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Vadeim Rizen
TYR. Exodus.
68
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 21:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Quick and short of it: Make it so gates dont hit frigs as hard as they do cruisers. Something like HML sized so frigs can survive just a bit longer. It's quite stupid if a frig accidentally gcc's during a fight and gets insta-blapped by perfect tracking guns. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
395
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 23:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Just get rid of gate guns completely. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
3396
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Posted - 2014.05.15 23:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
This is intentional to keep tacklers away from gates so low-sec is a bit more accessible. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1347
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 01:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:This is intentional to keep tacklers away from gates so low-sec is a bit more accessible. That's actually a pretty good point. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2014.05.16 01:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Low sec really should feel more accessible. Maybe buff gate guns more so more people go. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2670
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 01:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:This is intentional to keep tacklers away from gates so low-sec is a bit more accessible.
Too bad it doesn't work. At all. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
843
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Posted - 2014.05.16 02:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Just get rid of gate guns completely. Or we amp them up on hisec lowsec gates and get rid of them further in This way if someone wants to camp they need effort for the reward and suddenly people start poking their nose in
A guaranteed or nearly so punishment deters action A random punishment does not, even if there is a causative link between the action and the punishment Thus telling people lowsec is safe, come play Oh wait its not safe there, but only then and because of a 5 second timing bit Will get people
I mean why do you sit on hilow gates waiting for people? |
Linkxsc162534
Traps 'R' Us Advanced Amateurs
77
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Posted - 2014.05.16 02:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:
I mean why do you sit on hilow gates waiting for people?
Because "LEET" PVPers love getting kills on solo ritfers and caracals from some nub, or even jsut a regular carebear wanting to try out lowsec.
Honestly, buffing the hilow guns, and then weakening them/removing them the farther you get into low would actually be pretty nice. It would at least give players a minor thought that there isn't a 20man camp sitting on the gate waiting, cause the guns right now are basically worthless.
Few players get into lowsec, and fly around for a bit without getting mercced the second they jump in. The more comfortable they might get with the idea. Then more people go into low. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
351
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 04:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
no |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2671
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 12:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Linkxsc162534 wrote: Few players get into lowsec, and fly around for a bit without getting mercced the second they jump in. The more comfortable they might get with the idea. Then more people go into low.
Where are these people entering into lowsec? Is there a gate for the unfortunate that I haven't heard of? Every entry into low is not camped; not by a long shot. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
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Dave Stark
5641
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Posted - 2014.05.16 12:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:This is intentional to keep tacklers away from gates so low-sec is a bit more accessible.
the barghest laughs at this idea. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
395
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 13:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:Low sec really should feel more accessible. Maybe buff gate guns more so more people go.
Low sec is already incredibly accessible. It is your own feeling that is keeping you out. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Vadeim Rizen
TYR. Exodus.
68
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 14:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:This is intentional to keep tacklers away from gates so low-sec is a bit more accessible.
You mean, it's intentional to make sure what gate camps there are use insta locking lokis with guardian support.
It's a bit dumb to have only 1 ship class not able to fight on a gate. Cruisers, BC, BS dont give a **** about gate guns. I'm not a frig pilot either so I only bring this up as it's kind of a head scratcher and seems pretty pointless to not allow frigs to fight on gate unless the non-flashy engages first. I'm not saying a frig should be able to perma-tank guns, but it should be just like any other ship where the engagement should be very limited under guns, and after 30 seconds or so gtfo if need be. It's kinda stupid that literally the ONLY ship class that can't do this is frigs, because gate guns have perfect tracking. |
Bronson Hughes
The KAOS Holdings Group
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 14:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
One word: Interceptors. A single ship being able to tackle anything that jumps through with it's high scan resolution would completely change the dynamic of losec. To keep 'ceptors from speed tanking "Gate Missiles" while still impacting heavier ships, you'd need to give them crazy stats: think precision light missiles crossed with the damage of a torpedo. Of course, at that point they'd essentially function like guns, so why bother?
I speak from experience when I say that you cannot speed tank gate guns.
Not.
At.
All.
