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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:40:00 -
[91]
I'm questioning it because it's basically a method of getting free isk. That I don't like in the least.
Max
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Remedial
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:42:00 -
[92]
I deal with more newbies every single day than probably anybody else in Eve with the exception of TBB or the GMs, and I can say that anybody who falls for an investment scam, be they 1 day old or 1000 days old, deserves it. Everything about this game screams, "trust only those you absolutely have to trust", from the escrow scamming, to purposefully mispriced goods market, to corp thievery, to the very articles published in EON about how to scam and defraud billion of ISK out of other Eve residents.
And yet, people continue to get scammed, to lose money to pyramid schemes that anybody with half a brain should notice is very risky right from the get-go. This is because they CHOOSE to believe, to take a risk with their money on the chance that the scheme pays off and makes them richer. There shouldn't be any sympathy here because they knew what they were getting into, and there CERTAINLY shouldn't be any GM intervention on the victim's behalf, or retroactive rule changing.
If I had lost my own shirt, I wouldn't be calling for GM intervention because I'd know it was my fault. The GMs in this game consistancy because they've already developed a reputation for arbitrary behavior that is widely discussed and criticized. Don't extend that behavior to enforcing rules retroactively that seem to be made up on the spot because of how a particular GM feels about something.
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Keta Min
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:44:00 -
[93]
Originally by: MOOstradamus There are no rules - its just made up & changed (usually if someone with high placed friends whines enough) as EVE runs along
/me is surprised some people are even questioning this ..
i agree with moocifer. a sad day for sure
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blacknight9
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:44:00 -
[94]
The DEVS are GODS in this game. They can do whatever they want. So what if they interfered with IPOs scam? That shows a big sign of "BEWARE" to all those who make a scam of this proportion.
The course of actions of the Devs was unpredicted. Nobody excepted them to refund a part of the scammed people. I think when the game becomes unpredictable, it also goes way up in the fun factor. Kinda like saying: watch your back; u must always have eyes open cause u'll never know what u'll come across.
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Alessia Karan
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:44:00 -
[95]
Lets not discuss here weather you agree with it or not, the point of this threat is to find out what the rules of scamming really are. But judging by the lack of response from CCP they don't really know themselfs, and didn't really think this through :(
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Zenn Bu
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:46:00 -
[96]
I'm not generally opposed to the pay-back, but since this is hardly the first IPO scam, will this pay-back policy apply retroactively to all previously scammed characters? Or just the ones who are friends with a gm/dev? Because that's what it's looking like atm tbh...
Selective application of deliberately vague rules breeds distrust, be warned.
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Charae
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:47:00 -
[97]
This has shaken the very foundation of EVE; "Everyone is accountable for his own actions". There's an official statement needed really soon, not so much on this particular incident (as by the rules they can't really tell others what happened to an account) but moreso on the now dodgy and open for interpretation new 'rule' on forum scamming.
The whole idea of EVE is that everything is playerdriven, everything is PVP and that the smart will win from the ignorant. From now every time this is mentioned we will have to add "but not always" to that.
I can understand that people are glad they got their money back however, this is not in the spirit of EVE. I applaud the ones that either didn't petition on purpose or the ones that did but are still undecided wether they were entitled to get their cash back. The ones that did petition, got their cash AND bend/change/make rules to justify this all, to me they are tainted forever.
I can only envision DS whining and reasoning with a GM trying to get his cash back, things like "but we had no way of telling or inspecting if it was a scam!" or the REALLY nice "it was done through the forums, thus it's protected" excuse. People like DS clearly understand what EVE is about and this is a clear case of "Do as I say, not as I do".
Bah
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Remedial
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:47:00 -
[98]
Originally by: blacknight9 The DEVS are GODS in this game. They can do whatever they want. So what if they interfered with IPOs scam? That shows a big sign of "BEWARE" to all those who make a scam of this proportion.
The course of actions of the Devs was unpredicted. Nobody excepted them to refund a part of the scammed people. I think when the game becomes unpredictable, it also goes way up in the fun factor. Kinda like saying: watch your back; u must always have eyes open cause u'll never know what u'll come across.
Yeah Star Wars Galaxies was so fun when the devs would randomly do anything they wanted.
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Jon Draconus
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:50:00 -
[99]
"Let the buyer beware."
I think this sums things up quite nicely. If you Choose to place your trust in something, then get ripped off, well...perhaps you will be less trusting and more careful in who you trust with your ISK.
I don't agree with scamming, mainly because it isn't something I see myself doing, but scamming was something that happened and always will. It doesn't matter if the forums are involed or not IMHO, because its was an in game matter that was discussed in a game forum. No refund should have occured. This isn't real life.
And speaking of refunds....how abouts looking at my petition for my last ship CCP?
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blacknight9
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:52:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Remedial
Originally by: blacknight9 The DEVS are GODS in this game. They can do whatever they want. So what if they interfered with IPOs scam? That shows a big sign of "BEWARE" to all those who make a scam of this proportion.
The course of actions of the Devs was unpredicted. Nobody excepted them to refund a part of the scammed people. I think when the game becomes unpredictable, it also goes way up in the fun factor. Kinda like saying: watch your back; u must always have eyes open cause u'll never know what u'll come across.
Yeah Star Wars Galaxies was so fun when the devs would randomly do anything they wanted.
I don't understand. It is an ironic statement? I didn't play Star Wars Galaxies. So in the end was fun or not?
Just like in TV as long as u watch and like it, u don't switch the channel. The moment i'll stop enjoying Eve, i'll stop playing it. Simple as that.
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Wizardpete Draconis
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:53:00 -
[101]
signs Joshua's letter for a reponse on the difference between this and other scams.
On the other hand, I would point out that having a better system for trading/issuing of shares would make for quite an interesting addition to the entire gameplay experience.
Having been involved in a couple of major IPOs in the past, the way a good IPO is structured or a public listing for that matter can be copied in-game as well with not too many difficulties. This through setting up clear structures with the shareholders where the financing structure is known for all to see, past financial performance of a corp that has public shares is automatically generated in game and available for all to see, investments and other major cash disbursements are only allowed after prior approval of Board of Management, Supervisory Board or General Meeting of Shareholders, etc. This could make for quite a unique addition to the already excellent market EVE has and enhance the overall experience of the game. ___________________________________ Wizardpete Draconis Warlords Inc. CFO |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:55:00 -
[102]
Originally by: blacknight9
Originally by: Remedial
Originally by: blacknight9 The DEVS are GODS in this game. They can do whatever they want. So what if they interfered with IPOs scam? That shows a big sign of "BEWARE" to all those who make a scam of this proportion.
The course of actions of the Devs was unpredicted. Nobody excepted them to refund a part of the scammed people. I think when the game becomes unpredictable, it also goes way up in the fun factor. Kinda like saying: watch your back; u must always have eyes open cause u'll never know what u'll come across.
Yeah Star Wars Galaxies was so fun when the devs would randomly do anything they wanted.
I don't understand. It is an ironic statement? I didn't play Star Wars Galaxies. So in the end was fun or not?
Just like in TV as long as u watch and like it, u don't switch the channel. The moment i'll stop enjoying Eve, i'll stop playing it. Simple as that.
Look at the SWG line
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Zenn Bu
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:57:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Charae The whole idea of EVE is that everything is playerdriven, everything is PVP and that the smart will win from the ignorant. From now every time this is mentioned we will have to add "but not always" to that.
QFT
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Uther Doull
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:58:00 -
[104]
for ccp to step in here there could be 3 reasons: 1. they changed their policy on scamming without telling us 2. ccp caved in to the whining of the victims 3. this particular scam crossed the line somehow
i sincerly hope number 1 or 2 are not the case... it would make me lose a lot of confidence in ccp to be honest.
if number 3 is the reason, i'm also curious to know if the scammers recieved a warning or (temp)ban. and if so, which line was crossed and why? because i can forsee a major whinage (and justly so) if a lot of ppl now risk being banned for a scam they thought 'legit'
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Zenn Bu
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:09:00 -
[105]
This is a fairly big deal in my eyes. And I, for one, would really like an official response to it. What exactly is the definition of an 'unfair' scam...
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Samurai Saija
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:10:00 -
[106]
I will clarify it for you and hopefully for some others too.
IPO in Sell orders forum
Sell order forum rules
Quote:
5. Posting scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.*
Quote: *Clarification: Scams involving characters transfers and ETC's are not allowed and will have repercussions in game. Other scams MAY have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion.
You are not allowed to use Sell order forums to scam. You are not even allowed to use it to sell item you dont plan to sell or even have. Would Janette had used in game chats to do this scam it would have been just fine.
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Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:13:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Max Teranous on 14/06/2006 10:13:19
Samuari,
Those rules were changed AFTER this scam took place ! Beforehand, they stated that there would be no IN-GAME repercussions for scams involving the forum.
Max
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spurious signal
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:15:00 -
[108]
The longer this goes on without an official explanation from CCP the worse this looks.
Someone from CCP needs to post in this thread or make a gold sticky pretty fast or else the conspiracy theories are going to multiply, the lack of trust that now exists is going to get worse and the evaporation of respect that's happening is going to leave CCP high & dry IMO.
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Maggot
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:17:00 -
[109]
This really does need an official statement but having been victim to previous inconsistences in GM responses I would we suprised if we get anything meaningful. Thats not a flame btw, I appreciate how hard it must be to moderate a hugely complex and evolving game with limited resources.
However for me this is the darkest day in Eve history. But hell I'll get over it. Going to the pub tonight instead of playing eve I think.
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Gunstar Zero
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:21:00 -
[110]
Conjecture:
This decision was presumably made by a GM, who to the letter of the rules given to him/her felt he *may* intervene. Sounds like he made the wrong decision to me.
Perhaps one of the more senior game designers is looking into it & will post a response when they have the full information and have made a decision on what they want to do.
Would be hard to reverse any of the decisions made (I presume)so far, but clarifying policy for the future would be cool.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:23:00 -
[111]
Think this deserves a explanation indeed. why was this case so different. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
blacknight9
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:24:00 -
[112]
Sorry for the offtopic but from the graph that HippoKing showed me it is clear that Runescape is blowing everyone. And why isn't this graph showing the numbers in WOW subscriptions?
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Samurai Saija
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:25:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Max Teranous Edited by: Max Teranous on 14/06/2006 10:13:19
Samuari,
Those rules were changed AFTER this scam took place ! Beforehand, they stated that there would be no IN-GAME repercussions for scams involving the forum.
No, it's been like that long before
Here is one and thats quite old one since it doesn't say anything about GTC or character sales. Older rules from eve-search cache
Just different rule number
Quote: 10. Scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.
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spurious signal
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:28:00 -
[114]
Originally by: blacknight9 Sorry for the offtopic but from the graph that HippoKing showed me it is clear that Runescape is blowing everyone. And why isn't this graph showing the numbers in WOW subscriptions?
Runescape's line did that when they went free - a lot of those numbers are extra accounts created by existing players when it went free. WoW is on a seperate graph shine it's numbers are so huge that they dwarf all the others and make their lines impossible to see.
You can see on the graph when wow kicked off though, all the other lines (except EVE) suddenly start going down).
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Uther Doull
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:36:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Gunstar Zero This decision was presumably made by a GM, who to the letter of the rules given to him/her felt he *may* intervene. Sounds like he made the wrong decision to me.
apparently that line was added to the rules after this intervention, and the fact that it is up to GM discretion is also a point of debate.
what i mean is GMs play the game, they have friends, and a scam covering a large section of eve will be more likely to involve a GM player character or a friend. Then with GMs being human and all there is a probability that this will influence his decision in some way. Meaning that a scam that affects many ppl would have more chance of GM intervention than a small one, wich is ofcourse principally flawed.
i for one think that if ccp will continue this policy of handling these kind of scams on a case by case basis instead of just allowing them (wich would be a preferable and a lot safer stance), they should leave the final decision to a Dev or at least the most senior GM, in the hope that they can take a more objective view of the case
this is not to flame or accuse GMs in any way, just pointing out that GMs, like all humans, are flawed :)
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Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:38:00 -
[116]
I'm wondering what the gm's new guidelines are for whether they get involved or not. Amount of isk involved? Number of players scammed? Number of whining posts on the forums? Other?
Max
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:39:00 -
[117]
that rule refers to auctions or sales that have no intention on delivering on what they promise to sell.
IPO's promise to sell you shares. They do not promise that those shares will guarantee a profit to the buyer.
In the past only forum auctions for non-existent items or items tied to real cash value were moderated ingame by GM's. Now this has been extended for the first time to sales and auctions that actually *do* deliver but simply don't make good on expectations raised with the buyer.
The example case may be clear-cut, but it's the very fact that very similiar cases are possible were there's alot mroe uncertainty to it that makes this new stance impossible to maintain.
An example. I do exactly what happened in this scam. Only difference: I don't cut and run right away, making my intentions known. But I actually go through the motions of trying a bit for forms' sake and cut and run after two weeks instead, protesting that I simply tried and failed, or that my RL situation has changed. And that I have decided to leave the character behind and get a new one because i've been unfairly accused of scamming, ruining the ingame reputation of my character.
Then what ?
Old blog |
Avon
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:43:00 -
[118]
This is a very bad turn of events. If this sets a precedent then Eve may well just have lost a very important part of itself.
Oh, and what Rod says too.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Major Tarsis
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:45:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Major Tarsis on 14/06/2006 10:51:44 Edited by: Major Tarsis on 14/06/2006 10:51:10 I take it that the shares were actually handed out?
Reimbursements could be in order if the Shares were not actually handed out, however if they were then the investors all got the goods they were expecting and the seller was offering to sell. If these shares then suddenly went worthless or not the sale was true and valid in my opinion.
edit: Plus looking at Rod's post and following it on, what happens if the guy decided he is fed up of Eve leaves and just passes the isk to a friends account along with all his stuff and never says where the isk came from.
All he tells his friend is something like 'I'm leaving I've given you all my isk and stuff, bye and good luck.'
Is this guy responsible for the scheme or do the investors just petition and get their initial investment back or do they take into account and dividends paid out?
It can all get a little complicated.
MT
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Samurai Saija
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:49:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Max Teranous I'm wondering what the gm's new guidelines are for whether they get involved or not. Amount of isk involved? Number of players scammed? Number of whining posts on the forums? Other?
or if rules were broken? Read my post above.
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