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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
36
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Posted - 2014.05.21 16:06:00 -
[61] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:One thing to note, this change was requested by quite a few wormhole players immediately after Odyssey and was one of the common requests from the wormhole members of CSM 8. They correctly argued that having these modules passive removes any choice or risk around them and skews the balance between midslots and lowslots for probing ships.
I've had this item on my list of CSM requested wormhole improvements for a while.
By using these scanning modules, however, you also remove the CHOICE of using defensive/offensive modules like shield extenders and points/webs. Seems like a fair trade to me! |
Mara Tessidar
Dark Star Safari Goonswarm Federation
1106
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Posted - 2014.05.21 16:13:00 -
[62] - Quote
What's the purpose of this change? It's an illusion of choice if you do the math at all.
Reveal what you're in to keep your current scan strength, or stay cloaked and eat the nerf.
Soniclover, perhaps you didn't figure out that small and pointless kicks in peoples' nuts were stupid after the whole ESS debacle. Thankfully, you can heed everybody's words here--just like then--and maybe rethink how you want to go about doing this. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
417
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Posted - 2014.05.21 16:15:00 -
[63] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Removing there effect from only combat probes does not address the risk vs reward ratio that is brought by them for PVE scanning though. Making them active does. Only in wormhole space, and maybe perhaps Lowsec ... but I try to avoid Lowsec, it's scary :)
See, in Hisec, you don't need to cloak to scan safely or surreptitiously. You can use active modules. Risk is zero for great PvE reward.
In Nullsec, if there is someone else in system you cloak up and wait for them to leave. Then you can scan uncloaked, watching local for the next non-friendly to wander in. Risk is zero for great PvE reward.
In W-space, you can't see anyone in Local. You don't know if you're being stalked. If you decloak to scan, you are vulnerable, and since you are distracted with scanning you probably didn't even see the probes from the person who just blew up your ship and your pod, as he only needed a handful of seconds to scan you.
(Do note that the Radar and Mag sites are not the most profitable sites to be running in W-space; you only need to jump into W-space, without dropping probes, to find the most profitable sites)
Changing the modules to active usage will affect Wormhole space first and foremost, and will have zero impact on the two most populated areas of the game.
By contrast, the potentially-accepted compromise will affect everyone everywhere equally.
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Cosmic Scanner
Temnava Legion No Holes Barred
66
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Posted - 2014.05.21 16:17:00 -
[64] - Quote
I am someone who has done a lot of scanning both before and after the implementation of scanning modules. Your just making w-space more time consuming for all of us. We scan sigs all the time, it is our bread and butter. If you want to nerf combat probing this is not the way to go about it.
I don't think there is anything wrong with combat probing anyway, you have to take into consideration that ships can actually move to avoid combat probing, if they are moving / warping you can end up scanning them mid warp, more so now due to the warp changes from not so long ago, where for example i have ended up 300km or more away from dreads or carriers due to their really slow deceleration from warp. Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1530
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Posted - 2014.05.21 16:19:00 -
[65] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:This change is not coming in Kronos, but we're looking at doing it in Crius (late July). The reason for this change is that combat scanning is too fast/easy right now and we want to rectify that. Since Odyssey we've been monitoring possible fallout from the scan changes, with combat scanning being one area we felt there was a risk of it becoming too powerful. Scanning while cloaked is very powerful right now and we want there to be more of a choice between staying cloaked, but be a little less efficient in scanning, or uncloaking and scanning faster.
You could calculate exactly how long it would take to scan down a target using simple maths before you implemented these scanning modules... So are you basing this change on actual statistics like 90% of combat scans result in a kill, or is this just based on a feeling in your bones?
I don't think wormholers feel that they can't scan without these things but hardly anyone in wormhole space will use these because remaining cloaked is so important. Wormholes get next to no new wormhole specific features/tools so it's natural that we feel like you are forgetting about us yet again, as you are effectively making this a k-space only mod. +1 |
Mara Tessidar
Dark Star Safari Goonswarm Federation
1106
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 16:25:00 -
[66] - Quote
Under the new system you either take an annoying, pointless nerf or get completely fucked over.
Oh, this isn't the original ESS thread. Then why does that statement still apply so well? |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
33
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Posted - 2014.05.21 16:36:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:This change is not coming in Kronos, but we're looking at doing it in Crius (late July). The reason for this change is that combat scanning is too fast/easy right now and we want to rectify that. Since Odyssey we've been monitoring possible fallout from the scan changes, with combat scanning being one area we felt there was a risk of it becoming too powerful. Scanning while cloaked is very powerful right now and we want there to be more of a choice between staying cloaked, but be a little less efficient in scanning, or uncloaking and scanning faster.
No, don't do this!
Don't go from one extreme (delay for sigs showing up) to the other (make it even harder to catch ppl by actively looking for them). Both will not generate more content.
The drawbacks of combat probing are already enormous. There is no need to make this less efficient. Active hunting with combat probes is already a mechanic that does not generate much content/is not very useful in a lot of scenarios. Reasons are obvious: Probes show up on d-scan! They are like a big signal fire saying: I was too lazy to probe your sites down earlier but hey here I am now.
Even if you are clever with your probes, e.g. hide them outside d-scan range, they will show up at least for one full scan cycle and then you need to warp your fleet in which will show up on d-scan too. Really hard to catch someone paying attention off guard. I would estimate that less than 2% of my kills come from combat probing. 98% from having BMs, d-scaning and jumping into them on a WH.
WH guys will hate this! Probing down the pipe is part of the daily routine of w-space dwellers. While doing this you want to give potential targets as few intel on you as possible. Probing sigs without being cloaked is not an option for them!
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Masao Kurata
Z List
52
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Posted - 2014.05.21 16:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
If you want anyone to use these outside of highsec you'll have to at least fix the interface so that dscan and probe controls aren't stuck on two tabs of the same window making it practically impossible to do defensive dscans while probing (or offensive dscanning for that matter). |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3554
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 16:39:00 -
[69] - Quote
You know, for a group that prides itself on living in a place without easy risk free intel there sure seem to be a lot of people upset that maximizing their intel potential will mean putting themselves at risk. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
33
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Posted - 2014.05.21 16:52:00 -
[70] - Quote
mynnna wrote:You know, for a group that prides itself on living in a place without easy risk free intel there sure seem to be a lot of people upset that maximizing their intel potential will mean putting themselves at risk.
What risk does the guy take that notices the probes on d-scan?
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Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
154
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Posted - 2014.05.21 16:55:00 -
[71] - Quote
mynnna wrote:You know, for a group that prides itself on living in a place without easy risk free intel there sure seem to be a lot of people upset that maximizing their intel potential will mean putting themselves at risk.
Those guys are babies. They scan a bit slower now, that's it. People on a short tour of W-Space can even breath easier now, since they don't have to waste time to refit between combat and scan fits all the time.
Also I'm pretty sure in those cases the time you gained from scanning faster was eaten up by the time you spend refitting at your depot, anyway. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2759
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 17:02:00 -
[72] - Quote
I love how quickly the 'hardcore' w-space vets snuggled up to this tit, and how hard they are bawling now that mommy is going to wean them off of it.
Some of you must have short memories or have been terrible at probing before. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Quinn Corvez
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
231
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Posted - 2014.05.21 17:04:00 -
[73] - Quote
mynnna wrote:You know, for a group that prides itself on living in a place without easy risk free intel there sure seem to be a lot of people upset that maximizing their intel potential will mean putting themselves at risk.
We don't pride ourselves on not having local, we just recognise that local is a **** mechanic that does more harm than good.
This change does nothing to improve the game, it just results in less pvp engagements and less options of ship choice. |
Porucznik Borewicz
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
12
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Posted - 2014.05.21 17:07:00 -
[74] - Quote
Get your bodies ready for cycling cloaks. Mark my words. It's habbading. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
132
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Posted - 2014.05.21 17:36:00 -
[75] - Quote
Perfect, taking a new module and ensuring it will stop being used. Quite frankly, I don't care about this change from the standpoint that I already have more important modules to fit where the scanny ones go. But still, I really fail to see what this actually accomplishes from a positive standpoint... Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you... |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1490
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 17:43:00 -
[76] - Quote
Hatshepsut IV wrote:Zifrian wrote:Jesus, the whining....
