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Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
19
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:03:00 -
[31] - Quote
AFAIK, the only goal of learning implants are to be an ISK sink, and because of this sink, they might never be removed from the game :)
I don't think the problem is pvp, pve, +1 +2 or even +5 when we deal about learning implants. I don't care losing a set of +4 implants if I need to PVE, i'll just buy the 2 I need if I'm short of money.
No, the "real" problem is the same as we had with learning skills : they are just items that allow people to learn skills easier, but they add nothing in the game in terms of game play like hardwiring or pirate implants. Oh well, they do something, they give people more SP/hours, nothing exciting but useful, i admit it.
But the way the game is, we have to plug learning implants with at least +3 if we don't want to be penalized compared to friends / other players. .
This is the reason why they could/should be removed.
But if we remove them, should we simply add "+5" to all stat (non remapable), or nothing ?
I'd say, we should add nothing if we remove the implants, or 3-4 at most. Why ? That's simple : I don't think that half of the eve population even use +5 implants... most people use +4 or even +3 when they tend to be podded too much :p |
Torsnk
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
25
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:14:00 -
[32] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:People who PVP more often than you High sec hider use +3s instead, if at all. They are cheap and still offer good training bonuses and don't deter people from PVPing, who actually want to PVP. For all the others we have Jump clones, which you can change every 20 hours (the respective skill at IV). That allows you to PVP in a adequate PVP clone, then jump to your better learning clone, and come back next evening for another 4 hours of PVP at the exact same time. Rinse and repeat. Henceforth, I don't see any problems with learning implants.
-1
Going from +5's to +3's results in the loss of 3 skill points per minute. That's 3,600 skill points in a 20 hour clone jump period. This equates to 1 hour and 20 minutes of skill training lost for every jump clone activation (assuming that you could have been training at 45 skill points/min in your +5 clone). That's also assuming that you hit the "JUMP" button exactly at 20 hours and no more (which is unlikely). In many instances you may have to wait a few more hours to line up with your IRL schedule which eats more into your training time.
The player is given a few choices:
1. Fly PvP with +5 implants. In null, with the effect of bubbles, this means many times if you lose your ship you are also going to lose your pod. If you are flying a subcapital ship (which most players do) this is really not worth it. (i.e. if you lose an interceptor worth 55 mil you are also likely to lose 200 mil or more worth of implants which don't help you in combat). This is a very odd tradeoff that doesn't incentivize PvP (or any sort of in-game activity really).
2. Choose to lose 1 hour and 20 minutes of character advancement to play the game and undock (assuming going from +5's down to +3's [it's worse if they don't use implants]). Why punish players' character advancement for actually engaging in the game?
I understand that risk vs. reward is an important aspect of the game (as is choice). However, I don't feel that this choice set really enhances the game in any meaningful way.
I remember learning skills. They forced players to make a choice as well. However, that choice was lame and didn't add anything. I feel that learning implants are in the same bucket. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
555
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:22:00 -
[33] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: sure, let's keep a system that actively discourages people from generating content. i don't really care, to be honest.
when it comes to new players learning implants look like this; "get sp slowly" or "don't pvp". neither of those are interesting choices to new players, or older players.
I cannot say that my 4 +3s discourage me from PVPing. I sure get angry and frustrated about my own mistakes when I lose my pod, but they don't discourage me from PVPing. What discourages me from PVPing is the sickening attitude of certain players, who in my opinion don't deserve any content.
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NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
857
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
Personally I found +5s not worth it as I need to use them for a year, and not be podded the whole time to make back the cost (price relative to when I did it, no longer applicable in some regions)
But I do have high grade implants (and stupidly ripped out instead of jc, because I wasnt thinking)(Live, learn, repeat) now So it is worth it to me at the prices
But yes op I agree, learning implants should be folded into the base case Given that they are an obvious yes, a significant to all people use them, and you can clearly be called diminutive to your intellectual capability names for not using them They need serious looking
Also because there are plenty of other implants that would be fun, but are too situational to reliably compete with the learners |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
555
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 13:31:00 -
[35] - Quote
Torsnk wrote:The player is given a few choices:
1. Fly PvP with +5 implants. In null, with the effect of bubbles, this means many times if you lose your ship you are also going to lose your pod. If you are flying a subcapital ship (which most players do) this is really not worth it. (i.e. if you lose an interceptor worth 55 mil you are also likely to lose 200 mil or more worth of implants which don't help you in combat). This is a very odd tradeoff that doesn't incentivize PvP (or any sort of in-game activity really).
2. Choose to lose 1 hour and 20 minutes of character advancement to play the game and undock (assuming going from +5's down to +3's [it's worse if they don't use implants]). Why punish players' character advancement for actually engaging in the game?
I understand that risk vs. reward is an important aspect of the game (as is choice). However, I don't feel that this choice set really enhances the game in any meaningful way.
I remember learning skills. They forced players to make a choice as well. However, that choice was lame and didn't add anything. I feel that learning implants are in the same bucket.
That is your choice. I have never wanted to train faster than with the +3, that is absolutely sufficient training time. I certainly have a clone with +4s, which I use only when I am away from EVE for a prolonged time and cannot do anything anyways. For the rest of the time, I do not see any point at all in using +5s. If people do use them and then don't want to play PVP, it is their personal fault, not the game's, because they made a poor choice.
No advancement is punished, you just need to tone down your expectations. +3 implant speed is absolutely acceptable training speed with a minimum requirement in effort and ISK investment, the same happened back then in the Learning Skill days: Most people never trained the skills beyond 3, because it is absolutely enough. People also need to remember the EVE motto #1: Only fly what you can afford to lose. |
Gaijin Lanis
Surely You're Joking
46
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Ray Kyonhe wrote:Difference between +4 and +5 imps is totally neglectable. If someone's perfectionism hold him from PvP activities, why we should change the game? because it creates content and learning implants are one of the dumbest things in eve. the concept of implants is great, but when it's a choice between "sp or doing something" most people pick SP because skills already take long enough to train without foregoing implants in the same way everyone spent ages training learning skills before they could train anything so that they were able to play the game.
The reason learning skills were bad is because they were a barrier to entry to a barrier to entry. The way things are set now, implants are less of a barrier to entry and more of a means by which to spend ISK to reduce learning times and gain other bonuses.
Dave Stark wrote:slightly slower? i'm looking at a x1 skill, rank V. the difference between them based on my remap is over a day's training. that's on a x1 skill. We're talking about the difference between +5 and +4/+3. Not +5 and no implants. 1.5-3 additional skill points a minute is pretty damned close to "slightly slower." Not to mention it takes 62.5 days of training for +4 implants to pay off the SP invested in their requirements versus +3. 292.7 days for +5 versus +4. But, thankfully, learning implants aren't the only implants. It's to the point they're basically gravy on top of the benefits granted by hardwires and Tech 2 implants.
To say, training cybernetics 5 JUST for learning implants is pretty dumb, yo. So, basically, the OP is whining about the game being less playable as a result of his own failures to properly understand the game. In which case, nerf stupidity! Down with stupidity! Stupidity is ruining the game! The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all. |
De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2122
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Posted - 2014.06.09 14:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
tl;dr: Mags is right (as usual). If you're not undocking because of your implants, you wouldn't have undocked without them.
FWIW, I always fly with a set of +3's in my head (except for Cha - Cha sucks, never learn Cha). I have a straightup max learning clone that is locked in a station in highsec, but the only time I ever use it is if I'm going to be gone from the game for more than a couple of days due to work or family stuff.
The only character that I have ever sprung for +5s for is the one I am currently training to fly supers.
Typically, my hardwirings are worth a lot more than the learning implants, so the cost of them is meh.
I see the learning implants as an investment in my character's development. But if they hinder my ability to have fun in a game I am paying for, what's the point? So I make the call on a level of risk that is acceptable to me, and I go out and have fun. GÇ£SandboxGÇ¥ does not mean that you will succeed at anything you attempt; it means you can attempt anything you want to succeed at. One of the largest obstacles in the way of your success is other players. |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
48
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Posted - 2014.06.09 14:14:00 -
[38] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: because it creates content and learning implants are one of the dumbest things in eve. the concept of implants is great, but when it's a choice between "sp or doing something" most people pick SP
This is mindset similar too "If I haven't perfected this ship I won't undock it and will whine on forums instead about how harsh Eve to newcomers and how long you have to wait to pilot the ship you want". I say it again: such perfectionism won't do you good, get rid of it. As someone above already said, difference between +4 and +5 barely equal to 5 days. FIVE. DAYS. In Eve it's simply nothing. You train some skill 90-180 days, and still can't wait additional 5? I can't see a problem here. And there is a clonjump here, so in fact you won't lose even those 5 days as you will be out of your learning clone for not so long.
Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
539
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 14:19:00 -
[39] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:Dave Stark wrote: because it creates content and learning implants are one of the dumbest things in eve. the concept of implants is great, but when it's a choice between "sp or doing something" most people pick SP
This is mindset similar to "If I haven't perfected this ship I won't undock it and will whine on forums instead about how harsh Eve to newcomers and how long you have to wait to pilot the ship you want". I say it again: such perfectionism won't do you any good, get rid of it. As someone above already said, difference between +4 and +5 for some V lv skill barely equals to 5 days. FIVE. DAYS. In Eve it's simply nothing. You train some skill 90-180 days, and still can't wait additional 5? I can't see a problem here. And there is a clonjump here, so in fact you won't lose even those 5 days as you will be out of your learning clone for not so long.
I just realized that the OP's post states he logs in once a week roughly...so this means by using +3's instead he'd only have to wait one actual login longer to use whichever level V skill is training. This is a complete false economy in terms of wanting the extra few SP above actually doing something. No skill that little bit earlier is worth hamstringing your gameplay for... |
Torsnk
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
25
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Posted - 2014.06.09 14:39:00 -
[40] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:tl;dr: Mags is right (as usual). If you're not undocking because of your implants, you wouldn't have undocked without them.
Your statement is false. I log in, clone jump (to a +4 clone as opposed to the +5) THEN undock.
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Conrad Makbure
Division One Security
72
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 14:47:00 -
[41] - Quote
Hell yes, but keep the mechanic. Have 10 hard wire slots, and roll the learning specs into the hardwire, like +1 to all attributes on top of the existing hard wire specs. Have it cap at +5 total. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6914
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 14:50:00 -
[42] - Quote
Other people have said this, but the implants are not the problem here.
An attitude adjustment is required. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Gaijin Lanis
Surely You're Joking
64
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 14:55:00 -
[43] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Other people have said this, but the implants are not the problem here.
An attitude adjustment is required. Attitude adjustments require level 5 logic though. That takes practically 4EVA to train. The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
541
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 15:10:00 -
[44] - Quote
Torsnk wrote:De'Veldrin wrote:tl;dr: Mags is right (as usual). If you're not undocking because of your implants, you wouldn't have undocked without them. Your statement is false. I log in, clone jump (to a +4 clone as opposed to the +5) THEN undock.
Surely this just shows that the jump clone functionality works as designed? You made a choice based upon risk to jump into a lower values clone and have lower benefits from it, then jump back to the more expensive clone when that risk has passed? In all cases the functionality is working correctly here...
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Torsnk
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
26
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Posted - 2014.06.09 16:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Torsnk wrote:De'Veldrin wrote:tl;dr: Mags is right (as usual). If you're not undocking because of your implants, you wouldn't have undocked without them. Your statement is false. I log in, clone jump (to a +4 clone as opposed to the +5) THEN undock. Surely this just shows that the jump clone functionality works as designed? You made a choice based upon risk to jump into a lower values clone and have lower benefits from it, then jump back to the more expensive clone when that risk has passed? In all cases the functionality is working correctly here...
The "functionality" of jump cloning to a less expensive clone works just fine (which is not the purpose of this post to debate). However, this "functionality" doesn't add any enjoyment to the game.
Question:
1. How does it improve your gaming experience to have folks remain docked in order to protect their +5 learning implants? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
543
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 16:35:00 -
[46] - Quote
Torsnk wrote: Question:
1. How does it improve your gaming experience to have folks remain docked in order to protect their +5 learning implants?
