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Rain6637
Team Evil
15050
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Posted - 2014.06.23 13:31:00 -
[31] - Quote
nvm, eagle's not that expensive. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
226
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Posted - 2014.06.23 13:33:00 -
[32] - Quote
Odithia wrote:The skill penalty is indeed a big deterrent for young players, but a minor inconvenience to bitervets.
And all are indeed lackluster when compared to the mighty Ishtar. When I was trying to find something to counter them I thought about something with good damage application and projection, the Apocalypse seemed nice until I realised it does much less damage, ridiculous. Looks like the only counter to Ishtar is more ishtars.
Ironically, the absolutely ridiculous SP requirement of the do-everything Ishtar is the only thing keeping it remotely balanced. There aren't any meta 4 drones that one can use as a cheap middle ground between crappy T1 and T2 drones other than expensive faction drones, so T2 are pretty mandatory. For comparison, to fly a reasonably effective fleet BS you just need Large Racial Turret V and Sharpshooting V. For an Ishtar, you need:
1. Cruiser V and Energy Grid Upgrades V to fly the ship. 2. HAC V to get drone control past 130km with two DLAs. 3. Drone Avionics V for T2 DLAs. 4. Light, Medium, Heavy, and Sentry Drone Operation V to use a full complement of T2 weapons. 5. Four different racial spec skills for your drones to train to at least IV. 6. Drone Sharpshooting V to use T2 drone range/tracking mods and to get that last few km of optimal out of your Wardens. 7. Drone Interfacing V for the huge 10%/level boost to damage.
That's about nine million SP just for one ship, and having them all to V is really relevant compared to how it is with most ships. Ishtars are weak to EM damage, and IV and V skills are the difference between a 115km Ishtar that's still within the optimal range of Heavy Beams with 3 range mods and thus gets slaughtered by EM damage, and a 130-135km Ishtar that's past optimal+falloff of these guns.
Kronos relaxed the still-absurd SP requirements for the uber-Ishtar quite a lot and as such I think we're going to see a lot more abuse of it. Drone Avionics (whatever it was called before) used to be a rank III skill, and Interfacing at 20%/level was even more mandatory to get to V.
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elitatwo
Congregatio
241
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Posted - 2014.06.23 13:59:00 -
[33] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Odithia wrote:The skill penalty is indeed a big deterrent for young players, but a minor inconvenience to bitervets.
And all are indeed lackluster when compared to the mighty Ishtar. When I was trying to find something to counter them I thought about something with good damage application and projection, the Apocalypse seemed nice until I realised it does much less damage, ridiculous. Looks like the only counter to Ishtar is more ishtars. Ironically, the absolutely ridiculous SP requirement of the do-everything Ishtar is the only thing keeping it remotely balanced. There aren't any meta 4 drones that one can use as a cheap middle ground between crappy T1 and T2 drones other than expensive faction drones, so T2 are pretty mandatory. For comparison, to fly a reasonably effective fleet BS you just need Large Racial Turret V and Sharpshooting V. For an Ishtar, you need: 1. Cruiser V and Energy Grid Upgrades V to fly the ship. 2. HAC V to get drone control past 130km with two DLAs. 3. Drone Avionics V for T2 DLAs. 4. Light, Medium, Heavy, and Sentry Drone Operation V to use a full complement of T2 weapons. 5. Four different racial spec skills for your drones to train to at least IV. 6. Drone Sharpshooting V to use T2 drone range/tracking mods and to get that last few km of optimal out of your Wardens. 7. Drone Interfacing V for the huge 10%/level boost to damage. That's about nine million SP just for one ship, and having them all to V is really relevant compared to how it is with most ships. Ishtars are weak to EM damage, and IV and V skills are the difference between a 115km Ishtar that's still within the optimal range of Heavy Beams with 3 range mods and thus gets slaughtered by EM damage, and a 130-135km Ishtar that's past optimal+falloff of these guns. Kronos relaxed the still-absurd SP requirements for the uber-Ishtar quite a lot and as such I think we're going to see a lot more abuse of it. Drone Avionics (whatever it was called before) used to be a rank III skill, and Interfacing at 20%/level was even more mandatory to get to V.
But you of all people should ZEE answer to all Ishtars, more people.
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SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
84
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Posted - 2014.06.23 20:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
[quote=Xequecal]1. Sniping past 150 km is not relevant because they can probe you down and warp to whatever range they want.
/quote]
Keep thinking this. I guess you never joined your goon buddies when you tried hellcamping us in x70. Guess what, your whole fleet was irrelevant. We still undocked and roasted billions of your stuff at ranges greater than 150. And I'm not just talking with the ol' slippery Pete fit, we got rid of the eccm and switched to tank because we were doing it RIGHT and it didn't even matter if you were probing us down.
Personally I'd be quite happy to give sniper eagles a go. They can certainly work wonders, even at extreme range. |
African Angel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.06.23 23:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
not in the slightest. the top killers by ship all have one thing in common regardless of the hull, next to no solo kills. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1212
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Posted - 2014.06.24 00:42:00 -
[36] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Kronos relaxed the still-absurd SP requirements for the uber-Ishtar quite a lot and as such I think we're going to see a lot more abuse of it. Drone Avionics (whatever it was called before) used to be a rank III skill, and Interfacing at 20%/level was even more mandatory to get to V. Quick nitpick; Drone Avionics was scout drone op Pre-Kronos, which was only 1x IIRC. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
126
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Posted - 2014.06.24 01:07:00 -
[37] - Quote
Quote:1. Sniping past 150 km is not relevant because they can probe you down and warp to whatever range they want.
Can't Warp To in and around Lowsec plexes.
Eagle is ideal for gangs/small fleets or as ranged anti-support in larger fleets. Just because there's no FotM doctrine for "NURRRRRRRRRRRRR...PRESS F1!" Nullbear blobs doesn't make it any less useful.
Quote:2. The Ishtar does 600 DPS at 130km, which is probably close to triple the Eagle's DPS at that range with much better tracking. Its also significantly better than the DPS of any battleship at that range, with probably ten times the tracking compared to T2 large long range ammo. It's completely out of range of any medium sized weapon system that's not shooting directly into its T2 resists. Large artillery cant track it and large lasers take so much PG you need AWU V to fit an Apoc with only 7 guns.
LOL...no.
Eagle does 480dps with 85km optimal or 300dps+ with 180km optimal
What you seem to be forgetting is that Sentries have a sig of 400 that loses significant real damage against anything smaller than a shield BC, while Medium Failguns have a sig of 120 can shred light tackle, especially if they're dumb enough to turn on their MWD.
Eagle also has a sig of 170 and high Kin/Therm resists, which makes it perfect in an anti-sniper role against tier 3 BCs or quasi-tanked Garde abusers. |
elitatwo
Congregatio
245
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Posted - 2014.06.24 01:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote: -snip- Eagle isn't great as a solo ship.
Says who? signature |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
226
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Posted - 2014.06.24 02:22:00 -
[39] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:Quote:1. Sniping past 150 km is not relevant because they can probe you down and warp to whatever range they want. Can't Warp To in and around Lowsec plexes. Eagle is ideal for gangs/small fleets or as ranged anti-support in larger fleets. Just because there's no FotM doctrine for "NURRRRRRRRRRRRR...PRESS F1!" Nullbear blobs doesn't make it any less useful. Quote:2. The Ishtar does 600 DPS at 130km, which is probably close to triple the Eagle's DPS at that range with much better tracking. Its also significantly better than the DPS of any battleship at that range, with probably ten times the tracking compared to T2 large long range ammo. It's completely out of range of any medium sized weapon system that's not shooting directly into its T2 resists. Large artillery cant track it and large lasers take so much PG you need AWU V to fit an Apoc with only 7 guns. LOL...no. Eagle does 480dps with 85km optimal or 300dps+ with 180km optimal What you seem to be forgetting is that Sentries have a sig of 400 that loses significant real damage against anything smaller than a shield BC, while Medium Failguns have a sig of 120 can shred light tackle, especially if they're dumb enough to turn on their MWD. Eagle also has a sig of 170 and high Kin/Therm resists, which makes it perfect in an anti-sniper role against tier 3 BCs or quasi-tanked Garde abusers.
A third of the sig, sure, but Wardens have 3x the tracking of medium hybrids with spike and Gardes have 3x the tracking of medium hybrids with regular ammo, so that's actually a wash. Sentries can hit everything railguns can.
I'm not sure why you're bringing up sig and resists, the Ishtar has the same sig and resists. Eagle is also locked to kin/therm, the Ishtar actually isn't.
The Eagle also has to use cap to fire its guns, unlike the Ishtar.
The Eagle is not "ideal" for anything, the Ishtar is better than it at literally everything. Oh the Ishtar only does double its DPS, not triple? That completely destroys my position, right.
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Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
126
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Posted - 2014.06.24 06:03:00 -
[40] - Quote
Quote:A third of the sig, sure, but Wardens have 3x the tracking of medium hybrids with spike and Gardes have 3x the tracking of medium hybrids with regular ammo, so that's actually a wash. Sentries can hit everything railguns can.
No, Sentries have 400 sig, which makes their DPS drop off to **** against small targets, will Eagle can hit perfectly well out to 180km, where tracking is a total non-issue.
Quote:
I'm not sure why you're bringing up sig and resists, the Ishtar has the same sig and resists. Eagle is also locked to kin/therm, the Ishtar actually isn't.
Ishtar gets 5% bonus to tank per level like the Eagle? Really?
Quote:The Eagle also has to use cap to fire its guns, unlike the Ishtar.
Makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.
Quote:The Eagle is not "ideal" for anything, the Ishtar is better than it at literally everything. Oh the Ishtar only does double its DPS, not triple? That completely destroys my position, right.
Much better sniper.
Much better counter-sniper
Much better support-blapper .
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Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
226
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Posted - 2014.06.24 06:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
The sig of the guns and the tracking goes into the same formula, 3x the tracking and 3x the sig means it hits targets equally as well. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
126
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Posted - 2014.06.24 07:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:The sig of the guns and the tracking goes into the same formula, 3x the tracking and 3x the sig means it hits targets equally as well.
LOL...what???
Tracking is almost always a non-issue because enemy ships can't generate enough relative transversal to overcome the huge distance. Meanwhile, sig ALWAYS determines damage if the target is smaller than weapon system's sig resolution.
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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1240
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Posted - 2014.06.24 07:57:00 -
[43] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:Meanwhile, sig ALWAYS determines damage if the target is smaller than weapon system's sig resolution.
These aren't missiles. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
126
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Posted - 2014.06.24 08:35:00 -
[44] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Squatdog wrote:Meanwhile, sig ALWAYS determines damage if the target is smaller than weapon system's sig resolution.
These aren't missiles.
So a Tornado with 1400mm arties has the same chance to hit a stationary 40-sig frigate as a Thrasher with 280mm arties?
Fascinating. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
269
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Posted - 2014.06.24 08:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Squatdog wrote:Meanwhile, sig ALWAYS determines damage if the target is smaller than weapon system's sig resolution.
These aren't missiles. So a Tornado with 1400mm arties has the same chance to hit a stationary 40-sig frigate as a Thrasher with 280mm arties? Fascinating.
Indeed.
For a stationary target the tracking part of the damage formula becomes 1.
Please read up on your gunnery maths. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
126
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Posted - 2014.06.24 09:05:00 -
[46] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Squatdog wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Squatdog wrote:Meanwhile, sig ALWAYS determines damage if the target is smaller than weapon system's sig resolution.
These aren't missiles. So a Tornado with 1400mm arties has the same chance to hit a stationary 40-sig frigate as a Thrasher with 280mm arties? Fascinating. Indeed. For a stationary target the tracking part of the damage formula becomes 1. Please read up on your gunnery maths.
The part where Sig Radius vs. Signature Resolution determines the chance to hit, all other things being equal?
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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1241
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Posted - 2014.06.24 09:45:00 -
[47] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Squatdog wrote:Meanwhile, sig ALWAYS determines damage if the target is smaller than weapon system's sig resolution.
These aren't missiles. So a Tornado with 1400mm arties has the same chance to hit a stationary 40-sig frigate as a Thrasher with 280mm arties? Fascinating.
Correct - assuming that the Tornado and Thrasher are also stationary. Both ships will hit for "full" damage, subject to hit quality.
Sig Radius vs. Signature Resolution doesn't determine the chance to hit, it acts as a modifier to tracking.
This is why blap Moros/Naglfar only needs webs, while blap Phoenix must have massive painter support as well. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
126
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Posted - 2014.06.24 10:08:00 -
[48] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Squatdog wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Squatdog wrote:Meanwhile, sig ALWAYS determines damage if the target is smaller than weapon system's sig resolution.
These aren't missiles. So a Tornado with 1400mm arties has the same chance to hit a stationary 40-sig frigate as a Thrasher with 280mm arties? Fascinating. Correct - assuming that the Tornado and Thrasher are also stationary. Both ships will hit for "full" damage, subject to hit quality. Sig Radius vs. Signature Resolution doesn't determine the chance to hit, it acts as a modifier to tracking.
Jesus Christ.
In the event that the target frig is stationary and within the Thrasher/Nado's optimal range, the Transversal vs. Tracking modifier is made irrelevant and the only real difference is Sig Radius vs. Sig Resolution.
Let me put it this way; would the Tornado have an easier time hitting a frig burning towards it with an AB or with a MWD cranked on, giving it a huge Sig bloom?
.
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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1241
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Posted - 2014.06.24 10:33:00 -
[49] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:Jesus Christ.
In the event that the target frig is stationary and within the Thrasher/Nado's optimal range, the Transversal vs. Tracking modifier is made irrelevant and the only real difference is Sig Radius vs. Sig Resolution.
Let me put it this way; would the Tornado have an easier time hitting a frig burning towards it with an AB or with a MWD cranked on, giving it a huge Sig bloom?
As you describe it, the frigate is burning straight at the Tornado and hence transversal is zero. Therefore it doesn't matter what its sig is, whether it's using a MWD or an AB or even just sitting still - with zero transversal, tracking is "perfect", the sig res/sig radius modifier has no effect and, assuming within optimal, all shots hit for "full" damage (on average 103% damage because of hit quality variations).
Quote:ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)
The important bits there is the first bit, as the second bit just deals with optimal and falloff:
Quote:(Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius)
Target and weapon sig are dealt with in the second part of that equation: [sig res]/[sig radius]. As you can see, it acts as a factor multiplying the normal "tracking" bit of the first part of the equation.
There's really no need for signature resolution to exist as a stat, it's an unnecessary, confusing complication. CCP should just normalise all the turret tracking speeds to a sig res of 100 m, or 1 m, or whatever. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15058
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Posted - 2014.06.24 10:53:00 -
[50] - Quote
Squatdog wrote: Jesus Christ.
In the event that the target frig is stationary and within the Thrasher/Nado's optimal range, the Transversal vs. Tracking modifier is made irrelevant and the only real difference is Sig Radius vs. Sig Resolution.
Let me put it this way; would the Tornado have an easier time hitting a frig burning towards it with an AB or with a MWD cranked on, giving it a huge Sig bloom?
.
if anything within those parentheses is 0, the exponent becomes 0... and something to the zero power is always 1.
because angular v is the same for both ships, both have to be still, perfectly approaching, or traveling in the same vector at the same speed.
but yeah, 0 for angular v = perfect damage, and nothing else matters between sig res, sig rad, and tracking. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
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Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
241
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Posted - 2014.06.24 11:21:00 -
[51] - Quote
Nakovi Kitsune wrote: I don't think I've ever seen anyone even fly one. Is there some use I'm just not seeing?
I was chased around delve few days ago by a ~50 man Eagle fleet + their logi support. Eagle is used in some doctrines - it is just that you need approx 60 of them and good number of logi to undock.
I believe Insidious Empire was able to make eagles work about half a year ago and thanks to their success with the doctrine it is now used in number of goon coalition alliances as one of the HAC doctrines.
They are sort of niche thing. But the range bonuses + shield resists fit exactly into the sniper larger fleet profile. Throw couple of shield extenders on it, plug the resist hole and add decent amount of logi and it becomes tough nut to crack. Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15058
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Posted - 2014.06.24 11:27:00 -
[52] - Quote
I keep thinking "just use rail megas at 225km and bedonewithit" President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Catalytic morphisis
Rock Huggers Inc The Pears of Anguish
55
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Posted - 2014.06.24 11:32:00 -
[53] - Quote
Nakovi Kitsune wrote:I really, really, really want to like this ship. I like hybrids, and the new look is great. But the bonuses just don't make sense to me. A sniper boat with a resist bonus? IMO, if you're going to sit at range, there's much better options. HACs and especially resist bonus boats really seem purposed for getting up close and personal.
So what purpose does the Eagle serve? Its DPS is too low to brawl. Deimos blows it out of the water there. As a sniper, the Ishtar or Cerberus can out damage it at range. I don't think I've ever seen anyone even fly one. Is there some use I'm just not seeing?
If there isn't, how do you fix it? Add some drone bandwidth? Drop some of the range bonus for something else (because really, what does anybody need 41km optimal with antimatter for?)
ASB Blaster fit is pretty decent, took on gangs in it with that fit, When I'm back at a PC I can actually get on eve on I can send you a fit if you like |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15058
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Posted - 2014.06.24 14:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
but for that you could use a Moa and not worry about loss President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1212
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Posted - 2014.06.24 22:05:00 -
[55] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:There's really no need for signature resolution to exist as a stat, it's an unnecessary, confusing complication. CCP should just normalise all the turret tracking speeds to a sig res of 100 m, or 1 m, or whatever. That's somewhat questionable. Having sig factor into the equation gives the ability for ships to be individually tweaked to make them easier or harder to hit when moving independently of changing their max speed/agility. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1241
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Posted - 2014.06.24 22:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
I'm not talking about changing the equation, I'm just saying normalise different-sized turrets' tracking to a specific value.
For example, normalising all turrets to a sig res of 125 m would involve no change to medium turrets, increasing the quoted tracking speed of small turrets by a factor of 3.125 and decreasing the tracking speed of large turrets by a factor of 0.3125.
The sig res value in the tracking formula would then just be a constant of 125. There's be no change to actual tracking abilities, it'd just be getting rid of a confusing and superfluous attribute. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15058
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 01:06:00 -
[57] - Quote
made me get off my proverbial ass and start this (finally) https://twitter.com/Rainfleet/status/481597097293017090/photo/1 President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15058
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 20:01:00 -
[58] - Quote
bump
https://twitter.com/Rainfleet/status/481886792736464897/photo/1
yeah, i'm keeping this quiet to give it the chance to go EVE-viral. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15257
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Posted - 2014.06.29 20:25:00 -
[59] - Quote
https://zkillboard.com/related/30003726/201406291800/ medium rails theme night, apparently President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Valleria Darkmoon
Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel
268
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Posted - 2014.06.30 08:22:00 -
[60] - Quote
Voyager Arran wrote:CCP Please ******* nerf Ishtars. There is so much fun, interesting stuff that people can't even bother trying because it will just get rolled over by a fleet of 700 DPS perma-MWD bullshit boats. You may well get your wish. In F&I someone asked CCP Rise what is next on the rebalance passes and this was his answer: "I think very next thing for me is going back to Battleships and HACs for polish passes now that they've been out in the wild awhile and there's some room for improvements."
I can't be the only one to whom this pretty much reads as: "We will be nerfing the Ishtar and Dominix, other things might also happen." As much as I have used the Ishtar of late I can't say I've been overly enthusiastic about it nor could I say I'd be sorry to see it go. This has nothing to do with its quality as a ship, it's that I hate when one thing is so obviously better than other options as to squeeze out other choices and the skyline is dominated by the same thing all the time. This is particularly true with "minion" style game play which I have never been a fan of in any game I've ever played. Here's hoping the Typhoon gains its damage application bonus to heavy missiles as well so rapid heavies won't lose out on a bonus.
If you're interested Rise goes on to say Blops and Recons are on the short list after that.
As for the Eagle, there is real potential there as a fleet doctrine, it just will never see the light of day so long as the Ishtar remains such a superior option. Additionally it can active tank small gang fights with blasters quite well and really does not suffer much from poor projection usually associated with blasters particularly with null loaded. If you want to go overboard with crystals, blue pill and links it can really be quite fantastic.
In short think of the whole situation like this. All the HACs are like the justice league from DC comics. The Eagle is Batman. Competent and effective but completely in Superman's shadow as Superman obsoletes the entire team. The Ishtar is Superman. Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification. |
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