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Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
340
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Posted - 2014.06.11 12:04:00 -
[31] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Diana Kim wrote:There are still too many gallentean occupants present on the Caldari Prime. I don't think we could just tell them to go without spilling their blood. And they must pay for what the Federation did with our planet.
Gallentean occupants on our territories should be named outlaws and should be dealt with accordingly, swiftly and without mercy.
How one can talk about peace, while security and integrity of our territories are being compromised?! From your other thread: Diana Kim wrote:I don't do vengeance, Lieutenant Kernher, because vengeance is not professional.
...
I don't even want to take them into the State, I don't want to absorb them like you, or kill them. What I want, is to dismantle their criminal regime, their government. Sounds like vengeance to me. Which is it? Do you want to just dismantle their government, or do you want to butcher the population? Pick one.
Neither of which are an acceptable course of action.
Public Channel:-á Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel: -áGallente Lounge OOC Channel: -áWNWN2 |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1601
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Posted - 2014.06.11 12:08:00 -
[32] - Quote
I outlined my thoughts regarding the Ishukone - Material Acquisitions deal for Arcurio elsewhere, however I think it bears mentioning here again.
The policies of Ishukone and the Federal Senate regarding Caldari Prime mark the beginning of a potential re-normalization of relations between the Caldari State and the Gallente Federation. Any lasting peace upon which any future peace accords will be signed will always require the establishment of interwoven political, economic, and commercial interests between both State and Federation in order to further prevent outbreak hostilities. That negotiations have begun, matured, and reached fruition between Ishukone and the Federation as regards Caldari Prime in general and Arcurio in particular displays that the creation of such an interwoven fabric of peace between the State and Federation lies not in the realm of impossibility but in actual reality.
A reality in which it is Caldari that may potentially control the destiny of the Homeworld through diplomacy and dialogue should always be seen as preferable by those that hold true to ideal that violence and force of arms should only ever be the last resort in order to preserve human life and dignity. Ishukone is Caldari, and it is through their actions and that of Chief Executive Reppola that the only powerful symbol of those who know only hatred and intolerance, such as the Templis Dragonaurs, such as the U.D.I, such as the CPD, such as Tibus Heth and all those that think like him is removed. Their claims to patriotism and the greater good of the State revealed as the lies said by charlatans when the Homeworld is no longer a memory of a painful past to be used by the petty provocateur but rather a vision of a future of peace and prosperity the people of the State can realize.
This may only be the first act towards peace, but I can still only hope it ends in the denouement of a lasting and final one between State and Federation. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1122
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Posted - 2014.06.11 12:12:00 -
[33] - Quote
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Diana Kim wrote:There are still too many gallentean occupants present on the Caldari Prime. I don't think we could just tell them to go without spilling their blood. And they must pay for what the Federation did with our planet.
Gallentean occupants on our territories should be named outlaws and should be dealt with accordingly, swiftly and without mercy.
How one can talk about peace, while security and integrity of our territories are being compromised?! From your other thread: Diana Kim wrote:I don't do vengeance, Lieutenant Kernher, because vengeance is not professional.
...
I don't even want to take them into the State, I don't want to absorb them like you, or kill them. What I want, is to dismantle their criminal regime, their government. Sounds like vengeance to me. Which is it? Do you want to just dismantle their government, or do you want to butcher the population? Pick one. Neither of which are an acceptable course of action. Dismantling of gallentean government is not just acceptable, it is required action.
Gallentean government is composed of criminals, who staged "Operation Highlander". By assuming their position in gallentean hierarchy, they evade justice, but for their action they must be put before the tribunal. In order to achieve it, the whole system that supports their crimes must be dismantled. |
Indira Harashani
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
45
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Posted - 2014.06.11 13:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Dismantling of gallentean government is not just acceptable, it is required action.
Gallentean government is composed of criminals, who staged "Operation Highlander". By assuming their position in gallentean hierarchy, they evade justice, but for their action they must be put before the tribunal. In order to achieve it, the whole system that supports their crimes must be dismantled. This notion that the Federation's Operation Highlander was a criminal act, and that those who authorized it are criminals, is laughable.
