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Yang Xinhai
Nisaba Syndicate
1
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Posted - 2014.06.11 14:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Although I understand there has already been a post about this, dating back to December 2011, with the recent pirate ship balances and more clearly defined bonuses/roles it may be time to re-think about pirate subsystems.
I agree with the prior post that these should require multiple race skills, however, I think it may also be an opportunity to have a single subsystem able to be fit to multiple T3. For instance, a True Sansha Propulsion Subsystem could be fit to both a Tengu or a Legion and provide the 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity.
On the manufacturing side of things, these could require a component that is only made available through the usual pirate channels i.e. drops/pirate LP store.
Regardless, it would be nice to see some pirate subsystems, maybe not for every slot, but at least to add some flavour in the form of pirate factions trying their own shenanigans with sleeper technology. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6951
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Posted - 2014.06.11 14:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
And if they can make the ship look like the respective pirate ship designs, even better. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Aelisha
Achura-Waschi Exchange Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
398
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Posted - 2014.06.11 14:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
I like the proposal a lot, and I am not just saying that as a tech 3 manufacturer. The proposal is clean, simple and doesn't pretend to have answers as to implementation, but gives people something to debate over.
If these systems affected the skin/aesthetic of the ship they were attached to, with a minor 'piratification' (made up word, I know) for a mere one system, with full on spikes/bloodstains/whatever if you're running a full pirate set up, I'd be extremely happy.
Edit: Kaarous beat me to it. CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange: Adaptable Industry for an Unpredictable Cluster
Intaki Reborn. Independent Capsuleer. |
Sigras
Conglomo
793
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Posted - 2014.06.11 15:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Actually, if it were me I would make a pirate hull that could fit both race's subsystems.
It would be kinda hard to balance, but can you imagine a sansha T3 flying with both caldari and amarr subsystems?
It even makes sense that the pirates would make a ship that can kluge on either races subsystems. |
Ellendras Silver
My second corp
142
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Posted - 2014.06.11 16:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
the last thing we need is a buff on T3 ships, another point is but i am no industrial type it could have great impact on industry people that make subsystems and or T3 hulls for income Carpe noctem |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cult of Mooby
200
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Posted - 2014.06.11 17:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Either Pirate subs, incorporating multiple racial skills, or a Pirate hull that can fit multiple racial subs would be a great addition. I'm not sure how the benefits/drawbacks would work but maybe they could be used to fill some more niche roles of T3s. Like a SoE sub that boosts scanning ability slightly, and speed slightly. Obviously that is a very rough idea, but it shows the kind of lines I am thinking along. (i.e. You could fit a straight velocity sub and be faster, but fitting the exploration sub gives you some of both without the full benefits of either.) In general, +1 for the idea. |
IceAero
Shadow. DARKNESS.
21
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Posted - 2014.06.11 18:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Yang Xinhai wrote:Although I understand there has already been a post about this, dating back to December 2011, with the recent pirate ship balances and more clearly defined bonuses/roles it may be time to re-think about pirate subsystems. I agree with the prior post that these should require multiple race skills, however, I think it may also be an opportunity to have a single subsystem able to be fit to multiple T3. For instance, a True Sansha Propulsion Subsystem could be fit to both a Tengu or a Legion and provide the 20% bonus to Afterburner velocity. On the manufacturing side of things, these could require a component that is only made available through the usual pirate channels i.e. drops/pirate LP store. Regardless, it would be nice to see some pirate subsystems, maybe not for every slot, but at least to add some flavour in the form of pirate factions trying their own shenanigans with sleeper technology.
Hey! Thanks for the kind words! I put a lot of effort into that post and I'm glad to see it still has some support.
I still believe that 'pirate' T3 ships have a future. You will never know just by seeing a 'tengu' what fancy pirate stuff they have fitted unless you look at the ship in space to see the texture change, but even still it could be 1 subsystem or all 5.
I know that many are averse to buffing T3 ships, but my counter to this has always been that each subsystem will probably increase the cost by 30-40m, with very minor buffs. A fully 'pirate' T3 would be more versatile, but not better at everything and almost 200m more expensive. I was specific that every pirate subsystem (except the propulsion) should not simply be 'better' than the regular version. The defense sub is designed to increase the HP, or, in the case of the Tengu/Loki, keep things the same but remove the transport bonus and make the +1 high slot into a +1 mid slot (for a total of +2 mids).
It's been some time, and I think think could be reworked a bit.
I also LOVE the idea of having 1 pirate sub being used by 2 different T3 ships. Except, well, that means the Tengu could fit a true sansha offensive sub and use lasers! I'm just not sure if there is a complete solution using this, but I'll try to think it through!
