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Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
25
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Posted - 2011.11.18 15:57:00 -
[91] - Quote
So far? Not really, it doesn't specifically address lots of problems on caldari hulls(pg, cpu, odd slot allocation, lack of turrets on the ferrox, speed, low effect of the optimal bonus with blasters etc.) and it doesn't address the reason why bigger blaster hulls are so bad(poor close range performance by her issues to project DPS there) in a meaning full way. As long as CCP don't address web/scram range mechanics or give blaster ships the ability to ignore/overcome them you will not see them coming back. |
Opertone
Signal 7
11
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Posted - 2011.11.18 17:21:00 -
[92] - Quote
pls, disallow warp off for 60 seconds after initiation of player agression or attacking back a player.
This solves the problem for PvP. No way back, snipers get a chance to snipe from afar, MWD pilots get a chance to catch them or be caught.
Introduce warp engine instability after PvP initiation. More massive battles - less tears (omg, he warped)
In this case you either accept the fight or avoid it, not hit and run. Stupid, not tactical, if you think you are smart, you are just rolling in a lol boat. |
Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
125
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Posted - 2011.11.18 17:25:00 -
[93] - Quote
Opertone wrote:pls, disallow warp off for 60 seconds after initiation of player agression or attacking back a player.
This solves the problem for PvP. No way back, snipers get a chance to snipe from afar, MWD pilots get a chance to catch them or be caught.
Introduce warp engine instability after PvP initiation. More massive battles - less tears (omg, he warped)
In this case you either accept the fight or avoid it, not hit and run. Stupid, not tactical, if you think you are smart, you are just rolling in a lol boat.
A "tactical withdraw" (i.e. GTFO as it's labelled in my overview) is a frustrating, yes, but viable means of combat or combat resolution. |
Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
125
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Posted - 2011.11.18 17:27:00 -
[94] - Quote
LarpingBard wrote:Of course this is not enough. I know CCP thinks of blasters and rails from a paper-rock-scissors mentality based on DPS....but I think it should think of paper rock scissors based on two things....
Weapons that use no ammo should be weaker....weapons that use no cap should be weaker.... Weapons that use BOTH ammo and cap should be the strongest...simple as that. :)
How would I change it without changing the DPS? Alpha.
Specifically Caldari Railgunships....I would change the SHIPS to be very high alpha. How? Think of the Railgun as a highpowered sniper rifle. Double the volley....double the rate of fire.... so instead of a 500dmg volley every 7 seconds, a 1000dmg volley ever 14. The nature of a sniper in real military applications is 1 shot 1 kill. So to balance this new higher alpha, perhaps only 1/2 the charges before reloading as well. Blasters should have the opposite....1/2 the volley but halfing the rate of fire. Since gallente ships have actual DAMAGE bonuses, I would balance them seperately.
Rails= low RoF Alpha Blasters = high RoF sustained hurt I like. |
Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
76
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Posted - 2011.11.18 17:32:00 -
[95] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:LarpingBard wrote:Of course this is not enough. I know CCP thinks of blasters and rails from a paper-rock-scissors mentality based on DPS....but I think it should think of paper rock scissors based on two things....
Weapons that use no ammo should be weaker....weapons that use no cap should be weaker.... Weapons that use BOTH ammo and cap should be the strongest...simple as that. :)
How would I change it without changing the DPS? Alpha.
Specifically Caldari Railgunships....I would change the SHIPS to be very high alpha. How? Think of the Railgun as a highpowered sniper rifle. Double the volley....double the rate of fire.... so instead of a 500dmg volley every 7 seconds, a 1000dmg volley ever 14. The nature of a sniper in real military applications is 1 shot 1 kill. So to balance this new higher alpha, perhaps only 1/2 the charges before reloading as well. Blasters should have the opposite....1/2 the volley but halfing the rate of fire. Since gallente ships have actual DAMAGE bonuses, I would balance them seperately. Rails= low RoF Alpha Blasters = high RoF sustained hurt I like. aha so you want to make rails into artillery with less fitting req and more tracking?
yeah, oh wait no. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
236
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Posted - 2011.11.18 20:22:00 -
[96] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: 4) its short range guns can actually now compete dps wise with AC's, since most often times AC's are trying to shoot from deep fall off. Couple that with the fact that smart fitters will realize that most gallent ships have a built in damage bonus and a smart fitter will actually go towards buffing range (TE's) instead of DPS to better apply their already higher DPS.