Working as intended. |
Bronson Hughes
The KAOS Holdings Group
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 14:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vadeim Rizen wrote:Abrazzar wrote:This is intentional to keep tacklers away from gates so low-sec is a bit more accessible. You mean, it's intentional to make sure what gate camps there are use insta locking lokis with guardian support.
Yes. It's called teamwork, and that's what should be required to achieve fast lock times on a losec gate while under gate gun fire. |
Vadeim Rizen
TYR. Exodus.
68
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 15:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Vadeim Rizen wrote:Abrazzar wrote:This is intentional to keep tacklers away from gates so low-sec is a bit more accessible. You mean, it's intentional to make sure what gate camps there are use insta locking lokis with guardian support. Yes. It's called teamwork, and that's what should be required to achieve fast lock times on a losec gate while under gate gun fire.
It's not called teamwork, it's called risk-averse. Besides I'd really don't think you would see a change in the way gate campers do things. Frigs still wouldn't be able to hold up over time. destroyers can insta-blap interceptors without remote-sebos and have enough hp to just warp off afterwards, but there aren't dessie gate camps at the high sec gates are there?
I'm just saying it's dumb to have 1 and only 1 type of ship class that can't fight on gate in low-sec unless everyone you're fighting is -5 (which doesnt happen in fw space) |
Kaea Astridsson
Yggdrasil Woodchoppers Noir. Mercenary Group
38
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 15:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
If you wanna tackle stuff on gate with frigs, there is always Null.
Not that I think nerfing the sentry guns would scare away more people than there already is in low - if you're moving something big my guess is you either got it scouted or shittons of friends next door.
Haven't tried running missions out in low-sec but I can imagine it involves getting the mission boat back to station due to overexcited combat probes. |
Bronson Hughes
The KAOS Holdings Group
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 15:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vadeim Rizen wrote:It's not called teamwork, it's called risk-averse. Besides I'd really don't think you would see a change in the way gate campers do things. Frigs still wouldn't be able to hold up over time. destroyers can insta-blap interceptors without remote-sebos and have enough hp to just warp off afterwards, but there aren't dessie gate camps at the high sec gates are there?
I'm just saying it's dumb to have 1 and only 1 type of ship class that can't fight on gate in low-sec unless everyone you're fighting is -5 (which doesnt happen in fw space)
Teamwork does reduce risk, yes. The two are not mutually exclusive.
You don't see dessies camping to kill 'ceptors because anything other than 'ceptors will wipe the floor with them. Dessie support in a gang to kill 'ceptors? Sure. But, again, it comes back to teamwork.
Short version: if you want to camp a losec gate really well with fast locks, you should need a team of people to do it. Letting 'ceptors fight aggressed on gates for any length of time breaks that balance.
Think of it this way: you lose frigates on gates in losec, but you gain capital ships. |
Linkxsc162534
Traps 'R' Us Advanced Amateurs
78
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 15:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:
Where are these people entering into lowsec? Is there a gate for the unfortunate that I haven't heard of? Every entry into low is not camped; not by a long shot.
Of probably 50 jumps into lowsec, without a scout, on hilow connections, I've probably jumped into at least 20 camps on gate. I did lose a merlin once on this toon, and an assortment of frigate/dessys on an alt I made solely for running around and trying to learn PVP. Thing is, myself in that noobish state is what you can assume most carebears who are trying out lowsec are going ot be like. Cannon Fodder I especially liked the camp that people were trying to run back when tuskers were hosting that frigate PVP event. "HUR DUR, We'll kill all the carebears comign out to try and lrn2pvp in this event."
Ofcourse that goes out the window if your in a corp and you have someone who can scout you into low because only once in my travels have I found a camp on a low-low gate, that myself or one of my alts wasn't part of. |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
139
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 15:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:One word: Interceptors. A single ship being able to tackle anything that jumps through with it's high scan resolution would completely change the dynamic of losec. To keep 'ceptors from speed tanking "Gate Missiles" while still impacting heavier ships, you'd need to give them crazy stats: think precision light missiles crossed with the damage of a torpedo. Of course, at that point they'd essentially function like guns, so why bother?
I speak from experience when I say that you cannot speed tank gate guns.
Not.
At.
All.
Working as intended. QFT. Its almost impossible to do in a way that couldn't be abused, there'd be linked 100mn X-Instinct T3s everywhere stomping **** into the ground. Travelling at the speed of love. |
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2674
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 15:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vadeim Rizen wrote:
I'm just saying it's dumb to have 1 and only 1 type of ship class that can't fight on gate in low-sec unless everyone you're fighting is -5 (which doesnt happen in fw space)
You're flying the wrong frigates and you need to make some friends.
We have absolutely no problem fighting neutrals on gates in AFs with a couple T1 logi frigs backing us. Sentries simply don't do so much damage that certain frigs can't overcome it.
If you want to attack neutrals on gates, you need to adjust your tactics, exactly as the campers have. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Vadeim Rizen
TYR. Exodus.
68
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 16:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
'More logi' is boring and bringing 2 logi frigs to a 5-6 man gang just to be able to fight on gate is boring. With the current way flagging is set up where you can "tag" a player, warp off and come back, all i'm asking is for a little bit more time... perhaps enough time to tag 4-5 ships before warping off and coming back.
This thread is beginning to just depress me. I bring up something where frigs have become the most popular ship in eve, that would give frigs the same treatment on gates as any other ship, and all anyone is posting is 'but the gate campers' and 'bring more logi'.... it's a pretty sad state that eve is in to be honest.
Everything I've heard so far only backs up my point that this would NOT change gate camping, as gate campers sit there in shiny ships because they are shiney and wont take a fight that's not a gank. Could they sit there in assault frigs and gate camp? Yes, but they don't because they aren't 'sexy' enough. I DONT CARE ABOUT GATE CAMPERS, i'm talking about the rest of the low-sec population who actually enjoys PVP. As it is, in a non-fw alliance with no war-targets, the only things interceptors in a gang WITHOUT LOGI can do on gate is get a ninja point and immediately warp. Where as any other ship it doesnt mattter. Which if fighting in a small gang, can leave you with 2-3 guys on gate trying to fight simply because you're fighting a gang that's not -5.
The reason i brought up missiles instead of guns is NOT so that inties can speed tank missiles. The missiles would hit 100% of the time just like other missiles, but would do less dps simply due to sig radius. And it presents a BALANCED threat/punishment for aggroing within gate gun range. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1357
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 16:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:Low sec really should feel more accessible. Maybe buff gate guns more so more people go. It's easy to get into lowsec, but hard to go anywhere but the station. If you want more people in lowsec, offer security somewhere where they can farm some sort of resource.
I bet there would be more people in lowsec if customs offices had turrets. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Linkxsc162534
Traps 'R' Us Advanced Amateurs
79
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 17:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I bet there would be more people in lowsec if customs offices had turrets.
Now theres a worthwhile change. (Perhaps g8ve pocos slots just like a ship so you could fit them out with guns or maybe even ewar to defend itself or even players accessing it)
Back on topic though To the OP Imo i dont mind frigs being able to speedtank gate weaponry. But there needs to be a point at which the guns are actually a threat to them. Primarily in my thoughts. How about you nerf the gun tracking a bit. But put it in a manner so if your going gcc and you get scrammed and webbed the guns will probably get you. This would accomplish the same thing as the missiles however with less server load. Also noobs can have a slight bit of solace in the fact that they can work with the gate guns to fight off players |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1357
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 17:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
I think the damage threat should be more balanced than it is. Not balanced completely, mind you. Frigates should die faster than cruisers, and so on. But frigates shouldn't just be instantly killed at the gate. And battleships should take more damage.
I had the idea a while back to make the 8 gate guns into 4 different types of turret: 1.) Two small turrets with fast tracking that can hit anything, but deals low enough damage that a well-tanked frigate can permatank it. 2.) Two medium turrets that can easily hit cruisers but frigates can evade it if they keep up a good angular velocity to both--though it's still a high risk to them and if it does hit them straight on, they won't survive long without logi no matter how well they are tanked. These two turrets alone would hit cruisers similarly--a well-tanked cruiser could permatank them. 3.) Two large turrets that cruisers can evade if they keep up high angular velocity but will hit battleships pretty hard. Only very expensive tanky battleship fits can permatank it without logi support. 4.) Two XL turrets that hit capital ships easily and battleships have to work to evade them. They have much higher DPS than current gate guns and no battleship wants to be hit by these.