The complete OTHER option is to have pirate T3 hulls with special bonuses, which use normal T3 subsystems... |
iu'ra
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
4
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Posted - 2014.06.11 19:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
I think it would be interesting to have certain properties of certain factions on a T3 such as the Legion with the Sansha AB, web range, and Nos bonus or a Tengu with the Gurista drone bonus and the Mordu point range bonus |
IceAero
Shadow. DARKNESS.
22
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Posted - 2014.06.11 19:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
An example of pirate hulls (instead of having pirate subsystem at all):
True Sansha Legion HULL 1% bonus to all shield and armor resistances per level 5% bonus to medium energy turret tracking per level +25mbit for drones (50bmit max now)
Or (since Sansha don't really use amarr hulls):
Dark Blood Legion HULL 1% armor resistances per level 5% bonus to medium energy turret damage per level 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range per level (one-half the Curse bonus)
Shadow Serpentis Proteus HULL 2.5% bonus to armor HP per level 5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level +25mbit for drones (125bmit max now)
Dread Guristas Tengu HULL 1% bonus to all shield resistances per level +25mbit for drones (50bmit max now) 100% bonus to Light and Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints
Domination Loki HULL 1% bonus to all shield and armor resistances per level 5% bonus to medium turret rate of fire per level 10% bonus to warp speed and warp acceleration. |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
228
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Posted - 2014.06.11 20:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
I like both the OP's proposal and the other one suggesting a pirate hull that can fit subsystems from the faction's two component races.
I think a similar restriction should be in place for the subsystems: ie SOE subsystems could only be used on a Proteus or Legion and the SOE hull could fit only Amarr, Gallente or SOE subsystems.
Neat idea, probably a pain to balance and likely overpowered but I like it. +1 Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |
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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2014.06.11 20:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
This sounds extremely interesting, I like where its going. Unfortunately I am thinking it will have to wait until long after the T3 rebalance pass. |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cult of Mooby
200
|
Posted - 2014.06.11 21:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
IceAero, I see nothing wrong with a Tengu being able to fit for lasers, so long as they're less bonused the missiles. Tengu's shouldn't be on par with a Legion, but maybe able to perform no better than a mix between Maller/Omen for the damage. If Tengu's could fit for lasers, they would also be constrained by cap so they might be able to surprise an enemy by using lasers but they likely won't be sustainable. If done well, I think that allowing for even more surprises would add content in a good way so long as a Proteus never out performs a Caracal and a Loki never out performs a Thorax, etc... I also like your Pirate T3 hull idea, it would be quite interesting but I think I like the idea of Pirate subs even better. The purpose I would design them for would be to build a Tengu that might be a cross between a typical Tengu and a Worm that is out performed in each respective way by a dedicated ship.
Balance would be the key, if done well either idea would be amazing for adding content and adding another layer of ship differences and customization while preventing T3's from beating out anything else by default. I don't think the cost should be set up to be overly prohibitive, instead you should have an actual need for the pirate sub that justifies the drawbacks in other areas.
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Xindi Kraid
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
786
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Posted - 2014.06.16 19:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
I have long thought pirate subsystems would be great to have. It could lead to a bit more interest by adding to the meta and there's plenty of potential for new stuff there. Proteus with a guristas style drone bay would be neat, it still plays to the same sensibilities of the ship while having a bit of different gameplay there, while the same system on a Tengu adds new gameplay, for instance. It shouldn't be an issue for balance, the design of T3s according to CCPs new plan for meta is that generalists should be able to do more, less effectively than specialists and a T3 rebalance is somewhere in the future to hopefully make that happen. If that happens then pirate systems improve the generalist potential by adding options, and if the balance pass works as advertised, pirate cruisers and T2s should still be more effective.
I don't think we need pirate T3s just yet, though. I'd rather see them add pirate T2s first or more classes of T3 ship. |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
146
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Posted - 2014.06.17 06:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
I've always liked the concept of Pirate Strategic Cruisers. I really like the ideas here. Right now, Pirate ships have passed their rebalance and now it's turn for the T3 cruisers to be rebalanced (making each subsystem useful, each T3 viable in any situation via subsystems, etc). During or after that rebalance pass would be a good moment to introduce these Pirate T3. |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
831
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 08:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
I would love to see Pirate Subsystems or Hulls. However, I wouldn't want them to be buffed versions of T3's. Just alternate options. http://meme-generator.me/media/created/d3r3t8.jpg |
Egravant Alduin
republic fleet battle support
158
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 10:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Actually, if it were me I would make a pirate hull that could fit both race's subsystems.
It would be kinda hard to balance, but can you imagine a sansha T3 flying with both caldari and amarr subsystems?
