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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Azami Nevinyrall
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1897
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 21:50:00 -
[1021] - Quote
Besides the nerf to cargo size and Capital packaged size.
I do not understand the need for any of this!
Keep the rest as they are now, there's nothing wrong with making it harder to gank freighters.
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind these changes! I hope everyone voted in the CSM elections! Thank you to those who actually supported my campaign! Even if I don't get elected in, I hope that the CSM that do, and Devs actually use my ideas somewhere! |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
518
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 21:51:00 -
[1022] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Besides the nerf to cargo size and Capital packaged size.
I do not understand the need for any of this!
Keep the rest as they are now, there's nothing wrong with making it harder to gank freighters.
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind these changes!
Generation Angry Bird and Farmville. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9965
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 21:53:00 -
[1023] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:fair enough WP. so ill point out where u urself explained where the risk is. Walter Hart White wrote: If 300m drops, you are neutral. If anything more, you are in profit. this is risk. u guys may put in the effort to increase the chances of getting a kill and making money. but its not something u can deliver with 100% certainty. This is widely understood, and why assumed u weren't being truthful. sorry This is not a risk. Who cares about the drop when you gank? You are ISK-efficient regardless on the killboards. The drop is only icing on top of the already delicious cake. Who cares about ISK efficiency? That's entirely not the point. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
29
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 21:54:00 -
[1024] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Besides the nerf to cargo size and Capital packaged size.
I do not understand the need for any of this!
Keep the rest as they are now, there's nothing wrong with making it harder to gank freighters.
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind these changes! Actually there is nothing wrong with this. Freighters getting buff would be awesome. Ganking them will feel more like something wroth doing and fun unlike now. There will be plenty of pinatas that will antitank and carry huge cargo, so they will neft themselves. Keep them the same they are now and add rig slots. Everything is fixed. People who fit hull upgrades, lose cargo. People who fit cargo, lose hull. People who fit agility, lose hull. People who do not fit anything (and that should be a god damn option too), lose nothing but gain nothing. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21967
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 21:55:00 -
[1025] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:This is not a risk. Who cares about the drop when you gank? The professional gankers.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
123
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:00:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:This is not a risk. Who cares about the drop when you gank? The professional gankers. Walter Hart White wrote:People who fit hull upgrades, lose cargo. People who fit cargo, lose hull. People who fit agility, lose hull. They lose armour, not hull. You're thinking about expander modules, and I have seen no mention of them moving that over to the rigs. That detail makes this whole change far easier to compensate for.
The risk is still zero since all you have to do is ship scan the freighter 3 or 4 times. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1544
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:00:00 -
[1027] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:fair enough WP. so ill point out where u urself explained where the risk is. Walter Hart White wrote: If 300m drops, you are neutral. If anything more, you are in profit. this is risk. u guys may put in the effort to increase the chances of getting a kill and making money. but its not something u can deliver with 100% certainty. This is widely understood, and why assumed u weren't being truthful. sorry This is not a risk. Who cares about the drop when you gank? You are ISK-efficient regardless on the killboards. The drop is only icing on top of the already delicious cake.
even the kill itself is not a certainty.
what if the freighter pilot uses webs as this guy pointed out.
If ur measuring the chances of a successful gank from after the point a freighters been bumped, ill admit, the chances of escape are almost 0 (which is why i say dnt get bumped). but even the turrets catalysts and talos's use work on a random number generator. fingers crossed... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21968
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:01:00 -
[1028] - Quote
Allison A'vani wrote:The risk is still zero since all you have to do is ship scan the freighter 3 or 4 times. No. The only way for the risk to be zero is for all probabilities and all outcomes to be zero. They're not. There are simply far too many GÇ£ifGÇ¥s and far too many RNG rolls involved. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
123
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:02:00 -
[1029] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:fair enough WP. so ill point out where u urself explained where the risk is. Walter Hart White wrote: If 300m drops, you are neutral. If anything more, you are in profit. this is risk. u guys may put in the effort to increase the chances of getting a kill and making money. but its not something u can deliver with 100% certainty. This is widely understood, and why assumed u weren't being truthful. sorry This is not a risk. Who cares about the drop when you gank? You are ISK-efficient regardless on the killboards. The drop is only icing on top of the already delicious cake. even the kill itself is not a certainty. what if the freighter pilot uses webs as this guy pointed out. If ur measuring the chances of a successful gank from after the point a freighters been bumped, ill admit, the chances of escape are almost 0 (which is why i say dnt get bumped). but even the turrets catalysts and talos's use work on a random number generator. fingers crossed...
