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Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
557
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Posted - 2014.06.17 20:23:00 -
[31] - Quote
Chapter 7 Another Caldari Connection the 2nd Caldari Campaign
Remember when I mentioned that Amarrian Retribution already lived a nomadic life prior to Inferno? It was, is and always will be easy for us to become mobile VERY fast. While the golden gates of Sahtogas will always be our home we do realize that worst case scenario we can always move all our assets in a hurry to pretty much anywhere in lowsec. Again this was another thing that served us well with the changes that came post Inferno.
Corp mail went out as it was time to take a break from the failing Amarr warzone and rejuvenate our own pockets with some MUCH needed isk. We had to feed our own war machine. And while it would be so much easier for us to just create minmatar alts and ride the isk gravy train like everyone else. That is not how we operate. We pride ourselves on being loyal. And loyalty meant moving to another warzone and banding up with old allies to fight together rather than seeing our own hands push the Minmatar cause forward.
Destination?
Blackrise baby. It was time to drop the infamous Amarrian Retribution Take Over.
Ladiester was under attck again. The Caldari were in just as bad a shape as the Amarr where as the Gallente were sitting very pretty post Inferno with system control. This was not going to be easy but it was going to be doable as all we needed to do was funnel the combined resources of Narsanite Watch, Amarrian Retribution and Superchairs Project Cerberus. Doing what we do best we dropped behind the ongoing front of the Ladiester battle. Smack Dab into Eha which was at the time deep behind the enemyGÇÖs main warfront. We tend to excel at this harassing tactic and as more and more campaigns are revealed in this history you will see this tactic used again and again.
Acting like modern day Paratroopers we planted our flag and started eating away at systems in Blackrise, mainly attacking the rear operating base of Vlillier. It is a win win situation really. If the Gallente decide to ignore us that means we can flip a lot of systems and help push the tide of tier control in favor of the Caldari. If they decide to react even better that meant relieving pressure from Ladiester and Narsanite Watch giving them time to breath and do what they do best, expand Caldari control from that side of the warzone.
The Gallente ignored us at first. That was a big mistake. People that knew us on the gallente side warned them not to ignore us. Mainly Val Erian and XGal knew exactly who we were and what we did and started to divert some defensive plexing to Vlillier.
I was ecstatic, for once I can bring all my newly learned skills to my old Caldari stomping grounds. No longer was I going to be chewed up and spit out by old Gallente rivals like Chatgris, Xgal, Princess Nexalla and Loren Gallen. This time I would have a fighting chance.
On a personal note a few fights I personally had with the above mentioned Gallente pilots will always be burned in my mind. I mean these are the same pilots that used to kill me in my little noobi merlins and kestrels long before I joined Agony and Amarrian Retribution. This time it was an even fight.
A few particular fights worth mentioning:
Xgal in Oicx. Just one comet versus another in a large plex. I won that fight, it was the first time I ever won a fight against Xgal and he was no longer the boogie man he once was when I was just starting out in Caldari.
Princess Nexalla in a small plex in Alrdranette. I was pumped to see him enter local and see his thrasher on short scan to my plex, it was payback time for all those raptors of mine you killed. Payback was good, and the hookbill beat the thrasher.
Chatgris in a medium plex in Oicx, well you canGÇÖt win them all, his arbitrator spit up and chewed out my poor hookbill so thatGÇÖs one I never beat.
So is EVE, The monsters of yesterday with time become the opponents of today.
Pressure was applied HARD to Vlillirier. And for a time we really gave the gallente a good run for their money as system after system fell to the caldari from the pressure being applied from both the Placid and Blackrise fronts. Vlilleier however proved to be a hard nut to crack as fight after fight showed the Gallente were NOT going to let that system fall.
Vlill fight video 1
Vlill fight video 2
Things were looking good for a change and through a lot of co ordination Caldari were able to hit teir 4. WE SO NEEDED THIS. I remember being at the State protectorate station trading in my hard earned LP at tier 4 feeling like a kid in a candy store.
Finally our warchests were being refreshed with much needed isk as we lost so much in the weeks leading up to and after Inferno that we were really starting to feel the pain of poverty.
Vlillirier slowly etched up to the upper 60%GÇÖ of contested. But just when things were looking good the Caldari did what the Caldari do best.
Proud Member of 'The HotPocket' Crew. What It's Like in Militia Chat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak |
Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
561
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Posted - 2014.06.17 20:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
They became Caldari and started wardeccing each AGAIN over two things.
One being a particular Caldari Alliance going by the name of Kraken being upset that Narsanite Watch was flipping the systems adjacent to their home systems. This meant they had travel farther with their Gallente alts to farm lp. The other reason was other over some silly forum run by some silly pilot named BolsterBomb that wanted to be the new Caldari Jesus, this was a forum that was supposed to have ALL the caldari pilots in it and was going to be used to co-ordinate tier pushes and system flipping.
Really?! I mean the Gallente already excelled at espionage far more than any of the other three factions this basicly meant this GÇÿCaldariGÇÖ forum had more Gallente in it than Caldari. It was loltastic as the failcascade happened and Ammarian Retribution were kicked from the GallenGǪI mean the Caldari comms. It is pretty much known that the gallente have on pilot for each five in every major Caldari corporation. Hats off itGÇÖs what they do best.
We (Amarrian Retribution) all pooled our combined relations and connections with old friends in the Caldari warzone to create an ad hoc intel channel with reliable intel. Caldari Intell channels are notorious for being tombs of silence or dueling grounds for the next internal wardec. Rarely do we see valid intell posted in them. For more details on what itGÇÖs like to be in the Caldari Militia feel free to read my previous history on them.
We just switched over to NarsaniteGÇÖs comms and continued to do what we do.
Another factor that got thrown into this mix was the newly formed Gallente super corp known as Justified Chaos. This was basically a no nonsense plex fighting corporation formed by XGal and he heavily recruited the most willing plex pilots on the gallente side. I would like to say we beat them. I mean pound for pound we had more sp per pilot even if Xgal was a very experienced FC IGÇÖm sure he felt frustrated time and again engaging our fleets.
