Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
282
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 21:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Some of you may be disappointed to hear this, but this isn't erotic fanfiction.
What this is is a discussion about the possibilities for the future Minmatar-Caldari hybrid race. As this was the intended spot for the Mordu's Legion ships before the lore pointed CCP to making them Cal-Gal, it only makes sense CCP will return to try to fill this gap.
The Caldari side of this relationship has been done well in both the Guristas and Mordu's Legion faction ships, so we'll focus on the Minmatar side as our primary influence. This will also work well with the lore bit I'll get into later.
So what are things you think of when you think Minmatar ships? You probably think of speedy ships, powerful webs, good tracking and high alpha.
Well, Angel Ships (as well as Mordu's) already have speedy ships covered and both Serpentis and Blood Raiders get web bonuses. Tracking bonuses have been done before and are easily improved further by modules, so that's really not a significant feature to build upon.
That leaves us with alpha. Alpha is possibly the biggest contribution Minmatar ships provide to the overall meta of New Eden, whether its Thrashers and Tornados ganking in highsec, Muninns decimating in medium gangs, or Alpha and Omega fleets destroying capitals every cycle.
Lucky for us, Alpha also works well with Caldari, as Cormorants, Eagles, and Rohks run pretty solid alpha as well.
Now, how do we work Alpha into the ships design? Taking advantage of the pirate hull role bonus, we increase the raw damage on the ship by a significant amount, and increase the cycle time to bring the dps back down to reasonable levels. Balanced properly the ship should have slightly lower dps than a comparable Minmatar ship, but at twice the alpha.
Now for racial bonuses. Primary Caldari bonuses are shield resistance, missile and ecm bonus. Additionally, most turret based ships have a racial optimal range bonus. To maximize the effectiveness of the alpha, this optimal bonus seems ideal, especially while Guristas already share in the Caldari resistance bonus.
The Minmatar bonus makes most sense to be a tracking bonus to maximize the effective use of the ships weapon systems (primarily artillery over autocannons)
On the Lore side of things, Thukker Tribe is the obvious choice, holding Sov in the Great Wildlands, which is currently a desolate region due to few stations and very little reason to set up shop. It's possible that making the Thukker Tribe actually have their own rats, and own ships (even combat sites and data sites) would put them on par with the 5 primary pirate factions in terms of accessible content, as well as driving player activities in the region. In the long run this could lead to a new line of deadspace mods covering gaps in deadspace coverage, to later be couple with the Intaki Syndicate faction and DED sites.
With the focus being on Minmatar in the mechanics, the fact the Thukker Tribe has little connection to the Caldari has minimal consequence, but at the current point in their history, the Thukker Tribe has a lot of ways that this could be worked into their story.
TL;DR: Thukker Tribe ships.
Role Bonus: 140% Bonus to Projectile Turret Damage 50% Penalty to Projectile Turret Rate of Fire (Combined this makes 20% bonus to dps)
Minmatar Bonus: 10% Projectile Turret tracking bonus per level
Caldari Bonus: 10% Projectile optimal range bonus per level
On a battleship with 8 turrets, this would be slightly below a Maelstroms dps, and above a Tempests.
Obviously these would be adjusted to be balanced for the ship size, but these would be the base attributes.
When I get a chance I'll put more info together to compare this to other ships more directly as well as adapt it for others suggestions that will likely arise. Maybe even put together a mock up of ship stats.
GÇ£Die tryingGÇ¥ is the proudest human thing. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 21:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Do we really need a battleship with such a massive alpha?
Granted these will be 1B ships at best, but still. I dunno. Seems like you're just going to do very naughty things with the metagame. |
Alim Omaristos
Dont Pod Me Bro
29
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 21:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1 because this is something entirely different and would be fresh. |
Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
285
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 21:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Do we really need a battleship with such a massive alpha?
Granted these will be 1B ships at best, but still. I dunno. Seems like you're just going to do very naughty things with the metagame.
If they cost 2x as much as something that does half the alpha, how does that affect your idea?
Also, serious sniper/alpha roles exist in the t1 ships, but have no significant presence in navy or pirate ships As of yet. GÇ£Die tryingGÇ¥ is the proudest human thing. |
Catherine Laartii
State Protectorate Caldari State
201
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 21:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thukker already has a t2 line of ships. There is no reason to give them any faction ships.
|
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
423
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 21:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Do we really need a battleship with such a massive alpha?
Granted these will be 1B ships at best, but still. I dunno. Seems like you're just going to do very naughty things with the metagame. I dunno. With eight T2 1400mm arties, perfect skills, and four damage mods, you are looking at 28,296 alpha with Quake or 27,892 alpha with faction EMP. So just shy of three tornadoes.
Sure they will be great for ganking things but at about 1 billion for the hull alone I think tornadoes will remain the ganker's ship of choice in hisec. As for low/null? Well, billion isk hulls tend to attract attention. |
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
173
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 21:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
No.. the Minm + Cal ships should be missile boats.. What I'd like to see is the web range of the Bhaal, and a damage application bonus.. but NO Damage bonus.. Or if it does, be like a NM where is does more Damage, less launchers.
Mach is enough of an instant Apha boat, we don't need more than that. Want more Alpha, use missiles and risk firewalls. |
Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
285
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 22:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Thukker already has a t2 line of ships. There is no reason to give them any faction ships.
They also own part of nullsec, which makes them better than any other lore possibility. They aren't a member of an empire like normal t2 manufacturers either.
While I'm open to suggestions on the lore front (as its not my forte) they certainly make the most sense. GÇ£Die tryingGÇ¥ is the proudest human thing. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 22:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Just retcon the T2 line of ships to be thukker and problem solved. Nobody cares about the lore of T2 ship lines anyway, methinks.
OP, I was silly to question the alpha thing considering the existence of tornadoes and maelstroms, +1 to your idea. It's unique enough and the game could use a few more projectile platforms. |
Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
285
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 22:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sniper Smith wrote:No.. the Minm + Cal ships should be missile boats.. What I'd like to see is the web range of the Bhaal, and a damage application bonus.. but NO Damage bonus.. Or if it does, be like a NM where is does more Damage, less launchers.
Mach is enough of an instant Apha boat, we don't need more than that. Want more Alpha, use missiles and risk firewalls.
So you want one bonus shared by minnie recons, blood raiders and the loki (with serpentis having a similar bonus)?
Like a missile boat that can web as far as it can Point? Sounds only slightly different than the Mordu ships to me. GÇ£Die tryingGÇ¥ is the proudest human thing. |
|
Sigras
Conglomo
778
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 22:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
I just got visions of 10-20 of the cruiser variants flying around at 100KM popping things in one volley.
As an alternative, how about focusing on the fact that both races have damage select-ability so they could get 99% reduction in reload speed, a damage bonus to all missile damage types and 100% accurate ship scanners.
This would make for the most beastly RHML and RLML ships ever. |
Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
285
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 22:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sigras wrote:I just got visions of 10-20 of the cruiser variants flying around at 100KM popping things in one volley.
As an alternative, how about focusing on the fact that both races have damage select-ability so they could get 99% reduction in reload speed, a damage bonus to all missile damage types and 100% accurate ship scanners.
This would make for the most beastly RHML and RLML ships ever.
The Rapid Launcher Reload bonus (maybe 50%) could be an interesting Role Bonus to focus on, but I don't understand the ship scanner bonus. GÇ£Die tryingGÇ¥ is the proudest human thing. |
Sigras
Conglomo
778
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 23:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
well the ship scanner will tell you how they're fit and with a 0 second reload you can instantly switch to the best damage type to shoot them with.
Just playing off the damage selection angle. |
Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
286
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 00:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
...hmm...I get what you're saying, but it certainly seems odd. I dont think anybody would want to ship scan in combat. GÇ£Die tryingGÇ¥ is the proudest human thing. |
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Senex Legio
214
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 00:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
I like where you're going with this. I support the idea of making them missile boats, for the reasons pointed out by Sniper Smith above, plus as a further (even if slight) "drawback" to them being the new meta: missile ships are not generally considered to be the best PvP hulls for reasons most folks know.
Maybe give a bonus for Caldari to flight time, and a bonus for Minmatar on TP optimal?
Role bonus would be a flat (10%?) bonus to Kinetic and Explosive missiles. "I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!" |
Cyran Reinhard
hashtag WARDEC
18
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 00:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:I like where you're going with this. I support the idea of making them missile boats, for the reasons pointed out by Sniper Smith above, plus as a further (even if slight) "drawback" to them being the new meta: missile ships are not generally considered to be the best PvP hulls for reasons most folks know.
Maybe give a bonus for Caldari to flight time, and a bonus for Minmatar on TP optimal?
Role bonus would be a flat (10%?) bonus to Kinetic and Explosive missiles.
Those bonuses seem rather lackluster. With SOE and Mordu they really went for something unique.
|
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Senex Legio
214
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 01:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cyran Reinhard wrote:Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:I like where you're going with this. I support the idea of making them missile boats, for the reasons pointed out by Sniper Smith above, plus as a further (even if slight) "drawback" to them being the new meta: missile ships are not generally considered to be the best PvP hulls for reasons most folks know.
Maybe give a bonus for Caldari to flight time, and a bonus for Minmatar on TP optimal?
Role bonus would be a flat (10%?) bonus to Kinetic and Explosive missiles. Those bonuses seem rather lackluster. With SOE and Mordu they really went for something unique.
Just tossing ideas into the mix, and trying to avoid mimicking the Mordu's Legion ships. "I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!" |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1320
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 01:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Didnt look at the responses, but has seriously no one pointed out the "10% bonus to projectil optimal per level"? Even with artillery, isnt falloff generally MUCH better than optimal? |
BiggestT
Serenity. CORP. Northern Associates.
78
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 01:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Didnt look at the responses, but has seriously no one pointed out the "10% bonus to projectil optimal per level"? Even with artillery, isnt falloff generally MUCH better than optimal?
Nah optimal bonus is better for artillery.
As far as the OP is concerned, I think the alpha bonus is too dangerous. I prefer the RLML or RHLM idea, it is unique and interesting. |
Cyran Reinhard
hashtag WARDEC
18
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 02:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Didnt look at the responses, but has seriously no one pointed out the "10% bonus to projectile optimal per level"? Even with artillery, isnt falloff generally MUCH better than optimal?
I think part of the point was that Caldari turret ships get an optimal bonus, and the skill is the Caldari skill.
Also, Optimal is ALWAYS better as Falloff is a curve of damage being lost, while optimal extends the range of a MAX damage shot. |
|
viverxia
Didn'twantthatscimianyway Northern Associates.
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 03:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
To bring a frigate into line with the R H/L ML idea..
tool up the ship, 3 H, 2 Launchers.
Give it a roll bonus that when the Rockets are mounted it changes how they operate. IE On Rockets Lowers capacity by X% Increases Reload time by Y% Increases rate of fire by Z%
You are effectively making a low ammo, Rapid Rocket Launcher. This RRL platform would make for a horrific alpha, making it perfect for solo frigate work or in blobs, but against a target that could resist its withering volley it would have a much harder time.
Balancing factors could include the amount of grid and CPU (therefore limiting the use of BCU's) and config (to limit its rigs)
--- Just flipping into the pile. |
Voxbot
Touzo Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 03:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
How about for a Thukker Mix be something different like OH dmg and rate of fire since they are know for the lightning fast strikes
so bonues could be for say a cruiser with 5 gun high slots:
Minmatar cruiser: 10% rate of fire
Caldari cruiser: 5% increased OH bonus
Role bonus: 50% reduced damage to mods while over heating
something different that could be nice for making quick hard strikes and getting out would be nice for guerrilla style warfare. |
Cyran Reinhard
hashtag WARDEC
18
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 04:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
viverxia wrote:To bring a frigate into line with the R H/L ML idea..
tool up the ship, 3 H, 2 Launchers.
Give it a roll bonus that when the Rockets are mounted it changes how they operate. IE On Rockets Lowers capacity by X% Increases Reload time by Y% Increases rate of fire by Z%
You are effectively making a low ammo, Rapid Rocket Launcher. This RRL platform would make for a horrific alpha, making it perfect for solo frigate work or in blobs, but against a target that could resist its withering volley it would have a much harder time.
Balancing factors could include the amount of grid and CPU (therefore limiting the use of BCU's) and config (to limit its rigs)
--- Just flipping into the pile.
Just so you know, Alpha is the amount of damage done in a SINGLE volley. What you mean here is Large amounts of Front Loaded DPS.
|
Catherine Laartii
State Protectorate Caldari State
206
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 04:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:Thukker already has a t2 line of ships. There is no reason to give them any faction ships.
They also own part of nullsec, which makes them better than any other lore possibility. They aren't a member of an empire like normal t2 manufacturers either. While I'm open to suggestions on the lore front (as its not my forte) they certainly make the most sense. The issue is more them being a separate faction than any of the empires; they're sort of the minmatar equivilant of the Khanid Kingdom, except they just *happen* to reside in nullsec.
If you wanted me to pick one, I'd recommend ammatar, although they'd have to be amarr/minmatar rather than minmatar/caldari. Similar LP costs to SoE in hisec would be nice, and it would draw more people to ammatar space which would be an excellent way of revitalizing the market. That being said, Syndicate ships would be more practical, but god knows we have enough gallente hybrid faction tech. |
Cyran Reinhard
hashtag WARDEC
18
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 05:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Kristalll wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:Thukker already has a t2 line of ships. There is no reason to give them any faction ships.
They also own part of nullsec, which makes them better than any other lore possibility. They aren't a member of an empire like normal t2 manufacturers either. While I'm open to suggestions on the lore front (as its not my forte) they certainly make the most sense. The issue is more them being a separate faction than any of the empires; they're sort of the minmatar equivilant of the Khanid Kingdom, except they just *happen* to reside in nullsec. If you wanted me to pick one, I'd recommend ammatar, although they'd have to be amarr/minmatar rather than minmatar/caldari. Similar LP costs to SoE in hisec would be nice, and it would draw more people to ammatar space which would be an excellent way of revitalizing the market. That being said, Syndicate ships would be more practical, but god knows we have enough gallente hybrid faction tech.
There are only two real options for Minnie/Caldari, and that's Thukker, and SoCT |
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
136
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 08:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
confirming OP doesn't have any idea why bonus to missiles on mordus ships makes sense |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
274
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 09:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
Can we finally seriously discuss alpha missiles? LP store weapon cost rebalance |
Laventhros Ormus
Insanely Twisted D3vil's Childr3n
12
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 09:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:
On the Lore side of things, Thukker Tribe is the obvious choice...
I agree with this, especially since the Thukker tribe helped the Elders in the retaking of the Starkmanir. The people to give them the insorum was, well, Otro Garushi, Caldari hero.
So this makes so much sense. |
Laventhros Ormus
Insanely Twisted D3vil's Childr3n
12
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 09:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cyran Reinhard wrote:
There are only two real options for Minnie/Caldari, and that's Thukker, and SoCT
SoCT isn't really viable lore wise. Considering they have a Jovian origin. |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
274
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 10:28:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jovians themselves don't have to be involved. Maybe make them rogue-drone based? They shoot explosive missiles and can be either shield or armour tanked.
Rogue drones are a viable alternative and since we are talking about independant colonies of AI with a lore-established history of *sometimes* positive interaction with the human races it's not an extreme stretch of the imagination to see them being a possibility here.
Let's just take a totally random factor here
Altoo - Rogue Drone Destroyer (pirate destroyer) 7 high, 4 mids, 3 lows: 7 missile slots slower than average speed Equal shield/armour hp, lower than average structure hp.
now give them their piratey gimmick
10% shield boost bonus/level - minmatar (based on various minny hulls like vagabond/mael etc etc) 5% heat reduction/level - caldari (based on cambion because why not)
work it a little. LP store weapon cost rebalance |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |