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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21925
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:06:00 -
[781] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lets repeat what you said GǪand notice that it is not even remotely what you claimed I said. That was just some nonsense you made up because you couldn't provide any kind of coherent point or counter-argument.
Quote:The changes being imposed by Fozzie are in fact GÇ£In fact?GÇ¥ What do you base that on?
Harvey James wrote:are cargohold rigs stacking penalized? Not as far as I know. They don't say anything to the effect and none of the fitting tools apply any such penalties. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1531
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:07:00 -
[782] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Tippia wrote:Regan Rotineque wrote:what i dont understand is why you nerfed the freighters
could you not have left the stats the same and then built negative modifiers into the rigs? GǪthereby nerfing all capital ships rather than just balance freighters? Yeah, no. I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed?
if that is what he means then i would like to point out that the penalties on rigs are small and can further be halved by skills.
leaving the stats alone and just adding rigs slots is an absolute buff and power creep. Freighters dnt need buffs, and power creep is bad. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Regan Rotineque
Arch Angels Assault Force The Kadeshi
325
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:07:00 -
[783] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Regan Rotineque wrote:what i dont understand is why you nerfed the freighters
could you not have left the stats the same and then built negative modifiers into the rigs? GǪthereby nerfing all capital ships rather than just balance freighters? Yeah, no.
keep reading tippia
i said later that the penalties apply to freighter and jump freighter class vessels
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Dave Stark
5756
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:07:00 -
[784] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Tippia wrote:Lair Osen wrote:I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed? It sounds like he wants more. And still, that's an even simpler answer: because they have to keep the freighters balanced even after the bonuses that rigs will provide. are cargohold rigs stacking penalized? not that i'm aware of. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
10167
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:09:00 -
[785] - Quote
Harvey James wrote: any thoughts on the JF tanking bonuses i mentioned?
It's an interesting idea, potentially combined with some other tank changes. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6340
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:09:00 -
[786] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Harvey James wrote:Tippia wrote:Lair Osen wrote:I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed? It sounds like he wants more. And still, that's an even simpler answer: because they have to keep the freighters balanced even after the bonuses that rigs will provide. are cargohold rigs stacking penalized? not that i'm aware of.
I also believe that the answer is no. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Regan Rotineque
Arch Angels Assault Force The Kadeshi
325
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:09:00 -
[787] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Lair Osen wrote:Tippia wrote:Regan Rotineque wrote:what i dont understand is why you nerfed the freighters
could you not have left the stats the same and then built negative modifiers into the rigs? GǪthereby nerfing all capital ships rather than just balance freighters? Yeah, no. I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed? if that is what he means then i would like to point out that the penalties on rigs are small and can further be halved by skills. leaving the stats alone and just adding rigs slots is an absolute buff and power creep. Freighters dnt need buffs, and power creep is bad.
penalties can be increased or skills not applied if necessary
the point of my post is to try to actually give some choice to the ship owner the current model is to nerf everyone...increase the price of the ships as you have to buy rigs to get back what you had im saying leave me what i had and let ME chose what nerf I want |
stoicfaux
4830
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:12:00 -
[788] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Pretty sure that was the point. That way you can't fit warp stabs. Or spend 700K with a DC 2 to vastly increase the effective hitpoints of the ship.
Or just prohibit DCs from being used on freighters.
The alternative, as you mentioned earlier, would be to reduce EHP by X% to compensate for the ability to mount a DC II so that freighters don't get a ridiculous tank buff. (But I really would not want to have to manually activate a DC after every jump, hence the suggestion to prohibit DCs on freighters.)
And WTF is wrong with putting warp stabs on a freighter?
Anyway, the point still stands; rigs aren't flexible enough to provide freighters with the desired level of customization based on what you're hauling at the time.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Pj Harvey
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
15
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:12:00 -
[789] - Quote
In an age where you can't autopilot through high sec without a good chance of being suicide ganked, you make freighters even more fragile?
I keep seeing a pattern these days in the changes you make, it's like you want everything to be more expensive and less durable, probably with the aim of selling more PLEX. |
Ammzi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
1766
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:13:00 -
[790] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Harvey James wrote: any thoughts on the JF tanking bonuses i mentioned?
It's an interesting idea, potentially combined with some other tank changes.
