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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1408
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Posted - 2014.05.21 23:43:00 -
[61] - Quote
What it describes are facets of everyday experience. The movement is centered around the idea that it isn't already happening and it won't happen naturally, but that isn't true. Transhumanism Human transformation is in full swing and there is no reason to expect it to stop at any point in the foreseeable future. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
3186
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Posted - 2014.05.21 23:48:00 -
[62] - Quote
Agreed, in terms of evolution, we may have reached a statis point. Each individual human is a pretty clever organism. But the collective species overall is a real dumbarse. Individually and in discrete groups, we have the intelligence to develop brilliant new technologies and innovations. But collectively, we can't overcome the Tragedy of the Commons problem. (Basically, that's the dilemma of when individuals are rationally motivated to act in their own self interest, even though by doing so, they cause adverse effects to everyone in the group (including themselves). Some examples: environmental toxic pollution, human-caused global warming, depletion of ocean fish stocks, depletion of freshwater supplies, nuclear proliferation.
We have the capacity to develop very powerful industries and technologies that can adversely affect the entire species. But we haven't developed a social mechanism or social consciousness that would help us limit the adverse effects of our cleverness. We're still following the self-interest system we've always had, even though that system tools powerful enough to eventually make us all extinct. "Were [sic] not your monkey and so what?"-á -The Sex Pistols (2006) |
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10888
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 01:15:00 -
[63] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:What it describes are facets of everyday experience. The movement is centered around the idea that it isn't already happening and it won't happen naturally, but that isn't true. Transhumanism Human transformation is in full swing and there is no reason to expect it to stop at any point in the foreseeable future. I'll point out that you are disagreeing with the underpinnings of the movement and hence belonging to one of the identified factions (sects?). You and I may like the goals, and even think these things will happen "naturally." But Khergit lays his finger on the core argument of the movement.
Khergit Deserters wrote:...collectively, we can't overcome the Tragedy of the Commons problem. In my view, in the same excellent post, he raises one of the central problems the movement must address but fails to in any coherent or practical fashion:
Khergit Deserters wrote:...we haven't developed a social mechanism or social consciousness that would help us limit the adverse effects of our cleverness. The interesting thing he leaves out is that we had other societal tools that we are leaving behind, for good or ill, that did help balance us against the Tragedy of the Commons. Like it or hate, subscribe to it or decry it, religion was a powerful social tool that operated on groups at a moral level.
That mechanism as social tool may be inadequate today, but we have utterly failed to supply any reasonable replacement. Environmentalism? Nope. Trancendentalism? Nope. Transhumanism? Nope. Various forms of economic and political isms? Nope.
Why does Transhumanism fail in that evaluation? Because no matter which school of thought (see the Wikipedia entry for the various branches) they all hope that a social limiting mechanism (governance with a small "g") will arise as a side-effect. I'd submit it is a precondition. If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1638
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Posted - 2014.05.22 07:37:00 -
[64] - Quote
Quote:religion was a powerful social tool that operated on groups at a moral level
Not the religion but rather the enforcing of its rules. You know that you could get fine officially in the middle ages for not going to a church? And those other official conotations or the ruling class with the religious zealots. And in antiquity when the Pharaoh was a gods son in Egypt. They have ruled your back with a stick and your mind with a word.
Now the pyramids lie in ruins and we have flag sticked on the moon, and religion is not really an official "respect that or be punished severely physically" in the country which have sticked it on the moon. When weapons, technology, and economies mature faster than the leadership culture entrusted with them, disaster ensues. http://i.minus.com/ibeZ0sJewvDMBN.gif |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1408
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Posted - 2014.05.22 08:00:00 -
[65] - Quote
There is something to what Ila Dace said though. Entire groups of people in a religion can mostly be counted on to do certain things that they believe are important to do based on their religion. Sometimes these things are beneficial to society, yet people won't do these things without either being supervised or coerced into believing they are being supervised. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1642
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 08:12:00 -
[66] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:There is something to what Ila Dace said though. Entire groups of people in a religion can mostly be counted on to do certain things that they believe are important to do based on their religion. Sometimes these things are beneficial to society, yet people won't do these things without either being supervised or coerced into believing they are being supervised.
Well, but you have to bring people to religion and hold them. Stick and carrot, it works all the time. I have seen priests and politicians doing that, and profiting from that greatly. I fear that transhumanism will go this way too, become an ideology for masses and then it will try to legitimize all ethical and unethical solutions just for the few that will profit from it for the most part. When weapons, technology, and economies mature faster than the leadership culture entrusted with them, disaster ensues. http://i.minus.com/ibeZ0sJewvDMBN.gif |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1408
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 16:42:00 -
[67] - Quote
I'm more hopeful. I think that regardless of the movement's direction, humans will continue to adapt and grow in ways that will ultimately be much more beneficial to us than harmful. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1648
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 16:45:00 -
[68] - Quote
Projects and open communities would make a nice addition to a capitalism, something like Project Venus, but without the underlying ideology that have some strict rules beside "dont harm your fellow human being". When weapons, technology, and economies mature faster than the leadership culture entrusted with them, disaster ensues. http://i.minus.com/ibeZ0sJewvDMBN.gif |
Malaclypse Muscaria
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
116
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Posted - 2014.05.22 18:57:00 -
[69] - Quote
I have nothing against Transhumanism per se: to make it short, I take a nihilistic view of the universe and our existences, and thus discussions regarding the "ethics" of things, or the "definition of how X should be", come across to me as not just sterile and devoid of real meaning, but also often unhelpful and distracting.
I do have my own personal values, certainly, as constructed by my own personal experiences and personal sense of empathy, but I'd rather take a purely pragmatic approach to things, and not waste time with "ethics": millenia of religious thinking and its system of absolute truths, morals and values has already poisoned human thinking more than enough.
But on the other hand I was studying in Berkeley in the early and mid 90s, where I found a lot of what now has become part of the Transhuman / H+ movement - I remember being subscribed to Mondo 2000 and reading and re-reading every single word that was printed there, as well as immersing myself into a lot of AI research, cyberculture, techgnosis, yada yada yada, those sort of things.
And as excited as I was about it all back then in my youthful naviete, I figure now - particularly seeing what has become of all those futuristic visions and predictions 20 years later - Transhumanism involves as well a lot of nonsense, wishful thinking and role-playing by science-fiction nerds (and hell, I sure qualify as one, I'm writing this on an internet spaceships forum after all).
So, it all sounds pretty cool to think about, and I do think we should cherish our dreams, and let them inform the things we strive for and work towards to: but lets also be pragmatic about it, keep our feet on the ground and not let ourselves get carried away with nonsense.
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Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10937
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Posted - 2014.05.25 20:17:00 -
[70] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Projects and open communities would make a nice addition to a capitalism, something like Project Venus, but without the underlying ideology that have some strict rules beside "dont harm your fellow human being". Sounds great. Define "harm." If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg |
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1684
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Posted - 2014.05.25 22:32:00 -
[71] - Quote
Ila Dace wrote:Bagrat Skalski wrote:Projects and open communities would make a nice addition to a capitalism, something like Project Venus, but without the underlying ideology that have some strict rules beside "dont harm your fellow human being". Sounds great. Define "harm." Just ask someone injured or sorrowful and you will know. There is no need for definition. When weapons, technology, and economies mature faster than the leadership culture entrusted with them, disaster ensues. http://i.minus.com/ibeZ0sJewvDMBN.gif |
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10957
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Posted - 2014.05.26 00:31:00 -
[72] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Ila Dace wrote:Bagrat Skalski wrote:Projects and open communities would make a nice addition to a capitalism, something like Project Venus, but without the underlying ideology that have some strict rules beside "dont harm your fellow human being". Sounds great. Define "harm." Just ask someone injured or sorrowful and you will know. There is no need for definition. ...and you make my point for me. If you define it as making someone feel bad, that rules out a great many medical interventions. It also rules out a great many other kinds of technological interventions that would cause short or medium term suffering and long term benefit.