Val Erian was another factor as well. That guy is tenacious and when he decides to plex/deplex a system it is hard to keep up.
I would like to believe that for the short time we lived in Eha we really became a clear and present danger to the Gallente. But in the grand scheme of things we were just another front on a much bigger warzone. Because when things got real for Vlillier (i.e. it started to brush up in the upper 60% contestion rate) XGal dropped the hammer and probably dragged every single pilot he could from his intell channels and the General Militia for an all out defense of Vlillier. Not able to match us pound for pound in EVERY plex both sides gave into each other and traded plexes for weeks. Sometimes setting up static gate camps on the Oicx gate to intercept us as we reshipped for another plex. Sometimes it is easier to catch an incoming fleet on a gate rather than fight them as they are properly set up in a plex.
The Caldari civil war now being in full swing and us somehow becoming the bad guys we eventually could not face the entire brunt of the Gallente brought to defend Vlillier. Burn out set in in corp and we made the call to fall back to Ostengele and keep the Intaki pipe under the control of the Caldari.
We got comfortable there and settled down in that system and it became out home away from home really.
Best part of going to new space as a faction warfare corp is you get to see new faces. They donGÇÖt know what you can do or who you are so a lot of PvP happens as your not fighting the same faces that know you and know exactly how to counter you and your tactics.
This includes pirates as well as opposing militia. Ostingele became our new home. Easy access to Stacamon and Dodixie meant we got comfortable there and nothing pissed off the Gallente Elites like flipping and holding onto Intaki. Something about Intaki control brings out all the crazy in people on both sides of the pond.
We enjoyed all the PVP we got in Placid and it seemed the Amarr warzone was a million miles away.
To be continuedGǪGǪGǪGǪ
Proud Member of 'The HotPocket' Crew. What It's Like in Militia Chat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2285
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Posted - 2014.06.17 21:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Stalking Mantis wrote: Another factor that got thrown into this mix was the newly formed Gallente super corp known as Justified Chaos. This was basically a no nonsense plex fighting corporation formed by XGal and he heavily recruited the most willing plex pilots on the gallente side. I would like to say we beat them. I mean pound for pound we had more sp per pilot even if Xgal was a very experienced FC IGÇÖm sure he felt frustrated time and again engaging our fleets.
Val Erian was another factor as well. That guy is tenacious and when he decides to plex/deplex a system it is hard to keep up.
A few things from the other side: 1. The ability to look past the semi-official Eve Online "Economic Cost/Benefit Analysis" is what makes corporations like Amarrian Retribution stand out above the crowd. +1 2. Moira. pilots Abannan and Garan Nardieu were the real heroes of Vlillirier. 3. While frustrating going against T2 logi+boosts, I had a blast. The real challenge is helping pilots get past the "I'd rather quit than lose while giving full effort" mindset that most pilots in Eve seem to have. Getting our guys into the proper mindset during the Vlillirier campaign helped us tremendously when Evoke. showed up in Eha, and then again when TEST+Caldari showed up in Eha again 6 months later.
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Anslo
Scope Works
5439
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Posted - 2014.06.17 21:17:00 -
[34] - Quote
Scope reporting live from the TAA thread; we're not mentioned at all and will now go pout. More at 11.
Serious though, this is a stupid awesome read lol. You're a great writer.
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Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
564
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Posted - 2014.06.17 23:06:00 -
[35] - Quote
Chapter 12 The Dark Amarr
What you lookin' at? You all a bunch of f%@$ing' a&%holes. You know why? You don't have the guts to be what you wanna be! You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your f&$%ing' fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth. Even when I lie. So say good night to the bad guy! Come on. The last time you gonna see a bad guy like this again, let me tell you. Come on. Make way for the bad guy. There's a bad guy comin' through! Better get outta his way!
What have we become? I mean really what are we? Deep in Ostingele on a cold lonely night this question was brought up on comms.
I mean we were NOT what the Amarr 7th fleet was originally. Amarrian Retribution was a 100 man corporation made up mostly of people that wanted to live in Sahtogas and run level four and level five missions for the Imperial Navy. Even they stopped logging in a long time ago. All that was really left of Amarrian Retribution was a small core of pilots dedicated solely for PvP. I mean a maximum of ten pilots give or take a few. The CEO of Amarrian Retribution stopped playing EVE a long time ago and all we had were a few people that had director roles running the show.
Every single pilot in our corporation is cocky and arrogant in local, in intell channels and on comms. Anyone of our pilots is a ticking time bomb and the few minutes away from doing something that will cause a wardec with someone or the other.
We are the exact opposite of diplomatic. And even if cooler heads exist in our corporation the two spiritual leaders of Amarrian Retribution would much rather wardec someone than try to work it out. ESPECIALLY if things cool down and Amarr are in control of the warzone. Wartargets become scarce. So why bother being nice to people that didnGÇÖt and donGÇÖt bleed with us?
We need people to kill. If a lack of targets, clear set goals or an active campaign is plaguing us we just all kind of stop logging in. We keep in touch with each other and are never more than a steam or text message away from each other. ItGÇÖs a very tight group. ItGÇÖs called chemistry. We have it. We know each other and how we will all act during a fight.
Almost everyone in our corporation is just a very very angry person. This rage needs to be channeled into a fight, if itGÇÖs not it just comes right back at us and we rage at each other. Being angry is a prerequisite for joining us. So is having very thick skin. It is not a normal day on comms if one of us does not ragequit EVE and/or comms for one reason or another. Usually itGÇÖs not winning a fight. But ultimately we ARE LOYAL to our chosen faction and despise any action taken by any other pilot/corporation that show a priority higher than the greater good of the Amarr.