Who cares if they use webs, just fit one of the 15 dessys with a single point. |
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
29
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:02:00 -
[1030] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:fair enough WP. so ill point out where u urself explained where the risk is. Walter Hart White wrote: If 300m drops, you are neutral. If anything more, you are in profit. this is risk. u guys may put in the effort to increase the chances of getting a kill and making money. but its not something u can deliver with 100% certainty. This is widely understood, and why assumed u weren't being truthful. sorry This is not a risk. Who cares about the drop when you gank? You are ISK-efficient regardless on the killboards. The drop is only icing on top of the already delicious cake. even the kill itself is not a certainty. what if the freighter pilot uses webs as this guy pointed out. If ur measuring the chances of a successful gank from after the point a freighters been bumped, ill admit, the chances of escape are almost 0 (which is why i say dnt get bumped). but even the turrets catalysts and talos's use work on a random number generator. fingers crossed... As far as I know, even webber can be foiled. Of course chancesare stacked for the webber, but one bad spawn you are screwed :) |
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Angelina Duvolle
Homeworld Technologies
33
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:03:00 -
[1031] - Quote
As much as I dislike these changes, anyone making threats is to put it bluntly, lacking in intelligence.
Now, many people here keep saying that the object of these nerfs are aimed at helping decentralize the Jita market. I previously haven never even bought into the notion that CCP even wants to push people into regionalized markets because it seemed trivial to make that happen, but have seen it referred to now so many times I'd like to ask if it really is.
It seems daft to me to penalize the delivery men to counteract what ccp has basically enabled and in fact built their infrastructure around. (going so far as to add dedicated hardware for Jita)
Here is an explanation of why it would be silly to expect changes to freighters to have any effect at all on the market.
Many of the people hauling things to Jita, are simply providing a service, to the people who want to sell their wares and or buy their wares in a centralized location. They may not be a "Frog" or working via courier contracts, heck they may just be moving stuff for their friends/corp mates, but they are doing it at the behest of some person wanting to buy or sell something. They do this in Jita, because of one thing, volume. If Joe Player makes 20 cruisers a month via invention and a few thousand modules, he might just sell his stuff in Amarr. If Joe Player makes 1200 t2 ships, and 15000 t2 mods, along with ammo, drones etc etc, their is only one place that has the volume to move that amount of product. Yes they could stick that stuff on the market in Amarr, but not enough would sell to warrant that level of production for long. Now he might be able to undercut Jita prices by a substantial amount to encourage resellers, however this is not fixing an issue, it is just post-poning it, as the reseller will need to freight all the stuff to, you guessed it, Jita.
Making the game harder for the "truck driver" won't change this. The person needing to buy/sell the item in Jita, is not going to care one bit that the "truck driver" had to buy some rigs, and take additional time, endure additional boredom, to make that trip. It doesn't matter to them. The only way to encourage sellers to sell their stuff in a different location is to make sure it is financially viable for them to do so.
If you want to decentralize the Jita market, it is very simple. You do what "countries, Cities, Towns, malls, mom and pop stores etc do, you provide an incentive for people to both buy and sell their good in your location.
Jack the sales tax in Jita. Like a lot. Tie the tax to volume in fact. The old market hub in Oursalert for example, perhaps they would like a return to market relevance, so they offer capsuleers a reduced sales tax, and sellers decreased broker fees.. This is how you move the people out of Jita, and back to Ours, Amarr, and dare I say it, maybe even Yulai? (That only makes sense if you are very old)
If you make it substantially cheaper to buy and sell items in regional centers, people WILL move. If you just penalize the freighter pilot, nothing changes, except they have less fun. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6363
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:03:00 -
[1032] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Allison A'vani wrote:The risk is still zero since all you have to do is ship scan the freighter 3 or 4 times. No. The only way for the risk to be zero is for all probabilities and all outcomes to be zero. They're not. There are simply far too many GÇ£ifGÇ¥s involved.
And when there's even one, the risk is not zero.
And we all know the loot fairy exists, even the fake ganker. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
123
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:06:00 -
[1033] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Allison A'vani wrote:The risk is still zero since all you have to do is ship scan the freighter 3 or 4 times. No. The only way for the risk to be zero is for all probabilities and all outcomes to be zero. They're not. There are simply far too many GÇ£ifGÇ¥s and far too many RNG rolls involved.
