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Thomas Orca
Intaki Armaments Important Internet Spaceship League
18
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Posted - 2011.11.17 22:56:00 -
[61] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:youre completely wrong about the Deimos, and i dont have to justify myself to you, and "prove" that i was testing as well.
the Deimos does a pithy ~300dps with antimatter in a full rack of 200's at about 15-20km, with next to no tank, and a crapload of tracking and damage mods. u have any idea how easily a shield-tanked Cynabal tears up a rail Deimos? u wanna compare it to the pulse Zealot? dont even try noob.
what have you been testing, im just curious? did you actually test any of these ships against their Minnie and Amarr counterparts? against the Drake? the Deimos is ok only in your fantasies. the Talos is the shittiest tier 3 BC, and while the Naga might be "ok", large rails dont even compare to mega pulses (with scorch), arties, and even large AC's at 70km (LAWL). stop spreading misinformation.
The Deimos actually is Ok with current Gallente buffs. It finally has the room to fit what needs to actually function in a PVP HAC role.
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zama118
FACTS on EVE RED.OverLord
5
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Posted - 2011.11.17 22:58:00 -
[62] - Quote
+1 for sure
lots more fun now glent ships are |
Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
36
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Posted - 2011.11.17 23:12:00 -
[63] - Quote
I really don't see how CCP can do more without running the risk of really unbalancing the game going the other direction, making hybrids TOO powerful. Maybe more will need to be done in the future to futher buff hybrids, but only time will tell.
In the meantime, I've dusted off my Vindicator and Vigilant, (and my Rokh), and I'm ready to own. |
ClusterFook
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.11.18 00:06:00 -
[64] - Quote
Well personally i think if they switched TE stats and nerfed scorch a tad* the problems would be less severe.
so switch TE from 15% optimal and 30% falloff to 30% optimal and 15% falloff, then nerf scorch a bit would be just fine with me :) |
London
27
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Posted - 2011.11.18 00:33:00 -
[65] - Quote
After years of waiting for this, I just want to see how it will play out in the real sandbox of tranquillity before passing full judgement.
It looks good so far.
EVE: Create a Starship - Naga Frigate |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
149
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Posted - 2011.11.18 02:51:00 -
[66] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:I think blaster ships will become a new favorite in station games (where you tend to be less than 5km from your target and neither one moves much).
you mean as it is now? station games is the only place where blaster ships can be used because you don't have to die trying to get close to the target.
Thomas Orca wrote:The Deimos actually is Ok with current Gallente buffs. It finally has the room to fit what needs to actually function in a PVP HAC role.
but, will there be a reason to use it over a pulse zealot? or a vagabond? or even a beam zealot or munnin if you try to go rail with it? hell, for sniping is there a reason to even use it over a cerberus? [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Hebsley
Dark Riders Games of Divinity
0
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Posted - 2011.11.18 03:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
Hybrid changes are definitely improvements, However amar and Minmitar are still better suited for pvp. With all the game changes in the last few years the entire Hybrid platform can be thrown out and rewritten from scratch.
Nice to see effort, but it might be to little to late. |
Miang Sun
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.18 04:34:00 -
[68] - Quote
The only fix for hybrids is a redesign. |
Spider Fiona
Thunder Mercenary Army
1
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Posted - 2011.11.18 04:42:00 -
[69] - Quote
Not sure about the change but at least it is a good thing for the forgotten stuff. +1 |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
208
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Posted - 2011.11.18 05:04:00 -
[70] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:
but, will there be a reason to use it over a pulse zealot? or a vagabond? or even a beam zealot or munnin if you try to go rail with it? hell, for sniping is there a reason to even use it over a cerberus?
Why use it over a cerberus: Instant damage
Why use it over one of the other ships:
1) its all you can fly
2) at what is long range for beams its got higher DPS because it uses a shorter range ammo
3) shorter reload cycles means less down time between DPS
4) its short range guns can actually now compete dps wise with AC's, since most often times AC's are trying to shoot from deep fall off. Couple that with the fact that smart fitters will realize that most gallent ships have a built in damage bonus and a smart fitter will actually go towards buffing range (TE's) instead of DPS to better apply their already higher DPS.
Basically if you can alter the way you think about fitting from what is considered 'traditional' fitting, you'll find the Blaster ships competing nicely with their counterparts.