I am no lover of the Federation, but the initial invasion of Luminaire back in YC 110 was a criminal act perpetrated on the back of another cowardly and criminal act - the Elder Fleet's attack on the headquarters of CONCORD. Yes, it is your homeworld, but it was located within Federation territory. It was still located in Federation territory even after the invasion, even if it can be reasonably claimed that the planet itself was a de facto island of State sovereignty. (A state that it appears to be peacefully shifting towards right now, without bloodshed or violence - a good thing.)
Operation Highlander was, in a way, the Federation's emulation of the Empress' glorious return to Her people. An invading foe was met on the battlefield with overwhelming force, and purged from their sovereign space with wrath and fury that splintered hulls like trees snapping in the wind.
But the State's claim to Caldari Prime still does not make Operation Highlander a criminal act. Luminaire itself, as a system always remained under Federation sovereignty after the events of YC 110, which gives them the right to move materiel in and out of the system whenever and wherever they want. This includes the movement of a significant number of capital ships into the system, and the decision to place them in an engagement with State forces left over from the invasion five years prior.
They did not need to ask your permission to do that, just as Her Grace did not need to ask the Elder Fleet's permission to smear it across space with Her fury.
I would not expect the Republic Fleet to ask permission to open fire on us were we sat in orbit over one of their worlds, nor for the Caldari Navy to do the same with the Federation Navy. Neither should you. |
Anslo
Scope Works
5425
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Posted - 2014.06.11 13:57:00 -
[35] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Diana Kim wrote:There are still too many gallentean occupants present on the Caldari Prime. I don't think we could just tell them to go without spilling their blood. And they must pay for what the Federation did with our planet.
Gallentean occupants on our territories should be named outlaws and should be dealt with accordingly, swiftly and without mercy.
How one can talk about peace, while security and integrity of our territories are being compromised?! From your other thread: Diana Kim wrote:I don't do vengeance, Lieutenant Kernher, because vengeance is not professional.
...
I don't even want to take them into the State, I don't want to absorb them like you, or kill them. What I want, is to dismantle their criminal regime, their government. Sounds like vengeance to me. Which is it? Do you want to just dismantle their government, or do you want to butcher the population? Pick one.
That Sami. Always fighting the good fight. Even if she has to dunk enemies with posts.
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Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3786
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 15:24:00 -
[36] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:TomHorn wrote:The Caldari nationalists can concentrate on helping the Intaki nationalists and the ILF in their goal of secession from the Federation and creating their own independent Intaki state. Behold Provist hypocricy. The Federation meddling with internal State affairs? Unacceptable! The State meddling with internal Federation affairs? Perfectly fine.
NOT that I necessarily have a problem with this, but one could say that decrying State efforts to help minority populations find self-determination whilst the Federation reserves the right to do the exact same thing in the Empire is also hypocrisy.
My actual opinion is that people should mind their own business more, though. When in Caldari Prime, do as the Caldari do. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Karynn Denton
Clan Katanga Caravan
192
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 16:50:00 -
[37] - Quote
Indira Harashani wrote:... another cowardly and criminal act - the Elder Fleet's attack on the headquarters of CONCORD.
Cowardly? Criminal?
It was ****ing glorious!
Karynn Denton Caravan Master
Thukking about! In Rifters! On drugs! \o/ |
Richard Masseri
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 19:09:00 -
[38] - Quote
I will happily raise a glass to all meaningful acts that bring the Caldari and Federation closer together. However I sadly have to agree with Mr Vorpalstar it will be a very long time before the Empyrean war even though many of us living in those areas wish this was not the case. Just Another Capsuleer-á |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
4750
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 20:19:00 -
[39] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:NOT that I necessarily have a problem with this, but one could say that decrying State efforts to help minority populations find self-determination whilst the Federation reserves the right to do the exact same thing in the Empire is also hypocrisy. The Intaki people have a very significant difference to the Minmatar. We are not enslaved by the Federation, and joined it - co-founded it, in fact - as a matter of personal choice. The majority of the Intaki ethnicity and the majority of the Intaki system's populace desire to remain with the Federation.