As an Industrialist focused player it gives me better access to ice, ore and market opportunities. Feel free to remain docked and gain the extra 1200 SP per day if that is your primary goal, mine is to get out and get stuff done in the universe so I'm happy with my +3's. Those extra 1200 SP per day aren't earning you any isk whilst you stay docked so I would return a question of 'What's the point?'. Compromise and use +4's and whilst it takes a little longer to gain the next skill grab yourself some more isk and/or fun. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2221
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 16:38:00 -
[47] - Quote
[blink] OH LOOK, IT'S THIS THREAD AGAIN! [/blink]
Is the search function really that hard for you halfwits to use? |
Dave Stark
6258
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 17:11:00 -
[48] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:No skill that little bit earlier is worth hamstringing your gameplay for...
that would be a valid point; if pvp were the only activity in eve. at the end of the day, character progression is important and people want to advance their characters. if you can do that best by going "i'll ignore 1 activity in eve, because i can still do the myriad of others" it's hardly surprising that people would rather have the SP than pvp.
people whine about the risk averse, and people who don't pvp being people "they don't want in eve" yet when ideas like this come up to encourage people to join in on the fun... people whine and shoot it down, i don't really get that. |
Marsha Mallow
993
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 17:35:00 -
[49] - Quote
Solhild wrote:Learning implants, attribute remapping, clone costs could all do with being looked at. When risk/reward stops people from casually engaging with the game then we have a problem. This.
I can see the couterarguments, and yes some of it is about attitude and making meaningful choices. Part of that is that older players are used to the system and have accepted it, but it's still flawed. It's true you can PVP in implants or without, and sensible players will find workarounds. Still, why should non-combat characters acquire more SP than others? Even my own alts irritate me at times (and crap, I just noticed Marsha has no imps in at all and probably hasn't for months, fml, argh).
I really disagree with the principle of penalising players via clone costs or implants for pvping. Older players are more likely to have +5s and are probably heavily invested in their characters, but once you hit level 5 skills it's a system of diminishing returns anyway. It seems like we are being doubly penalised at times. Also a lot of rookies rush to get implants early on and they find it a deterent to pvping as well if they haven't figured out how to get clones without grinding the standings.
In null if you're doing a lot of subcap fleet stuff involving bubbles it does get expensive. Dictor and command ship pilots in particular have problems with implants and clones, and again, it seems unfair that particular playstyles suffer more than others. It's a different scenario in other areas of space, or for cap pilots, which just doesn't make sense. TO THE RIPARDMOBILE! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
548
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 17:39:00 -
[50] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:No skill that little bit earlier is worth hamstringing your gameplay for... that would be a valid point; if pvp were the only activity in eve. at the end of the day, character progression is important and people want to advance their characters. if you can do that best by going "i'll ignore 1 activity in eve, because i can still do the myriad of others" it's hardly surprising that people would rather have the SP than pvp. people whine about the risk averse, and people who don't pvp being people "they don't want in eve" yet when ideas like this come up to encourage people to join in on the fun... people whine and shoot it down, i don't really get that.
I stand by my point, I perform every activity in eve other than the nullsec and WH ones so far. Not once has 'only' having +3 implants stopped me from performing any activity. I may have waited a little longer but that's it, and yes that covers the whole range of science skills for refining, mining, invention, manufacture along with plenty of combat skills.
I am not a PvP player so much (in terms of combat) but would always argue for retaining the implants as they do in my opinion require a meaningful choice. Faster learning or less ISKat risk, it really is that simple. |
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Dave Stark
6260
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Posted - 2014.06.09 17:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Faster learning or less ISKat risk, it really is that simple. in the context of pvp that's not a meaningful choice because all you're getting is more isk at risk.
hardwirings are meaningful choice; more isk at risk in order so that you're being better at something.
learning implants, on the other hand... you're either putting more isk at risk for no reward in your situation, or you're hamstringing your character as a whole by lowering your rate of character progression. that's not meaningful, that's just picking how you want to be penalised. it's like being asked if you'd rather be stabbed or shot. you don't really want either of them.
The unfortunate truth is that for most people; not bothering with 1 of eve's many activities is the lesser of the two evils. that's an issue when that one activity people would rather give up is the one that's at the core of the game.
when a choice is between two negatives, i'd find i hard to call that "good" or "meaningful" or "interesting". |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
548
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 17:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:...stuff...
learning implants, on the other hand... you're either putting more isk at risk for no reward in your situation...more stuff....
You are putting more isk at risk to have increased SP rate whilst going about other business whether it is PvP or PvE focussed.