Is the overall plan with these rebalances to buff local industry and make it difficult to export to highsec and vice versa? Usually a few paragraphs are posted in your rebalancing threads to review your reasoning, this thread seems to lack it. Care to elaborate a bit on the reasoning? I am sure people would be a bit more understanding then when they realize it's not the goal to end up with a net buff. |
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Ammzi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
1766
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:14:00 -
[791] - Quote
Pj Harvey wrote:In an age where you can't autopilot through high sec without a good chance of being suicide ganked, you make freighters even more fragile?
I keep seeing a pattern these days in the changes you make, it's like you want everything to be more expensive and less durable, probably with the aim of selling more PLEX.
What chance/risk? As long as you don't carry stupendous amounts of high value cargo then it's pretty unlikely for you to get ganked. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21925
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:15:00 -
[792] - Quote
Regan Rotineque wrote:keep reading tippia
i said later that the penalties apply to freighter and jump freighter class vessels That effectively means you're creating a completely separate rig class, which means you've now created more problems and balance issues through your solution. Is the creation of that problem worth it for solving your first perceived issue?
Like I said earlier in the thread, if a GÇ£solutionGÇ¥ cascades into new problems that have to have their own special unique tweaks and solutions, chances are that it's not a good solution to begin with, especially when there's already a perfectly serviceable way out.
Quote:the point of my post is to try to actually give some choice to the ship owner You have plenty of choice. The entire problem is that some people assumed all along that being given choice would itself come without a cost, but that was never going to happen GÇö choice itself is too valuable, and the full array of choices you can make have to fit in the overall balance of the game.
Quote:im saying leave me what i had and let ME chose what nerf I want This solution lets you do that. You're just unhappy with the size of the nerfs your choice leaves you with. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
102
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:15:00 -
[793] - Quote
Honestly, all of you people up in arms over this... there's something you should take into account that should give most of you pause in your opposition:
You are agreeing with Gevlon "I have never been right about anything in EVE, ever" Goblin.
Think about this, and hang your heads in shame. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS type X
157
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:17:00 -
[794] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Ammzi wrote:
I am pretty sure you can dig up every single "buff freighter, give them rigs/modules" thread in the past 12 months and EVERY single one of them will have the "CCP could do that, but they would take something away to counter - is that what you want?"
That is not "some players, warned by handful of others". That is every single on-this-forum advocate being warned about it. ~told you so~
The most important part of what you said was rigs AND MODS!!. Are we getting mods so we get the flexibility we wanted at the cost of paying for rigs and mods....NO! Why are you asking to get nerfed even further? I mean, if they gave it even one lowslot they'd have to cut it's tank by about 40%. Nevermind everything else. Or do you just not get it yet? You are not getting a net buff out of this.
The ONLY people claiming I expected a net buff out of this is you and your kind. I expected them to set it up so that when you rigged and modded your freighter you could get it to exactly the same level of defense, maneuverability, capacity...etc...etc...etc as you do now. I even proposed freighter only rigs and mods to avoid unforeseeable consequences of adding rigs, lows, mids, and highs to freighters.
As i told another poster like yourself, please dont put words into my mouth I never said ("You are not getting a net buff out of this."). I know that speaking for both participants in an argument sure makes winning them easy and if people have let you get away with this cheap form of argumentation in the past I can assure you will not be repeating their mistake. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11624
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:18:00 -
[795] - Quote
Pj Harvey wrote:In an age where you can't autopilot through high sec without a good chance of being suicide ganked, you make freighters even more fragile?
I keep seeing a pattern these days in the changes you make, it's like you want everything to be more expensive and less durable, probably with the aim of selling more PLEX.
We worked out that there are greater chances of you being struck by lightning in RL than getting ganked. Unless you do something silly like stuffing 10 billion in the hold. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6340
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:19:00 -
[796] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Pretty sure that was the point. That way you can't fit warp stabs. Or spend 700K with a DC 2 to vastly increase the effective hitpoints of the ship.
Or just prohibit DCs from being used on freighters. The alternative, as you mentioned earlier, would be to reduce EHP by X% to compensate for the ability to mount a DC II so that freighters don't get a ridiculous tank buff. (But I really would not want to have to manually activate a DC after every jump, hence the suggestion to prohibit DCs on freighters.)
And if they did that, it would be pretty much mandatory to put DC2s on your freighter, otherwise you can get ganked by 3 Vexors.
In such a case, why change anything? To make people feel better? Psh.
Quote: And WTF is wrong with putting warp stabs on a freighter?
If they were intended to have them, they would have lowslots. I for one, would be very happy if freighters (and especially jump freighters) were not invincible.
Quote: Anyway, the point still stands; rigs aren't flexible enough to provide freighters with the desired level of customization based on what you're hauling at the time.
Pretty sure they will never give you that option to tailor your freighters so thoroughly. Few enough of them die as it is without letting you freely refit for tank 2 jumps before Uedama or Perimeter. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
57
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:19:00 -
[797] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Tippia wrote:Lair Osen wrote:I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed? It sounds like he wants more. And still, that's an even simpler answer: because they have to keep the freighters balanced even after the bonuses that rigs will provide. are cargohold rigs stacking penalized?
No, neither are low slot cargo expanders |
Myst Valkyria
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
11
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:26:00 -
[798] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:....And I'm caught up.
Ok thanks to the goodposters in this thread so far. I'll definitely be taking the feedback here into account.
As usual, a friendly reminder that death threats are generally a suboptimal way of convincing someone of the correctness of your perspective.
I'm seeing some good feedback about the unique role of Jump Freighters meaning that they don't get much benefit from rigs other than cargo rigs, and this is indeed a problem that limits player choice. I'm going to bring up a few ways to help solve that issue with the other designers early next week.
I do want to clarify that although it's very possible that a lot of these numbers can change, we're not going to simply give JFs a gigantic buff to their cargoholds and call it a day. The fast movement of goods across the galaxy has its advantages and also its disadvantages, and we are not going to simply let power creep get out of control in this area.
I'll be continuing to read this thread, chatting with the CSM and the other designers here and I'm confident we'll get to the best possible version of these changes.
Thanks!
So...no mention of how crippling these changes are to normal freighters? The freighter was never overpowered, nor has anyone ever complained that they were. They need a buff, not Sophie's Choice... |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
741
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:26:00 -
[799] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Honestly, all of you people up in arms over this... there's something you should take into account that should give most of you pause in your opposition: You are agreeing with Gevlon "I have never been right about anything in EVE, ever" Goblin. Think about this, and hang your heads in shame.
[Insert mumble about stopped clocks] Fluffy Bunny Pic! |
Regan Rotineque
Arch Angels Assault Force The Kadeshi
325
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:26:00 -
[800] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Regan Rotineque wrote:keep reading tippia
i said later that the penalties apply to freighter and jump freighter class vessels That effectively means you're creating a completely separate rig class, which means you've now created more problems and balance issues through your solution. Is the creation of that problem worth it for solving your first perceived issue? Like I said earlier in the thread, if a GÇ£solutionGÇ¥ cascades into new problems that have to have their own special unique tweaks and solutions, chances are that it's not a good solution to begin with, especially when there's already a perfectly serviceable way out. Quote:the point of my post is to try to actually give some choice to the ship owner You have plenty of choice. The entire problem is that some people assumed all along that being given choice would itself come without a cost, but that was never going to happen GÇö choice itself is too valuable, and the full array of choices you can make have to fit in the overall balance of the game. Quote:im saying leave me what i had and let ME chose what nerf I want This solution lets you do that. You're just unhappy with the size of the nerfs your choice leaves you with.
what i find amuzing about your post is that i would bet you either dont own, or even fly a freighter you probably have nothing to do with logistics or supplying your corp/alliance with goods and ships for an industrial themed release, kicking people who are responsible for these types of services that make everyones life in null better is a bit daft imho
no where did i say there should not be penalties for modifying a freighter or jump freighter....what i dont like is that they nerf the entire ship then force you to put back the parts you want. I prefer to start with the ship whole and if i want Leave it the way it was or choose to modify it. CCP is fond of saying risk vs reward these changes are 100% risk and 0% reward since all the changes do is increase the value of a km by addi expensive rigs to it |
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1531
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:29:00 -
[801] - Quote
Regan Rotineque wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Lair Osen wrote:Tippia wrote:Regan Rotineque wrote:what i dont understand is why you nerfed the freighters
could you not have left the stats the same and then built negative modifiers into the rigs? GǪthereby nerfing all capital ships rather than just balance freighters? Yeah, no. I think he means that the Rigs have inbuilt drawbacks already so why is an extra massive nerf needed? if that is what he means then i would like to point out that the penalties on rigs are small and can further be halved by skills. leaving the stats alone and just adding rigs slots is an absolute buff and power creep. Freighters dnt need buffs, and power creep is bad. penalties can be increased or skills not applied if necessary the point of my post is to try to actually give some choice to the ship owner the current model is to nerf everyone...increase the price of the ships as you have to buy rigs to get back what you had im saying leave me what i had and let ME chose what nerf I want
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6340
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:31:00 -
[802] - Quote
So, to everyone begging for a lowslot, have you actually considered the results of that?
