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Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
I ask this openly and propose that they are changed to do so.
Firstly these stats are based on a brand new character training the bare minimum skills to fly the hulls with t2 equipment.
To fly an interceptor it takes a mere 47 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.
To fly a a nullied tengu it takes 99 days from first sub to flying a t2 fit.
To fly a hictor with a t2 bubble its takes a 143 days.
A decent fit hictor is generally over 300m which is on par with a t2 fit tech 3 cruiser. On its own a hictor cannot kill a ceptor unless it can instalock and scram it. Against a t3 unless its DPS fit, which would take away from most hictor fits it would be more than a fair fight. All that said hictors arent solo, they bring friends.
Discuss. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
132
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Something I've wondered about as well.
Now, if it becomes a T2 thing, should T2 mobile warp disruptors get the same buff? Personally, I don't think they should since it is a deployable and passive. Someone flying a heavy interdictor with T2 disruptors, on the other hand, perhaps should get a bonus allowing them to disrupt nullified ships with their bubbles.
Most likely it could be done via a script so that the bubble effects nullified ships while no longer effecting non-nullified ships. |
Raphael Celestine
Celestine Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Why don't they?
Because the interdiction-nullifier mechanic is specifically intended as a counter to the area-of-effect warp disruption mechanic. If you want to catch a nullified ship, you need to use a targeted warp jammer - that is the whole point of the mechanic. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 01:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Raphael Celestine wrote:Why don't they?
Because the interdiction-nullifier mechanic is specifically intended as a counter to the area-of-effect warp disruption mechanic. If you want to catch a nullified ship, you need to use a targeted warp jammer - that is the whole point of the mechanic.
Ok, I am going to go out on a limb and say the space you live in isn't 0.0, and thus haven't experienced roving gangs of ceptors which traverse your space with relative impunity. Also this game is big on checks and balances, even with the recent changes its still damn near impossible to catch interceptors and cloaky t3's.
Allowing a T2 bubble generator to catch interdiction nullified ships puts a pilot on the field ACTIVELY attempting to engage in combat against targets that are trying to run a blockade. It takes training time and fair amount of isk sunk into one ship to accomplish this, isn't that going by the "risk vs reward" doctrine that CCP attempts to uphold this game to?
If you want a special script that further nerfs the dictor? OK fine, but I want a mechanic that will allow me defend my damn space and give me content. Ceptor fleets are fun to fly in but quite the opposite to defend against because any force put together to defend against them and they just run away. I'm all for hit and run tactics, but this is still pretty broken. Rise looking at you dude... |
Raphael Celestine
Celestine Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 02:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Habris wrote:Allowing a T2 bubble generator to catch interdiction nullified ships puts a pilot on the field ACTIVELY attempting to engage in combat against targets that are trying to run a blockade. It takes training time and fair amount of isk sunk into one ship to accomplish this, isn't that going by the "risk vs reward" doctrine that CCP attempts to uphold this game to?
If you want a special script that further nerfs the dictor? OK fine, but I want a mechanic that will allow me defend my damn space and give me content. Trouble is, that training time and ISK isn't being spent 'to beat nullified ships' - a large chunk of it is just the minimum necessary to use bubble generators at all. 'Beating the ship specifically designed to beat you' isn't an appropriate advantage simply for upgrading to the T2 variant. Even a script is questionable - it still boils down to allowing the defender to beat interdiction-nullified ships by doubling-down on the strategy that nullifiers were designed to counter in the first place.
I'm not necessarily opposed to giving people a way to beat interceptors, but doing it with dictors is the wrong way to go about it. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 02:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Raphael Celestine wrote:Trouble is, that training time and ISK isn't being spent 'to beat nullified ships' - a large chunk of it is just the minimum necessary to use bubble generators at all. 'Beating the ship specifically designed to beat you' isn't an appropriate advantage simply for upgrading to the T2 variant. Even a script is questionable - it still boils down to allowing the defender to beat interdiction-nullified ships by doubling-down on the strategy that nullifiers were designed to counter in the first place.
I'm not necessarily opposed to giving people a way to beat interceptors, but doing it with dictors is the wrong way to go about it.
That is a fair point but I mirror the that point in favor for my argument, Why does the training time(less I might add) and isk (which as stated the fits are equally as costly) being spent justify the ability to defeat bubbles of all kinds currently in game simply because its t2/t3?
I understand the interdiction nullification was designed to defeat generalized bubbles, but now there is NOTHING other than a lucky point or decloak + point to counter this mechanic. In my mind this is very much like when cloaks and warp core stabs had no negative affects on combat.
I'll expand on what i'm willing to sacrifice as a pilot in order to be able to defend my space against this broken mechanic.
I wouldn't find it unreasonable if it took a special script which imposed further nerfs on the hictor, be it speed, lock range, hp, capacitor debuffs, hell even nerf the bubble size to 15km.
I wouldn't find it unreasonable if it took two hictors with t2 generators, one to disrupt the nullification and one to bubble the ship.
I don't find what I am asking to be unreasonable request in order to defend the space I live in and generate content. |
Raphael Celestine
Celestine Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 02:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Habris wrote:That is a fair point but I mirror the that point in favor for my argument, Why does the training time(less I might add) and isk (which as stated the fits are equally as costly) being spent justify the ability to defeat bubbles of all kinds currently in game simply because its t2/t3? Typically, specialists get a more powerful payoff than generalists (at their particular specialisation). A HIC pilot has spent their training time and ISK on being able to catch almost any ship in the game; an inty/T3 pilot has spent their time/ISK for, among other things, the ability to specifically counter one ship type: HICs.
The difference between a T1 bubble and a T2 bubble is ~17 days training and ~500k ISK, which I'd say isn't enough to justify being able to catch the ships specifically designed to beat you.
Quote:I understand the interdiction nullification was designed to defeat generalized bubbles, but now there is NOTHING other than a lucky point or decloak + point to counter this mechanic. In my mind this is very much like when cloaks and warp core stabs had no negative affects on combat.
I'll expand on what i'm willing to sacrifice as a pilot in order to be able to defend my space against this broken mechanic.
I wouldn't find it unreasonable if it took a special script which imposed further nerfs on the hictor, be it speed, lock range, hp, capacitor debuffs, hell even nerf the bubble size to 15km.
I wouldn't find it unreasonable if it took two hictors with t2 generators, one to disrupt the nullification and one to bubble the ship.
I don't find what I am asking to be unreasonable request in order to defend the space I live in and generate content. As I said above, I have no inherent objection to giving people a better way to catch nullified ships, I just think that upgraded HIC bubbles - even at the cost of heavy nerfs - isn't the way to do it.
My position is very straight-forward: the counter to a HIC is a nullified ship. The counter to a nullified ship should be something that is not a HIC. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2241
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 02:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Habris wrote: If you want a special script that further nerfs the dictor? OK fine, but I want a mechanic that will allow me defend my damn space and give me content. Ceptor fleets are fun to fly in but quite the opposite to defend against because any force put together to defend against them and they just run away. I'm all for hit and run tactics, but this is still pretty broken. Rise looking at you dude...
Driving them off is a successful defense of your space is it not?
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Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 03:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Raphael Celestine wrote:Habris wrote:That is a fair point but I mirror the that point in favor for my argument, Why does the training time(less I might add) and isk (which as stated the fits are equally as costly) being spent justify the ability to defeat bubbles of all kinds currently in game simply because its t2/t3? Typically, specialists get a more powerful payoff than generalists (at their particular specialisation). A HIC pilot has spent their training time and ISK on being able to catch almost any ship in the game; an inty/T3 pilot has spent their time/ISK for, among other things, the ability to specifically counter one ship type: HICs. The difference between a T1 bubble and a T2 bubble is ~17 days training and ~500k ISK, which I'd say isn't enough to justify being able to catch the ships specifically designed to beat you. Quote:I understand the interdiction nullification was designed to defeat generalized bubbles, but now there is NOTHING other than a lucky point or decloak + point to counter this mechanic. In my mind this is very much like when cloaks and warp core stabs had no negative affects on combat.
I'll expand on what i'm willing to sacrifice as a pilot in order to be able to defend my space against this broken mechanic.
I wouldn't find it unreasonable if it took a special script which imposed further nerfs on the hictor, be it speed, lock range, hp, capacitor debuffs, hell even nerf the bubble size to 15km.
