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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3561
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 02:25:00 -
[61] - Quote
The PLEX market has been bought out in its entirety before in the past. They were back to the original prices within a week.
Xenuria wrote:Tippia wrote:Xenuria wrote:I always figured that the idea or at least the goal was to have a market run by and for players. With the reality that CCP CAN and WILL intervene to prevent economic collapse, it is no longer a player market then is it? Yes it is. One does not exclude the other. I disagree, they are in fact mutually exclusive. A player controlled market cannot be such if there are back doors for CCP to artificially change things. The potential for abuse is not only really high but readily demonstrable.
This faux outrage in what is no doubt an attempt to bolster your name for your CSM run next year is amusing, but also pretty silly. CCP "artificially changes things" any time they change anything in a patch that affects something a player might buy, sell, or farm for money, which is pretty much every major patch. Are you going to get outraged that CCP continues to develop the game next? Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
1787
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 02:32:00 -
[62] - Quote
I'm also pretty sure CCP would adore the person silly enough to buy out the plex market, and destroy them all. That'd be who knows how many years of game time "debt" wiped out in a flash.
In fact, I encourage silly people to do just that. Please, show your support for CCP today. Trash a PLEX! The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP). |
Xenuria
The Scope Gallente Federation
856
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 03:07:00 -
[63] - Quote
mynnna wrote:The PLEX market has been bought out in its entirety before in the past. They were back to the original prices within a week. Xenuria wrote:Tippia wrote:Xenuria wrote:I always figured that the idea or at least the goal was to have a market run by and for players. With the reality that CCP CAN and WILL intervene to prevent economic collapse, it is no longer a player market then is it? Yes it is. One does not exclude the other. I disagree, they are in fact mutually exclusive. A player controlled market cannot be such if there are back doors for CCP to artificially change things. The potential for abuse is not only really high but readily demonstrable. This faux outrage in what is no doubt an attempt to bolster your name for your CSM run next year is amusing, but also pretty silly. CCP "artificially changes things" any time they change anything in a patch that affects something a player might buy, sell, or farm for money, which is pretty much every major patch. Are you going to get outraged that CCP continues to develop the game next?
Tell me more about how I was creeping on you this fanfest, despite me not even being in Iceland. I don't need to bolster my name for CSM next year. So long as people like you keep seeing my face in their morning slice of bread, I will have all the advertising I could ever need.
Stay Classy~ CSM 9 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3561
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 03:27:00 -
[64] - Quote
Well, upon realizing the tweet I'd seen earlier in fanfest with the guy's picture that claimed it was you was, in fact, erroneous, the dude turned out to be pretty chill. Thanks for asking! Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Tribal Solidarity
Garoun Investment Bank
41
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 03:44:00 -
[65] - Quote
The act of intervention happens in the free market as we in the real world know it. Governments will also intervene if they feel they need to do.
You're not thinking very clearly. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22153
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 03:56:00 -
[66] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:I don't need to bolster my name for CSM next year. This is true. Just not in the way you are hoping for.
Your spectacular lack of insight intoGǪ wellGǪ everything EVE related, really, rather makes any such bolstering pointless and needless.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Xenuria
The Scope Gallente Federation
856
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 03:58:00 -
[67] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Well, upon realizing the tweet I'd seen earlier in fanfest with the guy's picture that claimed it was you was, in fact, erroneous, the dude turned out to be pretty chill. Thanks for asking!
So as you claim it was a image from twitter following you around during the pub crawl. Fascinating... This is another reason why we needed net neutrality, now images and tweets can just wander about in the real world as they please. It's a travesty I tell you.
Either way I think my "purist" mentality is classing with the practicality of running a real economy inside a giant skinner box. That being said, where is the line?
Where does CCP say "ok this isn't something we need to get involved in" verses "OHGOD OHGOD SEED SEEEEEEED"?
Tippia wrote:Xenuria wrote:I don't need to bolster my name for CSM next year. This is true. Just not in the way you are hoping for. Your spectacular lack of insight intoGǪ wellGǪ everything EVE related, really, rather makes any such bolstering pointless and needless. Have you at least figured out if 20 is more or less than 50 yet?
Were you saying something about Guardian Vexor fits? Oh, right. You are talking about insight into how eve works. CSM 9 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22153
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 04:05:00 -
[68] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Where does CCP say "ok this isn't something we need to get involved in" verses "OHGOD OHGOD SEED SEEEEEEED"? Wherever they want, should they ever seed anything. But since we're talking about PLEX here, seeing isn't really a concern.
