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Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
43
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 22:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Greetings,
Its hard to get away from bias feedback from the null-sec community. The game permeates into more than just the physical gameplay, it infiltrates externally with propaganda and deception, so its hard for sides to take a step back, put down the pitch forks and assist the new generations of the game.
I'm offering my opinion, advice and guidance to all new players that wish to know something about Null-Sec. My agenda is simple, to dispel some misconceptions regarding Null and hopefully convince more of you to take the plunge into it, regardless of if its with me and my ilk or not.
So Eve-mail me or post here and I'll try to give you an as honest answer as possible,
Bland Inquisitor |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4024
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 22:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hmz. Null sec resident that is going to give unbiased info.
/me grabs popcorn for the show. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
8072
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 22:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bland Inquisitor wrote: and hopefully convince more of you to take the plunge into it Wait, wouldn't that then beee... biased? Would that be different than just directing them to the area of the game that seems to fit them best, on a personal level? be it highsec, lowsec, WH or null. Or even player SOV nul vs NPC controlled nul. Just an observation...
/me steals some popcorn |
Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
44
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 23:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm a guy from VANIS, lead corp of INIT, members of the CFC. I do not hide who I am, I've recently been working with a lot of new players and it seems to me that people such as myself do not interact with newer players.
I guess the easiest way to find out if I'm genuine would be to ask me a question :) |
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
152
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 23:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Good idea; hope you and others are reaching out to some of the new player organization forums as well.
I know when I started, even just the story behind the current SOV posturing was fascinating. It didn't hurt to get both biased viewpoints either since it helped demonstrate the player driven story... |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4026
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 23:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bland Inquisitor wrote:I'm a guy from VANIS, lead corp of INIT, members of the CFC. I do not hide who I am, I've recently been working with a lot of new players and it seems to me that people such as myself do not interact with newer players.
I guess the easiest way to find out if I'm genuine would be to ask me a question :)
Oh, I'm sure you want to help new players. But, past experience I've seen on the forums here is that when someone talks about the gameplay they personally like, it's always slightly biased (hell, it even counts for me).
As you said in your OP, you give your own opinion on things and that always means that it will be biased as you use your personal opinion on something.
Don't get me wrong, I too would love to see more people (both old and young) to at least try null-sec. I've done it, I had some great time in there, but in the end it wasn't my cup of tea. It is still a great area of gameplay for those that like it and I agree a main issue that null-sec has is that there are many many misconceptions about it, fueled by people who claim they know how it works yet never been there. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Rankan
State War Academy Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 02:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
...and this dear newbies, is what you can look forward to in nullsec
|
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
153
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 02:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rankan wrote:...and this dear newbies, is what you can look forward to in nullsec
Example of naive bias the OP is trying to overcome....
Why not just let people ask questions and try to describe the different features of the game?
Whether you like it or not, it does provide a unique way to play eve and new players should at least be informed about it. |
Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
46
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 02:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Well I'll give it a try, for you L'ouris.
EvE Online for me has always been about null, I've never spent much time in empire and probably never will. Empire to me is lawless, dangerous and over-populated. Its mechanics confusing, its politics odd. Indeed the longest amount of time I've ever spent in empire has been running incursions for isk. While I'll not argue Null is better than Hi-Sec, it certainly is a lot simpler.
My alliance has been around long enough to know that sov is not set in stone. Any given day in Null somebody is losing theirs to someone else, the objective then is not to be defined as an alliance by the space you hold or the block your part of but by your actions. In fact other than building supers, R64's and rental, holding sov is more hindrance to nullsec entities than anything else.
Sov makes you a target. It puts something of yours permanently at risk. The up and coming expansion will see more industry head out into Null, meaning potentially trillions more isk invested into null that can and will be lost. One thing is certain the end of the so called "cold war" between CFC and N3 will shake the entirety of eve. I guess being part of that is one of the main drives for many players to be in Null. To be part of the big battles like B-R. Having been there I can tell you the actual event was horrific, the idea of the limits of a conflict being the very limits of which the server remains functional does not create good gameplay. The draw for most who attended wasn't that they wanted to be there, it was that they wanted to say they were.
Null Sec en-stows a sense of duty to your alliance. Not every aspect of Null is especially engaging or fun. Its a dilemma that faces many of us. If you hold space you have to defend it, defending it often means becoming friendly with your neighbors which in tern means you defend their space too. Before you know it your forming every day to do house keeping in and around your space and that of your allies space. The flip side of this is, you have fleets on a daily basis that generate some content at the cost of having to do some heavy lifting more often for others than for yourself.
The alternative is to not hold sov, great for hot dropping and having limited number of blues, however your no longer forming daily for house keeping ops (known as Strat Ops) and as fleets are now more casual you tend to not get as many active and participating in fleets.
INIT often goes through cycles of Sov Holding and Non-Sov holding. During the periods of Sov Holding we experience bloat, increase in the number of pilots mainly to take advantage of our space. This increase often comes with a decrease in skill and and increase in carebear deaths. The net profits however vastly outnumber the losses so it pans out
During periods of Non-Sov holding, We experience a reduction in players. The ones that remain are the loyal core members, while the ones only interested in the space move on to graze on other pastures. During this time the stuff that is considered more fun is done, small roaming, gatecrashing other peoples parties, hot drops and the like. However the momentum for these activities dwindles with the reduction in the need to login on a daily basis. Content has to be generated manually and as a result more pressure is placed on content generators to deliver. Eventually people become bored and want to hold sov again. Thus the cycle continues.
What triggers a cycle is most often EvE politics, say what you will but EvE is the best game for news generation out there, I have friends who do not even play but love reading the news about EvE. The events of which, happen the most in Null between null-sec entities.
The current war is nothing new to eve, its happened many times before. To fight one enemy more effectively you ally with another who shares the same enemy. This keeps happening until you end up with two large factions. Often North VS South, one side will "win" and wipe out the very reason their side exists, soon after the internal fighting will start and while that is going on the losing side will reform, rebuild and start again. Conflict within the north and south will wage on, winners will get larger, losers will disband and eventually you back to two dominant super powers, one north and one south. History often repeats itself in EvE Online.
Many people head into these conflicts green. Your first titan kill, your just pos bash, your alliances first region. These are all awesome experiences, After time however its just another pos, just another region (titan kills are still awesome btw ^^). Its no longer about the sov, carving a name out for your team. Its about the fights, some of which can be truly edge of your seat, adrenaline fueled rollercoster rides.
I've been allied and enemies of practically everyone in Null. There are some, that have earned my respect, others have earned my hatred. All have killed me, all have been killed by me. I've lived in the north, south, east and west. Nullsec and WH space too. The one thing I can't understand is why so many cling to empire, if its truly a lack of information I hope I can assist in removing that problem.
Bland |
Candi LeMew
Rolled Out
2679
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 03:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hello sir!
My name is Candi, and is a pleasure to meet you.
I have a question. Let's say you're relaxing in a station in null. It's your home system, there's not many people online, just you and one or two other folks but they're kinda adverse to PVP. Suddenly a couple of your friends report they've just been ganked while running a site in system. You investigate and the killmail shows you colleagues were killed by members of a wormhole corporation. Checking your scan window you discover that sure enough there's a new sig in system, and once you scan it you discover it's a wormhole. There's almost nobody active, but your friends want to go back to farming safely and ask for your help.
At your disposal is a cloaky Proteus, a Thanatos and two Archons.
What would you do sir?
"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty. |
|
Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
48
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 03:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Hello sir! What would you do sir?
In all honesty, I would move to another system if possible. The problem with wormholes is you can never tell how many people are active on the other side as local chat inside does not display players unless they speak in the channel. Wormholes do not last longer than 24 hours, so your safest bet would be to wait until the hole dies and do alternative activities until then.
You have two more options open, both will put you at greater risk;
1. Attempt to close the wormhole, K162 is an exit side of a hole. Find the side with another name and search it in google (most of the time will pop up with wormhole details, if not search in on a WH website) there is will tell you the max jump mass and total mass. Once the total mass has been reached a wormhole will die. There are some vague warning signs as to how old and how used a wormhole is, however your not going to get an exact number meaning you run the risk of being stuck on the wrong side when it collapses. That and hostiles in the wormhole can engage you at will.
2. Put up a large bubble on the hole, keep eyes on the inside of the hole with your cloaky proteus. Nulified ships such as T3 and interceptors will be able to warp instantly from the bubble but heavier ships and non-nuli t3 wil not be able to. Remember that they are limited to what they can bring through the wormholes max jumpable mass so three carriers that remote repair each other will likely not fall prey to anything they field. The main risk being them having friends with capitals near by.
End of the day, Never put isk generating ships at risk. I would just wait out the life of the wormhole/ head to another system until it dies.
Hope that helps
Bland
|
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4027
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 03:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
And...out of popcorn.
Sorry, but:
Type in ways a new player understand (What is a R64?, What is B-R?, What is hotdropping?, What is sov?, insert more) Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
49
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 03:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:And...out of popcorn.
Sorry, but:
Type in ways a new player understand (What is a R64?, What is B-R?, What is hotdropping?, What is sov?, insert more)
Sorry, I guess if anyone needs clarity on any points please feel free to ask. I'm trying not to be condescending and presume they know absolutely nothing. Most I've spoken with are actually quite well informed they just lack a full picture due to the inverted nature of player alliances.
R64's are the most profitable moons that can be mined B-R was the recent battle that saw $500,000 in ships lost. Sov stands for Sovereignty. players in Null can claim space for their alliances, they gain certain abilities for doing so.
If there are any more please point them out xD
Bland |
Candi LeMew
Rolled Out
2683
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 04:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thank you for your detailed answer, Mr Inquisitor!
I fully approve of, and agree with, your thoughtful advice sir. And thus I hereby endorse this thread, product and/or service.
Your second option is the best in my opinion. Keeping in mind though that the mass limits will depend greatly on the size of the wormhole system. If it's something like a Class 5 then the residents would have little problem bringing out caps of their own.
This scenario actually played out recently. Unfortunately the pilot in the real version wasn't as wise as yourself sir. They used the Proteus to scout the wormhole system and it's chain and promptly lost both ship and pod to one of our gangs. Waking in station in a fresh clone they decided this wormhole connection was a big threat and so promptly attempted to roll the hole away ... alone ... in a Thanatos. The Thanatos died in short order, and when the pilot's alts arrived late on scene to attempt to save it with the two Archons they nearly lost one of those as well. But, as you say, a small gang of subcaps is no match for the reps of a pair of Archons and we promptly left grid at this point.
Fly fun sir!
- Candi "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty. |
Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
50
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 04:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
and I'm glad to receive your endorsement Candi.
Having done a great deal of carrier killing myself I can assure you that a small group that knows what its doing can indeed kill carrier ratting squads. Most of the time, Ratting carriers are fit to maximize wallet ticks over defense. Often they will be running a single capital rep combined with an array of drone mods. Even if they do have remote reps and transfers, they are cumbersome creatures.
Its a simple case of removing threat, primary their drones until they are no longer a concern. Then remove their tank, Bumping them apart for example, its quite possible to push them out of remote repair range. Draining them of cap can also disrupt their ability to tank your damage. Stealth bombers often make short work of Carriers. Finally, more often than not people will abandon their fellow alliance member to their fate if given the opportunity to escape, by "accidentally" losing point on the carrier aligned out you can allow two to flee in favor of killing the 3rd.
Its actually quite shocking just how vulnerable carriers can be, that is why I would recommend not to use them once a system is compromised. Still many in my own alliance do not listen and pay for it as a direct result.
An example :) |
Candi LeMew
Rolled Out
2686
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 04:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bland Inquisitor wrote:and I'm glad to receive your endorsement Candi. Wow you....you are?
People never give me any credit sir. Well, apart from menial stuff, you know like acting as bait, being a meatshield, waxing my boss's legs and bikini line, styling her hair and brewing her coffee. I try to be more than that, but people just laugh and tell me to go eat a sandwich.
And I'm not even hungry.
Bland Inquisitor wrote:Having done a great deal of carrier killing myself I can assure you that a small group that knows what its doing can indeed kill carrier ratting squads. Most of the time, Ratting carriers are fit to maximize wallet ticks over defense. Often they will be running a single capital rep combined with an array of drone mods. Even if they do have remote reps and transfers, they are cumbersome creatures. Its a simple case of removing threat, primary their drones until they are no longer a concern. Then remove their tank, Bumping them apart for example, its quite possible to push them out of remote repair range. Draining them of cap can also disrupt their ability to tank your damage. Stealth bombers often make short work of Carriers. Finally, more often than not people will abandon their fellow alliance member to their fate if given the opportunity to escape, by "accidentally" losing point on the carrier aligned out you can allow two to flee in favor of killing the 3rd. Its actually quite shocking just how vulnerable carriers can be, that is why I would recommend not to use them once a system is compromised. Still many in my own alliance do not listen and pay for it as a direct result. An example :) Very wise words sir. You are clearly experienced, keen to help people and write well. I like you.
Had our little kitchen-sink fleet had more time to prepare, and more than one logi ship, maybe we'd have tried for those two Archons as well. But just like wormholes there are many unknowns in nullsec too - could a fleet of reinforcements be sitting in station one system away? Will a cyno go up any moment? Is a BLOPS incoming? Often better to be safe than sorry so we took our Proteus and Thanatos kills and went back home smiling.
- Candi "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty. |
The Pope V
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 08:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
One thing is certain the end of the so called "cold war" between CFC and N3 will shake the entirety of eve.
Bland Inquisitor:
Why do you think the cold war is going to end? |
Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
53
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 09:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
The Pope V wrote: One thing is certain the end of the so called "cold war" between CFC and N3 will shake the entirety of eve.
Bland Inquisitor:
Why do you think the cold war is going to end?
Good question. I believe it will end when one sides pilots have enough of stockpiling weapons and want some action, maybe it will hold off until winter (as winter is often more active on the wars front, more people staying indoors) but the inevitable is that people will want to use their 30-140b investments in super capitals and titans.
Its a powder keg awaiting a fuse, :) |
Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1393
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 09:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Oh my, so many terms I'm not familiar with...
K162? Is that a verb or a noun or both? Bubble? Nullified ships? T3? Max jumpable mass? Capitals? Class 5? Reps? Ratting? Wallet ticks? Drone mods? Primary? Cap? Point? Logi? Cyno? BLOPS?
NCQ&A...
I'm listening to-áBj+¦rk, playing EVE, eating fishsticks, and I'm cold....this is immersion gaming. |
Marc Durant
21
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 11:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Is Bliss still as dreamy as he was years ago, and how hasn't he burned out :) |
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Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
55
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 13:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
Marc Durant wrote:Is Bliss still as dreamy as he was years ago, and how hasn't he burned out :)
He assimilates new parts from the rejected applicants :P
Ok Vortexo, lets break this down for you :)
K162 This is the name given to the exit side of a wormhole. Holes do not actually generate an exit until the entrance side is scanned down, so if you find a K162 you know someone else has been there.
Bubble? Interdiction spheres and mobile warp-jammers. They look like giant bubbles on your screen and can prevent you from warping while inside them. They can also pull or push your position on the grid you land on depending on the celestial alignment. It sounds more complicated than it actually is. Imagine if you lined up three points in a straight line, imagine the 1st and 3rd points are stargates and the 2nd point is a "bubble" and is on the same grid (close enough) to the 1st point. Anyone warping from the 3rd point to the 1st point will end up instead at the 2nd point. This is why people in Null setup "ping spots" normally 150km+ (so you can warp from it) from a gate so you can avoid a drag or push bubble.
Nullified ships? Some ships are immune to bubble effects and can simply warp through them. Currently these would be T3 and Interceptors.
T3? T3 stands for Tech 3, currently these are limited to Strategic Cruisers.
Max jumpable mass? Wormholes are not as stable as gate travel, they randomly spawn as signatures you can scan down with probes. They have limited life spans with 3 variables. How much total mass can jump through it before it becomes unstable, the maximum amount of mass that can pass through in a single transfer and finally a natural life time period. Not normally longer than 24 hours.
Capitals? Out in low and null security space there is a class of vessel that are very large, they often have the ability to travel between systems with a jump drive and most cannot travel through gates. These include Freighters, Jump Freighters, Orca, Carriers, Dreadnaughts, Super Carriers and Titans. Super Carriers and Titan are so large that the cannot even dock in stations!
Class 5? More wormhole stuff, think of a wormholes class as being its difficulty level. They range from C1 to C6 and scale not only in difficulty but in rewards. Wormholes are considered the end-game for exploration in eve, the systems do not have gates and you must manually scan down all the connections and sites within each system via probes. Its considered very dangerous space but the rewards are the best paying in eve.
Reps? Reps are what heal you, shield boosters and armor repairers. Remote Reps being shield transfers and armor transfers, sometimes people can also include capacitor transfers known as cap transfers for short.
Ratting? Ratting is the name given to the most basic method of isk generation. Killing NPC which have bounties. The difficulty of belt and anomaly "rats" (rats = bounty NPC) scales from hi-sec to lowsec to Null. In Null space you can gain 60 million isk an hour from just shooting NPC.
Wallet ticks? Every 20 minutes your wallet is updated with all the bounties you have collected during that period of time. When ratting for an hour then, you will receive 3 wallet ticks. Adding these three together will work out your isk and hour. Average isk/h ranges from around 60 - 100m. Some players however gain far more, wormhole dwellers for example can make over 500 million an hour with a decent team.
Drone mods? There are High, medium and low slots for modules on each ship. Drone Modules are the ones that effect your drones. They can increase their speed, damage and even the amount you can field (although that is limited to capitals).
Primary? Primary target, often called out or broadcasted by a fleet commander so everyone focuses fire.
Cap? Capacitor, the power of your ship.
Point? Your ship has a warp strength, often that is 1. Modules such as warp disruptor and scramblers effectively remove 1 or 2 of your warp strength. If your warp strength reaches 0 your ship will not be able to warp.
Logi? Logistics vessels, these are dedicated remote repair ships that are the healer class in EvE.
Cyno? Cynosural Fields are what capital ships lock onto in order to jump between systems. The distance they can jump is set in light years. Cynosural Field Generator's are high slot modules that consume fuel in the form of liquid ozone and lock down your ship for 5 minutes. Often this leaves ships vunerable to attack as cyno are also system wide beacons.
BLOPS? Covert Cynosural Fields are used by black ops battleships to bridge other specialist ships to other systems, Covert cyno are more discreet than regular cyno. They take much less time and do not provide a beacon for the entire system.
|
William Ruben
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
4
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 17:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Of course not all null corps are that concerned with the metagame. |
voetius
BITB Support Services
237
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 18:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
Excellent idea OP, I know when I started I had no real idea what was null sec was like.
A handy reference for Eve terminology / slang / acronyms can be found here : https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Glossary
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Greeneggs N'Ham
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 18:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
How common/uncommon is it for nullsec residents to just have one char?
I've been flying around now for almost a year. Don't really see myself as a player for alts. Most vets in nullsec seems to view an alt or two as mandatory. Is this true/false? Could you elaborate on the topic?
|
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
277
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 19:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Only reason to have an alt is to train it for things that you don't have time to train with your main or you don't want to bind your main toon forever to a specific task. So we have super cap alts, industry alts, cyno alts, trade hub alts or in some cases even PvP alts (less SP = cheaper head to lose). What having an alt provides is a convenience not something that everyone must have. |
Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1393
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 20:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Well, good job OP. You explain EVE terms concisely and informatively. You know them, and I know them, but a new player might not be familiar with them. I am glad to be of assistance to you by providing an opportunity to you to present such info, furthering your purpose.(I look forward to your sleeper-loot-fueled billion isk token of appreciation that I'm sure is forthcoming... )
I'm listening to-áBj+¦rk, playing EVE, eating fishsticks, and I'm cold....this is immersion gaming. |
Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
57
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 21:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Greeneggs N'Ham wrote:How common/uncommon is it for nullsec residents to just have one char?
I've been flying around now for almost a year. Don't really see myself as a player for alts. Most vets in nullsec seems to view an alt or two as mandatory. Is this true/false? Could you elaborate on the topic?
Personally I normally stick to a single char. I pay with my account(s) with plex so I do not always have multiple accounts active. If you work hard and save up isk, you can leap frog a few years of training by purchasing a character legally on the character bazaar forums, its protected by CCP and is the only scam proof trading in EvE.
If your going to be playing on a single account (like me) then learning how to buy and sell characters can not only net you some nice money but can see you in a 40-50m skillpoint character with relative ease. Its worth checking out, just do not plex to buy characters, if you remove the grind you remove your own content, often the pursuit of a goal is often more engaging than achieving it. |
Greeneggs N'Ham
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 21:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
That's interesting. Are there any guides to buying and selling characters for profit? I don't yet have the isk to make those kinds of investment, but it sounds like minimal effort stuff that could free me from the gore of standing grinds and building/trading stuff eventually. |
Bland Inquisitor
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
57
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 21:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
check out the sticky posts in that section. I wrote an internal guide for my alliance, however it is a little too sensitive for public release. Its simple trade mechanics however, buy cheap sell expensive :) |
Telden Molarin
Alchemy Corp
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.17 23:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote: I try to be more than that, but people just laugh and tell me to go eat a sandwich.
Your corp has catering?
Tell me more ...
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