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Kymara
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Posted - 2006.06.15 09:31:00 -
[31]
Goons have one thing going for them now: they never lose financially because of their shoestring fleets.
They have one major downside now: they cannot compete for controllable space because they lack staying power, logistics and capitals.
As time goes by, more goons fly better ships. Some will fly capitals, logistics will develop and leaders emerge.
But then, their strongpoint becomes a weakness. The weakness any regular blob alliance has: it can be hurt.
Zerglings can't play for keeps, and playing for keeps means you can no longer zerg. Something's going to give one way or another as time progresses.
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thoth foc
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Posted - 2006.06.15 09:43:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Iratus Caelestis Were all the fleet commanders born being able to do it, did baby Thol come out the womb whispering primary targets while never panicking or do you think that out of 2000 people its possible a couple might actually turn out to be pretty good.
A kinna extreme example.. few ppl join games now with no past experience in online gaming.. not all can translate their experience between games.. but a desire and drive shows never the less..
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Alaesa
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Posted - 2006.06.15 10:42:00 -
[33]
I don't know why anyone bothers commenting on goon posts.
its always the same.
if you kill 1 hundred of them in frigs and cruisers, then lose you BS they claim a victory. as their stuff cost less than yours. even though you have that isk to spend on that ship
However now that they fly bs's and expensive ships they arnt as ready to lose them. And zerg tactics dont work with BS's
I also notice that they havnt had another growth spurt. I tak it they have exausted the fund of players in SA forums. They may get a trickle but not much else.
TBH, tactics, leadership, skill points, and cohesion of forces will always win over zergness
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Azeroth Uluntil
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Posted - 2006.06.15 13:17:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Alaesa I don't know why anyone bothers commenting on goon posts.
its always the same.
if you kill 1 hundred of them in frigs and cruisers, then lose you BS they claim a victory. as their stuff cost less than yours. even though you have that isk to spend on that ship
However now that they fly bs's and expensive ships they arnt as ready to lose them. And zerg tactics dont work with BS's
I also notice that they havnt had another growth spurt. I tak it they have exausted the fund of players in SA forums. They may get a trickle but not much else.
TBH, tactics, leadership, skill points, and cohesion of forces will always win over zergness
As I understand it, the ceos of the corps have put in petitions for additional corp related skills to increase their members, as they have apparently or are about to run out of room. I don't think it's a member problem.
Goon posts are a nice break from BoB posts.
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Kannelid
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Posted - 2006.06.15 13:35:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil Edited by: Azeroth Uluntil on 15/06/2006 09:15:37
Originally by: Iratus Caelestis You all assume that they will stay in T1 cruisers for ever.
Their skill points will be going up all the time, look at the killboard to see just how often they are actually in intys and the like.
Factor in the potential for wealth. All those active members and a 10% tax rate. They are pulling in billions in revenue just from taxes, then factor in the hive collective (Hence the bees) working towards reaching goals. They've reached all their target goals so far, don't think they'll stop now.
Also keep in mind, all it takes is 10 vagabonds to wipe out anything they can put together right now.
rofl D2 have taken considerbly more than 10 hacs into lower syndicate on more than 1 occassions and got their ass kicked and you know it.
Not that a group like goonfleet could hope to stand against D2 or BoB in a truly large fleet fight with mostly BS on both sides but they deffo have plenty of people among the noobs capable of flying T2 ships and some good pvpers.
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Cadiz
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Posted - 2006.06.15 13:41:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ab Initio Actually, quite the opposite has allready been proven, for the same reasons quoted in the OP.
The server currently does not allow blobbing past a certain point, and that point is current attainable by most major alliances. When that point is reached, the side with the most experienced (and to a point higher sp) pilots will likely come out on top.
Its wonderful having 1000 people in gang, but when you can only manager 200vs200 or so max at the moment, it doesn't really help you.
Very true. We ran into this plenty often in 9CG. Sure, maybe you can bring in 250 - 300 people to the opponent's 125 - 150, but once everybody starts getting 5-minute activation delays on modules once local goes past 200 or so...what's the point? You're just screwing everybody over.
At this point in time, mass numbers in EVE are actually self-defeating - unless you plan on using them to cover multiple areas simultaneously, anyways. But you can't use them all at one decisive location, otherwise you're creating a hellishly laggy quagmire that's not fun for anybody to deal with.
------ Director, Blood Moon Horde "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence." |
Tenpenny Six
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Posted - 2006.06.15 13:43:00 -
[37]
Originally by: DirtyHarry Smartbomb > goons
that is all
Orbit distance 6000 meters > smartbombs
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Qu'ut Nez
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Posted - 2006.06.15 13:44:00 -
[38]
Goonies will be a power when 1) they get more sp and capital ships 2) remedial stops doing diplomacy
They also need to make more friends. They need powerful allies in 0.0 and many powerful alliances needs the goonies, although I doubt many will admit it after remedials thread.
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H00KER
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Posted - 2006.06.15 13:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: DirtyHarry Smartbomb > goons
that is all
I love how this one comes up every time. You really think that everyone in the goons flies T1 frigates? You really think we couldnt field three or four curses? you really think your smart bombs will work with no cap? Im not saying goonfleet is invincible, but in this case smarties *DONT* have the answer
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Ryle
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Posted - 2006.06.15 13:54:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Witch Doctor I personally think if GF domination were going to happen, it would have happened by now. The leadership is just not strong enough to sustain the organization. Dissention will eat from within. I mean, mocking someone who died IRL? That's not someone you can follow for very long if you have any self-respect. They also make some childish diplomatic mistakes that will cost them in the long run. Could be wrong, I suppose, but they are showing all the signs of the alliances that have collapsed in the past.
I think you underestimate them a good bit.
Most of GoonFleet are members of SomethingAwful, the rest are direct friends of those members.
SomethingAwful is all about crazy antics and ****ing people off. Mocking someone who died IRL? Cakewalk, and hardly worth mentioning.
How do I know all this? I'm a Gen[M]ay member and SA lurker. ------------------------------- -If you're going through Hell... Keep going.- |
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Kannelid
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Posted - 2006.06.15 14:00:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Kannelid on 15/06/2006 14:00:45 Edited by: Kannelid on 15/06/2006 14:00:32
Originally by: Ryle
Originally by: Witch Doctor I personally think if GF domination were going to happen, it would have happened by now. The leadership is just not strong enough to sustain the organization. Dissention will eat from within. I mean, mocking someone who died IRL? That's not someone you can follow for very long if you have any self-respect. They also make some childish diplomatic mistakes that will cost them in the long run. Could be wrong, I suppose, but they are showing all the signs of the alliances that have collapsed in the past.
I think you underestimate them a good bit.
Most of GoonFleet are members of SomethingAwful, the rest are direct friends of those members.
SomethingAwful is all about crazy antics and ****ing people off. Mocking someone who died IRL? Cakewalk, and hardly worth mentioning.
How do I know all this? I'm a Gen[M]ay member and SA lurker.
It was still distasteful, stupid and quite pathetic. Im not surprised people hold the view of remedial they do. But that has nothing to with this thread or really the rest of goonfleet.
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Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.06.15 14:05:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ryle SomethingAwful is all about crazy antics and ****ing people off. Mocking someone who died IRL? Cakewalk, and hardly worth mentioning.
Then in that case I am glad I am not a member of that forum. There are certain things in life that should never be done IRL or online, and mocking the deceased is one of them.
Max
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Ralerin
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Posted - 2006.06.15 14:05:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Svett AWESOME!!!! Instead of the page being filled with BoB threads it will now be filled with GOON threads!!
Come on now, deep down, we all know that every thread in this forum is a BoB thread.
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Alaesa
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Posted - 2006.06.15 14:29:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Alaesa on 15/06/2006 14:29:14 see what I mean.
They talk about their tech 1 friggy fleets and how you cant own them because of it.
But then in the next breath they shout about how they fly BS's now and it only take them an hour to mine for said BS etc etc etc
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Mark A
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Posted - 2006.06.15 14:40:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Mark A on 15/06/2006 14:43:49
If GoonFleet were to evolve to the point where they were all in BS they wouldn't be GoonFleet anymore. And I don't just mean that in a philosophical sense - they would no longer be casual players, they would no longer have no real opinion on the direction of their corp/alliance, they would no longer not care about losing their ship.
All of which makes a group that large infeasible and it would split. That is they become a regular alliance - while their leadership is competent, its clearly not strong enough to hold together those numbers once most of the members start to give a crap. More likely many of the the good players who have got into EVE in a serious way will graduate to a "proper" alliance (define this how you like, capital ship fleet would be a good start).
Also judging victory in terms of absolute financial loss is bogus. There are many more important factors; mostly obviously relative financial loss (vs your assets), loss of play time resetting after a ganking, morale hit of winning vs losing, the ability to impose your will on the universe and so on. GF come out on the wrong side of most of these.
They are definately a unique element of the EVE universe, but military powerhouse in the making, I don't think so.
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steveid
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Posted - 2006.06.15 15:45:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Eternal Fury Are the Goons the New BoB?
we'll have BoB and Goon posts..
All they have done is take the basic approach to warfare, and expanded on it where they could in this game.
Strength in numbers. Cheap weapons, in the hands of lightly trained people, will be a great offence against most.
But when they start running into smaller corps who are very proficient in combat, well disaplined, and work as a single unit, they'll run into their greatest opponent.
THEN you'll see them evolve. Once they've evolved to the point that each member is highly trained, and work as a cohesive unit, they truly WILL be a force to be reckond with.
Things are more fun when you have multiple superpowers, and multi front wars.
The goons will always be a horrible entity to fight so long as they use t1 ships and mods. No pirate corp is going to go down there and hunt them for ****ty loot, and no fleet likes to put billions of isk in a potentially losing engagement with a fleet worth a tenth of its value. In a war of attrition like that there will always be only one loser.
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Ralerin
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Posted - 2006.06.15 15:50:00 -
[47]
Originally by: steveid
The goons will always be a horrible entity to fight so long as they use t1 ships and mods. No pirate corp is going to go down there and hunt them for ****ty loot, and no fleet likes to put billions of isk in a potentially losing engagement with a fleet worth a tenth of its value. In a war of attrition like that there will always be only one loser.
Explain to me how this is a bad tactic? They could risk billions of isk, or they could risk millions, and get nearly the same results.
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Tadis
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Posted - 2006.06.15 15:51:00 -
[48]
Im sure a goodfleet member came up with a rough calculation as to the average SP of Goon members.
It was also viable to figure from that solution that as long as they keep roughly the same numbers they employ atm, that one day (within the next few months) they will have a large BS fleet (as long as they sort out their logitics).
Eve is a game much like chess. Plan ahead, look into the future and try and predict the most likely occurences based on the percentages of probability and then base your plans around that.
If goonfleet do, then they may not be a fleet of tech 1 ships for long ^^ ___________________________________
NRG Recruiting |
Witch Doctor
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Posted - 2006.06.15 15:59:00 -
[49]
I know all about the Cult of SomethingAwful and the Jonestown Kool-aid they are passing around. The point is that to keep a group that large together, regardless of the out-of-game cult mechanics, you need a strong, mature, diplomatic leader - not only to pacify a big group but to represent their alliance in the broader political arena.
I don't want to take anything away from what they've done. They have a clever game plan and a large, loyal (for the moment) base of players. But the nature of that approach is very "Us vs. Everyone", and they have a leader who agitates the perception of that by the community instead of diminishing it. They are now in a position where they have to go conquer 0.0 space, recognizing the limitations of NPC-owned Syndicate. Since their base of power, Syndicate, is so completely indefensible, politics are very important. What do we see in the other Goon thread? In one fell swoop, their leader has a) irritated Bob, one of many entities that could give them a world of hurt, b) shown what is perceived as excessive pride in a war with a well-respected alliance, NORAD, c) burned an ally in V LINC who has flown with them for over a year, and d) lit up their internal forums with dissenting bees upset with his post.
My point is that unless they gain diplomatic sophistication very soon, they will not establish themselves as a major, lasting player. They are especially vulnerable to this because their base is a neutral station. One weekend, Bob can take 300 pilots with ships into S-U, dock up, jumpclone back out, and any time they want to party, jumpclone right into the heart of their alliance with a full blob fleet ready to go. That's tough to defend, so they better make friends, which they have not been able to do. It's only a matter of time before the bees recognize this and demand changes, and that's when alliances fracture.
