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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
649
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Posted - 2014.05.21 20:44:00 -
[2191] - Quote
Stop asking for DCU. It's a terrible idea. There is a reason they have restrictive fittings. DCU has no drawbacks other than not having a 3rd slot for cargo. |
Valterra Craven
249
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Posted - 2014.05.21 20:44:00 -
[2192] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Also, has anyone run the numbers for what the new baseline is for cargo cost?
Aka if you run with no low slots how much value can you stuff before you get ganked? Granted, this is napkin math since I'm at work. No lowslots is about 900 mil. Triple bulkheads turns into about 2.4 billion. Man,I just realized how many combos there are that could affect this. Lol now we need a tool to determine cargo value based on fit! 1 expander 1 bulkhead, and 1 adaptive nano plating?
Seems like moving around ice isotopes without getting ganked is going to be a real pain. |
Dave Stark
5965
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 20:50:00 -
[2193] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Stop asking for DCU. It's a terrible idea. There is a reason they have restrictive fittings. DCU has no drawbacks other than not having a 3rd slot for cargo. and provides an absurd ehp buff. |
Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
194
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Posted - 2014.05.21 20:53:00 -
[2194] - Quote
If it wasn't obvious that the anemic CPU output was specifically to prevent you from putting a DCU on your Freighter then I don't know what to tell you. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1090
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Posted - 2014.05.21 20:56:00 -
[2195] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Also, has anyone run the numbers for what the new baseline is for cargo cost?
Aka if you run with no low slots how much value can you stuff before you get ganked? Granted, this is napkin math since I'm at work. No lowslots is about 900 mil. Triple bulkheads turns into about 2.4 billion.
How about the full cargo failwhale? They should be rare but we all know they will happen. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1090
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 20:58:00 -
[2196] - Quote
Cekle Skyscales wrote:Change the bulkheads cpu bonus to a damage control cpu bonus.
NO unless it also completely prevent you from warping so you have to slowboat gate to gate. |
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:03:00 -
[2197] - Quote
The base cargo capacity of Freighters is being decreased so that a set of three Tech Two Expanded Cargoholds adds 21-25% cargo above the previous maximum values. For Jump Freighters, three T2 Expanders will increase cargo capacity by 1-2%.
That change still confuses me. I don't use either frighters or JF but it seems stupid to nerf the T2 version in this way. The way this reads regular freighters get up to 21-25% boost while JFs get next to nothing over what they were before this change. Yes they have more choice now, but it gives little reason for cargo capacity to be one of those choices as it doesn't boost it all that much beyond what it used to have.
That means either all cargo expanders or a severely gimped cargo hold. You might as well out right mention that you are nerfing JF rather then trying to disguise it in this manner. |
Igor Wodkowicz
Fast Animals Slow Children
2
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:05:00 -
[2198] - Quote
Roll back all tank changes, take a bit of structure away, and then make role bonus something like '75% reduction in Expanded Cargohold structure amount penalty' or something like that - that could be interesting one |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
844
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:07:00 -
[2199] - Quote
Why the special case for reinforced bulkheads over just making bulkheads some 0-1 for fitting?
I wonder if nanos mean I still need a web alt or can be bumped so easy... |
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
33
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:08:00 -
[2200] - Quote
Lyra Gerie wrote:The base cargo capacity of Freighters is being decreased so that a set of three Tech Two Expanded Cargoholds adds 21-25% cargo above the previous maximum values. For Jump Freighters, three T2 Expanders will increase cargo capacity by 1-2%.
That change still confuses me. I don't use either frighters or JF but it seems stupid to nerf the T2 version in this way. The way this reads regular freighters get up to 21-25% boost while JFs get next to nothing over what they were before this change. Yes they have more choice now, but it gives little reason for cargo capacity to be one of those choices as it doesn't boost it all that much beyond what it used to have.
That means either all cargo expanders or a severely gimped cargo hold. You might as well out right mention that you are nerfing JF rather then trying to disguise it in this manner. JFs are getting huge ehp boost though. Way more than freighters, so I think it's balanced. |
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777 Tsuruomo
Final Ascension
0
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:14:00 -
[2201] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Also, has anyone run the numbers for what the new baseline is for cargo cost?
Aka if you run with no low slots how much value can you stuff before you get ganked? Granted, this is napkin math since I'm at work. No lowslots is about 900 mil. Triple bulkheads turns into about 2.4 billion. Man,I just realized how many combos there are that could affect this. Lol now we need a tool to determine cargo value based on fit! 1 expander 1 bulkhead, and 1 adaptive nano plating?
Max armor resists on lets say a Anshar with some Deadspace resistance plating (2 adaptive, 1 explosive ~210 M) is an average of 72.15% without boosts. 90k raw armor puts armor EHP 323k
With boosts (travel for webs?) average resists become 75.475% = 422k armor ehp... all without 'sacrificing' cargo space.
even without boosts, it seem is considerably higher (323k armor + 247k hull + 47k shields = 617k ehp) without sacrificing cargo.
T2 fit is 62.625% average armor resist so.. 240k+247k + 47k shields which is 534k which is a slight decrease from 3 bulkheads but you still have the cargo.
I feel like my math is off somewhere as it seems a bit high, but I've been up 24 hours so hopefully someone a bit more alert then me will verify. |
Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
104
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:15:00 -
[2202] - Quote
Tippia wrote:They're changing it: GÇ£We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty. The agility penalty will remain intact at this time.GÇ¥.
Well boo. |
Antihrist Pripravnik
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
268
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:15:00 -
[2203] - Quote
Thank you CCP Fozzie and ship balancing team
Low slots are far better solution than rigs and provides additional gameplay and planning options. The numbers looks OK so far (I admit I've only looked at Freighters/JFs I could fly). I'm so glad that you got away from the rig approach, since it's kind of a permanent fit rather than having options. My signature got stolen (o.0) |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
372
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:17:00 -
[2204] - Quote
2nd iteration is gr8. |
Ramona Quimby
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:17:00 -
[2205] - Quote
These modified changes are better, but STILL freighters needs more EHP, and maybe across the board warp/align speeds buffs (but feel free to nerf sub-warp speed to make ganking autopiloters even easier, they deserve to be prey).
Now, eat crow gankers, all you who were saying if freighters were given rigs then everyone would be sorry because it would be a nerf. That was just whining gankers trying to control the narrative to prevent freighters from being rebalanced to reflect DPS increases and thus ease of ganking. But, gankers are really a tiny, but very loud, minority, Eve could frankly do without you, it can't do with the carebears. So rigs announced as straight buff, gankers whine, rigs changed to nerfs, haulers and industrials unsub in mass, CCP realizes who really matters, freighters get low slots, ganker tears ensue and we get to tell them their own motto HTFU or GTFO.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22123
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:17:00 -
[2206] - Quote
777 Tsuruomo wrote:Max armor resists on lets say a Anshar with some Deadspace resistance plating (2 adaptive, 1 explosive ~210 M) Yes, let's turn a ship that's normally targeted for its cargo into a loot pi+¦ata with its fittings aloneGǪ
Oh, wait. i forget. These are freighter pilots we're talking about. They're really going to do that, aren't they?
Ramona Quimby wrote:These modified changes are better, but STILL freighters needs more EHP, and maybe across the board warp/align speeds buffs (but feel free to nerf sub-warp speed to make ganking autopiloters even easier, they deserve to be prey). No, they really don't. In fact, it's fairly likely at this point that their EHP numbers will be dialled back to more sensible numbers.
Quote:Now, eat crow gankers, all you who were saying if freighters were given rigs then everyone would be sorry because it would be a nerf. GǪand guess what? It was, and they were. Did you miss the first 90 pages of this thread? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Dave Stark
5966
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:20:00 -
[2207] - Quote
Ramona Quimby wrote:all you who were saying if freighters were given rigs then everyone would be sorry because it would be a nerf. not sure if you noticed; but they did get a nerf. that's why there were 60 pages of whining, and ccp had to change it for low slots. |
777 Tsuruomo
Final Ascension
0
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:24:00 -
[2208] - Quote
Tippia wrote:777 Tsuruomo wrote:Max armor resists on lets say a Anshar with some Deadspace resistance plating (2 adaptive, 1 explosive ~210 M) Yes, let's turn a ship that's normally targeted for its cargo into a loot pi+¦ata with its fittings aloneGǪ Oh, wait. i forget. These are freighter pilots we're talking about. They're really going to do that, aren't they? Ramona Quimby wrote:These modified changes are better, but STILL freighters needs more EHP, and maybe across the board warp/align speeds buffs (but feel free to nerf sub-warp speed to make ganking autopiloters even easier, they deserve to be prey). No, they really don't. In fact, it's fairly likely at this point that their EHP numbers will be dialled back to more sensible numbers. Quote:Now, eat crow gankers, all you who were saying if freighters were given rigs then everyone would be sorry because it would be a nerf. GǪand guess what? It was, and they were. Did you miss the first 90 pages of this thread?
heh, went off a bit of a tangent and then realized I was looking at the wrong column for the ehp and 3 bulk heads... sleep time |
vikari
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
79
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:27:00 -
[2209] - Quote
You are still nerfing the hell out of JFs....
over 5 seconds gained in alignment for every JF type, over 6 for most. You know with all 3 low slots being cargo expanders and that giving only 1-2% increase in cargo, you are forcing JFs to fit cargo expanders. It's to expensive to fly them, not too. So exactly how are we going to make up for the loss alignment time? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22124
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 21:29:00 -
[2210] - Quote
vikari wrote:You are still nerfing the hell out of JFs....
over 5 seconds gained in alignment for every JF type, over 6 for most. You know with all 3 low slots being cargo expanders and that giving only 1-2% increase in cargo, you are forcing JFs to fit cargo expanders. It's to expensive to fly them, not too. So exactly how are we going to make up for the loss alignment time? Reduce the alignment time; reduce warp time; reduce fuel costs. Make up for lost cargo by making more runs faster and at much lower costs. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
34
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:29:00 -
[2211] - Quote
vikari wrote:You are still nerfing the hell out of JFs....
over 5 seconds gained in alignment for every JF type, over 6 for most. You know with all 3 low slots being cargo expanders and that giving only 1-2% increase in cargo, you are forcing JFs to fit cargo expanders. It's to expensive to fly them, not too. So exactly how are we going to make up for the loss alignment time? Huge EHP buff. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2672
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 21:30:00 -
[2212] - Quote
Am I the only one who's sad at the powergrid and CPU given to these ships? Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
34
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:31:00 -
[2213] - Quote
Tippia wrote:vikari wrote:You are still nerfing the hell out of JFs....
over 5 seconds gained in alignment for every JF type, over 6 for most. You know with all 3 low slots being cargo expanders and that giving only 1-2% increase in cargo, you are forcing JFs to fit cargo expanders. It's to expensive to fly them, not too. So exactly how are we going to make up for the loss alignment time? Reduce the alignment time; reduce warp time; reduce fuel costs. Make up for lost cargo by making more runs faster and at much lower costs. Holy..... ****? Tippia actually siding with JF pilots? Now I can die happily, I have seen it all... |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
1046
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:31:00 -
[2214] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:You can forget about ganking anshars alltogether 670k+ ehp. They can still carry well over 100k m3 at that ehp. That person has made the decision to fly a bomb shelter at the expense of pretty much every other consideration. For ~7 billion ISK, they should get a pretty good bomb shelter. They'll still die if caught, it'll just take a damnably long time to kill them. Put another way, I'm not sure that many jump freighter pilots are going to put up with the extra hassle of a mere 100km3 cargohold just to have a hilariously redundant tank. They're already used to taking measures to avoid getting caught, so they'll fit to the assumption that they're unlikely to get caught.
Jita to null home= undock , jump dock. deliver cargo of pvp ships Null to Jita is cargo of exploration loot , jump to Lsec and jump high, gate to gate to jita with low volume high value cargo. Guess which way is cargo and which way tank? Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Craven More
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:32:00 -
[2215] - Quote
Grenn Putubi wrote: I was fine with them getting rig slots because it would allow all the freighters to still compete on an even field, but giving low slots and no mids really changes the balance. If you're going to start giving the freighters module slots then you need to actually give them all slots they can use effectively.
Shield tank freighters should get at least 1 mid slot and 1 less low slot, then adjust their cargo holds so that they have greater base cargo space and end up competitive with the armor freighters using 3 cargo expanders while using only 2.
I understand your idea behind wanting to give shield tankers a mid slot, but lets be honest, it would not really achieve anything & I'd be curious to see, how many people would fore go using it for invul field & instead use it for micro warp drive instead ?. |
Ramona Quimby
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:33:00 -
[2216] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Ramona Quimby wrote:all you who were saying if freighters were given rigs then everyone would be sorry because it would be a nerf. not sure if you noticed; but they did get a nerf. that's why there were 60 pages of whining, and ccp had to change it for low slots.
Not sure if you noticed; but they didn't get a nerf at first. Rigs were a straight buff, with only sub-warp speed drawbacks, then you and all you the other fail easymode gankers whined, Fozzie made the mistake of listening to you, this thread ensued because the bear was poked. |
Regan Rotineque
Arch Angels Assault Force The Kadeshi
335
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:34:00 -
[2217] - Quote
thank you
this provides a much more flexible and affordable option to fitting
in addition the player has much more choice in terms of deciding how much nerf vs tank vs speed they want and the ability to change it as their needs change without having to drop billions on rigs
there is only one small issue with the freighters and others have mentioned it - that the armour freighters end up at the higher end of the spectrum in terms of ehp than the two that have more shield. Although it might not seem like much, anyone who can so the math is going to recommend that you choose to train the armour versions vs the shield variants. Every bit of protection and advantage helps.
i suspect that over time we will end up with two heavily used freighter types and two used less
that being said its minor - overall the approach is much better than the previous iteration, ty CSM and Fozzie |
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
34
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:34:00 -
[2218] - Quote
Craven More wrote:Grenn Putubi wrote: I was fine with them getting rig slots because it would allow all the freighters to still compete on an even field, but giving low slots and no mids really changes the balance. If you're going to start giving the freighters module slots then you need to actually give them all slots they can use effectively.
Shield tank freighters should get at least 1 mid slot and 1 less low slot, then adjust their cargo holds so that they have greater base cargo space and end up competitive with the armor freighters using 3 cargo expanders while using only 2.
I understand your idea behind wanting to give shield tankers a mid slot, but lets be honest, it would not really achieve anything & I'd be curious to see, how many people would fore go using it for invul field & instead use it for micro warp drive instead ?. Easily fixed. All those modules require powergrid and cpu. Make freighters have 100% CPU & powergrid costs of adv. invul. field (and it's derivatives). |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
639
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:35:00 -
[2219] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:What you're asking for is to have new players handcuffed by pricetags just because your entitlement tells you that you should never have to die.
Pathetic.
I don't think that's what I asked for, no. What I in fact asked for was the effort required to kill one of these things in high sec, or anywhere come to think of it, better reflect the amount it actually costs and the fact that it's a prestige item that only Supers and Titans are able to beat in terms of cost.
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
650
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Posted - 2014.05.21 21:43:00 -
[2220] - Quote
I think fozzie needs to update OP to reflect why there's not enough fittings for a DCU. Every tenth post keeps asking for one without reading other replies. |
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