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Samuel Triptee
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
19
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Posted - 2014.06.24 12:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
The current mechanism is very well thought out.
I never did understand why doing something that was little more than mining would allow a system to be overturned. We used to simply warp in, shoot one rat, watch d-scan, and wait out a timer... mining was actually more difficult.
The OP seems to address the issue of making ISK, not the issue of FW system control.
Flipping systems will indeed be a bit more difficult, but it's Faction WARFARE, not Faction FARMING. |
SeaSaw
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
67
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Posted - 2014.06.24 12:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
Good Sirs;
At max skills you can solo a novice offensive plex in a t1 3stabbed rifter. It does take a long time and lots of ammo.
as soon as anyone shows up you have to warp away of course.
I have to agree that fw isn't so much for solo pirates anymore and that means less solo pvp.
I never payed attention to the meta game of who owns what system that the farmers were messing up (other than it was a long way from hek to the nearest ammar system). The meta game about taking systems and all that probably interested guys who ran fw guilds and they are probably happy. But for the solo pvp player, the game is even duller now.
your humble servent seasaw |
Shelom Severasse
Elite Kombat Academy
17
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Posted - 2014.06.24 13:53:00 -
[33] - Quote
pretty sure i can take care of a medium ncp with something smaller than a cruiser and also not an algos nor catalyst. t2 weaps mate |
Namdor
Nice POS
73
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Posted - 2014.06.24 14:57:00 -
[34] - Quote
I don't think this can really be said to have had the intended effect. I still see plenty of stabbed farmers - they just tend to be d-plexing. So, it nerfed their income a little (which is fine), but it didn't persuade them to fit actual combat ships and pewpew.
Meanwhile, the increased DPS of the plex rats means o-plexers are less inclined to stick around for a fight. They're actually less inclined to pewpew.
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
289
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Posted - 2014.06.24 15:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
Namdor wrote:I don't think this can really be said to have had the intended effect. I still see plenty of stabbed farmers - they just tend to be d-plexing. So, it nerfed their income a little (which is fine), but it didn't persuade them to fit actual combat ships and pewpew.
Meanwhile, the increased DPS of the plex rats means o-plexers are less inclined to stick around for a fight. They're actually less inclined to pewpew.
Not sure that this is correct. The changes were intended to nerf farming, not make it impossible - the shift to deplexing was entirely foreseeable. And it's not a small nerf, either... with a 25% penalty base and multiplied by the low contested percentages across the warzones these days, you're looking at roughly 20-35% of pre-Kronos LP/hour IF NOT LESS. Losing 65-80%+ of your LP/hour is a HUGE hit to your income.
For Minmatar, at Tier 4, only 14/57 systems are in double digits contested percentage. Even at Tier 4, plexing at 10% contested is 7.5% of 250%, or 18.75% of Tier 2 rewards. That SUCKS. Even deplexing for Gallente is only going to earn you 30-40% of Tier 2 base rewards. For Amarr and Caldari, it's almost not even worth it at all.
Even if they're offensive plexing, by making it harder to run larger plexes and take longer in general, I'd bet that even offensive plexing has taken a 30%+ hit to income on average.
I've not noticed the NPCs getting their DPS buffed, though they definitely tank a lot harder these days.
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flakeys
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2277
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Posted - 2014.06.24 15:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
Artuard Envien wrote:
I have almost half of the pvp I had before Kronos INSIDE plexes.
I'd have to agree with this one it seems a lot harder to find solo fights.I'm at the point where i just engage anything that is in the plex even though i know i'll never win just to at least have a fight.Was begging a daredevil to engage my t1 ship the other day just because i had jumped 15 systems without a fight and i even thanked him after he shot it to hell in a blink.
However i don't know if it is purely because of the changes , the summertime or a mentallity change.
And then there's allways the ''everything used to be better'' ....
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Namdor
Nice POS
73
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Posted - 2014.06.24 15:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Namdor wrote:I don't think this can really be said to have had the intended effect. I still see plenty of stabbed farmers - they just tend to be d-plexing. So, it nerfed their income a little (which is fine), but it didn't persuade them to fit actual combat ships and pewpew.
Meanwhile, the increased DPS of the plex rats means o-plexers are less inclined to stick around for a fight. They're actually less inclined to pewpew.
Not sure that this is correct. The changes were intended to nerf farming, not make it impossible - the shift to deplexing was entirely foreseeable. And it's not a small nerf, either... with a 25% penalty base and multiplied by the low contested percentages across the warzones these days, you're looking at roughly 20-35% of pre-Kronos LP/hour IF NOT LESS. Losing 65-80%+ of your LP/hour is a HUGE hit to your income.
Yeah, I give zero fucks about anyone's ****** farming income. The basic assertion was that it has had a detrimental effect on the amount of pew. Truly and sincerely, **** your farming.
There is nothing more tedious than someone mewling about the farmability of what was originally intended to be a dedicated PvP system.
Stabbed rabbit farmers were shitting up FW, so a change was made. While the change may have nerfed the income for the little vermin, it didn't nerf it enough to stop them from doing it. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
289
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Posted - 2014.06.24 16:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Namdor wrote:I can't imagine why you would think anything you just said was, in any way, relevant to what I actually said.
Me: This has reduced pew. There is less "war" in "faction war" now.
You: BLERRRRG FARMING INCOME!
It doesn't matter that stabbed plexing pays less, because it's obviously still attractive enough that plenty of people still do it. Simply nerfing their income hasn't convinced them to participate as combatants. 1. You stated that the changes haven't had the intended effect, then mentioned the change to deplexing and a "small" reduction in income. I stated that the changes were never intended to stop farming, the deplex adaptation was easily foreseen, and that the income reduction isn't "small" - it's actually pretty major.
2. You stated the changes haven't forced farmers to fight. I've been arguing for a while that there's no way to force them to fight, and there's nothing in the changes that should lead us to assume they were intended to force them to fight.
3. The heavier tanks on the NPCs are in fact forcing higher DPS fits on farmers who choose to offensive plex, which is a change from before. Which is in fact working as intended.
4. I haven't observed an increase in rat DPS, which you claim is discouraging PvP. Rat spawn rates do make it more likely for one to be in the plex while you're getting pewed, though, which I concede may lead folks to be more risk averse - especially when attempting to run larger plexes in smaller ships.
I may be giving the average forum poster far too much credit, in assuming that they have been following the various threads on these changes and can understand what I actually typed, instead of assuming that I can psychically intuit the hidden meaning behind their post. |
flakeys
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2277
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 16:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:I may be giving the average forum poster far too much credit, in assuming that they have been following the various threads on these changes and can understand what I actually typed, instead of assuming that I can psychically intuit the hidden meaning behind their post.
Your new on these forums aren't you ?
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
289
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 17:27:00 -
[40] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Veskrashen wrote:I may be giving the average forum poster far too much credit, in assuming that they have been following the various threads on these changes and can understand what I actually typed, instead of assuming that I can psychically intuit the hidden meaning behind their post. Your new on these forums aren't you ? Nope, been counseled regarding my optimistic outlook for reasoned debate several times. Doesn't stick.
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Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
407
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 17:33:00 -
[41] - Quote
Can't kill the rat in the ship you are using? Get a ship that can, or get some help from your fellow militia members. This is after all a MMO. |
flakeys
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2278
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 18:17:00 -
[42] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:flakeys wrote:Veskrashen wrote:I may be giving the average forum poster far too much credit, in assuming that they have been following the various threads on these changes and can understand what I actually typed, instead of assuming that I can psychically intuit the hidden meaning behind their post. Your new on these forums aren't you ? Nope, been counseled regarding my optimistic outlook for reasoned debate several times. Doesn't stick.
I never needed counseling , i just got married , killed off any optimism left in me .
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Rahelis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
66
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Posted - 2014.06.24 18:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
FW is getting better as we speak.
Tons of fights in and around plexes.
Afk farmers went to null - many null bears now run missions to pay fpr their null careers.
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
289
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 20:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:FW is getting better as we speak.
Tons of fights in and around plexes.
Afk farmers went to null - many null bears now run missions to pay fpr their null careers.
Mission Status: Accomplished. |
Nick Starkey
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
62
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Posted - 2014.06.30 22:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
If by 'mission accomplished' you mean these changes have only caused stagnation and negative results, then you are correct.
First of all, farmers are not gone. There is no reduction in farmer numbers either, anyone active in Black Rise can attest to this. The new rats have only made the grand majority of farmers stick with defensives, and with the new large spawns their isk/hour is actually better than before. The 'dedicated' farmers (i.e those that weren't just 1 day alts and were trained to run missions) simply switched to afk stabbed drone cruisers like vexors and arbitrators and are happily farming mediums and larges all day long while watching netflix. The bots adjusted their scripts and now stay around 30km before cloaking up. It took them 3 days to adapt to this.
This created a big imbalance between defending and attacking systems. Not only offensives take much longer to complete (due to constant spawns) you also have to deal with nearly every farming jumping to counter plex said systems the moment they hit 90%+, and again very few of them are offensively farming to help the cause. What once used to be a dynamic system now becomes very stagnant.
Another issue with these new mechanics is that it needlessly restricts the amount of viable frigates you can use to run offensives. Kiting ships have too low dps to run smalls and even some lower skilled pilots struggle to finish novices now. If you do the maths, you're spending like 10m on faction ammo just to kill the npcs to flip just a couple outposts. You actually make far LESS isk/hr doing offensives because of this, not even counting the added risk of intervention on enemy territory and the added time it takes to cap each outpost. This forces people to use high dps ships to PVP because of a purely arbitrary PVE mechanic. This is ********. It also does NOTHING to prevent smaller ships from farming larger outposts. An enyo or a catalyst still solo a large rat with no issues.
In addition to increasing the barrier of entry to new players (one of the main advantages of FW), it heavily skews the risk and reward between offensive and defensive plexing. It causes less need to fight over homesystems, it still leaves the warzone in the hands of farmers and actually removed the only positive thing farmers added to the system: reducing the boring work for PVPers and preventing stagnation of half way contested systems.
Anyone active and not delusional will agree there's a large drop in motivation to contest systems post Kronos, less action overal to defend systems, less VPs generated everyday and less systems being flipped every week. And the main LP faucet (i.e broken mission design) is still untouched. FW space is actually more attractive to pirates and neutrals than ever now.
I have said these new mechanics were stupid the moment I saw them. Very little thought was put into them and they are only a half assed fix of the real issues at hand. .. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2326
|
Posted - 2014.06.30 23:36:00 -
[46] - Quote
I find it hilarious that a Fweddit guy complains about rats when they avoided defensive plexing by living outside the warzone.
If you are a kitey nanofag just interested in solo fights (read: pointing ab-fit brawlers at range and getting lunch while your 50 dps garmur kills him slowly), then fight outside ANY plex or fight inside a defensive plex. Those dudes warping to your plex don't know whether you're inside or out, and you're still pretty much safe and can GTFO whenever you want.
If you're whining about getting a system to 90% only to have defensive plexing alts bring that percentage down, then get a couple friends and have them help you out for that last 10%.
Adapt, die, or continue to whine on the forums.
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Luwc
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
157
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 06:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
Red Khalmer wrote:Disagree totally with OP, I think its working great. I really like what they did to the plexes. If you are going to take medium you should bring your friends or a bigger ship than a frigate. The Farmer tears has been plenty and its great to see. Now we just need to nerf the main ISK source for the Farmers which is the Missions. Faction warfare is going in the right direction and im overjoyed about it!
yes... because you are only doing Dplexing while sitting at T4.
You sound more like a farmer yourself tbh. http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif |
Luwc
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
157
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 06:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
The system is completly broken because it unbalances FW in a extreme manner.
Instead of nerfng they buffed the farmers.
Now they can just sit in the sites and Dplex at tier 4 which is still great isk.
Having the huge ass rat to protect them.
The War zones barely change hands because defending systems is made so much easier and flipping them so much harder which means FW space stagnates.
Of course there are people supporting the new system but those are usualy the ones sitting at the defensive site farming D-plexes all day.
PVP Skills count less nowadays as its all about farming the sites.
For example which I have noticed multiple times :
You form a fleet to do offensive plexing with T1 frigs to be able to run novices. Sooner or later you will run out of novices and smalls to plex. The enemy forms cruisers and you have to go reship to cruisers just to see the hostile running away.
So you run the med and large... woops ... now its only small and novice again... burn 10jumps back. grab a frig to run a single site with your 10-20 man fleet.
What is really ******** about FW is the sizes they have for the sites.
Remove all ship restrictions. Force people to bring heavy and expensive fleets.
The Farming will stop and there will be plenty more action in FW. http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
856
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 07:32:00 -
[49] - Quote
You've just set a pretty high bar for the July FW Epic Whine Awards.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order Repeat 0ffenders
949
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Posted - 2014.07.01 08:20:00 -
[50] - Quote
Luwc wrote:You form a fleet to do offensive plexing with T1 frigs to be able to run novices. Sooner or later you will run out of novices and smalls to plex. The enemy forms cruisers and you have to go reship to cruisers just to see the hostile running away.
So you run the med and large... woops ... now its only small and novice again... burn 10jumps back. grab a frig to run a single site with your 10-20 man fleet.
Try splitting your fleet. |
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Nick Starkey
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
63
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Posted - 2014.07.01 09:17:00 -
[51] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:I find it hilarious that a Fweddit guy complains about rats when they avoided defensive plexing by living outside the warzone. Adapt, die, or continue to whine on the forums.
Did you also say the same to half your corp complaining about the same things in the dev blog thread?
X Gallentius wrote: If you are a kitey nanofag just interested in solo fights (read: pointing ab-fit brawlers at range and getting lunch while your 50 dps garmur kills him slowly), then fight outside ANY plex or fight inside a defensive plex. Those dudes warping to your plex don't know whether you're inside or out, and you're still pretty much safe and can GTFO whenever you want.
Remember when I said:
Nick Starkey wrote: At this point most of my engagements are outside the outposts.
?
2/10 for trying, though. need to work on your trolling skills .. |
Logan PewPew
Crazy Bird Inc. The Fire Nation Syndicate
11
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Posted - 2014.07.01 14:08:00 -
[52] - Quote
Zenoidan wrote:Bienator II wrote:stick with the right plex size for your ship. Mediums where never intended to be soloed by a single frig. This is the dumbest comment I have ever heard. Most T1 frigs CAN NOT solo the novice plex effectively anymore. Dont believe me? Try it. Tell me how you far and what ship you tried. There are only 3-4 optimal t1 frigs for novice plexes now. But your right. Thats working as intended...
All of the Faction navy frigs do it just fine and i've used the Punisher as well. I know because i've been o-plexing every night for the last week. |
Logan PewPew
Crazy Bird Inc. The Fire Nation Syndicate
11
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Posted - 2014.07.01 14:12:00 -
[53] - Quote
Zenoidan wrote:The change is stupid and it has turned FW into Pve.
You will kill so many rats before you get a fight or the timer runs out it feels like I am a mission runner. Seriously.
You will need a back up ammo hauler. Not lying.
No more fun t1 support frigs flying around. They cant handle the novice rats optimally. Just because you can kill 1 of these rats does not mean you have the staying power to kill the next 12. You will be at half armor and no shields by the timer the timer ticks or you get someone to fight.
No one wants this bullshit. The system is AWFUL. Its not working as intended because if it was it would not be deterring solo pvp. Right now no one wants to sit in an offensive plex only to be added on by a rat during the fight. Thats bullshit. This is a PVP mechanic, not PVE and right now you get more PVE than PVP.
How the **** is that working as intended.
Fact is if you are not in FW you do not know how awful this change is and you are in no way relevant to the conversation.
Lazors do a spectacular job and i think i've gone through MAYBE 1 set of Scorch in the last three days and the T2 crystals degrade alot faster, you could probably get away with using t1 crystals easily.
Or just use faction ammo and up that dps. |
Logan PewPew
Crazy Bird Inc. The Fire Nation Syndicate
11
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Posted - 2014.07.01 14:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Namdor wrote:I don't think this can really be said to have had the intended effect. I still see plenty of stabbed farmers - they just tend to be d-plexing. So, it nerfed their income a little (which is fine), but it didn't persuade them to fit actual combat ships and pewpew.
Meanwhile, the increased DPS of the plex rats means o-plexers are less inclined to stick around for a fight. They're actually less inclined to pewpew.
Not sure that this is correct. The changes were intended to nerf farming, not make it impossible - the shift to deplexing was entirely foreseeable. And it's not a small nerf, either... with a 25% penalty base and multiplied by the low contested percentages across the warzones these days, you're looking at roughly 20-35% of pre-Kronos LP/hour IF NOT LESS. Losing 65-80%+ of your LP/hour is a HUGE hit to your income. For Minmatar, at Tier 4, only 14/57 systems are in double digits contested percentage. Even at Tier 4, plexing at 10% contested is 7.5% of 250%, or 18.75% of Tier 2 rewards. That SUCKS. Even deplexing for Gallente is only going to earn you 30-40% of Tier 2 base rewards. For Amarr and Caldari, it's almost not even worth it at all. Even if they're offensive plexing, by making it harder to run larger plexes and take longer in general, I'd bet that even offensive plexing has taken a 30%+ hit to income on average. I've not noticed the NPCs getting their DPS buffed, though they definitely tank a lot harder these days.
I have to disagree here, with the introduction of consistant Large Plex spawns my LP/hour has skyrocketed. Hazard to say that in regards to d-plexing the isk/hr ratio has probably increased due to the very same.