We somehow feel entitled to it because dammit We know we are good. We know we bleed hard for our systems. Of all the other Amarrian pilots and corporations the only ones we really hold up high are the ones that bleed with us. We have entire Amarrian corporations set red because one of them Awaoxed another amarrian pilot. Yet even among our Amarrian reds we have people that are with them but earned to be blue with us because they bled with us.
We are not asking much, all we ask our allies to do is bleed with us and ABOVE ALL be loyal to the Amarr cause. DonGÇÖt shoot a friendly fleet because you just happen to be in a fleet with Predator Elite and need to be in his fleets for him to hand feed you capital killmails. A capital killmail or even twenty of them are not worth you shooting a friendly amarr. At least not to us.
SoGǪGǪGǪwho are we? I guess that makes us the bad guys doesnGÇÖt it?
GÇ£You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain"
We lose so many friends and allies in the Amarr militia because we just donGÇÖt have patience for things like running minni alts to farm plexes, awoxing an amarr pilot because your bored and would really like to have that killmail.
Twisted? Yes maybe we are but hey, at least we stick to be loyal.
I guess thatGÇÖs when we decided to shed our skin and become who we are today. We needed a darker emblem, something that exemplified what we are to the minmatar and the people that eat away at the Amarrian greater good. Those people needed to be checked.
We chose the theme of revenge.
Because really anything we do is going to be a reaction and revenge against crimes committed to either our own twisted moral code of what an Amarr pilot should be, or to avenge for the Amarr for all the weak tactics you used as a minmatar, all the griffens, all the GÇÿletGÇÖs only take a 3 to 1 odds fightGÇÖ All the stabbed farming you did.
We were no longer Amarrian Retribution. A new corporation was born deep in Ostingele that night.
And our loyalty to the Amarr cause was already being questioned as people started to accuse us of becoming farmers chasing that sweet Caldari LP and turning our backs on the Amarr warzone.
Is that so? Fire up the carriers guys time to go home.
Amarrian Retribution died that night. We became the Dark Amarr.
Our leader?
The Angriest of us all
Kim Jung Pocket
Enter Amarrian Vengeance
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger, All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
Time to pull out the dotlan maps and see what our minmatar counterparts have been up to while we were gone. And like it or not the rest of our Amarr allies really did,,,,need people like us.
To be continuedGǪGǪGǪGǪ
Proud Member of 'The HotPocket' Crew. What It's Like in Militia Chat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak |
Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
569
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Posted - 2014.06.18 03:13:00 -
[36] - Quote
Chapter 13 Bad Company
Company, always on the run Destiny is the rising sun Oh, I was born a shotgun in my hands Behind the gun I'll make my final stand That's why they call me Bad company And I can't deny Bad company Till the day I die
Five Finger Death Punch
During our Caldari vacation the Minmatar started talking about getting a medal. This is a very esteemed medal any true blood FW pilot would love to have. It is a medal issued by CCP (on behalf of their chosen fw empire) to each and every pilot in that faction.
The conditions for achieving such a high honor?
Complete control of all the relevant factional warfare space. In other words: taking control of all your opponentsGÇÖ space in lowsec.
Seems the minmatar have been steamrolling the Amarr. Complaints through the forums where loud and numerous from the Amarr pilots that seemed to have been caught in an unending hole that was only getting deeper as more and more minmatar farming alts were created by what seemed like EVERYONE in EVE.
I mean how canGÇÖt you jump on this gravy train where 20 minutes of semi afk botton orbiting could net you a stabberfleet?
We came back to Sahtogas expecting the worst but found a HUGE Australian Flag planted on the Sahtogas undock. Condor Amarr and his Australian corporation Black Watch Guard (now a part of CVA) seemed to have achieved the impossible. They held off the swarm of Minmatar pilots just enough to not allow Fortress Sahtogas to fall during our stay in Caldari Space. Knowing how little help could be extended in an already thinly stretched Amarr force we will forever salute Black Watch Guard for having balls of steel and bleeding for their home as any true Amarr should.
07 Black Watch Guard
At the other tower of Amarrian Power Egglehende all we could really see are chickens.
No I mean it, literally Chickens.
This was a new corporation that we knew nothing about. It seemed to have been a result of a late night drunken bet on the comms of some nulsec alliance. The goal was to simply take as many people from reddit.com as possible and get them to play EVE Online. IGÇÖm serious I couldnGÇÖt make this stuff up if I wanted to. Fweddit was born.
In my life I have never been in fleet comms that were so disorganized and hilarious that I was in tears the whole time. They were a breath of fresh air because everyone in the Amarr warzone was so serious and stressed out about the Minmatar that these guys really were a blast of much needed comedic relief to remind us all that hey man. ItGÇÖs just a game.
DonGÇÖt believe me? Watch their own propaganda if you dare.
A very strange marriage happened in Egglehende. The new group of hundreds of Fwedditors where taken under the protective wing of Shalee Lianne and Almity of In Exile.
They were given a proper FC to show them the ways of lowsec fighting. Not to say Fweddit didnGÇÖt have good leaders that knew how to PVP, but anyone should realize now that nullsec pvp is a much different game than lowsec pvp. I LAW provided much needed experience of how to fight the Minmatar. Fweddit provided much needed pilots.
It was an odd marriage but it worked. Almity shined bright as he took the Fwedditors out on nightly roams giving many a new EVE player their first taste of EVE Online combat.
Initially the Minmatar shrugged them off. Then they realized hey a bunch of lowskilled pilots are our opponents lets all go farm their killmails and feel l33t about ourselves. Minmatar bloggers welcomed Fweddit as someone they could finally GÇÿfightGÇÖ (quote unquote).
What most minmatar missed was how serious this threat would soon become. Remember todayGÇÖs t1 fitted Thrasher Pilot is Tomorrows T2 fitted Prophecy Pilot. And the Amarr Tower of Egglehende was now projecting force onto the warzone instead of harboring broken Amarr bitter vets.
