Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
409
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
Please do not get unnecessarilly excited. Instead, make an effort to read more carefully, ok?
I'll do my best to help.
Cristl wrote:... I don't want to arbitrarily increase anyone's grind ... Nor does CCP. They thought delayed refining would be uninteresting and not fun (quoting Dave), so they made it instant.
Hopefully it's clear now. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2770
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ive always wondered how 50 cubic meters of armor can cover a Titan in a layer 1.6 meters thick. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:51:00 -
[33] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Please do not get unnecessarilly (sic) excited. Instead, make an effort to read more carefully, ok?
Literally made me laugh out loud, so cheers for that . If you can give me a link to that dev quote then I'll promise to be less excitable in the future |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2770
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:53:00 -
[34] - Quote
Minarete wrote:I have always wanted to know why we do not have to refuel ALL ships Ships run on deuterium recovered from...ah..."waste water" produced by the crew. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Ive always wondered how 50 cubic meters of armor can cover a Titan in a layer 1.6 meters thick.
If you start down that road Vince, you'll ask why lasers have a long optimal but short falloff, while projectiles have the opposite. Just don't go there. Why does space have friction and an 'up' etc. Nope
Gameplay questions are always up for review though.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
409
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cristl wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Please do not get unnecessarilly (sic) excited. Instead, make an effort to read more carefully, ok? Literally made me laugh out loud, so cheers for that . If you can give me a link to that dev quote then I'll promise to be less excitable in the future No need for a dev quote. If they're rehauling industry and haven't changed this, it means that they're convinced that there's no good gameplay reason to do so.
Also see my other post for my personal best guess: you can only get predetermined thing(s) out of reprocessing. No variations = no need to time-differentiate 'complex' products from 'simple' ones. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1504
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:03:00 -
[37] - Quote
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:Since you asked for to be THAT simple...
When a person goes mining they don't go mining for ore. They want MINERALS. To get it, they have to invest time.
There is no need to invest time again to turn it into a useable form.
Everything (at least that I can think of) requires some investment of real time. Your suggesting that harvesting minerals require a time sink twice. For what purpose?
To make that consistent with the rest of game play you would need a time que to build something and then another time sink to deliver the job! this logic leads to instant copying. After all you already spent some time researching BPO.... The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1505
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Tenchi Sal wrote:This game doesn't need yet another boring time sink. Just leave it alone. Dave Stark wrote:cos there's nothing interesting or fun about having a mechanic where reprocessing has a delay. OP, you got the best possible answers within the first 6 replies. Other than that, nobody really knows. Actually there is better answer: this is just another half-ass designed feature. It was implemented once and then everybody from CCP just forgot about it. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Ohhhh Feely Nice
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:11:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Cristl wrote:I listed quite a few. But anyway: copying blueprints, mining, researching ME and PE, inventing, manufacturing T1 modules, manufacturing T1 ships, manufacturing T2 modules, manufacturing T2 ships, reverse engineering etc GǪand it is differentiated from those in many ways. All of those are about creating stuff that feed into a market supply chain. Refining does not; the supply has already been fed by the creation of the stuff you chuck into it. There is nothing that needs to happen slower because the delays have already been incurred through the various creation processes. Come to think, it's almost exactly like research: you spend time once, and then you gain an efficiency bonus. So there's your consistency if you want it. Refined minerals sell for more and are more useful than ores. It should therefore require some time to achieve the result. When you research or invent a blueprint, you spend time once. Should the product manufacture itself instantly because of that?
Tippia wrote:Quote:This isn't a thread about slowing things down. It's about why skills like research or manufacturing are beneficial to multiple characters, but refining skills are only needed on a single character per player bloc. It's not consistent. GǪaside from needing more than a single player per player block, you mean, since it would be insanely inefficient to only have one refiner? Mainly because consistency is irrelevant The reason it is the way it is is because there is no reason for it to be any other way and tons of reasons for it not to generate the kind of delays that production processes do. It's a balance issue, that is the reason. You are taking X item and converting it into Y item. You are doing so because it is advantageous. This coincides quite nicely with research and the like and should be balanced accordingly.
I am also unsure of how you've concluded it would be "insanely inefficient" when no one has offered any numbers as to how long it should take to refine. |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: ...they're rehauling (sic) industry and haven't changed this, it means that they're convinced that there's no good gameplay reason to do so...
Don't be naive, they could quite easily just be scared of pissing tons of people off. I'm still waiting for a reasoned argument for refining skills being redundant for all but one dude per group of players. |
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
409
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Actually there is better answer: this is just another half-ass designed feature. It was implemented once and then everybody from CCP just forgot about it. That's entirely possible, too. Especially considering that within a game economy as complex as EVE's, it's impractical to say 'oops we forgot about that' years later and plss-off the whole industrial playerbase. |
Ohhhh Feely Nice
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
Guys... so upset right now. I just flew all the way to the market, bought this BPO, and spent several days researching it. Now it's telling me I have to wait AGAIN to manufacture a new item with it?
But... I've already spent time once!!!!
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22252
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:42:00 -
[43] - Quote
Cristl wrote:Huh? Refining doesn't feed into a market supply chain? Nope. It is only a stumbling block between asteroids and minerals. For all intents and purposes, you could just as well remove ore and just mine minerals directly GÇö it's the mining that does the actual item creation. Refining is just there to provide a second stage of (in)efficiency in how that material is taken to market.
Quote:Ok, please explain in terms that a drunk could understand why turning veldspar and scordite into tritanium and pyerite should be instant but require skills, while turning tritanium and pyerite into carbonised lead or whatever should take skills and time. Turning a rock into tritanium takes time and skill (and a process that varies how efficient you are at it called refining); turning tritanium into carbonised lead takes time and skills (and a process that varies how efficient you are at it called ME research).
You are confusing the parts with the whole and thinking that each part should be like every other part for no apparent or reason.
Refining takes no time because it would be idiotic and bad gameplay if it did. It's that simple. Everything else is pointless navel-gazing. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22252
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ohhhh Feely Nice wrote:Refined minerals sell for more and are more useful than ores. GǪbecause someone couldn't be arsed to trained the skills involved. That's the value of your SP you're seeing, nothing else. It should therefore nothing GÇö it already requires some time to achieve this result.
Oh, and refined minerals sell for than ore because ore is effectively useless. It only serves one purpose: to go through the final step of the materials creation process and be refined into something you can use for a vast number of different things.
Quote:It's a balance issue, that is the reason. You are taking X item and converting it into Y item. You are doing so because it is advantageous. This coincides quite nicely with research and the like and should be balanced accordingly. No. You do so because you must. If you don't you have a whole pile of worthless junk. It also is balanced like research: you spend time to increase your efficiency.
Quote:I am also unsure of how you've concluded it would be "insanely inefficient" when no one has offered any numbers as to how long it should take to refine. Because how long it should take is not relevant to what I said. It would be insanely inefficient to have one refiner per player block. This conclusion is blindingly obvious if you take a second to think of how it would work if only one person in the closest 5 regions could refine stuff. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 22:10:00 -
[45] - Quote
Will reply later, it's 6am here right now. I still don't think the refine skill owners are properly recompensed. Do you have an opinion!? Post it now?! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22255
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 22:55:00 -
[46] - Quote
Cristl wrote:I still don't think the refine skill owners are properly recompensed. Read up on the industry changes. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Xavier Higdon
Callide Vulpis Curatores Veritatis Alliance
338
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 23:51:00 -
[47] - Quote
In answer to your first question, no.
In answer to your second question, yes.
Is there anything else you need? |
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm. Black Flag Society
79
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 03:09:00 -
[48] - Quote
Everything in this game is essentially arbitrary. Moon goo requires 2 steps that both require time to be made useful. And for many items, a third step.
Logic would indicate that refining would take time and if implemented from the beginning of the game tippia would be arguing why it's important. Yet because ccp is arbitrary, we are having this conversation. Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Lowsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. www.capitalstorm.net |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1837
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 03:17:00 -
[49] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Why not add a candy crush mini-game to refining? The better you are at matching your minerals, the faster and better you refine.
Why not play candy crush instead? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Belt Scout
Thread Lockaholics Anonymous
447
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 04:29:00 -
[50] - Quote
Do not try and refine the ore. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
What truth?
