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Quant Predictorian
Futarchist Singularitists
6
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Posted - 2014.06.14 15:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Example: Corp total share: 50 million shares
CEO owns 40m shares No directors owned any shares. Investors owned 10m shares (not even a member of the corp)
How the voting system works in this scenario?
What are the risks for CEO to lose leadership of that corp?
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Zaxix
Long Jump.
375
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Posted - 2014.06.14 18:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CEO_replacement https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Shares https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Votes
Keep in mind that if someone meets the conditions to initiate a takeover, it doesn't matter how many shares the CEO has if he doesn't or can't vote. Bokononist
-á |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4017
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Posted - 2014.06.15 00:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
WHAHAHAHAHA.
Sorry, but according to your previous post, you already knew all the ins and outs.
So...figure it out yourself.
p.s. Directors don't need shares Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Forest Archer
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
124
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Posted - 2014.06.15 00:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
If the CEO goes afk for 1 day corp can be lost in your situation. Always willing to help all you have to do is ask, though if your in the other fleet I may not help the way you want. Just a heads up. |
Quant Predictorian
Futarchist Singularitists
6
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Posted - 2014.06.15 05:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
J'Poll wrote: Sorry, but according to your previous post, you already knew all the ins and outs. So...figure it out yourself.
Where did I claim that?
5% is the number all I know (A shareholder inside a corporation that holds more than 5% of the shares, can force a vote to take over CEOship of the corporation), I'm just asking how this applied in practice. |
Forest Archer
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
124
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Posted - 2014.06.15 07:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
J'poll is probably referring to another thread, as for the vote, the vote does not have to be from someone inside the corp. and the person who initiates the corp does not need to the new candidate for CEO. But basically the vote is iniated only one vote needs to be cast even if it's one share. Vote ends after some time and what votes were cast determines action. Always willing to help all you have to do is ask, though if your in the other fleet I may not help the way you want. Just a heads up. |
Quant Predictorian
Futarchist Singularitists
6
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Posted - 2014.06.15 08:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Forest Archer wrote: But basically the vote is iniated only one vote needs to be cast even if it's one share. Vote ends after some time and what votes were cast determines action. This should be a bug. How can 50million share floating corporation can lead by just one share? 5% means 2.5 million share is needed for a corp (50 million total shares). |
Forest Archer
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
124
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Posted - 2014.06.15 10:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
This why no one gives out shares. Always willing to help all you have to do is ask, though if your in the other fleet I may not help the way you want. Just a heads up. |
Quant Predictorian
Futarchist Singularitists
6
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Posted - 2014.06.15 11:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
This is not true. How do I know this? I own 20k shares some other corp. There is nothing I can do except collecting dividends corp regularly shares. So voting power of non-directors seems only connected to 5% or something. No need too much paranoia for CEO's. Of course you shouldn't give director position to someone you don't trust. By the way there is no such thing as trust not in EVE nor in RL I guess. Just rules, power and networking. |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4019
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Posted - 2014.06.15 13:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quant Predictorian wrote:Forest Archer wrote: But basically the vote is iniated only one vote needs to be cast even if it's one share. Vote ends after some time and what votes were cast determines action. This should be a bug. How can 50million share floating corporation can lead by just one share? 5% means 2.5 million share is needed for a corp (50 million total shares).
Just like real life.
If you have a population of 50 million people and only 1 million go to vote, the 49 other people are not counted.
What you want is complete protection against harm, good luck finding that in EVE, specially if you run a corp who hands out shares to non other then yourself.
Have fun logging in every single day, just to check if nobody tries to kick you from CEO position. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
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Quant Predictorian
Futarchist Singularitists
6
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Posted - 2014.06.15 13:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
J'Poll wrote: If you have a population of 50 million people and only 1 million go to vote, the 49 other people are not counted.
Totally agree on this.
J'Poll wrote: What you want is complete protection against harm, good luck finding that in EVE, specially if you run a corp who hands out shares to non other then yourself.
I'm not seeking a complete protection against hostile takeover of a corp or whatever. I know this is almost impossible in EVE and in RL. I'm just asking how the rules are applied on here.
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J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4020
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Posted - 2014.06.15 14:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
Quant Predictorian wrote:J'Poll wrote: If you have a population of 50 million people and only 1 million go to vote, the 49 other people are not counted.
Totally agree on this. J'Poll wrote: What you want is complete protection against harm, good luck finding that in EVE, specially if you run a corp who hands out shares to non other then yourself.
I'm not seeking a complete protection against hostile takeover of a corp or whatever. I know this is almost impossible in EVE and in RL. I'm just asking how the rules are applied on here.
And that is actually pretty decently documented on something called the EVElopedia. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Haedonism Bot
Revolutionary Front
1257
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Posted - 2014.06.15 16:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
Quant Predictorian wrote: I'm not seeking a complete protection against hostile takeover of a corp or whatever. I know this is almost impossible in EVE and in RL. I'm just asking how the rules are applied on here.
Actually, it's quite easy to be completely protected from hostile takeovers in EVE. You can do what most CEOs do - immediately after founding a corp, go directly to the corp wallet and transfer all the shares to yourself, then never give them to anybody. www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com
Psychotic Monk for CSM9 |
Solai
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
259
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Posted - 2014.06.15 18:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Quant Predictorian wrote:I'm not seeking a complete protection against hostile takeover of a corp or whatever. I know this is almost impossible in EVE and in RL. I'm just asking how the rules are applied on here.
There are some areas of eve where inter-corp and inter-alliance conflict is extremely heated and competitive. Among this area of Eve gameplay, it's very common for people to start a new account for the purpose of infiltrating/awoxing/sabotaging/etc their opponents. Yet, despite this, there are many corps who have survived this long, surrounded by enemies. The way they survive is by taking proper precautions to protect themselves. These corps are indeed relatively safe.
Jolly Codgers corp - Bloodthirsty old men of Null-Sec. -á PVP and organizational excellence through maturity, for pilots age 30+. |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4020
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Posted - 2014.06.15 18:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Haedonism Bot wrote:Quant Predictorian wrote: I'm not seeking a complete protection against hostile takeover of a corp or whatever. I know this is almost impossible in EVE and in RL. I'm just asking how the rules are applied on here.
Actually, it's quite easy to be completely protected from hostile takeovers in EVE. You can do what most CEOs do - immediately after founding a corp, go directly to the corp wallet and transfer all the shares to yourself, then never give them to anybody.
HB, we already tried to tell him that couple of times before.
He didn't want to listen, he loves handing out shares.
p.s. OP, you do know that if you give me shares, I can forward them to an alt that I placed into your corp and thus get a run for CEO vote to go through with enough shares. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Quant Predictorian
Futarchist Singularitists
6
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Posted - 2014.06.15 19:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
J'Poll wrote: OP, you do know that if you give me shares, I can forward them to an alt that I placed into your corp and thus get a run for CEO vote to go through with enough shares.
Can you do that with less than 5% of total shares?
Can you do that with non-director position or even non-member of a corp?
How can you do that if only 4.99% of shares are floating and while other 95.1% held by a CEO?
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5527
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Posted - 2014.06.15 20:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Quant Predictorian wrote:J'Poll wrote: OP, you do know that if you give me shares, I can forward them to an alt that I placed into your corp and thus get a run for CEO vote to go through with enough shares.
Can you do that with less than 5% of total shares? Can you do that with non-director position or even non-member of a corp? How can you do that if only 4.99% of shares are floating and while other 95.1% held by a CEO? Unsure.
Yes.
I would assume that because if the CEO does not do anything (due to being AFK or not logging in) then it does not matter how few of the shares anyone else has. The only shares that matter are the ones that vote. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4021
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Posted - 2014.06.15 21:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Quant Predictorian wrote:J'Poll wrote: OP, you do know that if you give me shares, I can forward them to an alt that I placed into your corp and thus get a run for CEO vote to go through with enough shares.
Can you do that with less than 5% of total shares? Can you do that with non-director position or even non-member of a corp? How can you do that if only 4.99% of shares are floating and while other 95.1% held by a CEO?
1. Anybody with shares that is IN the corp can start the CEO vote, even if you only have 1 share (factual proof as we had a fuckup in one of my older corps where one of the guys thought it would be funny to click the run for CEO button right when we were doing an important vote - only trusted people had shares so CEO stayed in control but couldn't do anything for 24h)
2. DEFINATE YES. To initiate a CEO vote you either have to own shares OR be a director.
3. Only shares that vote count.
YOu can have 20mil shares, if the guy with only 1 share votes...only his vote counts Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Quant Predictorian
Futarchist Singularitists
6
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Posted - 2014.06.16 04:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
J'Poll wrote: So, please, go ahead with your plan. I will be watching it with hawk eyes to see when you lose your entire corp.
