddling with it. tuxford is systematically making the game worse and worse for amarr players. he has himself stated that he has no clue whatsoever what makes amarr ships and weapons work. he is incompetent and would be fired if his superiors actually looked at the state of the game. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Gagarish
Posted - 2006.10.21 02:33:00 -
[2812 ]
Edited by: Gagarish on 21/10/2006 02:33:54 I'm not really sure that Mr.Tuxford get the right information, as long as hi, himself doesnt fly Amarr. The real problem is that ships, that are supposed to be shield tanks, and because of it have a lot CPU and a lot of med slot, dont use them for shield tanking. Instead, at the moment its much more effective to stick ECM modules, and with 60% to 70% to EM damage resist on ALL t1(not to mencion t2) ships. It makes lasers useless, i'd say 3 times less useless than firing with kinetik or exposives ammunition. Are lasers 3 times more powerful? ->>> NO. So the problem with EM and termal damage isn't solved. And its wrong. Why don't make low slots useful for EW? There are traking modifiers, sensor modifiers for low slots. So why not make some? At least, with lowering laser's pg and making base cpu on some ships higher it will work for amarr. p.s. I really feel sorry for CPP when it allowes people who are positioned as "developers" to admit that they aren't capable of understanding the problem.
Shugo Kazuma
Posted - 2006.10.21 03:05:00 -
[2813 ]
Originally by: Gagarish p.s. I really feel sorry for CPP when it allowes people who are positioned as "developers" to admit that they aren't capable of understanding the problem. I still don't understand why one person does game balance. You'd think at least 2 people who be doing balancing, having 2 races each under their supervision. That way they can bounce ideas off each other and not come up with these "small" changes I see stickied to the top of the forum (if these are small changes, I cannot wait to see what the "big" changes are going to look like).
Exiled One
AmarrImperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.10.21 18:22:00 -
[2814 ]
Originally by: Shugo Kazuma Originally by: Gagarish p.s. I really feel sorry for CPP when it allowes people who are positioned as "developers" to admit that they aren't capable of understanding the problem. I still don't understand why one person does game balance. You'd think at least 2 people who be doing balancing, having 2 races each under their supervision. That way they can bounce ideas off each other and not come up with these "small" changes I see stickied to the top of the forum (if these are small changes, I cannot wait to see what the "big" changes are going to look like). QFT. Bump for great justice
starship enginer
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:23:00 -
[2815 ]
could all the recent lag be from this 95page thread? dam lock it already, no dev is gona go throw 95 pages of anything. start a new one if need be with the good points
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2816 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2817 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2818 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2819 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2820 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2821 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2822 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2823 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2824 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2825 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2826 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2827 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2828 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2829 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2830 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2831 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2832 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2833 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2834 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2835 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2836 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2837 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2838 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2839 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:52:00 -
[2840 ]
Bah...bump for the hell of it
starship enginer
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:55:00 -
[2841 ]
Originally by: Juntz Bah...bump for the hell of it hope you, your main, any account that was connected via your ip gets a ban. stop trying to lock this extreamly important thread
Nir
Posted - 2006.10.21 19:57:00 -
[2842 ]
Originally by: starship enginer stop trying to lock this extreamly important thread Its probably for the best, R.I.P. Amarr thread..
Elve Sorrow
AmarrShinra Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.10.21 20:18:00 -
[2843 ]
Let the thread fcking die already. I will save the Amarr race soon enough. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.21 20:32:00 -
[2844 ]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow Let the thread fcking die already. I would agree. Although..temping with 100 so close.
Shin Ra
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2006.10.21 20:35:00 -
[2845 ]
Originally by: Juntz Bah...bump for the hell of it Mods, do not lock this thread because of idiots like this guy. Productive discussion is still going on and we would like it to continue. Thanks
Sovy Kurosei
AmarrTherianthropic Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.21 21:03:00 -
[2846 ]
Originally by: Shin Ra Originally by: Juntz Bah...bump for the hell of it Mods, do not lock this thread because of idiots like this guy. Productive discussion is still going on and we would like it to continue. Thanks Are you going to open up the Burn Eden teamspeak for the downtime on November 1st like you did for some of the other times that Eve Online had extended downtime?___________________
Tasty Burger
Posted - 2006.10.21 22:48:00 -
[2847 ]
Close it before it reaches critical mass!
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 22:49:00 -
[2848 ]
PLEASE KILL ME!!!
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 22:49:00 -
[2849 ]
PLEASE KILL ME!!!
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 22:49:00 -
[2850 ]
PLEASE KILL ME!!!
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 22:49:00 -
[2851 ]
PLEASE KILL ME!!!
Juntz
Posted - 2006.10.21 22:49:00 -
[2852 ]
PLEASE KILL ME!!!
Epsilon 1
Posted - 2006.10.21 22:53:00 -
[2853 ]
Originally by: Juntz PLEASE KILL ME!!! Is your name tuxford? Originally by: Tuxford Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. PROFFESSIONAL Game Balancing.
Nathanial Victor
Posted - 2006.10.21 23:10:00 -
[2854 ]
seriously lock this thread NOW!!!!! its a little know fact, but there was a 'whorum defense system' built into eve in the early days thats all but been forgotten fact is, when any one thread reaches 101 pages....... Jita and Rens will explode. Just think of all those innocent... fluffy pilots. Snuffed out like a candle's flame
Saria Mysdrial
AmarrResearch Associates
Posted - 2006.10.21 23:17:00 -
[2855 ]
IF this thread dies, a thousand more will rise up to take it's place. So what's the point, really?
Viktor Tessela
Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.21 23:32:00 -
[2856 ]
Keep the thread going, just slap a ban on the forum spammers. ;)
Commander Thrawn
Tarnak inc.
Posted - 2006.10.21 23:35:00 -
[2857 ]
Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 21/10/2006 23:35:02
Commander Thrawn
Tarnak inc.
Posted - 2006.10.21 23:35:00 -
[2858 ]
Originally by: Viktor Tessela Keep the thread going, just slap a ban on the forum spammers. ;) indeed Amarr will never lower its arms until a new emporor arises or our ships get some love NERF EAMN, 1 per ship WOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 1st on page 100 i hope
res0nance
Blind Vengeance
Posted - 2006.10.21 23:40:00 -
[2859 ]
I agree that Amarr needs at least some form of buff... tanked ships just pwn Amarr these days.
Tyrrax Thorrk
AmarrUmbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.10.21 23:43:00 -
[2860 ]
One big problem with amarr comes from the cap heavy nature of both their guns and their tanks and insufficient med slots to respond with cap injector. Pretty massive advantage caldari and minmatar have with passive shield tanking and no cap offensive weapons :< Gallente have some of the same problems as Amarr, but they have drones to make up for it, they keep going without cap. Cap cap cap !
starship enginer
Posted - 2006.10.21 23:43:00 -
[2861 ]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn NERF EAMN, 1 per ship WOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ptff, worst idea ever just lower armor base EM to 50% and up exp by 10% and thermal and kin by 5% each. [btw that is a 20% DPS buff to a pure EM DPS on armor no matter how it was hardened before or after]
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.21 23:53:00 -
[2862 ]
Originally by: Nathanial Victor fact is, when any one thread reaches 101 pages....... Jita and Rens will explode. This is actually a pretty good reason to bring it to bring it to 101 pages.
starship enginer
Posted - 2006.10.21 23:54:00 -
[2863 ]
imo to fix amarr and to help the game overall apoc: 5% cap per lvl changed to 10% laser optimal geddon: fine zealot: +1 turret HP absol: ok for now [although id say +1mid, and then +1 low for the astarte and +1 high for the NH] omen: +1 turret maller: drone bay, or cap for guns changed to +5% dmg guns: medium guns need a look at! and so do smalls. fitting wise, the rest is okish frigs: i dont know too much about them since i dont use them armor resistance: should be changed to 50% EM : 20% exp : 35% kin : 35% thermal [hitting with 100 of each dmg type gives a dmg of 260] where currently hitting with 100 of each dmg gives [260] so on average res is same. this will effect only the amarr race, the mini do have high EXP dmg, but their main ammo of EMP will hit harder on EMP level and less on EXP level [will infact up DPS of mini ships using EMP on armor but slightly]. this resistance change means that amarr will get in effect 15-20% more DPS using t2 ammo [very high EM] and about 10-15% more DPS using normal ammo. it would also mean that breaking up plated crusiers isnt really tough for amarr and easy for the rest [stil amarr is worst at it but not as much as now]
Shirazz
Posted - 2006.10.22 01:33:00 -
[2864 ]
wow.... a 100 page boost amarr thread. You would have thought the devs would listen? Have they?
Blind Man
Caldari0utbreak
Posted - 2006.10.22 01:41:00 -
[2865 ]
Edited by: Blind Man on 22/10/2006 01:44:15 almost 100 pages
SavageThrash
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.10.22 01:42:00 -
[2866 ]
Edited by: SavageThrash on 22/10/2006 01:42:18 owned edit dang*snip* Please do not discuss moderation in your signature -Eldo Woah^^^
Gordan Freeman
Caldari0utbreak
Posted - 2006.10.22 01:42:00 -
[2867 ]
100 PAGHES!!! AMMAR IS GEH
SavageThrash
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.10.22 01:43:00 -
[2868 ]
Do our forums only support to 99 page threads? OMG NO!!!!*snip* Please do not discuss moderation in your signature -Eldo Woah^^^
starship enginer
Posted - 2006.10.22 01:46:00 -
[2869 ]
Originally by: SavageThrash Do our forums only support to 99 page threads? OMG NO!!!! donno but in 7 posts we will find out
SavageThrash
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.10.22 01:52:00 -
[2870 ]
Originally by: starship enginer Originally by: SavageThrash Do our forums only support to 99 page threads? OMG NO!!!! donno but in 7 posts we will find out Oh i though we alreayd reached the next page thingy...*snip* Please do not discuss moderation in your signature -Eldo Woah^^^
Crimsonjade
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.22 02:07:00 -
[2871 ]
just switch to something else and let amarr rot. 3 years of training amarr ftl
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.22 02:08:00 -
[2872 ]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 22/10/2006 02:12:40 Originally by: starship enginer imo to fix amarr and to help the game overall apoc: 5% cap per lvl changed to 10% laser optimal geddon: fine zealot: +1 turret HP absol: ok for now [although id say +1mid, and then +1 low for the astarte and +1 high for the NH] omen: +1 turret maller: drone bay, or cap for guns changed to +5% dmg guns: medium guns need a look at! and so do smalls. fitting wise, the rest is okish frigs: i dont know too much about them since i dont use them armor resistance: should be changed to 50% EM : 20% exp : 35% kin : 35% thermal [hitting with 100 of each dmg type gives a dmg of 260] where currently hitting with 100 of each dmg gives [260] so on average res is same. this will effect only the amarr race, the mini do have high EXP dmg, but their main ammo of EMP will hit harder on EMP level and less on EXP level [will infact up DPS of mini ships using EMP on armor but slightly]. this resistance change means that amarr will get in effect 15-20% more DPS using t2 ammo [very high EM] and about 10-15% more DPS using normal ammo. it would also mean that breaking up plated crusiers isnt really tough for amarr and easy for the rest [stil amarr is worst at it but not as much as now] Reason for raising Exp resists? Saying EMP isn't effected cos you lower EM totally ignored the fact minny T2 ammo is Exp/Kin so would be getting nerfed slightly. It's not like a Tempest don't have enough problems with Blasters damage/range. Even after rebalance it doesn't address EANM/damage control tanks, the damage of lasers would still be well below anything else. Omen, I'd say look at the fitting after modifying guns/ships fitting itself, before adding a turret. Making Apoc a sniper.... new idea, i'm not sure about it, its the "Caldari turret racial thing" to start with from a RP point of view. Maybe a new bonus, such as armour HP bonus (affects plates to), but then how would that differenciate from the new tier 3 BS with the resist bonus? Well the second bonus... ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Backdoor Bandit
Minmatar Gay Rights League
Posted - 2006.10.22 02:21:00 -
[2873 ]
Dammit! -------------
Backdoor Bandit
Minmatar Gay Rights League
Posted - 2006.10.22 02:21:00 -
[2874 ]
*bump* /Backdoor Bandit wants to be the first person on the 100th page. -------------
Crimsonjade
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.22 02:35:00 -
[2875 ]
seriously amarr is fine guys i can snipe at 200km , i can wtf own at close range amarr is the most skill dependent ship in the game, if anything i want more cap screw the damage bonuses
Litus Arowar
AmarrObsidian Asylum Pure.
