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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6821
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Posted - 2014.06.07 12:44:00 -
[121] - Quote
Axe Coldon wrote: The people that want to gank would whine and cry and complain..but the game would be better off and more new players would stay in the game.
New players don't have freighters. At least be honest about your selfish, entitled motivations.
Quote: Criminal activity in high sec has gotten out of hand.
CCP's own numbers they have provided us about destruction of ships disagrees. In fact it's at a very low ebb in the last few years. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 12:49:00 -
[122] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:
The hauler could just insure himself by making a courier contract to outsource the risk to another hauler. Another idea.
But besides this, you missed my point. If the hauler refuses to take the risk of hauling, he doesn't haul and essentially doesn't get paid. If a ganker refuses to gank because he thinks the target isn't ideal, he doesn't get paid either.
Lol come on now. Outsourcing doesnt touch the issue at all. It's still an issue for the ppl u outsourced to xD.
This is why your point is offbase: Correct me if I have misinterpreted something here. you are saying:
Quote: The hauler could avoid a gank by choosing not to haul, but wont get paid The ganker could refuse to gank, but wont get paid. Therefore, the risk taken by haulers and gankers is very similar.
The major problem with this logic is that it is comparing the risks of inactivity. You could compare any professions in this way. For example:
Quote: A hisec mission runner could avoid loosing his ship by not running missions, but he doesnt get paid A null ratter could avoid loosing his ship by not ratting, but he doesnt get paid. Therefore, the risks of hisec mission running and null ratting are very similar.
Sure, if both are logged off or sitting in a station, the risks are the same; however, the risks when engaging in said professions are very different.
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chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
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Posted - 2014.06.07 12:52:00 -
[123] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Astroniomix wrote: It's kinda like how since I don't run red lights, there is no risk to running red lights.
Did I get that right?
If we are going to use RL examples; Flying an untanked, cargo expanded hauler stuffed full of goods is like loading a $billion of gold onto the back of this being driven by this person past these upstanding individuals. To continue RL examples. hisec ganking ingame is like getting caught mugging someone by the police, and using in cash in the victims wallet to pay for your legal expenses |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11834
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 12:53:00 -
[124] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:
An alternative statement for your first sentence is that the hauler chooses to risk more.
Only if they chose to not use any of the tools and tactics that would protect them. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11834
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 12:54:00 -
[125] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:Astroniomix wrote: It's kinda like how since I don't run red lights, there is no risk to running red lights.
Did I get that right?
If we are going to use RL examples; Flying an untanked, cargo expanded hauler stuffed full of goods is like loading a $billion of gold onto the back of this being driven by this person past these upstanding individuals. To continue RL examples. hisec ganking ingame is like getting caught mugging someone by the police, and using in cash in the victims wallet to pay for your legal expenses
No its exactly the same as you just quoted. We wait for the flatbed to wander up with a driver not paying any attention and take their goods in a hail of RPGs. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 12:57:00 -
[126] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:
An alternative statement for your first sentence is that the hauler chooses to risk more.
Only if they chose to not use any of the tools and tactics that would protect them. While i dont disagree that there are many tools and tactics available to aid in an activity like hauling, there are more tools and tactics available to the ganker, and said gankers have more and better starting information to enable them to make more informed decisions. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 12:58:00 -
[127] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:Astroniomix wrote: It's kinda like how since I don't run red lights, there is no risk to running red lights.
Did I get that right?
If we are going to use RL examples; Flying an untanked, cargo expanded hauler stuffed full of goods is like loading a $billion of gold onto the back of this being driven by this person past these upstanding individuals. To continue RL examples. hisec ganking ingame is like getting caught mugging someone by the police, and using in cash in the victims wallet to pay for your legal expenses No its exactly the same as you just quoted. We wait for the flatbed to wander up with a driver not paying any attention and take their goods in a hail of RPGs.
This would be true in null sec. But in hisec you are caught by the police.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11834
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Posted - 2014.06.07 13:00:00 -
[128] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:
An alternative statement for your first sentence is that the hauler chooses to risk more.
Only if they chose to not use any of the tools and tactics that would protect them. While i dont disagree that there are many tools and tactics available to aid in an activity like hauling, there are more tools and tactics available to the ganker, and said gankers have more and better starting information to enable them to make more informed decisions.
What tools would those be? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11834
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:01:00 -
[129] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:
This would be true in null sec. But in hisec you are caught by the police.
And punished, every time.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:07:00 -
[130] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:
This would be true in null sec. But in hisec you are caught by the police.
And punished, every time. Only with very very little risk. You know what the fee is beforehand. You have an idea of how much the target is worth.
