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Speed Destiny
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.05.28 12:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
There is something I don't understand...
In my Procurer with:
1x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 2x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get the following yield 3228 m3.
However if I monkey with Mackinaw in EveHQ, and add to it:
2x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 3x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get 3518 m3
This is very odd since it has two miners, why the difference is so low? |
Tam Arai
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.05.28 12:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
re: procurer
With that in mind, the designers could only make space to fit one mining or ice harvesting module. To mitigate the effect this would have on the ship's mining output, they came up with a unique loading system that allows this one module to work at triple efficiency. |
Speed Destiny
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.05.28 12:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yes, ok... I agree, it says so...
But from this point of view Mackinaw is almost no upgrade from Procurer... OK, it has a larger ore hold, I agree, but to fill it and make the same production with two miners, you will need to find big asteroids or constantly move it to new ones, which does not make it for a larger ore hold.
Or am I missing something?
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Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 13:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP purposely made the yield about the same. Advantage of Procurer is much more tank. Advantage of Retriever is much bigger ore hold. Hulk has the most yield, but tiny ore hold.
Most miners have gone with Retriever(and especially Mackinaw) so CCP is re-balancing the mining ships with the next release. |
Speed Destiny
Cluelix
0
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Posted - 2014.05.28 13:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
I was expecting that a T2 ship is more efficient than a T1...
Rebalancing in what way?
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trevormax
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
33
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Posted - 2014.05.28 14:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Speed Destiny wrote:There is something I don't understand...
In my Procurer with:
1x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 2x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get the following yield 3228 m3.
However if I monkey with Mackinaw in EveHQ, and add to it:
2x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 3x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get 3518 m3
This is very odd since it has two miners, why the difference is so low?
You must be doing something wrong. I can get 4016m3 with my mack. this is with exhumers 5, 3 MLU's, no links or implants. Maybe you need to take skills into account.
The Mack and Skiff gets a 1% / level yield bonus with each exhumer skill level which the proc does not get. The mack has an extra low for the 3rd MLU that a skiff and proc does not have. I am not fully up to date with the coming changes but I believe the skiff (and possibly the proc) will get an extra low. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
336
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 14:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Speed Destiny wrote:I was expecting that a T2 ship is more efficient than a T1...
Rebalancing in what way?
Seriously go read the ship descriptions and dev blogs before asking more stupid questions. |
Speed Destiny
Cluelix
0
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Posted - 2014.05.28 14:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thanks! I will go read dev blogs...
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Speed Destiny
Cluelix
0
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Posted - 2014.05.28 14:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Well, after 3 pages, I got nothing on the subject... I thought this is what community is for to help with specific questions... Google rendered posts from 2012-2013... I guess would have been easier to just answer instead of saying my questions are stupid.
I don't want to know what devs are planning, I just wanted to know what to buy for my next miner and since someone mentioned rebalancing, I thought someone can give me a hint of what's coming about ships I was asking...
Well, never mind. Nice community, and thanks for help.
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Speed Destiny
Cluelix
0
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Posted - 2014.05.28 14:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
trevormax wrote:Speed Destiny wrote:There is something I don't understand...
In my Procurer with:
1x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 2x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get the following yield 3228 m3.
However if I monkey with Mackinaw in EveHQ, and add to it:
2x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 3x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get 3518 m3
This is very odd since it has two miners, why the difference is so low? You must be doing something wrong. I can get 4016m3 with my mack. this is with exhumers 5, 3 MLU's, no links or implants. Maybe you need to take skills into account. The Mack and Skiff gets a 1% / level yield bonus with each exhumer skill level which the proc does not get. The mack has an extra low for the 3rd MLU that a skiff and proc does not have. I am not fully up to date with the coming changes but I believe the skiff (and possibly the proc) will get an extra low.
No, I was calculating with MY CURRENT skills. I will check in EveHQ what can I train to get more... But thanks...
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Speed Destiny
Cluelix
0
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Posted - 2014.05.28 15:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Yes, I get 4015 m3 but IMHO costs and skills to switch are too low to worth it for me. from 3228 m3 to 4015 m3 clearly not does not justify for me buying the Mackinaw. Seems that Retriever is much better and seems cheaper as I have all T2 modules for it.
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Bronson Hughes
14
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Posted - 2014.05.28 15:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
OP: This post from the F&I forum may help.
When CCP re-aligned the ORE line, they consciously chose to make yield more a property of which ship hull you chose, not T1 vs T2.
Procurer & Skiff are meant to be the tankiest ships, Retreiver & Mackinaw are meant to be the AFK-iest ships, and Covetor & Hulk are meant to be the yield-iest ships. CCP misjudged the draw of the AFK-iness of the Retreiver & Mack, so they're boosting the Procurer & Skiff and Covetor & Hulk to compensate.
Keep in mind, when you jump up from Mining Barges to Exhumers, you also gain slots and T2 shield resists. |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 15:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Speed Destiny wrote:Well, never mind. Nice community, and thanks for help. Don't be put off so easily. Sometimes people are gruff, but give good advice. Sometimes they're just gruff - tune those people out. Learning to read dev blogs is very useful, but more of an advanced skill.
Back to your question, the procurer is for tank, the retriever is for big ore hold, and covetor is for max yield. The T2 versions of each of these ships bulks up their intended strength.
Personally, I'm a fan of a tanked procurer when you are first starting as it makes you MUCH safer. Once you know what you're doing go for the retriever (or have both ships) if you feel like you're wasting too much time dropping off your ore at a station.
But the larger answer to your question is what do you want to do in Eve? Unless you really like mining you might be better off stopping at a T1 mining ship and start applying skill points towards other aspects of the game.
Finally, the upcoming changes are fairly subtle and won't change your decision for a solo miner.
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Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2263
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 15:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
except that the retriever is more squishy.
You should also read the Fanfest 2014 devblog ... and watch the rebalancing video(s) from CCP Rise and Fozzie... as they're getting re-balanced again in July.
Proc / Skiff -- more tank, less yield Ret / Mack -- less yield Cov / Hulk -- more yield / range. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
43
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 15:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
Speed Destiny wrote:I was expecting that a T2 ship is more efficient than a T1...
Rebalancing in what way?
Because the mackinaw has to fly back to station less often thus it gets a yield boost by having its lasers on longer.
Also, you are comparing a procurer to a mackinaw but you should compare procurer to a skiff or retriever to a mackinaw. Procurer and skiff have the same role while retriever and mackinaw have the same role, just T1 vs T2. |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 15:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Speed Destiny wrote:Yes, I get 4015 m3 but IMHO costs and skills to switch are too low to worth it for me. from 3228 m3 to 4015 m3 clearly not does not justify for me buying the Mackinaw. Seems that Retriever is much better and seems cheaper as I have all T2 modules for it.
Difference is that a retriever can be ganked by 1 catalyst. Mackinaw takes 2 cats. Why was I ganked? But many people think a T1 miner is a less attractive target and much cheaper to replace.
Don't forget to factor in the ore dump off time difference in calculating total yield between Procurer & Retriever. |
Bronson Hughes
14
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Posted - 2014.05.28 15:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:except that the retriever is more squishy.
You should also read the Fanfest 2014 devblog ... and watch the rebalancing video(s) from CCP Rise and Fozzie... as they're getting re-balanced again in July.
Proc / Skiff -- more tank, less yield Ret / Mack -- less yield Cov / Hulk -- more yield / range.
Yeah, I'm excited about this range bonus. They may need to dump their ore more often, but they won't spend as much time slowboating between rocks.
Shiloh Templeton wrote:Difference is that a retriever can be ganked by 1 catalyst. Mackinaw takes 2 cats. Why was I ganked? But many people think a T1 miner is a less attractive target and much cheaper to replace.
This is why the only Exhumer I will ever fly will be a Skiff. Something about an expensive ship with a paper-thin tank just turns me off. |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
43
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 15:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Speed Destiny wrote:Yes, ok... I agree, it says so...
But from this point of view Mackinaw is almost no upgrade from Procurer... OK, it has a larger ore hold, I agree, but to fill it and make the same production with two miners, you will need to find big asteroids or constantly move it to new ones, which does not make it for a larger ore hold.
Or am I missing something?
Yes, in null sec there are arkonor, bistot, crokite and spodumain asteroids 100,000 units large, and at 16m3 per unit, those asteroids are 1,600,000m3 in size. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
749
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 15:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Speed Destiny wrote:
Or am I missing something?
You're mining, so odds are you're missing a lot of things.
As others have noted, though, the barges are geared toward particular roles.
The procurer and skiff can sport battleship-grade tanks. They're designed to give a decent yield while being relatively "safe" from suicide ganking, etc.
The retriever and mackinaw have huge ore holds, making them good for AFK mining (provided you don't get suicide ganked).
The covetor and hulk get the best yield, but are very fragile. These are good for fleet mining ops, where their bonus yield will be further magnified by fleet boosts, and their small ore holds are a non-issue thanks to dedicated haulers, etc. "Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Quadpush
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.05.28 15:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
From my long mining experience, the only ships you need are (in order of progression): Venture->Procurer->Skiff
If there was no ganking, I'd consider a retriever/mackinaw. The reason why hulks and covetors are bad is their tiny ore hold.
If you consider yeilds, consider also costs of losing ship repeatedly due to suicide and time to travel to station. |
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Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
647
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 15:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Speed Destiny wrote:Yes, ok... I agree, it says so...
But from this point of view Mackinaw is almost no upgrade from Procurer... OK, it has a larger ore hold, I agree, but to fill it and make the same production with two miners, you will need to find big asteroids or constantly move it to new ones, which does not make it for a larger ore hold.
Or am I missing something?
In null the asteroid anoms provide seemingly never-ending asteroids like this. Of course they're not never-ending to a 10 man wrecking crew, but for a single pilot the site will probably despawn and respawn before you can mine it out.
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Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2263
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 15:59:00 -
[22] - Quote
Aerie Evingod wrote:Speed Destiny wrote:Yes, ok... I agree, it says so...
But from this point of view Mackinaw is almost no upgrade from Procurer... OK, it has a larger ore hold, I agree, but to fill it and make the same production with two miners, you will need to find big asteroids or constantly move it to new ones, which does not make it for a larger ore hold.
Or am I missing something?
Yes, in null sec there are arkonor, bistot, crokite and spodumain asteroids 100,000 units large, and at 16m3 per unit, those asteroids are 1,600,000m3 in size.
Hell, you can find similar things in hisec (well, not ABC ores) -- so many belts that are left untouched for a week or two because of a wardec ... One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
118
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 16:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
trevormax wrote:Speed Destiny wrote:There is something I don't understand...
In my Procurer with:
1x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 2x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get the following yield 3228 m3.
However if I monkey with Mackinaw in EveHQ, and add to it:
2x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 3x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get 3518 m3
This is very odd since it has two miners, why the difference is so low? You must be doing something wrong. I can get 4016m3 with my mack. this is with exhumers 5, 3 MLU's, no links or implants. Maybe you need to take skills into account. The Mack and Skiff gets a 1% / level yield bonus with each exhumer skill level which the proc does not get. The mack has an extra low for the 3rd MLU that a skiff and proc does not have. I am not fully up to date with the coming changes but I believe the skiff (and possibly the proc) will get an extra low.
The Mackinaw does have three low slots but that doesn't mean you should put an MLU in each one. A sensible miner will put a DC II module in the third slot. |
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
118
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 16:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
Speed Destiny wrote:I was expecting that a T2 ship is more efficient than a T1...
Rebalancing in what way?
You need to read the dev blog. The changes are designed to 'encourage' miners to use the full range of mining vessels. Since the first change the Retriever & Mackinaw have been the most popular due to their large ore holds. Before the first change the Hulk was most popular for ore mining & the Mackinaw was most popular for ice mining.
CCP Fozzie is making iterations to make the other mining vessels more attractive. In certain circumstances I think the changes may work but on the whole I expect miners will largely stay with what they are flying now. More EHP or higher resistances should have been given to the Hulk as it is still fairly defenceless if the primary defence ie intelligence of local threats and mining techniques fail.
I can't remember the specifics of the changes but they are largely a buff to mining. Changes includes increased sub-warp speed, increased range for both mining lasers and scanners, increased drone damage, & decreased cycle time which will give increased yield. Not all these changes will be applied to all the vessels. You'll have to read the dev blog or the F&I board. |
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
118
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 17:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
Speed Destiny wrote:Well, after 3 pages, I got nothing on the subject... I thought this is what community is for to help with specific questions... Google rendered posts from 2012-2013... I guess would have been easier to just answer instead of saying my questions are stupid.
I don't want to know what devs are planning, I just wanted to know what to buy for my next miner and since someone mentioned rebalancing, I thought someone can give me a hint of what's coming about ships I was asking...
Well, never mind. Nice community, and thanks for help.
To be honest you are going to be best off flying what you fly now. If you fly a Mackinaw now be aware that I think the yield is going to decrease on that ship a little.
Procurer: Fly this if you don't feel totally safe in-system. It's fairly gank-proof.
Retriever: If you feel safe fly this. You can try to fit some tank but it's not easy to protect without gimping the yield. I think a lot of miners fit it for yield and work on the assumption that the increased profit will cover the occasional ganked loss.
Mackinaw: Can be fitted with sufficient tank to keep it fairly safe. Don't be the '3x MLU' guy. ;) More yield than the Retriever.
Covetor & Hulk: Fleet mining ships only. You have to be at the keyboard chatting to corpies or doing other in-game stuff to fly these babies. Will be more yield on the Hulk after the iteration but your eyes have to be kept peeled. :)
Whatever you're flying fit 'active' tanks eg a DCII if nothing else unless your working on the 'profit covers losses' method. Keep a low profile whenever possible and don't make it extremely obvious you are a mining or industry corp. Don't **** off other miners and if possible avoid using multiple accounts that obviously run by one person or use ISBoxer. You'll be fine then. :) |
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 18:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
Speed Destiny wrote:There is something I don't understand...
In my Procurer with:
1x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 2x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get the following yield 3228 m3.
However if I monkey with Mackinaw in EveHQ, and add to it:
2x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 3x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get 3518 m3
This is very odd since it has two miners, why the difference is so low?
Ok what am I missing here? I get ( in a fleet) 2253m3 per cycle with maxed skills apart form only having Exhumers 4. All T2 gear as well. I even have mining drones at level 5 as well! My alt with Exhumers 5 gets 2275m3.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
751
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 18:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Speed Destiny wrote:There is something I don't understand...
In my Procurer with:
1x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 2x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get the following yield 3228 m3.
However if I monkey with Mackinaw in EveHQ, and add to it:
2x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 3x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get 3518 m3
This is very odd since it has two miners, why the difference is so low? Ok what am I missing here? I get ( in a fleet) 2253m3 per cycle with maxed skills apart form only having Exhumers 4. All T2 gear as well. I even have mining drones at level 5 as well! My alt with Exhumers 5 gets 2275m3.
With what ship and fit? That would really only make sense with, e.g., T2 strips with no crystals. A procurer with no mods, ganglinks, or other boosts will pull over 2500 m3 per cycle from a T1 strip miner. If you're looking at yield values in EFT, those are per minute, not per cycle. "Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 18:22:00 -
[28] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:Speed Destiny wrote:There is something I don't understand...
In my Procurer with:
1x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 2x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get the following yield 3228 m3.
However if I monkey with Mackinaw in EveHQ, and add to it:
2x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 3x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get 3518 m3
This is very odd since it has two miners, why the difference is so low? Ok what am I missing here? I get ( in a fleet) 2253m3 per cycle with maxed skills apart form only having Exhumers 4. All T2 gear as well. I even have mining drones at level 5 as well! My alt with Exhumers 5 gets 2275m3. With what ship and fit? That would really only make sense with, e.g., T2 strips with no crystals. A procurer with no mods, ganglinks, or other boosts will pull over 2500 m3 per cycle from a T1 strip miner. If you're looking at yield values in EFT, those are per minute, not per cycle.
T2 strips and Crystals. Both in Macks, 3xT2 mlu. I'm looking at per cycle as we speak. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
751
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 18:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:Speed Destiny wrote:There is something I don't understand...
In my Procurer with:
1x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 2x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get the following yield 3228 m3.
However if I monkey with Mackinaw in EveHQ, and add to it:
2x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 3x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get 3518 m3
This is very odd since it has two miners, why the difference is so low? Ok what am I missing here? I get ( in a fleet) 2253m3 per cycle with maxed skills apart form only having Exhumers 4. All T2 gear as well. I even have mining drones at level 5 as well! My alt with Exhumers 5 gets 2275m3. With what ship and fit? That would really only make sense with, e.g., T2 strips with no crystals. A procurer with no mods, ganglinks, or other boosts will pull over 2500 m3 per cycle from a T1 strip miner. If you're looking at yield values in EFT, those are per minute, not per cycle. T2 strips and Crystals. Both in Macks, 3xT2 mlu. I'm looking at per cycle as we speak.
...huh. Screenshot?
Are you sure you're not looking at the stats for just one laser? Because that would actually be spot on for a single strip miner II on a mackinaw with orca boosts. "Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 18:54:00 -
[30] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Drago Shouna wrote:Speed Destiny wrote:There is something I don't understand...
In my Procurer with:
1x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 2x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get the following yield 3228 m3.
However if I monkey with Mackinaw in EveHQ, and add to it:
2x Modulated Strip Miner II (Crystal II) 3x Mining Laser Upgrade II
I get 3518 m3
This is very odd since it has two miners, why the difference is so low? Ok what am I missing here? I get ( in a fleet) 2253m3 per cycle with maxed skills apart form only having Exhumers 4. All T2 gear as well. I even have mining drones at level 5 as well! My alt with Exhumers 5 gets 2275m3. With what ship and fit? That would really only make sense with, e.g., T2 strips with no crystals. A procurer with no mods, ganglinks, or other boosts will pull over 2500 m3 per cycle from a T1 strip miner. If you're looking at yield values in EFT, those are per minute, not per cycle. T2 strips and Crystals. Both in Macks, 3xT2 mlu. I'm looking at per cycle as we speak. ...huh. Screenshot? Are you sure you're not looking at the stats for just one laser? Because that would actually be spot on for a single strip miner II on a mackinaw with orca boosts.
Ok i'm thick :-) I'm looking at the output of a single strip miner at 2253 m3 and 2275 m3 rather than jointly ;/ Apologies and if I ever meet you I owe you a pint :-) |
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