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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.06.02 19:18:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 02/06/2006 19:19:30
One of the main things that makes EW "overpowered" is the time it takes to relock an enemy after being jammed. So here's the idea.
Instead of being unable to lock targets when jammed, one is simply unable to activate modules on targets. So, when the jamming expires, no relocking needs to be done--one simply clicks on his guns/etc again. This would also apply to drones and the like.
To make this more effective, jammer cycle time could also be reduced to 10 seconds (and cap needs adjusted accordingly).
A comparison of current system and the new idea's system:
3 5-strength jammers against a BS with 24 sensor strength = ~50% chance to jam Lets say the BS fires every 4 seconds, and the jam works twice and fails twice. Lets also say that the BS being jammed has a lock time of 5 seconds.
Old system: Jam success! --20 seconds of nothing-- Jam failure! --5 second relock-- --15 seconds of firing = 3 volleys-- Jam success! --20 seconds of nothing-- Jam failure! --5 second relock-- --15 seconds of firing = 3 volleys-- Total volleys: 6 out of 20
New system: Jam success! --20 seconds of nothing-- Jam failure! --20 seconds of firing = 5 volleys-- Jam success! --20 seconds of nothing-- Jam failure! --20 seconds of firing = 5 volleys-- Total volleys: 10 out of 20
IMO this is a bit fairer, and doesn't drastically nerf EW in any way.
--Proud member of the [23]-- Want a turn-based online game sophisticated enough for an EVE player? Try Ferion. |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.02 19:21:00 -
[2]
Most of the EW ideas can be adapted to prevent module activation on a ship without needing anything else, but I am against this because there would be no UI indicator - and CCP provide no appropriate UI clue - for it.
As to the rest, I favour partial jams because they cut your lock on certain ships, and multiple ships which are partial jammed will have at least some problems focusing fire, and will have to engage multiple enemies. Which is desireable.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.06.02 19:24:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Most of the EW ideas can be adapted to prevent module activation on a ship without needing anything else, but I am against this because there would be no UI indicator - and CCP provide no appropriate UI clue - for it.
There's a big gray bar above your circular GUI whenever you get jammed that says "Jamming"...
I assume that if they implemented this, they could easily add an even more obvious indicator.
--Proud member of the [23]-- Want a turn-based online game sophisticated enough for an EVE player? Try Ferion. |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.02 19:29:00 -
[4]
When you GET jammed, you have a small, hard-to-see indicator in a bad place, yes.
Where's the moveable status bar? Where are the red icons? Where's the depiction of if a jam attack has affected the target?
No, the UI is simply not up to it.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.06.02 19:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Maya Rkell When you GET jammed, you have a small, hard-to-see indicator in a bad place, yes.
Where's the moveable status bar? Where are the red icons? Where's the depiction of if a jam attack has affected the target?
No, the UI is simply not up to it.
All of these problems equally affect the system as it is--I don't see how a UI, which can be changed, should prevent the devs from properly balancing the game.
We all know you have a vendetta against the "horrible" EVE UI and would like big flashy popups (like "WHAM" or "POW" or "JAM SUCCESS!"), but this is not a reason to rail against a perfectly reasonable idea.
--Proud member of the [23]-- Want a turn-based online game sophisticated enough for an EVE player? Try Ferion. |
Zeros Omega
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Posted - 2006.06.02 20:03:00 -
[6]
*has corp mate jam* *cycles guns on an unsupsecting incomming target* *corp mate turns off jammers, person dies*.... this is open to way too much sploiting in my opinion
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Xori Ruscuv
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Posted - 2006.06.02 20:09:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Maya Rkell When you GET jammed, you have a small, hard-to-see indicator in a bad place, yes.
Where's the moveable status bar? Where are the red icons? Where's the depiction of if a jam attack has affected the target?
No, the UI is simply not up to it.
Why have a movable status bar? Why have red icons?
I will agree that it would be nice to have a visual clue to see if something has affected the target. It would also be nice to have some sort of visual clue as to what you are afflicted by (thinking Elder Scrolls III style, just a little icon in the lower right corner.
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Dampfschlaghammer
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Posted - 2006.06.02 20:20:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Dampfschlaghammer on 02/06/2006 20:20:44 Great Idea Dark Shikari, really like the system you suggest.
One thing I do not like about ewar is the 20 seconds time interval length. I think this is much too decisive in small skirmishes - two lucky jams can be more important than proper set-ups and good tactics.
Which is why I thought about reducing jamming cycles to 5-10 second intervals - it wasn't really feasible with people having to relock.
But with your system, this is no longer a problem, so I suggest adding a reduction of jamming time to such a change.
Keep in mind that the average time jammed would remain the same compared to a 20 second interval, but the variance of the outcomes would be greatly decreased, making battles less luck-dependent.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.02 20:44:00 -
[9]
Xori Ruscuv,
Because you should be able to know what's going on. Quite simply, the UI MISERABLY fails to keep you informed, especially when (as today) you often have to turn all "effects" off to get a deacent framerate REGARDLESS how good your PC is.
And STUFF little icons and suble clues. Give people nice, bright, visible warnings. These things are IMPORTANT.
Making ECM weaker just encourages gank and blobs...I can't support it, and I do strongly support a partial jam.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.02 20:58:00 -
[10]
So, when target jammed all targeted modules should get a red underlay (as in stopping firing) New sig coming soonÖ In the next (content) patch Information Warfare will be nerfed. How sad, it wasn't even useful to begin with. |
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.06.02 21:00:00 -
[11]
One of the better ideas out there really. :)
13 -_- |
Morreia
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Posted - 2006.06.02 21:09:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Morreia on 02/06/2006 21:10:32 You get a nice visual when your jamming on somene has failed.
Its a increasingly large red bar engulfing a curved grey bar at the bottom of your screen. If you dont notice that it will be shortly follwed by a big flash in the centre of your screen. If you don't notice that then they send you an eve-mail telling you what has happened and a name of a good optician.
I know this isnt ideal but when you have a dedicated Ewar ship it is quite often what happens.
Oh yea and Maya, what do you class as a decent framerate?
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.06.02 21:11:00 -
[13]
Please stop discussing the UI... if you want to discuss this seperate issue, please make a seperate thread on the topic. This is not relevent to the OP.
--Proud member of the [23]-- Want a turn-based online game sophisticated enough for an EVE player? Try Ferion. |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.02 21:21:00 -
[14]
It's EVERYTHING to do with the feasbility of this idea, I'm afraid. Because silently failing to shoot things would bluntly suck. It's produced discussion of how the UI could accomodate the idea...which is GOOD.
Morreia, my modules activating within a few seconds of pressing them.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.06.02 21:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Maya Rkell It's EVERYTHING to do with the feasbility of this idea, I'm afraid. Because silently failing to shoot things would bluntly suck. It's produced discussion of how the UI could accomodate the idea...which is GOOD.
Morreia, my modules activating within a few seconds of pressing them.
The UI has to be the least important in this thread! Use your imagination, you get jammed as before but your weapons get grayed out or your targets get grayed out..
13 -_- |
Tassi
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Posted - 2006.06.02 21:46:00 -
[16]
There is 1 point where wow pwns eve, in the UI section. To be able to design your own UI is just AWESOME, dunno why eve doesn't have such a system
Every idea that nerfs ECM is a good idea.
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Leandro Salazar
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Posted - 2006.06.02 21:48:00 -
[17]
How the UI is supposed to be such a big issue in this is beyond me. Then again most of what Maya Rkell posts is beyond me, so I guess everything is in order.
Oh and the original idea is very good imho.
---------
Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.02 22:01:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 02/06/2006 22:00:57 GREY? Grey is NOT obvious. You need deacent visual warnings.
And no, it is THE most critical thing. What you don't need is "I died because I couldn't tell what was going on" MORE than today...and lots of people suffer that today.
Leandro, shrug, that...isn't my problem.
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Cmdr Sy
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Posted - 2006.06.02 22:53:00 -
[19]
I don't like the idea, because of the implications for fleet battles. It means if you target-jam the fleet commanders, they don't have to relock their targets, and more to the point, are provided with a nice up-to-the-second readout of just how fast the primary, secondary, etc are going down, and whether they have called a super-tank by mistake and need to switch target.
This doesn't just screw up the usefulness of EW in blobfests, even a decent 10-20 per side fight is going to suffer from the inability to deprive the target callers of information.
Full target jam EW isn't about disabling guns, it is about inflicting total sensory deprivation, confusion and a recovery time which depends on the individual skill of the player. I'm fine with that.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.06.02 22:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Cmdr Sy I don't like the idea, because of the implications for fleet battles. It means if you target-jam the fleet commanders, they don't have to relock their targets, and more to the point, are provided with a nice up-to-the-second readout of just how fast the primary, secondary, etc are going down, and whether they have called a super-tank by mistake and need to switch target.
This doesn't just screw up the usefulness of EW in blobfests, even a decent 10-20 per side fight is going to suffer from the inability to deprive the target callers of information.
Full target jam EW isn't about disabling guns, it is about inflicting total sensory deprivation, confusion and a recovery time which depends on the individual skill of the player. I'm fine with that.
But with the current system, you spend half your time free from ECM... relocking.
How about remove the damage bars too then?
--Proud member of the [23]--
Ferion kicks major arse. |
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.02 23:00:00 -
[21]
Fuzz out the picture, sure.
Again, I'd like to tie this into partial jams...tbh it looks pretty good to combine the too from my POV. (because you KNOW what's jammed, it visibly ties up targeting slots, etc)
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Daos Leghki
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Posted - 2006.06.02 23:45:00 -
[22]
For the love of God, Maya, stop talking about the UI and partial jams. UI and partial jams all have to do with both the current system and the one DS is supporting. Please make your own thread and don't derail this one.
I like this idea, however, you would have to address the suddenly increased usefulness of drones. Being able to tell your drones to attack various targets is more important for certain ships, and could change the balance of the mod. Otherwise, good.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.06.02 23:48:00 -
[23]
It's a thread on EW. I'm discussing EW. Why are you making posts in a EW thread to complain that I'm posting about EW?
"you would have to address the suddenly increased usefulness of drones"
True. And not something I'd previously considered with partial jams. But...I'm mot overly concerned since it's forcing you to split fire anyway.
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Vathar
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Posted - 2006.06.02 23:54:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Daos Leghki For the love of God, Maya, stop talking about the UI and partial jams. UI and partial jams all have to do with both the current system and the one DS is supporting. Please make your own thread and don't derail this one.
I like this idea, however, you would have to address the suddenly increased usefulness of drones. Being able to tell your drones to attack various targets is more important for certain ships, and could change the balance of the mod. Otherwise, good.
Well, remove the "engage target" option when you're jammed ... apart from this, I really like this idea.
- Reduced cycle times - Target lock isn't lost - Can't activate any module at target, currently activated modules deactivate - Can't send drones at target - Health status becomes greyed out (possibly entire target icon becomes greyed out to make things easier to notice)
Does this sound good? ____________
Space Shaman
Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway |
Cmdr Sy
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Posted - 2006.06.03 00:04:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dark Shikari But with the current system, you spend half your time free from ECM... relocking.
How about remove the damage bars too then?
Remove the damage bars as a minimum, yes. If people are target-jammed, they shouldn't see the health of stuff they had locked.
I wouldn't say I spend half the time, usually only takes a couple of seconds to relock the right targets, if they're BS that is.
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Vathar
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Posted - 2006.06.03 10:07:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cmdr Sy I wouldn't say I spend half the time, usually only takes a couple of seconds to relock the right targets, if they're BS that is.
Yup, in fleet where multiple sensor boosters are the norm. But take a close range BS vs an HAC (who said Ishtar) and then it becomes a real pain to relock! ____________
Space Shaman
Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway |
Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.06.03 10:21:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Maya Rkell It's EVERYTHING to do with the feasbility of this idea, I'm afraid. Because silently failing to shoot things would bluntly suck. It's produced discussion of how the UI could accomodate the idea...which is GOOD.
Morreia, my modules activating within a few seconds of pressing them.
What about RED or PURPLE or PINK for that matter, or just a gigant popup? Would that satisfy you? Your whining is stupid!
BEHOLD FUTURE OF EVE IF MAYA COMES IN CHARGE! http://www.iskrem.net/files/eve/jam.png
13 -_- |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.06.03 10:28:00 -
[28]
Unfortunately this idea only helps assuming you actually fail a jam cycle totally. Multiple jammers are the real problem, with ships throwing on a single jammer, or two, being less of an issue. This would help in the latter case only.
I personally like the ideas discussed last time this was brought up a lot better - longer reactivation delays for jammers, and modules that set your max locked targets to 1 as a counter. Testy's Eve Blog, Updated 01/06/06
Caldari Alt for sale!
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Yurii Chan
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Posted - 2006.06.03 10:32:00 -
[29]
i scanned the thread to see if this was mentioned
what of the cloakers who jam so they can reactivate their cloak and high tail it out? sure once jammed the cloaker can just warp away and whatnot but the way the system works now, say im sitting in my stealth bomber (who uses those anyway) and i get locked, now i activate my jammers and hope i get lucky enough for the other ship to lose lock so i can cloak and move.
the EW system as it stands is fine in my book. Having to relock a target after being jammed is how it should work imo. its almost like "captain, we're being jammed!" "well, reboot the hardware and fix it! switch frequencies" or something of the sort... so a relock is not only mandatory but also warranted.. at least, thats my 2 cents...
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