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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
109
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Posted - 2014.05.28 16:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
This has bugged me on and off for ages GÇô almost all industrial processes in Eve require time: whether it be researching, copying, mining or building, your character has to wait it out. However, you can smelt millions of tons of ore instantly.
Isn't that both counter-intuitive and somewhat counter to general Eve principles? Most stuff is designed to take time and be faster with more corpmates involved. But the refining requirements of an entire alliance can be done by a single character.
It's weird. Let me just say that I don't want to arbitrarily increase anyone's grind, but it *is* weird right? Is there a reason for this? |
Jamagh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
212
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Posted - 2014.05.28 16:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think what happens is that the station has a big reserve of minerals sitting there and just hands you the amount that you would refine. Probably get the reserve from people that don't have the standings to get a perfect refine. Also they buy minerals off the market to fill your refine if they are low on some of them.... or to restock so they have an emergency amount there.
That has always been my theory. "Please stop reopening silly rumor threads."-á CCP Navigator. |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
109
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jamagh wrote:I think what happens is that the station has a big reserve of minerals sitting there and just hands you the amount that you would refine. Probably get the reserve from people that don't have the standings to get a perfect refine. Also they buy minerals off the market to fill your refine if they are low on some of them.... or to restock so they have an emergency amount there.
That has always been my theory.
Interesting. But then refining skills wouldn't make sense, surely? |
Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
199
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
This game doesn't need yet another boring time sink. Just leave it alone. |
Nagamor
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
11
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
The same technology that lets you obliterate rocks at 10km + is the same technology used for refining but with a bigger power allowance and more complicated facility. At higher energy levels you can reduce complicated constructions back to their base elements with relative ease.
Now, reassembling those elements back into plating and wiring and laser focusing arrays takes serious time as you're rebonding said elements back into very complex items. |
Karen Avioras
Unsung Heroes Spaceship Samurai
726
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Capsuleers are just really good at smelting ores. |
Komi Toran
Perkone Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
While we're at it, hasn't it also bugged you that you can take hundreds of thousands of m3 of goods, and just instantly move them from a freighter to a hanger, and vice-versa? Obviously, we need loading and offloading job qeues. |
Dave Stark
6027
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
cos there's nothing interesting or fun about having a mechanic where reprocessing has a delay. |
Cypherous
Evil Monkey Asylum Exploding Supremacy
89
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jamagh wrote:I think what happens is that the station has a big reserve of minerals sitting there and just hands you the amount that you would refine. Probably get the reserve from people that don't have the standings to get a perfect refine. Also they buy minerals off the market to fill your refine if they are low on some of them.... or to restock so they have an emergency amount there.
That has always been my theory.
Pretty much this, think of your refining skills as more a case of being able to barter for a better price as you're more aware of what goes in to each item you're selling them :P |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
110
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cristl wrote:Let me just say that I don't want to arbitrarily increase anyone's grind
Self-quote because comprehension is hard . I'm not advocating that refining should be a grind or time-sink. I just want to know why it has a unique existence.
But those pointing out that refining taking time would be boring, should explain what's so different and interesting about waiting to copy blueprints, or research the ME level on them, or research the PE level on them, or manufacture from them, or invent blueprint copies, or mine minerals, or do any of a thousand chores in Eve. Okay, I suppose mining exposes you to combat, but copying?!
Why is refining, which intuitively would be a slow process requiring many skilled individuals, instant, when (say) copying blueprints is a slow process? Why are chains of characters required to mass-research blueprints, but only one guy needed to refine massive amounts of minerals?
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Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
113
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cristl wrote:Cristl wrote:Let me just say that I don't want to arbitrarily increase anyone's grind Self-quote because comprehension is hard . I'm not advocating that refining should be a grind or time-sink. I just want to know why it has a unique existence. But those pointing out that refining taking time would be boring, should explain what's so different and interesting about waiting to copy blueprints, or research the ME level on them, or research the PE level on them, or manufacture from them, or invent blueprint copies, or mine minerals, or do any of a thousand chores in Eve. Okay, I suppose mining exposes you to combat, but copying?! Why is refining, which intuitively would be a slow process requiring many skilled individuals, instant, when (say) copying blueprints is a slow process? Why are chains of characters required to mass-research blueprints, but only one guy needed to refine massive amounts of minerals?
Maybe copying takes time because xerox went out of business thousands of years ago and we're back to monks copying everything? |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1145
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Because only our characters are immortal, not us.
The smallest possible scale model of the Universe is the Universe itself.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á |
Arronicus
X-Prot Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
1014
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Refining ore isn't instant at a POS, and that's part of the reason that noone bothers to do it there, because it is so ridiculously slow. I believe the reason it is instant is in part because adding a delay would not positively contribute to gameplay in any way/ |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3675
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Well, you could say reprocessing (we should get used to not calling it refining anymore) isn't instant, and you don't get back your own materials. Rather, you hand them over to the station personnel, and they give you the equivalent result. |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
111
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Posted - 2014.05.28 18:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Well, you could say reprocessing (we should get used to not calling it refining anymore) isn't instant, and you don't get back your own materials. Rather, you hand them over to the station personnel, and they give you the equivalent result.
Yeah, but I can't just hand them the minerals and instantly get a Rifter, can I?. So that's not consistent. Also, I don't care about roleplay crap or lore-justification, why is it there for gameplay reasons? The more I think about it, the more it just seems to make refining skills a worthless joke, which is annoying me (and I don't even refine)! |
Sibyyl
Brave Collective
1361
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Posted - 2014.05.28 18:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
If all data is digitally stored (which it damn well should be now) what is this archaic copying that we do?
In the year 2014 my handwriting is so bad because 99.9% of what I write is on a computer or mobile phone. But in EVE my blueprint calligraphy skills are blooming.. Travel to exotic solar systems, meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture, and strip ore from their ship hulls. Join BOVRL. Blood Miners take SOV.-á |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
545
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Posted - 2014.05.28 18:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:While we're at it, hasn't it also bugged you that you can take hundreds of thousands of m3 of goods, and just instantly move them from a freighter to a hanger, and vice-versa? Obviously, we need loading and offloading job qeues.
We also need an animated video sequence showing goods being transferred on or off the ship also. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22251
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 18:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
For the same reason as why repairing your ship is instant, even though it takes hours if you clog up the undock with a hull repper and some nano paste. For the same reason as why fitting your ship is instant, even though it takes ages to online modules and wait for the cap to come back over 95% every time. For the same reason as why insuring your ship does not require 800 forms filled out in triplicate and the reason why it doesn't take a week for your pity-n00bship to arrive once you blow up.
Because it would add nothing useful to gameplay and would in fact just make a lot of things worse. It's kind of the same as why compression is being made instant: because it's a time sink that just gets in the way of the intended purpose of moving stuff around long distances with less hassle. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
112
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Posted - 2014.05.28 18:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tippia wrote:For the same reason as why repairing your ship is instant, even though it takes hours if you clog up the undock with a hull repper and some nano paste. For the same reason as why fitting your ship is instant, even though it takes ages to online modules and wait for the cap to come back over 95% every time. For the same reason as why insuring your ship does not require 800 forms filled out in triplicate and the reason why it doesn't take a week for your pity-n00bship to arrive once you blow up.
Because it would add nothing useful to gameplay and would in fact just make a lot of things worse. It's kind of the same as why compression is being made instant: because it's a time sink that just gets in the way of the intended purpose of moving stuff around long distances with less hassle.
But that still doesn't differentiate it from a host of other activities. Okay, key question as far as I see it:
What is different about refining and its associated skills that sets it apart from other industry skills as far as time-sinking goes? Why aren't the refining skills silly from a gameplay point of view, given that one alt could do the refining for an infinite-sized corp or alliance? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22251
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 18:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cristl wrote:But that still doesn't differentiate it from a host of other activities. GǪsuch as?
Quote:What is different about refining and its associated skills that sets it apart from other industry skills as far as time-sinking goes? The difference is that there's no meaningful reason to slow it down. Another difference it that there are sufficient meaningful reasons to make it instant., such as how it would pointlessly penalise logistics (again, see compression being made instant). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
112
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Posted - 2014.05.28 19:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Cristl wrote:But that still doesn't differentiate it from a host of other activities. GǪsuch as?
I listed quite a few. But anyway: copying blueprints, mining, researching ME and PE, inventing, manufacturing T1 modules, manufacturing T1 ships, manufacturing T2 modules, manufacturing T2 ships, reverse engineering etc
Quote:Quote:What is different about refining and its associated skills that sets it apart from other industry skills as far as time-sinking goes? The difference is that there's no meaningful reason to slow it down. Another difference it that there are sufficient meaningful reasons to make it instant., such as how it would pointlessly penalise logistics (again, see compression being made instant).
Agh! Not nested quotes!
This isn't a thread about slowing things down. It's about why skills like research or manufacturing are beneficial to multiple characters, but refining skills are only needed on a single character per player bloc. It's not consistent. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22251
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 19:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cristl wrote:I listed quite a few. But anyway: copying blueprints, mining, researching ME and PE, inventing, manufacturing T1 modules, manufacturing T1 ships, manufacturing T2 modules, manufacturing T2 ships, reverse engineering etc GǪand it is differentiated from those in many ways. All of those are about creating stuff that feed into a market supply chain. Refining does not; the supply has already been fed by the creation of the stuff you chuck into it. There is nothing that needs to happen slower because the delays have already been incurred through the various creation processes.
Come to think, it's almost exactly like research: you spend time once, and then you gain an efficiency bonus. So there's your consistency if you want it.
Quote:This isn't a thread about slowing things down. It's about why skills like research or manufacturing are beneficial to multiple characters, but refining skills are only needed on a single character per player bloc. It's not consistent. GǪaside from needing more than a single player per player block, you mean, since it would be insanely inefficient to only have one refiner? Mainly because consistency is irrelevant.
The reason it is the way it is is because there is no reason for it to be any other way and tons of reasons for it not to generate the kind of delays that production processes do. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
3616
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 19:28:00 -
[23] - Quote
Why not add a candy crush mini-game to refining? The better you are at matching your minerals, the faster and better you refine. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Minarete
Celestial Hoard TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
1
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Posted - 2014.05.28 19:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
I have always wanted to know why we do not have to refuel ALL ships |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
113
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Posted - 2014.05.28 20:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tippia wrote:All of those are about creating stuff that feed into a market supply chain. Refining does not; the supply has already been fed by the creation of the stuff you chuck into it.
Huh? Refining doesn't feed into a market supply chain? That's illogical. Also, "the supply has already been fed by the creation of the stuff you chuck into it" hardly makes sense. I know you're not a native English speaker, and I couldn't even attempt to say anything in Swedish, but that still doesn't make sense.
Ok, please explain in terms that a drunk could understand why turning veldspar and scordite into tritanium and pyerite should be instant but require skills, while turning tritanium and pyerite into carbonised lead or whatever should take skills and time. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
409
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tenchi Sal wrote:This game doesn't need yet another boring time sink. Just leave it alone. Dave Stark wrote:cos there's nothing interesting or fun about having a mechanic where reprocessing has a delay. OP, you got the best possible answers within the first 6 replies.
Other than that, nobody really knows. |
Scarlett LaBlanc
Midnight Savran Industries
97
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Since you asked for to be THAT simple...
When a person goes mining they don't go mining for ore. They want MINERALS. To get it, they have to invest time.
There is no need to invest time again to turn it into a useable form.
Everything (at least that I can think of) requires some investment of real time. Your suggesting that harvesting minerals require a time sink twice. For what purpose?
To make that consistent with the rest of game play you would need a time que to build something and then another time sink to deliver the job! |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Tenchi Sal wrote:This game doesn't need yet another boring time sink. Just leave it alone. Dave Stark wrote:cos there's nothing interesting or fun about having a mechanic where reprocessing has a delay. OP, you got the best possible answers within the first 6 replies. Other than that, nobody really knows.
*sigh* The OP is about 100 words. However, for the twitter generation, here's a portion of the OP:
Cristl wrote:... I don't want to arbitrarily increase anyone's grind ...
Okay. Let's try a reverse argument: Why do other aspects of item creation take time, skills and are enhanced by collaboration but the step ORE -> MINERALS is done by a single alt instantly?
I don't give a shit about lore, but just from a game-mechanics standpoint as far as I can see reprocessing skills are getting the short end of the stick in eve.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
409
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Posted - 2014.05.28 20:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:Since you asked for to be THAT simple...
When a person goes mining they don't go mining for ore. They want MINERALS. To get it, they have to invest time.
There is no need to invest time again to turn it into a useable form.
Everything (at least that I can think of) requires some investment of real time. Your suggesting that harvesting minerals require a time sink twice. For what purpose?
To make that consistent with the rest of game play you would need a time que to build something and then another time sink to deliver the job! Actually this is a good one.
Also, refining/reprocessing is the first step in building things. It's the same for anything you want to build and you have no control over the results. So, a time sink isn't really needed as it is to, say, make ammo production much faster than t2 battleship production. |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:Since you asked for to be THAT simple...
When a person goes mining they don't go mining for ore. They want MINERALS. To get it, they have to invest time.
There is no need to invest time again to turn it into a useable form.
Everything (at least that I can think of) requires some investment of real time. Your suggesting that harvesting minerals require a time sink twice. For what purpose?
To make that consistent with the rest of game play you would need a time que to build something and then another time sink to deliver the job!
But don't you see that people who spent time learning refining skills get shafted because a single alt can do the refining for 10,000 of his or her pals? That's not eve-like is it? Asteroid -> Ore -> Minerals -> T1 goods should all take time shouldn't they? Why is the second step instant in that chain? |
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