Me plus maybe 2 or 3 others in AF/Dessie's o-plex larges with very little difficulty. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
873
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 14:21:00 -
[55] - Quote
Logan PewPew wrote:Common sense This is what FW needs!
More Logan PewPew, less BitterVet QQ. |
Logan PewPew
Crazy Bird Inc. The Fire Nation Syndicate
11
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Posted - 2014.07.01 14:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
I have noticed that its harder to put a system into contestation.
I think the real problem is that the plexes should really have a corresponding % increase upon completion.
.7% for completing a Large plex is a bit ridiculous it should be more. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2327
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 14:29:00 -
[57] - Quote
Nick Starkey wrote:....stuff... Hey you've adapted. Excellent. Carry on. |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Repeat 0ffenders
301
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 15:09:00 -
[58] - Quote
Logan PewPew wrote:I have noticed that its harder to put a system into contestation.
I think the real problem is that the plexes should really have a corresponding % increase upon completion.
.7% for completing a Large plex is a bit ridiculous it should be more.
No, that would encourage an imbalance towards larger ships. FW is about small gang and small ships. You already get more LP for doing larger sites which should be enough. QCATS is recruiting:-á https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3896299 |
Logan PewPew
Crazy Bird Inc. The Fire Nation Syndicate
11
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Posted - 2014.07.01 15:25:00 -
[59] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Logan PewPew wrote:I have noticed that its harder to put a system into contestation.
I think the real problem is that the plexes should really have a corresponding % increase upon completion.
.7% for completing a Large plex is a bit ridiculous it should be more. No, that would encourage an imbalance towards larger ships. FW is about small gang and small ships. You already get more LP for doing larger sites which should be enough.
How does it create an imbalance? You can take a large plex with small ships and you can take large ships with small ships.
I think that the mechanic should go further and decrease the plex time based on the number of ships you have on the plex just like absoutely EVERY other CTF/Control Point style game you've ever played. It doesn't have to be something drastic but it could maybe reduce the time grinding plexes by 25-30% i.e. instead of 20 minutes on a plex an 8 man gang could plex it in 15 minuntes
In my opinion it needs to be more about forcing the systems into contestation faster rather than these multiple week long grind fests that the mechanic forces people into now.
As it stands now it's not Faction Warfare as much as Faction Grindfest
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Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Repeat 0ffenders
301
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Posted - 2014.07.01 16:05:00 -
[60] - Quote
Logan PewPew wrote:Andre Vauban wrote:Logan PewPew wrote:I have noticed that its harder to put a system into contestation.
I think the real problem is that the plexes should really have a corresponding % increase upon completion.
.7% for completing a Large plex is a bit ridiculous it should be more. No, that would encourage an imbalance towards larger ships. FW is about small gang and small ships. You already get more LP for doing larger sites which should be enough. How does it create an imbalance? You can take a large plex with small ships and you can take large ships with small ships. I think that the mechanic should go further and decrease the plex time based on the number of ships you have on the plex just like absoutely EVERY other CTF/Control Point style game you've ever played. It doesn't have to be something drastic but it could maybe reduce the time grinding plexes by 25-30% i.e. instead of 20 minutes on a plex an 8 man gang could plex it in 15 minuntes In my opinion it needs to be more about forcing the systems into contestation faster rather than these multiple week long grind fests that the mechanic forces people into now. As it stands now it's not Faction Warfare as much as Faction Grindfest
No and no..
In order for you to increase the VP for large plexes, you need to decrease the VP for smaller plexes otherwise you decrease the time it takes to take a system. This should not be changed, especially in the shorter direction. If that is done, it means that an attacker or defender no longer needs to win the majority of plexes, they just need to win the large plexes. This means bigger fleets in bigger ships to take just the large and maybe medium plexes; the novice and smalls can now be ignored entirely. This is bad for the small gang game. Currently you need to be able to win 3 of the 4 plexes (novice, small, medium, or large) at the same time to take/defend a system. Currently if an opponent is unwilling to ship down from their HACS into frigates or destroyers, they will lose. This is a good thing.
As far as reducing time to take a plex with more people, that is just a silly idea. FW is a beautiful thing in Eve because it rewards those who can split up their forces and complete the most objectives at the same time. You optimize LP and VP by obtaining it with the fewest amount of people required. Adding anything that requires more people to accomplish it is a bad idea. Please go back to null sec. FW is not null sec or null sec light and should not ever be that, it is small gang pvp. QCATS is recruiting:-á https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3896299 |
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