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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Mag's
the united
17274
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Posted - 2014.05.18 19:12:00 -
[931] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:without trying to paint a bulls eye on my head, i intend to fit 3 cargo rigs on all my freighters. I expect the methods i use to keep myself safe now will continue to keep me safe. Jots that info down.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
53
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Posted - 2014.05.18 19:12:00 -
[932] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The average month sees around 30 to 40 ganks. Now, we dont work out the chance based on per pilot but per trip and we do not include people who made themselves a target by stuffing billions in the hold. There are millions of trips made by Freighters each and every month. Over the span of the last decade, taking into account the number of freighter trips made the numbers work out as being much lower than being struck by lightning. Granted you are still more likely to be ganked than win the lottery.
This is what you ignored.
I'm terribly sorry Mr. baltec1,
Statistics is an exact scientific branch of mathematics. You do not get to change your statements later, or add qualifications when convenient, just to try and squirm your way out of a pinch.
We are trying to determine whether your original statement regarding the chance of getting suicide ganked as a freighter pilot, as compared to being struck by lightening in real life, is true or false.
Now. Do you concede that freighter pilots in NPC corporations are being suicide ganked in HiSec, even with no cargo? Yes or no. This question seemed important to you, so I need an answer. Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EVE-oconomy and o-kay for you. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11642
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:15:00 -
[933] - Quote
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
Now. Do you concede that freighter pilots in NPC corporations are being suicide ganked in HiSec, even with no cargo? Yes or no. This question seemed important to you, so I need an answer.
Sure they do, its just very very rare. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Digger Pollard
Why So Platypus
4
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Posted - 2014.05.18 19:15:00 -
[934] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:So how do you explain its monumental rarity and how people can go through their entire account lives without being victims of (or even seeing) one? First, there is no rarity, just over-estimation of how many freighters actually pass per hour. I remember sitting for an hour on a Jita gate during a peak, gates were closed, and in an hour I've seen only about 30 or so freighters hanging there with me. Second, there are easier targets, namely T1 industrial ships people use to move stuff which doesn't require a freighter. I won't argue about those people being close or not to my dog, but as long as they exist, they just pay more isk/click(wanted to write "effort" but we're talking about ganking...) for gankers, and so they remain primary target. Third is gankers being simply too lazy. Why should they gank a freighter, which requires to multibox 7 accs, when they can multibox 2 catalysts and gank a miner instead? Ganking a miner is much easier than freighter, they are abundant, so if you just want easy tears, you go for them instead.
All in all, I am simply surprised how bad gankers are. They are crying to make freighters as easy to gank as miners, and it looks like they are succeeding. |
Dave Stark
5791
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:16:00 -
[935] - Quote
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:Statistics is an exact scientific branch of mathematics. I'm so glad about that. I'd absolutely hate to have ended up with a BA instead of a BSc. nobody likes art students. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1541
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:16:00 -
[936] - Quote
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
Statistics is an exact scientific branch of mathematics.
quoting, and if i have space, this will go in my sig. ur shame will last till the end of time. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9955
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:18:00 -
[937] - Quote
How about addressing the fact that freighter and especially JF pilots are more likely the least affected by such a change since they'll just pass the increased cost on to everybody else? "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21956
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Posted - 2014.05.18 19:19:00 -
[938] - Quote
Digger Pollard wrote:First, there is no rarity, just over-estimation of how many freighters actually pass per hour. Do you have any statistics to support this assertion?
Quote:Second, there are easier targets Third is gankers being simply too lazy. So you're saying that it's actually very rare.
Quote:They are crying to make freighters as easy to gank as miners, and it looks like they are succeeding. Do you have any examples of this actually happening? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9955
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:19:00 -
[939] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
Statistics is an exact scientific branch of mathematics.
quoting, and if i have space, this will go in my sig. ur shame will last till the end of time. Have you ever taken a course in statistics? Do you know what a significance test is? These things aren't open to interpretation any more so than any other branch of mathematics. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
606
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Posted - 2014.05.18 19:20:00 -
[940] - Quote
Digger Pollard wrote:First, there is no rarity, just over-estimation of how many freighters actually pass per hour. I remember sitting for an hour on a Jita gate during a peak, gates were closed, and in an hour I've seen only about 30 or so freighters hanging there with me.