Caldari will fit Mag Stabs, Gallente will fit Tracking Enhancers (and still come out doing sweet DPS), Rails, well rails just pretty much own right now, the ability to use AntiMatter out to extreme ranges means that no, you don't use all the range potential of the rail, but the range you do use, will put out SIGNIFICANTLY higher DPS numbers than the beam or artillery counterparts, with the side effect of Rails out tracking Arty by a mile. |
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
358
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Posted - 2011.11.18 05:06:00 -
[71] - Quote
CCP said these wherent final they're just at an uncomfortable point where they dont know if they need to tweak it more or not.
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Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
176
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Posted - 2011.11.18 07:03:00 -
[72] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Learn to fit?
dont be a troll. you know perfectly well that there's no reason to fly a rail Deimos over a pulse Zealot, Cane, Cynabal, Vaga, etc. this is my point. if i cant fit a 1600mm with EANM's in the lows, and maintain 400-500 turret dps at 20-30km, then im not flying the Deimos.
if im gonna mount blasters on the Deimos, i might as well a BC, or the navy vex with sentries, which gives me more applied dps for the same EHP. |
FlameGlow
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
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Posted - 2011.11.18 07:46:00 -
[73] - Quote
Eagle is still short on PG, it should be boosted if there are any chances of it seeing any use - fit rails and T2 MWD on it and it's short by 10 grid, do same on Deimos - 130 grid free, arty Munnin - 50 grid free, heavy beam Zealot - 70 grid free I think it needs about 40-60 base grid more at least, reduce CPU in exchange by 20-30, there is too much
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Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
16
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Posted - 2011.11.18 08:53:00 -
[74] - Quote
Would say I'm fairly content if those are the final changes. Railguns are now slightly more viable in a PvE situation. The reduced cap and fitting requirements are a major relief.
In combination with the destroyer buffs that are rolling in on the 29th, I can see Rail Catalysts and Rail Cormorants actually playing a role in small fleet situations. |
Justine Valentine
Unknown Unnamed Corp
1
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Posted - 2011.11.18 09:16:00 -
[75] - Quote
I am happy, because my Rokh, Megathron, Vindicator and Proteus will do more dmg. Simple as that.
Is there any EFT like tool updated with the new hybrid changes so I can see theoretical DPS increase vs present numbers on these ships? |
DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
344
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Posted - 2011.11.18 09:21:00 -
[76] - Quote
Justine Valentine wrote: Is there any EFT like tool updated with the new hybrid changes so I can see theoretical DPS increase vs present numbers on these ships?
pyfa has some pretty recent numbers. Add 5% to blaster DPS, 10% to rail tracking, ignore the Naga and add a 25m3 drone bay to the Talos. http://dl.evefit.org/eve-test/singularity-311120/pyfa-1.0.6-singularity-311120-win32.zip
All the fitting requirements are correctly updated, though. Some Gallentean ships look really nice. Unfortunately, most Caldari hybrid ships are still terrible. |
Justine Valentine
Unknown Unnamed Corp
1
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Posted - 2011.11.18 09:28:00 -
[77] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Justine Valentine wrote: Is there any EFT like tool updated with the new hybrid changes so I can see theoretical DPS increase vs present numbers on these ships?
pyfa has some pretty recent numbers. Add 5% to blaster DPS, 10% to rail tracking, ignore the Naga and add a 25m3 drone bay to the Talos. http://dl.evefit.org/eve-test/singularity-311120/pyfa-1.0.6-singularity-311120-win32.zipAll the fitting requirements are correctly updated, though. Some Gallentean ships look really nice. Unfortunately, most Caldari hybrid ships are still terrible.
Thanks alot :) I was observing their thread and I am gonna change my EFT with PYFA today. Too bad their website is currently down :( Can't download it for now. |
Rod Blaine
Gilded Goose Brokerage
6
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Posted - 2011.11.18 09:33:00 -
[78] - Quote
Miang Sun wrote:The only fix for hybrids is a redesign. this
but ccp never redesigns anything, they just add useless shiny **** to distract you. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
224
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Posted - 2011.11.18 09:35:00 -
[79] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Learn to fit?
dont be a troll. you know perfectly well that there's no reason to fly a rail Deimos over a pulse Zealot, Cane, Cynabal, Vaga, etc. this is my point. if i cant fit a 1600mm with EANM's in the lows, and maintain 400-500 turret dps at 20-30km, then im not flying the Deimos. if im gonna mount blasters on the Deimos, i might as well fly a BC, or the navy vex with sentries, which gives me more applied dps for the same EHP.
