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Yarda Black
Epidemic. Nulli Secunda
173
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:57:00 -
[181] - Quote
I'm not against rental empires. I have no benefit from it since "old" SRP was way better than anything current blocks have to offer. As a "soldier" I was way better off in the "old" armies. My first dread was given to me by RA for example.
But I don't fight in armies because of the SRP. I started doing it when there was no such thing. If you wanted to join a fleet, you payed a ticket. That ticket was your ship. That also means that, with SRP, I'm more of a mercenary these days. My paycheck just dropped like crazy.
I think the creation of player controlled high-sec is awesome. In my opinion nullsec is about building an empire of your own. Since 1 man empires make no sense, there will always be "spacetyrants" whose power is based on the effort of others. These people earned that position by spending time on diplomacy, metagaming and generally worrying about stuff I don't care about. For me its a decent trade.
As for dealing with these empires; I agree with those that made the following claim:
Any gamemechanic aimed at nerfing a large group will affect a small group more. Large groups have more assets, isk, players and ability to deal with this mechanic than small groups will. |
De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2123
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Posted - 2014.06.09 16:30:00 -
[182] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:De'Veldrin wrote: Really this is the key - you can't impact the meta game with game mechanics. In the end what would need to change this is to change how rapidly alliances can respond to an attack, and how rapidly they NEED to respond to an attack. Now, they only need to respond once every seven days to prevent loss of sov. Even a crippled monkey with one bad eye could manage to move a defense fleet into position in that kind of time.
The only thing that would cripple the rental feudalism we have no is if the renters suddenly had to defend the space they were holding because their landlords couldn't deploy their own forces fast enough. That's where the power projection nerfs come in. if the renters suddenly have to defend the space, they're not going to want to rent it, they're going to want to own it - they may as well, since they now have the headaches of sov defense.
So wait, you want either: 1) All sov structures destructable/capturable without any timers or 2) Cooldown of x days to jump any jump capable ship?
Um. *looks back at own post* WTF dude, you have "I'll just make this **** up" trained to level 6? Not only are both of those ideas terrible, they're also very extreme, and in no way the only options availble to bring balance to the force. Tripling the size of nullsec would also go a long way to curbing the power projection issue (also, probably not a great idea, but there you have it).
My point is, and it's the same point others have made, this situation is a direct result of the fact that you can jump a capital fleet halfway across the game universe in about 15 minutes, smack the hell out of anyone attacking your home sov, and then jump back to your real war (or gudfites). Defending huge swaths of sov space is trivially easy - it's that trivally part that needs fixing. GÇ£SandboxGÇ¥ does not mean that you will succeed at anything you attempt; it means you can attempt anything you want to succeed at. One of the largest obstacles in the way of your success is other players. |
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
64
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Posted - 2014.06.09 16:45:00 -
[183] - Quote
So:
1) Use income from renter empire to fortify and defend nullsec sphere of interest, including building cap fleets of immeasurable power projection potential.
2) Use increased military might to extend empire by negotiating/strongarming immediate neighbors into NAPs/renter alliances. Increases renter income over time.
3) Make - possibly time limited - NAPs with any power block large enough to be a credible threat to your renter empire.
4) Enforce / demand mandatory fleet participation levels of friendly PvP coalition 'partners', yet don't enforce this except during times of dire need / risk from (the) other major nullsec power block(s).
5) Use renter income to implement SRP among your own core alliance in place of mandatory fleet participation policies, possibly even allowing common line soldiers to directly profit from any PvP losses. Ensures high 'core' fleet participation in case of dire need (IE. any major battle, which actually matters).
6) Use renter income to fund suicide/harassment campaigns of independent PvE players living in HiSec, directly or indirectly (Burn Jita, Miniluv, COREdot...). Serves several purposes: - Entertaining your own PvP line members during periods of nullsec peace. - Making it harder for your own members to 'defect' back to HiSec due to their low sec status 'earned' during HiSec ganking campaigns. - 'Enticing' the HiSec 'pubbies' to join your legions of PvE renter slaves. Over time more renter slaves means increased renter income.