Quote:Were you saying something about Guardian Vexor fits? Oh, right. You are talking about insight into how eve works. So have you learned which is larger out of 20 and 50? The rest of the problems you were having with how EVE works were just a continuation of this problem of yoursGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Xenuria
The Scope Gallente Federation
856
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 04:11:00 -
[69] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Xenuria wrote:Where does CCP say "ok this isn't something we need to get involved in" verses "OHGOD OHGOD SEED SEEEEEEED"? Wherever they want, should they ever seed anything. But since we're talking about PLEX here, seeing isn't really a concern. Quote:Were you saying something about Guardian Vexor fits? Oh, right. You are talking about insight into how eve works. So have you learned which is larger out of 20 and 50? The rest of the problems you were having with how EVE works were just a continuation of this problem of yoursGǪ
I think the only way I could possibly respond to this jarring and unrelenting assault on my skill as an eve player is to post an image response.
http://i.imgur.com/PVLTW0A.jpg
CSM 9 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22153
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 04:26:00 -
[70] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:I think the only way I could possibly respond to this jarring and unrelenting assault on my skill as an eve player is to post an image response. So that's a no, then. I'll help (again). 50 is more than 20. You could even put it on a post-it or something for future reference because it's quite a handy thing to know. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
490
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 04:39:00 -
[71] - Quote
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote: "Gross an Inappropriate" You mean they are trying to keep the game fun and trying to keep themselves in business.
I'd have called it 'hypocritical' myself. Eve is a game that touts itself as one where the sandbox rules and the developer takes a hands off approach to in game events to have the players generate their own content. The market is supposedly driven by players, not CCP.
His actions amount to a gross betrayal of that principal and effectively make a lie of EvE's 'sandbox'. |
Schwa Nuts
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
59
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 05:33:00 -
[72] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Well, upon realizing the tweet I'd seen earlier in fanfest with the guy's picture that claimed it was you was, in fact, erroneous, the dude turned out to be pretty chill. Thanks for asking!
Yeah, I'll take responsibility for that. I've never met Xenuria in person, and saw a super creepy looking guy who made my soul go cold when I made eye contact with him. I messed up and made a poor assumption. And for that, I truly apologize... to the guy in the picture. |
Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
399
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 06:03:00 -
[73] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Look.
CCP has embraced Ayn Rand's warped view of a utopia created by people making decisions based on "enlightened self-interest".
In the real world, we have seen how well that works with object lessons like Somalia, Ethiopia, and to some extent Russia. The u.s is heading as fast as it can down that path with their "libertarianism = freedom" insanity.
CCP has decided if someone can corner the market on plexes, which requires something in the high hundreds of billions / low trillions, that is perfectly acceptable, even celebrated, within the Eve universe. We have dozens of acolytes of Ayn Rand rushing to defend this Eve culture as one that is "good for the game", every day on the forum, especially the ones ruthless enough to use the constructs provided by CCP to achieve a dominant position within the game.
But bottom line, the vast majority of humans, no matter how morally flawed we are as a species, recognizes that this kind of behavior should be abhorred, not celebrated. That is why Eve subs are stagnant, even falling (which CCP refuses to acknowledge as they won't release full CSM voting data). CCP has captured the full market of sick individuals that think crushing all others makes for great fun. There is not a lot of movement left in that that market segment. But on the other hand, there is large downside on driving people from the game, the ones that like to play a co-operative, or at the very least., a benign game.
As CCP continues down the path that the null sec cartels have laid out for them, CCP will learn that advertising "be the villain " might not be the best marketing strategy, sort of like New Coke was not that great.
And not one single like was given. Train Scout Drone Operation to V. Now. Or before June 3.
This public service announcement was brought to you by tears. Rivers and lakes of tears wept by people who were too busy griping about the changes to bother using them to their advantage. |
Sibyyl
Brave Collective
1242
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 06:16:00 -
[74] - Quote
If you people don't like Xenuria then don't respond into the thread. If you think the subject matter is objectionable, then provide arguments against it.
Making personality comments or sharing irrelevant Fanfest commentary.. that's a bit petty and not what I expect of somebody on CSM.
Whatever you might think of Dinsdale's opinions, at least the guy can provide a relevant response in thread. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3561
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 06:25:00 -
[75] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:mynnna wrote:Well, upon realizing the tweet I'd seen earlier in fanfest with the guy's picture that claimed it was you was, in fact, erroneous, the dude turned out to be pretty chill. Thanks for asking! So as you claim it was a image from twitter following you around during the pub crawl. Fascinating... This is another reason why we needed net neutrality, now images and tweets can just wander about in the real world as they please. It's a travesty I tell you. Either way I think my "purist" mentality is classing with the practicality of running a real economy inside a giant skinner box. That being said, where is the line? Where does CCP say "ok this isn't something we need to get involved in" verses "OHGOD OHGOD SEED SEEEEEEED"?
