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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Alyssa Haginen
State War Academy Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2014.05.19 16:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
The title says it all, the Nestor is nothing right now. It has no role that can't be replaced by other cheaper ships. At it's price point, it would be more logical to use a pair of guardians or a triage carrier. It really needs a covert cloak to open up it's possibilities. It's not going to become some overpowered ship. It doesn't get any capacitor transfer bonuses and with a cloak/full 6 repairs on the highs, it's equal to 2 guardians. However, the Nestor couldn't fit like that due to cap. A fleet Nestor would require 3 energy transfers and a full cap fit in the mids and rigs leaving 4 repairs. It can't align that fast and it would take a ton of fuel to jump one through covert ops portal if it's even possible due to mass. The ship really would be a win with a cloaking device for PvE and PvP players. |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3594
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Like... a Covert Ops cloak...? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2722
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yes, the lack of a CovOps cloak is exactly what has been preventing me from dropping coin on and overpriced piece of ****. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
215
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 17:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree completely that the Nestor should be able to rock a covert ops cloak, but that still isn't enough for me to want to spend 1.5B ISK on one.
Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |
Alyssa Haginen
State War Academy Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2014.05.19 18:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Like... a Covert Ops cloak...?
Not only like it but exactly that
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:I agree completely that the Nestor should be able to rock a covert ops cloak, but that still isn't enough for me to want to spend 1.5B ISK on one.
It would be the first battleship able to safely navigate lowsec. Fits a covert ops cloak which can be very useful for some great new logistics tactics. Also, PvE players would be able to take advantage of the covert ship in lowsec. One great example is two Nestors could run level 5 missions in low sec much safer then other battleships. |
Sorana Bonzari
Paradox Collective Choke Point
6
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Posted - 2014.05.19 18:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think you need to take rebalance in steps.
Fist thing is raise awareness by answering the following.
What the heck is a Nestor?
Why would I want to fly a Nestor?
Then you can get to the root of the problem and ask the following...
How to balance it for that role?
un-fortunately the Nestor is still stuck on the first question ;) |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
784
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 19:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
On it's own it would not make it wildly popular, currently it is like a car without wheels. Not a very good one either. At least wheels would be a good starting point......... So +1 for the covert ops cloak, maybe we will all be surprised and find a home for it in wormhole space. Sure as hell won't try otherwise. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing
205
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 19:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
For f*ck sake people CCP WILL NOT DO THIS, STOP ASKING.
Reported thread. |
Arronicus
X-Prot Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
980
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Posted - 2014.05.19 19:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sorana Bonzari wrote:I think you need to take rebalance in steps.
Fist thing is raise awareness by answering the following.
What the heck is a Nestor?
Why would I want to fly a Nestor?
Then you can get to the root of the problem and ask the following...
How to balance it for that role?
un-fortunately the Nestor is still stuck on the first question ;)
This. I don't think a cov-ops cloak on the Nestor would do much for its usefulness, with its current design. |
Arronicus
X-Prot Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
980
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Posted - 2014.05.19 19:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:For f*ck sake people CCP WILL NOT DO THIS, STOP ASKING.
Reported thread.
And, here we have the angry child who has to rage for no reason. |
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2725
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Posted - 2014.05.19 19:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:TheMercenaryKing wrote:For f*ck sake people CCP WILL NOT DO THIS, STOP ASKING.
Reported thread. And, here we have the angry child who has to rage for no reason.
You would rage too if you were left to sit in a ****** diaper all day. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3051
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Posted - 2014.05.19 20:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Removed some off topic posts. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
216
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Posted - 2014.05.19 21:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:
This. I don't think a cov-ops cloak on the Nestor would do much for its usefulness, with its current design.
Yes, but what can be done about its current design to make it useful while still having any semblance of balance?
While a covert ops cloak would go a long way towards making this an excellent exploration craft, the Nestor still falls short in light of its 1.5 billion ISK price tag.