The kicker is that you can pay these fees with the victim's money. This isnt exactly punishment.
Pullin some moar RL stuffs: This is like making the punishment for bankrobbery a fine, but you are allowed to pay the fine with the bank's money. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6821
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:10:00 -
[131] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: While i dont disagree that there are many tools and tactics available to aid in an activity like hauling, there are more tools and tactics available to the ganker, and said gankers have more and better starting information to enable them to make more informed decisions.
What tools would those be?
Yeah, I'd like to know that too.
What, precisely what tools and tactics do gankers have that haulers and miners don't? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:15:00 -
[132] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:
An alternative statement for your first sentence is that the hauler chooses to risk more.
Only if they chose to not use any of the tools and tactics that would protect them. While i dont disagree that there are many tools and tactics available to aid in an activity like hauling, there are more tools and tactics available to the ganker, and said gankers have more and better starting information to enable them to make more informed decisions. What tools would those be? scanners passive targeters eft show info scouts moar ships penalty documentation
You have an idea of whether or not the gank will be worthwhile before you attempt the gank. The hauler doesn't know whether or not the precautions he is taking are enough until its too late. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:17:00 -
[133] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:baltec1 wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: While i dont disagree that there are many tools and tactics available to aid in an activity like hauling, there are more tools and tactics available to the ganker, and said gankers have more and better starting information to enable them to make more informed decisions.
What tools would those be? Yeah, I'd like to know that too. What, precisely what tools and tactics do gankers have that haulers and miners don't?
From a tactics standpoint, getting to choose the targets Haulers and miners dont get to hand pick their gankers |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6822
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:21:00 -
[134] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: From a tactics standpoint, getting to choose the targets Haulers and miners dont get to hand pick their gankers
No, but they are 100% capable of choosing their haul. They have all the advantage. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:26:00 -
[135] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: From a tactics standpoint, getting to choose the targets Haulers and miners dont get to hand pick their gankers
No, but they are 100% capable of choosing their haul. They have all the advantage.
No. for the hauler: By choosing lower valued goods, they are hit with opportunity cost By choosing a more valuable haul, the are risking getting ganked and taking an actual capital loss.
for the ganker: their net losses are generally limited to opportunity costs |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:28:00 -
[136] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Sigras wrote: The point he is making is that as an industrialist, you can also do the calculation to see whether or not you're gank-profitable.
If you dont do the math, you're an idiot, if you do the math and dont care then you deserve it.
My argument is about the risk taken by the ganking profession. As a ganker, you only take a loss if you make a mistake in your assessment of your target. You pick a target that is too tanking or not worth the isk you spent on your ganking ships. Aggressor has the advantage 99% of the time in EVE. Big friggin' deal. This isn't unique to highsec ganking. The point is to make sure the guy next to you is the aggressee. You don't have to run faster than a bear, you just have to run faster than the guy next to you.
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chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:33:00 -
[137] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:Sigras wrote: The point he is making is that as an industrialist, you can also do the calculation to see whether or not you're gank-profitable.
If you dont do the math, you're an idiot, if you do the math and dont care then you deserve it.
My argument is about the risk taken by the ganking profession. As a ganker, you only take a loss if you make a mistake in your assessment of your target. You pick a target that is too tanking or not worth the isk you spent on your ganking ships. Aggressor has the advantage 99% of the time in EVE. Big friggin' deal. This isn't unique to highsec ganking. The point is to make sure the guy next to you is the aggressee. You don't have to run faster than a bear, you just have to run faster than the guy next to you. We are getting somewhere.
"Aggressor has the advantage 99% of the time in EVE."
^ I would happen to agree. I also agree that this isnt unique to highsec ganking.
What is unique to highsec ganking is that the gankers get to take the role the aggressor 99% of the time. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6822
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:33:00 -
[138] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: No. for the hauler: By choosing lower valued goods, they are hit with opportunity cost By choosing a more valuable haul, the are risking getting ganked and taking an actual capital loss.
for the ganker: their net losses are generally limited to opportunity costs
The haulers have that choice. They are literally the only ones who determine the risk/reward ratio of hauling. Not the gankers.
They have all the advantage in this regard because their choice can, if they choose correctly, almost completely mitigate the options of the potential gankers.
If you fit sensibly and don't over stuff your cargo hold, you will almost never die. If you don't autopilot into the bargain, the chance of dying gets even lower. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6822
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:34:00 -
[139] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: What is unique to highsec ganking is that the gankers get to take the role the aggressor 99% of the time.
When you deliberately make the choice to be a prey animal, that tends to be the effect. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:43:00 -
[140] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: No. for the hauler: By choosing lower valued goods, they are hit with opportunity cost By choosing a more valuable haul, the are risking getting ganked and taking an actual capital loss.
for the ganker: their net losses are generally limited to opportunity costs
The haulers have that choice. They are literally the only ones who determine the risk/reward ratio of hauling. Not the gankers. They have all the advantage in this regard because their choice can, if they choose correctly, almost completely mitigate the options of the potential gankers. If you fit sensibly and don't over stuff your cargo hold, you will almost never die. If you don't autopilot into the bargain, the chance of dying gets even lower. I agree with almost everything you have said in your reply. haulers make risk / reward decisions. And these decisions are not relative to the actual threat posed by gankers, as the haulers path could potential be gank fleet free.
Where is the ganker's risk / reward decision? They have an idea of the ehp of a target they can take, the rough value of said target, they know their penalties in advance, they handpick a target. They have nearly a complete picture of their risks. What if gankers had a few unknowns to deal with as well? such as not knowing the cargo value of their target. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6822
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:47:00 -
[141] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: Where is the ganker's risk / reward decision? They have an idea of the ehp of a target they can take, the rough value of said target, they know their penalties in advance, they handpick a target. They have nearly a complete picture of their risks. What if gankers had a few unknowns to deal with as well? such as not knowing the cargo value of their target.
Now, they have to deal with freighters having fittings. This, combined with potentially boosting, can make the min/max bounds on the tank of a freighter vary wildly, by 50k EHP or more easily.
It also means that pilot skills have much more of an effect on freighter tank than before.
So no, they don't have a complete picture of their risks. Far from it, especially when you consider the loot fairy. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:53:00 -
[142] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: What is unique to highsec ganking is that the gankers get to take the role the aggressor 99% of the time.
When you deliberately make the choice to be a prey animal, that tends to be the effect.
Everyone is a potential prey animal to gankers. In low or null, roles would switch from time to time.
Hisec isnt setup in such a way where gankers are a realistic choice to be prey, so they are able to stay in the role of the aggressor nearly indefinately. As a result, their 'losses' are generally limited to losses via opportunity cost |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6822
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 13:59:00 -
[143] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: Everyone is a potential prey animal to gankers. In low or null, roles would switch from time to time.
I don't think you really understand.
If you choose to fly a freighter, you have chosen to be a pure prey animal. To other people, you exist only to die. To yourself you exist to not be killed.
Quote: Hisec isnt setup in such a way where gankers are a realistic choice to be prey, so they are able to stay in the role of the aggressor nearly indefinately. As a result, their 'losses' are generally limited to losses via opportunity cost
Being neg ten means that anyone can shoot you, at any time. Shooting people out of the blue means that you have to deal with killrights.
And if you think they aren't ever prey, you need to talk to this guy. One of his favorite activities is hunting gankers with killrights. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
43
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 14:08:00 -
[144] - Quote
Haven't read all piece, but I saw too much protesters against such proposals chattering about that it's victim who is to blame as she stuffed her untanked t1 indie with stuff worh of billions and autopiloted it to destination. Well, this convinient worldview now became pretty much obsolete - I heard too much stories recently about people who lost their manuall pilotedtanked indies, having paltry ~200m worth loot in cargo. What next? We have to pilot ships with cargo worth of 50m manually next year, then it will be the time to take it seriously? It became too easy to pool and risk/effort/profit magnified by ease of multiply account creation and permission to use automation toos are too favorable to SG. I've never heard any SG whining about how hard his life is and how much efforts it takes from him to keep it moving. All of them refere to this activity as some fun and very profitable kind of farming. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (only for corpmembers): link |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 14:09:00 -
[145] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: Where is the ganker's risk / reward decision? They have an idea of the ehp of a target they can take, the rough value of said target, they know their penalties in advance, they handpick a target. They have nearly a complete picture of their risks. What if gankers had a few unknowns to deal with as well? such as not knowing the cargo value of their target.
Now, they have to deal with freighters having fittings. This, combined with potentially boosting, can make the min/max bounds on the tank of a freighter vary wildly, by 50k EHP or more easily. It also means that pilot skills have much more of an effect on freighter tank than before. So no, they don't have a complete picture of their risks. Far from it, especially when you consider the loot fairy.
gankers can scan for the modules their target has equipped to get an idea of the ehp and/or have additional pilots on standby. They arent really taking a giant risk here because they are still able to make an informed decision. They could come equipped with enough dps to take out a boosted freighter, even alpha it if they wanted to. They can calculate the max total hp a freighter could have. You can always add more dps, you cant just keep adding more ehp.
lol loot fairy. Your group knows the ship to be ganked and when the gank is going to happen. again, the gankers have the info and the control. Why should they be able to have all this knowledge? What if they didnt know the value of the cargo and actually had to commit to taking a risk? what is so bad about that? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6822
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 14:17:00 -
[146] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: gankers can scan for the modules their target has equipped to get an idea of the ehp and/or have additional pilots on standby.
That actually is the solution some of us have adopted. Just use enough dps to apply to the maximum potential situation given their fittings.
This however means that we have had to raise the minimum cargo value we can accept for a gank. And it notably increases the risk of getting hosed by the loot fairy.
Quote:
They arent really taking a giant risk here because they are still able to make an informed decision.
Just like haulers. If you haul correctly, there is nearly zero risk. In fact if you haul correctly, you have less risk than a suicide ganker, because the loot fairy can't screw you over.
Quote: They could come equipped with enough dps to take out a boosted freighter, even alpha it if they wanted to. They can calculate the max total hp a freighter could have. You can always add more dps, you cant just keep adding more ehp.
You do realize that you are allowed to die in highsec, right? I don't give two ****s how expensive your pretty little ship was, no one person should be immune to the concentrated efforts of more than a dozen other players, and it sounds like you are suggesting you should be.
Quote:Why should they be able to have all this knowledge?
Because we work for it. It's the same kind of advantage you would have, if you weren't so effort averse.
Quote: What if they didnt know the value of the cargo and actually had to commit to taking a risk? what is so bad about that?
It would almost completely eliminate ganking and highsec piracy as a profession. Those things existing are something CCP supports and promotes as an aspect of the game.
So, I'll ask you a question.
What are you willing to give up in exchange for basically removing profitable ganking? I suggest that CONCORD stops existing at all. Why don't we let the players police one another as they see fit? What is so bad about that? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
133
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 14:26:00 -
[147] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:chaosgrimm wrote: Everyone is a potential prey animal to gankers. In low or null, roles would switch from time to time.
I don't think you really understand. If you choose to fly a freighter, you have chosen to be a pure prey animal. To other people, you exist only to die. To yourself you exist to not be killed. I dont think we are on the same page. My argument isnt that haulers take too much risk, it's is that gankers dont take enough.
Quote: Hisec isnt setup in such a way where gankers are a realistic choice to be prey, so they are able to stay in the role of the aggressor nearly indefinately. As a result, their 'losses' are generally limited to losses via opportunity cost
Being neg ten means that anyone can shoot you, at any time. Shooting people out of the blue means that you have to deal with killrights.
And if you think they aren't ever prey, you need to talk to this guy. One of his favorite activities is hunting gankers with killrights. [/quote]
So the ganking fleet is risking cheap ABCs and / or Destroyers, the value of which is split up across several ships. While freighters should risk a bil in the hull alone, before taking cargo into consideration? Ganker risk is very very low. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6823
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 14:32:00 -
[148] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: I dont think we are on the same page. My argument isnt that haulers take too much risk, it's is that gankers dont take enough.
And I think that you're incorrectly discounting the risks that they do take, and incorrectly minimizing the responsibility the "victim" bears in abdicating his own self defense.
Quote:
So the ganking fleet is risking cheap ABCs and / or Destroyers, the value of which is split up across several ships. While freighters should risk a bil in the hull alone, before taking cargo into consideration? Ganker risk is very very low.
Did you actually read that guy's killboard? He has literally dozens of kills in the last 3 months of gankers who were attacked by him because they had killrights on them, costing them a ship for no gain.
They have plenty of risk. You just think that because it's not exactly the same kind of risk that a hauler has to deal with that it doesn't exist.
Yes, freighters should risk a billion plus, and their cargo. Because that's what they choose to risk. Their choices can and should have consequences. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1629
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 14:32:00 -
[149] - Quote
Axe Coldon wrote: The people that want to gank would whine and cry and complain..but the game would be better off and more new players would stay in the game.
wont somebody think of the CHILDREN!!!
hahahaha EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11835
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 14:34:00 -
[150] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote: scanners passive targeters eft show info scouts moar ships penalty documentation
You have an idea of whether or not the gank will be worthwhile before you attempt the gank. The hauler doesn't know whether or not the precautions he is taking are enough until its too late.
He can see exactly how much his cargo is worth and exactly how much tank he has before he even undocks. How exactly are we at an advantage here? We need the hauler pilot to make all the mistakes.
Your seriously saying that we need to be nerfed because the hauler is making terrible choices? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
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