You know, you neatly avoided the question. Any patch change that changes anything a player makes, sells, buys or farms is intervening in the player run market, so are you demanding they stop doing that as well? Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1494
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 06:30:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:If you people don't like Xenuria then don't respond into the thread. If you think the subject matter is objectionable, then provide arguments against it.
Making personality comments or sharing irrelevant Fanfest commentary.. that's a bit petty and not what I expect of somebody on CSM.
Whatever you might think of Dinsdale's opinions, at least the guy can provide a relevant response in thread. you are new here aren't you? Tippia is an empty troll most of the time you just ignore Goons just do what they do
The only wrong thing here is that you pay attention to their posts The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1494
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 06:32:00 -
[77] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:If you people don't like Xenuria then don't respond into the thread. If you think the subject matter is objectionable, then provide arguments against it.
Making personality comments or sharing irrelevant Fanfest commentary.. that's a bit petty and not what I expect of somebody on CSM.
Whatever you might think of Dinsdale's opinions, at least the guy can provide a relevant response in thread. you are new here aren't you? Tippia is an empty troll most of the time you just ignore Goons just do what they do
I only read OP and mynnna posts here
The only wrong thing here is that you pay attention to their posts The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1166
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 08:25:00 -
[78] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:This year at fanfest a CCP dev said that when the plex market was peaking, he took it upon himself to artificially modify the game economy. I have a few questions about this.
1. If a player has enough in-game currency to buy all the plex on the Jita market, if that player within their right to do so?
2. If the same player puts all this plex into a cargo container and then blows up said container, has this player violated any rules?
3. Should any of the above listed events occur what safety measures are in place to prevent CCP from counter acting this large scale change in the market?
1) Yes, I have never seen a '9 items or less ' conditional on purchases
2) Rules of common sense, perhaps. Game rules? Nope
3) I will lay odds one or two devs would rub their hands in glee to get to see 'what happens next'
BUT
A dev messed with our economy? Oh lordy, say it aint so. I shall right this wrong and have the scoundrel removed from the company in the same manner that I had Ripard removed for abuse of CSM's awesome power.
Even if the person in question was one of my favourite people to get to talk to and his presentations were well attended anytime he spoke with us mortals. Even if he did not a single thing to the economy in all of 2013 and has specific rules for when he will not be interfere that make Starfleets prime directive look anemic by comparison.
He will be gone, so sayeth I
He will be missed. a lot.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2673
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 08:58:00 -
[79] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Abrazzar wrote:1. Yes 2. No 3. What measures have you taken in case aliens abduct you in the night? This is a legitimate question because its been proven that CCP has directly influenced the market artificially. As gross and inappropriate as it is, it is a reality.
Governments all over the world "regulate" economies vis a vis direct and indirect influence.
If we had a single pure capitalistic market economy in the world with no regulation, poverty would become the new natural selection and you'd see some scary economic trends..... it would make the cruelty of Eve seem like Hello Kitty Online.
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Xenuria
The Scope Gallente Federation
856
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 14:15:00 -
[80] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Xenuria wrote:Abrazzar wrote:1. Yes 2. No 3. What measures have you taken in case aliens abduct you in the night? This is a legitimate question because its been proven that CCP has directly influenced the market artificially. As gross and inappropriate as it is, it is a reality. Governments all over the world "regulate" economies vis a vis direct and indirect influence. If we had a single pure capitalistic market economy in the world with no regulation, poverty would become the new natural selection and you'd see some scary economic trends..... it would make the cruelty of Eve seem like Hello Kitty Online.
You are correct. The problem is the sandbox ideology, artificial market manipulation and CCP's profit motive have a potential to all crash into each other. Even if it never happens it still taints in concept of a pure sandbox in my opinion. I am not known for my practical views on anything. I am known for my integrity and my Rorschach-esk abolitionism when it comes to truth. My views on this may be so far divorced from any practical reality but that isn't relevant.
This is a discussion not a mediation. CSM 9 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22167
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 14:24:00 -
[81] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:The problem is the sandbox ideology, artificial market manipulation and CCP's profit motive have a potential to all crash into each other. How so? They pretty much all pull in the same direction.
Quote:I am known for my integrity and my Rorschach-esk abolitionism when it comes to truth. My views on this may be so far divorced from any practical reality but that isn't relevant. No, and no. Your views are commonly far divorced from any reality, which is what makes them pretty much irrelevant.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Xenuria
The Scope Gallente Federation
856
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 19:20:00 -
[82] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Xenuria wrote:The problem is the sandbox ideology, artificial market manipulation and CCP's profit motive have a potential to all crash into each other. How so? They pretty much all pull in the same direction. Quote:I am known for my integrity and my Rorschach-esk abolitionism when it comes to truth. My views on this may be so far divorced from any practical reality but that isn't relevant. No, and no. Your views are commonly far divorced from any reality, which is what makes them pretty much irrelevant.
Careful Tippia, if you project any more Samsung might show up at your door to buy you out. CSM 9 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
1543
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 19:39:00 -
[83] - Quote
The disparity in levels of intelligence here are vast orders of magnitude. "CAKE CANNOT HOLD UP TO BEING A CHARACTER DAMNIT."
Unsuccessful At Everything |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22170
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 19:40:00 -
[84] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Careful Tippia, if you project any more Samsung might show up at your door to buy you out. I notice that you were unable to answer the question. That doesn't speak very well for the proclaimed integrity or relevanceGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
493
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 20:00:00 -
[85] - Quote
Tippia wrote:How so? They pretty much all pull in the same direction.
As the only person here more batshit insane than either of you, I'll take this one.
As you point out 'pretty much'. I hate to use a slippery slope argument, but basically that's the case here. EvE is marketed as a game different from others in that the company is not calling the tune, the players are. Plex is different than any other market good because it has a real world value.
So, here we have them admitting that they 'fixed' the price of plex. So what's to stop them from manipulating it to drive the price up and both force more poorer players to pay for their subs, while wealthier ones splurge on plex to pad their in game wallets?
See, this is where the sandbox and CCPs income diverge. All they have to do is find balance point where it's high enough to pad their income, but not so high as to drive off players, and then keep it there. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22173
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 20:17:00 -
[86] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, here we have them admitting that they 'fixed' the price of plex. So what's to stop them from manipulating it to drive the price up and both force more poorer players to pay for their subs, while wealthier ones splurge on plex to pad their in game wallets? Self-interest. Doing so means less cash. Historical data has rather debunked the idea that higher prices equates more purchases (if anything, speculation has increased so the actual ETC/PLEX sales would be going down).
This is entirely consistent with the notion that, the higher the price, the fewer the number of accounts people will keep active. They're not going to start paying their own cash for them GÇö that would defeat the purpose of having a GÇ£freeGÇ¥ account. It's also highly debatable that CCP wants more people to use subscriptions than PLEX GÇö why would they want people to pay less for the same service? At most, PLEX creates headaches for the accountants, but they are accountants and therefore not particularly relevant. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1168
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 20:20:00 -
[87] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
So, here we have them admitting that they 'fixed' the price of plex. So what's to stop them from manipulating it to drive the price up and both force more poorer players to pay for their subs, while wealthier ones splurge on plex to pad their in game wallets?
See, this is where the sandbox and CCPs income diverge. All they have to do is find balance point where it's high enough to pad their income, but not so high as to drive off players, and then keep it there.
Um, No
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie9V2P5El0E time stamp 29:39
They fixed the stability, not the price. Dr Eyjo said they do NOT have a specific target for plex prices
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22173
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 20:31:00 -
[88] - Quote
^^ This too. The argument that CCP somehow breaks the sandbox rather trips over the simple fact that the players are still setting the price. All CCP have ever done is try to calm down a price development.
As others have pointed out, if an argument is to be made about CCP's GÇ£manipulatingGÇ¥ the market, it needs to start with when they actually do that, viz. with any alteration of building requirements or base material supplies. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Mag's
the united
17290
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 20:32:00 -
[89] - Quote
Great thread, would read again.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
493
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 21:01:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tippia wrote: ^^ This too. The argument that CCP somehow breaks the sandbox rather trips over the simple fact that the players are still setting the price. All CCP have ever done is try to calm down a price development.
Mike Azariah wrote: They fixed the stability, not the price. Dr Eyjo said they do NOT have a specific target for plex prices
Achem, let me just point something out: to 'stabilize' the market in the manner he's describing, you have to pick a price (probably an average of the previous prices before the market began to fluctuate) and use that as a basis of your attempt to stabilize the market So, NO, the players were not setting the price, players trying to set the price was what was driving the fluctuations that they were trying to correct. CCP manipulating the prices was what, in this case, stabilized it.
While they may not have had a target number going into this, they most certainly did within a very short time span, otherwise the market would have continued to fluctuate. |
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