Posted - 2006.10.22 03:08:00 -
[2876 ]
omglol I pwncytomatrix> Try sitting inside a big frickin ball filled up with glue and tubes stuck up your nose and your arse. Then compare RL and Eve.
Blind Man
Caldari0utbreak
Posted - 2006.10.22 04:50:00 -
[2877 ]
Originally by: Crimsonjade seriously amarr is fine guys i can snipe at 200km , i can wtf own at close range amarr is the most skill dependent ship in the game, if anything i want more cap screw the damage bonuses -.- (I'M ON THE 100TH PAGE \o/)
Dano Sarum
Giants in the Playground Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.22 04:58:00 -
[2878 ]
Ohmygosh 100 pages! Lets see if it has been to any affect. ========== -DanoGitP Recruitment
Crusix Bargoth
AmarrThe Forgotten Desciples The Confederation
Posted - 2006.10.22 05:00:00 -
[2879 ]
hehe I switched from Amarr to Gallante. For the better! Hope Amarr gets some love, they have awesome looking ships, tripe for firepower though. Yes, this WAS an inspirational reply.
Imechal Ravpeim
AmarrInternational Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.10.22 05:53:00 -
[2880 ]
I love my Amarr ships... I'm not really specced yet, but they're "good enough" for me... but I'd never say no to a boost I haven't tried level 4 missions or small gang pvp yet, but this is where I hear the amarr are really lacking...
Uglyone
Deep Can Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.22 07:15:00 -
[2881 ]
w00t at 100 pages long this thread stands for Tuxfords incompetence.
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
Posted - 2006.10.22 07:45:00 -
[2882 ]
Originally by: Uglyone w00t at 100 pages long this thread stands for Tuxfords incompetence. 80% of this thread is useless spam and stupid personal attacks such as the one above. What does this thread show? that the forums are full of childish idiots. ----------- Office Linebacker -
Uglyone
Deep Can Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.22 08:10:00 -
[2883 ]
Edited by: Uglyone on 22/10/2006 08:10:15 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Uglyone w00t at 100 pages long this thread stands for Tuxfords incompetence. 80% of this thread is useless spam and stupid personal attacks such as the one above. What does this thread show? that the forums are full of childish idiots. its not a personal attack if it is true then it is just a description. he has admitted to having no idea on amarr and that he doesnt fly amarr. whit that in mind how can he even fix amarr? how could he even get a job there if he refuses to learn atleast a quarter of his job? that my friend is incompetence.
Kay Benton
Posted - 2006.10.22 08:40:00 -
[2884 ]
Originally by: Uglyone Edited by: Uglyone on 22/10/2006 08:10:15 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Uglyone w00t at 100 pages long this thread stands for Tuxfords incompetence. 80% of this thread is useless spam and stupid personal attacks such as the one above. What does this thread show? that the forums are full of childish idiots. its not a personal attack if it is true then it is just a description. he has admitted to having no idea on amarr and that he doesnt fly amarr. whit that in mind how can he even fix amarr? how could he even get a job there if he refuses to learn atleast a quarter of his job? that my friend is incompetence. ^^ Truth is spoken, can't fix something if you have no clue how or why its broken becuase you dont use it and to me this is incomprehensible* considering the position he fills.
Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
Posted - 2006.10.22 09:01:00 -
[2885 ]
Originally by: Kay Benton Originally by: Uglyone Edited by: Uglyone on 22/10/2006 08:10:15 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Uglyone w00t at 100 pages long this thread stands for Tuxfords incompetence. 80% of this thread is useless spam and stupid personal attacks such as the one above. What does this thread show? that the forums are full of childish idiots. its not a personal attack if it is true then it is just a description. he has admitted to having no idea on amarr and that he doesnt fly amarr. whit that in mind how can he even fix amarr? how could he even get a job there if he refuses to learn atleast a quarter of his job? that my friend is incompetence. ^^ Truth is spoken, can't fix something if you have no clue how or why its broken becuase you dont use it and to me this is incomprehensible* considering the position he fills. You guys are a bunch of idiots. First of all, stop the personal attacks against the devs. The moderators should be banning you for it. They are not your personal whipping boys you can abuse when you feel like it. If you don't like what's going on, quit the ******* game. Secondly, the "I don't flt Amarr and know nothing about it, I read it on the forums" was sarcasm. He was laughing at you for being so over the top with your wild acusations. Tuxford has already promised loads of boosts to other areas before Amarr started whinging en mass. What the hell thinks you deserve higher priority? The Deimos has been broken for years. The Muninn has been broken for years. The Sacri is constantly broken. The Nighthawk change was promised before the Amarr moaning. The covert ops CPU was promised before the Amarr moaning. The fact that he has admitted that Amarr have some issues isn't good enough. The thought that he might have an already hectic workload with the aformentioned changes plus hitpoint changes, balancing assault missiles (again promised before the Amarr changes) and god knows what else never entered your head. Hell, he's even said he's lobbying to get the entire Khanid line of ships changed to something similar to Sarmaul's thread, but even that wasn't good enough. You have 2 options: 1. Wait 2. Quit Pick one, and shut up. _______________________________________Sign the petition against jump queues!
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.22 09:02:00 -
[2886 ]
Just stopped by to congratulate on 100 pages. I dont agree with the topics in the thread, but you are very persistant. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
Posted - 2006.10.22 09:06:00 -
[2887 ]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Just stopped by to congratulate on 100 pages. I dont agree with the topics in the thread, but you are very persistant. QFT ,these amar whine more than us minie specialists.
Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
Posted - 2006.10.22 09:11:00 -
[2888 ]
Originally by: Pesadel0 Originally by: Jim McGregor Just stopped by to congratulate on 100 pages. I dont agree with the topics in the thread, but you are very persistant. QFT ,these amar whine more than us minie specialists. Am I the only one looking forward to Sarmaul's upcoming MegaMoan? _______________________________________Sign the petition against jump queues!
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
Posted - 2006.10.22 09:35:00 -
[2889 ]
Originally by: Uglyone Edited by: Uglyone on 22/10/2006 08:10:15 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Uglyone w00t at 100 pages long this thread stands for Tuxfords incompetence. 80% of this thread is useless spam and stupid personal attacks such as the one above. What does this thread show? that the forums are full of childish idiots. its not a personal attack if it is true then it is just a description. he has admitted to having no idea on amarr and that he doesnt fly amarr. whit that in mind how can he even fix amarr? how could he even get a job there if he refuses to learn atleast a quarter of his job? that my friend is incompetence. I guess there really is a sarchasm between the likes of you and Tuxford. Don't fool yourself, if balancing was turned over to half of the muppets on the forums the game would be ruined within a week... ----------- Office Linebacker -
kDaser
CaldariFATAL REVELATIONS
Posted - 2006.10.22 09:39:00 -
[2890 ]
Edited by: kDaser on 22/10/2006 09:39:14 This is from a dev chat on IRC dont know if its been posted yet and I'm not combing through all the crap to find it <DevilsEnigma> <Bek> Question: Are you happy with the current state of Amarrian ships and weapons? Do you feel they're balanced in relationship to the other races in Eve today? <Oveur> Oh, I forgot earlier, system wide belts could be a realization as part of this change <tuxford> I'm typing not ignoring you <Oveur> tuxford is still typing, he's not ignoring you <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. The problem is that there are some problems with Amarr but aren't really fixed by changing Amarr. <tuxford> One problem is damage types and eanm. The problem isn't fixed by boosting laser damage but changing EANM. How has yet to be decided on. <tuxford> Another problem is how hard it is to fit beams but tbh other races have that as well like Minmatar <tuxford> The third is that Amarr is missing something extra special, some flavor. <tuxford> we do indeed talk about these things but in general I think certain people tend to overexaggerate the problem So there is the Devs stance so people know if you didnt already
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.22 09:43:00 -
[2891 ]
Tuxfords compete knowledge about amarr is confined to the forums as by his own admission. does that sound like someone competent at his job? Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Jim McGregor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.22 09:46:00 -
[2892 ]
Originally by: Xendie Tuxfords compete knowledge about amarr is confined to the forums as by his own admission. does that sound like someone competent at his job? Wow, you really need a sarcasm detector mate... :) --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate
Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
Posted - 2006.10.22 09:49:00 -
[2893 ]
Originally by: Xendie Tuxfords compete knowledge about amarr is confined to the forums as by his own admission. does that sound like someone competent at his job? "Now bear with me" Sarcasm "apparantly" Apparently = according to someone else "I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them" What the Amarr idiots keep on saying "I read it on the forums." Where the amarr idiots said it. IS IT REALLY THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND A JOKE? _______________________________________Sign the petition against jump queues!
Yazoul Samaiel
CaldariBlack Nova Corp Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.22 09:53:00 -
[2894 ]
Originally by: Xendie Tuxfords compete knowledge about amarr is confined to the forums as by his own admission. does that sound like someone competent at his job? Are you his Boss at work to judge that ? No , then stfu . Just coz he doenst tailor the game to ppls whines doenst make him incompetent. I agree that this post realy needs to die according to the person who stated the reasons above . MODS plz Lock their oversized whine thread."There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.22 09:58:00 -
[2895 ]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Are you his Boss at work to judge that ? No , then stfu . Just coz he doenst tailor the game to ppls whines doenst make him incompetent. Why dont you let go of his *******? Its been how many months since the most rubbish patch ever (RMR) and he STILL HASNT FIXED Amarr. Oh wait, he gave one of our ship 1 extra power unit! Fact is, the players in this thread has pointed out several serious flaws with todays balance, and now with Kali Amarr isnt getting fixed and Minmatar is getting worse. Quote: I agree that this post realy needs to die according to the person who stated the reasons above . Good, now go away troll. Its people like you who keeps rubbishing this thread. And its people like you who make it a 100 page thread. Get the **** out of our thread. --------------------Tuxford you broke my beloved EVE
Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
Posted - 2006.10.22 10:13:00 -
[2896 ]
And what does it achieve by keeping this thread open and bumped? He has already seen it, you're just desperate to get some little gold bars around it like a small child pining for attention. You don't need 100 pages of crap to say: o EANM armour tanks on T1 ships hurt Amarr o Some of our guns are impossible to fit o We wouldn't mind some more sensor strength as we have so few mids for ECM counters o Khanid ships suck o We are tired of capping out. There - every major point in this thread summerised at the end of it. Wait your turn for a boost. It will come eventually. _______________________________________Sign the petition against jump queues!
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.22 10:36:00 -
[2897 ]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Originally by: Xendie Tuxfords compete knowledge about amarr is confined to the forums as by his own admission. does that sound like someone competent at his job? Are you his Boss at work to judge that ? No , then stfu . Just coz he doenst tailor the game to ppls whines doenst make him incompetent. I agree that this post realy needs to die according to the person who stated the reasons above . MODS plz Lock their oversized whine thread. one can only assume that you are equally incompetent at forumwhoring in a proper manner as tuxford are incompetent at balancing the game. as for being a whine thread, indeed it has been a whine thread of gigantic proportions but most whining has been done by people like you trying to keep the game inbalanced in favour of gallente and caldari specialized characters. we all see through your petty stalkings and tiresome and predictable trollings on these forums yazoul. you need a proper hobby that you are good at since the forums really isnt your cup of tea. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Therin Dracul
Posted - 2006.10.22 10:57:00 -
[2898 ]
In my experience, the only difficulty amarr face is that we are the race most hobbled by a fixed damage type, and possibly a dearth of mid-slots. All other races can vary their damage to at least somewhat. Minnies can use different ammo for autocannons, Caldari just reload appropriate missiles, and Gallente can use different drones. Amarr ships on the other hand are always going to be doing primarily em/thermal. Which is the highest tanked resists on armor-tanks wich is most prevalent. Everyone tanks thermal because its almost 50% of the damage in the game. Even if they dont tank em, its still at 60%. What amar has going for them, is lasers have a higher base damage-mod, and our ships use unified armanent types so damage mods can be put to better use. What the dev's should really do is, run some number to see if there really is a prevalence of omni-tanks. ie: what is the average resist against lasers? Is it really worse than other weapons, is it enough to offset the *slightly* higher dps of lasers? Everything we really do is just anecdotes and speculation without those numbers.
Death Kill
Caldaridirekte
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:09:00 -
[2899 ]
Originally by: Old Geeza Wait your turn for a boost. It will come eventually. Its been over 6 motnhs, and it seams it wont be fixed in Kali either, so we should just wait another 6 months or a year right? n00b.N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Lord Seth
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:14:00 -
[2900 ]
So Still No Gm/Dev post/Reply...... back to the issue at hand. Un-nerf my LazersSignature removed due to incorrect size (400X120px and 24000 bytes). Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions. You can view you signature here - Petwraith
Yazoul Samaiel
CaldariBlack Nova Corp Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:25:00 -
[2901 ]
Originally by: Xendie one can only assume that you are equally incompetent at forumwhoring in a proper manner as tuxford are incompetent at balancing the game. as for being a whine thread, indeed it has been a whine thread of gigantic proportions but most whining has been done by people like you trying to keep the game inbalanced in favour of gallente and caldari specialized characters. we all see through your petty stalkings and tiresome and predictable trollings on these forums yazoul. you need a proper hobby that you are good at since the forums really isnt your cup of tea. -Keep insulting the devs , it will work awesoem for u when u get eventualy banned . -sicne you say its a whine thread then why u arguing in the first place. -Yes Tuxford takes his instructions from me and other caldari and gallanet biased players coz we just tell him to do so or prob coz i pay more than u do , read what ur saying ffs !!! -Stalking !!! Who are u ? Realy i have no idea who the heck r u ! -Plz more personal attacks so u can enjoy a nice long ban some day."There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:33:00 -
[2902 ]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel -Plz more personal attacks Funny part is that you blatantly deserve them. You accuse others of getting personal yet here you are with your rude posting and 'wtf idiot cry babies/whiners' replies. Then whenever someone calls your bull**** you get on the defensive and acting all suprised why people think of you as a retard. --------------------Tuxford you broke my beloved EVE
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:33:00 -
[2903 ]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Originally by: Xendie one can only assume that you are equally incompetent at forumwhoring in a proper manner as tuxford are incompetent at balancing the game. as for being a whine thread, indeed it has been a whine thread of gigantic proportions but most whining has been done by people like you trying to keep the game inbalanced in favour of gallente and caldari specialized characters. we all see through your petty stalkings and tiresome and predictable trollings on these forums yazoul. you need a proper hobby that you are good at since the forums really isnt your cup of tea. -Keep insulting the devs , it will work awesoem for u when u get eventualy banned . -sicne you say its a whine thread then why u arguing in the first place. -Yes Tuxford takes his instructions from me and other caldari and gallanet biased players coz we just tell him to do so or prob coz i pay more than u do , read what ur saying ffs !!! -Stalking !!! Who are u ? Realy i have no idea who the heck r u ! -Plz more personal attacks so u can enjoy a nice long ban some day. its not a personal attack, its a astute observation on your behaviour on these forums. you rarely if ever have anything to back up any claims you spout out. your favourite pasttime on these forums is to stalk welsh wizard and the rest of celest and smacktalk with little to no real content in your posts. you have shown that you are nothing better then a incompetent troll at these forums. we are atleast trying to get people to open their eyes about the lack of skill that tuxford has at doing his job. he has publically let it be known that he knows nothing of how amarr ships and weapons work, he has publically admitted to ever have used a amarr ship. that amarr part is around 25% of the game wich he so conveniently ignored. if you had a job wich i doubt you have you would be fired in a heartbeat if you refused to learn 25% of the job you have to know. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:35:00 -
[2904 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel -Plz more personal attacks Funny part is that you blatantly deserve them. You accuse others of getting personal yet here you are with your rude posting and 'wtf idiot cry babies/whiners' replies. Then whenever someone calls your bull**** you get on the defensive and acting all suprised why people think of you as a retard. his trollings are so very transparent that he isnt worth the trouble. he is trying to aggrevate ppl so they get ****ed at him and then he petitions them for harassment and personal attacks. his forum f00 is extremely poor. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
