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Abadayos
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2014.06.18 08:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I have not ice minded in quite possibly 3-4 years (would of been roughly a yeah before the ice belt change from permanent to annoms) I am wanting to get back into it in a very small way. However when I went out to do some mining I came to a belt that had only spawned 5-10 mins previosuly (I know cos I was checking it out/camping it sort of). Now when I warped to it I find3 orcas, an assortment of 15 machs/skiffs/retrievers and a gal freighter sitting in the belt munching it away at an alarming rate. I went off, book marked the furthest ice block away, warp out then warp back.
Settling into my small rock to chew on I did some inspecting and found out the entire group was 1 corp (hardly surprising) but also noticed that there where 3 groups of 5 miners with an orca that all beam onto a new rock all at teh same time, then when it popped, spent 5-10 minutes idling. Pretty much confirming for me it was a ISO Boxer that was running a bot program.
Fair enough, it happens, I'm not too upset (got 3 full retriever loads worth of ice in the end) but was a little shocking.
Now the real question:
As a lower skilled ice miner (not able to use T2 ice harvesters/upgrades but can fly exhumers IV) is it worth skilling up for T2's when most crap will be vaccuumed up before I get much? Would it be worth skilling up an alt on my other account to have 2 ice miners (duel over for ore mining too so not a total waste)?
Also out of all the mining ships, which is the better one considering not perfect stats and that has decent ore hold (not a hulk..all that hauling would drive me nuts). Would it be a Mach/retriever for cargo and cov/hulk for pure output?
I'm only asking cos teh new updates to the mining ships may have made things all a bit squiffy from what it was previously.
Thanks |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1455
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Posted - 2014.06.18 08:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
there is plenty of uncontested ice in quiet lowsec, npc nullsec and sov nullsec systems GRRR Goons |
Abadayos
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 08:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:there is plenty of uncontested ice in quiet lowsec, npc nullsec and sov nullsec systems
True, however renting is pointless and LS does not suit me when I want to mine ice (semi afk or watching my other account doing pvp or what have you).
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Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
124
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Posted - 2014.06.18 09:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bot/ISBoxer fleets and in particular the 'freighter mining' variety are indeed the bane of the mining community. But they can be dealt with at a relatively small cost in ISK and training time if you can make the effort. Machinaws and especially Retrievers can be ganked fairly easily with a single Catalyst usually. Make sure to put the kiils up on a killboard such as EVE KILL. This then makes them much more visible to the ganking community. If they are in a player run corp it is likely they will be wardecced multiple times.
In addition the set up you describe means they might be using jet cans. These can be stolen with a warp stabbed T1 hauler with a microwarpdrive on it to speed up the getaway. Use the one with the extra ore hold to empty two jet cans at a time. Remember you can also bump them out of range with a cruiser with a microwarpdrive module fitted. After not much time they will take the hint and move on.
Sounds like you will be best off with the Retriever for mining. Or Procurer if you are getting 'trouble'. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1952
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 09:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
ISBoxer != bot. This could just be one guy multiboxing with use of good old alt+tab and that's why he drilled same rocks on few clients and had some idle time when rock popped.
Just saying. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Abadayos
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 10:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:ISBoxer != bot. This could just be one guy multiboxing with use of good old alt+tab and that's why he drilled same rocks on few clients and had some idle time when rock popped.
Just saying.
I do know ISO boxer is not a bot program but rather a macro binding multi-box program that uses player input whilst at the computer and the bots are obviously automatic programs without player control.
However I lump them together because their end result is the same: Locust swarm of miners destroying an ice belt in under 45 minutes. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1952
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 11:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Well, my skiff + orca + miasmos (future second skiff) are also faster at crunching rocks than your solo exhumer and all multiboxing I do is alt+tab and click. I'm not saying he wasn't using ISBoxer, just saying that not every multiboxer is a bot/input copying user :)
As for ships: hulk/covetor only when you have dedicated hauler/orca to dump your yield into, mac/retriever for solo due to huge ore bays and proc/skiff for best tanks and "reasonable" ore bays (proc 12k, skiff 15k m3).
I personally use skiff tanked almost at max (+ max tanked orca) but sometimes I switch to covetor when I feel like juggling 3 strips and don't care about losing it. But I am always watching my mining screen, even if orca is partially covered with web browser or movie.
You need to decide which ship "philosophy" suits you best and just use it. You will never win race against multiboxers (scripted or not) but you can make max out of your single miner because you don't have to share your focus on multiple actions. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Abadayos
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2014.06.18 11:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
That's a good point.
I'll stick with the retriever then, maybe skill up another on the other account and go from there.
I have seen groups of 2-4 people swoop into the anomm in suicide ships and take out a mach or two before going down so I'm not too keen on going a T2 mining ship |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1952
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 13:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
"Mack" unless you found somebody mining in machariels in which case you should suicide him/them :)
If you have second account and character free to train for second miner I would give it a try because with cycle times and ore bays on retrievers you will have plenty of time to micromanage strips to avoid wasting cycles. And with fleet bonus even without orca boosts you will get slight improvement to yields.
Again, you won't win against hardcore guys but you will get a chance to steal bigger chunks from under their noses. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 18:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Abadayos wrote:As a lower skilled ice miner (not able to use T2 ice harvesters/upgrades but can fly exhumers IV) is it worth skilling up for T2's when most crap will be vaccuumed up before I get much? Would it be worth skilling up an alt on my other account to have 2 ice miners (duel over for ore mining too so not a total waste)?
Also out of all the mining ships, which is the better one considering not perfect stats and that has decent ore hold (not a hulk..all that hauling would drive me nuts). Would it be a Mach/retriever for cargo and cov/hulk for pure output?
Most ice belts will have some mining operations working them but usually there is plenty of room left for solo miners. Many of the operations seem to use isobox, but I don't think that many are really bots - maybe different in Null where no one is around to complain.
Check some nearby ice belts (use Dotlan to find) or try a different time of day. Depending on what you think of the metagame, you could pay a fee (extortion) to CODE and mine in one of the areas they police (harass) that tend to have fewer miners.
If you already have an exhumer then I think T2 ice havesters & upgrades are worth it. There is also an ice harvesting rig that will increase your yield. A hulk is only viable for fleet ops. Keep the Skiff in mind if you are worried about safety while mining.
p.s. If you make friends with the regulars you may be able to get an invite to an Orca fleet which will increase your yield 30-40%.
p.p.s. there are refining changes coming if you are used to doing that. |
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Robert Morningstar
Morningstar Excavations LTD Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
70
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Posted - 2014.06.18 20:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shiloh Templeton wrote:Abadayos wrote:As a lower skilled ice miner (not able to use T2 ice harvesters/upgrades but can fly exhumers IV) is it worth skilling up for T2's when most crap will be vaccuumed up before I get much? Would it be worth skilling up an alt on my other account to have 2 ice miners (duel over for ore mining too so not a total waste)?
Also out of all the mining ships, which is the better one considering not perfect stats and that has decent ore hold (not a hulk..all that hauling would drive me nuts). Would it be a Mach/retriever for cargo and cov/hulk for pure output?
Most ice belts will have some mining operations working them but usually there is plenty of room left for solo miners. Many of the operations seem to use isobox, but I don't think that many are really bots - maybe different in Null where no one is around to complain. Check some nearby ice belts (use Dotlan to find) or try a different time of day. Depending on what you think of the metagame, you could pay a fee (extortion) to CODE and mine in one of the areas they police (harass) that tend to have fewer miners. If you already have an exhumer then I think T2 ice havesters & upgrades are worth it. There is also an ice harvesting rig that will increase your yield. A hulk is only viable for fleet ops. Keep the Skiff in mind if you are worried about safety while mining. p.s. If you make friends with the regulars you may be able to get an invite to an Orca fleet which will increase your yield 30-40%. p.p.s. there are refining changes coming if you are used to doing that.
Take the middle road 1 hulk 1 Mac use the mac as the jc for the hulk with added imput carry 1 very small useless item (bookmark in the hold to start the jc and only use to to shift from hulk to mac when no one is in range except you |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
27
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 02:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Abadayos wrote:So I have not ice minded in quite possibly 3-4 years (would of been roughly a yeah before the ice belt change from permanent to annoms) I am wanting to get back into it in a very small way. However when I went out to do some mining I came to a belt that had only spawned 5-10 mins previosuly (I know cos I was checking it out/camping it sort of). Now when I warped to it I find3 orcas, an assortment of 15 machs/skiffs/retrievers and a gal freighter sitting in the belt munching it away at an alarming rate. I went off, book marked the furthest ice block away, warp out then warp back.
Settling into my small rock to chew on I did some inspecting and found out the entire group was 1 corp (hardly surprising) but also noticed that there where 3 groups of 5 miners with an orca that all beam onto a new rock all at teh same time, then when it popped, spent 5-10 minutes idling. Pretty much confirming for me it was a ISO Boxer that was running a bot program.
Fair enough, it happens, I'm not too upset (got 3 full retriever loads worth of ice in the end) but was a little shocking.
Now the real question:
As a lower skilled ice miner (not able to use T2 ice harvesters/upgrades but can fly exhumers IV) is it worth skilling up for T2's when most crap will be vaccuumed up before I get much? Would it be worth skilling up an alt on my other account to have 2 ice miners (duel over for ore mining too so not a total waste)?
Also out of all the mining ships, which is the better one considering not perfect stats and that has decent ore hold (not a hulk..all that hauling would drive me nuts). Would it be a Mach/retriever for cargo and cov/hulk for pure output?
I'm only asking cos teh new updates to the mining ships may have made things all a bit squiffy from what it was previously.
Thanks
I ice mine in high sec with 2 miners and a booster. Technically 3 miners would actually get me more ISK/hr but my 3rd account just isn't concepted for training for mining anywhere in the near future.
To address your frustration, yeah pretty much all high sec ice systems have someone around who is making a central part of their living off it and/or has been around long enough and has the toons to get a really good scheme going. However, normally you'll only find one of those groups/corps/players per area. And they are generally not on every time zone. The times when they are not around the belts will be mined by soloers and smaller corps. I tend to see both crowds in the systems I mine in. The result is that very few places are never ever at any time worth mining, and very few places will be open and chock full of ice all the time. You have to get there when the getting is good and when it's not, go somewhere else.
There is currently a risk/reward imbalance with mining in Eve in general, with high sec offering an acceptable risk/reward for most casual care bear and low resource soloers and groups. Null sec is really only worth mining in if you have a really great set up in terms of your territory, alliance, political situation, etc. Low sec really just isn't worth mining in for pretty much anybody. Now there is a Rorqual change on the horizon that has the potential to adjust this risk/reward ratio, and hopefully, if it goes well, a lot of these super advanced and established high sec ice miners will get Rorquals and start mining in low sec. It's just a hope.
In general, ice mining is possible, but not a dream come true. There is competition. But I have a good time at it and as a 3-account miner I would say I am not super elite or anything. So yeah, bottom line is if you want to do it, go for it. You'll have to do some thinking and strategy, maybe set up barges and jump clones in a few areas that you have scouted out so if you log in to one area and see your ISBoxer friend you can JC somewhere else that's better. But that'll be all on you to figure out. Eve is a game you must play. |
Clara Pond
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 04:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
I would encourage the OP to contact their friendly neighbourhood CODE agent and advise them of the location and composition of the botting operation. We have trained specialists in this field waiting to take your call. |
Abadayos
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 05:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Clara Pond wrote:I would encourage the OP to contact their friendly neighbourhood CODE agent and advise them of the location and composition of the botting operation. We have trained specialists in this field waiting to take your call.
Wouldn't that be kind of counter productive if I also wanted to mine said Ice as I would also be a target.
Just saying.... |
Kalorned
Psychedelic Llamas
1
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 05:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Abadayos wrote:Clara Pond wrote:I would encourage the OP to contact their friendly neighbourhood CODE agent and advise them of the location and composition of the botting operation. We have trained specialists in this field waiting to take your call. Wouldn't that be kind of counter productive if I also wanted to mine said Ice as I would also be a target. Just saying....
It wouldn't be an issue if you simply obtained a mining permit for 10m ISK. They're good for 1 year as well, so there's that going for it. |
Clara Pond
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
62
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 07:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Abadayos wrote:Wouldn't that be kind of counter productive if I also wanted to mine said Ice as I would also be a target.
Kalorned is quite right: as a Code-compliant licensee you would be exempt from all New Order enforcement operations, and would in fact benefit from the reduction in competition. Humans 1, Bots 0.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3123
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 07:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kalorned wrote: It wouldn't be an issue if you simply obtained a mining permit for 10m ISK. They're good for 1 year as well, so there's that going for it.
Exactly, buy a permit, and report your rivals to the proper authorities.
I understand you probably do not want to gank on your mining character (killright issues, etc) but you might want to consider training them to bump rivals. Bumping can be done with terrible skills in a Coercer with a 10MN MWD (requires fitting mods) although higher skills and a Stabber Fleet Issue with a 100MN MWD gets better results.
It's hilarious fun and will drive your competition mad. This is, of course, a very good thing for you. If they shoot you, take the ice from their hull after they are CONCORDED and make the killright open to CODE. for free. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=346564 - a proposal to overhaul the Logistics skill https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Abadayos
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 08:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kalorned wrote:Abadayos wrote:Clara Pond wrote:I would encourage the OP to contact their friendly neighbourhood CODE agent and advise them of the location and composition of the botting operation. We have trained specialists in this field waiting to take your call. Wouldn't that be kind of counter productive if I also wanted to mine said Ice as I would also be a target. Just saying.... It wouldn't be an issue if you simply obtained a mining permit for 10m ISK. They're good for 1 year as well, so there's that going for it.
And if the person/people that already mine in the belt have a license then it's 10 mill down the drain (granted it's 5 minutes work tops to make 10 mill but you get the idea). It would also not solve the 'problem' if they are already a license holder now would it? Just playing devils advocate is all.
I may look into it but just saying, the argument has flaws. |
Clara Pond
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
62
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 23:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Abadayos wrote: And if the person/people that already mine in the belt have a license then it's 10 mill down the drain (granted it's 5 minutes work tops to make 10 mill but you get the idea). It would also not solve the 'problem' if they are already a license holder now would it? Just playing devils advocate is all..
10M isk on the very best tanking module money can buy is hardly wasted. And if they are licensees, but violating the Code by botting, their licenses may be revoked in the traditional manner. |
MurderSurgeon
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.20 15:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bethan Le Troix wrote:Bot/ISBoxer fleets and in particular the 'freighter mining' variety are indeed the bane of the mining community. But they can be dealt with at a relatively small cost in ISK and training time if you can make the effort. Machinaws and especially Retrievers can be ganked fairly easily with a single Catalyst usually. Make sure to put the kiils up on a killboard such as EVE KILL. This then makes them much more visible to the ganking community. If they are in a player run corp it is likely they will be wardecced multiple times.
In addition the set up you describe means they might be using jet cans. These can be stolen with a warp stabbed T1 hauler with a microwarpdrive on it to speed up the getaway. Use the one with the extra ore hold to empty two jet cans at a time. Remember you can also bump them out of range with a cruiser with a microwarpdrive module fitted. After not much time they will take the hint and move on.
Sounds like you will be best off with the Retriever for mining. Or Procurer if you are getting 'trouble'.
While we're on the subject, how effective would a smart bombing run be if you'd rather target the is boxing lump? |
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
637
|
Posted - 2014.06.20 21:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Quote:Settling into my small rock to chew on I did some inspecting and found out the entire group was 1 corp (hardly surprising) but also noticed that there where 3 groups of 5 miners with an orca that all beam onto a new rock all at teh same time, then when it popped, spent 5-10 minutes idling. Pretty much confirming for me it was a ISO Boxer that was running a bot program.
This does not confirm botting (use of third party software). -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Luke Perceptinator
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 14:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
Shiloh Templeton wrote:Most ice belts will have some mining operations working them but usually there is plenty of room left for solo miners. Many of the operations seem to use isobox, but I don't think that many are really bots - maybe different in Null where no one is around to complain.
What game are you playing? My timezone there is NO ice during the week, I play another game now. Null sec, get real man. |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2445
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 15:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Luke Perceptinator wrote:Shiloh Templeton wrote:Most ice belts will have some mining operations working them but usually there is plenty of room left for solo miners. Many of the operations seem to use isobox, but I don't think that many are really bots - maybe different in Null where no one is around to complain. What game are you playing? My timezone there is NO ice during the week, I play another game now. Null sec, get real man.
it respawns four hours after it was depleted ... maybe you just have bad timing. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2001
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 19:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
Without large multiboxing fleets to break up, where would I get my entertainment? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
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