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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
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GM Lelouch
Game Masters C C P Alliance
97
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Posted - 2014.07.05 03:19:00 -
[1951] - Quote
Altessa Post wrote:The proposal to "report them" is silly. I do not have the data to prove a violation. In fact, it is impossible for me to prove a recycle. So, next time please try to suppress the Pavlovian urge of your culture ("You should sue them!").
I also do not like the speculation about what is illegal and how CCP goes against them. That is just guesswork. Until today, I did believe that alt recycling is not a common practice. Yet, after my observation in Niarja I have my doubt.
Can somebody from CCP comment whether you actually do investigate into alt recycling?
I'll keep this brief but yes, we do investigate alt character recycling and we do take offenses of this nature very seriously.
What we cannot do is manually monitor every PVP ship loss which occurs in EVE so we need you, our players, to file a report and let us know if you suspect foul play of this sort. Alt recycling is not very common these days but it still does happen from time to time. Please do file a ticket including all the information you have concerning this loss, we'd be happy to look into it for you.
Alt recycling is verifiable in our logs and it will have consequences for the player's main account(s) too, if disposable accounts are used for this purpose.
One final clarification: Alt recycling is defined as the act of using a disposable character/account to perform actions which carry negative consequences within the game and then recycling (biomassing) the character to bypass said consequences and starting all over again with a new character.
1. Using an alt account to suicide gank and then farming up security status once it drops too low? This is totally okay with us. 2. Using an alt account to suicide gank and then deleting the character and replacing it with a new one once security status drops too low? This is not okay.
Hmm, I guess this post didn't end up being as brief as I intended but I hope you all found this post informative. Best regards, Lead GM Lelouch CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514 |
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Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
57
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Posted - 2014.07.05 04:06:00 -
[1952] - Quote
GM Lelouch wrote: One final clarification: Alt recycling is defined as the act of using a disposable character/account to perform actions which carry negative consequences within the game and then recycling (biomassing) the character to bypass said consequences and starting all over again with a new character.
1. Using an alt account to suicide gank and then farming up security status once it drops too low? This is totally okay with us. 2. Using an alt account to suicide gank and then deleting the character and replacing it with a new one once security status drops too low? This is not okay.
I am a little confused. Of what benefit is deleting the character with the low status (but with PvP skills) when you have to make a completely new character to replace him? Wouldn't the loss of a skilled character be a hindrance?
I have done something like that with my mining characters. I gave a brand new character the isk and other assets owned by an established character (this is the established one), then retired the established character to the forum. I have given new characters the assets of more established characters before biomassing the older characters, tho. I have even stated multiple times in the forum I had done this and no one raised any alarms about 'recycling'.
Wouldn't the loss of skills be considered a problem for PvP? My confusion is basically because I avoid PvP, I admit. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2818
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 04:45:00 -
[1953] - Quote
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
I am a little confused. Of what benefit is deleting the character with the low status (but with PvP skills) when you have to make a completely new character to replace him? Wouldn't the loss of a skilled character be a hindrance?
The skill level needed to fly a destroyer for the goal of suicide ganking is very low, and can be obtained in a very short time. No, it is not a hindrance.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12240
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 04:46:00 -
[1954] - Quote
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:GM Lelouch wrote: One final clarification: Alt recycling is defined as the act of using a disposable character/account to perform actions which carry negative consequences within the game and then recycling (biomassing) the character to bypass said consequences and starting all over again with a new character.
1. Using an alt account to suicide gank and then farming up security status once it drops too low? This is totally okay with us. 2. Using an alt account to suicide gank and then deleting the character and replacing it with a new one once security status drops too low? This is not okay.
I am a little confused. Of what benefit is deleting the character with the low status (but with PvP skills) when you have to make a completely new character to replace him? Wouldn't the loss of a skilled character be a hindrance? I have done something like that with my mining characters. I gave a brand new character the isk and other assets owned by an established character (this is the established one), then retired the established character to the forum. I have given new characters the assets of more established characters before biomassing the older characters, tho. I have even stated multiple times in the forum I had done this and no one raised any alarms about 'recycling'. Wouldn't the loss of skills be considered a problem for PvP? My confusion is basically because I avoid PvP, I admit.
It will take more time to retrain the lost skillpoints than to simply go grind up your sec status. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5433
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 04:47:00 -
[1955] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:baltec1 wrote:
If you think they are recycling then report them.
I should imagine it is more a case of Disposable account. It takes what 3 weeks to create a gank char? That leaves a month if subbed that account. to go ganking. When sub runs out. stop using account and sub the next one. Maybe it is too much tinfoil, but definitely a possibility.