Look at that politician speak. There is zero risk involved, you have an alt with a passive targeter and a ship scanner. If the target is carrying more than 300m then you have an extremely high success rate of profit. If the loot is all destroyed, then who cares. You get a multibillion isk kill for your own investment of 15m. This isn't rocket science, it is pretty simple probability. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
519
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:07:00 -
[1034] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:even the kill itself is not a certainty. what if the freighter pilot uses webs as this guy pointed out. If ur measuring the chances of a successful gank from after the point a freighters been bumped, ill admit, the chances of escape are almost 0 (which is why i say dnt get bumped). but even the turrets catalysts and talos's use work on a random number generator. fingers crossed...
Yeah, sure, webbing helps a whole lot. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21971
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:07:00 -
[1035] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tippia wrote:Allison A'vani wrote:The risk is still zero since all you have to do is ship scan the freighter 3 or 4 times. No. The only way for the risk to be zero is for all probabilities and all outcomes to be zero. They're not. There are simply far too many GÇ£ifGÇ¥s involved. And when there's even one, the risk is not zero. And we all know the loot fairy exists, even the fake ganker. The main point of confusion seems to be the perception that, just because you can hedge and mitigate your risks, they don't exist. That's where the logic goes off the tracks. The fact that you can (and have to) hedge and mitigate them is precisely because the risks exist and you want to reduce them as much as possible.
Short of injecting code into TQ, that mitigation and hedging will not make the risks go away. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
124
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:09:00 -
[1036] - Quote
This is all besides the fact that most who gank freighters for profit, like freight club, get the initial tackle with a suicide tackle alt and log in their mains who have a war declared against the target, so they only lose 1 or 2 cheep tackle frigs. Those who do it for lolz are the ones who use catalysts. Lolz > profit and they don't really care about the drop either way. |
DarkMoth
Xoth Inc Usurper.
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:10:00 -
[1037] - Quote
i might as well sell mine, better of using a rorq to jump stuff around yo.. why even lose the cargo capacity period.. they dont haul enough as it is for the prices for them.. you need to revisit this plain and simple |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21971
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:10:00 -
[1038] - Quote
Allison A'vani wrote:Look at that politician speak. There is zero risk involved That is indeed pure politician speak you're providing: you're ignoring the facts and definitions and data and altering them all to fit your narrative. The fact remains, the risks are not zero. You accidentally prove this byGǪQuote:you have an alt with a passive targeter and a ship scanner. If [yadda yadda] GǪhaving to do all this stuff just to mitigate those risks. You can't get rid of them. You can just choose to gamble on better odds. The risk is not gone.
Quote:This isn't rocket science, it is pretty simple probability. GǪand as long as that probability Gëá 0 (which it never ever is, so don't even bother lying about it) there is risk. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
124
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:11:00 -
[1039] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Allison A'vani wrote:Look at that politician speak. There is zero risk involved That is indeed pure politician speak you're providing: you're ignoring the facts and the data and altering to fit your narrative. The fact remains, the risks are not zero. You prove this byGǪ Quote:you have an alt with a passive targeter and a ship scanner. If GǪhaving to do all this stuff just to mitigate those risks. You can't get rid of them. You can just choose to gamble on better odds. The risk is not gone. Quote:This isn't rocket science, it is pretty simple probability. GǪand as long as that probability Gëá 0 (which it never ever is, so don't even bother lying about it) there is risk.
If you read my last post, you will see how insignificant the risk really is. Loot fairy means nothing when you have a war dec up.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21971
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:12:00 -
[1040] - Quote
Allison A'vani wrote:If you read my last post, you will see how insignificant the risk really is. You mean, not zero. Oh, and idiots losing valuable ships to wardecs isn't the kind of ganking people are talking about.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Lyn Fel
Black Frog Logistics Red-Frog
40
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Posted - 2014.05.18 22:13:00 -
[1041] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:fair enough WP. so ill point out where u urself explained where the risk is. Walter Hart White wrote: If 300m drops, you are neutral. If anything more, you are in profit. this is risk. u guys may put in the effort to increase the chances of getting a kill and making money. but its not something u can deliver with 100% certainty. This is widely understood, and why assumed u weren't being truthful. sorry This is not a risk. Who cares about the drop when you gank? You are ISK-efficient regardless on the killboards. The drop is only icing on top of the already delicious cake. even the kill itself is not a certainty. what if the freighter pilot uses webs as this guy pointed out. If ur measuring the chances of a successful gank from after the point a freighters been bumped, ill admit, the chances of escape are almost 0 (which is why i say dnt get bumped). but even the turrets catalysts and talos's use work on a random number generator. fingers crossed...
A single mach can keep a webbed freighter from warping with bumping only. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6363
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:13:00 -
[1042] - Quote
Allison A'vani wrote: zero risk involved ...*snip*... then you have an extremely high success rate
"extremely high success rate" does not equal "zero risk".
That's pretty simple probability. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9965
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:14:00 -
[1043] - Quote
Bringing wardecs into this discussion? You do realize that no amount of tank is going to help you in that event, right?
I mean you could literally fly your empty freighter in 1.0 space and give it 20 million EHP and people would still kill it because they could. It's not like it could fight back, it would just take longer. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
125
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:17:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Allison A'vani wrote:If you read my last post, you will see how insignificant the risk really is. You mean, not zero. Oh, and idiots losing valuable ships to wardecs isn't the kind of ganking people are talking about.
OOOhhhh... I'm sorry Mr. Lawyer dicing my words, let me be more specific. The risk is the limit of X as X approaches the axis. A extremely infinitesimally small nonzero value. 5m in tackle frigs is literally the penny that I threw away on the side walk so that it wasn't weighing down my pocket.
Even then, catalyst ganking done over a large period of time still will net a profit. Regardless of any "risk," involved. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6364
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:18:00 -
[1045] - Quote
We're not talking about mental deficients who fly freighters under a wardec.
The entire conversation, which is itself a derailling of the thread, was about suicide ganking. You're just derailing further, and making a huge ass of yourself into the bargain. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
125
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:19:00 -
[1046] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Bringing wardecs into this discussion? You do realize that no amount of tank is going to help you in that event, right?
I mean you could literally fly your empty freighter in 1.0 space and give it 20 million EHP and people would still kill it because they could. It's not like it could fight back, it would just take longer.
This is why in every one of my post actually arguing about the changes I have only cared about agility and cargo size. Tank really means nothing. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21972
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:20:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Allison A'vani wrote:The risk is the limit of X as X approaches the axis. Not that either.
Quote:Even then, catalyst ganking done over a large period of time still will net a profit. Good. That means the game is working properly and that it is possible to take make a living off of the stupidity and mistakes of other players.
Quote:This is why in every one of my post actually arguing about the changes I have only cared about agility and cargo size. Tank really means nothing. Neither does agility or cargo size at that point. No ship stat counteracts decision-making failures. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1544
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:26:00 -
[1048] - Quote
Lyn Fel wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:fair enough WP. so ill point out where u urself explained where the risk is. Walter Hart White wrote: If 300m drops, you are neutral. If anything more, you are in profit. this is risk. u guys may put in the effort to increase the chances of getting a kill and making money. but its not something u can deliver with 100% certainty. This is widely understood, and why assumed u weren't being truthful. sorry This is not a risk. Who cares about the drop when you gank? You are ISK-efficient regardless on the killboards. The drop is only icing on top of the already delicious cake. even the kill itself is not a certainty. what if the freighter pilot uses webs as this guy pointed out. If ur measuring the chances of a successful gank from after the point a freighters been bumped, ill admit, the chances of escape are almost 0 (which is why i say dnt get bumped). but even the turrets catalysts and talos's use work on a random number generator. fingers crossed... A single mach can keep a webbed freighter from warping with bumping only.
i bolded the part i think u missed
the uncertainty lies in whether the webber can make a lock before the freighter is bumped. i mean u could have 20 dare devils all jump through with the freighter to give them a good spread, then give them dual faction webs for longer ranged insta warping.
the only certainty is that nothing is certain. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Lithorn
The Dark Tribe
26
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 22:46:00 -
[1049] - Quote
I had trained for these ships (jump freighters) but now the changes being made have certainly made up my mind as to whether I will ever buy them, decidedly no. Compared to this, other capital ships with some hauling capability are a far better trade-off for most tasks, especially now after these proposed changes. Better fuel usage, better jump range, better price. |
Beofryn Sedorak
84
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 23:14:00 -
[1050] - Quote
Maybe the riggable freighters need to be a new set of ships in addition to the ones we have now.... A new t2 variant maybe?
This would allow people to continue using their ship exactly the way they've been using them, or train up for the riggable one with more choices as to how to fit/fly it and would also justify less of a nerf to it's stats overall. |
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