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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11128
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 22:15:00 -
[3481] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Because you should not need to use a webber or a scout to prevent criminal activity in highsec. The police should intervene, and take appropriate action against the offenders. That is what highsec is about.
They do intervene, they just don't intervene the moment you want them to. Twitter: @EVEAndski
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -á-á - Abrazzar |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of Eden
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 22:15:00 -
[3482] - Quote
Anal Canal wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Well, I'm not steamed at all. But allowing gankers to entrap ships through bumping so that multiple waves of the EXACT SAME gankers can blow them up seems to be a clearly illogical game mechanic, and should be fixed. I will agree with you on this point. If I was in your shoes, and I saw the events your previously post take place... I would have engaged the significantly weakened Orca and scooped the wonderful pinata of cargo. Rather than you know, just sitting around.
Well, i'm actually not very interested in suicide ganking people and stealing their loot. If others do it, with appropriate game mechanics in place, that is their right. I am simply pointing out that the current game mechanics are not adequate to deal with griefer bumping, and leave slow aligning ships, regardless of their fitting choices, subject to unanswered criminal activity in highsec, which is inconsistent with its design.
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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of Eden
8
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Posted - 2014.08.29 22:17:00 -
[3483] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Because you should not need to use a webber or a scout to prevent criminal activity in highsec. The police should intervene, and take appropriate action against the offenders. That is what highsec is about. Appropriate actin requires criminal Flagg. Could you describe how the game wuld differentiat between accidenysl and intentional bumping? I'm sort am a bit inebriated but do not mind to discuss.
I suggested that being a gank attempt victim should grant you 60 seconds of immunity from bumping, which is enough time for an at the keyboard capsuleer to align and warp off. |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of Eden
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 22:20:00 -
[3484] - Quote
Andski wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Because you should not need to use a webber or a scout to prevent criminal activity in highsec. The police should intervene, and take appropriate action against the offenders. That is what highsec is about. They do intervene, they just don't intervene the moment you want them to.
No, they intervene after the first gank, and dispatch the gankers. They then ignore the bumpers for 15 minutes who bump the target off the gate and away from the police spawn. They then respond to the second attempt, where the exact same gankers who attacked the first ship, reship, and right under the nose of the police then come back and kill their target. While I personally do not suicide gank, it is a valid game mechanic, and is part of the game. What is illogical is Concord ignoring the 15 minute entrapment between gank attempts, which is clearly, in this context, a criminal activity.
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
9230
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Posted - 2014.08.29 22:21:00 -
[3485] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:[ete]
I suggested that being a gank attempt victim should grant you 60 seconds of immunity from bumping, which is enough time for an at the keyboard capsuleer to align and warp off.
So you mean of you are fired upon then 60 srconds after firing you can freely alig n and warp?
Can you tell me how this eould BR exploited to no end biy freighter pilots and minors?
~ Please support a yellow jumpsuit for me (and everyone else). Thank you! ~ |
Anal Canal
The Conference Elite CODE.
64
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 22:23:00 -
[3486] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Because you should not need to use a webber or a scout to prevent criminal activity in highsec. The police should intervene, and take appropriate action against the offenders. That is what highsec is about. Appropriate actin requires criminal Flagg. Could you describe how the game wuld differentiat between accidenysl and intentional bumping? I'm sort am a bit inebriated but do not mind to discuss.
CHEERS MATE! The-áterminal end of the digestive system.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9330
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 22:23:00 -
[3487] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Because you should not need to use a webber or a scout to prevent criminal activity in highsec. The police should intervene, and take appropriate action against the offenders. That is what highsec is about.
Everything you just said is wrong.
Yes, you should have to bother to defend yourself, and you should have to have multiple people to defend against a large swarm of other players. No, CONCORD should not intervene, in fact they should not exist in the first place if you get right down to it. And no, that is not what highsec is about.
The sec levels are about NPC inflicted consequences for "criminal" activity. Highsec is about that consequence being the destruction of your ship. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of Eden
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 22:27:00 -
[3488] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Because you should not need to use a webber or a scout to prevent criminal activity in highsec. The police should intervene, and take appropriate action against the offenders. That is what highsec is about. Everything you just said is wrong. Yes, you should have to bother to defend yourself, and you should have to have multiple people to defend against a large swarm of other players. No, CONCORD should not intervene, in fact they should not exist in the first place if you get right down to it. And no, that is not what highsec is about. The sec levels are about NPC inflicted consequences for "criminal" activity. Highsec is about that consequence being the destruction of your ship.
I actually agree with you. "Criminal activity" in highsec should lead to the destruction of your ship. Entrapping another player's ship for 15 minutes so that successive waves of gankers can blow them up is criminal activity, and should lead to the loss of your ship.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9331
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 22:32:00 -
[3489] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote: I actually agree with you. "Criminal activity" in highsec should lead to the destruction of your ship. Entrapping another player's ship for 15 minutes so that successive waves of gankers can blow them up is criminal activity, and should lead to the loss of your ship.
Bumping is an aggression neutral act.
This is because CONCORD specifically reacts to the activation of offensive modules.
Absolutely zero of the requirements for CONCORD intervention are found in bumping. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of Eden
8
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Posted - 2014.08.29 22:42:00 -
[3490] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:[]
I actually agree with you. "Criminal activity" in highsec should lead to the destruction of your ship. Entrapping another player's ship for 15 minutes so that successive waves of gankers can blow them up is criminal activity, and should lead to the loss of your ship.
Could you answer my Q? Am trying to shoe you that what you are asking fot is impossible t o implement.. Any pilot can use an alt to shoot.them and giarantee align ang warp.
Yes - since in my view the bumping here is a criminal activity, it would not be an "exploit" for freighters or miners to self-gank as a way of avoiding bumping for 60 seconds. They would still be vulnerable to being shot, webbing, etc.... all the normal risk factors in high sec. They simply would not be subject to un-responded to entrapment allowing successive waves of gankers to hit them, in effect being warp scrambled without CONCORD response. |
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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1093
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Posted - 2014.08.29 22:43:00 -
[3491] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:What is illogical is Game design doesn't care about what is 'logical'. [witty image] - Stream |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24210
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 22:46:00 -
[3492] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:What my point is, is that in this context, specifically in between gank attempts from the same gankers waiting out their aggression timers, and where the bumping is exactly equivalent in nature to warp disruption/scrambling (which clearly is an activation of offensive modules, and I think you would agree rightfully carries a CONCORD response), the bumping is not "an agression neutral act," but rather is a positive aggressive act, and should see CONCORD dispatch the bumpers. GǪexcept that there is nothing aggressive or offensive about being bumped and it is shares none of the characteristics of warp disruption. After all, you can just warp off. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9332
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 22:47:00 -
[3493] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Given that this would be difficult to code, I have suggested an alternate option, specifically that ganking would grant a 60 second immunity to the target....which could not be "exploited" by freighters and miners, since by the bumping being inherently aggressive in this contest, they are rightfully able to avail themselves of a CONCORD reponse against it.
Ha ha ha, do you have even the slightest clue how the game's engine works?
I really think you don't, or you would not have typed out what I just quoted.
Here's a good example.
Each and every time they patch this game, there are some Player Own Stations (POS) in the game that "go Skynet", which means that their guns shoot at their allies.
CCP does not know why this happens, and it's random, but it happens with every major patch.
Now, the aggression and CONCORD mechanics are completely, 100% uncoupled from the physics engine.
Not only is it hilariously impossible to sync them together somehow, but that if they did, the bugs that would likely ensue would basically destroy the game. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of Eden
8
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Posted - 2014.08.29 22:56:00 -
[3494] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:What my point is, is that in this context, specifically in between gank attempts from the same gankers waiting out their aggression timers, and where the bumping is exactly equivalent in nature to warp disruption/scrambling (which clearly is an activation of offensive modules, and I think you would agree rightfully carries a CONCORD response), the bumping is not "an agression neutral act," but rather is a positive aggressive act, and should see CONCORD dispatch the bumpers. GǪexcept that there is nothing aggressive or offensive about being bumped and it is shares none of the characteristics of warp disruption. After all, you can just warp off.
The point was that the Orca, despite its best efforts, was unable to warp off. It turns out that a couple of bumpers, even with a 100% ideal response from the Orca, can render it unable to warp off the grid for the 15 minutes until the gankers can reship and try again. In this way it EXACTLY replicates the effect of warp scrambling/disruption, but does not carry a CONCORD response. Which is why bumping, in this, and only in this SPECIFIC context, would seem to clearly be an offensive/"criminal" activity. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9332
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 22:59:00 -
[3495] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote: The point was that the Orca, despite its best efforts, was unable to warp off.
And yet, it had several ways to escape that were not used. That was not it's "best efforts", it was absolutely nothing.
Quote: It turns out that a couple of bumpers, even with a 100% ideal response from the Orca, can render it unable to warp off the grid for the 15 minutes until the gankers can reship and try again. In this way it EXACTLY replicates the effect of warp scrambling/disruption, but does not carry a CONCORD response. Which is why bumping, in this, and only in this SPECIFIC context, would seem to clearly be an offensive/"criminal" activity.
Utterly false. As I said, there are a few things you can do in that situation, and the Orca did none of them.
You seem to think that "pressing the warp button a few more times" equates to actually trying to defend himself. It doesn't. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
6229
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 23:01:00 -
[3496] - Quote
At 137 pages, there are a lot of tears in this thread....
I feel slighted somehow for not being the cause of any of it.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of Eden
8
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Posted - 2014.08.29 23:05:00 -
[3497] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Veers Belvar wrote: The point was that the Orca, despite its best efforts, was unable to warp off.
And yet, it had several ways to escape that were not used. That was not it's "best efforts", it was absolutely nothing. Quote: It turns out that a couple of bumpers, even with a 100% ideal response from the Orca, can render it unable to warp off the grid for the 15 minutes until the gankers can reship and try again. In this way it EXACTLY replicates the effect of warp scrambling/disruption, but does not carry a CONCORD response. Which is why bumping, in this, and only in this SPECIFIC context, would seem to clearly be an offensive/"criminal" activity.
Utterly false. As I said, there are a few things you can do in that situation, and the Orca did none of them. You seem to think that "pressing the warp button a few more times" equates to actually trying to defend himself. It doesn't.
How should it have escaped....and saying bring friends is not an answer. If you get warp scrambled, do you need to bring friends? No. Why? Because CONCORD blows the scramblers up. So why, if subject to bumping, which in this context is exactly equivalent to warp scrambling, should the answer be to bring friends? Rather, when bumping exactly mimics warp scrambling, it should be responded to by CONCORD in the exact same way....meaning dispatching of the criminal offenders by CONCORD. There is absolutely no reason why CONCORD should help you if you get warp scrambled, but if you get bumped in such a way as to render you effectively warp scrambled, the answer should be go bring scouts/webbing friends. Would anyone say that if you get warp scrambled you should need to bring friends to kill the scrams while CONCORD dozes off? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9332
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 23:09:00 -
[3498] - Quote
Yes, "bring friends" is an answer.
It is THE answer.
If you are flying a ship that can't fit guns, solo, then you deserve whatever you get. CCP Falcon spelled that out pretty clearly. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20555
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 23:11:00 -
[3499] - Quote
:popcorn: The difference between a carebear and a bear is that one expects the world to revolve around them, the other accepts the world for what it is and works around it.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24210
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 23:11:00 -
[3500] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:The point was that the Orca, despite its best efforts, was unable to warp off. Then it was a very poor effort. An Orca, in particular, should never really find itself in a situation where it's getting bumped since they're so easy to get into warp if fitted properly.
And again, let's just ask for a second how on earth it managed to be stuck for 15 minutes GÇö that means the effort was so far from GÇ£bestGÇ¥ that GÇ£bestGÇ¥ doesn't even speak the same language as the word that would describe the effort.
Quote:In this way it EXACTLY replicates the effect of warp scrambling/disruption GǪagain, aside from the detail that it doesn't actually inhibit warping (or has any effect on MWDs) the way a scram or point does. Bumping is still not a criminal activity, in this context or any other, because nothing offensive is done to your ship. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
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Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
162
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Posted - 2014.08.29 23:26:00 -
[3501] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Veers Belvar wrote: The point was that the Orca, despite its best efforts, was unable to warp off.
And yet, it had several ways to escape that were not used. That was not it's "best efforts", it was absolutely nothing. Quote: It turns out that a couple of bumpers, even with a 100% ideal response from the Orca, can render it unable to warp off the grid for the 15 minutes until the gankers can reship and try again. In this way it EXACTLY replicates the effect of warp scrambling/disruption, but does not carry a CONCORD response. Which is why bumping, in this, and only in this SPECIFIC context, would seem to clearly be an offensive/"criminal" activity.
Utterly false. As I said, there are a few things you can do in that situation, and the Orca did none of them. You seem to think that "pressing the warp button a few more times" equates to actually trying to defend himself. It doesn't. How should it have escaped....and saying bring friends is not an answer. If you get warp scrambled, do you need to bring friends? No. Why? Because CONCORD blows the scramblers up. So why, if subject to bumping, which in this context is exactly equivalent to warp scrambling, should the answer be to bring friends? Rather, when bumping exactly mimics warp scrambling, it should be responded to by CONCORD in the exact same way....meaning dispatching of the criminal offenders by CONCORD. There is absolutely no reason why CONCORD should help you if you get warp scrambled, but if you get bumped in such a way as to render you effectively warp scrambled, the answer should be go bring scouts/webbing friends. Would anyone say that if you get warp scrambled you should need to bring friends to kill the scrams while CONCORD dozes off?
The corporation I joined more then a year and a half ago has this culture thing going about staying classy. I support this idea to the fullest. Your posts however makes it very difficult for me to adhere to this. Please, pretty please, with sugar on top ... make some sense when you post and support me eternal devotion to stay classy. |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
9257
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 03:13:00 -
[3502] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Yes - since in my view the bumping here is a criminal activity, it would not be an "exploit" for freighters or miners to self-gank as a way of avoiding bumping for 60 seconds. They would still be vulnerable to being shot, webbing, etc.... all the normal risk factors in high sec. They simply would not be subject to un-responded to entrapment allowing successive waves of gankers to hit them, in effect being warp scrambled without CONCORD response.
I'm sorry about earlier. I've eaten some food and feeling quite sober now.
Can you tell me what the difference is between these two scenarios:
#1: (1) Make no changes to existing mechanics (2) Use a webber alt to quickly align and warp
#2: (A) Make changes to mechanics with this unexplained 60 sec bump immunity post getting shot at (B) Use an alt to shoot yourself for bump immunity (C) Use a webber alt to avoid getting shot at by quickly aligning and warping out
I am not understanding the advantage #2 gives anyone. It seems like the Orca pilot should've avoided the system, or bring a webber if he chooses to enter the lion's den. ~ Please support a yellow jumpsuit for me (and everyone else). Thank you! ~ |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5990
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Posted - 2014.08.30 05:09:00 -
[3503] - Quote
Why should I have to scout ahead to see if the road is passable or bring a friend or webber alt to make myself uncatchable when I can just incessantly ***** & moan about gankers & my perceived opinion on how unfair it is that I can't just AFK faceroll past 10 players. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee & Grammar Gestapo. |
Kurosaki Rukia
Abysmal Gentlemen We Didn't Mean It
12
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Posted - 2014.08.30 05:36:00 -
[3504] - Quote
I've always wanted to help gank a freighter, empty or otherwise... :D
I did help awox one once though, it was named 'My Mobile Home' and within were contents that it looked like the pilot had been hoarding since around 2005.
Because I'm a douchebag I sent him the message "GF... Home sweet Home."
So in answer to the concerns of the original post;: No, it's not a problem. I'd definitely find time to fit it into my schedule. :D |
Jenni LaCroix
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2014.08.30 15:55:00 -
[3505] - Quote
suicide ganking was never a problem, the too many freighters in high sec are the problems |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24231
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Posted - 2014.08.31 01:56:00 -
[3506] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Preventing you from warping GǪisn't what it does. You can warp away just fine. It also doesn't shut down your MWDs or MJDs.
So it actually offers 0% of the capabilities of a scrambler. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of Eden
8
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Posted - 2014.08.31 01:56:00 -
[3507] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Thanks you for completely missing the point. Criminal activity, and unlawful entrapment is by definition criminal activity, should draw CONCORD response. GǪbut it's not entrapment (much less anything unlawful) since you can, you know, just go away. Quote:My point is that CCP is failing to follow it's own game design by not punishing unlawful entrapment (which every police force in the world would combat). Bad news: CONCORD is not a police force, and this is not Gǣthe worldGǥ. So your point makes no sense since you are asking CCP to follow a completely unrelated and irrelevant GǣdesignGǥ.
Actually, per CCP Falcon "CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive." So CONCORD is designed to act as a police force,
And, from what it seems, Orcas and freighters are actually unable to warp if 2-3 bumpers bump optimally (feel free to chime in on this. CCP Devs).
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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of Eden
8
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Posted - 2014.08.31 01:57:00 -
[3508] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Preventing you from warping GǪisn't what it does. You can warp away just fine.
Not if the bumpers make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to warp.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24231
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Posted - 2014.08.31 01:58:00 -
[3509] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Not if the bumpers make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to warp. They can't.
Quote:Actually, per CCP Falcon "CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive." So CONCORD is designed to act as a police force, No, it's designed to act as a cost enforcement mechanism. Per CCP Falcon, the only shared characteristic between CONCORD and a law enforcement agency is that it offers a deterrent. CONCORD does this by enforcing cost; police by threatening with judicial processing. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of Eden
8
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Posted - 2014.08.31 01:59:00 -
[3510] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Not if the bumpers make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to warp. They can't.
Certainly with 3 bumpers optimally bumping a freighter it is absolutely 100% impossible for that freighter to warp off. |
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