So more isk at risk to have better SP rate...risk and reward. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
533
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 17:57:00 -
[53] - Quote
Torsnk wrote:1. How does it improve your gaming experience to have folks remain docked in order to protect their +5 learning implants? If they are self-defined 'combat pilots' (ROFL) and remain docked, there are less risk-averse chickens flying around.
This improves my gaming experience, because risk-averse chickens rarely give good fights. Actually, they mostly run away, thus wasting my time.
So: Risk-averse pilots that remain docked improve my gaming experience because they don't waste my time.
Also: not undocking to train skills that you'll never use because you never undock is... mind blowing. |
Gaijin Lanis
Surely You're Joking
65
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 18:15:00 -
[54] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:that would be a valid point; if pvp were the only activity in eve.
Uh... it kinda is. The only way out of PVP is to live in an empty system, only buy NPC seeded goods, fill only NPC buy orders, mine your own minerals, build your own ships/mods...
Unless you mean "Player versus player" is only referencing the act of shooting at another ship piloted by another player. In which case, no. The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all. |
Dave Stark
6260
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 18:58:00 -
[55] - Quote
Gaijin Lanis wrote:Uh... it kinda is. yeah it kinda is if we exclude everything that isn't. just like berlin is kinda the only city in europe once we exclude all the ones that aren't berlin. |
Gaijin Lanis
Surely You're Joking
67
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Posted - 2014.06.09 22:30:00 -
[56] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gaijin Lanis wrote:Uh... it kinda is. yeah it kinda is if we exclude everything that isn't. just like berlin is kinda the only city in europe once we exclude all the ones that aren't berlin. Not really the same argument at all. As literally every aspect of EVE requires a sort of zero-sum interaction with another player unless you take vast and completely masochistic efforts to avoid interacting with other players.
Sure, some people don't quite grasp this concept, so its fine if its a bit over your head. The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all. |
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope Gallente Federation
1517
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 22:40:00 -
[57] - Quote
Gaijin Lanis wrote:As literally every aspect of EVE requires a sort of zero-sum interaction with another player I'd argue that the interaction isn't as zero-sum as it appears from a goods standpoint. Often a ship lost wins or loses reputation, and that can go further than the ship ever could. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Dave Stark
6275
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 06:20:00 -
[58] - Quote
Gaijin Lanis wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Gaijin Lanis wrote:Uh... it kinda is. yeah it kinda is if we exclude everything that isn't. just like berlin is kinda the only city in europe once we exclude all the ones that aren't berlin. Not really the same argument at all. As literally every aspect of EVE requires a sort of zero-sum interaction with another player unless you take vast and completely masochistic efforts to avoid interacting with other players. Sure, some people don't quite grasp this concept, so its fine if its a bit over your head.
well yes it is the same argument.
eve is only about pvp when you remove all of the non pvp activities. |
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope Gallente Federation
1518
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 06:36:00 -
[59] - Quote
I'd have to go between you two and say that EVE is a PVP game overall though you can do PVE in it--but that happens around other players and they can influence your PVE. On the other hand, Europe isn't a Berlin continent so I think you're both off the mark. You both make good points but you're taking an extreme stance when the reality is in between. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |
Gaijin Lanis
Surely You're Joking
71
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Posted - 2014.06.11 22:26:00 -
[60] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:well yes it is the same argument.
eve is only about pvp when you remove all of the non pvp activities.
Which leaves only running missions, ratting, and running ded sites for bounties to buy NPC blueprints so you can mine in a permanently empty system (which doesn't exist) for the mats to manufacturer said blueprints so you can make better ships to kill rats and run missions and ded sites quicker. About 95% of the features and ideas in the game aren't useful for killing rats and I'm not even mentioning the amount of time it would take to generate enough money from NPC sources to buy a cruiser blueprint. Not to mention it would be game over if you lost any of the ships given to you buy tutorial missions.
Who the hell would do that to themselves? I'm not even trying to argue from a "fun" standpoint. The would just be the most soul crushing and masochistic endeavor possible. Grinding for months so you could grind for months so you could grind for months.
Hell, most the crap being sold by PVE corporations are simply ISK sinks to counter the money that can be made from shooting NPCs. With the latter being incredibly insignificant, and the former being pretty huge.
Ya know, just to revive a semi-dead thread on a beaten to death subject just because I like typing. The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all. |
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