I wouldn't find it unreasonable if it took two hictors with t2 generators, one to disrupt the nullification and one to bubble the ship.
I don't find what I am asking to be unreasonable request in order to defend the space I live in and generate content. As I said above, I have no inherent objection to giving people a better way to catch nullified ships, I just think that upgraded HIC bubbles - even at the cost of heavy nerfs - isn't the way to do it. My position is very straight-forward: the counter to a HIC is a nullified ship. The counter to a nullified ship should be something that is not a HIC.
Then what should it be? I really would like an answer instead of a generalized "No, but yes". I get and could agree the point of T2 generators isk+training time "not being worthy of the ability catch nullied ships", but doesn't change the fact that its a broken mechanic with no real defense against. Hictors should be the answer because A.) the training time is actually about a third longer at the base level than a t3 cruiser and B.) Its an expensive asset, that once a bubble is up is pretty stationary target that has the DPS of a wet pool noodle. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 03:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Habris wrote: If you want a special script that further nerfs the dictor? OK fine, but I want a mechanic that will allow me defend my damn space and give me content. Ceptor fleets are fun to fly in but quite the opposite to defend against because any force put together to defend against them and they just run away. I'm all for hit and run tactics, but this is still pretty broken. Rise looking at you dude...
Driving them off is a successful defense of your space is it not?
About as successful as scaring away a pack of wolves set on killing its prey. |
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Raphael Celestine
Celestine Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 03:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Habris wrote:Then what should it be? I really would like an answer instead of a generalized "No, but yes". I get and could agree the point of T2 generators isk+training time "not being worthy of the ability catch nullied ships", but doesn't change the fact that its a broken mechanic with no real defense against. Hictors should be the answer because A.) the training time is actually about a third longer at the base level than a t3 cruiser and B.) Its an expensive asset, that once a bubble is up is pretty stationary target that has the DPS of a wet pool noodle. My objection to it being HICs is that balance should be rock < paper < scissors < rock, not rock < paper < better rock. It's not a question of HICs being unbalanced in the sense of being over- or under-powered, it's that allowing them to beat what was supposed to be their counter is bad game design regardless of how powerful they are otherwise.
Based on that logic, the counter to an interdiction-nullified ship should use targeted warp jammers - the 'lucky point' you mentioned earlier. If interceptors are too hard to stop at the moment, then the solution is to change something so that the defender doesn't need to be as lucky to land a point on them.
If I understand the mechanics correctly, one of the biggest problems is that you always need at least one server tick to lock on and then a second tick to activate the point (even if the point is supposedly preactivated) and interceptors can get as low as a two-second align time. It might be too difficult to implement, but perhaps the best solution would be to redo the code so that preactivated modules will trigger immediately on a lock-on, not one second later. If that's not practical (or not enough), then maybe interceptors need to have their agility or sig nerfed.
Or, as Derath implied, maybe players just need to get used to the idea that they can't completely lock down 'their' space and that scaring off the wolves without getting eaten counts as a victory in-and-of-itself even if all the wolves are still alive.
Quote:Addendum; I like how you don't classify a Hictor as a specialized ship but do for a T3. My only guess as to this thought process is because you think the subsystems, which is hilarious o.o It's definitely a specialised ship in the abstract sense, but it's job is 'catch everything', while nullified ship's job is 'beat a HIC'. When being compared to this particular target it is the less specialised of the two combatants. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 07:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Firstly to fix the issue of server ticks is a rather serious undertaking to say the least, so while it would be the best way to enforce the current mechanics it's pretty unfeasible. Also the ceptor changes made it so a full combat ceptor took longer than 2 seconds to align and warp. With the mods its quite easy to get a sub 2 second align time.
Like with the interceptors after they first were given interdiction nullification I don't believe CCP realized (or perhaps they did ...) what nigh uncatchable cloaky t3's have done for nullsec. This isn't about making rock 2.0, it's about giving the players a sp and isk intensive way to counter something that is pretty broken. I think a script reducing the range of the bubble and debuffing scan res or max lock range would be a solid answer for this problem.
Again I must point out other than a lucky point or decloak on t3 there is little one can do to catch interdiction nullified ships and that is a problem. Nothing should be able to operate with such impunity. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2692
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 08:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Habris wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Habris wrote: If you want a special script that further nerfs the dictor? OK fine, but I want a mechanic that will allow me defend my damn space and give me content. Ceptor fleets are fun to fly in but quite the opposite to defend against because any force put together to defend against them and they just run away. I'm all for hit and run tactics, but this is still pretty broken. Rise looking at you dude...
Driving them off is a successful defense of your space is it not? About as successful as scaring away a pack of wolves set on killing its prey.
So 100% successful then. If they're gone, they're gone, regardless of what they're set on doing. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
188
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
I do feel that the upgrade from T1 to T2 isn't much on hictor bubbles..... but getting interdiction nullified vessels? no - not that - and I think the infini-point can already be applied to anything, can't it? For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
235
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 12:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
Is the primary purpose of the Hic bubble to trap people and keep them on grid? Or to alter their warp path? What if you had a ship/structure that had no inherent warp disruptino effect, and had a min dist to bubbles but dragged everyone to it, inc nullified vessels? To avoid is just beating ceptors it's sphere of influence couldnt overlap with warp disruption perhaps?
just brainstorming so maybe its a poor idea but I see it was a interesting tactic, would help catch those annoying cov ops t3s. The Wormhole Kid |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 17:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote: So 100% successful then. If they're gone, they're gone, regardless of what they're set on doing.
Ok since you're a little confused as to what I'm talking about, No it's not successful. Ceptors just bust through any effort to put up a fight and just rapidly travel 4 or 6 jumps away. Just like pack hunters trying to take down larger prey, they nip and back off to a safe distance. There is no catching or holding them down. As you live in empire and lowsec I don't expect you to understand this at all. Thanks for the bump though....
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:I do feel that the upgrade from T1 to T2 isn't much on hictor bubbles..... but getting interdiction nullified vessels? no - not that - and I think the infini-point can already be applied to anything, can't it?
I can agree that point since apparently the extra training time isn't enough incentive to support such a change. If it's coupled with a new script or specialized rig would that not be sufficient? The infini point has a limited range and requires a lock first, which is the whole point of asking for this change since it's damn near impossible to catch a small gang of ceptors with even or greater numbers. In the space I inhabit we threw together a fleet comp of 3 keres and 10 wolves with an onyx and max links and still ceptors and t3's come and go as they please. Interdiction nullification should not be allowed such impunity, as you might catch one or two interceptors and even less if they're cloaky t3's.
I don't care what it takes but hictors should be able to stop interdiction nullification ships. It's an expensive ship that at a bare minimum takes 143 days and about 275-300m isk to field, and if a new script or specialized rig are introduced I can't see the "no" argument holding water.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
432
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 18:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Fully supported.
Nullification should continue to work against deployable bubbles and regular Interdictor bubbles, but if I am willing to put my very skilled, expensive ship on the gate, I should at least have the opportunity to decloak and catch you before you burn out of my bubble.
The other solution would be to make it so that you cannot make a T3 that combines warping cloaked with Interdiction Nullification. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
33
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 18:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote: The other solution would be to make it so that you cannot make a T3 that combines warping cloaked with Interdiction Nullification.
Not within the scope of this thread, but not a bad idea in the least.
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2701
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 18:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Habris wrote: As you live in empire and lowsec I don't expect you to understand this at all. Thanks for the bump though....
You're welcome. As you live in nullsec, I don't expect you to understand how to catch ships without using bubbles. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 18:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Habris wrote: As you live in empire and lowsec I don't expect you to understand this at all. Thanks for the bump though....
You're welcome. As you live in nullsec, I don't expect you to understand how to catch ships without using bubbles.
I wasn't trying to put you down with the comment but truly if you do no live in nullsec or have not since these ships/changes were introduced I do not expect you to understand. I want to defend my space currently the methods of attack that I have experienced are most often with little to no exception are interceptors,t3's, and blops (bombers). Very rarely is there a small gang that comes in with something that can't just blow through any defense because they finally run into a force the counter them. If I'm willing to field over a billion in assets requiring multiple pilots to combat a half billion worth of interceptors, why should my risk v reward be skewed because of a mechanic that currently has counter with a paltry success rate.
I am all for hit and run guerrilla style tactics, but the current state of things is just ridiculous. |
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2701
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Habris wrote: If I'm willing to field over a billion in assets requiring multiple pilots to combat a half billion worth of interceptors, why should my risk v reward be skewed because of a mechanic that currently has counter with a paltry success rate.
I am all for hit and run guerrilla style tactics, but the current state of things is just ridiculous.
I have been in null since the changes. I also live in low, where we don't use bubbles to catch anything at all. Plenty of interceptors die here. Plenty ot T3s die here. Blops die here. Carriers die here. Everything dies here. No bubbles necessary. You have bubbles, and I realize they are a great convenience; they are no longer the jack of all trades of nullsec tackle, and that's very unlikely to change.
The problem is that you're trying to hammer nails with a $500 power drill. You might pound them in one day, but your power drill will look like **** and it will take far longer than using a $20 hammer.
Or, in this case, your own fleet of Interceptors. I appreciate that you spent weeks or months training to use a Hictor. I appreciate that you spent millions buying and fitting the hull, and probably slotting Slaves into your clone. That doesn't change that fact that for what you're wanting to do, it's the wrong tool. An Interceptor can catch a nullified cloaky T3. A gang of them can kill it; at the least they can pin it down until you can drop a cruiser gang on it.
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote: I have been in null since the changes. I also live in low, where we don't use bubbles to catch anything at all. Plenty of interceptors die here. Plenty ot T3s die here. Blops die here. Carriers die here. Everything dies here. No bubbles necessary. You have bubbles, and I realize they are a great convenience; they are no longer the jack of all trades of nullsec tackle, and that's very unlikely to change.
The problem is that you're trying to hammer nails with a $500 power drill. You might pound them in one day, but your power drill will look like **** and it will take far longer than using a $20 hammer.
Or, in this case, your own fleet of Interceptors. I appreciate that you spent weeks or months training to use a Hictor. I appreciate that you spent millions buying and fitting the hull, and probably slotting Slaves into your clone. That doesn't change that fact that for what you're wanting to do, it's the wrong tool. An Interceptor can catch a nullified cloaky T3. A gang of them can kill it; at the least they can pin it down until you can drop a cruiser gang on it.
The bolded text is where I believe you are fundamentally wrong. Eve is risk v. reward. Currently other than supercap hunting and possibly wanting a bubble that you can dictate there is little to no advantage to having a hictor of a dictor. I know that statement is full of holes and I could argue points and counter points all day, but that is for a different thread. I can appreciate that lots of things die in lowsec, experienced a bit of that in Daras not but a few days ago, but YOU DON'T OWN LOWSEC. Nullsec, specifically Deklein is where I hang my hat, and to be all but inept killing 1 or 2 (possibly 3 if lucky) ceptors out of a gang of 15+ when my gang is larger and the cost point much higher is unacceptable. There needs to be a way to counter interdicition nullifications and I do believe tweaking the hictor is the answer.
edit: and since when is a max res boosted keres a $500.00 power drill? |
Arronicus
X-Prot Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
975
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
Raphael Celestine wrote:Why don't they?
Because the interdiction-nullifier mechanic is specifically intended as a counter to the area-of-effect warp disruption mechanic. If you want to catch a nullified ship, you need to use a targeted warp jammer - that is the whole point of the mechanic.
Not only this, but the t2 hictor bubbles have massive range. That is what the extra training is for, the increase to range, and that alone, makes it worth it. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 19:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:Raphael Celestine wrote:Why don't they?
Because the interdiction-nullifier mechanic is specifically intended as a counter to the area-of-effect warp disruption mechanic. If you want to catch a nullified ship, you need to use a targeted warp jammer - that is the whole point of the mechanic. Not only this, but the t2 hictor bubbles have massive range. That is what the extra training is for, the increase to range, and that alone, makes it worth it.
Please go read the OP. |
gentle hellfire
The End of Eternity Ad-Astra
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 20:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Hmm...
Maybe the hic should have interdiction probes with reduced cooldown, increased range and duration instead.
Interdiction nullification has kinda made a mockery of fleets looking to catch targets.
1. Big fish eats little fish, you can't pull out a fleet in null to form a proper blockade. If a fleet with a high isk value undocks, everyone knows about it and wants to kill it... This makes killing your target next to impossible, even in your own system. For an example, an interceptor assisted with drones would wreck anything coming into system. Unfortunately the only ones capable of doing that are battleships, hardly a worthy investment to hunt a wolf pack that you can not chase.
2. Hics are suppose to be for capitals imo, they are the only thing that can. I don't like seeing them being used on subcapitals and think its lesser counterpart should take over the role with maybe needed more then one to be on par with a hic. |
Quintessen
Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos
414
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 20:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Habris wrote:Domanique Altares wrote: I have been in null since the changes. I also live in low, where we don't use bubbles to catch anything at all. Plenty of interceptors die here. Plenty ot T3s die here. Blops die here. Carriers die here. Everything dies here. No bubbles necessary. You have bubbles, and I realize they are a great convenience; they are no longer the jack of all trades of nullsec tackle, and that's very unlikely to change.
The problem is that you're trying to hammer nails with a $500 power drill. You might pound them in one day, but your power drill will look like **** and it will take far longer than using a $20 hammer.
Or, in this case, your own fleet of Interceptors. I appreciate that you spent weeks or months training to use a Hictor. I appreciate that you spent millions buying and fitting the hull, and probably slotting Slaves into your clone. That doesn't change that fact that for what you're wanting to do, it's the wrong tool. An Interceptor can catch a nullified cloaky T3. A gang of them can kill it; at the least they can pin it down until you can drop a cruiser gang on it.
The bolded text is where I believe you are fundamentally wrong. Eve is risk v. reward. Currently other than supercap hunting and possibly wanting a bubble that you can dictate there is little to no advantage to having a hictor of a dictor. I know that statement is full of holes and I could argue points and counter points all day, but that is for a different thread. I can appreciate that lots of things die in lowsec, experienced a bit of that in Daras not but a few days ago, but YOU DON'T OWN LOWSEC. Nullsec, specifically Deklein is where I hang my hat, and to be all but inept killing 1 or 2 (possibly 3 if lucky) ceptors out of a gang of 15+ when my gang is larger and the cost point much higher is unacceptable. There needs to be a way to counter interdicition nullifications and I do believe tweaking the hictor is the answer. edit: and since when is a max res boosted keres a $500.00 power drill?
EVE is also a place where this is no perfect safety. It's a good thing that things can slip through, be it BRs or Intys. I would agree that T3s are annoying because they don't really seem to make sacrifices all the much for their advantage. And that much force shouldn't be as easily projectable without a counter.
The ability for intys to fly unobstructed is even more critical in our era of increasingly solidified power. Guerilla tactics are going to be a mainstay for those individuals who want to create content with large coalitions without being able to actually pose a real threat. Perfectly guarded space means less content for those kinds of tactics.
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Crazey Monkey
Common Sense Ltd Nulli Secunda
42
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Posted - 2014.05.18 20:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
Came here expecting gewn tears, left satisfied. Thank you tri. |
Habris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
35
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Posted - 2014.05.18 21:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Crazey Monkey wrote:Came here expecting gewn tears, left satisfied. Thank you tri.
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Darth Kilth
Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans
174
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Posted - 2014.05.18 21:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Shot in the dark, why not give all current nullified ships and modules a penalty that negatively affects Agility while in the influence of a bubble. Even if this only increases allign time by 1 or 2 seconds, it at least creates a situation were you can catch nullified ships without needing 3000+ scan res ships to lock up everything. |
Mirthander Kane
The Warp Core Stabilizers Tactical Narcotics Team
28
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Posted - 2014.05.18 22:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Fully agree with this idea. Actually also thought about this yesterday... A specialized ship such as HIC should be able to fit a more specialized module/script that would counter interdiction nullified ships. At the cost of some other abilities. A good pilot would still be able to mwd out of such a bubble and warp away (especially if bubble has reduced size), so there are actually some risk to inties aswell - not just the current reward methodology that they enjoy.
As you stated, there is currently NO counter for inty spam - we've even tried running fleets of scanres inties to catch enemy inty fleets, but the only thing you can hope for is the luck factor. (People seem to also forget EVE still has latency affecting targeting speed...) So an expensive ship (both in cost and skill) should be able to counter this. I also think a HIC should be the only ship/deployable with this ability. Risk vs reward seems apt with this idea +1 |
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