Hey I flat out offered to go toe to toe testing with anybody who wants right now on the test server, set a time and a date and we can buy hundreds of ships and fight over and over until you feel you've seen enough of the hybrid changes.
If you're for some reason scared to or worried about losing on the test server theres not much i can do to help you out, but I'm willing to go the extra mile because I actually believe what I put in print.
I believe your failures are in your fitting, I'm willing to go round and round to prove it, in actual fights.
Fly as many hurricanes as you want, I killed about 9 yesterday in buffer tanked deimos's.
Evemail me the time and day you want to do it and we'll see how you fare.
EDIT: And i guess you don't fly a cane cynabal or pulse zealot either because none of those holds 500 dps at 30km in any realistic environment. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
149
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Posted - 2011.11.18 12:45:00 -
[80] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: 4) its short range guns can actually now compete dps wise with AC's, since most often times AC's are trying to shoot from deep fall off. Couple that with the fact that smart fitters will realize that most gallent ships have a built in damage bonus and a smart fitter will actually go towards buffing range (TE's) instead of DPS to better apply their already higher DPS.
Basically if you can alter the way you think about fitting from what is considered 'traditional' fitting, you'll find the Blaster ships competing nicely with their counterparts.
Caldari will fit Mag Stabs, Gallente will fit Tracking Enhancers (and still come out doing sweet DPS), Rails, well rails just pretty much own right now, the ability to use AntiMatter out to extreme ranges means that no, you don't use all the range potential of the rail, but the range you do use, will put out SIGNIFICANTLY higher DPS numbers than the beam or artillery counterparts, with the side effect of Rails out tracking Arty by a mile.
so from your view that means that:
A) basically blaster ships with damage mods are bad fits now? since I'll need to cram TE's on them and in the case of the deimos that means 2-3 lowslots of the 6 it has, so that it becomes a bad version of the vagabond? I mean it still has mobility issues, so that means that the lowslots are either for damage mods (and still be slower and have less damage projection than the vagabond) or nano (which will need 2 slots for to even compete with a vaga without any kind of nano even after changes), or going with tank and simply failing to reach the vaga every time.
ok it is a bit of a pigeonholing, a vaga vs deimos competition, but with a 2TE deimos + null and HAC 4, the falloff + optimal for a deimos is on the 24km range, and on the vaga is at about 40km range, and that's comparing a deimos with neutrons and a vagabond with 220's. atm without any speed changes, the vaga is a whole 800m/sec faster than the deimos, and that's not even using any speed mod besides a mwd in it. The zealot, as a counterpoint, will be doing, disregarding tracking, full damage with HPL and scorch aaaaaaaaallll the way till 40km and you still have about 8km falloff, while maintaining similar base speed with mwd. this using just 2 TE's. damage wise, with just guns, we're looking at a range between 222dps of the barrage vaga all the way to 280dps of the null neutron deimos, with the zealot sitting confortably on the 260dps range. The 5% damage boost on the blasters might pull it to the 300dps damage barrier when using neutrons+null, and the more relaxed fittings might make it actually able to slam neutrons on it without running out grid, but the very same core issues that plagued blaster ships are still there: not enough damage for a point blank weapon (which you're trying to transform into a poor man's version of the autocannon btw), coupled with hulls that don't have enough mobility to bring the minimal damage advantage to bear.
B) gallente are now a sniper race? ok then, better forget about blasters then!
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
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AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
42
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Posted - 2011.11.18 13:13:00 -
[81] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:
Evemail me the time and day you want to do it and we'll see how you fare.
Sir,
I must give props for the balls - so rare it is in the current climate to see someone actually come to forums and convincingly show guts where others show stains in underwear.
May you and your ilk never leave New Eden.
/bows
OT; In your opinion, has the blasterthron been 'fixed'?
AK GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGǪindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥
Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002. |
Wacktopia
Sicarius. Legion of The Damned.
34
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Posted - 2011.11.18 13:26:00 -
[82] - Quote
It's enough to see what kind of effect it will have without creating another FOTM.
Whilst part of me would love to see more range and even more damage, tracking I know this would not bring balance.
I'm glad CCP have learned from what occurred with the projectile "balance", where they wrote off hybrids almost completely as a weapons system.
I'm happy and looking forward to playing with the changes. If they're not enough then hopefully they will be looked into again. |
baltec1
196
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Posted - 2011.11.18 13:34:00 -
[83] - Quote
AlleyKat wrote:
OT; In your opinion, has the blasterthron been 'fixed'?
AK
My mega is gonna be pimpdaddy with these changes. I might even celebrate by getting a navy mega. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
212
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Posted - 2011.11.18 13:40:00 -
[84] - Quote
I'm still waiting you to post your super Deimost fit on SISI, most of all I'm still waiting to see more Diemost be flown over Vigilants on SISI. -if there's not price difference like in SISI, everyone with half brains working will always pick the vigilant over the diemost at his current state.
Now if you're trying to say, witch you are, once the expansion released suddenly Diemost will become top dog, my Cynabal still laughs at it.
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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
62
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Posted - 2011.11.18 13:42:00 -
[85] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:I'm still waiting you to post your super Deimost fit on SISI, most of all I'm still waiting to see more Diemost be flown over Vigilants on SISI. -if there's not price difference like in SISI, everyone with half brains working will always pick the vigilant over the diemost at his current state. Now if you're trying to say, witch you are, once the expansion released suddenly Diemost will become top dog, my Cynabal still laughs at it.
and ?
Its like my 100 man drake fleet laugh at your cynabal.. totally irrelevant
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baltec1
196
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Posted - 2011.11.18 13:53:00 -
[86] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote: my Cynabal still laughs at it.
Cynabals laugh at just about every cruiser hull, whats you're point? |
Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
124
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Posted - 2011.11.18 14:18:00 -
[87] - Quote
FlameGlow wrote:Eagle is still short on PG, it should be boosted if there are any chances of it seeing any use - fit rails and T2 MWD on it and it's short by 10 grid, do same on Deimos - 130 grid free, arty Munnin - 50 grid free, heavy beam Zealot - 70 grid free I think it needs about 40-60 base grid more at least, reduce CPU in exchange by 20-30, there is too much
I agree, I wonder if CCP is trying to gimp 250s on the Eagle?
I keep hearing how super and great rails are, yes you can pull range with Antimatter but damage still isn't much. Lock time is sluggish even against a BS. I'm not sure if it's because I have become accustomed to engaging larger targets in small ships lately or what but I am tempted to use a range script for a scan res.
I switched to a Brokh (t1 modal and thorium) and it went okay.
I need to eventually grab large blaster spec. |
Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
124
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Posted - 2011.11.18 14:19:00 -
[88] - Quote
Wacktopia wrote:It's enough to see what kind of effect it will have without creating another FOTM.
The Cynabal is the current FOTM, and it's growing. |
Ryans Revenge
V0LTA VOLTA Corp
7
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Posted - 2011.11.18 14:45:00 -
[89] - Quote
The thread title makes no sense. It isn't "final" it's the current balance. They said they will then tweak it some more if need be but want to see if this is enough of a change first. |
LarpingBard
Pendragon Exploration STR8NGE BREW
1
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Posted - 2011.11.18 15:09:00 -
[90] - Quote
Of course this is not enough. I know CCP thinks of blasters and rails from a paper-rock-scissors mentality based on DPS....but I think it should think of paper rock scissors based on two things....
Weapons that use no ammo should be weaker....weapons that use no cap should be weaker.... Weapons that use BOTH ammo and cap should be the strongest...simple as that. :)
How would I change it without changing the DPS? Alpha.
Specifically Caldari Railgunships....I would change the SHIPS to be very high alpha. How? Think of the Railgun as a highpowered sniper rifle. Double the volley....double the rate of fire.... so instead of a 500dmg volley every 7 seconds, a 1000dmg volley ever 14. The nature of a sniper in real military applications is 1 shot 1 kill. So to balance this new higher alpha, perhaps only 1/2 the charges before reloading as well. Blasters should have the opposite....1/2 the volley but halfing the rate of fire. Since gallente ships have actual DAMAGE bonuses, I would balance them seperately. |
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