Consider vaccinations. We just went through the first set with our baby. It caused her suffering for a few days, not the least of which were the bandages coming off on the second day. But we know that she, and the other children she'll be around are likely better off for the intervention.
Conversely, if you excuse all suffering in the name of "progress" like so many -isms we've seen enacted before, you end up with millions dead to pave the way toward "something better".
You have to put a definition to "harm" beyond "I'll know it when I see it." If you do not, you end up excusing everything, or refusing everything. Waving your hands and leaving it to common sense isn't good enough either when, by definition, Transhumanism is seeking to replace or move the norm. If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg |
Sibyyl
Brave Collective
1275
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 05:55:00 -
[73] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Agreed, in terms of evolution, we may have reached a statis point. Each individual human is a pretty clever organism. But the collective species overall is a real dumbarse. One of the paths that evolution takes may be towards higher intelligence (whatever that might be), but it's really a very tiny part of its scope. Humans may be developing better resistances to living in smog. We certainly multitask a lot better than our previous generation. The technological learning curve is incredibly steep today compared to 20-30 years ago.
Of course we are greedy and we devour resources and we screw each other over, but I think the "stupidity of crowds" isn't a new phenomenon. I mean.. was there ever a time that the collective species was this marvelous, intelligent, graceful thing?
Quote:Individually and in discrete groups, we have the intelligence to develop brilliant new technologies and innovations. But collectively, we can't overcome the Tragedy of the Commons problem. (Basically, that's the dilemma of when individuals are rationally motivated to act in their own self interest, even though by doing so, they cause adverse effects to everyone in the group (including themselves). Some examples: environmental toxic pollution, human-caused global warming, depletion of ocean fish stocks, depletion of freshwater supplies, nuclear proliferation. Agree with this.. we try and do good but we do more worse than good, overall.
Quote:We have the capacity to develop very powerful industries and technologies that can adversely affect the entire species. But we haven't developed a social mechanism or social consciousness that would help us limit the adverse effects of our cleverness. We're still following the self-interest system we've always had, even though that system tools powerful enough to eventually make us all extinct. We can't abandon technology just because we might use it to destroy ourselves. Anything that can do significant good in the world likely has the power to do an equal or greater amount of bad things, too. Travel to exotic solar systems, meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture, and strip ore from their ship hulls. Join BOVRL. Blood Miners take SOV.-á |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1712
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 09:36:00 -
[74] - Quote
Less people being harmed? Forms of harm are changing constantly. We are learning not to harm ourselves all the time.
Quote:Consider vaccinations. We just went through the first set with our baby. It caused her suffering for a few days, not the least of which were the bandages coming off on the second day. But we know that she, and the other children she'll be around are likely better off for the intervention.
People have learned what is harming them, good. Then they teach your body by making a little harm to it, to avopid greater harm, good. Unfortunately, viruses and bacteries don't know when to stop evolving. It will be a constant struggle, and the microbes are always one step ahead of humans vaccinations. First we have to learn what is bad for us to react. Environment is teaching us all the time. Like people living in a sterile enviroments form a weak immune system, then when the bubble bursts, they are all a contagious walking bomb, lesson learned, take your environment with you, adapt to it, without it, you are weak. Your body have to learn what is harm, to react in time, to make you stronger, or to die trying. The only kind of end to this struggle.
Quote: by definition, Transhumanism is seeking to replace or move the norm.
Should you change the norm for whole environment, not only a man? Well, we should see what kind of harm it would do to us then. People will adapt and society will change according to it. Some of them will not try to push to it, they will try to find the other way, they will compete with transhumanists. I think its the best what transhumanists can have, an opposite. When weapons, technology, and economies mature faster than the leadership culture entrusted with them, disaster ensues. http://i.minus.com/ibeZ0sJewvDMBN.gif |
Sibyyl
Brave Collective
1309
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 17:10:00 -
[75] - Quote
^^ I always enjoy Bagrat posts. Travel to exotic solar systems, meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture, and strip ore from their ship hulls. Join BOVRL. Blood Miners take SOV.-á |
Dorian Tormak
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
148
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Posted - 2014.05.27 15:03:00 -
[76] - Quote
What happens to world class athletes in competitive sports?
