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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
Kal Murmur
Lazortits
0
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Posted - 2014.07.07 16:57:00 -
[2161] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Kal Murmur wrote:
Red Frog don't lose many freighters. Given that we were looking at the numbers for only the Charon, it's hardly that surprising that they didn't lose any during the month of June, given how low their total losses are.
So why are they immune from your Ganking Epidemic?
They aren't immune, as those figures showed despite their great record of safe hauling even they have seen a sizeable increase in losses.
Tippia wrote:GǪand you asked me to point out the problem(s) with your data. If you want some from 2012 or earlier, you have to ask CCP, reallyGǪ
So basically the only proof you'll accept is the proof you know we can't get? |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5998
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 16:59:00 -
[2162] - Quote
Kal Murmur wrote:
They aren't immune, as those figures showed despite their great record of safe hauling even they have seen a sizeable increase in losses.
What?
You posted figures for June for (what I assume you meant to show) a huge number of Charon losses, but in that exact same timeframe Red Frog lost no ships other than cyno ships.
So, where is this sizeable increase?
Its not in the timeframe you quoted "Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á- CCP Falcon
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
22967
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Posted - 2014.07.07 17:00:00 -
[2163] - Quote
Kal Murmur wrote:So basically the only proof you'll accept is the proof you know we can't get? No, the proof I'll accept is something that has a unified and verifiable source GÇö if you get a hold of a stast wonk at CCP, they will happily give you the numbers before 2013.
And again, are we looking at the same Red Frog? Because what I'm seeing doesn't match what you're saying. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5437
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:01:00 -
[2164] - Quote
As far as I'm aware, courier companies use independents (as in, not in the same corp) for the sole reason of protecting their ships.
Their real loses wouldn't be reflected accurately on any kill stats site.
But keep making **** up and then arguing over it like it's has any relevance whatsoever. Without all the total crap posting, this thread would have died after three pages.
Carry on, good people.
Ed~ De'Veldrin beat me to it. I need to learn to type faster.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3549
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:02:00 -
[2165] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Tippia wrote:Kal Murmur wrote:I was asked to provide data from zkillboard or eve kill, I did so. If you can suggest a more reliable killboard we can use, then feel free to do so. GǪand you asked me to point out the problem(s) with your data. If you want some from 2012 or earlier, you have to ask CCP, reallyGǪ Quote:Red Frog don't lose many freighters. Given that we were looking at the numbers for only the Charon, it's hardly that surprising that they didn't lose any during the month of June, given how low their total losses are. EhmGǪ are we looking at the same Red Frog? Honestly, I was under the impression that all of Red Frog's Freighters were NPC alts anyway (to avoid war dec issues). So the kill board wouldn't be an accurate place to asess those numbers - you'd need to look at their internal reimbursement numbers. correct, the alts are also anonymous. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Unleashed Pestilence
794
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:05:00 -
[2166] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:I should start flying freighters or ganking freighters. I have nothing to contribute to one of the better threadnaughts of the year. I recommend flying orcas full of gank ships. That way it can be especially ironic if you are ganked. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3549
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:07:00 -
[2167] - Quote
Kal Murmur wrote:Tippia wrote:Kal Murmur wrote:Source is zkillboard. You mean the killboard that has no accurate stats for 2012 and earlier and which very obviously includes lots of non-ganks? I was asked to provide data from zkillboard or eve kill, I did so. If you can suggest a more reliable killboard we can use, then feel free to do so. i wasn't aware reliable killboard stats didn't go back very far vOv the numbers you've provided from that source are not really valid due to the concerns jonah and tip've raised anyway |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
5999
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:10:00 -
[2168] - Quote
What was the point again?
Its been somewhat lost in the KB waving
Oh yeah, you dont like people RPing in an RPG, right , gotcha
"Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á- CCP Falcon
|
Kal Murmur
Lazortits
0
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Posted - 2014.07.07 17:14:00 -
[2169] - Quote
Absolutely agree that given Red Frogs use of alts, their numbers won't have any relevance to this discussion.
As for the reliability or otherwise of zkillboards stats, I just used what I was challenged to use. If someone from CCP wants to chime in with more accurate figures that would be great, but otherwise I can only go on the data we have available. It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7646
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:14:00 -
[2170] - Quote
So, the data you posted about freighters just reinforces that your data source is incomplete. And your methods are deeply, deeply flawed. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7649
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:16:00 -
[2171] - Quote
Kal Murmur wrote: It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for.
What's amusing to me is that you think there were less than six hundred suicide ganks for the entire year of 2009. That disqualifies your entire set of data by itself. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3550
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:21:00 -
[2172] - Quote
Kal Murmur wrote:Absolutely agree that given Red Frogs use of alts, their numbers won't have any relevance to this discussion.
As for the reliability or otherwise of zkillboards stats, I just used what I was challenged to use. If someone from CCP wants to chime in with more accurate figures that would be great, but otherwise I can only go on the data we have available. It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for. 'people'? i said i thought it was a good source, you provided numbers that weren't relevant, and people other than me questioned the accuracy of the source. don't go accusing people of discounting data solely because they don't like it when they have given good reasons it might be invalid. it's a fallacy and it's a dishonesty on your part. |
Organic Lager
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
64
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:22:00 -
[2173] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Interesting....
According to the same KB Red Frog hasnt lost a single freighter in that time frame
Which is odd, as statistically you think that as high users of them, they would be garunteed to have lost at least one
Hmm perhaps theres something amiss here...
I do believe Red Frog pilots fly under npc corps to avoid war decs. I assume that would be why it shows no losses. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
6000
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:28:00 -
[2174] - Quote
Organic Lager wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Interesting....
According to the same KB Red Frog hasnt lost a single freighter in that time frame
Which is odd, as statistically you think that as high users of them, they would be garunteed to have lost at least one
Hmm perhaps theres something amiss here... I do believe Red Frog pilots fly under npc corps to avoid war decs. I assume that would be why it shows no losses.
Well as you are the third person now to say that, I guess it makes you the lucky winner
I assume that many do, but equally I have seen RF freighters on many occassions too
And there are Freighter losses on their KB, though from earlier than the timeframe I was talking about. "Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á- CCP Falcon
|
Organic Lager
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
64
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:31:00 -
[2175] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kal Murmur wrote: It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for. What's amusing to me is that you think there were less than six hundred suicide ganks for the entire year of 2009. That disqualifies your entire set of data by itself.
Even if you drop out anything earlier then 2012 do to unreliability there is still a huge trend upwards with each year doubling its predecessor. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
19513
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:33:00 -
[2176] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Honestly, I was under the impression that all of Red Frog's Freighters were NPC alts anyway (to avoid war dec issues). So the kill board wouldn't be an accurate place to asess those numbers - you'd need to look at their internal reimbursement numbers. The closest you'll get is their [url=http://red-frog.org[/url] annual reports.
They failed 194 highsec contracts in 2012, of which 89 (~45%) were down suicide ganks spread over 25+ freighters. Assuming the same percentage for suicide gank losses for 2013, out of the 260 highsec contracts that failed 117(ish) were down to suicide ganks.
Between the 2012 annual report and the 2013 annual report, contracts issued to them went 110290 to 223414 contracts, their losses in 2013 accounted for less than 0.12% of issued contracts, in 2012 it was closer to 0.17%*.
TL;DR their trade has increased, the risk of losing a freighter to a suicide gank appears to have gone down despite this.
*My maths may be a little off, I'd appreciate if someone would double check.
Nil mortifi sine lucre |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
6000
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:40:00 -
[2177] - Quote
Organic Lager wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kal Murmur wrote: It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for. What's amusing to me is that you think there were less than six hundred suicide ganks for the entire year of 2009. That disqualifies your entire set of data by itself. Even if you drop out anything earlier then 2012 do to unreliability there is still a huge trend upwards with each year doubling its predecessor. Edit: 2014 is actually on pace to triple 2013
And yet those of us who dont see an epidemic report no increased ganking chance, and anyone who does see an epidemic has yet to say whether they have been ganked or suffered more ganks than they remember from the past.
oh wait there was that one guy I talked to a while back in this thread, he said he could AFK mine with no problem, so the gankers were of no consequence to him, but ganking should be nerfed anyway "Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á- CCP Falcon
|
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Unleashed Pestilence
797
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:41:00 -
[2178] - Quote
Kal Murmur wrote:The game always encouraged people to move out to low / null, that's why the rewards for doing so are so much higher. At the same time people have always been able to stay if they are willing to accept lower rewards and grind. I've just come back after a break and being an industrialist in high sec has become a lot harder in my absence. Freighters are much less safe, mining is a lot less safe. If you're a ganker that that's awesome news, you get to have lots more fun. If you're an industrialist that's really bad news, and you're going to have a lot less fun. Huh, during your long absence you must have missed the multitude of barge buffs, freighter ehp buffs, jump freighter ehp buffs, Industrial buffs, mtu bug and later fix, and crimewatch nerfs.
To fill you in, barges and exhumers and more ehp, freighters have more ehp plus options to fit in different manners for even more. The arc can reach 700K ehp requiring between 35 and 70 players to gank. Industrials recieved more diversified roles, with a significant buff to deep space transports and blockade runners (admittedly the blockade runner change doesn't affect high sec much). Crimewatch removed canflipping from the game entirely, and significantly simplified the reprecussions for illegal actions in high sec, almost universally to griefer's detriment, and gave players a safety setting to protect their ship from concord. Finally, the only buff to our playstyle in recent memory, the mtu drone agression mechanics, was removed from the game three months after introduction.
So, yes, high sec is more dangerous than ever. *rolls eyes*
Kal Murmur wrote: Highsec always did support a diverse array of playstyles. The current gank epidemic just reduces that diversity by making some professions increasingly boring to the point where people just can't be bothered any more. The sad thing is that if it drives away subs CCP will inevitably nerf ganking more, and that will really suck. It's just a shame that people can't do things in moderation instead of everyone jumping on whatever bandwagon happens to be rolling past at the moment.
Ganking does not remove a single play style from the game. People can still mine, they just need to be careful. People can still haul, they just need to be careful, people can still mission, they just need to be careful. Please let us know what playstyles have been removed from the game.
I'll help you out. Ninja Salvaging for profit, can flipping, and MTU baiting (admittedly this last one should never have existed in the first place.) New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
Organic Lager
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
65
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:44:00 -
[2179] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Organic Lager wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kal Murmur wrote: It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for. What's amusing to me is that you think there were less than six hundred suicide ganks for the entire year of 2009. That disqualifies your entire set of data by itself. Even if you drop out anything earlier then 2012 do to unreliability there is still a huge trend upwards with each year doubling its predecessor. Edit: 2014 is actually on pace to triple 2013 And yet those of us who dont see an epidemic report no increased ganking chance, and anyone who does see an epidemic has yet to say whether they have been ganked or suffered more ganks than they remember from the past. oh wait there was that one guy I talked to a while back in this thread, he said he could AFK mine with no problem, so the gankers were of no consequence to him, but ganking should be nerfed anyway
From my personal experiance I'm happy to report ganking is down. Only 99,998 players left to poll. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Unleashed Pestilence
797
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:46:00 -
[2180] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:De'Veldrin wrote:Honestly, I was under the impression that all of Red Frog's Freighters were NPC alts anyway (to avoid war dec issues). So the kill board wouldn't be an accurate place to asess those numbers - you'd need to look at their internal reimbursement numbers. The closest you'll get is their annual reports.They failed 194 highsec contracts in 2012, of which 89 (~45%) were suicide ganks spread over 25+ freighters. Assuming the same percentage for suicide gank losses for 2013, out of the 260 highsec contracts that failed 117(ish) were suicide ganks. Between the 2012 annual report and the 2013 annual report, contracts issued to them went from 110290 to 223414 contracts. Their losses in 2013 accounted for less than 0.12% of issued contracts, in 2012 it was closer to 0.17%*. TL;DR Red Frogs's trade has increased, the risk of losing a freighter to a suicide gank appears to have gone down despite this. *0.12% is their own figure. My maths may be a little off with the 0.17%, I'd appreciate if someone would double check. I'm very interested in the 2014 figures. CODE. only started freighter ganking this year. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
6000
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:47:00 -
[2181] - Quote
Organic Lager wrote:
From my personal experiance I'm happy to report ganking is down. Only 99,998 players left to poll.
So, you would be inclined to the view that there is no Ganking Epidemic yourself, then?
"Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á- CCP Falcon
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
19517
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:47:00 -
[2182] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:De'Veldrin wrote:Honestly, I was under the impression that all of Red Frog's Freighters were NPC alts anyway (to avoid war dec issues). So the kill board wouldn't be an accurate place to asess those numbers - you'd need to look at their internal reimbursement numbers. The closest you'll get is their annual reports.They failed 194 highsec contracts in 2012, of which 89 (~45%) were suicide ganks spread over 25+ freighters. Assuming the same percentage for suicide gank losses for 2013, out of the 260 highsec contracts that failed 117(ish) were suicide ganks. Between the 2012 annual report and the 2013 annual report, contracts issued to them went from 110290 to 223414 contracts. Their losses in 2013 accounted for less than 0.12% of issued contracts, in 2012 it was closer to 0.17%*. TL;DR Red Frogs's trade has increased, the risk of losing a freighter to a suicide gank appears to have gone down despite this. *0.12% is their own figure. My maths may be a little off with the 0.17%, I'd appreciate if someone would double check. I'm very interested in the 2014 figures. CODE. only started freighter ganking this year. Indeed, should be interesting.
Nil mortifi sine lucre |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5441
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:54:00 -
[2183] - Quote
Why are people trying to justify CCP being anti gank or pro miner by talking about the barge buff?
Buffing something from wet paper to wet cardboard might make for good press but really it's a gank buff since it provided a false sense of security for miners. Sure, you need to add an extra dessie to your squad, but is that really a high price to pay for such a target rich environment full of miners flush with the overconfidence that CCP gave them with their fake buff?
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Organic Lager
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
65
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:57:00 -
[2184] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Organic Lager wrote:
From my personal experiance I'm happy to report ganking is down. Only 99,998 players left to poll.
So, you would be inclined to the view that there is no Ganking Epidemic yourself, then?
Absolutly, from a personal perspective ganking is down. But those numbers, man that is a tough one to explain away, especially 2013 and 2014, really wish we had more data. Be interesting what the final year tally comes out to and if the gankers can continue to improve into 2015. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Unleashed Pestilence
797
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 18:01:00 -
[2185] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Why are people trying to justify CCP being anti gank or pro miner by talking about the barge buff? Buffing something from wet paper to wet cardboard might make for good press but really it's a gank buff since it provided a false sense of security for miners. Sure, you need to add an extra dessie to your squad, but is that really a high price to pay for such a target rich environment full of miners flush with the overconfidence that CCP gave them with their fake buff? Mr Epeen Oh, I never claimed that ccp is anti-ganker or pro-miner. They're completely neutral . I was pointing out that the statement, "Freighters are much less safe, mining is a lot less safe" is blatantly false.
Keep in mind that an additional destroyer is usually the different between profitable and losing money. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2475
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 18:07:00 -
[2186] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
TL;DR Red Frogs's trade has increased, the risk of losing a freighter to a suicide gank appears to have gone down despite this.
Honestly, it's hard to draw that conclusion, since we don't have any idea of the actual numbers of contracts that were lost (as opposed to failed for some other reason) and what percentage of those were lost to ganks as opposed to awox/stupidity. All we can really say for sure is that RF got better at performing their core business - getting boxes from here to there without losing them. MAMBA is recruiting. -áWhen other folks are whining about a lack of content, we go out and create it. The case of Shrodinger's Hotdropper |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
6001
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 18:08:00 -
[2187] - Quote
Organic Lager wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Organic Lager wrote:
From my personal experiance I'm happy to report ganking is down. Only 99,998 players left to poll.
So, you would be inclined to the view that there is no Ganking Epidemic yourself, then? Absolutly, from a personal perspective ganking is down. But those numbers, man that is a tough one to explain away, especially 2013 and 2014, really wish we had more data. Be interesting what the final year tally comes out to and if the gankers can continue to improve into 2015.
I agree with your point of view in regards to these things.
Ganking SHOULD be down because after ten years you would think it would be common knowledge not to park a tincan in the open without defenses. But apparently, that is "unfair" and "lame" and "wrong" to think that folk might want to actually look after their investments.
Im just so tired of the "gankers are bad people and they pick on people who cant defend themselves" attitude some people have and my point of view in regards to this thread is; if you dont look after yourself, you deserve what you get.
I have NEVER seen anything in EvE, in any release, note, speech, patch, press announcement or Dev comment in a thread that has ever said anything different. "Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á- CCP Falcon
|
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
6001
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 18:09:00 -
[2188] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote: All we can really say for sure is that RF got better at performing their core business - getting boxes from here to there without losing them.
And unless they are in with the oooh Null Cartels and the CCPluminati, then they are only doing what everyone else can easily do too; flying smart "Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á- CCP Falcon
|
De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2476
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 18:18:00 -
[2189] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:De'Veldrin wrote: All we can really say for sure is that RF got better at performing their core business - getting boxes from here to there without losing them. And unless they are in with the oooh Null Cartels and the CCPluminati, then they are only doing what everyone else can easily do too; flying smart
I concur. When I was running logistics for EICo (RIP) I think we lost one freighter out of a hundred or so runs that I was responsible for - we used escorts, webbers, logi, ECM frigates, and scouts to help protect them. The one freighter we did lose was because the pilot decided to YOLO his way through Niarja with a juicy cargo.
In fact, funny story, we lost more webbers than we did freighters because I constantly let the duel timer expire (accidentally) and would then get concorded for webbing the freighter.
The first time it was funny...after that it became annoying to lose rapiers. MAMBA is recruiting. -áWhen other folks are whining about a lack of content, we go out and create it. The case of Shrodinger's Hotdropper |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
19519
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 18:18:00 -
[2190] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
TL;DR Red Frogs's trade has increased, the risk of losing a freighter to a suicide gank appears to have gone down despite this.
Honestly, it's hard to draw that conclusion, since we don't have any idea of the actual numbers of contracts that were lost (as opposed to failed for some other reason) and what percentage of those were lost to ganks as opposed to awox/stupidity. All we can really say for sure is that RF got better at performing their core business - getting boxes from here to there without losing them. True enough, hence "appears to have", which relates to the assumption that percentage of failed contracts related to suicide ganking remained constant. Red Frog didn't include the rate of losses due to suicide ganking in their failed contracts summary in 2013, unlike 2012.
Nil mortifi sine lucre |
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