7) Goto 1. Rinse. Repeat.
If this is accurate, then over time we should see an increased level of HiSec harassment, as the disposable income and logistics resources available to The Lord of the Flies increase in proportion to the number of renter peons. Eventually this could make an independent existence in Empire unsustainable. Consider the current number of gankers active in HiSec at any given time is probably less than a few hundred or so.
I feel like Dinsdale now. Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EVE-oconomy and o-kay for you. |
Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
1810
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 16:48:00 -
[184] - Quote
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:So: 1) Use income from renter empire to fortify and defend nullsec sphere of interest, including building cap fleets of immeasurable power projection potential. 2) Use increased military might to extend empire by negotiating/strongarming immediate neighbors into NAPs/renter alliances. Increases renter income over time. 3) Make - possibly time limited - NAPs with any power block large enough to be a credible threat to your renter empire. 4) Enforce / demand mandatory fleet participation levels of friendly PvP coalition 'partners', yet don't enforce this except during times of dire need / risk from (the) other major nullsec power block(s). 5) Use renter income to implement SRP among your own core alliance in place of mandatory fleet participation policies, possibly even allowing common line soldiers to directly profit from any PvP losses. Ensures high 'core' fleet participation in case of dire need (IE. any major battle, which actually matters). 6) Use renter income to fund suicide/harassment campaigns of independent PvE players living in HiSec, directly or indirectly (Burn Jita, Miniluv, COREdot...). Serves many purposes: Entertaining your own PvP line members during periods of nullsec peace, making it harder for your own members to 'defect' back to HiSec due to their low sec status 'earned' during HiSec ganking campaigns, *and* to 'entice' the PvE HiSec 'pubbies' to join your legions of PvE renter slaves. Over time more renter slaves means increased renter income. 7) Goto 1. Rinse. Repeat. If this is accurate, then over time we should see an increased level of HiSec harassment, as the disposable income and logistics resources available to The Lord of the Flies increase in proportion to the number of renter peons. Eventually this could make an independent existence in Empire unsustainable. Consider the current number of gankers active in HiSec at any given time is probably less than a few hundred or so. I feel like Dinsdale now.
Dude, you can't be Dinsdale unless you throw in a step about RMT, and say something about nullsec cartels controlling CCP.
In game power equals out of game power, yaknow. This thread officially has 25% more pssssssshhh than leading competitors. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5056
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 16:49:00 -
[185] - Quote
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:If this is accurate, then over time we should see an increased level of HiSec harassment, as the disposable income and logistics resources available to The Lord of the Flies increase in proportion to the number of renter peons. Eventually this could make an independent existence in Empire unsustainable. Consider the current number of gankers active in HiSec at any given time is probably less than a few hundred or so. I feel like Dinsdale now.
Well... correct and hurrah to the first point (Death to the Empire NPC Overlords and the False Emperor)
But Im not sure your figures are quite right on the "independant existance" or gankers.
And you aren't like Dinsdale, because you are seeing it as a weakening of the NPC Empires power, which it is, and not a dastardly scheme to get at Dinsdale, which it isnt. "A naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
426
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 16:50:00 -
[186] - Quote
Who does OP think renters are renting from? We didn't regress, we are just adding a new level.
Next in emergent gameplay: Sub-Leasing That is REALLY going to **** you off.
In either case, CFC is still Pew Pewing away, so if you want to restore balance to the universe, come out and do something about it, maybe? Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
64
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 17:07:00 -
[187] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Dude, you can't be Dinsdale unless you throw in a step about RMT, and say something about nullsec cartels controlling CCP. OK, great, not Dinsdale then.
If - as is to be expected - TPTB in nullsec / CFC / PLN3 are reasonably intelligent, then they wouldn't touch RMT or any attempts at influencing devs outside the ToS/CCP policies. Any provably true allegations on either of those points are really the only potential problems, which has a chance of uprooting the ISK/power generation machine I outlined above.
Personally I'd actively and genuinely try to stomp any such illegal activities, if I were in the shoes of TPTB in either of the major nullsec power blocks. Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EVE-oconomy and o-kay for you. |
Garandras
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
189
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 04:55:00 -
[188] - Quote
I have to say I am loving the amount of blame Goons for this renting culture..
Goons were basically the last to jump on the renting bandwagon |
Eyrun Mangeiri
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
12
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 07:28:00 -
[189] - Quote
Garandras wrote:I have to say I am loving the amount of blame Goons for this renting culture..
Goons were basically the last to jump on the renting bandwagon
But... Grrr Goons? I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn they will be gone - whispering their hidden song. |
Aine Morchet
State War Academy Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 08:15:00 -
[190] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:
So with this in mind short of CCP magically removing all Carriers / Dreads / Supers / Titans / Isk / BPO's from the game what exactly do you want them to do?
Would be pretty awesome if they did that. But as you say, won't happen.
Would also be nice if cynojamming were made way better/easier, like the mobile cyno inhibitor activated instantly, was reusable, and jammed a larger radius. The existing powers will find a way to game that most efficiently as well in the end, but at least you can ensure that your small gang roam will never get hotdropped. |
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Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague
121
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 08:26:00 -
[191] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote: Um. *looks back at own post* WTF dude, you have "I'll just make this **** up" trained to level 6? Not only are both of those ideas terrible, they're also very extreme, and in no way the only options availble to bring balance to the force. Tripling the size of nullsec would also go a long way to curbing the power projection issue (also, probably not a great idea, but there you have it).
My point is, and it's the same point others have made, this situation is a direct result of the fact that you can jump a capital fleet halfway across the game universe in about 15 minutes, smack the hell out of anyone attacking your home sov, and then jump back to your real war (or gudfites). Defending huge swaths of sov space is trivially easy - it's that trivally part that needs fixing.
Well how would you then fix it? There are really no options than artificially locking the mechanisms which are used for travel in the current form with a cooldown or a limit of some sort. Former already exists via the jump cap requirement, but with a few cap mods it's a moot point. |
De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2130
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 13:39:00 -
[192] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Well how would you then fix it? There are really no options than artificially locking the mechanisms which are used for travel in the current form with a cooldown or a limit of some sort. Former already exists via the jump cap requirement, but with a few cap mods it's a moot point.
In broad (general, purposefully vague) terms, I'd do three things:
1. Make space worth fighting for and holding on to. 2. Make it harder to hold vast swathes of space (nerfing power projection is a start), making #1 harder to accomplish. 3. Increase the overall size of nullsec by a factor of at least 3, which increases travel times, thus increasing the effects of #2.
More specifically:
1. Partially rollback the dumbass changes that made not living in your space while getting stupidly rich possible. (System security nerfs I'm looking at you). That makes the systems worth living in for the people that actually own them. It also makes them worth fighting over again. Of course, the smaller alliances are going to get roflstomped unless we do...
2. Nerf the hell out of capital ship travel, especially bridging. (Blops can stay pretty much as they are - they're already fairly limited in range and what they can bridge in). I would cut jump and bridge ranges by about 1/3, and double the fuel requirements (bays stay the same size, which incrases the logistical issues of jumping long ranges from home ports). Now moving a large fleet oif capital ships takes more planning than a fifteen minute conversation about which gatecamp to hotdrop the Nyx fleet on. But that doesn't really help against the subcaps so...
3. Nullsec currently has about 3500 starsystems, and I'd be willing to wager an interceptor gang could visit every one of them in a single day if they tried. So triple it - 10,000 nullsec star systems spread out like twinkling diamonds surrounding the burning Rome that is Empire space. "But but Logistics!". Yup, it's gonna suck. If you're on the fringes, it might take you 10, 12, or more jumps just to reach lowsec. But it also means that roaming gangs are going to be more likely to prey on their neighbors instead of blueing them and flying to the other side of the map looking for lol-pvp. It means that a small industrial alliance out on the fringe now has a reason for living, and just might get some benefit from being squashed in next to a PvP centric one (they make the guns their neighbors use, etc), instead of constantly getting gatecamped to hell and back.
