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Spocktral 'Groffer' McClonegoo
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.05.14 07:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Link: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=162335&find=unread
I want to raise a red flag here because I think this CCP Z guy wants to copy concepts from WoW into EVE: Legion and completely revamp the skill system to be more Battlefield/CoD like. Made two threads criticizing his ideas so far.
Spectral-¦s Rant #1: Why Common/Uncommon/Rare is not good enough https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158804#post2158804
Spectral-¦s Rant #2: Accessible skill tree without dumbing it down https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158807#post2158807 |
Spocktral 'Groffer' McClonegoo
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.05.14 08:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved for future updates. |
Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
275
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Posted - 2014.05.14 16:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
This guy legitimately scares the hell out of me.
This is what happens when you let marketing steer the entire development process for a game.
The last time a game was ruined like this was Diablo III at launch. |
Vayn Dravix
The Empire Strikes Back
4
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Posted - 2014.05.15 05:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Still hate the very existing thought of this idea with a passion. |
Spocktral 'Groffer' McClonegoo
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.05.15 06:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lets hope MWO will release a decent faction warfare mode soon. Meanwhile, I'll be playing EVE and Marvel Heroes.
RIP Dust 514/Legion |
Tavin Aikisen
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
265
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Posted - 2014.05.15 15:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Agreed.
I was very disturbed to hear terms like "loot" and "epic gear" and all that other **** in this sandbox world. Emotional connection to my drop suit? No. My dropsuit is a tool just like my ship. The emotional content is in me (the character).
The DUST skill system was on the right track. It was very reminiscent of EVE and was a means to specialise, just like EVE. Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home. -Cold Wind |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
516
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Posted - 2014.05.15 15:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
All I will say is this: legion is still in early phases of development (though I think its past just a prototype and is pretty much set to be finished quickly once green lite) There is time to get feed back. Also, what CCP Z is saying, and what actually comes out could be translated differently. In other words, what he has in his head and what comes out, might be WAY different then what he is saying. As sometimes you have to see and try something to understand. It can go "oh! now I get it, this is bad ass" or "oh.. no, no, no, this sucks WTF ccp? WTF!?!?!" My only hope, is that they give TONS of time for testing and feedback, and learned from the dust roll out. So it the skill system is ****, it can be fixed. |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
516
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Posted - 2014.05.15 15:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
And 'loot' being in the pve experience makes since. The idea that you go to a world after a fight and salvage whats left is a great idea, while fighting drones that are trying to get the tech too. They could even tie this into eve, that we are sending the drones because we want the technology. Or after a huge fleet fight they are gathering things that fell off our ships. Its an interesting concept. |
Spocktral 'Groffer' McClonegoo
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
2
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Posted - 2014.05.16 07:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Loot or salvaged items make sense, sure. I-¦m just against it being called 'epic loot' and being purple.
As for the skill system, CCP Z posted his ideas and is only answering the questions that 'fit into' his idea. He is showing to be a pretty narcissististic dude due to this.
Everything he has presented seems to be set in stone like you mention DaReaper, so why is he asking for community feedback?
Inb4 "your feedback matters" EVE: Legion newsletter from CCP, except it don-¦t. |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
460
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Posted - 2014.05.16 10:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Z seems to not only be against everything that makes Eve good, but seems to want to discard the few elements of Dust that were universally praised. He also seems to have an autocratic, arrogant attitude and is completely dismissive of people who disagree with him.
Seriously how is this guy in creative control of this project? What the **** are CCP thinking? Its literally doubling down on the worst mistakes they have made. |
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NeVrain
Sleeping Giant Services Inc.
6
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Posted - 2014.05.16 16:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cross-posting from that Legion thread on progression. The is no reason that CCP Z's awful gamey system couldn't be made optional, but so far he refuses to comment on the issue.
After thinking about it for a couple of weeks, i suppose what bothers me the most is the blatant disregard for New Eden, hence the cross-posting:
Immersion-breaking progression mechanics remove a lot of credibility from the game.
I imagine our immortal clone mercs as pretty tough cookies: independent, capable, self-directed make-sh!t-happen operators. Working against this are several mechanics in the proposed progression scheme for Legion that significantly break immersion.
1) Role-based progression. What agency in New Eden is constraining the choices of these independent mercenary contractors? Why do they comply? What is preventing my merc from learning on his own? What leverage does this 'educational authority' have on mercs? Characters in the new progression system will feel more like schoolboys/girls than rugged individualists who make their own way.
2) Respecs. Hard universe. Consequences. Living and dying by your own choices. New Eden. Under CCP Z's system, not really - personal responsibility/pride definitely take a backseat to protecting peeps from their own mistakes. The sense of making big personal decisions when spending hard-earned sp on your progression will be gone.
In the new system, the game becomes more obvious, the universe fades into an irrelevant background, at least where personal choice is concerned.
3) BPO suits. Where do the physical resources come from to build these complex, powerful pieces of battlefield equipment? Whatever my weapon costs in terms of materials, surely my suit requires more? In New Eden, everything is manufactured by players for players. What agency is providing my mercenary clone with an unlimited supply of expensive military-grade equipment?
In most games, the very gamey progression system that is being proposed wouldn't really be an issue, since the entire backstory of most games is ad-hoc and arbitrary, often serving only to motivate game mechanics.
But when we import that kind of gamey thinking to New Eden it generates a cognitive and aesthetic dissonance. In a gritty 'real' virtual universe, a gamey progression system stand out like a sore thumb.
If the developer doesn't respect the IP, why should we expect new players to? What will 'New Eden' be for them? Some far paler and anemic thing than it is for us, methinks.
New Eden is real - or is it, CCP Z? |
Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
279
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Posted - 2014.05.17 05:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lallante wrote:CCP Z seems to not only be against everything that makes Eve good, but seems to want to discard the few elements of Dust that were universally praised. He also seems to have an autocratic, arrogant attitude and is completely dismissive of people who disagree with him.
Seriously how is this guy in creative control of this project? What the **** are CCP thinking? Its literally doubling down on the worst mistakes they have made.
Kinda reminds me of the monoclegate scandal.
We must move in this greedy, generic direction, for the good of all! We cannot survive with our current playerbase! Dumb down the game! Add miniskirts! Find a new target audience that doesn't already hate us! They must be out there! |
Saul Elsyn
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
134
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Posted - 2014.05.20 20:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
A pity the Dust 514 people don't have monuments they can blow up to express their displeasure. I guess we'll have to do it for them in EVE if this really turns out to be terrible.
Why can't they just take the basic EVE skill system and run with it... Maybe a premium account system for the F2P setup so that you could passively gain SP like in EVE.
Anyone else look at their skill list and go... Why are Laser Rifles and Scrambler Rifles separate skills? Shouldn't they just be Energy Weapons? Or their damage types being replaced by pure bonus vs. shields or armor? I don't understand why they would deviate so much from elements that would work in a FPS environment. It's like their design team is trying to escape New Eden or something. |
Spocktral 'Groffer' McClonegoo
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
4
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Posted - 2014.05.21 06:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
Saul Elsyn wrote:A pity the Dust 514 people don't have monuments they can blow up to express their displeasure. I guess we'll have to do it for them in EVE if this really turns out to be terrible.
Why can't they just take the basic EVE skill system and run with it... Maybe a premium account system for the F2P setup so that you could passively gain SP like in EVE.
Anyone else look at their skill list and go... Why are Laser Rifles and Scrambler Rifles separate skills? Shouldn't they just be Energy Weapons? Or their damage types being replaced by pure bonus vs. shields or armor? I don't understand why they would deviate so much from elements that would work in a FPS environment. It's like their design team is trying to escape New Eden or something.
If there was only one skill that unlock serveral weapons, CCP would not make as much money on boosters compared to the current system. Simply because they are so slow at adding new content.
Yes, CCP Shanghai dont want to capture the New Eden soul in their game it seems. EA/Blizzard/Activisions games are contagious (not in a good way).
One practical thought: Why is Hilmar on stage at Fanfest 2014 preaching about "one character for all CCP games", when this sh*tty company cant even re-use their concepts from one game to another?
My tip to everyone here: Do not drink CCPs kool-aid. |
Zak 'Rain' Kain
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.05.27 11:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
NeVrain wrote:3) BPO suits. Where do the physical resources come from to build these complex, powerful pieces of battlefield equipment? Whatever my weapon costs in terms of materials, surely my suit requires more? In New Eden, everything is manufactured by players for players. What agency is providing my mercenary clone with an unlimited supply of expensive military-grade equipment?
I have one thing to add on this matter.
When you look at the conceivable cost difference between EVE and DUST, there is a huge discrepancy; how do the Devs allow this to be one universe when a Dropsuit, for a single soldier, must realistically cost a millionth of what even a Frigate costs?
Say a Rifter is an F-35 with a unit cost of $150,000,000. If a single foot soldier's gear was just 1% of that, it's still $1.5 million. HUGELY over the bar for what the gear would cost.
I imagine that, instead of purchasing single drop suits, Capsuleers enter into "Gear Contracts" for a large amount of ISK that read "Full access to this gear, always.". So, if your dropsuit gets blown up, it gets replaced. It's the only way I can make fiscal sense of the gear cost, especially compared to Capsuleer ships that cost billions.
In game terms, Players could manufacture gear contracts, i.e. each "Dropsuit" that is made is a single unit, but in Lore terms is a renewed contract for unlimited Dropsuits. Thus, lore-wise, the player making the Dropsuit is actually manufacturing millions of them, as opposed to one.
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Renier Gaden
Immortal Guides
186
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Posted - 2014.05.27 16:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
The following gives me some hope that some of our concerns were simply due to CCP Z not explaining his concept very well. Our concerns were articulated in his thread very well, and he is reportedly considering our feedback and trying to modify his proposed system accordingly, so hopefully what he comes back with will be much more to our liking.
CCP Z wrote:Fox Gade wrote: Are you simply collapsing 5 level skills into single nodes? Are you taking a lot of small rewarding steps and replacing them with a few huge daunting steps? Am I going to have to grind for two weeks to get 25% PG from the Engineering node when I only need 5% more PG to make my fit work? We are basically creating 5 nodes level 1 instead of 1 node with 5 levels. It helps people understand and allow our trees to be more linear Source
The one thing I think we should be giving CCP Z credit for was actually presenting his proposed system to us when it was barely past the napkin sketch faze, and there is plenty of time to change it. This is a big improvement over 2013 when Devs would not present their ideas to us until they were mostly programmed and in testing, so that it was too late to change anything in any major way. |
Renier Gaden
Immortal Guides
186
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Posted - 2014.05.27 16:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Spocktral 'Groffer' McClonegoo wrote:Loot or salvaged items make sense, sure. I-¦m just against it being called 'epic loot' and being purple.
As for the skill system, CCP Z posted his ideas and is only answering the questions that 'fit into' his idea. He is showing to be a pretty narcissististic dude due to this.
Everything he has presented seems to be set in stone like you mention DaReaper, so why is he asking for community feedback?
Inb4 "your feedback matters" EVE: Legion newsletter from CCP, except it don-¦t. According to CPM1 members, CCP ZGÇÖs progression system is quite a bit better than what he originally presented to them. They found him willing to respond flexibly to feedback.
I think that CCP Z is not a natural communicator. In his progression thread I think he was trying to explain and answer questions about his proposed system. I think the system was too complicated for him to make changes on the fly, so he did not seem responsive to stuff that was not directly related to how his system worked.
However, if I read him right, he is the type that has to read through suggestions and digest the contents, then do some deep thinking to synthesize the results into a new proposal. When he comes back with his counter proposal, we will see if I read him right. My hope is that we will be much happier with his next proposal.
As for WOW, there are aspects of that game that work. It is the constant dumbing down of WOW that we want to avoid in Legion. The lack of intellectual challenge is why I stopped playing WOW and switched to EVE long ago. So I totally understand any WOW reference rasing red flags, but we should not dismiss everything from WOW out of hand. We can still pick and choose some of the stuff that works from WOW without dumbing down our game. |
Renier Gaden
Immortal Guides
186
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Posted - 2014.05.27 16:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Saul Elsyn wrote:A pity the Dust 514 people don't have monuments they can blow up to express their displeasure. I took your suggestion and ran with it. |
Spocktral 'Groffer' McClonegoo
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
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Posted - 2014.05.30 08:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zak 'Rain' Kain wrote: When you look at the conceivable cost difference between EVE and DUST, there is a huge discrepancy; how do the Devs allow this to be one universe when a Dropsuit, for a single soldier, must realistically cost a millionth of what even a Frigate costs?
Say a Rifter is an F-35 with a unit cost of $150,000,000. If a single foot soldier's gear was just 1% of that, it's still $1.5 million. HUGELY over the bar for what the gear would cost.
I imagine that, instead of purchasing single drop suits, Capsuleers enter into "Gear Contracts" for a large amount of ISK that read "Full access to this gear, always.". So, if your dropsuit gets blown up, it gets replaced. It's the only way I can make fiscal sense of the gear cost, especially compared to Capsuleer ships that cost billions.
In game terms, Players could manufacture gear contracts, i.e. each "Dropsuit" that is made is a single unit, but in Lore terms is a renewed contract for unlimited Dropsuits. Thus, lore-wise, the player making the Dropsuit is actually manufacturing millions of them, as opposed to one.
I definately like this description of where mercs/legionnares get their stuff from more than a BPO, a BPO should not exist in a game without industry at all. |
SpaceSaft
Sub Par. The East India Co.
82
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Posted - 2014.06.05 08:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Quote: ...we are not talking to the same target audience (hardcore MMO players vs Online FPS Players).
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=162335&find=unread
Erm... wrong.
How stuck in your tracks do you have to be to have misunderstood the basic concept of Dust and Eve?
It's one universe, it's one target audience. Some prefer one side more than others, but that's it. If he thinks he has to split the community like this, that is going to do massive damage to any Dust <-> Eve Relationship.
People who want to play shooters can already do so and CCP will not be able to be a competitor to DICE or whoever makes COD these days. Hope restored. |
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Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
472
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Posted - 2014.06.06 15:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
I can't clearly express myself because I'm terrible with words, but I don't like Z's vision for DUST (Legion?) at all. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=047203f1-4124-42a1-b36f-39ca8ae5d6e2&action=buddy
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Damios
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.06.08 11:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
I do, but that is because i try to look beyond the point of just a new skill system and a fixed suit. See in Eve we have our character creation and the different clothes/skills/ships we fly to make us all look unique. In Dust/Legion this does not exist yet. However by having a fixed suit, we can customize it to our taste. First with just colors, paterns and logo's, but maybe further down the line it could be like changing parts of our suits like different style helmets, torso's, legs/boots, etc. To create an even more unique character. Thus beeing able to buy thousends of suits, would make it impossible to have such a customization on such a personal level. It would be like buying a thousend ravens and making each one unique just to loose it in 5 seconds, which is the average lifespan of a dust clone, more if you good at the game, but the point is made. Not to mention that Dust/Legion is partially based on microtransactions, beeing able to customize suits gives them the option to create things that make us more unique, just like our clothing/tattoo's/gear.
So no i don't think CCP ZGÇÖs system is a bad thing, as a matter of fact it opens up more oppertunities.
The dumbing down of the skill system however i don't agree with, but that's because i like it to be even more complex like in EVE |
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