It even makes sense that the pirates would make a ship that can kluge on either races subsystems.
I like it the idea of the op in general and this idea also more.Maybe it could be balanced if they would require high skills in some areas like marauders need.
Feel the wrath of the GECKO! |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
1126
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 10:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Crafting component: various numbers of player corpses for proper reaver look. Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1407
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 10:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
Omg omg a good idea on the Ideas and discussion forums!! Eve is dying!!! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Bohneik Itohn
Amarrian Salvage Gnomes and Associates
270
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 12:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
I can see this being easily implemented without any power creep by focusing on the pirate faction strengths for new and unique options for T3 configurations. My vote goes for both hull and subsystems, because both ideas offer the opportunity for entirely different levels of customization, and customization is the name of the game when it comes to T3's.
That is, assuming the hull bonuses disappear. T3's don't need anything but the 5% reduction to heat damage the standard hulls currently deliver. The rest of the flavor can come from arranging subsystems and hulls that can equip new combinations of said subsystems. Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya
Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help. |
Khan'Wulf
Delta Corvi Brothers of Tangra
1
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Posted - 2014.06.17 15:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Excellent suggestion. I've been thinking the same, along the lines that pirate subsystems could make up the missing "5th" subsystem for each area.
I don't see a problem with making T3 ships both more versatile and powerful, since their cost is many times that of T2 ships and their pilots risk skill point loss on destruction.
T3 ships shine when blinged-out, but the same is true if applied to other cruisers (especially pirate cruisers).
--Khan'wulf |
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Bohneik Itohn
Amarrian Salvage Gnomes and Associates
303
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Posted - 2014.06.17 15:27:00 -
[21] - Quote
Khan'Wulf wrote:Excellent suggestion. I've been thinking the same, along the lines that pirate subsystems could make up the missing "5th" subsystem for each area.
I don't see a problem with making T3 ships both more versatile and powerful, since their cost is many times that of T2 ships and their pilots risk skill point loss on destruction.
T3 ships shine when blinged-out, but the same is true if applied to other cruisers (especially pirate cruisers).
--Khan'wulf
Agreed, no one said these hulls or subsystems were going to be cheap either, and that's something that's often overlooked in balancing discussions - the isk to performance ratio. Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya
Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help. |
Aakkonen
The Phaeacian Fleet SpaceMonkey's Alliance
53
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Posted - 2014.06.19 14:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
I would use them even if its only cosmetical, but, 1+ from me :D Bad Jokes since -09.... Fly Safe! o7 |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1125
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 14:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:Khan'Wulf wrote:Excellent suggestion. I've been thinking the same, along the lines that pirate subsystems could make up the missing "5th" subsystem for each area.
I don't see a problem with making T3 ships both more versatile and powerful, since their cost is many times that of T2 ships and their pilots risk skill point loss on destruction.
T3 ships shine when blinged-out, but the same is true if applied to other cruisers (especially pirate cruisers).
--Khan'wulf Agreed, no one said these hulls or subsystems were going to be cheap either, and that's something that's often overlooked in balancing discussions - the isk to performance ratio.
It's usually ignored because cost is not a balancing factor. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
673
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 14:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Not quite pirate but I'd love a prot in fed navy camo :D |
Rectile
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2014.06.19 15:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Actually, if it were me I would make a pirate hull that could fit both race's subsystems.
It would be kinda hard to balance, but can you imagine a sansha T3 flying with both caldari and amarr subsystems?
It even makes sense that the pirates would make a ship that can kluge on either races subsystems.
I can see this happening |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
835
|
Posted - 2014.06.21 07:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:Khan'Wulf wrote:Excellent suggestion. I've been thinking the same, along the lines that pirate subsystems could make up the missing "5th" subsystem for each area.
I don't see a problem with making T3 ships both more versatile and powerful, since their cost is many times that of T2 ships and their pilots risk skill point loss on destruction.
T3 ships shine when blinged-out, but the same is true if applied to other cruisers (especially pirate cruisers).
--Khan'wulf Agreed, no one said these hulls or subsystems were going to be cheap either, and that's something that's often overlooked in balancing discussions - the isk to performance ratio. That is because isk is not a constant. When I first started out and I was mining veldspar in an Osprey, (back when it was a mining ship!) 20m isk was a huge amount to me. Now I'm out ratting in null and I make that in minutes. Alliances with moons and/or manufacturing setups and the like make much more.
TL:DR ISK has no set value to any one person, so it is not really suitable as a balancing factor.
Anyway. Thinking about this a bit and it could well be as simple as offering Pirate Offensive Subsystems that can fit into one of the appropriate Hulls in place of the usual ones.
Guristas - Tengu - Similar offensive bonuses to the Gila. Serpentis - Proteus - Similar offensive bonuses to the Vigilant. Angels - Loki - Similar offensive bonuses to the Cynabel, as well as improving the agility and speed just a tad more. Blood Raiders - Legion - Similar offensive bonuses to the Ashimmu, as well as the stasis web bonus. Sansha - Legion - Similar offensive bonuses to the Phantasm, but with additional bonuses to AB velocity.
I would really love to see what aestetic changes could come about, (as well as the paint schemes.) Imagine Tengu's that don't look like a cat fish or Loki's that don't look like a bottle opener had a baby with a medieval torture device! http://meme-generator.me/media/created/d3r3t8.jpg |
Bohneik Itohn
Amarrian Salvage Gnomes and Associates
309
|
Posted - 2014.06.21 13:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
When you were mining Veld in an Osprey 20m isk is supposed to be a huge chunk to you. Ratting in null is intended to make that in a few minutes because you have not only invested a decent amount of time in the game to get the SP to do so but you also invested expensive assets and put them at risk to do so. You don't rat in your Osprey you used to mine in do you?
Eve has it's progression just like any other game, and the open market has done a good job of balancing the cost of ships to their effectiveness at earning isk with a scant few exceptions. Why would a new set of subsystems and hulls be any different?
Isk is not constant, which is why the market experiences inflation and fluctuations in prices. Are null alliances going to find it worth their while to triple the cost of their T3 doctrines for the benefit these subsystems and hulls offer? Not very likely. Blinging out your T3 will always remain something individuals who earn a lot of isk by using that T3 in high reward situations do as a simple means of splurging.
Solo Ratting Tengu's that wander around in Wormholes come to mind as the most prominent example of this. They see an average price range of 1.2 to 1.8 bil in C3's and C4's, because they make a silly amount of isk right up until the moment the pilot stops checking D-scan. Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya
Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help. |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
835
|
Posted - 2014.06.21 20:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
I get that, but the market would decide the price, not CCP, therefore it is not a viable balance criteria.
I believe what you meant was the production value compared to regular T3 stuff. That value is dictated by time, effort and material availability. Not ISK.
But hey, making the production process require various amounts of the resources used in both racial subsystems, or even completed subsystems themselves. http://meme-generator.me/media/created/d3r3t8.jpg |
Bohneik Itohn
Amarrian Salvage Gnomes and Associates
309
|
Posted - 2014.06.21 21:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:I get that, but the market would decide the price, not CCP, therefore it is not a viable balance criteria.
I believe what you meant was the production value compared to regular T3 stuff. That value is dictated by time, effort and material availability. Not ISK.
But hey, making the production process require various amounts of the resources used in both racial subsystems, or even completed subsystems themselves.
Production? Who said anything about production? These are pirate faction, bud. How many pirate faction items get mass produced?
Look at the prices of other faction items. Market seems to be doing well with them, and there are quite a few of them that are punitively expensive and only necessary for E-peen and hilarious killmails. Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya
Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help. |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
835
|
Posted - 2014.06.21 21:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:Hakan MacTrew wrote:I get that, but the market would decide the price, not CCP, therefore it is not a viable balance criteria.
I believe what you meant was the production value compared to regular T3 stuff. That value is dictated by time, effort and material availability. Not ISK.
But hey, making the production process require various amounts of the resources used in both racial subsystems, or even completed subsystems themselves. Production? Who said anything about production? These are pirate faction, bud. How many pirate faction items get mass produced? Look at the prices of other faction items. Market seems to be doing well with them, and there are quite a few of them that are punitively expensive and only necessary for E-peen and hilarious killmails. Feel free to highlight the part where I said the word 'mass'. And last I checked faction ships get built by players from blueprints. Given that Subsystems affect the actual hull of the ship, thus being an integral requirement, I believe they should be given the same treatment as ships in that regard.
No ready to use T3 components are dropped by anything, (except maybe the occasional loot pinata carrier, but they don't count - what with them being owned by players and all.) They are all built by players, with materials aquired by players. I would hope to see some sort of schematic that could be used in conjunction with two suitable relics, plus both races associated gubbins, to reverse engineer a pirate subsystem BPC.
When was the last time you saw an NPC drop T2 gear? (Salvage not withstanding...) But hey, lets just get them to skip that and head right on to T3! If you are suggesting that these 'Pirate T3' subs should be just another drop like a module, then I feel that much of the point of T3's would be lost.
And, if these subs were in fact to be aquired hrough a simple loot drop then you're idea of price being used as a balancing medium is even worse. Players decide prices via supply and demand, not CCP. http://meme-generator.me/media/created/d3r3t8.jpg |
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