Improve nullsec industry (come on Crius!) so it can manufacture more like 75 - 80% of what they need, and make certain materials only available in certain areas of highsec or lowsec space so trade becomes more or less required without causing it to be bottlenecked like technicium was. Hihsec moon mining - yes, make it A THINGGäó.
Yes, these ideas are radical. And once CCP starts down the path, they would have to commit to reaching the end of it, otherwise they would severely break the game. So it won't happen, but a chap can dream, right? GÇ£SandboxGÇ¥ does not mean that you will succeed at anything you attempt; it means you can attempt anything you want to succeed at. One of the largest obstacles in the way of your success is other players. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
734
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 13:42:00 -
[193] - Quote
Garandras wrote:I have to say I am loving the amount of blame Goons for this renting culture..
Goons were basically the last to jump on the renting bandwagon
It's hard to 4x4 through the sandbox while towing renters. It is really hard to change your signature settings |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
734
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 13:43:00 -
[194] - Quote
Double Post.... Grr Goons. It is really hard to change your signature settings |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5092
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 13:49:00 -
[195] - Quote
Invade fricking High Sec already "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. "Question asked, insults exchanged, solutions given, face palms had, problem solved, off topic posts posted, thread locked." - ISD Ezwal |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar E.A.R.T.H. Federation
533
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 13:53:00 -
[196] - Quote
I fail to see how ingame entities acting more like real world factions is a bad thing. At least the renters are using the space.
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De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2130
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 13:55:00 -
[197] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Invade fricking High Sec already
And then rent it back out to the people who use it! Wait... GÇ£SandboxGÇ¥ does not mean that you will succeed at anything you attempt; it means you can attempt anything you want to succeed at. One of the largest obstacles in the way of your success is other players. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5092
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 13:55:00 -
[198] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:I fail to see how ingame entities acting more like real world factions is a bad thing. At least the renters are using the space. Exactly, plus these small Alliances wouldnt even be able to hold Sov on their own no matter what the rules were, so at least this way they have access to Null. "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. "Question asked, insults exchanged, solutions given, face palms had, problem solved, off topic posts posted, thread locked." - ISD Ezwal |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5092
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 13:55:00 -
[199] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Invade fricking High Sec already And then rent it back out to the people who use it! Wait...
Exactly! What's wrong with that?
At least you would be dealing with human beings and not renting from faceless NPCs and the False Emperor "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. "Question asked, insults exchanged, solutions given, face palms had, problem solved, off topic posts posted, thread locked." - ISD Ezwal |
De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2130
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 14:00:00 -
[200] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:I fail to see how ingame entities acting more like real world factions is a bad thing. At least the renters are using the space. It's bad becuse this is a game, and games are supposed to be fun. Landlord Online sounds like a pretty crappy game title, tbh. There's a couple of reasons that the nullsec entities don't use that space they're renting:
A. They don't have to, and B. It's not worth the effort of using it, anyway.
So they rent it to people who wouldn't be able to get into nullsec any other way, which is fine, except that now the bored PvPers have to fly farther to find people to shoot. Which results in boredom and frustration whenthey fly all the way out there to find no fights. So the bored Pvpers unsub - which damages the game because we have less content creators. So more people unsub. And so on.