The first two SoE ships had a "Wow" factor to them and their utility was immediately apparent. Even the look of the Nestor falls short of what the first two had.
I like that it has the remote repair bonuses, these are useful for long range exploration groups but, again, utility in that role falls short. After bonuses, the remote armor repairer's range is only about 18km and the ship doesn't have the fitting to run them effectively.
If anything, I'd say move the Nestor to an exploration support role. Put the remote repairers out to 30 km, bonus some tractor beams and salvagers (salvage drone bonus?). In exchange, drop the data/relic bonuses, cut the drone bay but increase cargo or even add a fleet hangar. The cruiser and frigate have the data/relic bonuses plus the speed to cover the distances to the sites. Let the Nestor hang back in a support role.
Finally, give it some sort of unique, really cool exploration tool. I keep going back to the idea of an exploration related bastion or triage mode (probably because I could get a carrier or marauder for the same price or less). Not sure exactly what that would be though. And/or let it fit new exploration related fleet assistance links.
Something...ANYTHING to justify the cost.
Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |
Markus45
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 21:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
- Needs a cov ops cloak - Needs to drop the RR bonus for something that no other BS can do that fits into the stealth theme - Needs to be able to align quickly enough so if you warp to celestial the moment an inty appears on full-range dscan, you can escape just in time (might already be able to).
And then it's useful. |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3598
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 23:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
The justification for a Covert Ops cloak on the Nestor can be summed up in one argument: it has such horrid maneuverability and is so abysmally slow that even a Covert Ops cloak probably won't help it 95% of the time. It just means that when it finally does lumber into warp it gains a temporary reprieve... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
429
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 00:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
Markus45 wrote:- Needs to drop the RR bonus for something that no other BS can do that fits into the stealth theme
funny thing is people have been asking for an RR BS. CCP gave that. Overpriced, unloved (because of price lol)...but people got what they asked for.
We could also argue RR is what is missing from ninjya gangs. Currently the only solution (not saying its ideal, jsut a solution) is the red headed step child known as Sin. Since guns don't make it a beast some opt to go remote repper heavy on it. Since there is no real good fit for Sin, opting to not fit guns as much has it avoid the tag of fail fit.
Also ccp would need to rebalance blops before they could co cloak this bs. CCP tried to give pirate all the things missing on other ships in the existing classes before. It backfired. I'd be looking at dramiel (pre-nerf) spam. As it had what AF's and inty's did not years ago before they relatively recent buffs. Cyna also fell into this category. Hell so did mach and vindi till CCP got around to maruader redo in some respects. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
3466
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 00:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
I still say, focus on the Exploration Support Ship as its purpose. Get rid of the hacking bonus and maybe even the scanning bonus. Instead add a fleet hangar of some 1-2k, a maintenance bay for 2 frigates and a role bonus that removes the targeting and resolution penalties of a cloaking device.
Now it can serve as a home away from home, a maintenance and refitting platform for the exploration fleet and it has enough firepower to be of use in a exploration site among the main group. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
303
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 02:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Read these two posts from the original thread on the Nestor from CCP Rise:
Basically it's absolutely not happening until after the Black-Ops rebalance and even then it's a long shot. If you want an SMA bring a Mobile Depot. |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3604
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 03:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Basically it's absolutely not happening until after the Black-Ops rebalance... It's an excuse to avoid dealing with an obviously flawed ship design. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Arthur Aihaken
Erebus Solia
3604
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 03:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Double post, but the Nestor still sucks. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
377
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 08:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
I would fly a shield version of nestor but because CCP are armor lovers we probably aren't getting one. No I don't mean rattlesnake, I mean shield logi version of it.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
303
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 13:27:00 -
[22] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Basically it's absolutely not happening until after the Black-Ops rebalance... It's an excuse to avoid dealing with an obviously flawed ship design.
I'm not seeing the issues with the design that you are.
I'm also not seeing the problem with waiting until after the actual cloaky battleships have been balanced as a base-line to consider adding a cloak to this battleship.