And how many of those have been ganked?
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
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Mag's
the united
17275
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Posted - 2014.05.18 19:20:00 -
[941] - Quote
Repost. (For answers)Digger Pollard wrote:First, there is no rarity, just over-estimation of how many freighters actually pass per hour. Do you have any statistics to support this assertion?
Quote:Second, there are easier targets Third is gankers being simply too lazy. So you're saying that it's actually very rare.
Quote:They are crying to make freighters as easy to gank as miners, and it looks like they are succeeding. Do you have any examples of this actually happening?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1081
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:21:00 -
[942] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Digger Pollard wrote:First, there is no rarity, just over-estimation of how many freighters actually pass per hour. Do you have any statistics to support this assertion? Quote:Second, there are easier targets Third is gankers being simply too lazy. So you're saying that it's actually very rare. Quote:They are crying to make freighters as easy to gank as miners, and it looks like they are succeeding. Do you have any examples of this actually happening?
What he's saying is the gankers still kill most of the freighter while being too lazy to do it and hunting for barge/industrial ship more because they are easier targets. All in a day of work. |
Commander A9
The Scope Gallente Federation
604
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:22:00 -
[943] - Quote
Great.
So we're hauling less...
We're less protected...
And we have to spend millions to achieve what we can maintain already now after the changes are applied.
I hate these changes; hands down. It's already easy enough to take down a freighter through the use of multi-client software; now, with these changes, it's going to get even worse.
Again, if 'no votes nerf boats,' why is it I vote, and all my favorite boats keep getting nerfed anyway? Recommendations: -enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters) -add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot) -less focus on graphics, more on mechanics Tune in to NewEdenRadio.com for awesome music! |
Dave Stark
5791
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Posted - 2014.05.18 19:23:00 -
[944] - Quote
Commander A9 wrote:Again, if 'no votes nerf boats,' why is it I vote, and all my favorite boats keep getting nerfed anyway? this one's more a case of "stupid people kept asking for things, even though they were told this was going to happen". |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9955
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:24:00 -
[945] - Quote
Commander A9 wrote:It's already easy enough to take down a freighter through the use of multi-client software I seriously doubt this has happened more than maybe once or twice ever. It's certainly not common. Freighter ganking isn't easy even as a group effort among individual players. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Digger Pollard
Why So Platypus
4
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Posted - 2014.05.18 19:25:00 -
[946] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Commander A9 wrote:Again, if 'no votes nerf boats,' why is it I vote, and all my favorite boats keep getting nerfed anyway? this one's more a case of "stupid people kept asking for things, even though they were told this was going to happen".
More like "people were asking for obviously needed buffs and stupid people nerfed it instead". |
Dave Stark
5793
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:26:00 -
[947] - Quote
Digger Pollard wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Commander A9 wrote:Again, if 'no votes nerf boats,' why is it I vote, and all my favorite boats keep getting nerfed anyway? this one's more a case of "stupid people kept asking for things, even though they were told this was going to happen". More like "people were asking for obviously needed buffs and stupid people nerfed it instead".
no, people were told this would happen but kept insisting on this idiotic change. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1082
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:26:00 -
[948] - Quote
Digger Pollard wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Commander A9 wrote:Again, if 'no votes nerf boats,' why is it I vote, and all my favorite boats keep getting nerfed anyway? this one's more a case of "stupid people kept asking for things, even though they were told this was going to happen". More like "people were asking for obviously needed buffs and stupid people nerfed it instead".
Freighter didn't needed a buff. |
Retar Aveymone
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
374
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:27:00 -
[949] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: I'm seeing some good feedback about the unique role of Jump Freighters meaning that they don't get much benefit from rigs other than cargo rigs, and this is indeed a problem that limits player choice. I'm going to bring up a few ways to help solve that issue with the other designers early next week.
I do want to clarify that although it's very possible that a lot of these numbers can change, we're not going to simply give JFs a gigantic buff to their cargoholds and call it a day. The fast movement of goods across the galaxy has its advantages and also its disadvantages, and we are not going to simply let power creep get out of control in this area.
As a note: I completely get that you don't want to make JFs even more powerful. But without new types of rigs, there's no gameplay benefit to giving JFs rig slots - they'll just fit the required cargohold rigs and all you've really done is increase their price.
As a side note, I think the agility nerf is unneeded - there's never going to be a situation you fit for agility. And where jfs are aligning, they're almost always doing so in complete safety (a station docking ring, pos shields, etc) so an agility nerf is really just making flying them more unpleasant rather than doing much gameplay-wise. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6361
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:28:00 -
[950] - Quote
Digger Pollard wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Commander A9 wrote:Again, if 'no votes nerf boats,' why is it I vote, and all my favorite boats keep getting nerfed anyway? this one's more a case of "stupid people kept asking for things, even though they were told this was going to happen". More like "people were asking for obviously needed buffs and stupid people nerfed it instead".
No buffs were needed, that was just wishful thinking among those who thought CCP would ever support their dreams of them autopiloting through space with several billion isk in their cargohold.
Nerfs seemingly were needed, though. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1542
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:28:00 -
[951] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
Statistics is an exact scientific branch of mathematics.
quoting, and if i have space, this will go in my sig. ur shame will last till the end of time. Have you ever taken a course in statistics? Do you know what a significance test is? These things aren't open to interpretation any more so than any other branch of mathematics.
its the exact part.
data may be exact. however there is nothing exact about which data should be used or how it is gathered.
for example: baltec is using the amount of freighter trips as his population. vhelnik is using the amount of freighter pilots as his population.
both are correct, but they arent the same. which u use is ur opinion.
and there is nothing exact about a significance test either. in fact what should be used as a significance level is entirely open to OPINION, and even when a significance level suggests one thing or the other it is only a suggestion. it is entirely open to interpretation how we read data. Statistical analysis has inference written all over it.
yes i have taken courses in statistics. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9960
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:28:00 -
[952] - Quote
There were no buffs necessary, freighters and JFs were fine. The predominant effect of the nerf however will be the increase in prices for people living in remote areas of space. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
252
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:31:00 -
[953] - Quote
This is CCP saying people with one account are not wanted in EVE. It's cheaper to haul with 2x freighters now than it is with 1x with Rigs.
so plebs, please get out. Baddest poster ever |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9960
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:31:00 -
[954] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:and there is nothing exact about a significance test either. in fact what should be used as a significance level is entirely open to OPINION, and even when a significance level suggests one thing or the other it is only a suggestion. it is entirely open to interpretation. Uh no, when you do a significance test at the 90% level you're saying that you want to be 90% certain that your confidence interval contains the true population proportion, or that you want to be 90% certain that rejecting the null hypothesis is correct.
It's about probabilities, not interpretation. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21957
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:33:00 -
[955] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:This is CCP saying people with one account are not wanted in EVE. It's cheaper to haul with 2x freighters now than it is with 1x with Rigs. So your freighters cost less than 300M ISK? Can I a buy one five? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Jatok Reknar
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:35:00 -
[956] - Quote
You do have to factor in the concept of individual loss - rather than cumulative isk loss - when balancing risk vs reward for ganking imo. A well fitted catalyst costs what? Getting a group together, I can imagine is challenging and requires organizational skills. But an individual's sense of loss for losing his gank ship to CONCORD is minimal at best when compared to the owner of a freighter (which is supposed to be a capital ship), even if that owner isn't doing anything stupid like pack multiple billions in his freighter.
Though I think we digress. This change just feels rushed and not fully thought out. Hopefully CCP will keep refining it a bit more before.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1082
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:35:00 -
[957] - Quote
Tippia wrote:handige harrie wrote:This is CCP saying people with one account are not wanted in EVE. It's cheaper to haul with 2x freighters now than it is with 1x with Rigs. So your freighters cost less than 300M ISK? Can I a buy one five?
I guess it depends on which rigs you plan on using... |
Dave Stark
5793
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:36:00 -
[958] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:and there is nothing exact about a significance test either. in fact what should be used as a significance level is entirely open to OPINION, and even when a significance level suggests one thing or the other it is only a suggestion. it is entirely open to interpretation. Uh no, when you do a significance test at the 90% level you're saying that you want to be 90% certain that your confidence interval contains the true population proportion, or that you want to be 90% certain that rejecting the null hypothesis is correct. It's about probabilities, not interpretation. hate to be pedantic, but that's the definition of a credible interval. |
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:37:00 -
[959] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
Now. Do you concede that freighter pilots in NPC corporations are being suicide ganked in HiSec, even with no cargo? Yes or no. This question seemed important to you, so I need an answer.
Sure they do, its just very very rare. Excellent. We just need more than zero examples per year to proceed.
It is getting late here, so we will have to continue tomorrow, I'm afraid. Some light reading might be in order before then. I suggest the first few chapters of "Fundamentals of Statistical and Thermal Physics" by Federick Reif. McGraw-Hill (1985), ISBN 0-07085615-X. Despite the title the introductory chapters deals purely with the mathematical aspects of statistics without being too terse. Others may be able to suggest better alternatives.
Daichi Yamato wrote:Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
Statistics is an exact scientific branch of mathematics.
quoting, and if i have space, this will go in my sig. ur shame will last till the end of time.
I'm honored. You might consider using the above literature reference as well. Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EVE-oconomy and o-kay for you. |
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
34
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Posted - 2014.05.18 19:42:00 -
[960] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:the point of my post is to try to actually give some choice to the ship owner You have plenty of choice. The entire problem is that some people assumed all along that being given choice would itself come without a cost, but that was never going to happen GÇö choice itself is too valuable, and the full array of choices you can make have to fit in the overall balance of the game.
I dont ever think anyone assumed choice would come without a cost, I think most imagined that with the introduction of rigs we would have the opportunity to marginally increase cargo and tank ./ or speed, OR massively improve cargo OR tank. Please note the or. The main issue that is created with the current proposed set of changes is that there really isn't a middle ground. If i want to be able to move and ihub or 2 sov upgrades there is more or less only 1 way for me to really rig a freighter, that is hardly choice.
Coming into this thread I fully expected and embraced that there would be at least a marginal nerf in base hauling capacity to both the JF and Freightor, but the degree to which Fozzie nerfed them is amazing. Realistically, freighters were in dire need of a buff, as someone who has been bumped around madrimille for 15 minutes there is no way one can consider the current gank meta fair or balanced. Jump freighters were more or less fine as is and realistically didn't need any change, though having them being able to move 400k m3 would have been kind of nice just because of the aforementioned sov upgrades.
Some things that i think would make this more palatable. (not necessarily all, but pick and choose)
1. Give each races frieghtor / JF a defined role, before they each had some uniqueness, I feel like you have removed some of that as most of them have very similar capacity's now, especially the jfs. It would be cool if there was a reason to spec into multiple races of freightor and each race had a reason to use it above others for certain situations. I.E. Minmatar for speed, Amarr for tank, Caldari for Capacity. This somewhat exists already but it would be nice to see these more defined. This adds some more diversity to the high level logistics play.
2. 2 rigs slots on freightors 1 on jf's, Allow for some choice but make it so we can at least use the base model without having to make the investment into capital rigs i.e. throw away ihub freighters, I really don't want to be using a 3 bil isk freighter in nullsec to get things done.
3. Some agility or warp speed increase, i'm not talking anything massive, but it is hard to resist autopiloting sometime as this is the most boring thing in the game. Your either going to live or your going to die on any given trip, there is little you can do (aside from cargo selection) that is going going to change that.
Do remember that you are already effectively nerfing JF;s with the jump fuel consumption changes, im not seeing why they need additional nerfs. Nor do I see how JF's were contributing to power creep as since empire is central, and jfs move goods from the central location empire to the war front, not matter which front your fighting on HS is usually about the same distance away for both sides. Living in Deep null, it is already pretty expensive to move out to null and back, a 50% increase in cost is going to make a big difference in cost for those of us that are 5 jumps deep. |
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