Basically if you can alter the way you think about fitting from what is considered 'traditional' fitting, you'll find the Blaster ships competing nicely with their counterparts.
Caldari will fit Mag Stabs, Gallente will fit Tracking Enhancers (and still come out doing sweet DPS), Rails, well rails just pretty much own right now, the ability to use AntiMatter out to extreme ranges means that no, you don't use all the range potential of the rail, but the range you do use, will put out SIGNIFICANTLY higher DPS numbers than the beam or artillery counterparts, with the side effect of Rails out tracking Arty by a mile.
so from your view that means that: A) basically blaster ships with damage mods are bad fits now? since I'll need to cram TE's on them and in the case of the deimos that means 2-3 lowslots of the 6 it has, so that it becomes a bad version of the vagabond? I mean it still has mobility issues, so that means that the lowslots are either for damage mods (and still be slower and have less damage projection than the vagabond) or nano (which will need 2 slots for to even compete with a vaga without any kind of nano even after changes), or going with tank and simply failing to reach the vaga every time. ok it is a bit of a pigeonholing, a vaga vs deimos competition, but with a 2TE deimos + null and HAC 4, the falloff + optimal for a deimos is on the 24km range, and on the vaga is at about 40km range, and that's comparing a deimos with neutrons and a vagabond with 220's. atm without any speed changes, the vaga is a whole 800m/sec faster than the deimos, and that's not even using any speed mod besides a mwd in it. The zealot, as a counterpoint, will be doing, disregarding tracking, full damage with HPL and scorch aaaaaaaaallll the way till 40km and you still have about 8km falloff, while maintaining similar base speed with mwd. this using just 2 TE's. damage wise, with just guns, we're looking at a range between 222dps of the barrage vaga all the way to 280dps of the null neutron deimos, with the zealot sitting confortably on the 260dps range. The 5% damage boost on the blasters might pull it to the 300dps damage barrier when using neutrons+null, and the more relaxed fittings might make it actually able to slam neutrons on it without running out grid, but the very same core issues that plagued blaster ships are still there: not enough damage for a point blank weapon (which you're trying to transform into a poor man's version of the autocannon btw), coupled with hulls that don't have enough mobility to bring the minimal damage advantage to bear. B)
I'm not going to go through all this point by point because i just woke up, but you keep talking about the agility issues.
Have you even logged in to see how agile they are, because it doesn't sound like you have.
Also if you're so sure of yourself why haven't you taken up my offer to run tests on the test server, I mean the ships are 100 isk each, theres no actual barier to stop you, the killmails aren't really killmails, and all you lose is 100 isk.
I'm literally challenging all the naysayers to back it up on the test server any time they want, but none of you are even considering the option?
You can spread sheet all the numbers you want, but in the end if you don't back it up with actual game play then whats the point?
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FeralShadow
Black Storm Cartel
18
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Posted - 2011.11.18 20:48:00 -
[97] - Quote
+1, from my testing hybrid turrets are MUCH better and can stand toe-to-toe with other ships of the same class. For example a blaster talos vs. a pulse laser Oracle, my talos won (fully dps setup) but JUST barely. The oracle died, and my talos was in half structure. Prior to the changes I did the same test and the Oracle won with hardly any shield damage. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
150
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Posted - 2011.11.19 02:25:00 -
[98] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:I'm not going to go through all this point by point because i just woke up, but you keep talking about the agility issues.
Have you even logged in to see how agile they are, because it doesn't sound like you have.
Also if you're so sure of yourself why haven't you taken up my offer to run tests on the test server, I mean the ships are 100 isk each, theres no actual barier to stop you, the killmails aren't really killmails, and all you lose is 100 isk.
I'm literally challenging all the naysayers to back it up on the test server any time they want, but none of you are even considering the option?
You can spread sheet all the numbers you want, but in the end if you don't back it up with actual game play then whats the point?
I said mobility, not just agility. mobility, afaik, comprehends both speed and agility.
if a vagabond is faster than a deimos, moves better than a deimos, and hits farther than a deimos for a negligable damage diference, isn't the vagabond better? [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2011.11.19 09:32:00 -
[99] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I struggle to think ...
confirming that....
"You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2011.11.19 10:05:00 -
[100] - Quote
Hybrids aren-¦t fixed. Can-¦t be done this way, because they aren-¦t designed for the roles they try to fit in.
Close combat: cap-free because of nos/neut, multiple damage types to make the hits count, the fastest and most agile ships to close in.
Sniping: low rof, high alpha, multiple damage types to make every hit count, fast and agile ships...
Minmatar and their weapons are designed for this.
So hybrids and gallente need another role they are suited for. they could do medium range without being overpowered. reliable but not outstanding dps and tracking with a flexible engagement range, their ships neither the fastest nor the slowest, they would make good generalists, with the many shortcomings of hybrids they wouldn-¦t be op.
just exchange ranges from AC/blaster and Arties/rails (with dps and tracking adjusted to the range changes) and:
Gallente and hybrids would be fixed without them being over- or underpowered Minmatar and projectiles wouldn-¦t be op any more, because being outstanding is fine if it-¦s not everywhere but in a few areas Caldari turretships would be fixed because they would be useful... not outstanding, but useful.
this is how you fix balancing issues like this, not some bandaid changes... "You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
244
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Posted - 2011.11.19 12:41:00 -
[101] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:
I said mobility, not just agility. mobility, afaik, comprehends both speed and agility.
if a vagabond is faster than a deimos, moves better than a deimos, and hits farther than a deimos for a negligable damage diference, isn't the vagabond better?
A vaga at 20km is already doing half damage as he's at his first full falloff marker. So if you had barrage loaded your doing a whopping 150-200 dps at 20km. That doesn't count tracking bringing the damage down.
A null loaded Deimos can easily pull that at that exact same range, and he's firing into the Vaga's resist hole.
If the Vaga really wants to hurt the deimos with any real form of damage he needs to close inside 20km, where the Deimos's damage will be significantly worse for him to bear.
If the vaga wants to stay out of the Deimos's damage envelope he'll be skating a very thin line trying to stay inside point range. If he cuts his MWD to avoid tracking issues or save cap he's in danger of getting buffalo charged by the deimos (a plated Deimos can jump up around 2k with heat). If he choses to apply damage at 30km with barrage thats fine too, because even if its wet noodle paper bag DPS its outside of warp disruptor range and the Deimos just warps off.
I've flat out offered to PROVE to you on the TEST server over and over again about the changes, but you chose to ignore it, so all you're doing at this point is talking a lot.
Either show up or wait for the 29th, but you're theories on space ships are flawed and you're evidently scared to have it proved to you. |
Soddington Smythe
A Big Enough Lever Numquam Ambulare Solus
0
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Posted - 2011.11.19 12:49:00 -
[102] - Quote
Essentially CCP have kindly consented to stop standing on my windpipe for a while ,as well as looking into the possibility of ceasing to urinate in my coffee.
At the risk of sounding like a domestic violence victim, I'm a little bit thankful about the Hybrid buff.
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
150
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Posted - 2011.11.19 12:57:00 -
[103] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Either show up or wait for the 29th, but you're theories on space ships are flawed and you're evidently scared to have it proved to you.