You don't know this bank and its shares. Don't you?: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=322582
The guy leading the bank sold shares at the start. When it reaches the certain level (5% below), he stopped and two ways he have: stock dilution or change business plan (instead of selling shares, he started selling corp bonds). I know this thread requires more than average knowledge of RL business and economics. Sorry to not mention at the start of the thread. I've just started this thread to know corp share mechanics of the game, and I've enlightened now. Thanks everyone, especially J'Poll to add additional paranoia on my business plan. But no I don't buy it.
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Zaxix
Long Jump.
378
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Posted - 2014.06.16 05:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Shares are pointless. Bokononist
-á |
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DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
648
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Posted - 2014.06.16 16:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Quant Predictorian wrote:J'Poll wrote: So, please, go ahead with your plan. I will be watching it with hawk eyes to see when you lose your entire corp.
You don't know this bank and its shares. Don't you?: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=322582The guy leading the bank sold shares at the start. When it reaches the certain level (5% below), he stopped and two ways he have: stock dilution or change business plan (instead of selling shares, he started selling corp bonds). I know this thread requires more than average knowledge of RL business and economics. Sorry to not mention at the start of the thread. I've just started this thread to know corp share mechanics of the game, and I've enlightened now. Thanks everyone, especially J'Poll to add additional paranoia on my business plan. But no I don't buy it.
You are not getting it.
If you as CEO has 95% of the shares, and you gave out 5% for whatever reason, yoru corp is still at risk.
"but why? when I have the most shares" This is how I would do it... I would have an alt join your corp and wait. I'd wait for you to make an announcement 'hey guys, i'm going to be on vacation for xxx I may not be on eve, such and such is in charge" if I knew enough about you, and your play patterns and if you checked daily while on vacation, I would time it. Send my single alt a share, and start a vote. You would lose CEO for 24h (a friend did this to me with his one share, due was being a ****) then I would vote you out. IF you don't log in in 24h to vote, and if say the other people with shares ignore the vote, or assume you will vote, then my alt becomes CEO.
You could have all the shares in the world, but if you are not there to vote, then you are screwed.
I could also do some nasty grief type stuff with a single share, and timing. I could remove your power for 24hours, which depending on the situation could f you up. The point is, if you are going to give out shares, make an alt corp. If the shares are for profit sharing, then no one needs to join said alt corp. If your giving out shares just because, then you are an idiot. 10 years of eve... yea i'm an addict |
Quant Predictorian
Futarchist Singularitists
6
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Posted - 2014.06.16 19:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
DaReaper, these are manageable paranoias. I'll go with my business plan. Thanks for all inputs. |
Solai
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
259
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Posted - 2014.06.16 20:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Quant Predictorian wrote:I know this thread requires more than average knowledge of RL business and economics. As someone with some economics education - This is nonsense, within the context of Eve. It's mechanics are the important part. Real life economics have only partial relevance to Eve.
But at this point I'm also morbidly curious to find out what happens to your corp, even though I regret the bad experience it will likely generate in the newbies that join you.
Jolly Codgers corp - Bloodthirsty old men of Null-Sec. -á PVP and organizational excellence through maturity, for pilots age 30+. |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4024
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 22:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Quant Predictorian wrote:J'Poll wrote: So, please, go ahead with your plan. I will be watching it with hawk eyes to see when you lose your entire corp.
You don't know this bank and its shares. Don't you?: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=322582The guy leading the bank sold shares at the start. When it reaches the certain level (5% below), he stopped and two ways he have: stock dilution or change business plan (instead of selling shares, he started selling corp bonds). I know this thread requires more than average knowledge of RL business and economics. Sorry to not mention at the start of the thread. I've just started this thread to know corp share mechanics of the game, and I've enlightened now. Thanks everyone, especially J'Poll to add additional paranoia on my business plan. But no I don't buy it.
Again. Go ahead. Even if YOU have good intentions I can promise most others dontn
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Zaxix
Long Jump.
379
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Posted - 2014.06.23 14:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Quant Predictorian wrote:DaReaper, these are manageable paranoias. I'll go with my business plan. Thanks for all inputs. You seem resistant to good information. Here's some advice: google Titans4U, Bad Bobby, and Brock Nelson.
What isn't mentioned here, possibly because many people aren't aware of it, is what all of this means in the context of an alliance. People forget that Directors have the power to set a corporation's support for the executor corporation. They also forget how corporations are accepted into an alliance. Throw in some shares, a CEO on vacation, and a single crafty director and you've got the recipe for some serious mayhem. If that character also has roles in other corporations in that alliance or is working with someone who does, you are screwed.
Bokononist
-á |
Quant Predictorian
Futarchist Singularitists
7
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Posted - 2014.06.23 18:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:Quant Predictorian wrote:DaReaper, these are manageable paranoias. I'll go with my business plan. Thanks for all inputs. You seem resistant to good information. Here's some advice: google Titans4U, Bad Bobby, and Brock Nelson. What isn't mentioned here, possibly because many people aren't aware of it, is what all of this means in the context of an alliance. People forget that Directors have the power to set a corporation's support for the executor corporation. They also forget how corporations are accepted into an alliance. Throw in some shares, a CEO on vacation, and a single crafty director and you've got the recipe for some serious mayhem. If that character also has roles in other corporations in that alliance or is working with someone who does, you are screwed.
This is why you shouldn't give director position to someone else. Right? Its like you're giving banking information to hackers in RL. So, you should know your directors, possibly face to face connection is better before giving a director position to someone else. And still you won't be safe even if you know your directors in RL. |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
669
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Posted - 2014.06.23 18:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
its your corp, if you don't wan to take the advice then that's fine and on you. 10 years of eve... yea i'm an addict |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4047
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Posted - 2014.06.23 18:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:its your corp, if you don't wan to take the advice then that's fine and on you.
But why ask for advixce in the first place then. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Zaxix
Long Jump.
379
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Posted - 2014.06.23 19:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
Quant Predictorian wrote:Zaxix wrote:Quant Predictorian wrote:DaReaper, these are manageable paranoias. I'll go with my business plan. Thanks for all inputs. You seem resistant to good information. Here's some advice: google Titans4U, Bad Bobby, and Brock Nelson. What isn't mentioned here, possibly because many people aren't aware of it, is what all of this means in the context of an alliance. People forget that Directors have the power to set a corporation's support for the executor corporation. They also forget how corporations are accepted into an alliance. Throw in some shares, a CEO on vacation, and a single crafty director and you've got the recipe for some serious mayhem. If that character also has roles in other corporations in that alliance or is working with someone who does, you are screwed. This is why you shouldn't give director position to someone else. Right? Its like you're giving banking information to hackers in RL. So, you should know your directors, possibly face to face connection is better before giving a director position to someone else. And still you won't be safe even if you know your directors in RL. If the sole reason you're using shares is to distribute ISK for some sort of investment, you should give serious thought to using a spreadsheet and direct ISK payments instead. There is no real benefit for using shares for that purpose. It's just a really convoluted way to do it. If your corporation has more than one human player in it, there are all sorts of security concerns associated with it as well. It may seem silly, but even giving a directorship to your RL brother, girlfriend, or whoever is potentially problematic. One bad fight, one drunken night, or one breakup could really screw things up.
Unless you're the only person in corp and you're the only person who will EVER be in corp, avoid shares. If you're the only person in corp, why even bother with shares? What advantage do they provide? If you've spent time on the MD subforum, you know almost no one uses them. The one example you chose to link is probably the worst example you could have chosen. "Banks" in EVE are a running MD joke, as they always end in a corp theft/scam. Shares are something of a "bait" item, as they give the appearance of owning something.
Shares, shareholding, and stock markets have never really caught on in EVE for many of the reasons in this thread. Take a look at Block Ukx (and BSAC); it's the only shares-based business I've ever seen succeed on any level in EVE. However, a lot of what made/makes that work has to do with power brokering behind the scenes. Again, google Titans4U for just how wrong things can go. If your goal is to make offerings on MD, shares aren't going to get you any more traction than a straight up bond.
Bokononist
-á |
Li Quiao
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
41
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Posted - 2014.06.23 19:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Zaxix wrote: Unless you're the only person in corp and you're the only person who will EVER be in corp, avoid shares. If you're the only person in corp, why even bother with shares? What advantage do they provide?
Well, advantage or no, you can't avoid them. When you create a corp, there will be 1000 shares which start out owned by the corp itself. Of course, you can immediately award them all to yourself. |
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