Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Murgo Annages
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 15:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm playing around in EFT trying to understand how prop mods work but I can't get my answers to match what EFT shows. For example, using an All V character I fit a Rifter with a 1MN MWD II. With the MWD turned off my max speed shows as 456, which is what I expected: 365 m/s base speed for the Rifter X 1.25 from Navigation V. Now, using the formula from here I would expect my speed with the MWD activated to be:
Base speed = 456.25 (365 m/s * 1.25 (Navigation V)) MWD multiplier = 7.25 (500% base * 1.25 (Acceleration Control V)) Thrust = 1,500,000 Mass = 1,567,000 (1,067,000 from the Rifter, 500,000 from the MWD)
Final speed = 456.25 * 7.25 * 1,500,000/1,567,000 = 3166.4 m/s, but EFT shows 3186 m/s. I haven't found a ship yet that behaves like I would expect it to when using a MWD. The link above is really old and possibly out of date, but I haven't been able to find a more recent formula. Can anyone tell me what I'm missing? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5509
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 16:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
........ this may just be the ignoramus in me... but you are off only by 20 m/sec. I would think "good enough" applies here.
Also... formulas and mechanics in EVE have this interesting tendency to alter themselves every so slightly whenever someone tries to map them out... causing untold amounts of eye-twitching and teeth grinding for hordes of OCD people. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Murgo Annages
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 16:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yes, it's not off by much, but it is off by more than rounding errors can explain. And it's not always "good enough" - for example, according to my numbers a low skilled Orca pilot might not be able to initiate warp immediately after a MWD cycle, whereas according to EFT even a minimal skilled pilot can always warp. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5510
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 16:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Murgo Annages wrote:Yes, it's not off by much, but it is off by more than rounding errors can explain. And it's not always "good enough" - for example, according to my numbers a low skilled Orca pilot might not be able to initiate warp immediately after a MWD cycle, whereas according to EFT even a minimal skilled pilot can always warp. Where are you pulling your ship and skill stats from? If it is from the Wiki then you might want to double check them against the numbers in the actual game. They are often not the same.
Also... hypothetical data and theory are one thing, but practice is often radically different. In rare cases (which are not so rare in EVE), what you can do will be completely at odds with what the numbers say is possible. Case and point: did you know that it is possible for (newly revamped) Deep Space Transport ships past 100% damage resistances using pimp mods and wormhole effects? Did you also know that doing this causes the game code to do some wonky things... like apply infinite damage to whatever ship that has 100+% resistances regardless of the weapon that hit you (like a civilian autocannon)?
So do not stress yourself too much on trying to be 100% accurate. Even the game itself is not quite sure how accurate it is.
NOTE: the Orca always warps immediately after a MWD cycle... all you need is the skills to fit it. I have used this technique for years along with webbing alts (double web an Orca or Freighter as a few seconds after it initiates warp and it will effectively "insta-warp"). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1387
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 17:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: I would think "good enough" applies here. NO NO NO
You didn't put a *meh* first...that's important :D
I'm listening to-áBj+¦rk, playing EVE, eating fishsticks, and I'm cold....this is immersion gaming. |
Murgo Annages
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 18:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Where are you pulling your ship and skill stats from? If it is from the Wiki then you might want to double check them against the numbers in the actual game. They are often not the same.
Both from EFT and in-game, I doubled checked and they match. I'm confident that my numbers are correct.
Quote:Also... hypothetical data and theory are one thing, but practice is often radically different. In rare cases (which are not so rare in EVE), what you can do will be completely at odds with what the numbers say is possible. Case and point: did you know that it is possible for (newly revamped) Deep Space Transport ships past 100% damage resistances using pimp mods and wormhole effects? Did you also know that doing this causes the game code to do some wonky things... like apply infinite damage to whatever ship that has 100+% resistances regardless of the weapon used against it (like a civilian autocannon)? So do not stress yourself too much on trying to be 100% accurate. Even the game itself is not quite sure how accurate it is. NOTE: the Orca always warps immediately after a MWD cycle... all you need is the skills to fit it. I have used this technique for years along with webbing alts (double web an Orca or Freighter as a few seconds after it initiates warp and it will effectively "insta-warp").
Sometimes 100% accuracy is important. In this case I'm making an alt Orca pilot with a month of dual-character training, so I'm on a tight skillplan. I don't want to skimp on a necessary skill or train an unnecessary one. Besides, someone out there obviously has the answer, considering that EFT and Pyfa match my in-game tests. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
971
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 18:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'm pretty sure your issue has to be with thrust vs mass (but I have no idea what the actual calculation is). It's easy enough to see that that's where the problem is, though.
A fed navy comet with armor layering 0 and a 100mm crystalline carbonide plate has exactly 1 million mass.
468.75 * 7.25 = 3,398.4375, which is exactly what you'll get in EFT (and so far, EFT has perfectly matched my in-game numbers).
For funsies, I put 4 1600mm plates on a punisher in EFT, giving it a mass of 12,940,001 (trusting EFT here - it was spot on for my in-game fits) and it gives me 765 m/s.
Using your formula: 444 * 7.25 * 1.5/12.94 = 373
A navy slicer has 1,003,000 mass:
437.5 * 7.25 * 1.5/1.503 = 3,165.54, Vs. EFT: 3166.41724
Meanwhile, a daredevil has substantially less than 1m mass (823,000).
481.25 * 7.25 * 1.5/1.323 = 3955.85, Vs. EFT: 3891
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Murgo Annages
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 18:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:I'm pretty sure your issue has to be with thrust vs mass (but I have no idea what the actual calculation is). It's easy enough to see that that's where the problem is, though.
Agreed, it definitely feels like there's some subtlety in that part of the formula that I'm missing. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
971
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 18:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ah... I think I know what the issue is.
We're applying the mass/thrust factor to the full speed, but it only applies to the portion coming from the MWD.
Slicer:
437.5 + 437.5*6.25*1.5/1.503 = 3,166.417
Daredevil:
481.25 + 481.25*6.25 * 1.5/1.323 = 3,891.4683, spot on.
The base speed is still the base speed and is unaffected by the thrust/mass ratio. "Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5514
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 18:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Murgo Annages wrote:Besides, someone out there obviously has the answer, considering that EFT and Pyfa match my in-game tests.
I wrote:NOTE: the Orca always warps immediately after a MWD cycle... all you need is the skills to fit it. I have used this technique for years Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
|
Murgo Annages
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 18:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Ah... I think I know what the issue is.
We're applying the mass/thrust factor to the full speed, but it only applies to the portion coming from the MWD.
Slicer:
437.5 + 437.5*6.25*1.5/1.503 = 3,166.417
Daredevil:
481.25 + 481.25*6.25 * 1.5/1.323 = 3,891.4683, spot on.
That fixes all of the numbers I have, perfect! Thank you. |
Elmonky
Titans of The Short Bus Universal Consortium
39
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 11:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
This thread was like watching science happening.
+1 for group thinking |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3752
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 17:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
365 m/s * (1 + Navigation 5 * 5%) * (1 + 500% MWD bonus * (1 + Acceleration 5 * 5%) * (1500000 thrust / (1067000 kg ship mass + 500000 module mass))) = 3185.8886 m/s |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |