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Walton Street
The KAOS Holdings Group
0
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Posted - 2014.05.16 19:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Which is generally preferred for deterring someone from bashing a hisec POS? multiple ECM, or shield hardeners? (Assume turret damage is roughly equivalent for either build.) Hardeners help against all attackers at any range, but only if they use that damage type, ECM can interfere with any damage type, but only if they're in range and only as many ships as I have ECM. Both can be overcome with numbers. I see the pros and cons of both, I'm just unsure of the relative benefits.
Thanks.
No, I'm not telling you where this POS is going, nor what I'm doing with it.
No, you can't join my corp to be a starbase gunner.
And no, I don't want to buy your T2 BPO.
Just thought I'd put those out there. |
tx eight
The Dry Stout Society
1
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Posted - 2014.05.16 19:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Walton Street wrote:Which is generally preferred for deterring someone from bashing a hisec POS?
Vigilance.
Walton Street wrote: multiple ECM, or shield hardeners?
There is no 'or' here. There is only 'and'.
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Walton Street
The KAOS Holdings Group
0
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Posted - 2014.05.16 19:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
tx eight wrote:Vigilance.
Well, yes. However, I was speaking specifically to starbase structures, not whether or not I'd be stupid and neglect it.
tx eight wrote:There is no 'or' here. There is only 'and'.
Humor me for a moment and assume for a moment that it's "or" due to fitting limitations. |
Inka Heluene
INKA Holdings
1
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Posted - 2014.05.16 19:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Having no hardeners would just be a bad idea, but at the same time there's only so many you can use before stacking penalty's hit. So the there is no "or". If fitting limitation came into play you could play around with lower resists in exchange for extra ECM but you still are going to need both. I would recommend maxing out resists and go from there. |
Walton Street
The KAOS Holdings Group
0
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Posted - 2014.05.16 20:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'm sensing that I'm on the wrong track here, so let me tweak my question somewhat.
I am planning a POS and I can only fit two of the following three:
1. Guns 2. EWar 3. Resists
I had assumed that #1 was a given, but now it's sounding more like #2 and #3 is the best option. Am I getting that right? |
Inka Heluene
INKA Holdings
1
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Posted - 2014.05.16 20:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
What size of pos? If its a small I really wouldn't worry much about defending it IMO. For larger ones ewar is necessary IMO, it will annoy most attackers to the point they might just leave. And resists are required for proper defense as it goes inside the force field. Guns I'd rank 3rd on the list.
*I should note I've never actually been attacked so this is somewhat theoretical :D
Edit: Also, when hooking up some guns go with small/medium. Skip the large! |
Walton Street
The KAOS Holdings Group
0
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Posted - 2014.05.16 20:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Inka Heluene wrote:What size of pos? If its a small I really wouldn't worry much about defending it IMO. For larger ones ewar is necessary IMO, it will annoy most attackers to the point they might just leave. And resists are required for proper defense as it goes inside the force field. Guns I'd rank 3rd on the list.
*I should note I've never actually been attacked so this is somewhat theoretical :D
Edit: Also, when hooking up some guns go with small/medium. Skip the large!
Oh I'm daft. I meant to include in the OP that this is a small POS. Sorry.
Thanks for the tip on gun size, but that's one thing that I actually remembered: POS guns are "oversized", so small guns are really cruiser-level and medium are battleship-level. |
Inka Heluene
INKA Holdings
1
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Posted - 2014.05.16 20:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
In that case I'd setup enough defense to give you some extra time to get online, grab your stuff, and gtfo. Odds of an attack are low enough I'd consider it disposable. Just carefully manage what you store there. |
Walton Street
The KAOS Holdings Group
0
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Posted - 2014.05.16 20:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thanks for the input. I'm just using it as a jumping-off point for some research and production, all low-level stuff. If it pans out, I may upgrade.
Cheers! |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
39
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Posted - 2014.05.16 21:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Drone boats laugh at your ECM. |
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Walton Street
The KAOS Holdings Group
0
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Posted - 2014.05.16 22:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aerie Evingod wrote:Drone boats laugh at your ECM.
