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Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
478
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is a continuation from a topic that wont be named. It had some valid points disguised as a rant, still the ISD decided to close it down.
The general theme was: 0.0 has become too safe. Actually getting into a fight has become difficult due to a number of factors. This is a symptom, IMO, of multiple underlying changes to Eve and have resulted in the trivialisation of certain elements of the game (inlcuding, but not limited to: Sovereignty, permanence of Player Structures and accessibility of Nullsec)
Here are some changes that where pointed out that may have combined in unexpected ways to create the current climate:
- Warp to 0
- Jump Freighters
- Interdiction immunities
- Cyno-Jammers
Brief Expansions:
Warp to 0 - Moving large ships has become very quick. The 15km 'Slow-Boat' was killer for a BC+ ships without an MWD. The removal of gate-to-gate-bookmarks (or 'instas' as some people called them) was deployed at the same time. I understand the logic: "People already have circumvented the 15km rule. Why not just make it automatic?". The reality was that it was a minority of people who used these Bookmarks. There has been a wide-scale impact on multiple ship classes due to this.
Jump Freighters - Put simply, they trivialise the logistics of 0.0 alliances. Empire buying and selling prices now apply to people living 50 jumps from Jita. No need to control or move through a 'Pipe' to move goods (e.g. no need to actually think about controlling choke points or escorting industrial ships). This video highlights exactly why Jump freighters have killed an entire part of the Meta-Game and devalued Eve as a whole. Station/POS Spamming is very much a non-issue with a few JF characters doing weekly runs (this equates to 2/3 hours of work per-week-per-JF to supply multiple structures).
Interdiction immunities - I don't like immunities. It seems like a solution to a problem or a gimmic, neither of which explain why such a pointless mechanic has been added. BTW I fly 'ceptors more than any other ship across all my past and present accounts.
Cyno-Jammers - This makes offensive battles much harder. Before jammers, A lot of alliances would try to kill Supers/Titans while they where 'In the Cooker' - this is nigh on impossible by comparison currently. You can choose to unjam a system long enough to bring in Capital support as a defender and a sub-capital fleet wont be able to interrupt the Cyno-Jammers functionality without a full coalition Vs coalition battle that will last hours (if the defenders chose to do so). Long story short it makes if difficult for alliances to surgically kill and reinforce structures with massive firepower and force a decisive defensive action. Subsequently capital fights escalate quickly when they occur, but occur infrequently. The number of Supers that are currently in the game and the relative safety in which they can be built is only escalating the "Nuclear Deterrent" situation that has emerged.
Please feel free to add more points and say what you think is detrimental to an active fight-culture.
I'll summarise my own thoughts: There is very little incentive to fight on a small scale. This lets people chose their fights more carefully. Eve, the ultimate game of "how to lose everything in 3 easy steps", has become too safe and there is very little reason to actually undock and fight unless you want to. KB efficiency % means people prefer not to undock in most cases. They have nothing to lose by staying docked (literally).
The greatest and most vaunted battles in Eve (which CCP love talking about across the internet) have been caused by a small scale skirmish or 1 persons mistake escalating into full on war. I don't think making these opportunities appear more frequently is a bad thing. |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2102
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
In before the Lock. The case of the bottomless dress. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=349499 @SolsUnknownAlt on twitter. I hate it.
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Karen Avioras
Unsung Heroes Spaceship Samurai
845
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
? |
lanyaie
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exit Strategy..
991
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's time once again people, let's grab the bucket. Hai |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
478
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:In before the Lock.
This topic invites discussion and is not a Rant. Discussion of the impact of game mechanics on the Eve universe is soemthing that should be encouraged.
I'll happily have the first part of the OP snipped if it is regarded as inflammatory, however this is not a rant nor is it a troll. It's a combination of observations and a look at the evolution of eve over a decade, asking people to expand on it with their own experience.
I'm sure you know this, I'm just stating it for the record ;) |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
1172
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Just because you have an opinion doesn't make you right. It's just an opinion, and opinions are nothing more than a point of view on something from your experiences, or perceived experiences. Other people have different experiences, so naturally their opinions will differ from yours. Does that mean it's right? No. My point? I have none. Just wanted to sound intellectual this morning.
Oh yeah, and in before the lock... again. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
12033
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
And here I thought a major part of no-fighting is because of all the coalitions...
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Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
679
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
What Chribba says. Nullsec always organized itself into larger and larger groups, finally ending in the current situation. If you don't like that situation, it's perhaps time to look up smaller entities that still fight alot, plenty of those around in various flavors.
Smaller doesn't mean worse, it just means different ways of fighting (and yes if you want to use your capital, you still can, it just comes with a *PL can hotdrop this!* warning) Helping Serpentis civilians -į-įMercenaries for peace: Mordu's Legion |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
478
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Chribba wrote:And here I thought a major part of no-fighting is because of all the coalitions...
Coalitions are a Symptom of the Arms race in 0.0
You need more supers for the Once-every-6-months fights that occur. Coalitions are a pure numbers game. If holding space was more difficult then a single entity would become over-stretched very quickly, allowing them to be counter attacked by another entity.
I just would like more reason for people to fight on a Corp Level outside of high-sec Wars. |
ChromeStriker
0ne Percent. Odin's Call
733
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Posted - 2014.06.09 10:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Warp to 0 was needed not just for 0.0 but generally, It slowed the game down even more than it is (double the travel time on anything more than 5 jumps). Il also say just as many peeps get exploded by jumping to a occupied gate at 0 then if they were to warp at range first and check.
Jump freighters make 0.0 liveable.
Immunities also allow the abillity for ceport to burn through bubbles to catch targets... it works both ways
Without the cyno jammers, he who has most caps win.
No Worries |
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Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
3741
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
There is a difference between non-combatants avoiding combat and combatants having no reason to stay and fight. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5047
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Serious question: Why is any of this a problem?
If you continually change the rules to prevent people building an unassailable Empire, then the joy of creating a nation where you can impose your will on others fades and no one will want to even try. To make it impossible to hold Sov or resupply relatively securely (there is no 100% safety for any ship in EvE) for more than a few weeks completely undermines any interest in holding it in the first place.
"A naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
We intercept a lot of Freighters that voluntarily don't warp to 0 |
Arec Bardwin
1428
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
OP forgot KB efficiency. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5260
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
I see nothing new here - all of your points have been made in the past in other threads.
What we need are solutions or suggestions, or possibly more cat pics.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
478
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jandice Ymladris wrote:What Chribba says. Nullsec always organized itself into larger and larger groups, finally ending in the current situation. If you don't like that situation, it's perhaps time to look up smaller entities that still fight alot, plenty of those around in various flavors.
Smaller doesn't mean worse, it just means different ways of fighting (and yes if you want to use your capital, you still can, it just comes with a *PL can hotdrop this!* warning)
I hate capital warfare :) I want to see them on the field more often so they can die in a fire. The old "BS shouldn't be endgame" statement is no longer true. Now Supers are the realistic Endgame... just 20+billion more expensive. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5050
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: Now Supers are the realistic Endgame... just 20+billion more expensive.
There is no Endgame in EvE, that's probably where you are confused "A naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
478
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:There is a difference between non-combatants avoiding combat and combatants having no reason to stay and fight.
I agree. |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
478
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
Arec Bardwin wrote:OP forgot KB efficiency.
Nope, i didn't :) |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
1833
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
"Nononono, we will discuss this, for my opinion on this topic is unique and important."
If you feel eve null is too safe, go shooting your neighbours, all of them, see how long it lasts. "CAKE CANNOT HOLD UP TO BEING A CHARACTER DAMNIT."
Unsuccessful At Everything |
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Arec Bardwin
1428
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Arec Bardwin wrote:OP forgot KB efficiency. Nope, i didn't :) You kinda did. One sentence buried in a wall of text.
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Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
478
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:I see nothing new here - all of your points have been made in the past in other threads.
What we need are solutions or suggestions, or possibly more cat pics.
I have plenty of suggestions - but this isn't the forum for that. If these points have been made before but still haven't been acknowledged as "Working as intended" or "We will redesign this" then the forum will continue to serve it's purpose by allowing the players to raise their concerns and discuss the game at large.
Rewind to the Nano-Era and look at how many threads there where about THAT design decision.
Arec Bardwin wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Arec Bardwin wrote:OP forgot KB efficiency. Nope, i didn't :) You kinda did. One sentence buried in a wall of text.
I didn't feel it needed elaborated on. Although turning off kill-reports from API's and the removal of kill-mail generation would probably be easier than touching anything else covered in the OP :S |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5052
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:
I didn't feel it needed elaborated on. Although turning off kill-reports from API's and the removal of kill-mail generation would probably be easier than touching anything else covered in the OP :S
KMs only matter to those who care to pay attention to them. You don't have to go to a KB site ever in your life.
Like that chap who OP'd in the previous thread with this name who said I obviously wasn't good at 1v1s and a coward because Id died 6 times. "A naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares "If someone doesn't appreciate your presence, make them appreciate your absence." - Anon. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1521
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: still the ISD decided to close it down. And you decided to reopen it. Which as you probably are fully aware of, is against the rules.
25. Re-opening locked topics is prohibited.
Recreating or re-opening a thread that has been closed by a moderator is prohibited. Threads that have been closed by a moderator have been closed for the benefit of the community. Re-opening a locked thread will result in its removal.
Thread locked. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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