Proud Member of 'The HotPocket' Crew. What It's Like in Militia Chat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak |
Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
571
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Posted - 2014.06.18 03:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
In the third Amarrian tower of power Kamela Wolfsbrigade was long gone to other parts of EVE and Kamela was always the launch point for any new pilot joining the Amarr.
ItGÇÖs proximity to Amarr made it easy for resupply and only one jump from Kourmonen means you didnGÇÖt have to go far to be in the thick of the Amarr Minmatar PVP melting pot that is Kourmonen. In a twist of fate worthy of the most unrealistic bollywood movie guess who decided to join the Amarr and hold the Amarr flag in the Kamela Tower.
Agony Unleashed.
I remember when we first discussed Agony Unleashed on comms with my fellow corpmates. They scoffed and told me GÇÿDude, they are just another group of nullseccers that will get their asses handed to them and leave fw.GÇÖ I knew better than that. I was part of them at one point in my EVE career. I knew exactly what each and every Agony pilot was. They thrived for being the underdogs. They had a full set of educational material known as Agony University that taught a large majority of the EVE community how to PvP. They were like EVE University but for PVP.
DonGÇÖt Believe me? Feel free to visit their website and take a look at what they teach.
I knew exactly why Agony was here. Being in Amarr FW was the hardest of all four factions and they sure as hell werenGÇÖt here for the isk because Amarr lp was worth pennies compared to the other three factions.
They were here to fight outnumbered. They were in it for the challenge. They were very dignified opponents that threw out GFGÇÖs no matter what and always respected their opponents. Trash talking was a no no in Agony.
With the new players entering the field including our new found corporation of Amarrian Vengeance the minmatar where about to get the resistance they desperately called for after months of warzone control.
Be Careful what you wish for.
Feeling the pressure the Amarr were under CCP finally gave the Amarr Minmatar warzone a much needed adjustment. The map of the warzone was about to change forever.
To Be ContinuedGǪ.
Proud Member of 'The HotPocket' Crew. What It's Like in Militia Chat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak |
Madrax Muvila
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2014.06.18 03:25:00 -
[38] - Quote
Bloody good read there Mantis.
I always enjoyed my time in amarr FW. Might have to bring my new toon over and die lots \o/ Who needs SP!
http://killingitineve.wordpress.com/ |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
239
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Posted - 2014.06.18 04:29:00 -
[39] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Scope reporting live from the TAA thread; we're not mentioned at all and will now go pout. More at 11.
Serious though, this is a stupid awesome read lol. You're a great writer.
He hasn't got to the eszur/etc campaigns.
Also, he neglected to mention how three of us with an army of alts flipped ost overnight and camped the station the next morning.....
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
412
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Posted - 2014.06.18 04:32:00 -
[40] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:Anslo wrote:Scope reporting live from the TAA thread; we're not mentioned at all and will now go pout. More at 11.
Serious though, this is a stupid awesome read lol. You're a great writer. He hasn't got to the eszur/etc campaigns. Also, he neglected to mention how three of us with an army of alts flipped ost overnight and camped the station the next morning..... Tell that story templar. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro |
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
239
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Posted - 2014.06.18 04:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Templar Dane wrote:Anslo wrote:Scope reporting live from the TAA thread; we're not mentioned at all and will now go pout. More at 11.
Serious though, this is a stupid awesome read lol. You're a great writer. He hasn't got to the eszur/etc campaigns. Also, he neglected to mention how three of us with an army of alts flipped ost overnight and camped the station the next morning..... Tell that story templar.
Any account of that evening will be pretty inaccurate due to sleep deprivation. I recall at least one pilot calling in sick after the math was done, alts joining corp just to dps the bunker, and flipping it mere minutes before downtime.
Then some hazy memories of camping the station and two enemy corps not undocking for a least a day and a half until they could get someone online to drop them from the militia....... |
Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
572
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Posted - 2014.06.18 05:43:00 -
[42] - Quote
Chapter 14 For God and Empire. The Eugidi Campaign
Just how deep do you believe? Will you bite the hand that feeds? Will you chew until it bleeds? Can you get up off your knees? Are you brave enough to see? Do you want to change it?
What if this whole crusade's A charade And behind it all there's a price to be paid For the blood On which we dine Justified in the name of the holy and the divine Just how deep do you believe? Nine Inch Nails
November 2012
It only took a day or two for us to digest the current warzone and what needed to be done. We barely had time to settle down in Sahtogas for a day and hand out the esteemed inner corp Caldari Campaign Medals. The most welcome sight any Amarrian Vengeance pilot could wish for was already flashing our screens up. Another Corp mail was sent out to restock FAST as it was time to deploy for a new Campaign. The Amarrian Minmatar warzone has changed forever and we had to move fast to capitalize on this.
TRIAD is a corp as old as the winds of the Minmatar resistance. They made their home out of Eszur. Eszur was a natural choke point for the whole Amarr Minmatar warzone. The average day for any given TRIAD pilot had to include the permanent gate camp set up on the Hofjaldgund gate. That gate camp was a serious problem for any Amarr pilot wishing to run a few missions to feed his/her much starved wallet.
In fact many an Amarr pilot kept their mission boats in Minmatar highsec to avoid that gatecamp as pretty much 95% of the missions handed out by 24th Imperial Crusade where in Metropolis. Getting into metropolis meant you HAD to go through the gates of Eszur from Hof.
CCP changed that.
CCP added a gate connecting Kurn to Isbrabata. Another gate was made connecting Siseide to Eszur (this meant Fweddit were only two jumps from TRIAD now).
I canGÇÖt begin to tell you how much this change was a sigh of relief to all the Amarr. It meant we had multiple access points into and out of Metropolis for one. It also meant that TRIAD couldnGÇÖt apply a permanent chokehold on the only pipe available for Amarr pilots to make isk. Suddenly the naked backside of the minmatar (backwater Metropolis) was wide open and begging for an Amarrian thrust.
Needless to say Amarrian Vengeance was more than happy to spearhead that thrust.
Aset
This was the target. This needed to fall ASAP as it now became prime real estate. Connecting a plethora or Metropolis systems it could easily be used to flip systems in the minmatar backyard relieving the pressure on the PvP melting pot and minmatar/Amarr warfare trench that was Kourmonen.
TRIAD reacted slightly to the change by setting up a forward operating base in Isbrabata. I guess old habit die hard so they thought ya another choke point for us to perma camp the Kurn gate and catch would be Amarr missioners trying to avoid our main gate camp in Eszur.
Ushrakhan also set up permanent shop in Isbrabata. They were going to be the main opposition in this campagn. When I asked Flyinghotpocket who lived in Isbrabata right after the Campaign orders went out via corp mail and he answered Ushrakhan. My head was spinning.
It is hard to explain to you why my head would be spinning here because really to understand who Ushrakhan were you really needed to be an Old Guard EVE player. Someone that has been around for more than four years. I can already see a few CVA and Agony Unleashed pilots smile as they read this paragraph because they know exactly what I mean.
When I first started playing EVE In 2010 I was just another Ibis flying through a noobi highsec system with an NPC school as my home. I had nothing but an ibis with one unit of trit in my cargo hold and a great big WTF look on my face. Someone posted a highsec recruitment post in local and I joined them. Two weeks later I was told our corp was moving to Providence to fight CVA.
Ushrakhan back in 2010 where 0.0 landlords. Extremely heavy hitting nullsec serious business spaceships with connection to shady AAA Russians that took Providence from CVA under the guise of GÇÿWe came for our PeopleGÇÖ. Agony Unleashed was part of that Provibloc and that is where I met them and came to admire them as any my little badger slipped through their bubbles and systems under the watchfull eyes of of what seemed to me at the time a terrifying ship called a Jaguar or some other T2 ship I wished I could fast forward a year or two in SP to fly.
I was dumbfounded by EVE Online and hadnGÇÖt the slightest clue what I was doing. All of a sudden I was a tiny Condor or Merlin fighting in a HUGE nullsec war not even knowing wtf was going on. Go back to battleclinic. Check my first kill in EVE ever and you will see what I mean.
So EVE Online is now coming full circle again and the name Ushra Khan that I once feared and admired as a HUGE 0.0 alliance was living in Isbrabata?! And I was going to fight them? Yes and yes.
The fight for Aset was a hard one. We had the initiative and the Minmatar were slow to realize what we were doing so we got to flip It in two days or so I might be mistaken. Making sure we drove the point home we moved all our assets to an Aset station. We made a loud statement that we were going to be there for a long time as our ultimate goal was to eat away at the wide open systems of metropolis and flip them for the Amarr.
Proud Member of 'The HotPocket' Crew. What It's Like in Militia Chat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak |
Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
572
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 05:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
The Minmatar soon wised up though. And suddenly without any real system control fights going on anywhere else at the time it was easy for the Minmatar to funnel all the force they had to retake Aset from us.
We fought hard and banged the intell channels for support from all the three Amarr towers. InExile, Fweddit, Agony anyone and everyone willing to come help us keep Aset.
The only problem here was any force projection from our allies was going to be temporary. We where the only ones that go all in and move everything we have with us when we go out on a campaign. If an Agony pilot went down they had to pod all the way back to Kamela to reship. If a Fweddit or InExile pilot went down he had to pod all the way back to Egglehende to reship.
Unlike the minmatar they had rapid reshipping options in Isbrabata as we did for the short time we held onto Aset.
In the end though. We failed. I say we because if was a combined failure for all the Amarr to lose that initial fight. It took our leadership a few weeks after Aset was recaptured by the Minmatar to grab each and every Amar PVP corp leader and explain to them WHY we needed to control Aset. We were basically scattering the Minmatar and making them choose which front they wanted to focus their blob on.
It took a long time for us to get everyone onboard our vision of how to split the warzone. Not everyone promised to lend a hand but they did promise to turn up the pressure coming from both Egglehende and Kamela. ThatGÇÖs all we really needed was someone to distract the LNA/Iron Oxide/TRIAD blob long enough for us to set up a new status qou in Metropolis and ultimately to the Amarr Minmatar Warzone.
Being what we are we decided this fight was far from over and Aset will fall no matter how many ships we have to throw into the fire to get it done. Another forward operating base was set up for Amarrian Vengeance in Kurn. Time to dig in this not going to be an easy campaign.
We couldn't do this alone and it was time we reached out to the most Loyal Amarr corporation ever a corporation that would be MORE than happy to fight Ushra Khan.
It was time to call Praetoria Imperialis Excubitori.
To Be Continued...... Proud Member of 'The HotPocket' Crew. What It's Like in Militia Chat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak |
Galinius Valgani
DeepSpace Manufacturers Brothers of Tangra
5
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Posted - 2014.06.18 07:08:00 -
[44] - Quote
How dare you...stop telling the story here.
More!
Nice read. Thanks. |
Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
574
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 07:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Chapter 15 We come for your people
GÇ£all we ask our allies to do is bleed with usGÇ¥
Fweddit and InExile Delivered on their promise.
They pushed Eszur the home system of TRIAD hard with plexing fleets. TemFed even pitched in promising to hit Lantorn and keep Sasawong busy defending his home system. Zarnak Wulf the so called King of Vard plexed up Vard like crazy.
ShirakSkunk works quickly moved into Vard renforcing Zarnak and started to plex Dal. Dal is crucial for the Minmatar as it is a major mission hub so any deplexing alts the Minmatar had where pretty much tied up deplexing three crucial systems.
Soon the pressure was on the minmatar to react to the flare up of multiple threats and they couldnGÇÖt focus their entire blob on Aset. This is all we needed really because this meant we could do our thing without facing the entire Minmatar militia.
During our second push in the Eugidi campagn we borught along a few friends.
To my surprise Amarrian Vengeance leadership have extensive ties and relationships with the old Amarrian Guard. PIE it seems were more than happy to kick Ushra Khan in the teeth with us. While the Initial support from PIE was small, once a few of them tasted Ushra Khan Blood they started to come out of the woodwork and focus pressure with us.
Cynthia Nezmor was also called upon. All I can really say about Cynthia Nezmor is that she/he is like the Amarrian stig (from Top Gear fame) we never heard her/his voice on comms and PvPGÇÖing with her/him/it is done through text chat. But donGÇÖt be fooled. Cynthia Nezmor is a one man army. DonGÇÖt believe me? Ask any Minmatar pilot who Cynthia Nezmor is. Best part? She is so full of rage and anger getting banned multiple times from EVE for one thing or another said in local. Now this is our kind of pilot. Additionally if you are in a minmatar corporation odds are pretty high that a Cynthia Nezmor alt is either a director or pretty damn close to becoming one.
Another ally was a small polish corporation full of nothing but balls deep courage for the cause. They were small and unheard of but they fought hard for Sahtogas and will always be deeply respected by us KOZA Z PIEKLA a Polish gang of Amarr PvPGÇÖers. They have a permanent place in all our Intel channels.
Last but defiantly not least we needed a strong Euro time zone presence and Space Brewery Association was there to cover that gap.
Ushra Khan was reeling from the sudden withdraw of Minmatar support and the sudden counter attack by the combined above mentioned forces coming from Kurn. Cynthia Nezmore provided us with all of Ushra khans internal corpmails and let me tell you. The begging and pleading they were doing in those mails for help from LNA/Iron Oxide/TRIAD was hilarious. It seemed they really were more fragile than we thought.
Ushra Khan curled up back into Isbrabata, defensive plexing it like crazy and giving up on keeping Aset. They focused everything they had on making sure the contested rate of Isbra was low. This was perfect for us as it only meant Aset was reclaimed faster than expected Fweddit provided the hammer needed for the IHUB bash. Once again we moved assets there and so did the newly founded makeshift alliance of the above mentioned corps.
Ushra Khan was defiantly not the Ushra Khan of 2010. They were a shell of their former glory and most of the people willing to PvP where new pilots so they really never stood a chance when they were all alone.
There was little they could do detached from the rest of the Minmatar and to be honest. In my humble opinion Ushra Khan did not fall victim to Amarrian VengeanceGÇÖs elite PvP as much as they kind of shot themselves in their own foot by deploying so far from the Minmatar power hubs.
Nothing they did seemed to stop us. We were to much for them. Finally, in what can only be an act of desperation. They dropped a carrier on our gang. After the Amarr settled in next door in Aset Isbrabata fell. I almost feel sorry for some of those new pilots fighting for Ushra KhanGǪGǪ.Almost
At the end of the campaign we made new friends, people that bled with us during the Eugidi campaign. That is the ultimate bond and we were happy to have our new found allies get a taste of what we do and decide they really liked it and wanted to be part of any of our future campaigns.
Amarrian Vengeance got a taste for something new. Something good. Something we decided we wanted more of. Amarrian Vengeance got a taste of the sweet victory that came from flipping a home system of a major minmatar corporation. The Minmatar should have never let us taste that kind of blood as the decision to let us flip a home system would ultimately come back and haunt them forever. They say once a Tiger gets a taste of human flesh he must it must be killed. It aquires a taste for it. It become a Man Eater.
And thus the Bond between Amarrian Vengeance and PIE was born.
A bond that will serve us well in our future campaign
To Be ContinuedGǪGǪ
Proud Member of 'The HotPocket' Crew. What It's Like in Militia Chat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak |
Colt Blackhawk
Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
290
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 09:00:00 -
[46] - Quote
Great stuff. Btw when Blackwatch defended Sahtogas the Oyonata gate was called the "Orgon Gate". Some noob alliance called "iprot" (my first fw toon that go trashed laters "learned" pvp there) helped Blackwatcxh defending Saht and it was more than hilarious. Btw you could also mention "S0re" and "Hopeless Addiction". I fought with Agony during the Kourm Campaign and remember how they got burned out by steady plexing (Greygal didn-¦t want to defplex any more). Agony went inactive October/November 2012 and "S0re" = "Forced Penetration" (I really LOVED my eve time in that corp) was creating an alliance of 400 pilots and some 1000(!!!) Dusties to Defend Kam. In the end we had some hilarious battles in Jan/Feb 2013 in Kam where we lost Kam in the end for a week or two but hey I remember we made Kamela the most dangerous system in eve for several weeks. [09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks. |
Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
577
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Posted - 2014.06.18 09:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote: Three Years of Amarrian History in two paragraphs
Wow colt slow down there buddy. I really couldn't be everywhere at once so really I am trying my best to highlight the History of Amarr Militia from my eyes.
I am not disputing nor confirming anything you wrote there. But I couldn't write about something I didn't witness and/or see with my own eyes.
Dont worry we are going to get to all that. We are following a very tight timeline to keep it as accurate as humanly possible.
Funny you should mention dark time for the amar though. As it seems we reached that point in our history where the Amarr are about to take a very dark turn indeed.
To Be Continued...........
Proud Member of 'The HotPocket' Crew. What It's Like in Militia Chat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak |
Christine Peeveepeeski
The Amarrian Lyceum
541
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 15:30:00 -
[48] - Quote
Tell me about it, one time on average we had 40 pilots in militia chat in eu tz at most. Crazy.
Anyway, stalking awesome read and i don't get a propganda warning as you've done well to write it from your perspective. I would say though the fights for SIS and AUGA from our perspective have been some of the longest hardest campaigns ever fought. we bled, hard and got little support doing so. We did of course suffer from vets that just didn't do plexing but we also grew one of the greatest alliances of players in amarr FW and to this day sis stands, now auga. For how long? no idea but I'll be damned if i let it fall while I have ships in my hangers :P
P.S. joining you guys in eugidi was fun as hell btw. Not going to lie, part of it was because I was curious if you guys were as much of a bunch of cocks as you make out but you're not. Tenacious Bastards one and all of you and amarr are better for it. Even if we don't exactly gel internally all the time :P |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
412
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 17:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
Stalking i really tried to help you with the timeline here and i guess the aset campaign you kinda went afk for it so let me tell the accurate time tables.
We moved into aset, with KOZA Z PIELKA holding it for many years prior. we held aset for a month. during the week before the new stargates were created they used a carrier against us. (that video of us killing the carrier, you can see MINOR plexs which means before the new plexs).
We only held onto aset for a week after the new stargate was created as support from arzad (iron oxidie) was now only 6 jumps away and not 69.
The militia pushed elsewhere and TRIAD withdrew their FOB in isbrabata
we moved out of aset the day it was captured by the minmatar to kurn rejoined militia the next day, and we fought for isbrabata and reclaimed it within a week, aset too.
the rest of ushra'khan was at war with LNA so, LNA would routinely come up and hotdrop ushra'khan and other minmatar. Ushra'khan moved to eszur. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1306
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 18:09:00 -
[50] - Quote
Stalking Mantis I do enjoy reading this thread. But I think a few things should be made clear not just for historical purposes but also so you understand what some of the amarr outside amarrian retribution dealt with before and immediately after inferno. Also I think itGÇÖs good that all pilots in the amarr militia know where the others are coming from.
Stalking Mantis wrote:Chapter 8 Inferno and the Three Towers..... The third Tower of Power in the Amarrian Castle is Egglehende. Fearing the worst from the pressure applied to the pipe from houla up to auga, dal and Sesiede Muad Dib and the rest of Imperial Fed rushed there assets to Egglehende. So did the Imperial Outlaws led by Shalee Lian and Almity. Egglehende was the new Tower for those not sure they will be able to hold onto their bases in Auga. TRIAD and the Power house that is Sasawong were leading the assault on that front and clearing our Amarr systems in from Siseide, lantorn, vard, dal all the way down to Auga...... Egglehende was the new home for pilots not yet familiar with the new mechanics of plex fighting. It could never fall as it was not part of the Amarrian Minmatar warzone BUT it was conveniently one jump from that warzone and two jumps from the old Amarrian Tower of Agua. ....
I realize this is your perception. But I just wanted to correct a few things. Imerial OutLaws was not based out of Auga when inferno was coming. We had just rebased from otosella (were the corp had been taking a break from the fw front killing test like fish in a barrel) to arzad. Beside the main base of Arzad we also were planning on having a few other bases throughout the warzone - at least before we found out about the lockout change.
We understood plex fighting. And in fact flipped systems around and including arzad after the lockouts and vp decrease/plex were announced but before inferno hit. The fact that it was going to take 5xs as many plexes to flip a systems was a huge issue on the mind of those who had an interest in the plexing game before inferno. At least it was something that loomed large for ILaw pilots who liked to plex. This massive change is often left out of the discussions and history is reinvented as if station lock outs were the only reason people were desperately trying to plex before inferno. This was yet another reason why the bug/exploit before inferno was such a huge blow to amarr plexers.
The bug/exploit was that you could keep a cloaked ship in a closed plex and no other plexes would spawn! Hence it was very easy for minmatar to hold systems leading up to inferno. We ran into this issue more than a few times as we were plexing systems around our base of Arzad. We discussed what we should do and decided not to engage in the exploit ourselves but just keep trying to take the systems without cheating. But after a few nights of having no plexes spawn it was clear that was futile.
FW players asked ccp to address the bug/exploit you can see the old forum posts. I sent at least one petition asking for this to please be addressed before the massive consequences came. But this did not happen. If the plexes stop spawning you can't take a system. Moving to Egg was the best course of action by far.
Its possible Sahtogas may not have had to deal with this issue, because perhaps unlike Arzad it was not a system where both amarr and minmatar were based. I'm not saying that we would have been able to take arzad back again it would have been interesting though. I am saying that it was literally impossible for us to take arzad because the game was literally broken.
Also for clarity sake at the beginning of inferno until October 22nd 2012 you did not get more lp with higher tiers. You could buy more for less lp when you were at a higher tier. So amarr could make just as many lp as minmatar even when they were atr tier 1. This built up a natural pressure for the losing militia to organize and make a push to cashout. Also you received no lp for defensive plexing.
Ceratain Amarr leaders failed to understand the consequences of these mechanics until very late. (either that or they were just pretending not to know this because they were making isk with minmatar alts.) So Amarr would often spend time defensive plexing and also flipping systems as soon as they were vulnerable. This just fed the minmatar farm, and lead to a very large disparity in what the pvp corps could bring out to fight with. We still donGÇÖt have an idea of just how much isk was made from the minmatar lp store during that time. I can only imagine. But I do know we could not make close to the isk we could pre inferno since our missions were out and the minmatar were able to drop faction stabbers like they were t1 fit rifters.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1306
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 18:10:00 -
[51] - Quote
Also just an interesting fact- at the time inferno hit sasawong had more vp than any minmatar corporation. And there were several long standing minmatar corps. I don't think there was another minmatar pilot even close to sasawong. The fact that certain minmatar pvp corps were claiming they were winning due to "superior tactics" was pretty unbearable to hear.
Plus there was a very real difference in npcs that allowed minmatar/sasawong to capture more plexes leading up to inferno and right after inferno. Not to mention the fact that the disparaty in rats lead many pilots to choose minmatar militia instead of amarr for the easy isk from missions. This lead to plenty of bitterness that ccp would hand this huge advantage to the minmatar. I just want you to understand that there were in fact amarr groups interested in plexing and trying to play the game right beside amarrian retribution.