The guns would have a preference for targets they can hit well but will also try to focus multiple turrets of multiple sizes on one target when it presents itself. They will split up some also just to keep the logi guessing.
So this way, a ship that is focusing its movement on evading the guns will not be getting hit too hard, but that makes it difficult for said ship to be using short-range weapons and modules. And any ship just sitting still is going to die pretty quickly. Aside from offering more gate defense, it gives more power to the player in choosing to protect themselves from the guns vs attacking players full-force.
Linkxsc162534 wrote:But put it in a manner so if your going gcc and you get scrammed and webbed the guns will probably get you. In my system, if a solo player ganks on a gate and the victim retaliates by webbing the ganker, that ganker may be in for a world of hurt. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Vadeim Rizen
TYR. Exodus.
69
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 17:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Linkxsc162534 wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I bet there would be more people in lowsec if customs offices had turrets.
Now theres a worthwhile change. (Perhaps g8ve pocos slots just like a ship so you could fit them out with guns or maybe even ewar to defend itself or even players accessing it) Back on topic though To the OP Imo i dont mind frigs being able to speedtank gate weaponry. But there needs to be a point at which the guns are actually a threat to them. Primarily in my thoughts. How about you nerf the gun tracking a bit. But put it in a manner so if your going gcc and you get scrammed and webbed the guns will probably get you. This would accomplish the same thing as the missiles however with less server load. Also noobs can have a slight bit of solace in the fact that they can work with the gate guns to fight off players
being able to speed tank them would be a bad thing. the point is to hit them not as hard, not not at all. Think of it as a Tengu shooting HML's. You're still going to hit cruisers/bc's for ~550 dps, but frigs ~ 180 dps. so it essentially takes just as long to kill a frig as it does a cruiser/bc. That's all i'm going for here is something where the time it takes the gates to kill a criminal is roughly the same. |
Linkxsc162534
Traps 'R' Us Advanced Amateurs
79
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 17:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Quote:
being able to speed tank them would be a bad thing. the point is to hit them not as hard, not not at all. Think of it as a Tengu shooting HML's. You're still going to hit cruisers/bc's for ~550 dps, but frigs ~ 180 dps. so it essentially takes just as long to kill a frig as it does a cruiser/bc. That's all i'm going for here is something where the time it takes the gates to kill a criminal is roughly the same.
And what happens if i use a target painter on your frig? Will you take more damage from these missiles then? What about if i web you? |
Vadeim Rizen
TYR. Exodus.
69
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 17:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Linkxsc162534 wrote:Quote:
being able to speed tank them would be a bad thing. the point is to hit them not as hard, not not at all. Think of it as a Tengu shooting HML's. You're still going to hit cruisers/bc's for ~550 dps, but frigs ~ 180 dps. so it essentially takes just as long to kill a frig as it does a cruiser/bc. That's all i'm going for here is something where the time it takes the gates to kill a criminal is roughly the same.
And what happens if i use a target painter on your frig? Will you take more damage from these missiles then? What about if i web you?
Of course, and of course. :) Atleast the player is doing something to fight back at that point. Webs/paints do increase missile dps. |
Linkxsc162534
Traps 'R' Us Advanced Amateurs
79
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 17:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
Vadeim Rizen wrote:linkxsc162534 wrote:
And what happens if i use a target painter on your frig? Will you take more damage from these missiles then? What about if i web you?
Of course, and of course. :) Atleast the player is doing something to fight back at that point. Webs/paints do increase missile dps.
Then make that apparent in the first post please. We all know many forum-warriors dont read between the lines on a lot of topics. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1357
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 17:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
I like anything that gives a victim a way to fight back. Would be interesting to see how many people fit a bait industrial with an armor tank and webs/painters just to screw with the gankers. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
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