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Quote:"After going over a lot of these options in detail (both initially and after reading feedback), we feel happy with the decision to go with a focus in logistics, low mass, and general versatility. " Boring, ineffective and useless.
Your opinion. Not every ship is going to make everyone happy. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
789
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 15:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ok here is a suggestion. 1. Allow the nestor to be invisible on D scan while warping. note NOT a covert ops cloak. 2. Allow the nestor to reduce mass by 90% or multiply its mass by ten fold. 3. Increase agility and reduce time to enter warp in line with the mass change. 4. Drop all the "interesting" bonuses and allow it to be fit as a decent pirate battleship.with slots, PG, and Cpu to work.
That will be a reasonable ship to use in wormholes, not amazing or overpowered, just useful and a good tool for all WH cOrps.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
789
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 15:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Basically it's absolutely not happening until after the Black-Ops rebalance... It's an excuse to avoid dealing with an obviously flawed ship design. I'm not seeing the issues with the design that you are. I'm also not seeing the problem with waiting until after the actual cloaky battleships have been balanced as a base-line to consider adding a cloak to this battleship. Arthur Aihaken wrote:Quote:"After going over a lot of these options in detail (both initially and after reading feedback), we feel happy with the decision to go with a focus in logistics, low mass, and general versatility. " Boring, ineffective and useless. Your opinion. Not every ship is going to make everyone happy.
Unfortunately, it makes no one happy, not even the speculators. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
304
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Ok here is a suggestion. 1. Allow the nestor to be invisible on D scan while warping. note NOT a covert ops cloak. 2. Allow the nestor to reduce mass by 90% or multiply its mass by ten fold. 3. Increase agility and reduce time to enter warp in line with the mass change. 4. Drop all the "interesting" bonuses and allow it to be fit as a decent pirate battleship.with slots, PG, and Cpu to work.
That will be a reasonable ship to use in wormholes, not amazing or overpowered, just useful and a good tool for all WH cOrps.
This seems like a ridiculously specific list of things to make the Nestor the god of Wormhole ganks. The Nestor already warps quickly and has a lot more agility than most Battleships its size.
Also it was made very clear in the original thread that the "interesting" bonuses weren't taking up the slot of more powerful ones, they're there to provide utility and make the ship more interesting. Removing stuff like the Virus strength wouldn't result in them replacing it with a more powerful bonus, it would just result in that bonus going away.
As far as I know there's nothing stopping you from fitting it "as a decent pirate battleship" with Lasers and Drones.
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Unfortunately, it makes no one happy, not even the speculators.
Apparently some people must like the Nestor because it's been selling at a consistent, albeit low, rate since it was introduced. Slightly more than the Bhaalgorn and about 2/3rds of the Nightmare in terms of units sold.
From the looks of the market data they could probably add more sources of SoE LP, increase the drops from Rogue Drones, or reduce the LP cost and the ship's popularity would probably go up to a fairly respectable level. |
Mikhem
Taxisk Unlimited
135
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 09:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lots of people wish covert ops cloak for Nestor. I think it is too powerful option for battleship. It is good that covert ops cloak is limited to maximum of blockade runner size ships. We can't have total security in new eden. Null sec is wild wild west and that is what it is supposed to be. All ships should be able to produce more ISK than they cost in average before they are destroyed. This gives goal to ship survivability.
This made me think something. Black ops battleships cannot use covops cloak either but they get bonuses to normal cloaks. Could Nestor receive this kind of bonuses? I find it strange that noone has asked this before and no comment about this possibility from CCP side.
Here are blackops ships cloak bonuses: 125% bonus to ship max velocity when using Cloaking Devices No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds Mikhem
Door is still closed. :(
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Nami Kumamato
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
122
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 12:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Although I highly agree with the cloak bonus for the Nestor (tho Covert Ops would be a bit too much - normal cloak would be a good idea) I think I ahve spotted a patern in Nestor threads... Most if not all the threads regarding the Nestor seem to be related to people who want to take the mighty blender on solo runs. It's not made for that people! Take a Nestor and 2-3 Stratios(-i, -ae, -es?) with you and you can run basically any site in New Eden (K-space or W-Space). The Nestor is a shiny logi - stop thinking you can go hoping around Low or Null all alone and not be turned into shiny SOE flaming parts - a support ship is kinda useless without the "supportees". It's basically the infant newborn of an Archon. And we all know what happens to solo-ratting Archons...
If I'm not mistaking the devs already said that cloak on a BS is a bit broken, so I don't think we will have it. Having a cloak bonus would make it more attractive for a wider audience tho.
"And now my ship is oh so cloaked and fit It never felt so good, I never felt so hid" - Ramona McCandless, Untitled |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5431
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 13:46:00 -
[28] - Quote
I distinctly recall a DEV (Fozzie or Rise) saying in another thread here that a Covert-ops cloak on the Nestor is never going to happen (and was never intended to happen) because...
- It would step on the toes of Black-ops (which don't and probably won't get them either) - it would make them too powerful (because cloaking is a very powerful tool and the Nestor is more combat capable than any Black-ops battleship). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Luscius Uta
87
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 06:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
The Nestor is ultimately broken because it tries to be good at many things and failing at all those things, simply because there are much cheaper alternatives. I would get rid of scanning, hacking and archeology bonuses, since nobody uses a Battleship for exploration, as even in wormholes T3's are better and cheaper option for running anomalies, data and relic sites. Usefulness of large energy turret range bonus is also questionable as drone link augmentors and remote repair modules typically make better use of its high slots. So I would add these role bonuses instead:
-50% bonus to drone control range -50% reduction in Remote Armor Repairer activation cost
Make the ship fill the gap between T2 logis and carriers. Giving it a Ship maintenance bay also sounds like an interesting idea, although I would leave it for some future T2 Battleship class designed for on-grid boosting. And while I'm no fan of the covert ops cloak idea, being able to be bridged by a black ops isn't an ability that should be dismissed easily. Highsec is for casuals. |
Raw Matters
NORDIC COMPANY Northern Associates.
31
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 09:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
I totally agree that the Nestor needs some love, actually more like a major overhaul, but a covert cloaking would be too much. The Nestor would then become a primary PvP ship, replacing much of the functionality of the Black Ops. If you compare a Nestor to a Sin - both with a T1 cloaking device equipped - the primary difference is that the Nestor has scanning bonus (which is almost useless) and the Sin can fly faster. If you now give the Nestor a covert ops cloaking, the Sin would be reduced to a Jump Bridge.
As I suggested here, I would rather like to see some changes focussing on Exploration. You mostly need cloaking for two things: to hide and for gate camps. As the Nestor has a relatively fast align time and can equip a T1 cloaking device to hide and warp core stabs against scrambling, the main problems are:
- Extremely long lock times when just installing a cloaking device.
- Cannot warp in bubbles.
As you now have the Mobile Depots, you can refit the warp-core stabs at any time once you entered your destination system. You cannot however remove the cloaking device, since if you need it, you need it fast and not in a minute. So what needs to be fixed for the Nestor is the lock time increase when equipping one. Therefore my primary suggestion is:
Quote:Give the Nestor a 100% reduction of cloaking device scan resolution reduction (as both a hint to the player on how to equip this and a survivability change). The bubble issue would require either a total interdiction immunity or a module for that, but both would make the Nestor way too powerful. An alternative is a one-time escape system like a jump drive with no cyno requirement, so you can - if you are fast enough - hit that jump and be gone, at least on the first gate camp you meet. Details on how I envision this in my other post linked above.
In addition I think a +1 warp strength would greatly help on survival to prevent that one random tackler to lock you down for good. A Nestor - as most BS class ships - cannot kill a properly piloted Interceptor, so meeting one means death eventually. That won't be totally prevented by a +1, but at least greatly reduced, as the interceptor needs to be very close to use the scrambler (and actually needs to have one equipped). |
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