The most likely mods to go there are a DC2, and a Cargo Expander 2. So for just one low slot you are paying for:
A ~24% cargo loss.
And a ~38% loss of tank.
For a single lowslot.
You would lose those things because, as Tippia mentioned, you have to account for both potential extremes in every potential case of what mod or rig might be fitted in there. They cannot under any circumstance be allowed to have more than a certain amount of cargo hold thanks to having to keep capitals out of highsec, and their tank can only be allowed to go so high.
So the more "options" you ask for, the more gets taken away overall by necessity. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Molic Blackbird
Orion Faction Industries Orion Consortium
130
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:34:00 -
[803] - Quote
Are Freighters and Jump Freighters also having their packaged volume increased to 1.3m m3? It would be nice to move freighters inside other freighters.
Will the maximum size of courier contracts be increased to meet the new maximum volume that freighters can carry?
Combining the two together would allow for courier contracts to be made for Freighters. |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Brothers of Tangra
23
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:35:00 -
[804] - Quote
Any Thoughts on the Racist Fuel inbalance on the jump freighters? putting them all on the same level will balance some of the drawbacks of the buffs the others get |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21926
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:35:00 -
[805] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:The ONLY people claiming I expected a net buff out of this is you and your kind. I expected them to set it up so that when you rigged and modded your freighter you could get it to exactly the same level of defense, maneuverability, capacity...etc...etc...etc as you do now. GǪand as has been explained on multiple occasions now (as in the past), you will never be able to do that because the amount of nerfs required to properly balance all fitting combinations would by far outnumber what you'd be able to compensate for with a limited fitting space.
Regan Rotineque wrote:what i find amuzing about your post is that i would bet How much?
Quote:you either dont own, or even fly a freighter As has been made abundantly clear by now, I've been against this idea since the first time I saw it come up. Would you like to take a stab at guessing why that is?
Quote:what i dont like is that they nerf the entire ship then force you to put back the parts you want. Tough. That's the only way to do it that doesn't cascade into a whole new set of problems that is far bigger than the tiny grievance you're having. Either you use the existing systems GÇö which are largely based on adding bonuses to a less capable hull GÇö or you invent a completely new one that is specific to this one ship class, which does the exact opposite by adding penalties to a capable one. Since the latter is simply not worth it, we get the former, and that means the freighter hulls have to be made less capable.
It's really as simple as that. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1531
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:36:00 -
[806] - Quote
Regan Rotineque wrote: CCP is fond of saying risk vs reward these changes are 100% risk and 0% reward since all the changes do is increase the value of a km by addi expensive rigs to it
Reward/Risk
Capacity / tank + speed tank / capacity + speed speed / capacity + tank EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21928
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:39:00 -
[807] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Regan Rotineque wrote: CCP is fond of saying risk vs reward these changes are 100% risk and 0% reward since all the changes do is increase the value of a km by addi expensive rigs to it Reward/Trade off Capacity / tank + speed tank / capacity + speed speed / capacity + tank GǪand, hell, with the final numbers I'm seeing once you apply skills and more sensible (i.e. less extremist) fits, you sometimes don't even have to put two of those factors in the risk column. Depending on the final outcome, I may even ha spotted a few where you get two of them on the reward side of the calculationGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Michael Mach
Nova Wolves RECURSIVE ASCENSION
14
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Posted - 2014.05.18 16:40:00 -
[808] - Quote
Eanna Heart wrote:Fozzie pls go.
"I want to encourage industry in nullsec."
"Let's make nullsec logistics more costly, difficult, and risky."
This. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
413
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:42:00 -
[809] - Quote
In fact what is wrong in making the JF's and freighters have a low module each and so we can use a DCU II, the rigs are just a big annoyance and add a huge cost to what are already expensive ships. The changes to cargo capacity while hurting me make hisec industry more viable against null sec when the refining changes hit so why not. Don't be a turd and follow the herd Instead be a Hero at Hub Zero |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1532
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:43:00 -
[810] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:In fact what is wrong in making the JF's and freighters have a low module each and so we can use a DCU II,
oh i dunno... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
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