Are genetically enhanced humans, or even cyborgs, allowed to compete at the highest level, where most "steroids" are currently already banned from use, like in football and MMA? "Hey, cruel world... you don't have what it takes! We don't need your FAITH, we got fuckin' FATE! Fate, fate, fate!" - Marilyn Manson |
Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
1968
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 15:18:00 -
[77] - Quote
There would be different categories I imagine. You don't participate in a bicycle race with your motorbike, either. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
688
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 15:44:00 -
[78] - Quote
I'm more of a layman on this subject but if I am understanding the term as it is being discussed, I am for transhumanism from the angle of preserving our intelligence for posterity.
I strongly believe we control our future at this point. We are not the dinosaurs that could do nothing as an asteroid brought their kind to its end. WE are intelligent enough to recognize the dangers that surround us and react to them. In that spirit, I believe we as a species must endeavor to put our eggs into more than one basket (ie Earth).
Evolution no longer affects us like it does other species. We are not under any selective pressures whatsoever and in fact, most recent genetic mutations that have been found are related to selection by societal pressures such as the ability to digest milk. We must take direct control over our genetic advancement if we are to endure the hardships of space and live long enough to reach other worlds. We cannot count on a workaround to the cosmic speed limit, we must explore other options including bio-engineering and even cybernetics.
While I doubt we are alone in the universe, we must assume we are possibly the only sentient life forms and do what we can to spread out through the cosmos in any form, even if there is not a trace of humanity left in it. It is really hard to change your signature settings |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1743
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 15:48:00 -
[79] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote: While I doubt we are alone in the universe, we must assume we are possibly the only sentient life forms and do what we can to spread out through the cosmos in any form, even if there is not a trace of humanity left in it.
We will be full of alienity. When weapons, technology, and economies mature faster than the leadership culture entrusted with them, disaster ensues. http://i.minus.com/ibeZ0sJewvDMBN.gif |
Malaclypse Muscaria
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
125
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 15:56:00 -
[80] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Evolution no longer affects us like it does other species. We are not under any selective pressures whatsoever and in fact, most recent genetic mutations that have been found are related to selection by societal pressures such as the ability to digest milk.
This sort of thing always makes me think of Idiocracy |
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Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
896
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Posted - 2014.05.27 16:07:00 -
[81] - Quote
I should have said natural selective pressures. I just realized in the same sentence i cited societal selective pressures. You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam.-á |
Nakami Saans
Perkone Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 19:14:00 -
[82] - Quote
I wanted to thank everybody who gave me their point of view on this subject! You all gave some interesting points to think about and include into my paper. The paper itself is finished and I will be turning it in next Tuesday. Again thank you! Rainbow Worrior of EVE...well...maybe worrior is too strong a word.-á I like to site see ^.^ Would like to make connections with other LGBT players, possibly a corp Please help me with my Philosophy Final! |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1725
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Posted - 2014.07.31 20:25:00 -
[83] - Quote
Are you going to post a transcript of the final work for us to see? Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Nakami Saans
Perkone Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 21:25:00 -
[84] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Are you going to post a transcript of the final work for us to see?
After I get my grade on it. I'm not the worlds best writer and I want to see how my professor grades it. I'm better at designing a network than writing a philosophy paper. Besides I want to read through it again before I get time and will probably rework a bit of it. Rainbow Worrior of EVE...well...maybe worrior is too strong a word.-á I like to site see ^.^ Would like to make connections with other LGBT players, possibly a corp Please help me with my Philosophy Final! |
Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
2095
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 09:15:00 -
[85] - Quote
I'd be interested in reading it as well, once you feel comfortable sharing it :) |
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