Unsub due to boredom is the beginning of the death spiral for all games, not just Eve. But if CCP catches it early enough, they can excise it like a cancer, and we can have another 10 years. GÇ£SandboxGÇ¥ does not mean that you will succeed at anything you attempt; it means you can attempt anything you want to succeed at. One of the largest obstacles in the way of your success is other players. |
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar E.A.R.T.H. Federation
533
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 14:08:00 -
[201] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Val'Dore wrote:I fail to see how ingame entities acting more like real world factions is a bad thing. At least the renters are using the space. It's bad becuse this is a game, and games are supposed to be fun. Landlord Online sounds like a pretty crappy game title, tbh. There's a couple of reasons that the nullsec entities don't use that space they're renting: A. They don't have to, and B. It's not worth the effort of using it, anyway. So they rent it to people who wouldn't be able to get into nullsec any other way, which is fine, except that now the bored PvPers have to fly farther to find people to shoot. Which results in boredom and frustration whenthey fly all the way out there to find no fights. So the bored Pvpers unsub - which damages the game because we have less content creators. So more people unsub. And so on. Unsub due to boredom is the beginning of the death spiral for all games, not just Eve. But if CCP catches it early enough, they can excise it like a cancer, and we can have another 10 years.
I don't believe rental space is the disease, it is the symptom. It's one reason I designed Sovereignty 2.0 the way I did, to encourage procedural conquest without exponential growth while providing benefits to actually owning and using the space. But of course, CCP ignored the soul of the idea and what we have now is a bastard child.
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Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
121
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 14:13:00 -
[202] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:
So they rent it to people who wouldn't be able to get into nullsec any other way, which is fine, except that now the bored PvPers have to fly farther to find people to shoot. Which results in boredom and frustration whenthey fly all the way out there to find no fights. So the bored Pvpers unsub - which damages the game because we have less content creators. So more people unsub. And so on.
They have to fly farther into nullsec to do what? Attack the core of the landlords or just headshot the renters?
What happened to Catch and Provi being the best areas to do random PvP in? |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
3749
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 14:17:00 -
[203] - Quote
Maybe with the new development cycles they'll manage to chew through everything related to sov and no longer choke when they try to swallow the thing whole for a biannual release cycle. It seems to me POS and sov are the fermented shark bits of EVE Online. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2131
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 14:19:00 -
[204] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:
I don't believe rental space is the disease, it is the symptom.
And I agree with you on that - it's the symptom of a lot of the things that wrong with nullsec. GÇ£SandboxGÇ¥ does not mean that you will succeed at anything you attempt; it means you can attempt anything you want to succeed at. One of the largest obstacles in the way of your success is other players. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5099
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 14:24:00 -
[205] - Quote
Again, there would be plenty of PVP if they would invade the damn Empires "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. "Question asked, insults exchanged, solutions given, face palms had, problem solved, off topic posts posted, thread locked." - ISD Ezwal |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
103
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 17:15:00 -
[206] - Quote
Rent? Why pay rent for null space? All you need is a T3, a secure container and a mobile depot and all of null sec is yours. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2520
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 17:59:00 -
[207] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Again, there would be plenty of PVP if they would invade the damn Empires
Let us take highsec sov :getin:. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Proof Highsec reward needs to be nerfed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqC-BTui2uSGdDlxa2dWOG5ieHB0QXBVWW82bGN5TFE&usp=sharing |
In-Game Tools Please
Republic University Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 18:02:00 -
[208] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Again, there would be plenty of PVP if they would invade the damn Empires Let us take highsec sov :getin:. Thought Goons got along with James. Why you taking his territory? |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2521
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 18:07:00 -
[209] - Quote
In-Game Tools Please wrote:La Nariz wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Again, there would be plenty of PVP if they would invade the damn Empires Let us take highsec sov :getin:. Thought Goons got along with James. Why you taking his territory?
Money as always, we only want dodixie, jita, amarr, rens, and hek. James can have the rest. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Proof Highsec reward needs to be nerfed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqC-BTui2uSGdDlxa2dWOG5ieHB0QXBVWW82bGN5TFE&usp=sharing |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5137
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 18:09:00 -
[210] - Quote
Seriously though, jam as much firepower and tonnage into one Amarr-owned system as you can and demand that the system be ceded to you.
Set a precedent.
Make the False Emperor take you seriously "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. "Question asked, insults exchanged, solutions given, face palms had, problem solved, off topic posts posted, thread locked." - ISD Ezwal |
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