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Nakovi Kitsune
Omega Force Inc
0
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Posted - 2014.06.21 06:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
I really, really, really want to like this ship. I like hybrids, and the new look is great. But the bonuses just don't make sense to me. A sniper boat with a resist bonus? IMO, if you're going to sit at range, there's much better options. HACs and especially resist bonus boats really seem purposed for getting up close and personal.
So what purpose does the Eagle serve? Its DPS is too low to brawl. Deimos blows it out of the water there. As a sniper, the Ishtar or Cerberus can out damage it at range. I don't think I've ever seen anyone even fly one. Is there some use I'm just not seeing?
If there isn't, how do you fix it? Add some drone bandwidth? Drop some of the range bonus for something else (because really, what does anybody need 41km optimal with antimatter for?) |
Paranoid Loyd
723
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Posted - 2014.06.21 06:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
It looks like Tadas Bindas is the guy you need to talk to. "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
elitatwo
Congregatio
239
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Posted - 2014.06.21 07:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
I like the Eagle and I have liked the Eagle even before she became really sexy.
Now the thing is, you have two options now with the Eagle, railguns and blasters. Both options require diffenrent kinds of movement.
At close range railguns do not perform very good, even if your fitting screen is telling you otherwise.
Blasters on the other hand are are amazing at closer range and on the Eagle even up to the edge of long point range.
Oh, please do not fit a long point on the Eagle, she really doesn't agree with that. You will have enough room to fit both a scram and a web, which will be the end of most frigates as soon as you load antimatter.
For everything else, like some vagabond that wants to kite you because they are so fast and stuff, load NULL M and they will start rethink that approach very quickly.
Now that all hacs can burn all day long with an mwd on, they all scream for active tanks, which in all eight cases can be really strong, but the Eagle can also sport a very strong buffer tank.
Long story short, think of the Eagle like a shield tanked Deimos, which can also do scary things with railguns and blasters.
Godspeed signature |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1239
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Posted - 2014.06.21 14:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nakovi Kitsune wrote:Drop some of the range bonus for something else (because really, what does anybody need 41km optimal with antimatter for?)
So you can make a very tough fleet sHAC with good DPS and superior damage projection to a Deimos or Zealot. But not to an Ishtar, which is probably why nobody uses it. E.g.:
[Eagle, Rail AB] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
10MN Afterburner II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Field II Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II
67k EHP, 482 DPS at 41/15 km. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
125
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Posted - 2014.06.21 14:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
You can fit a sniper Eagle to do 300dps+ at 180km or 500dps+ with 85km optimal, using medium failguns that plough light tackle.
The resist bonus and relatively small sig make it exceptionally good as a counter-sniper.
Stop being terrible. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
580
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Posted - 2014.06.21 16:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
The Eagle does 90% the dmg the Ferox does at a third more range.
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Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
409
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Posted - 2014.06.21 16:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Nakovi Kitsune wrote:Drop some of the range bonus for something else (because really, what does anybody need 41km optimal with antimatter for?) So you can make a very tough fleet sHAC with good DPS and superior damage projection to a Deimos or Zealot. But not to an Ishtar, which is probably why nobody uses it. E.g.: [Eagle, Rail AB] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 10MN Afterburner II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Field II Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II 67k EHP, 482 DPS at 41/15 km.
Not quite the fit I'd use, but right in concept. It is a very good sniper... There are just other, even better snipers in existence. With medium railguns being what they are, they should be on top when the next balance pass nerfs the ishtar! |
Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
47
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Posted - 2014.06.21 17:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Looks like the Tengu also overshadow it in the sniper role. |
Tilo Rhywald
Corpus Alienum Game 0f Tears
52
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Posted - 2014.06.21 18:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you use it correctly, any range bonus is a damage bonus. The Eagle is a very good ship that reacts extremely well to some faction/DED-pimping - that's when it becomes really great.
Also... sniping Tengu? |
Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
339
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Posted - 2014.06.21 20:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tilo Rhywald wrote:If you use it correctly, any range bonus is a damage bonus. The Eagle is a very good ship that reacts extremely well to some faction/DED-pimping - that's when it becomes really great. Also... sniping Tengu?
Rail Tengus are a monstrous fleet doctrine. Imagine Rokhs, except with cruiser-sized tracking and signature radius (and a bonus to Afterburner speed). I don't know if I'd quite all them snipers, since they are probably looking to engage closer to Antimatter range where they can make the most of their signature and tracking advantages, so they certainly have the ability to play with distance. A Rail Eagle fit the same way is almost as good for half the price and with no skill losses on death, but it's not quite ridiculous enough to counteract the level of bullshit that is the Ishtar.
Actually, it might still be competitive if it wasn't pinned into Kin/Therm damage, but any ship that can't help shooting into an Ishtar's strongest resistances is sort of consigned to the benches in this meta.
CCP Please ******* nerf Ishtars. |
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Jazmyn Stone
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
163
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Posted - 2014.06.21 20:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
I like the Ferox, and I like the Eagle (now that it has great looks), and I like the Tengu.
In the Eagle, I get 521dps, fall-off is 62km, optimal is 43.
In the Ferox, I get 607dps, fall-off is 50km, optimal is 31.
In the Tengu, I get 542dps, fall-off is 60km, optimal is 41.
These numbers come from similar fits for all three using 250mm T2 rails, 4xMFS II, Caldari antimatter, and Tracking Comp. II with optimal range script.
In some missions, I also carry Caldari Thorium, then, e.i. my Ferox has 455dps, but it's fall-off is 73km, and optimal is 54km.
With the thorium, the Tengu only has 407dps, but it's fall-off is 91km, with optimal at 72; the Eagle does 390dps, fall-off is 95m, optimal is 76km.
I do change some mods here and there depending on missions, but these remain the same.
Some pesky close-orbiting frigates can't be hit with-out drones, but by using other mods, they can be dealt with.
So, that's a quick comparison
-Jaz
Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2105
|
Posted - 2014.06.21 21:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jazmyn Stone wrote: I like the Ferox, and I like the Eagle (now that it has great looks), and I like the Tengu.
In the Eagle, I get 521dps, fall-off is 62km, optimal is 43.
In the Ferox, I get 607dps, fall-off is 50km, optimal is 31.
In the Tengu, I get 542dps, fall-off is 60km, optimal is 41.
These numbers come from similar fits for all three using 250mm T2 rails, 4xMFS II, Caldari antimatter, and Tracking Comp. II with optimal range script.
In some missions, I also carry Caldari Thorium, then, e.i. my Ferox has 455dps, but it's fall-off is 73km, and optimal is 54km.
With the thorium, the Tengu only has 407dps, but it's fall-off is 91km, with optimal at 72; the Eagle does 390dps, fall-off is 95m, optimal is 76km.
I do change some mods here and there depending on missions, but these remain the same.
Some pesky close-orbiting frigates can't be hit with-out drones, but by using other mods, they can be dealt with.
So, that's a quick comparison
Just to be clear, the numbers you're posting are optimal and optimal + falloff, right? Not just raw falloff? Because if the latter I have some serious reconsidering to do. Might have to actually fire up EFT and do some work at that point.
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Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
339
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Posted - 2014.06.21 21:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Yes, that's optimal + falloff. The Tengu and Eagle have two 50% optimal bonuses, so that's where the vast majority of their range comes from. |
Jazmyn Stone
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
163
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Posted - 2014.06.22 00:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
The numbers that I'm using, come from the pop-up window when I hover the curser over the 250mm railgun module. This is in space with the tracking comp on with range script.
What is says in the window is:
Falloff range within 62km
Optimal range within 43km
This is for the Eagle using Caldari antimatter.
Back in the hanger the window shows:
Falloff range with 53km.
Optimal range within 37km.
I'm not implying anything else, just showing actual differences, for me with my skills and implants, for each of these ships. Other pilots will get other numbers.
Hoped that helped.
-Jaz Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there. |
Dato Koppla
Elite Guards
617
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Posted - 2014.06.22 00:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
TLDR:
All HACs/T3s are decent, but the Ishtar trumps them all. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2228
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Posted - 2014.06.22 01:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Eagle + links + logi = pretty ******* ******** tank numbers, BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Tilo Rhywald
Corpus Alienum Game 0f Tears
52
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Posted - 2014.06.22 07:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Voyager Arran wrote:Tilo Rhywald wrote:If you use it correctly, any range bonus is a damage bonus. The Eagle is a very good ship that reacts extremely well to some faction/DED-pimping - that's when it becomes really great. Also... sniping Tengu? Rail Tengus are a monstrous fleet doctrine. Imagine Rokhs, except with cruiser-sized tracking and signature radius (and a bonus to Afterburner speed). I don't know if I'd quite all them snipers, since they are probably looking to engage closer to Antimatter range where they can make the most of their signature and tracking advantages, but they certainly have the ability to play with distance. A Rail Eagle fit the same way is almost as good for half the price and with no skill losses on death, but it's not quite ridiculous enough to counteract the level of bullshit that is the Ishtar. Actually, it might still be competitive if it wasn't pinned into Kin/Therm damage, but any ship that can't help shooting into an Ishtar's strongest resistances is sort of consigned to the benches in this meta. CCP Please ******* nerf Ishtars. There is so much fun, interesting stuff that people can't even bother trying because it will just get rolled over by a fleet of 700 DPS perma-MWD bullshit boats.
...the things that happen when away a few months. Thanks for the clarification. =] Cheers! |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15047
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Posted - 2014.06.22 12:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
as someone who endured the criticism while believing in the rail/drone/shield HAC combo... the ishtar rant amuses me. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Nakovi Kitsune
Omega Force Inc
0
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Posted - 2014.06.22 13:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Eagle + links + logi = pretty ******* ******** tank numbers,
But really, what ship isn't great with links and logi support? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15048
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Posted - 2014.06.22 13:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
I think you're right though, you could get away with a naga if sniping and the resist bonus is a waste. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories Vertical.
638
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Posted - 2014.06.22 15:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:looks amazing though. it's my favorite Moa variant, in terms of appearance.
Are you ignoring the onyx? "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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Rain6637
Team Evil
15048
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Posted - 2014.06.22 16:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
no i like the kaalakiota shiny black and red. but on the Moa and the way the stripes were applied, I think the eagle edges out. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
2230
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Posted - 2014.06.22 20:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nakovi Kitsune wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Eagle + links + logi = pretty ******* ******** tank numbers, But really, what ship isn't great with links and logi support?
I mean for gangs / fleets obviously
Eagle isn't great as a solo ship. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
343
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Posted - 2014.06.22 20:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nakovi Kitsune wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Eagle + links + logi = pretty ******* ******** tank numbers, But really, what ship isn't great with links and logi support?
You are missing the point. We're looking at the Eagle as a potential fleet ship, where boosts, logi, and ewar support are to be expected. In that situation, its excellent buffer and high resists means it has a much better capacity to survive under concentrated fire than most other HACs, and it has reasonably strong raw damage with solid projection to back it up.
It's not going to kite people like a Vagabond, but it's not trying to be that kind of ship. |
Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
47
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Posted - 2014.06.22 21:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
The Rail Tengu has more dps and pretty muche double the EHP.
This more than make up for the slight difference in maximum range and that's why the eagle only see anecdotal usage. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15048
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Posted - 2014.06.22 21:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
my roommate had nerdgasms over his rail eagle while we were in a c5 magnetar, but it's hard not to love a flat 85% damage bonus on anything. he also has a main that is specialized in chimera/phoenix, and basically the poor guy is waiting for the caldari boat to sail... has been for 8, 9 years now
DON'T BE HIM President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
344
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Posted - 2014.06.22 21:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Odithia wrote:The Rail Tengu has more dps and pretty muche double the EHP.
This more than make up for the slight difference in maximum range and that's why the eagle only see anecdotal usage.
Eagles are significantly cheaper than Tengus, don't cost skillpoints when they die, and can get you most of the damage with enough tank to handle midsized engagements. The Tengu is objectively better at the same thing, but the difference in investment is enough that people would probably fly Eagle fleets as a non-strategic doctrine if Ishtars didn't exist. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15049
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Posted - 2014.06.22 21:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
related: rail tengus video
BR
though I do resent being asked to pilot T3s, due to the SP loss. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
226
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Posted - 2014.06.23 06:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Nobody flies the Eagle because:
1. Sniping past 150 km is not relevant because they can probe you down and warp to whatever range they want.
2. The Ishtar does 600 DPS at 130km, which is probably close to triple the Eagle's DPS at that range with much better tracking. Its also significantly better than the DPS of any battleship at that range, with probably ten times the tracking compared to T2 large long range ammo. It's completely out of range of any medium sized weapon system that's not shooting directly into its T2 resists. Large artillery cant track it and large lasers take so much PG you need AWU V to fit an Apoc with only 7 guns.
The Ishtar can also deploy Gardes or Ogres and close range brawl on the same fit, something the Eagle definitely can't do.
I know I post this in a lot of threads, but if you're flying a HAC thats not an Ishtar, you're doing it wrong. The Ishtar is better than your current ship at literally everything you could be doing. |
Odithia
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
47
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Posted - 2014.06.23 08:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
Voyager Arran wrote:Odithia wrote:The Rail Tengu has more dps and pretty muche double the EHP.
This more than make up for the slight difference in maximum range and that's why the eagle only see anecdotal usage. Eagles are significantly cheaper than Tengus, don't cost skillpoints when they die, and can get you most of the damage with enough tank to handle midsized engagements. The Tengu is objectively better at the same thing, but the difference in investment is enough that people would probably fly Eagle fleets as a non-strategic doctrine if Ishtars didn't exist. Yet the price increase is a bargain for the gain in performance, when you go from Moa to Eagle it's a x17, when you go from eagle to tengu it's less than x2. The skill penalty is indeed a big deterrent for young players, but a minor inconvenience to bitervets.
And all are indeed lackluster when compared to the mighty Ishtar. When I was trying to find something to counter them I thought about something with good damage application and projection, the Apocalypse seemed nice until I realised it does much less damage, ridiculous. Looks like the only counter to Ishtar is more ishtars. Maybe a faction 100mn Ab Phantasm fleet could do the trick but the price and skill requirements make it hard to field. |
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