Amarrian vengeance/retibution did take a hard line even against people running minmatar missions with alts. Missions do not effect warzone control. So yeah that lead to some unnecessary inter-militia strife. IMO pre-inferno amarr plexers never recovered their morale from the initial screwing ccp gave us by putting such huge consequences on a broken and imbalanced system. This lead several/most people to just admit the game was broken and pursue faction war as easy isk. Those who did quickly trade sides to minmatar could make all the isk they would ever need in eve.
That said I was proud to fly with Imperial Outlaws who I believe was the only corp whose pilots stuck with amarr through every hardship and never changed militias.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
621
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 18:29:00 -
[52] - Quote
Cearain wrote:That said I was proud to fly with Imperial Outlaws who I believe was the only corp whose pilots stuck with amarr through every hardship and never changed militias.
Unless you're counting brief periods of dropping out of militia, there's plenty of corps that have stuck with Amarr through hardships and not changed militias. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1307
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 18:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Cearain wrote:That said I was proud to fly with Imperial Outlaws who I believe was the only corp whose pilots stuck with amarr through every hardship and never changed militias. Unless you're counting brief periods of dropping out of militia, there's plenty of corps that have stuck with Amarr through hardships and not changed militias.
There are corps that have and I don't mean to exclude them. But I wouldn't say "plenty" have. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Silverbackyererse
Nasranite Watch
66
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 18:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
Great read.
Moar Stalking Mantis and less Cearain please. |
Rin Valador
Sovereign Colonies Armed Forces
109
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Posted - 2014.06.18 18:52:00 -
[55] - Quote
This has been a fantastic read so far and I really cannot wait until the next chapter.
Makes me want to put on the colors of PIE again and venture forth in my slicer! "There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10 |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
412
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Posted - 2014.06.18 19:12:00 -
[56] - Quote
Cearain We had just rebased from otosella (were the corp had been taking a break from the fw front killing test like fish in a barrel) to arzad. [/quote wrote: [quote=Cearain] That said I was proud to fly with Imperial Outlaws who I believe was the only corp whose pilots stuck with amarr through every hardship and never changed militias.
i guess if we just left amarr a couple times and killed neutrals its not the same as leaving amarr to help our allies.
you have no idea how hard it is to resist debunking 80% of what you just said cearain. Rest assured i will respond to this after stalking tells his story with much greater detail on why EXACTLY we left amarr the 2nd time. stalking covered one of the major reasons (bomber alts) but there was so much more.
Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro |
Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
584
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Posted - 2014.06.18 20:09:00 -
[57] - Quote
Imperial Outlaws; as far as I remember lived in Arzad along with Iron Oxide at the same time I met the guys from Amarrian Retribution.
They were in a constant fight with Iron Oxide over plexes at the time (pre inferno). But no matter how many plex fights were won during the American timezone for Imperial Outlaws, all there plexing work was deplexed when they went to sleep and the Euro time zoned Iron Oxide logged in.
This was very clear from one of the first videos I posted. In it you clearly see and Imperial Outlaws fleet fighting for a plex in Arzad way before Inferno hit. You can even hear FIRST GENERAL in that video so plex fighting was not unheard of. Just not the pure focus of everyone as it came to be after Inferno.
Plex fighting for most before Inferno was kind of like a pass time hobby when things were slow with roaming instead of an all out philosophy or a reason for being.
I hesitated about mentioning Arzad as Imperial Outlaws home at the time I met Amarrian Retiribution.
But the end result of the pre Inferno push is everyone from Imperial Outlaws and everyone that lived in Auga moved to Egglehende.
Just to be clear I am not saying everyone that initially moved to Egglehende didn't know how to plex. They just didn't have enough to bring to the table to fight the combined forces that seemed to be falling out of the sky at the time. Proud Member of 'The HotPocket' Crew. What It's Like in Militia Chat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak |
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
493
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Posted - 2014.06.18 20:37:00 -
[58] - Quote
You forgot that incident where you turned up in A&E to have a rather large baked potato removed from your rectum. |
Stalking Mantis
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
586
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Posted - 2014.06.18 20:55:00 -
[59] - Quote
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:something something
I think Pandemic Legion helped you guys out with that potato problem when your Leviathan accepted a random fleet invite.
Don't worry the fall of Arzad and Iron Oxide is coming in our story. Don't rush it. Proud Member of 'The HotPocket' Crew. What It's Like in Militia Chat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1308
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Posted - 2014.06.18 21:08:00 -
[60] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Cearain We had just rebased from otosella (were the corp had been taking a break from the fw front killing test like fish in a barrel) to arzad.
[quote=Cearain wrote: That said I was proud to fly with Imperial Outlaws who I believe was the only corp whose pilots stuck with amarr through every hardship and never changed militias.
i guess if we just left amarr a couple times and killed neutrals its not the same as leaving amarr to help our allies.
you have no idea how hard it is to resist debunking 80% of what you just said cearain. Rest assured i will respond to this after stalking tells his story with much greater detail on why EXACTLY we left amarr the 2nd time. stalking covered one of the major reasons (bomber alts) but there was so much more.
[/quote]
FHP
The trip to Oto happened before the inferno changes were even announced. Ilaw didn't ever leave amarr militia. And while we were in oto I did plex around todifraun and evati. Test just happened to decide to base out of the same station we picked. They weren't friendly to us so I law pilots killed them in so many numbers Ilaw made "the news":
http://archive.evenews24.com/2012/02/08/test-a-different-kind-of-alliance/
When he talks about needing that caldari lp to replenish the coffers I can relate.
Anyway I am interested in Mantis's views. It helps me understand where he is coming from even if I disagree with some of what he says. You might do the same with what I write.
I don't mind if you want to try to "debunk" what I said. Such a discussion might be helpful as we both might learn a bit. Most of what I said were simple facts about what happened leading up to and right after inferno hit.
If that was meant personally against me for leaving the faction war occupancy war altogether, that's fine. Faction war occupancy was broken so I left it. It might still be broken but I am giving it another try. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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