More importantly, as a lot of Provists seem far too stupid to understand, even if the majority of Intaki did desire to leave the Federation, we'd still operate a democratic society that championed the causes of freedom and individualism, and we certainly wouldn't want their control of our interests replaced with the Caldari's. Provists do not desire Intaki freedom, as has been made very, very clear by Heth, the CPD and their capsuleer cheerleaders on the IGS - they desire to exchange vassalage to the Federation for vassalage to them. Mane 614
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Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3788
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Posted - 2014.06.11 20:34:00 -
[40] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:The Intaki people have a very significant difference to the Minmatar. We are not enslaved by the Federation, and joined it - co-founded it, in fact - as a matter of personal choice. The majority of the Intaki ethnicity and the majority of the Intaki system's populace desire to remain with the Federation.
More importantly, as a lot of Provists seem far too stupid to understand, even if the majority of Intaki did desire to leave the Federation, we'd still operate a democratic society that championed the causes of freedom and individualism, and we certainly wouldn't want their control of our interests replaced with the Caldari's. Provists do not desire Intaki freedom, as has been made very, very clear by Heth, the CPD and their capsuleer cheerleaders on the IGS - they desire to exchange vassalage to the Federation for vassalage to them.
Or perhaps nothing more than a trading agreement and mutual defence treaty? The State isn't exactly famous for it's expansionist policies, Andreus. We're also not famous for bullying allies to change their ways to match our own, or we might have had a few things to say on the subject of Slavery. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
4750
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 20:38:00 -
[41] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Or perhaps nothing more than a trading agreement and mutual defence treaty? The State isn't exactly famous for it's expansionist policies, Andreus. We're also not famous for bullying allies to change their ways to match our own, or we might have had a few things to say on the subject of Slavery. I didn't say "the State," Pieter, I said "the Provists." It's well established that anyone who supports Heth does not and cannot support the State. Provists are traitors. Supporters of Heth are traitors. I wasn't accusing anyone you care about of hypocricy. Mane 614
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1122
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 21:21:00 -
[42] - Quote
Indira Harashani wrote: I am no lover of the Federation, but the initial invasion of Luminaire back in YC 110 was a criminal act perpetrated on the back of another cowardly and criminal act - the Elder Fleet's attack on the headquarters of CONCORD. Yes, it is your homeworld, but it was located within Federation territory. It was still located in Federation territory even after the invasion, even if it can be reasonably claimed that the planet itself was a de facto island of State sovereignty. (A state that it appears to be peacefully shifting towards right now, without bloodshed or violence - a good thing.)
Invasion of Luminaire back in YC110 wasn't a criminal act. It was a declaration of war. Indeed, the treaty has been violated, just like Federals violated treaty that they give us our planet back, when they started the operation. But unlike them, our operation was targeted at liberation of our planet from gallentean occupation. We were at war with Federation already when this "operation" happened, and they simply violated rules of the war we have agreed with. This fact itself was obnoxious. But I don't call them criminals for just violating a treaty they signed just 5 years ago. I call them criminals for intention and methods they did it. While we needed just our property and legacy back, and to secure lives and our culture from gallentean unprovoked agression against us all over Caldari Prime, gallenteans in their attack were only trying to kill Caldari citizens and destroy our property.
Indira Harashani wrote: Operation Highlander was, in a way, the Federation's emulation of the Empress' glorious return to Her people. An invading foe was met on the battlefield with overwhelming force, and purged from their sovereign space with wrath and fury that splintered hulls like trees snapping in the wind.
Such comparison is simply laughable. The Empress never gave the world of Mekhios to tribals. She never sanctioned their presence there. She didn't come to just kill peoples on the planet. She came to actually save her peoples there, just like Tibus Heth did in YC110.
Indira Harashani wrote: But the State's claim to Caldari Prime still does not make Operation Highlander a criminal act. Luminaire itself, as a system always remained under Federation sovereignty after the events of YC 110, which gives them the right to move materiel in and out of the system whenever and wherever they want. This includes the movement of a significant number of capital ships into the system, and the decision to place them in an engagement with State forces left over from the invasion five years prior.
And how about moving armed troops inside Caldari Prime and starting fights all over the cities? Was it their "right" as well? Or attacking our ships on orbit of our planet?.. It doesn't sound just like simply "moving".
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Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3789
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 21:52:00 -
[43] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Or perhaps nothing more than a trading agreement and mutual defence treaty? The State isn't exactly famous for it's expansionist policies, Andreus. We're also not famous for bullying allies to change their ways to match our own, or we might have had a few things to say on the subject of Slavery. I didn't say "the State," Pieter, I said "the Provists." It's well established that anyone who supports Heth does not and cannot support the State. Provists are traitors. Supporters of Heth are traitors. I wasn't accusing anyone you care about of hypocricy.
Excellent. Some people DO forget that the Provists have all been swept from power in the State and are a wholly discredited organisatoin. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3789
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 21:53:00 -
[44] - Quote
Indira Harashani wrote: Operation Highlander was, in a way, the Federation's emulation of the Empress' glorious return to Her people. An invading foe was met on the battlefield with overwhelming force, and purged from their sovereign space with wrath and fury that splintered hulls like trees snapping in the wind.
Only if the Empress had burned the Elder Fleet by making a pyre of her own ships would the comparison be at all apt. In truth the space around Caldari Prime was held only by the dead on that day.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
609
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 22:24:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jumping Heth on a Tricycle, there's space zombies orbiting Ca...?! No wait... wait... ... no, this batch won't do at all. Excuse me while I fire a pharmacist. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
199
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 22:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:In truth the space around Caldari Prime was held only by the dead at the end of that day. And by all those other ships the Federation had in Luminaire that the Caldari didn't. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3789
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 22:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:In truth the space around Caldari Prime was held only by the dead at the end of that day. And by all those other ships the Federation had in Luminaire that the Caldari didn't.
I don't count ships that are too afraid to undock, Msr Verrisai. Capsuleers had orbit to ourselves, once the last of those Moros tucked their tails and fled into warp. The few last ones that could, who only escaped because Concord decided to cover their retreat. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
199
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 22:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
I mean, why would they stay? The battle was over and they won with no possibility of the Caldari coming back. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3789
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 22:50:00 -
[49] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:I mean, why would they stay? The battle was over and they won with no possibility of the Caldari coming back.
Well, I know I'm more detail oriented than the average FN Commodore, but I might have stayed to see if any of the hundreds of thousands of casualties could be recovered from the burning wrecks of my fleetmates.
I'm funny like that. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
199
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 23:24:00 -
[50] - Quote
That's not a function Moros are typically equipped for, especially not when under fire from some overzealous capsuleers who are trying to wash down the bitter taste of defeat with some spite-kills. A carrier, maybe, considering those have on occasion been fit for the purpose of retrieving and housing battlefield casualties, but not a dreadnought. |
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Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3789
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 00:01:00 -
[51] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:That's not a function Moros are typically equipped for, especially not when under fire from some overzealous capsuleers who are trying to wash down the bitter taste of defeat with some spite-kills. A carrier, maybe, considering those have on occasion been fit for the purpose of retrieving and housing battlefield casualties, but not a dreadnought.
Well the carriers went down a good hour before the last dreadnaught quit the field. I'd quit trying to dress a pyrrhic victory up as something glorious, if I were you. The only one who won any honour that day was Admiral Yanala. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
199
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 00:43:00 -
[52] - Quote
Costly victory, maybe. I don't think it was particularly pyrrhic, though; there wasn't much of a dispute as to whom controlled the planet and would continue to control it when all was said and done.
I suppose this isn't really the place to debate the finer points of it though. Likewise, your veiled bloodlust over the battle is rather gauche. |
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2014.06.12 01:16:00 -
[53] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:Costly victory, maybe. I don't think it was particularly pyrrhic, though; there wasn't much of a dispute as to whom controlled the planet and would continue to control it when all was said and done.
I suppose this isn't really the place to debate the finer points of it though. Likewise, your thinly-veiled bloodlust over the battle is rather gauche.
It wasn't a phyrric victory, it's a tenuous victory. The Provist-led conquest of Caldari Prime was a textbook blitzkrieg and far as I can see it, Caldari losses are well within acceptable parameters. Acceptable parameters means the losses they suffered doesn't stop them from occupying the planet for the next six years by the time they actually took it.
However, Caldari Prime still remained deep within Gallente space, and if it weren't for the Shigeru sitting in orbit with her doomsday pointed at the segregated Gallentean community centers, the State would had lost orbital control a long time ago and it would be only a matter of attrition before the Gallente Federation retake Caldari Prime. The State's grip over the planet is tenuous at best.
Also, what does that victory accomplish, in practical terms? I never quite figure that one out. Did the State actually gained anything other than a homeworld deep within hostile lines that day? |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3789
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 02:36:00 -
[54] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:Costly victory, maybe. I don't think it was particularly pyrrhic, though; there wasn't much of a dispute as to whom controlled the planet and would continue to control it when all was said and done.
I suppose this isn't really the place to debate the finer points of it though. Likewise, your thinly-veiled bloodlust over the battle is rather gauche.
Oh, I'm sorry. Was it veiled? Let me be clear, on that day and in that place, if I could have climbed out of pod and drunk Gallente blood I wouldn't have thought it too much.
Hopefully I'm a little more balanced now. To be fair, I'm the one who called it a tragedy. You're the one who felt the need to assert victory. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Ayallah
Sniggwaffe WAFFLES.
236
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 03:22:00 -
[55] - Quote
Post removed -áFear The Tribes |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1122
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 03:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Bryen Verrisai wrote:That's not a function Moros are typically equipped for, especially not when under fire from some overzealous capsuleers who are trying to wash down the bitter taste of defeat with some spite-kills. A carrier, maybe, considering those have on occasion been fit for the purpose of retrieving and housing battlefield casualties, but not a dreadnought. Well the carriers went down a good hour before the last dreadnaught quit the field. I'd quit trying to dress a pyrrhic victory up as something glorious, if I were you. The only one who won any honour that day was Admiral Yanala. Not just dreads, gallentean nyx warped away during the battle while recieving heavy damage. |
Kyllsa Siikanen
Gradient
282
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Posted - 2014.06.12 13:22:00 -
[57] - Quote
A battle is a strategic and a tactical concern simultaneously, and success at the one does not mean success at the other. GÇ£Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.GÇ¥-á
GÇò C.S. Lewis-á |
Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
771
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 14:07:00 -
[58] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Oh, I'm sorry. Was it veiled? Let me be clear, on that day and in that place, if I could have climbed out of pod and drunk Gallente blood I wouldn't have thought it too much.
Hopefully I'm a little more balanced now. To be fair, I'm the one who called it a tragedy. You're the one who felt the need to assert victory.
I'd rather think about how balanced one can be in the middle of a CF like this. But I fear you won't convince this youngling about his interpretation of what happened there, even if you'd whip up a fetching set of slides filled with little words and lots of illustrations. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3793
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 15:49:00 -
[59] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:I'd rather think about how balanced one can be in the middle of a CF like this. But I fear you won't convince this youngling about his interpretation of what happened there, even if you'd whip up a fetching set of slides filled with little words and lots of illustrations.
I'd be prouder of myself if I'd been balanced during the battle itself. As it was I think I was bellowing at several points. The techs reported smeared fist marks on the inside of my pod. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
771
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 18:05:00 -
[60] - Quote
You'll get there, eventually. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
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