There is no ore.
Then you'll see, that it is not the ore that gets refined, it is only yourself.
.
Now take this red pill and stop rollplaying.
They say most of your brain shuts down on the EvE forums. All but the primitive side, the sarcastic side. No wonder I'm still awake. |
|
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
611
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 04:57:00 -
[51] - Quote
excellent question. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
327
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 05:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
[headcanon] It's not, what happens is you give the station your materials and they turn this around to give you the refined equivalent with 2 or 3 percent less than usual that they have laying around on hand, then they sell the mods to all sorts of pirates and malcontents, refine the ore and use some of the money to buy more resources to trade to space sociopaths. [/headcanon] "If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
4629
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 14:36:00 -
[53] - Quote
Smashing things is quicker and more fun than making them "A naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares "As Ramona previously mentioned, that is correct." --áISD Supogo |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Panhandle Industries Order of the Exalted
598
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 17:38:00 -
[54] - Quote
Benefit to delayed refining: Refining turns into a real profession.
Issues with delayed refining: Really REALLY annoying. Adds another step in the process.
Delayed refining may have been a good idea if it were implemented at launch, but adding it now would just be annoying. Current industrial jobs would have to have production time and mineral amounts changed to compensate. Mining and selling ore would be less profitable in comparison, while mineral prices would increase. Over all its a lot of work for very little payout. Currently the refining skills make little sense (I assume that the stations keep mineral stockpiles and trade them to you for the unrefined material, this makes sense why standing affect refine amount), but the reverse would be true if delayed refining were added. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
Cristl
Perkone Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 19:26:00 -
[55] - Quote
^ Pretty much my interpretation.
But given that a whole new industry revamp is nigh, wouldn't now be a good time to change things? Like I said, I don't for a moment think that total time to market needs to be increased, but you could add a refining stage and speed up other stages like mining or blueprint operations to compensate.
The key thing is that attaching skills to zero-duration tasks is poor design. Obviously all of us with significant stuff to refine choose the option of "my mate John who knows a friend of Kevin Bacon whose aunt bought an alt with perfect refine skills..." or whatever - because we aren't idiots - but these rules are inherently counter to Eve principles found almost everywhere else.
Or, just send refining-skills to the learning-skills graveyard perhaps? |
Paul Panala
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
168
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 19:52:00 -
[56] - Quote
It was probably setup that way in the beginning to reduce the number of ongoing tasks the servers had to keep up with. While it might be more realistic to fix that at this point, you are going to upset a lot of people. |
Scarlett LaBlanc
Midnight Savran Industries
97
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 20:28:00 -
[57] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:Since you asked for to be THAT simple...
When a person goes mining they don't go mining for ore. They want MINERALS. To get it, they have to invest time.
There is no need to invest time again to turn it into a useable form.
Everything (at least that I can think of) requires some investment of real time. Your suggesting that harvesting minerals require a time sink twice. For what purpose?
To make that consistent with the rest of game play you would need a time que to build something and then another time sink to deliver the job! this logic leads to instant copying. After all you already spent some time researching BPO....
That is in NO way accurate.
When you harvest minerals the time sink is strip miner cycle time
When you research a BPO the time sink provides you improved ME/PE
When you copy a BPO the time sink provides you COPIES
Improved ME does not equal copies |
Scarlett LaBlanc
Midnight Savran Industries
97
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 20:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ohhhh Feely Nice wrote:Guys... so upset right now. I just flew all the way to the market, bought this BPO, and spent several days researching it. Now it's telling me I have to wait AGAIN to manufacture a new item with it? But... I've already spent time once!!!!
You researched for IMPROVED ME or cheeper builds. That was the benifit, why should that also provide instant manufacture?
Sorry for the double post, but.....
Staring to feel like I've been trolled. |
eFart
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 01:00:00 -
[59] - Quote
u can refine it later if u want u just plan when ull pick it up like in 3 hours then you come in 3 hours then u refine and then u pick it up |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
459
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 01:50:00 -
[60] - Quote
Cristl wrote: I just want to know why it has a unique existence.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |