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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22173
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 21:06:00 -
[91] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Achem, let me just point something out: to 'stabilize' the market in the manner he's describing, you have to pick a price (probably an average of the previous prices before the market began to fluctuate) and use that as a basis of your attempt to stabilize the market GǪor, more accurately, you have to pick a price development based on previous developments, and then let the players pick the price as long as they do it slowly enough. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
493
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 21:25:00 -
[92] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[GǪor, more accurately, you have to pick a price development based on previous developments, and then let the players pick the price as long as they do it slowly enough.
In other words, as long as they set prices within a price range you want them to. Which is called 'price fixing'. |
Carribean Queen
Vadimus Quarrier Works The Big Dirty
27
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Posted - 2014.05.24 21:25:00 -
[93] - Quote
I see they really do let the mental patients have a weekend pass from the institution. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
643
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 21:26:00 -
[94] - Quote
I'm kind-of surprised at how the plex market works and how/why the prices are so high. I bought 6 last night (first time I've ever bought plex) and put them up as sell orders. It only took a few minutes for them to be completely swamped by other sell orders, 0.01isk down. In the hour or so I was watching them I didn't change my order price but I did watch buy/sell. I saw quite a few added as sell but I didn't see any bought. Mine slowly dropped off the bottom of the screen.
From my knowledge of Eve markets it's quite unusual for something with an obviously healthy supply to have risen in price so much. So yea, it's artificial, not demand/supply based.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22173
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 21:27:00 -
[95] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:In other words, as long as they set prices within a price range you want them to. Which is called 'price fixing'. No, for the simple reason that the price is not fixed. The players were still dictating the price.
Victoria Sin wrote:From my knowledge of Eve markets it's quite unusual for something with an obviously healthy supply to have risen in price so much. So yea, it's artificial, not demand/supply based. Yup. If you watch the fanfest presentation linked earlier, you'll see that it's almost entirely speculation GÇö every PLEX put in is resold at least once before it is activated, and lots are being stockpiled. If anything, the volumes would suggest that demand is down slightly (which would also be the expected effect of end-ursers finding themselves priced out of the market) and only inflated by the speculation bubble. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1169
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 21:32:00 -
[96] - Quote
The police do not give you a speeding ticket for being a set distance from an arbitrary point, they do depending on the RATE which you move. It is the change that is the difference, not the instantaneous position.
In the same regard the price of the plex was not the concern but the RATE at which it was changing. That was when he used his tools to adjust our speeding. NOt the price but the rate at which the price was changing.
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3564
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 22:12:00 -
[97] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Tippia wrote:[GǪor, more accurately, you have to pick a price development based on previous developments, and then let the players pick the price as long as they do it slowly enough. In other words, as long as they set prices within a price range you want them to. Which is called 'price fixing'.
If there were an actual fixed price target, plex prices would have stopped rising years ago. Instead they continue to do so.
"Stabilize" in this context means "control rate of rise." Which, is exactly what Mike posted as well Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Marsha Mallow
722
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 22:19:00 -
[98] - Quote
Tippia wrote:At most, PLEX creates headaches for the accountants, but they are accountants and therefore not particularly relevant. Enough with the sly digs! It's Auditors everyone hates, not the lovely beancounters.
Mike Azariah wrote: A dev messed with our economy? Oh lordy, say it aint so. I shall right this wrong and have the scoundrel removed from the company in the same manner that I had Ripard removed for abuse of CSM's awesome power.
Please roleplay in your own forum TO THE RIPARDMOBILE! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
10082
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 22:24:00 -
[99] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Tell me more about how I was creeping on you this fanfest, despite me not even being in Iceland. I don't need to bolster my name for CSM next year. So long as people like you keep seeing my face in their morning slice of bread, I will have all the advertising I could ever need.
Stay Classy~ It's not like you've ever had a lack of people talking about you. The reason you keep losing the election is not that nobody knows who you are, it's that nobody wants you elected. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
76
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 00:06:00 -
[100] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Look.
CCP has embraced Ayn Rand's warped view of a utopia created by people making decisions based on "enlightened self-interest".
In the real world, we have seen how well that works with object lessons like Somalia, Ethiopia, and to some extent Russia. The u.s is heading as fast as it can down that path with their "libertarianism = freedom" insanity.
CCP has decided if someone can corner the market on plexes, which requires something in the high hundreds of billions / low trillions, that is perfectly acceptable, even celebrated, within the Eve universe. We have dozens of acolytes of Ayn Rand rushing to defend this Eve culture as one that is "good for the game", every day on the forum, especially the ones ruthless enough to use the constructs provided by CCP to achieve a dominant position within the game.
But bottom line, the vast majority of humans, no matter how morally flawed we are as a species, recognizes that this kind of behavior should be abhorred, not celebrated. That is why Eve subs are stagnant, even falling (which CCP refuses to acknowledge as they won't release full CSM voting data). CCP has captured the full market of sick individuals that think crushing all others makes for great fun. There is not a lot of movement left in that that market segment. But on the other hand, there is large downside on driving people from the game, the ones that like to play a co-operative, or at the very least., a benign game.
As CCP continues down the path that the null sec cartels have laid out for them, CCP will learn that advertising "be the villain " might not be the best marketing strategy, sort of like New Coke was not that great. Every once in a while a poster will give you a glimpse of their real world beliefs and suddenly their in game insanity makes all kinds of sense. I'm not one who believes 100% that how a person acts in game is how they act out of game, but for some people it's true. The bolded part is an example. You display the false consensus crap in game all the time on these forums (when you pretend to be the appointed speaker of the high sec majority, which is somehow the majority AND the oppressed all at the same time). And it seems you do it out of game too. Is it really so hard to understand that you are merely an individual like the rest of us and can speak for none other than yourself (unless you have the express consent of others to speak for them, like having been elected to something lol)? Is it really that hard to jsut say "I don't like things about CCP and EVE Online" rather than "the majority of us are victimised by CCP and we'll show them!" lol. The underlined bit proves what I already know. It's not EVE that is the problem, it's you. EVE was conceived as a competitive game. It allows 'benign co-operation' but demands competition. Yet you still chose to play it, despite the fact that you knew of should have known that you don't like competitive (dare i say "capitalistic") gameplay. Ironically it's your choosing to play it that has helped prop it up for so long. If you 'I hate EVE, capitalism, Ayn Rand and Freedom but maybe one day CCP will sell it to some socialist or anarchist developers and i'll like it' crowd would stop giving CCP money , what you want to happen may have happened a long time ago lol.
So he's Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson? |
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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
76
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 00:18:00 -
[101] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Xenuria wrote:This is a legitimate question because its been proven that CCP has directly influenced the market artificially. As gross and inappropriate as it is, it is a reality. How are CCP supposed to operate without influencing the market? Everything they do affects the market in some way. I always figured that the idea or at least the goal was to have a market run by and for players. With the reality that CCP CAN and WILL intervene to prevent economic collapse, it is no longer a player market then is it? It's another concept that sounds nice expect for the above mention caveats. Even if the item in question is not PLEX, there is still a very real possibility that CCP would intervene if that item caused enough problems. This is an upsetting and problematic concept for me because I want to think that players earn and loss isk of their own merit of failure.
It's only player run in that most items are traded exclusively by the players. But CCP manipulates their value all the time by changing little numbers in the programming that determine rarity or cost. In the case of PLEX they help bolster demand in game by creating new uses. The fact that they will intervene on this one single item, that is unlike all other items, isn't something to get worked up about.
Don't hate the central bank before understanding the central bank. And certainly don't hate the central bank in a video game. Two monetary operation-like interventions in 3 years isn't much intervention. Where was the outrage when they allowed PLEX to be used for MCT, conversion to Aurum, or beer at FanFest? These were also a form of intervention that resulted in increased demand. It's a game. They intervene in a lot of things. |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
76
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 00:26:00 -
[102] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Tippia wrote:[GǪor, more accurately, you have to pick a price development based on previous developments, and then let the players pick the price as long as they do it slowly enough. In other words, as long as they set prices within a price range you want them to. Which is called 'price fixing'.
The trend is allowed to go where the players take it. But if they see something happening using data that we are not privy to, they may intervene in order to bring it back to trend. Even then, its not a day or two here and there event that they are concerned with. It was weeks after whatever happened in March when they finally intervened with an unknown "small number" of PLEX. It's not price fixing, which has a specific definition. It is maintaining stability. A rising price is still stable. Spikes related to manipulation or changes in game mechanics/content are where they step in.
By the way - Definition of Price Fixing (super quick Googly search) the maintaining of prices at a certain level by agreement between competing sellers.
I'm pretty sure that's not what CCP is doing. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
497
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 01:32:00 -
[103] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote: By the way - Definition of Price Fixing (super quick Googly search) the maintaining of prices at a certain level by agreement between competing sellers.
I'm pretty sure that's not what CCP is doing.
That's called horizontal price fixing. What went on here was closer to Vertical price fixing, where the manufacturer manipulates the retail price of a good. It does not actually have to be a specific set price (contrary to the name) but can include setting price ranges. In this case it was brought under control by undercutting the price the players set by releasing a certain amount of plex at a lower price if the price spiked above the 'acceptable' limit. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22181
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 01:45:00 -
[104] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:What went on here was closer to Vertical price fixing, where the manufacturer manipulates the retail price of a good. It does not actually have to be a specific set price (contrary to the name) but can include setting price ranges. So it wasn't vertical price fixing either, since no price range was set and no price was manipulated.
Quote:In this case it was brought under control by undercutting the price the players set by releasing a certain amount of plex at a lower price if the price spiked above the 'acceptable' limit. GǪexcept that there was no price limit, just a speed limit. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Kiryen O'Bannon
Thrall Nation Brave Collective
113
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 01:54:00 -
[105] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Look.
CCP has embraced Ayn Rand's warped view of a utopia created by people making decisions based on "enlightened self-interest".
In the real world, we have seen how well that works with object lessons like Somalia, Ethiopia, and to some extent Russia. The u.s is heading as fast as it can down that path with their "libertarianism = freedom" insanity.
The U.S. is going down a path of more socialism, not more libertarianism. Turns out victim politics and handouts win elections - and calling mainstream political ideas insanity because you disagree with them is exactly the sort of absolutist extremism that makes government such a circus these days. Then again, you evidently think Canada has a "regime" proving you're far too spoiled to be taken seriously. As for Ethiopia, Somalia, and Russia thinking any of those nations are in their situation because of anything to do with libertarianism or Rand is a case study in revisionism.
Quote:But bottom line, the vast majority of humans, no matter how morally flawed we are as a species,
We aren't.
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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
76
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 02:13:00 -
[106] - Quote
I don't agree with most of the jib jab here that wants to attribute the very few number of interventions (2 in 3 years) that CCP has conducted to some kind of price manipulation. But...
I'm also not going to buy totally into their view that they don't have a price target. I think they do, but it isn't some arbitrary target based on what generates them the most income or any other conspiracy-theory based reason. They want the price to reflect competition with RMT sellers in order to deter buyers from supporting them. So basically they just don't want the price to go much below the point where a player may find it more economically advantageous to buy from an illegal seller. So do they have an upside price target? No, probably not at this point. According to NoizyGamer its about in line with ISK sellers. Does CCP have a floor price? Yeah, I do. And they got the price up to where they want it through creating new marginal demand via the uses of PLEX over time.
Of course, to buy that theory you have to buy into the concept that PLEX are a tool to combat RMT. Not that they are a gift to players to "Play to Pay" |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 02:20:00 -
[107] - Quote
*sips water*
Hi Xenuria!
This is the wrong forum for your topic!
Try Market Discussions instead.
I suggest requesting a lock.
Btw...
Your old portrait looked much better.
Seek realism! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4492860 Killmails for Wrecks!! Ganker tears, best tears!
White light, shining bright! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
10084
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 02:50:00 -
[108] - Quote
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:The U.S. is going down a path of more socialism And it's a good thing. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
498
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 03:17:00 -
[109] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So it wasn't vertical price fixing either, since no price range was set and no price was manipulated.
Except that they more or less state they did exactly those things to 'stabilize' the market. The 'range' in this case is the criteria they established before they started 'releasing' plex to undercut prices and slow the rate at which the market was climbing. Without a target number there's no frame of reference to know when to release plex and at what prices to slow the climbing market price.
And since they did 'release' plex to drive down the price, prices were in fact, manipulated, via the simple expedient of undercutting the higher prices to force the price down if they want to move goods. People who trade short term had to reduce their own asking prices in order to move product.
James Amril-Kesh wrote: And it's a good thing.
Yes and no. but that's a discussion for another forum. |
D20 Rollings
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 03:22:00 -
[110] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:
*sips water*
Hi Xenuria!
This is the wrong forum for your topic!
Try Market Discussions instead.
I suggest requesting a lock.
Btw...
Your old portrait looked much better.
Seek realism!
First you need a red skirt, now you want a lock. Autobots transform eh? |
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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
498
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 03:53:00 -
[111] - Quote
D20 Rollings wrote: First you need a red skirt, now you want a lock. Autobots transform eh?
LOLICONS TRANSFORM AND MAKE OUT!
Sorry, was the first thing I thought when I read your post. |
D20 Rollings
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 03:58:00 -
[112] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:D20 Rollings wrote: First you need a red skirt, now you want a lock. Autobots transform eh?
LOLICONS TRANSFORM AND MAKE OUT! Sorry, was the first thing I thought when I read your post.
MEGATHRONE! Sorry Optimus, I saw your chair was from walmart. I made a superior one! |
Xenuria
The Scope Gallente Federation
857
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 06:27:00 -
[113] - Quote
It is true that I want a red skirt that actually fits however I do not see what if anything that has to do with EvE Online Economy.
If there is even the smallest chance that CCP would intervene at all to prevent the market from crashing then it flies in the face of "the sandbox". That's all I am saying. CSM 9 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1170
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 06:36:00 -
[114] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:
If there is even the smallest chance that CCP would intervene at all to prevent the market from crashing then it flies in the face of "the sandbox". That's all I am saying.
So for the purity of the sand you would watch it all burn until it was a plane of glass.
Well, in this I disagree.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Prince Kobol
1788
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 07:41:00 -
[115] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Xenuria wrote:
If there is even the smallest chance that CCP would intervene at all to prevent the market from crashing then it flies in the face of "the sandbox". That's all I am saying.
So for the purity of the sand you would watch it all burn until it was a plane of glass. Well, in this I disagree. m
Well if you want a true sandbox then yes, you have to be prepared to watch it burn if the players chose to burn it.
Saying that Eve has never been a true sandbox game, CCP have, are and always will be on standby with a pooper scooper. |
Xenuria
The Scope Gallente Federation
857
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 18:04:00 -
[116] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Xenuria wrote:
If there is even the smallest chance that CCP would intervene at all to prevent the market from crashing then it flies in the face of "the sandbox". That's all I am saying.
So for the purity of the sand you would watch it all burn until it was a plane of glass. Well, in this I disagree. m
"The Fate of Destruction Is Also The Joy Of Rebirth"
A true sandbox means that even after it becomes a plane of glass, it is still within the ability and choice of players to build something new. I don't desire destruction, I desire freedom. CSM 9 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
78
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 18:18:00 -
[117] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Xenuria wrote:
If there is even the smallest chance that CCP would intervene at all to prevent the market from crashing then it flies in the face of "the sandbox". That's all I am saying.
So for the purity of the sand you would watch it all burn until it was a plane of glass. Well, in this I disagree. m "The Fate of Destruction Is Also The Joy Of Rebirth" A true sandbox means that even after it becomes a plane of glass, it is still within the ability and choice of players to build something new. I don't desire destruction, I desire freedom.
You people (yeah you) who just can't seem to grasp the concept of a sandbox. It's not a place in which you can do anything you want. You can only do what you want within the confines the owner of the sandbox allows. Further, it doesn't imply the owner of the sandbox won't make changes to the sand or the box or that they won't act to keep sandbox dwellers from doing things that hurt the long-term viability of the sandbox. Quit thinking this is some open world without constraints. CCP has been quite clear about how and when they will intervene in terms of PLEX. They have done so on a very limited basis. To make an issue of it only proves a lack of understanding of both their stated goals as well as the environment in which you think you are playing in. |
Xenuria
The Scope Gallente Federation
857
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 18:25:00 -
[118] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Xenuria wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Xenuria wrote:
If there is even the smallest chance that CCP would intervene at all to prevent the market from crashing then it flies in the face of "the sandbox". That's all I am saying.
So for the purity of the sand you would watch it all burn until it was a plane of glass. Well, in this I disagree. m "The Fate of Destruction Is Also The Joy Of Rebirth" A true sandbox means that even after it becomes a plane of glass, it is still within the ability and choice of players to build something new. I don't desire destruction, I desire freedom. You people (yeah you) who just can't seem to grasp the concept of a sandbox. It's not a place in which you can do anything you want. You can only do what you want within the confines the owner of the sandbox allows. Further, it doesn't imply the owner of the sandbox won't make changes to the sand or the box or that they won't act to keep sandbox dwellers from doing things that hurt the long-term viability of the sandbox. Quit thinking this is some open world without constraints. CCP has been quite clear about how and when they will intervene in terms of PLEX. They have done so on a very limited basis. To make an issue of it only proves a lack of understanding of both their stated goals as well as the environment in which you think you are playing in.
Who is that you think owns the sandbox? CSM 9 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1174
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 18:48:00 -
[119] - Quote
Oh I love the question 'who owns the sandbox'
It often comes from the same sort of person who tells me that they 'pay my salary' because I am a public employee and so I should do whatever it is they wish.
Easily answered. If CCP decides to shut the doors tomorrow, could we stop them? No?
If we walk away from the game, all of us. Could they leave the servers running anyways? They probably wouldn't but the choice would always be theirs, it is their box, we play in it and pay for the privelege.
We play in their sandbox, they get to say where the edges are. What toys we can bring into the box and what we are allowed to take out of it. I am amazed how much freedom the Eve Market has, how little they actually interfere.
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
78
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 18:48:00 -
[120] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:Xenuria wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Xenuria wrote:
If there is even the smallest chance that CCP would intervene at all to prevent the market from crashing then it flies in the face of "the sandbox". That's all I am saying.
So for the purity of the sand you would watch it all burn until it was a plane of glass. Well, in this I disagree. m "The Fate of Destruction Is Also The Joy Of Rebirth" A true sandbox means that even after it becomes a plane of glass, it is still within the ability and choice of players to build something new. I don't desire destruction, I desire freedom. You people (yeah you) who just can't seem to grasp the concept of a sandbox. It's not a place in which you can do anything you want. You can only do what you want within the confines the owner of the sandbox allows. Further, it doesn't imply the owner of the sandbox won't make changes to the sand or the box or that they won't act to keep sandbox dwellers from doing things that hurt the long-term viability of the sandbox. Quit thinking this is some open world without constraints. CCP has been quite clear about how and when they will intervene in terms of PLEX. They have done so on a very limited basis. To make an issue of it only proves a lack of understanding of both their stated goals as well as the environment in which you think you are playing in. Who is that you think owns the sandbox?
If it isn't abundantly clear that CCP owns the sandbox then I'm not sure what more can be said. They don't pay you to play in it, you pay them. Pretty clear who owns it. |
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