So you don't actually know for sure, but are just speculating in hopes that CCP will go & ban a bunch of people at your whim. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2818
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:02:00 -
[1956] - Quote
GM Lelouch; Although avoiding consequences by alt recycling is not allowed, there is another way to avoid the consequences of suicide ganking that currently is allowed. My question: Should it be allowed? Players are getting around the entire "actions have consequences" basis of Eve. What are they doing?
They dedicate an alt to suicide ganking, and never bother fixing the low standings. Thus, the standing hit ceases to be a consequence. The entire system made by CCP is rendered irrelevant. Doing this violates no rule, but should the game really work that way? I propose a change:
One: If you are -5 or less, and; Have a criminal flag, and; lay the final blow on a ship, then; The insurance payout for that ship comes from your wallet.
Two: If you are -5 or less, and; have a negative wallet, then; You may not board, activate, or undock any ship bigger than a shuttle. Reason: All larger ships have a crew, and no crew will work for a criminal who has no money.
Will this stop suicide ganking? No, of course not. But it will return us to "actions have consequences". http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22845
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:05:00 -
[1957] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:They dedicate an alt to suicide ganking, and never bother fixing the low standings. Thus, the standing hit ceases to be a consequence. Eh, how does that remove the consequence (i.e. having low standings)?
Quote:Will this stop suicide ganking? No, of course not. But it will return us to "actions have consequences". How do you return to a state you're already at? Actions already have consequences.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12240
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:07:00 -
[1958] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:GM Lelouch; Although avoiding consequences by alt recycling is not allowed, there is another way to avoid the consequences of suicide ganking that currently is allowed. My question: Should it be allowed? Players are getting around the entire "actions have consequences" basis of Eve. What are they doing?
They dedicate an alt to suicide ganking, and never bother fixing the low standings. Thus, the standing hit ceases to be a consequence. The entire system made by CCP is rendered irrelevant. Doing this violates no rule, but should the game really work that way? I propose a change:
One: If you are -5 or less, and; Have a criminal flag, and; lay the final blow on a ship, then; The insurance payout for that ship comes from your wallet.
Two: If you are -5 or less, and; have a negative wallet, then; You may not board, activate, or undock any ship bigger than a shuttle. Reason: All larger ships have a crew, and no crew will work for a criminal who has no money.
Will this stop suicide ganking? No, of course not. But it will return us to "actions have consequences".
CCP, stop pvp pilots from pvping in this pvp game.
That is literally what you just said. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5382
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:09:00 -
[1959] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote: One: If you are -5 or less, and; Have a criminal flag, and; lay the final blow on a ship, then; The insurance payout for that ship comes from your wallet.
Two: If you are -5 or less, and; have a negative wallet, then; You may not board, activate, or undock any ship bigger than a shuttle. Reason: All larger ships have a crew, and no crew will work for a criminal who has no money.
The simple solution is to just have Concord blow up any -10 pods in high sec.
There's no good reason for the system we have now. The one where ganking has no consequences of any consequence.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22845
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:13:00 -
[1960] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:The simple solution is to just have Concord blow up any -10 pods in high sec. Why would they do that?
Quote:There's no good reason for the system we have now. The one where ganking has no consequences of any consequence. GǪexcept, of course, that it has plenty of consequences and that there's no good reason to change it other than to maybe make ganks a bit more common so that flying stupidly has more consequences of consequence. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5383
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:19:00 -
[1961] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:The simple solution is to just have Concord blow up any -10 pods in high sec. Why would they do that? Quote:There's no good reason for the system we have now. The one where ganking has no consequences of any consequence. GǪexcept, of course, that it has plenty of consequences and that there's no good reason to change it other than to maybe make ganks a bit more common so that flying stupidly has more consequences of consequence.
LOL! Two sentences.
Is there any post that is too small for you to break into multiple quotes? I bet if I looked hard enough I'd find one where you did it with a two word post.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1934
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:31:00 -
[1962] - Quote
Alts nullify any and all consequences of -10.
What inconvenience, you can't mine in highsec with your -10 anymore? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22846
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:33:00 -
[1963] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Is there any post that is too small for you to break into multiple quotes? Yes, one that only has a single point to respond to.
Could you please answer the question? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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GM Lelouch
Game Masters C C P Alliance
97
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:41:00 -
[1964] - Quote
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:GM Lelouch wrote: One final clarification: Alt recycling is defined as the act of using a disposable character/account to perform actions which carry negative consequences within the game and then recycling (biomassing) the character to bypass said consequences and starting all over again with a new character.
1. Using an alt account to suicide gank and then farming up security status once it drops too low? This is totally okay with us. 2. Using an alt account to suicide gank and then deleting the character and replacing it with a new one once security status drops too low? This is not okay.
I am a little confused. Of what benefit is deleting the character with the low status (but with PvP skills) when you have to make a completely new character to replace him? Wouldn't the loss of a skilled character be a hindrance? I have done something like that with my mining characters. I gave a brand new character the isk and other assets owned by an established character (this is the established one), then retired the established character to the forum. I have given new characters the assets of more established characters before biomassing the older characters, tho. I have even stated multiple times in the forum I had done this and no one raised any alarms about 'recycling'. Wouldn't the loss of skills be considered a problem for PvP? My confusion is basically because I avoid PvP, I admit.
Alt recycling abuse is generally done with specific ships in mind which are quick and easy to train for yet have a comparably high alpha strike (destroyers). They're pretty quick to train for and a "serious" abuser usually has multiple alt accounts cycling in such a way that a new batch of disposable characters is in training while the current batch is in use. When Batch A's sec status gets too low, Batch B will be fully trained and ready to use. Once Batch B is used up, the replacement characters for Batch A are ready for use. If all this seems like more effort than it is worth, it is because it really is more effort than it is worth, unless you like having your main accounts suspended
All that being said, alt recycling really is not a common problem these days. We don't see very many tickets anymore where the reported player actually was recycling alts. It was much more common back when newly created characters started with more SP after character creation. Back then there were setups which practically had you in destroyers right after character creation. Best regards, Lead GM Lelouch CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514 |
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Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1934
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:48:00 -
[1965] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Is there any post that is too small for you to break into multiple quotes? Yes, one that only has a single point to respond to. Could you please answer the question? And to elaborate: why on earth should NPCs take over a job that players are meant to do? Sentamon wrote:Alts nullify any and all consequences of -10. How do alts keep your character from being blown up before it can do what it was trying to do?
To do ... what? ... mine, run missions? No they don't, but for their main function in highsec, to gank, then yes they do.
All the important parts of a gank are done with alts and with no consequences at all. (Equipping, Scouting, Scanning, Bumping). The last and final part is elementary. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7582
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:50:00 -
[1966] - Quote
Sentamon wrote: All the important parts of a gank are done with alts and with no consequences at all. (Equipping, Scouting, Scanning, Bumping). The last and final part is elementary.
And? Mechanical consequences are inflicted on a per character basis. You can stomp your feet about alts all you want, but they are an integral part of EVE, and they're not going away now. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12240
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 05:50:00 -
[1967] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Tippia wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Is there any post that is too small for you to break into multiple quotes? Yes, one that only has a single point to respond to. Could you please answer the question? And to elaborate: why on earth should NPCs take over a job that players are meant to do? Sentamon wrote:Alts nullify any and all consequences of -10. How do alts keep your character from being blown up before it can do what it was trying to do? To do ... what? ... mine, run missions? No they don't, but for their main function in highsec, to gank, then yes they do. All the important parts of a gank are done with alts and with no consequences at all. (Equipping, Scouting, Scanning, Bumping). The last and final part is elementary.
And?
We have tens of thousands of alts for supplying nullsec to avoid wardecs too. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22847
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:00:00 -
[1968] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:To do ... what? Whatever it is they're trying to do with the character.
Quote:No they don't, but for their main function in highsec, to gank, then yes they do.
All the important parts of a gank are done with alts and with no consequences at all. (Equipping, Scouting, Scanning, Bumping). The last and final part is elementary. GǪand how do alts keep the character from being blown up before he can do what he's trying to do?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1934
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:01:00 -
[1969] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: And?
We have tens of thousands of alts for supplying nullsec to avoid wardecs too.
... and we need to quit talking like there are meaningful consequences for ganking in highsec. There are none.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1934
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:04:00 -
[1970] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sentamon wrote:To do ... what? Whatever it is they're trying to do with the character. Quote:No they don't, but for their main function in highsec, to gank, then yes they do.
All the important parts of a gank are done with alts and with no consequences at all. (Equipping, Scouting, Scanning, Bumping). The last and final part is elementary. GǪand how do alts keep the character from being blown up before he can do what he's trying to do?
Because getting your cheap suicide ship blown up actually means something. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7582
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:04:00 -
[1971] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:baltec1 wrote: And?
We have tens of thousands of alts for supplying nullsec to avoid wardecs too.
... and we need to quit talking like there are meaningful consequences for ganking in highsec. There are none.
Yes, there are.
The fact that they can be mitigated by smart gameplay and sane target selection does not mean they don't exist.
And the fact that people still, after a decade of it going on, refuse to defend themselves is not indicative of a problem. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22847
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:04:00 -
[1972] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:... and we need to quit talking like there are meaningful consequences for ganking in highsec. There are none. If that's true, then it's only because you fail in your duty to provide them. At any rate, your claim falls apart as soon as we subject it to the current reality and mechanics of EVE. There are plenty of consequences to ganking in highsec and they are very obviously meaningful or ganks would not be so laughably rare. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12241
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:06:00 -
[1973] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:baltec1 wrote: And?
We have tens of thousands of alts for supplying nullsec to avoid wardecs too.
... and we need to quit talking like there are meaningful consequences for ganking in highsec. There are none.
Aside from the fact that at -10 you are open to attack from everyone, gate and station guns open fire on you and cannot stay in any place longer then 30 seconds or have the faction navy warp in and kill you. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite CODE.
636
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:06:00 -
[1974] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:baltec1 wrote:
If you think they are recycling then report them.
I should imagine it is more a case of Disposable account. It takes what 3 weeks to create a gank char? That leaves a month if subbed that account. to go ganking. When sub runs out. stop using account and sub the next one. Maybe it is too much tinfoil, but definitely a possibility.
Not really. 3 weeks will result in a pretty sub-par gank character.
I have spent over 3 months training every skill that can affect the ganking potential of the Catalyst and truthfully, I need another month or two before I can say I have really finished "mastering" it.
I've never known anyone to recycle gank characters in order to avoid security status (if it's a dedicated ganking character, there's really zero point) - it's so trivial to fix. Drop a few hundred million on clone tags or head out to NPC null and ishtar all of the things.
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DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite CODE.
636
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:13:00 -
[1975] - Quote
Sentamon wrote: ... and we need to quit talking like there are meaningful consequences for ganking in highsec. There are none.
baltec1 wrote: Aside from the fact that at -10 you are open to attack from everyone and cannot stay in any place longer then 30 seconds or have the faction navy warp in and kill you.
I think that the OP meant to say that there are no meaningful consequences for ganking that he understands or has taken the time to read about :-(
Sentamon, beyond not being able to stay on any drive for longer then about 30 seconds, every single gank results in a kill right on you. For example: DJentropy has HUNDREDS of kill rights, many of them open to everyone for 0 isk. Now, as a -10 character that really does not matter very much, but it denies me the ability to buy some clone tags and repair my sec status - as people will just activate the kill right and pew pew pew. Sure, I can use an alt to clear those 0 ISK kill rights. One at a time. Every 15 mins. Looking over my list here and grabbing the trusty calculator - I'd need to devote about 204 hours of RL time to clear all my 0 ISK kill rights. Then, I could move onto the ones that I would have to pay ISK for - and I don't even want to do the math on that.
I'm sorry you don't see any consequences - but as one who has done a gank or two in his time, I can assure you the amount of time and ISK that would be required for me to return to the state before I ever ganked anything would be amazing. As in, tens of billions of ISK and many many many hours of effort.
Also there is the whole thing about everyone in the game being able to shoot me at any given time anywhere. That feels like a bit of a consequence to me. :-) |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1934
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:15:00 -
[1976] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Sentamon wrote:baltec1 wrote: And?
We have tens of thousands of alts for supplying nullsec to avoid wardecs too.
... and we need to quit talking like there are meaningful consequences for ganking in highsec. There are none. Aside from the fact that at -10 you are open to attack from everyone, gate and station guns open fire on you and cannot stay in any place longer then 30 seconds or have the faction navy warp in and kill you.
Tell us how everyone can attack them while they sit in 100% safe stations while their high security alts do all the important work? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12244
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:18:00 -
[1977] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Tell us how everyone can attack them while they sit in 100% safe stations while their high security alts do all the important work?
Remind us again how you gank people without undocking. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite CODE.
640
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:18:00 -
[1978] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Tell us how everyone can attack them while they sit in 100% safe stations while their high security alts do all the important work?
Ummm, using alts to avoid combat or bad situations for another character is like - man, that's not a "ganking" thing - that's like - a welcome to EVE sort of thing.
What's the solution? Ban alts? Somehow I don't think CCP is going to go down that road. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7588
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:19:00 -
[1979] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Tell us how everyone can attack them while they sit in 100% safe stations while their high security alts do all the important work?
Of course they sit in stations, the 100% chance of faction police prevents anything else. Just like every other boring, binary, immersion breaking magic space police mechanic, it just cuts out real player interaction to handhold the crybabies.
The point, by the way, is that you are free to attack them, without any consequences to you I might add, when they are flying from gate to gate, or on their way to a gank, or in the middle of a gank to spoil it.
That is not "zero consequences". That's just consequences that other players fail to visit on them. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite CODE.
640
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 06:19:00 -
[1980] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Sentamon wrote:Tell us how everyone can attack them while they sit in 100% safe stations while their high security alts do all the important work? Remind us again how you gank people without undocking.
I tend to just sit in station and offer to double their ISK if they present evidence of self-destruction. It's super effective xD |
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