I prefer to wait for the 29th and be completely wrong than going to the test server and engage in an artificial mock battle. I do hope you're right, but from personal experience with these same hulls, the boosts do feel like were simply not enough. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
2179
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Posted - 2011.11.19 13:01:00 -
[104] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:TEST server...................scared...............
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
29
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Posted - 2011.11.19 13:40:00 -
[105] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:I prefer to wait for the 29th and be completely wrong than going to the test server and engage in an artificial mock battle. Why?
Is it just straight up not giving enough of a **** or what? |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
150
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Posted - 2011.11.19 14:32:00 -
[106] - Quote
Autonomous Monster wrote:Grimpak wrote:I prefer to wait for the 29th and be completely wrong than going to the test server and engage in an artificial mock battle. Why? Is it just straight up not giving enough of a **** or what? mostly that.
been asking for a coherent boost to hybrids for a fuckton of time, and all they came up was with an half-assed response.
oh well, at least the naga seems to be a nice hybrid ship. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
LarpingBard
Pendragon Exploration STR8NGE BREW
2
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Posted - 2011.12.02 01:17:00 -
[107] - Quote
Railguns need to have silly high alpha because of the usage of expensive ammo and capacitor. Think about it...think about a sniper rifle. One shot, high alpha, but maybe just a double tap and a small magazine. I like x2 volley but double time to shoot. Just saying.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
475
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Posted - 2011.12.02 01:25:00 -
[108] - Quote
I think the blasters are okay now. I mean when I warp on top of my target it reall rips into them now.
As others said though there needs to be something for blaster ships to get closer to thier targets.
Maybe a skip drive or something?
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
475
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Posted - 2011.12.02 01:25:00 -
[109] - Quote
Artilery > Sniper.
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Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2011.12.02 01:34:00 -
[110] - Quote
I feel like the changes have bridged the gap, yes more can be done, but being a hybrid user I'm always going to be biased about that. |
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Pestilent Industries
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
8
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Posted - 2011.12.02 01:55:00 -
[111] - Quote
I think it is okay for now, if it isnt enough they can buff them again. CCP has a history of over buffing or over nerfing so this is a good start. I am amazed actually |
Renge Ukyo
Point of No Return Waterboard
2
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Posted - 2011.12.10 02:50:00 -
[112] - Quote
(Continued)
In addition to that, because it's got such ******** power, the cap use of a hybrid turret would be phenomenal, and well above that of the laser systems.
And lastly we come to the blasters. Not only is the science fiction and science fact information sketchy at best as to -how- this would theoretically operate, let me just say that a rapid discharge of power coming from a focused emitter would severely deplete its power source and the emp emitted from that kind of system would basically crash any sort of electrical system on the craft it was attached too. Additionally, because it's such a short weapon, it should theoretically be able to shoot the fly off an apple from 500 meters, and again because it's got this whole near-light-speed-plasma-based-projectile thing going on, it really should be a mean son of a ***** from about 0-10kilomters.
Unless of courser you -really- think that you're gonna get a 200m projectile to move fast enough in space to do any real damage, let alone an 800mm one... CCP you astound me with your stupidity.
So lets stop wasting our time on hybrids, or alternatively just give them comparably stats of other turret systems since we're ignoring anything that resembles reality anyway, and give the Gallente a fighting chance, instead of this years version of the ford pinto. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
570
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Posted - 2011.12.10 06:11:00 -
[113] - Quote
Arrrg.
Blasters predetonate the cores and contain the explosion in a magnetic field before railgunning the entire slag out the vent. This forms a shotgun pattern as the magnetic fields fail shortly after range leaving the magnetizied peices of slag to contain the ingited mediums.
The means of detonation can be easily contained in the shell itself, just the shell isnt let go in blaster's case where a railgun only detonates as it hits which is why its so much lower damage becuase the shape charge only does so much like a firecracker on a flat hand. Where the blaster is litterally raining molten plasma embuned bolts at the enemy and with the fields disspiating into the target forcing the exciement to fuse with the surface of the target. Hence Hybrid there is some energy in the shell and it takes power to make full use of it.
Railgunning by either methoods in thoery are lower energy cost compared the need of containing a nuclear explosion catalysted into a barreled array down range within a crystal matrix to electron strip the material and then obtain focal onto target and have nothing get destroyed in the process.
Remember Sir Issac Newton is the third deadliest son-of-a-freedo after Murphy and Darwin in the holy space trinity.
Overall I think blasters are okay for PVE now as they down ships pertty fast and almost competiviely against others provided you start timing from first possible shooting.
Which means that more help is required for the ships than there when it comes to covering distnaces.
Though I wouldnt mind seeing railguns being made into the longest ranged sniper wepaon in the game. While you let lasers retain the best short ranged engagement envelope.
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Ka P'lah
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1
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Posted - 2011.12.10 07:56:00 -
[114] - Quote
Yep, +1...for now... |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
510
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Posted - 2011.12.10 09:25:00 -
[115] - Quote
A bit of a necro on this thread, but I think it's a good start as well.
They have said that they might re-envision hybrids at some point. I've been kind of thinking about that.
If they do decide to do more fundamental changes to them one idea that would not call for a lot of additional elements to be designed would be to switch up their traditional way of doing damage. I think it would be interesting if they became some what the opposite of projectile weaponry.
Give blasters a much slower rate of fire, but tremendous alpha. Point blank range artillery if you will (more like a mortar).
Give Rails a much higher rate of fire, with moderate but accurate (and near continuous) damage at range. Strong DPS potential but minimal alpha. Think of it as a long range auto cannon that instead rapidly cycles magnetic pulses up the rails to fire their charges at the enemy.
To me this fits the prime fiction of the weapons a bit more accurately, and opens up some new options in tactics and fleet composition. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Baden Luskan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2011.12.10 10:58:00 -
[116] - Quote
Numerically, a hybrid platform does comparable dps now. But the way it is applied makes railguns very useless for PvP. DPS is a simple number derived form damage per a bullet divided by rate of fire. So, you can high the same DPS from railguns (small damage, but high rate of fire) that you can have from artilery (BIG damage but a very slow rate of fire). Seeing as alpha is king in PvP thanks to logistics, the railgun turret is very inefficient in acomplishing anything in fleet battles. Its does so little damage per volley fo fire, but its rate of fire is not fast enough to make up for it when repping is involved.
A logistics ship will respond to a ship needing repping within 5 seconds. This means that any useful DPS needs to be applied before then. Even if you stack rate of fire modules on a railgun platform, the weapon still does not fire fast enough to compensate for the lack of volley damage it does. In other words, all the damage they do will be repped before the ship dies. This makes using them in PvP pointless, especially when artilery does the job SO MUCH BETTER.
This would not be a big issue, but Caldari are also gimped in PvP with their other weapon system. I love missiles. They are easy to use, versitle, and pack a good punch and have great range. Unfortunatly, their travel time to target makes them have simular issues with alpha damage. The delay between launchig them and the missile landing on target makes them less deseraible than projectiles or lasers.
This means the most deseriable weapon platforms for PvP, from best to worst, are projectiles, lasers, missiles, and finally hybrids. So the Caldari have the 2 least popular platforms for PvP. Well, atleast Caldari are great for PvE or they would be as rare as Gallante.
In my opinion, tweak the rate of fire and damage so they fire even faster while still keeping the same DPS. This would allow them to be more useful in PvP while not affecting their usefullness in PvE.
Also, I think there needs to be more variation in ammo. Part of the reason Hybrids do not fare as well in PvP is because they do only kinetic and thermal damage. Most ships come with a high kinetic resist, so alot of their damage is mitigated. If a player had more combonations to choose from for ammo, he could curtail weapon systems to fit his needs. Allowing each race to have access to 3 damage types as opposed to just 2, would go a long way in making rarely used turret systems more popular again without causing balance issues. |
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