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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
85
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Posted - 2014.05.27 09:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm thinking of the little used EWAR drones [Not ECM, though potentially a contender too] here. When I say EWAR drones forget about ECM, that's a different beast
Given the advent of the gecko, I've decided this is now a thing and these other drones should be gecko'dGäó
As we know, geckos are just scaled up heavy drones - bigger, more grunt, higher bandwith allowing limited numbers to be deployed.
So...to EWAR drones, these are hampered for two reasons - DPS drones are universally better and the stacking penalties kill their usefulness.
So, we apply the Gecko method to them: By this I mean what about increasing their effects (to the point they might be worth using over DPS drones in certain circumstance/hulls), size and bandwidth to mitigate the stacking issues that make them worthless. So instead of 5 light painter drones, you would launch one "light drone" with a size/bandwidth of 25 and commensurate HP increase and effect increase to boot.
ECM drones....I'm undecided. It might work here and would probably be a nerf since less jammers would be cycling. I'd be inclined to leave them out for now and just stick with the web/painter/vamp/TD/damp drones.
I'm sure there's a good reason we wont do this, but I cant think of it right now - so....tell me why it sucks (or if it's a cool idea :) ) |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2255
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Posted - 2014.05.27 10:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
1. You do realize that the gecko drones already have their "post-Kronos" stats, right? 2. You also realize that all other drones do not have this treatment completed, right? One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
85
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Posted - 2014.05.27 10:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
You've entirely missed the point
It is about upsizing the drones to alleviate the crazy stacking penalty issues.
The whole "gecko-them" thing was about the conecept of the gecko being 2x heavy drones in all BUT physical number in space. |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2255
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Posted - 2014.05.27 10:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
No, I see where you're going with it ... it's just early in the morning...
was thinking ecm drones (which are not stack penalized), as opposed to general ewar drones (which apparently are - although quick checks through wiki don't really say either way on these guys). One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
85
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Posted - 2014.05.27 10:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
No worries
Just hoped my post was clear enough the first time, mostly irked at myself. They're definitely hit (well, vamps wont be). Those 5x5% ewar drones as an example come out to <15% iirc.
I think it would be a relatively easy and interesting way to breath some life back into these drone types. |
Jezza McWaffle
Blackstar Privateers Disavowed.
120
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Posted - 2014.05.27 11:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Any upgrade to the existing ewar drones would be welcome :D Including the neut variants, while I wouldnt mind keeping with using 5 light ones I would buff their EHP massively and also increase their strength by about 25% C6 Wormhole blog http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/ |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
140
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Posted - 2014.05.27 11:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Decent idea, would make them a lot easier to balance effectively too. Travelling at the speed of love. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
513
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Posted - 2014.05.27 11:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Good idea, any rework of ewar drones would be welcome. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1587
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Posted - 2014.05.27 12:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
+1 if not to ecm drones.
duelled an honey bee orca in my nightmare on sisi. got jammed by medium ecm drones 5 times. 5!! EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
87
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Posted - 2014.05.28 07:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Are we allowed to bump on this board? I can't be the only one who wants to use the EWAR drones more. Well....ok....at all would be good |
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2082
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Posted - 2014.05.28 07:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Wow. This is actually a good idea. That never ******* happens. Congratulations. |
Dave Stark
6025
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Posted - 2014.05.28 08:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
no, because many ships have a drone bay below 25m3, which basically means they'd no longer be able to use ewar drones. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2082
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Posted - 2014.05.28 08:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:no, because many ships have a drone bay below 25m3, which basically means they'd no longer be able to use ewar drones.
Right, because as of now everyone uses light web drones over warriors/hobs/ecms, right? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
88
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Posted - 2014.05.28 08:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
It's a valid concern though, and arguably a very good reason to keep ECM drones out of this. Or a reason to add them, depends on how much you hate them I suppose |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
219
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Posted - 2014.05.28 09:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yes I could see this being a possibility. Good job using the new concepts and reapplying them. |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
219
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Posted - 2014.05.28 09:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
For ECM however the real issue is that their cycle time for attempting to jam is faster than the jam cycle itself. So if you're jammed for 20 seconds they still keep attempting to jam you ever 5 seconds or so. Also there is no stacking penalty on ecm drones...i.e. its the same chance per jam regardless of the number of drones resulting in disproportionate utility.
Most ewar drones have diminishing returns via said stacking penalty...ecm only grows in effectiveness with more being added. Those are the two main issues. |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2258
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 11:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dug it up, and I don't see any indication that there's a stacking penalty in the same way as modules. However, drones appear to just alter the result exponentially, rather than multiplying their effect.
multiple effect--> 0.05 * 5 = 0.25 = 25% reduction in sensor strength/speed/etc exponential effect --> 0.95 ^ 5 = 0.77 = 77% of "base" (i.e. 23% reduction) sensor strength/speed/etc.
This would coincide with the other "negative" bonuses that we can apply to our ships (e.g. 5% reduction in cycle time), assuming they're not also subject to stacking penalties. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
89
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 11:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
This is interesting, I'll need to try and test it further when I get a chance.
Using EFT projected effects a cerberus going 1614 ms has the following results (allowing for rounding, about what I'd expect)
[1 light web drone] 1533 94.9814126394052% of max [5 light web drone] 1397 86.55514250309789% of max
Unless EFT is wrong?
Edit:
5 Light painter drones push it from 181 sig to 202 (~12% increase) |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2260
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 12:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
or my working of the maths is wrong -- I am not accounting for stacking penalties, because the drones themselves do not say they are affected by it. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
unnownrelic
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
2
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Posted - 2014.05.28 13:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
The drones don't say they're affected by it strictly but the same rules as multiple pilots applying the same kind of ewar still applies as far as I know. |
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2085
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 15:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Just to be clear since there seems to be some confusion: effects from web drones and the like are indeed subject to stacking penalties and this is indeed a big part of what makes them worthless right now. |
Dave Stark
6027
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 17:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Dave Stark wrote:no, because many ships have a drone bay below 25m3, which basically means they'd no longer be able to use ewar drones. Right, because as of now everyone uses light web drones over warriors/hobs/ecms, right?
doesn't matter. when my moa only has 15m3 of drone bay, if ewar drones were a minimum of 25m3 i wouldn't be using them anyway.
when ships are unable to use the thing you've just 'improved' it defeats the point of improving it. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 17:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
Well, if you can think of a better way to get them usable and get around the stacking which cripples them - I'm all ears.
Quite seriously.
Also, my vagabond can use an ogre, I can't use a gecko. I fail to see the main issue to be honest but I suppose if it kept you happy to be able to use the 3 webbers or painters - a new drone could be introduced which is upscaled. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2085
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 17:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Dave Stark wrote:no, because many ships have a drone bay below 25m3, which basically means they'd no longer be able to use ewar drones. Right, because as of now everyone uses light web drones over warriors/hobs/ecms, right? doesn't matter. when my moa only has 15m3 of drone bay, if ewar drones were a minimum of 25m3 i wouldn't be using them anyway. when ships are unable to use the thing you've just 'improved' it defeats the point of improving it.
I understand the objection, but why not do something odd like make a "light" web drone something like 15m^3, a medium 30m^3, and a heavy 50m^3?
The numbers can be jiggled around a bit to be made to work. At least having fewer, stronger effects out of the same bandwidth would get around the crippling stacking penalties as they currently stand. |
Dave Stark
6029
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 07:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Dave Stark wrote:no, because many ships have a drone bay below 25m3, which basically means they'd no longer be able to use ewar drones. Right, because as of now everyone uses light web drones over warriors/hobs/ecms, right? doesn't matter. when my moa only has 15m3 of drone bay, if ewar drones were a minimum of 25m3 i wouldn't be using them anyway. when ships are unable to use the thing you've just 'improved' it defeats the point of improving it. I understand the objection, but why not do something odd like make a "light" web drone something like 15m^3, a medium 30m^3, and a heavy 50m^3? The numbers can be jiggled around a bit to be made to work. At least having fewer, stronger effects out of the same bandwidth would get around the crippling stacking penalties as they currently stand.
because what about ships with 10m3 drone bay?
you see why this idea simply doesn't work; you either exclude ships from using the drones all together, or you introduce smaller more watered down variants and... oh we're right back in the situation we started with.
i'm not saying it's a bad idea; i like it. however, it simply won't work. |
Battle BV Master
Executor BV Sovereign Infinity
43
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Posted - 2014.05.29 08:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:because what about ships with 10m3 drone bay?
you see why this idea simply doesn't work; you either exclude ships from using the drones all together, or you introduce smaller more watered down variants and... oh we're right back in the situation we started with.
i'm not saying it's a bad idea; i like it. however, it simply won't work.
Well you can't put a DC on a freigther or Cruise Launchers on your Orca or a 100MN MWD on your Punisher.
This game is based on, and is completely fine with the idea that not every ship can do everything.
So instead of screaming we all have to be able to do it, accept that thats not EVE and thats how almost nothing works in this game.
Instead turn it into an argument to fly a ship with more bandwidth, besides there aren't many ships that have the silly 10 or 15m3 anyways (it should be none or 25m3 if you ask me but oh well) |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 08:56:00 -
[27] - Quote
Why would anyone be using three Damp drones in the first place? Travelling at the speed of love. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1473
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 09:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
There is also a limit to the number of EWAR (not ECM!) modules which can be applied to the same target which, IIRC, is six. This is why you don't see anything more than triple-web triple-TP lokis in C5 escalations.
This is also, coincidentally, why EWAR drones blow goat peen. If you assign multiple TP drones to a target it caps out at 6 drones, which works out to be only slightly more of a sig radius boost to the target than a single TP. This then means you may as well have added a midslot TP and kept your DPS drones and ganked the dude faster.
Truthfully, the pproblem with EWAR drones could indeed be slightly reduced by this idea, which has loads of merit, and could also be solved by giving these drones.... - more optimal! - more speed, esp for webbers! - more EHP! - 25% more oomph - T2 variants J's before K's. ::brofist:: http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 09:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Dave Stark wrote:no, because many ships have a drone bay below 25m3, which basically means they'd no longer be able to use ewar drones. Right, because as of now everyone uses light web drones over warriors/hobs/ecms, right? doesn't matter. when my moa only has 15m3 of drone bay, if ewar drones were a minimum of 25m3 i wouldn't be using them anyway. when ships are unable to use the thing you've just 'improved' it defeats the point of improving it. I understand the objection, but why not do something odd like make a "light" web drone something like 15m^3, a medium 30m^3, and a heavy 50m^3? The numbers can be jiggled around a bit to be made to work. At least having fewer, stronger effects out of the same bandwidth would get around the crippling stacking penalties as they currently stand. because what about ships with 10m3 drone bay? you see why this idea simply doesn't work; you either exclude ships from using the drones all together, or you introduce smaller more watered down variants and... oh we're right back in the situation we started with. i'm not saying it's a bad idea; i like it. however, it simply won't work.
Well there is precendent of removing abilities from ships - for example the Gila losing sentries.
Keep in mind it wont work for ships but if no-one is using them now - is anything of value lost?
Perhaps CCP would be good enough to look at and fire some stats our way? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
460
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 18:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
This is a good idea. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
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