eBail Jerbal
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:36:00 -
[2905 ]
Edited by: eBail Jerbal on 22/10/2006 11:36:29 The problem is easly fixed by mounting Projectiles on Ammar apocs but seriously we will be going back 2 years ago after the first laser nerf hee hee the apoc isnt even the best miner anymore :)
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:38:00 -
[2906 ]
Originally by: eBail Jerbal The problem is easly fixed by mounting Projectiles on Ammar apocs but seriously we will be going back 2 years ago after the first laser nerf btw congratulations on post #3000 in this thread one solution for remedy with the EAMN2+DCU issue and the advertized idiotic 50% HP boost would be to roll back the pulse nerf, the radio nerf, the crystal nerf and the stacking nerf. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:42:00 -
[2907 ]
Originally by: Xendie we are atleast trying to get people to open their eyes about the lack of skill that tuxford has at doing his job.he has publically let it be known that he knows nothing of how amarr ships and weapons work , he has publically admitted to ever have used a amarr ship. that amarr part is around 25% of the game wich he so conveniently ignored. if you had a job wich i doubt you have you would be fired in a heartbeat if you refused to learn 25% of the job you have to know. Good god man stop being retarded! he was being sarcastic , if left over to some of you guys we'd see balance destroyed in a week (explosive crystals anyone? ) ----------- Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:44:00 -
[2908 ]
Originally by: Xendie Originally by: eBail Jerbal The problem is easly fixed by mounting Projectiles on Ammar apocs but seriously we will be going back 2 years ago after the first laser nerf btw congratulations on post #3000 in this thread one solution for remedy with the EAMN2+DCU issue and the advertized idiotic 50% HP boost would be to roll back the pulse nerf, the radio nerf, the crystal nerf and the stacking nerf. The bolded bit demonstrates exactly why people like yourself are not responsible for balancing this game but rather Tuxford is... ----------- Office Linebacker -
Hellspawn01
AmarrThe Phantom Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:45:00 -
[2909 ]
I know many of you are very angry cuz Tux isnt posting here but plz stop insulting/trolling.Ship lovers click here
Xendie
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:53:00 -
[2910 ]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Xendie Originally by: eBail Jerbal The problem is easly fixed by mounting Projectiles on Ammar apocs but seriously we will be going back 2 years ago after the first laser nerf btw congratulations on post #3000 in this thread one solution for remedy with the EAMN2+DCU issue and the advertized idiotic 50% HP boost would be to roll back the pulse nerf, the radio nerf, the crystal nerf and the stacking nerf. The bolded bit demonstrates exactly why people like yourself are not responsible for balancing this game but rather Tuxford is... i think you fail to see the similarity in tuxfords sweeping changes with no clue to what i said. the game would surely be way more balanced with those nerfs rolled back if the proposed HP boost comes in. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Godar Marak
AmarrReturn Of Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.22 11:56:00 -
[2911 ]
Originally by: Crimsonjade i can wtf own at close range Close range = ca.0-8000m. So I take it you use autocannosn or something to 'wtf own' at close range? --------------------Tuxford you broke my beloved EVE
Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.10.22 12:01:00 -
[2912 ]
Originally by: Xendie its not a personal attack, its a astute observation on your behaviour on these forums. you rarely if ever have anything to back up any claims you spout out. your favourite pasttime on these forums is to stalk welsh wizard and the rest of celest and smacktalk with little to no real content in your posts. you have shown that you are nothing better then a incompetent troll at these forums. we are atleast trying to get people to open their eyes about the lack of skill that tuxford has at doing his job. he has publically let it be known that he knows nothing of how amarr ships and weapons work, he has publically admitted to ever have used a amarr ship. that amarr part is around 25% of the game wich he so conveniently ignored. if you had a job wich i doubt you have you would be fired in a heartbeat if you refused to learn 25% of the job you have to know. Astute observation depends on your point of view, a personal opinion if you would. Hence if it attacks someone, it is indeed a personal attack."if you had a job wich i doubt you have..." That is a clear personal attack. Since you refer to jobs, you should know "time doesn't grow on trees", he has recognized some issues (specifically EANM) so will no doubt get around to them when he has time in his schedule. Just because that schedule doesn't meet with "DO IT NOW COS WE MADE A HUGE THREAD!" doesn't make it more important than anything else in EVE. CCP communicate with playerbase more than other games, so when they say something everyone has an opinion jumps in. Main problem is that communication should either be all or nothing, instead we get little notes which leaves a lot of unanswered questions. Maybe its Amarr players in the office telling him, "Well I don't have a big problem with them", so he takes his professional workmate's opinion over unknown peoples, usually over the top dramatic complaints. Amarr were kings for a time, at least they have had that... Appart from that, "if you got nothing nice to say..... don't say anything at all". ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Crimsonjade
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.22 15:27:00 -
[2913 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Crimsonjade i can wtf own at close range Close range = ca.0-8000m. So I take it you use autocannosn or something to 'wtf own' at close range? t2 drones :P but to me i was talking about BS's and for amarr to get within 20km is a little crazy, only one pulse works well and the damage t2 megapulse do is still pretty decent with lv 5 BS, so close range for an amarr BS to me, and close is going to be a vague word as its an opionin not a specific. close = 12km-19km if ya wanna hug your target fly a thron with blasters
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.22 19:10:00 -
[2914 ]
If I see another request for explosive crystals I am going to scream. Explosive damage is the second most useless damage out there save EM alone. ...And if anyone says 'Kinetic crystal' then they need to be beaten over the head by a beam of light. Except oh wait, beams of light can't beat you over the head BECAUSE LIGHT DOES NOT DO KINETIC DAMAGE. Ok, that amused me at least. To re-iterate, fix: Cap use Fitting Reqs So Amarr fittings are not 50% engineering mods to fit all the crap on their ships - and still have no tank Fear is the mind-killer.
Goumindong
AmarrThe Forsakened Companions Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.10.22 19:17:00 -
[2915 ]
Originally by: Ituralde If I see another request for explosive crystals I am going to scream. Explosive damage is the second most useless damage out there save EM alone. ...And if anyone says 'Kinetic crystal' then they need to be beaten over the head by a beam of light. Except oh wait, beams of light can't beat you over the head BECAUSE LIGHT DOES NOT DO KINETIC DAMAGE. Ok, that amused me at least. To re-iterate, fix: Cap use Fitting Reqs So Amarr fittings are not 50% engineering mods to fit all the crap on their ships - and still have no tank Light has mass...
Ituralde
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.22 19:26:00 -
[2916 ]
Compare the light of mass and the mass of a charge of Iron 425mm in diamater and get back to me mmkay? Fear is the mind-killer.
Tovarishch
CaldariBody Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.10.22 19:26:00 -
[2917 ]
Edited by: Tovarishch on 22/10/2006 19:26:03 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ituralde If I see another request for explosive crystals I am going to scream. Explosive damage is the second most useless damage out there save EM alone. ...And if anyone says 'Kinetic crystal' then they need to be beaten over the head by a beam of light. Except oh wait, beams of light can't beat you over the head BECAUSE LIGHT DOES NOT DO KINETIC DAMAGE. Ok, that amused me at least. To re-iterate, fix: Cap use Fitting Reqs So Amarr fittings are not 50% engineering mods to fit all the crap on their ships - and still have no tank Light has mass... To the above - light has both mass and no mass. You aren't going to win with that argument. Secondly - to all the children who find it reasonable to bump a thread simply to watch the reply counter go up... and to insult the same people who create the game that you continue to play... read this thread.All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.22 20:42:00 -
[2918 ]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 22/10/2006 20:43:10 Originally by: Ituralde Edited by: Ituralde on 22/10/2006 19:33:10 Compare the light of mass and the mass of a charge of Iron 425mm in diamater and get back to me mmkay? [Edit] - Point out where in the post you quoted where I insulted the devs in any way? I simply meant to refute the argument that in any way, shape, or form we (amarr) need to be able to do kinetic or explosive damage. Be high and mighty all you want but tbh I don't see how I am being non-constructive as the cap use in light of the announced HP change is a serious issue. The issue can be solved entirely by making something like Smartbombs becoming a Amarr trait. Like lasers, smartbombs rely on energy, and for some reason, they can do kenetic and explosive damagetypes. As for crystals doing extra damagetypes - Physics gone mad I am afraid.... or e=mc2 allows kenetic crystals... which is not going to happen anyway. This is transfering the problem - to solve the problem - you need new bonus on the amarr ships to actually make them usable. I guess the new target in this thread is 150 pages - then the forums die - Go for it! ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Lord WarATron
AmarrOut Siders Ascendant Frontier
Posted - 2006.10.22 20:45:00 -
[2919 ]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Uglyone w00t at 100 pages long this thread stands for Tuxfords incompetence. 80% of this thread is useless spam and stupid personal attacks such as the one above. What does this thread show? that the forums are full of childish idiots. If 80% of this thread is crap - then that means at least 20 pages worth need to be acted upon! ---Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.10.22 20:58:00 -
[2920 ]
Edited by: madaluap on 22/10/2006 21:03:53 Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Uglyone w00t at 100 pages long this thread stands for Tuxfords incompetence. 80% of this thread is useless spam and stupid personal attacks such as the one above. What does this thread show? that the forums are full of childish idiots. If 80% of this thread is crap - then that means at least 20 pages worth need to be acted upon! Problem is ammar just dont know how to whine. Thats all. You can call yourselves extremely lucky that minmatar is getting a (indirect) howitzer nerf, so you have them on your side. If you need profesional whiners, than there are only 2 races that can bring decent, argumentated and clear whining. Thats gallente/mini offcourse: Linky , Linky All hail gallente whiners o/ On a more serious note: Tux has said that he will be looking into the EAM and laser problems. If you think about it, the small changes are listed in the sticky on the top of ship and modules. I find those changes rather HUGE, so has anyone considered that these big changes might involve ammarboosting. Be it direct or indirect. i have good faith he will adress other races aswell and look @ overal balance. Gallente was the first race to receive a lot of indirect and direct boosts after 3+ years, so lets just enjoy it while it lasts. _________________________________________________
Lazy8s
Posted - 2006.10.22 22:55:00 -
[2921 ]
Originally by: Ituralde If I see another request for explosive crystals I am going to scream. Explosive damage is the second most useless damage out there save EM alone. ...And if anyone says 'Kinetic crystal' then they need to be beaten over the head by a beam of light. Except oh wait, beams of light can't beat you over the head BECAUSE LIGHT DOES NOT DO KINETIC DAMAGE. Ok, that amused me at least. To re-iterate, fix: Cap use Fitting Reqs So Amarr fittings are not 50% engineering mods to fit all the crap on their ships - and still have no tank I know there won't be explosive or kinetic crystals but I just thought I would point out that you can in fact do kinetic damage with light. In optical physics last semester we studied how you can make a sail boat of sorts in space and the kinetic force of light will push it through the solar system. You literally use big sails and the light pushes against them propelling the satellite through space. Also, there are optical tweezers that use light beams to lift and move small particles. It's just bugged the snot out of me every time I see someone say light can't do kinetic damage because it very much does have a real kinetic force.
madaluap
GallenteMercenary Forces
Posted - 2006.10.22 23:01:00 -
[2922 ]
Originally by: Lazy8s Originally by: Ituralde If I see another request for explosive crystals I am going to scream. Explosive damage is the second most useless damage out there save EM alone. ...And if anyone says 'Kinetic crystal' then they need to be beaten over the head by a beam of light. Except oh wait, beams of light can't beat you over the head BECAUSE LIGHT DOES NOT DO KINETIC DAMAGE. Ok, that amused me at least. To re-iterate, fix: Cap use Fitting Reqs So Amarr fittings are not 50% engineering mods to fit all the crap on their ships - and still have no tank I know there won't be explosive or kinetic crystals but I just thought I would point out that you can in fact do kinetic damage with light. In optical physics last semester we studied how you can make a sail boat of sorts in space and the kinetic force of light will push it through the solar system. You literally use big sails and the light pushes against them propelling the satellite through space. Also, there are optical tweezers that use light beams to lift and move small particles. It's just bugged the snot out of me every time I see someone say light can't do kinetic damage because it very much does have a real kinetic force. Sails? thats minmatar technology dude. _________________________________________________
Aramendel
AmarrQueens of the Stone Age Black Reign Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.22 23:18:00 -
[2923 ]
Any "this is not realistic" argumentation is failed from the start really. 1.) It's a game. It is not meant to be realistic - if it would be the EvE "space" would not behave like it would be full of water. "Realistic" behaviour is only a distant 3rd in priority after balance & fun. 2.) Lasers are right now not very realistic. The whole concept of EM damage is flawed. Also, lasers do not suddenly stop working after x kms (high optimal, low falloff), but slowly diminish in strength due to loosing focus slowly with increasing length. Hell, you wouldn't even see the bloddy beams in space under normal conditions. The only thing EVEs laser beams have in common with the "real thing" is the name.
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.10.23 00:09:00 -
[2924 ]
Edited by: Nyxus on 23/10/2006 00:11:07 Originally by: Aramendel Also, lasers do not suddenly stop working after x kms (high optimal, low falloff), but slowly diminish in strength due to loosing focus slowly with increasing length. Hell, you wouldn't even see the bloddy beams in space under normal conditions. I am sorry Aramendel, I can't believe that you would post this complete load of crap. It's obvious to EVERYONE that lasers have high optimal and no falloff. This was proven incontrovertably in Star Wars when any "Light Saber", aka laser, was activated. The beam went up to a specific point (optimal) then STOPPED SUDDENLY (low falloff). OMFG if it had a long falloff and was invisible Luke would have cut holes in the top of the damn Millenium Falcon and killed them all every time he was practicing his leet j3d1 m0v3s. If it was invisible then it would be really hard to have a saber fight with Darth Vader because Luke would have spent 90% of the movie in a bacta tank healing thingie reattaching his arms and legs from cutting them off with an invisible blade in practice. And we all know that isn't the way it happened. Anyway we know that Amarr are evil darkside because blue gamma crystals are so completely craptastic while Aurora crystals are red and let me kill ppl from really far away while shouting "PEW PEW YOUR LACK OF FAITH DISTURBS ME, PEW PEW" while wearing my official black Vader helmet. Nyxus </sarcasm> Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Dristra
Posted - 2006.10.23 00:11:00 -
[2925 ]
Maybe we need a new constructive Amarr tread? more like the ones a few posts up... where a detailed description of what we want can easily be found.
Dahak2150
Posted - 2006.10.23 02:19:00 -
[2926 ]
Poor Malken is probably beating himself over the head for this. ---------- My sig is boring.
Crimsonjade
Forsaken Empire
Posted - 2006.10.23 03:21:00 -
[2927 ]
Originally by: Dahak2150 Poor Malken is probably beating himself over the head for this. it does make him cry at times
General Tso's
Amarr
Posted - 2006.10.23 06:38:00 -
[2928 ]
Originally by: Aramendel Any "this is not realistic" argumentation is failed from the start really. 1.) It's a game. It is not meant to be realistic - if it would be the EvE "space" would not behave like it would be full of water. "Realistic" behaviour is only a distant 3rd in priority after balance & fun. 2.) Lasers are right now not very realistic. The whole concept of EM damage is flawed. Also, lasers do not suddenly stop working after x kms (high optimal, low falloff), but slowly diminish in strength due to loosing focus slowly with increasing length. Hell, you wouldn't even see the bloddy beams in space under normal conditions. The only thing EVEs laser beams have in common with the "real thing" is the name. Well I think they tried their best to reach a balance/medium goal with realism vs fictional fantasy. Aside from explosive crystals and kinetic light, there are other options that could be explored here. EM effects and damages electrical components no? so if EM reaches your hull, shouldn't your systems start offlining/rebooting? :) like targetting, navigation, weapons, etc... Why not give other attributes to lasers besides damage. -------- They say the universe is perfect If you try to change it, you'll only ruin it If you try to hold onto it, it will only slip away
Ruah Piskonit
AmarrPIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.23 07:57:00 -
[2929 ]
Edited by: Ruah Piskonit on 23/10/2006 07:57:03 Originally by: Aramendel Well I think they tried their best to reach a balance/medium goal with realism vs fictional fantasy. Aside from explosive crystals and kinetic light, there are other options that could be explored here. EM effects and damages electrical components no? so if EM reaches your hull, shouldn't your systems start offlining/rebooting? :) like targetting, navigation, weapons, etc... Why not give other attributes to lasers besides damage. This would be a little too powerful, even if I do like the idea In all honesty though. Could we please stop insulting Tux? All people are doing is projecting their own fears onto Kali. Yes, I am very worried like the rest of you, yes, I do feel we have a problem. But our major concerns are not going to be addressed if people keep this up. I also feel that buffing is better then nurfing. . . and people pull out the nerf-bat a little too quickly. Let us enjoy a good buff instead of fearing a terrible nerf. now, go train Amarr and make it work!!
Zhuge Liang
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
Posted - 2006.10.23 08:01:00 -
[2930 ]
Locked at thread authors request.
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