An excellent point, one I should have remembered from my earlier years.
Can a POS gunner target drones with EWar modules (or any modules for that matter)? |
Nightingale Actault
Divided Unity The Night Crew Alliance
24
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Posted - 2014.05.16 23:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
You won't have to worry about defenses for a small POS. The lack of fitting room is going to mean that any attacker is going to get through your defenses quite easily. Your best option is to make sure you can check your EVE notifications daily and tear it down anytime you get wardecced. Once you start moving up to a medium/large POS is when these things will become more necessary. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
318
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Posted - 2014.05.17 01:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Walton Street wrote:Aerie Evingod wrote:Drone boats laugh at your ECM. An excellent point, one I should have remembered from my earlier years. Can a POS gunner target drones with EWar modules (or any modules for that matter)?
Yes you can ECM drones but that would be a ******** use of POS ECM. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1936
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Posted - 2014.05.17 02:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Smalls aren't worth defending in high sec. Just unanchor it if wardec'd. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3619
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Posted - 2014.05.17 04:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Towers are easy to replace, and even more so after July 22. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3272
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Posted - 2014.05.17 19:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ewar is less useful now with Marauders immunity to ewar. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Walton Street
The KAOS Holdings Group
0
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Posted - 2014.05.19 13:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Ewar is less useful now with Marauders immunity to ewar.
That's another thing I've been wondering: have people started using Bastioned Marauders as hisec dreads yet? Their one PvP weakness (aside from their price) was their low sensor strength which made them easy to jam with ECM, but with the Bastion Module, that limitation is gone. |
Marcus Iunius Brutus
NerdRage Inc.
37
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Posted - 2014.05.19 14:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
Walton Street wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Ewar is less useful now with Marauders immunity to ewar. That's another thing I've been wondering: have people started using Bastioned Marauders as hisec dreads yet? Their one PvP weakness (aside from their price) was their low sensor strength which made them easy to jam with ECM, but with the Bastion Module, that limitation is gone.
I took a look at zkillboard and here are Caldari Control Towers kills involving Marauders from 1st March to this day: https://zkillboard.com/kill/38118861/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/37945476/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/38614893/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/37212592/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/37167710/
To be honest, I thought I'd find more. |
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
3396
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Posted - 2014.05.19 15:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
Walton Street wrote:I'm sensing that I'm on the wrong track here, so let me tweak my question somewhat.
I am planning a POS and I can only fit two of the following three:
1. Guns 2. EWar 3. Resists
I had assumed that #1 was a given, but now it's sounding more like #2 and #3 is the best option. Am I getting that right? Generally, on a small pos there won;t be enough guns for anyone to care. They'll sent in a group to declaw the POS, then grind though the shields.
The best way to defend a POS is to make it as unappealing as possible to fight. A few hardeners and a shedload of ECM is usually a good bet, with just a couple of guns to blap a few things. Guns are cheap, so sling a few offline ones up so you can swap and change if needed, and keep a bunch of guns to throw onto the POS if it does get reinforced.
Think about it this way. Shooting a POS that is shooting you means you have to out-tank the guns as you grind through the shields. Shooting a POS that is knocking out your targeting with ECM means you need to keep targeting and firing, and can become tedious and annoying. But what others have said is true, a small POS is barely worth defending, since even a small group could nuke it. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
196
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Posted - 2014.05.19 15:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
First off - Small POS is a disposable asset. If you cannot defend it don't expect it to be able to withstand to a strong solar wind, nevermind any kind of assault.
Given the immunity of marauders to ECM and the fact drones laugh at you as well (can someone confirm if drones are still immune to ECM?) the ECM blobstar of yore is less effective than it was.
Which leaves guns and hardeners. Lots of guns is always nice but I ran some calculation on a POS with lots of shield hardeners...
You can get close to 300 million EHP on a large POS, which will take a fleet doing 10k DPS over 20 hours to take down, assuming no shield regen (i.e. will take longer).
In other words - sure the hardeners only way can get your POS knocked out, if someone really wants to do it, but it's going to be a very long, very painful slog to do so. They might just decide to go blow up the POS of some other guy.
Of course, ECM is still good if you know whoever comes knocking doesn't have marauders available I guess. |
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Coffee Rocks
Thrall Nation Brave Collective
174
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Posted - 2014.05.20 07:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Walton Street wrote:I'm sensing that I'm on the wrong track here, so let me tweak my question somewhat.
I am planning a POS and I can only fit two of the following three:
1. Guns 2. EWar 3. Resists
I had assumed that #1 was a given, but now it's sounding more like #2 and #3 is the best option. Am I getting that right?
If someone really wants to bash your small POS in HS, no combination of those 3 will mean a thing on their own. You need defenders, and in the case you have them, POS gunners would be crucial. It's all subjective and absolutely matters: do you have gunners? do you have good PVP teams that can meet timers? what racial tower? is losing it that big of a deal?
Small POS's are considered disposable, to be honest. If it's a small group attacking you, the deciding factor will still be ship vs. ship. If you plan to defend a large POS (I'm assuming you are looking to anchor a POS and haven't already), I can give you some advice:
- Keep extra guns/ECM anchored and ready to online. Doesn't hurt to have even more ready in station.
- Keep it full of strontium. Keep an extra bay's worth of stront in backstock for each POS.
- Keep at least 30 days worth of fuel in backstock in a nearby station.
- Each racial tower has "holes" in their resists. Plug the holes with hardeners, and have more hardeners anchored and ready to online before you get wardecced. When you get wardecced, see what ammo types they typically use and online a few extra hardeners of that type. Switch extra resists as necessary.
- Faction ammo in the guns is not necessary, unless you really really want to (I typically do in our Amarr POS's, but that's me).
- ECM is your best friend. Cruise missile batteries are useless. Large guns are useless. Stick with small guns, mix of short and long range.
- Never leave PG/CPU empty - fill it up with online defensive modules. Offline guns/ECM/Hardeners you don't need when you need to free up PG/CPU, then offline and store away all non-defensive modules when wardecced.
- Don't give just anyone roles that can unfuel or unanchor POS's or modules. You better trust them.
- Same as above, but with Starbase Defender role. Nothing sucks worse than an awoxer POS-gunning your Orca.
- Make your password something no one will guess, for crying out loud.
- Never keep BPO's in the POS hangers directly (until the next expansion of course :P)
- HELL, you are in Highsec - NEVER keep ANYTHING you can store in the station in the POS.
- If you are wardecced, make tactical bookmarks in that system before it takes affect. Then make a bunch just for yourself (in case of spy). Instant docks (warps you to 0 on the stations), instant undocks from stations (at least 300km, but further the better as long as it's a clean warp), tacticals around your POS and the station, tacs on the gates, safes, etc.
- Keep POSpreys handy if you think you'll need to repair shield damage.
- Keep doctrine ships in 2 or more stations in system (if you can) to mess with enemy. Makes them mad when they can't just camp ONE station. :)
- This is EVE. If you get wardecced, get your corp together, call in friends, and go have fun losing cheap destroyers killing them. As long as you kill more value than you lose, they won't bother 'deccing you again, and you will have gained VALUABLE PVP experience.
Fly Brave http://www.thecoffeerocks.com Twitter: @thecoffeerocks |-áSteam: CoffeeRocks-á https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=327221 |
Walton Street
The KAOS Holdings Group
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 16:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
Coffee Rocks wrote:If someone really wants to bash your small POS in HS, no combination of those 3 will mean a thing on their own. You need defenders, and in the case you have them, POS gunners would be crucial. It's all subjective and absolutely matters: do you have gunners? do you have good PVP teams that can meet timers? what racial tower? is losing it that big of a deal? Small POS's are considered disposable, to be honest. If it's a small group attacking you, the deciding factor will still be ship vs. ship. If you plan to defend a large POS (I'm assuming you are looking to anchor a POS and haven't already), I can give you some advice:
- Keep extra guns/ECM anchored and ready to online. Doesn't hurt to have even more ready in station.
- Keep it full of strontium. Keep an extra bay's worth of stront in backstock for each POS.
- Keep at least 30 days worth of fuel in backstock in a nearby station.
- Each racial tower has "holes" in their resists. Plug the holes with hardeners, and have more hardeners anchored and ready to online before you get wardecced. When you get wardecced, see what ammo types they typically use and online a few extra hardeners of that type. Switch extra resists as necessary.
- Faction ammo in the guns is not necessary, unless you really really want to (I typically do in our Amarr POS's, but that's me).
- ECM is your best friend. Cruise missile batteries are useless. Large guns are useless. Stick with small guns, mix of short and long range.
- Never leave PG/CPU empty - fill it up with online defensive modules. Offline guns/ECM/Hardeners you don't need when you need to free up PG/CPU, then offline and store away all non-defensive modules when wardecced.
- Don't give just anyone roles that can unfuel or unanchor POS's or modules. You better trust them.
- Same as above, but with Starbase Defender role. Nothing sucks worse than an awoxer POS-gunning your Orca.
- Make your password something no one will guess, for crying out loud.
- Never keep BPO's in the POS hangers directly (until the next expansion of course :P)
- HELL, you are in Highsec - NEVER keep ANYTHING you can store in the station in the POS.
- If you are wardecced, make tactical bookmarks in that system before it takes affect. Then make a bunch just for yourself (in case of spy). Instant docks (warps you to 0 on the stations), instant undocks from stations (at least 300km, but further the better as long as it's a clean warp), tacticals around your POS and the station, tacs on the gates, safes, etc.
- Keep POSpreys handy if you think you'll need to repair shield damage.
- Keep doctrine ships in 2 or more stations in system (if you can) to mess with enemy. Makes them mad when they can't just camp ONE station. :)
- This is EVE. If you get wardecced, get your corp together, call in friends, and go have fun losing cheap destroyers killing them. As long as you kill more value than you lose, they won't bother 'deccing you again, and you will have gained VALUABLE PVP experience.
Fly Brave
Thanks for all the tips. I was vaguely aware of most of these from my previous incarnation, but being reminded never hurts.
So, small POS = disposable. Got it. Given how little they cost, I guess that makes sense. And given that I wasn't planning on doing anything too important there, that makes sense too. Mostly, just giving it a try.
One question: what is a "doctrine" ship? I'm guessing from your post that it's a standard fit combat vessel, but I wanted to check.
One last generic question: do you need to have a corporate hangar online for input/output of research & manufacturing jobs? I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes", but I figured I'd ask.
Thanks again to everyone who's provided input.
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Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1347
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Posted - 2014.05.20 17:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
If you're going to keep BPOs/BPCs in station and use them remotely (until next expansion), you need an office rented at a station in the system. Outputs are placed in the lab/array's own hanger. |
Walton Street
The KAOS Holdings Group
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Elena Thiesant wrote:If you're going to keep BPOs/BPCs in station and use them remotely (until next expansion), you need an office rented at a station in the system. Outputs are placed in the lab/array's own hanger.
So, to clarify, I don't need a corporate hangar anchored and online to do research/production? |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1347
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Posted - 2014.05.20 19:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
No. |
Walton Street
The KAOS Holdings Group
0
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Posted - 2014.05.20 20:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thanks. I appreciate the patience. I figure it's better to ask these questions now before I start anchoring stuff. |
Kaea Astridsson
Yggdrasil Woodchoppers Noir. Mercenary Group
43
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Posted - 2014.05.21 07:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
I think you're able to try it out on SiSi. |
Coffee Rocks
Thrall Nation Brave Collective
177
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Posted - 2014.05.23 19:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
Walton Street wrote: Thanks for all the tips. I was vaguely aware of most of these from my previous incarnation, but being reminded never hurts.
So, small POS = disposable. Got it. Given how little they cost, I guess that makes sense. And given that I wasn't planning on doing anything too important there, that makes sense too. Mostly, just giving it a try.
One question: what is a "doctrine" ship? I'm guessing from your post that it's a standard fit combat vessel, but I wanted to check.
One last generic question: do you need to have a corporate hangar online for input/output of research & manufacturing jobs? I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes", but I figured I'd ask.
Thanks again to everyone who's provided input.
"Doctrine" refers to a particular Ship and Fitting that your corp/alliance/coalition all fly. Typically, you give a certain doctrine a fun and relevant name and then have several ships with that doctrine's name. For instance, you might have a newbie friendly Highsec home defense Doctrine, named "Walton Fleet" which is comprised of Scythes (shield logi), T1 Condors (cheap, fast tackler), T1 Griffins (cheap, throwaway ECM frig), Talwars (rapid response kiting), railgun Thoraxes (main body), and maybe Feroxes (higher DPS/tank for response to enemy BCs/BSs). All shield, with skills that complement one another (Caldari and Hybrid gun pilots can graduate ship types fairly easy, for instance), while maintaining needed roles such as Logi and EWAR.
Dude, and let me just say not enough of Highseccers and Lowseccers in EVE, in general, understand how important it is to incorporate good, cheap EWAR into your fleet. A pair of Griffins/Maulus that cost less than 1mil ISK to put together in your 5man gang can ruin any other small gang's day, and 40 T1 Griffins/Maulus w/ tackle will make Goons run in terror. Trust me on that.
Why do Doctrines? Well, several reasons, really.
- It allows your FC to quickly know the best ways to use his fleet (i.e., our Talwars are long range - keep the fleet at range!, etc)
- It allows your members to concentrate their skills on a particular doctrine and know what and WHY to have in their hanger
- It allows your Indy and Markets guys to concentrate on particular ships/modules/ammo/rigs instead of trying to build anything and everything.
- It allows your doctrine ships to fly best together. The most obvious example is: Armor PVP ships w/ armor logi.
- It allows your leadership to shift to a different doctrine when they know they are fighting a particular enemy soon that has a weakness in theirs. Example: shift your Bomber doctrine to EM bombs if your enemy has a shield fleet doctrine with an EM hole in their resists.
As for the POS question: You don't need a hanger or Ship Maintenance Array (SMA) online until you need to empty the manufacturing array. That said: I'm not 100% on arrays such as Ammunition Assembly Array, as I use them rarely and would almost always have the other modules online anyways. So take that with a grain of salt since I'm pulling it out of memory. :P http://www.thecoffeerocks.com Twitter: @thecoffeerocks |-áSteam: CoffeeRocks-á https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=327221 |
Coffee Rocks
Thrall Nation Brave Collective
177
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 20:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Walton Street wrote:Elena Thiesant wrote:If you're going to keep BPOs/BPCs in station and use them remotely (until next expansion), you need an office rented at a station in the system. Outputs are placed in the lab/array's own hanger. So, to clarify, I don't need a corporate hangar anchored and online to do research/production?
No, you do not if you have the BPOs in a corporate hanger located in a station in the system.
FYI - if you do copying, your copies will show up in the POS Lab hanger. If you do invention, you will need the additional materials in the Lab hanger, but you can still start the job from the corp hanger in Station. The successful invention BPC's will also show up in the Lab hanger at the POS.
I tell you that so you are mindful to collect those finished copies, and aren't submitting trouble tickets saying "MAH S41T DIDN'T WERK!"
Again, as Elena said, this is only relevant until next expansion, at which time the sky will open up and fall on all our heads. http://www.thecoffeerocks.com Twitter: @thecoffeerocks |-áSteam: CoffeeRocks-á https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=327221 |
Coffee Rocks
Thrall Nation Brave Collective
177
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 20:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Walton Street wrote:Thanks. I appreciate the patience. I figure it's better to ask these questions now before I start anchoring stuff.
The only knowledge in this game is found through trial and error, or asking for help from the experienced (no guarantees on both of those methods, either ;)
Don't let the trolls that call the forums their home dismay you. Most of us aren't all that bad and will help when we have the time.
Or, you can just join Thrall, BNI or another Brave corp and have direct access :D http://www.thecoffeerocks.com Twitter: @thecoffeerocks |-áSteam: CoffeeRocks-á https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=327221 |
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