This is a good change. Scanning is too easy as it is a s at some point CCP needs to support the whole point of eve, which is conflict. It they don't make changes like this, which is really small, they risk the game becoming more and more watered down where everything is safe.
There are many ways to scan without cloaking. If you can't set up a safe and check scan for combat probes while scanning sites then you have no business scanning in the first place. Hell, I have warp stabs on my Helios anyway and most times I scan from the pos bubble anyway. This is not a big deal considering you can still scan cloaked if you need to anyway, just without mod bonus. All of this completely ignores the fact that it utter screws over usage of these modules for w-space scanning. Wormhole residents spend a sizeable part of their gametime scanning down new sigs and a key part of scouting new chains is doing so cloaked. Scanning at the POS or at a safespot isn't an option for us. Reguardless of whatever meta you "think" this change will implement the only reality of it will be that people will just stop using the modules. Which at that point just freaking delete them. I scan wormholes that I don't have a pos in all the time so it isn't just something 'I think'. Make a safe, watch dscan...or I dunno, scan cloaked and it'll take a bit longer. This isn't a big deal unless you want to play the game on easy mode.
Stop crying. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Arronicus
X-Prot Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
981
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 17:50:00 -
[77] - Quote
Excellent change.
I like the tradeoff, that you can take a little more risk for faster scanning, or stay completely hidden, and scan at the old rate, you know, the one that we all survived doing. The rate that really wasn't that bad, or a whole lot slower than now.
Sure is a lot of crying here, when we did just fine before these mods were introduced, and now they at least have a risk/reward gameplay aspect. HTFU. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
417
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 18:00:00 -
[78] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:I scan wormholes that I don't have a pos in all the time so it isn't just something 'I think'. Make a safe, watch dscan...or I dunno, scan cloaked and it'll take a bit longer. This isn't a big deal unless you want to play the game on easy mode.
Stop crying. I'll bite.
You're in W-space, no local, scanning your way around. How often do you hit dscan to watch for probes while you're scanning? Once every 10 seconds or so if you're lucky? You know what dscan is, right? Anyway, it takes more than a few seconds to manipulate your probes each time, so you're certainly not hitting dscan at every possible cycle.
Now tell me how quickly someone can combat scan you and recall probes. Hint: it's a lot less time now than it used to be with instantly-recalling probes. Uncloaked in in a "safe" spot does not make you safe when you are distracted, it makes you dead. Active scanning modules won't be used in W-space by anyone who has lived there for any length of time. The noobs that jump in using these modules aren't worth the ammo used to shoot them (though we will do that, of course).
The net result is things just slow back down to the previous pace. In Wormhole space. Enjoy your increased bonuses from active modules in your big blue donut out in Null, if they continue with making them active modules.
I get that you Nullsec types want to put the squeeze on W-space hunters; maybe we ARE too efficient. Just keep the propagandizing off the Test Server forums, k? It's especially distasteful for a CSM to stoop to that level here. Leave it on the regular forums, if you have to spew any of it in the first place. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1135
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 18:39:00 -
[79] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:CCP reacts to oceans of tears about AFK cloaking by nerfing WH pvp. gf o7
Fixed for you.
Nerfed back to post-Odyssey, which TBH isn't all that bad. I recall a great deal of :drama: about how scanning had become too easy at the time.
First, we're talking about straight ganks. Yeah, you won't be able to get a hit on a watchful player and be reasonably sure that he didn't notice, at least not without taking measures to make sure that you're off D-scan yourself, and yeah that'll make >15AU systems that much safer for people who take basic measures to ensure their safety.
But then, if it doesn't matter whether you're alert, that's not exactly encouraging smart play. So I don't see this as a disaster. Yeah, I'm going to be refitting my scanning ships. Yeah, the particularly paranoid will probably see my probes on scan and GTFO before I can grab them. Such is the life of a predator: you get the sick, the weak, the unlucky and the odd sacrifice. Most of the time, you get nothing. Sometimes you get lucky and pull something down in its prime, but that's not something you can really expect. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
33
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 18:49:00 -
[80] - Quote
Sorry for being so persistent in this thread but I think CCP tries to fix something without having put enough thought into it.
-This changes clearly does not create fitting diversity or a real choice, e.g. between point/web and faster probing. -This change does not prevent one cycle hits (while cloaked) in most cases. Maybe this is what actually you feel is too strong. Who knows. -These modules become obsolete for the population relying on probing the most, the w-space dudes! -Even without these changes no one fits them on a cloaky prot anyways. So who will be hit by this change the most? Hint: It is not the guys with all probing skills at 5.
In order to provide any further constructive feedback it would be useful to know what the actual problem with these modules is.
1)In what scenarios/context are these modules too strong?
2)Does the intended change really get you what you want? Does it actually solve the problem?
3)What other activities are impacted by these changes?
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
36
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Posted - 2014.05.21 18:53:00 -
[81] - Quote
*sigh* Some numbers, because everyone loves them. Assuming all lvl V skills, a standard fit buzzard with two scanning rigs and one t2 scanning mod of each type will
1.) have ~6% better scan strength 2.) have 20% less scan deviation 3.) need ~1 second less for a scan
In practice, this means that you save 1 - 8 seconds either by 1.) or not having to re-scan, respectively (later case is comparatively rare).
Now, just to put things into context: for about every 50 wormhole signatures (this is not including all the gas/relic/data garbage that comes with scanning in wormholes) I scan, there is 1! single! ship I catch by using (combat) probes. I mention this only so as to give those non-wormholers a realistic insight on how this is going to affect our day-to-day living.
And even then, that guy I gank is most likely either afk, not paying enough attention to d-scan, OR waiting for me to come fight him anyway, so only in the rarest of cases, such a change would make any difference whatsoever and benefit the victim.
And since nobody has brought it up already: Those sensor compensation skills that CCP introduced a while back (Linky) don't only affect ECM, but a ship's signature strength as well --> and therefore your ability to scan it. If anything, one could say that the scanning mods brought back the balance that had previously been destroyed.
I really hope, you guys in Design take another good look and think what such a change would really accomplish because the difference in pvp is really absolutely negligible. Whatever those CSM8 told you, it's complete rubbish.
PS: WTB RSS combat scanner probes and T2 gravity capacitor upgrades with 200 calibration only :> |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1135
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 18:59:00 -
[82] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:-Even without these changes no one fits them on a cloaky prot anyways. So who will be hit by this change the most? Hint: It is not the guys with all probing skills at 5.
True, this lands on new players, but post-Odyssey scanning is much easier for new players. They'll still be useful scanning down sites and holes, where results aren't quite so time-critical. They'll be worse at combat scanning, but that's enough of an art that they'll be worse anyway.
It was nice to be able to one-hit most everything, but honestly? That's not much of a minigame. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Mara Tessidar
Dark Star Safari Goonswarm Federation
1106
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 19:00:00 -
[83] - Quote
mynnna wrote:You know, for a group that prides itself on living in a place without easy risk free intel there sure seem to be a lot of people upset that maximizing their intel potential will mean putting themselves at risk.
"FYGM" |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
36
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Posted - 2014.05.21 19:08:00 -
[84] - Quote
mynnna wrote:You know, for a group that prides itself on living in a place without easy risk free intel there sure seem to be a lot of people upset that maximizing their intel potential will mean putting themselves at risk.
Yeah, that's the level of input that would be expected from a CSM member, thank you. |
Cosmic Scanner
Temnava Legion No Holes Barred
68
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Posted - 2014.05.21 19:16:00 -
[85] - Quote
All this change tells me as a w-space resident, is that "we are going to nerf combat probing by making all scanning take you longer". No man with any sense is going to scan uncloaked, i mean really... I don't care so much about nerfing combat probing as such (although i don't think there is a need for it), but nerfing scan speed in general, no thanks. Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga |
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
1222
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 19:25:00 -
[86] - Quote
So you're saying that right now it goes like this:
"Guys there are 8 probes on scan within 4 AU, I think we're getting probed"
But if you change it, it'll turn into: "Guys there are 8 probes on scan AND A BUZZARD HOLY **** STOP EVERYTHING GAME OVER MAN"
? ~ |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3555
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 19:37:00 -
[87] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:mynnna wrote:You know, for a group that prides itself on living in a place without easy risk free intel there sure seem to be a lot of people upset that maximizing their intel potential will mean putting themselves at risk. What risk does the guy take that notices the probes on d-scan? Here is your effortless and risk free intel. If he does not pay attention to sigs or has no scouts on em he deserves to die.
You know, you're right, I think we SHOULD disable dscan in wspace as well. And combat probes. If you want to find a ship you should do it the hard way, scan down every anomaly and warp in to put eyes on it directly. Anything short of direct eyes sounds too easy. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15622
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 19:42:00 -
[88] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:mynnna wrote:You know, for a group that prides itself on living in a place without easy risk free intel there sure seem to be a lot of people upset that maximizing their intel potential will mean putting themselves at risk. What risk does the guy take that notices the probes on d-scan? Here is your effortless and risk free intel. If he does not pay attention to sigs or has no scouts on em he deserves to die. You know, you're right, I think we SHOULD disable dscan in wspace as well. And combat probes. If you want to find a ship you should do it the hard way, scan down every anomaly and warp in to put eyes on it directly. Anything short of direct eyes sounds too easy.
Should the new W-space cynos show up on off gird overview though? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
Mara Tessidar
Dark Star Safari Goonswarm Federation
1108
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 19:44:00 -
[89] - Quote
Elise Randolph wrote:So you're saying that right now it goes like this:
"Guys there are 8 probes on scan within 4 AU, I think we're getting probed"
But if you change it, it'll turn into: "Guys there are 8 probes on scan AND A BUZZARD HOLY **** STOP EVERYTHING GAME OVER MAN"
?
You should probably stick to devising ways to kill CFC supers without violating Botlord because you clearly have no understanding of wormhole space hunting.
Competent people enter a hole, launch probes, cloak, move them out of d-scan range of objects in the solar system, and proceed to locate their target's anomaly using d-scan. Once that happens, the probes get extended to 16/32 AU with the target just at the edge of that range and overlapped to get a signal, and/or the probes are moved directly in a small formation onto the suspected target anomaly.
Nobody even remotely competent is going to decloak to get an extra 5-10% scan strength. Every single person who argues that they will is someone who does not spend significant time in wormholes or is engaging in wishful thinking.
What this change will accomplish is slightly diminished scan strength for people with good scanning skills, and greatly diminished scan strength for people with poorer scanning skills. People will not fit useless modules, which the mid-slot scanning modules will become once you have to decloak to use them.
If you're trying to nerf combat probing, this is an idiotic idea. People in highsec don't give a damn about being decloaked. People in lowsec and nullsec don't really either, since local already announced that they're there. This change affects purely people in wormhole space, who rely on being cloaked and undetected to hunt targets.
So thanks. Thanks a lot. Wormhole space totally needed this nerf. You've greatly improved gameplay with this.
P.S. add more frigates to nullsec anomalies, I hear that's also a great idea |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
36
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Posted - 2014.05.21 19:44:00 -
[90] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:mynnna wrote:You know, for a group that prides itself on living in a place without easy risk free intel there sure seem to be a lot of people upset that maximizing their intel potential will mean putting themselves at risk. What risk does the guy take that notices the probes on d-scan? Here is your effortless and risk free intel. If he does not pay attention to sigs or has no scouts on em he deserves to die. You know, you're right, I think we SHOULD disable dscan in wspace as well. And combat probes. If you want to find a ship you should do it the hard way, scan down every anomaly and warp in to put eyes on it directly. Anything short of direct eyes sounds too easy.
Another quality contribution on topic, thank you. |
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