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Bippa
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Posted - 2006.06.15 16:03:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Witch Doctor you need a strong, mature, diplomatic leader - not only to pacify a big group but to represent their alliance in the broader political arena.
haha you know nothing of goons. They would eat this pansy alive.
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Righteous Fury
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Posted - 2006.06.15 16:17:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Ryle How do I know all this? I'm a Gen[M]ay member and SA lurker.
OT > SA/GenMay
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Dirtball
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Posted - 2006.06.15 16:17:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Witch Doctor you need a strong, mature, diplomatic leader - not only to pacify a big group but to represent their alliance in the broader political arena.
Broder Political Arena if you can bring enough peeps to lag the server who gives a rats butt about the politcal arena.
Originally by: Witch Doctor Bob can take 300 pilots with ships into S-U, dock up, jumpclone back out, and any time they want to party, jumpclone right into the heart of their alliance with a full blob fleet ready to go.
What are they gonna do take the Serpentis Stations?
Captiol fleets dont mean anything in syndicate people can just not play for a week then log back in later.
Someone better step in and silence this guy cause he is making MC look like total noobs in the broder politcal arena.
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Constantine Arcanum
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Posted - 2006.06.15 16:18:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Delezar Tech 1 frigs are no threat, when they all fly bs it might be a thread, but then everyone else will fly carriers. So far, I don't think there is much to worry about.
Not when there's 100 frigs. -----------------------------------------------
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.06.15 16:33:00 -
[54]
Currently goonies can defend any system with non-conquerable stations forever.
But they can't really launch an offensive in somebody elses's space (that doesn't have npc' stations).
Give them a few more months though...
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Donna Divine
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Posted - 2006.06.15 16:42:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Donna Divine on 15/06/2006 16:43:29
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Currently goonies can defend any system with non-conquerable stations forever.
But they can't really launch an offensive in somebody elses's space (that doesn't have npc' stations).
Give them a few more months though...
Yeah but that's the funny part.
As long as they fly t1 frigs and cruisers they can't really be hit hard. But unless they switch to BS's, tech2 and capitals they're not going to get their own sovereign space.
See the problem for them ? As soon as they switch someone's going to hurt them and take away their toys and with it their chance of getting a foothold in a conquerable region. Hoever, not swithcing means stagnation, falling further back and a higher probability of dissent. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gilded Goose Brokerages Trading to order. |
Sister 9
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Posted - 2006.06.15 19:17:00 -
[56]
i doubt they will do well until they find a more mature leader. |
Witch Doctor
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Posted - 2006.06.15 19:20:00 -
[57]
Dirtball, you are comedy gold.
Moving on ...
As Shamis said, GF can defend, if they commit the resources to do it, non-conquerable systems forever. However, anyone can attack it forever - take 100 pilots in, dock with ships and gear, jumpclone back home, come back in a day or two whenever you want to raise hell. At some point, as Donna said and Shamis intimated, they need to go get 0.0 space. They need bigger ships and capitals and to hold territory. While they are doing so, they are projecting forces to that area. Their power base, though, is very vulnerable, and anyone can set up the ability to instantly send their forces into S-U while GF forces are invading 0.0. So that transition is going to be very difficult.
Even if they do pull it off and retrench themselves in claimed 0.0, then they are in the same boat as everyone else. Don't you think the other 0.0s have plenty of experience with lagfests? As for the "they only bring T1 frigs!" argument, anyone who has seen their fleets knows how far this is from the truth these days. They grow more conventional by the day. They look like any other blob these days, except their home system has a station that anyone can dock in.
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Ryle
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Posted - 2006.06.15 19:42:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Righteous Fury
Originally by: Ryle How do I know all this? I'm a Gen[M]ay member and SA lurker.
OT > SA/GenMay
roflcopters ------------------------------- -If you're going through Hell... Keep going.- |
Emrod
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Posted - 2006.06.15 19:54:00 -
[59]
Goon a other Bob/AsCN/D2?
For me its like more a barbarian hordes destroy everything in their path than the next new superpower in Eve!
YARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
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TylerJames
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Posted - 2006.06.15 20:46:00 -
[60]
My head hurts
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