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Regat Kozovv
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Posted - 2006.06.20 21:51:00 -
[1]
3.To make these kinds of arrangements, I propose an panel of leaders from Caldari privately owned corporations for the purposes of coordinating and negotiate deals with the Executive Counsel.
4.To extend this one step further, such a panel may be in a better position to discuss policy initiatives with the Executive Counsel and in turn better implement decided policies of the state. Given that the capsule-pilot community generally follows a different set of ethics than some of the major Caldari corporations, some changes may need to be made in order for a consistent policy to be established. This may require rethinking certain diplomatic and economic deals in the best interests of the state.
I now open this forum to discussion. Please keep submissions courteous and helpful. I look forward to hearing from the brightest minds the Caldari State has to offer.
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Regat Kozovv
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Posted - 2006.06.20 21:51:00 -
[2]
The past few years have been ones of rapid change. The challenges facing our State are many. In the interests of promoting a sustainable and advantageous public policy I am seeking comments and papers regarding Caldari issues and problems we are facing and will face in the near future. I would ask that this panel be comprised of Caldari citizens only for the time being. In addition, undue criticism or remarks about other individuals or races should be discouraged; I am looking to promote an intelligent discussion about what the policies and goals should be of the Caldari State as we look to the years ahead. It is my hope that these discussions will be watched by the Executive Counsel to aid in their decision planning.
It should be assumed that any policies proposed henceforth should contribute to the continued independence and prosperity of the Caldari State.
There are a number of issues in particular that I feel need to be resolved. The most important one of those being the future of Caldari-Gallente relations. To recap, the Caldari State and Gallente Federation currently maintain full and formal diplomatic relations, and many of our corporations in both the State and among the capsule-pilot community conduct trade and business with the Gallente state that is advantageous to both. However, relations between the two nations remain low, and I offer two supporting reasons:
1.Gallente and Caldari Nationalism: A recent conference among Caldari nationals suggests the retaking of Caldari Prime and outright war. Other signs point to increased feelings of animosity towards the Gallente Federation. Meanwhile, comments by Mentas Blaque have been seen as purposefully being inflammatory, and his dislike and distrust of the Caldari State is well known.
2.Caldari relations with the Amarr Empire are seen as collaborative, especially in the face of technology and arms deals. While stresses have been developing between the Gallente and Minmatar Republic over the issue of immigrants, these two nations still enjoy excellent relations and the Gallente government is keen to keep its naturalized population of Minmatar placated. The Gallente are already quite cold to the Amarr even with the recently peaceful overtures of the Amarr, and sees the Caldari State as collaborating with them.
The main question facing the State is whether or not it is in our best interests to pursue a confrontation with the Gallente; whether it is by their desire or ours, or whether we should pursue a diplomatic initiative to improve relations with the Gallente state.
The explosive growth of the pod-pilot community has created markets and competition that the Caldari State has been slow to deal with or take advantage of. Many of these organizations are comprised of Caldari citizens. As the power of these corporations grow in size and scope, the State will need to deal with some of these entities on a formal level as they would any other major corporation.
1.The Caldari state could benefit greatly by dealing directly with some of the larger independent Caldari corporations, extending the State’s influence into 0.0 space, benefiting from its resources and research. To do this they would need to strike favorable deals with these groups. Many already serve the State directly, and many more indirectly. They are much more flexible in the face of market pressures and demands and are able to conduct business more easily with the other Empires than the mega-corporations of the Caldari State.
2.These corporations would in turn benefit from striking deals with the State, such as full refining access to State owned space stations and better manufacturing facilities. These corporations would benefit from the security provided by the Caldari Navy proper as well as the extensive infrastructure housed within the State. This would reduce the risks of developing in 0.0 space if assistance in the State proper was assured.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.20 22:33:00 -
[3]
The State and her people, my friends, comrades, countrymen and women will remember me for my contributions.
/me spits on Gallente insignia.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2006.06.20 23:43:00 -
[4]
Gee, how did I see that coming?
Learn what it means to be Caldari - www.omertasyndicate.com |
Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.06.21 00:46:00 -
[5]
The discussion of retaking Caldari Prime is nothing new. You may be new to the discussion, but even as a child growing up, people have discussed it.
Blaque can dislike and distrust us all he wants. When a person wants something effective, high-tech, and high-quality, they look to the State.
When they want drugs, *****s, and corruption, they turn to the Federation.
The State would not need to make 'deals' with any pod-pilot organization if they wished to expand into systems no other empire owns. No empire would. The factions which would be the largest and most dangerous force for them would be the groups which have true holds on the out systems. The Guristas, Angel Cartel, reminants of Sansha's Nation.
Those loyal to the State shall answer her call when the time comes, and nothing will save those who have earned her wrath.
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Paladine Tor
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Posted - 2006.06.21 00:56:00 -
[6]
Reading the intergalactic news, I found the increase in Gallente nationalism to be alarming, but not surprising. The Federation is rotting from the inside, and now they have begun pointing their fingers outward to find someone to blame. Of course, that happens to be their old enemies, the Caldari.
I canÆt say that weÆre without fault here. Our spies have been working inside the Federation to cause problems for decades. However, the Gallente have a tendency to blame all their problems on the Caldari, and that, of course, is ridiculous.
The whole Gallente election process is a good illustration of the dangers of democracy. Their so-called ôelectionsö promote this sort of vile nationalistic rhetoric which leads to war. LetÆs be thankful that the Chief Executive Panel discourages the archaic practice of voting.
As for your idea û good luck on getting the independent-minded pod pilot corporations to agree on anything, let alone form a committee!
--
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Sigurd Ross
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Posted - 2006.06.21 00:56:00 -
[7]
I was torn between my love of everything that is Caldari, and my love for everything that is freedom-loving and decadent, for quite some time.
Then I commanded my first Megathron. I love the Federation! 
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Arron S
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Posted - 2006.06.21 04:49:00 -
[8]
Seem the Minmatar have been getting blamed for things too sadly with in the Galente Federation aswell.. I think alot of Galente Citizens fail to read their history books and the History Books of others poir to space flight. And with the way the galente election is going. I hope the peace we have enjoyed the past 100 years stays. But I fear darkness is coming:(
Pffft... The Galente Populas are a pile of Idoits that give into fear and brainwashing, same with the Caldari(the lovely corperate cold war), Ammar(Well the ammar are brain washed by their religion, primitves) and Minmatar(Tribal fighting with in the republic, gah just as bad as the rest). Only ones who dont seem to give in are the Jove.
I don't care, I dont live in empire anymore, Glad I left that place. Any kind of wars will be my cheap entertainment^_^ Watching all you pawns kill one and another.
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Kerin Melak
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Posted - 2006.06.21 14:36:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Paladine Tor
Reading the intergalactic news, I found the increase in Gallente nationalism to be alarming, but not surprising. The Federation is rotting from the inside, and now they have begun pointing their fingers outward to find someone to blame. Of course, that happens to be their old enemies, the Caldari.
I canÆt say that weÆre without fault here. Our spies have been working inside the Federation to cause problems for decades. However, the Gallente have a tendency to blame all their problems on the Caldari, and that, of course, is ridiculous.
The whole Gallente election process is a good illustration of the dangers of democracy. Their so-called ôelectionsö promote this sort of vile nationalistic rhetoric which leads to war. LetÆs be thankful that the Chief Executive Panel discourages the archaic practice of voting.
As for your idea û good luck on getting the independent-minded pod pilot corporations to agree on anything, let alone form a committee!
Have you ever thought that perhaps instead of rotting away from the inside the Gallente Federation has just got sick and tired of listening to everyone else blame us for the evils and woes of the universe?
When you have rabidly nationalistic Caldari and righteously indignant Amarr blaming all the problems within their home empires on the fact adult material and drugs can be purchased (though not necessarily condoned) in Federation space and then claiming we must be destroyed or "converted" to save your morally upstanding selves from our corrupting decadence how can you possibly be surprised or even just "alarmed" that the Gallente Federation finally starts to stand up for itself?
As for the Federation blaming all our problems on the Caldari, I very infrequently see the Federation blaming problems on outside sources. In fact I see many more squarely blaming our own government. Just because Mentas Blaque has extremist views does not mean anything yet, at least he's willing to stand up for what he considers is the right thing, even if he is racist and isn't the most tactful with his words.
I think you give your State and it's spies far too much credit and it's not like the Caldari have any right to look down upon "nationalist rhetoric which leads to war", your empire's xenophobic and militaristic inclinations are well known.
Anyway, I apologise to you Regat for interupting your discussion, especially given that you are trying to bring some new perspective and intelligently thought out ideas to the capsuleers who originate within your home empire, but I've seen such views as the above one too many times not to say anything about it.
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Regat Kozovv
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Posted - 2006.06.21 19:22:00 -
[10]
Reading over the submissions so far, it seems to me that there are many misconceptions regarding ourselves and others.
First, while the Gallente seem to be a corrupt bureaucracy, ôrottingö from the inside, I would find it foolhardy to suggest that they are anywhere near on the verge of collapse. Their system, for all of itÆs flaws, has still endured for hundreds of years, and her military and economic might is enough to give the Amarr pause. Many Caldari may remember as well that Gallente forces were more than a match for the Caldari Navy, and while I do not question the superiority of our forces, the Federation Navy remains a formidable foe.
I would also like to mention, at the risk of offending some of you, that the Caldari state has much more in common with the Gallente than any of the other empires. Our geographic heritage notwithstanding, (we are from the same system) both the Gallente and the Caldari nations have embraced capitalism, (though we have improved on this much.) and we both uphold freedom and liberty in our respective states.
How we go about implementing this is another matter. The Gallente method involves scaling a traditional democracy to unreasonable scales. Concentrating power in the hands of so few across hundreds of systems results in representatives who are so far removed from their constituency results in leaders who do not have to look after the wellbeing of their citizenry expect when elections are at stake. Often this results in little more than grandstanding. While I would not go as far as to suggest that the needs of the Gallente state as a whole are neglected, I hardly believe that itÆs leaders wake up every morning thinking of ways to make itÆs citizens happier. I think we can all toss around ideas as to what might be thought of instead.
In a capitalist system, the harder a person works, the greater he will be rewarded. The more you put in, the more youÆll get out of it. This is opposite of socialist systems, where everyone is entitled to a share, regardless of whether they did a good job or not.
While the Gallente have recognized the advantages of free markets, their democracy remains socialist. Why should someone who gives nothing to the state be able to cancel out the vote of someone who dedicates themselves to its advancement?
We Caldari have taken the proven Capitalist system and extended it into government. We do not lack a system of representation as some would like you to believe. As shareholders, we are expected to appoint board members and vote for CEO. Those ôvote by proxyö messages one receives and then deletes in their Eve-mail is part of this process. However, we are not entitled to votes simply because we had the fortune of being born on a certain planet. We earn our votes by working for a corporation or business we believe in, and then reinvesting that capital weÆve earned into shares, which earns us votes. The more we invest, the greater the stake we take, and the more say we have in how itÆs run. Every voting Caldari citizen does not have to dig through old photo albums and history text books to find someone who fought for their right to vote. They earned their votes with their own hands.
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Regat Kozovv
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Posted - 2006.06.21 19:23:00 -
[11]
Some exceptional citizens may one day be voted onto the board of a corporation, or may even be asked to run its daily operations. This is a wonderful opportunity, but is not without its checks. Whereas a Gallente senator or president may be able to woo their citizenry for a few weeks and then relax for how many years they are in office, our leaders serve at the whim of the shareholders, and are subject to recall at any given time. One might argue that Gallente civil servants are subject to the same. But would a group of senators begin to evict one of their own for failing to represent their constituency when they themselves fail to do the same? Checks and balances are given to those who hold stake in the other body; they are not given to those who need to be checked. Our board members have every reason to represent their shareholders: Not only have they contributed their own work and wealth to the causes they believe in, they are held directly accountable by those who put them there to begin with, and be replaced at any given time.
I realize the previous statements may have veered off topic, but I thought it was important to clarify some aspects in which our two nations work. Despite our differences however, the Caldari State and Gallente Federation share more in common with one another than any other two nations in EVE. Both of our states are committed towards freedom and prosperity for itÆs citizens, though we go about it in different, but not too different ways. Therefore, I honestly believe that it is in the best interests of the Caldari state to ally itself with the Gallente Federation for the long term.
I will expound on this later pending your comments.
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Mtthias Clemi
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Posted - 2006.06.21 22:02:00 -
[12]
Such barbaric language for such advanced and intelligent people... war should be avoided at all costs, in any situation.
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Shintoko Akahoshi
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Posted - 2006.06.22 04:08:00 -
[13]
I've got to agree with Mister Kozovv here. As a Gallente living and working in Caldari space, I see more simalarities than differences between our cultures. Economically, the primary difference between Gallente and Caldari businesses seem mostly to be scale (Caldari tending more toward "holding" megacorporations), with the prime objective of both being staunchly capitalistic. This is in stark contrast with both Amarr and Minmatar corporations - especially the former, where corporations tend to be the economic arm of established holder families.
While there are divisive and combative nationalists among both empires, I'm encouraged by the number of both Caldari and Gallente who are unwilling to continually reopen wounds inflicted in what is realistically a long dead war. That war ended because both civilizations, weakened by war, were threatened by the militarily strong and newly discovered Amarr. While I'm not suggesting that the Amarr empire has plans to destroy both nations, it is obvious that neither would benefit from a renewal of war. Both the Federation and the State face very real enemies in the form of Guristas and Serpentis pirates who make ever bolder strikes (not to mention smaller incursions from other groups). It's in both of our interests to cooperate against the enemies we have today, instead of trying to manufacture conflict out of mist.
The Red Mom of WarÖ
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Shintoko Akahoshi
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Posted - 2006.06.22 04:09:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Shintoko Akahoshi on 22/06/2006 04:09:40
(Deleted duplicate post)
The Red Mom of WarÖ
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Jon Engel
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Posted - 2006.06.22 07:51:00 -
[15]
That's the mystery of war isnt it? Noone knows who will win it till it's over.
Both the Gallente and Caldari Militarys are specifically designed to counter eachother.
People think the Caldari Military is the all mighty force that can stop anything. Howevor advanced the technology is it does not factor in that war is not about technology. Nor is it about Nationalism or State Loyaltys. War is about death and destruction for petty causes that could be avoided through simple dialogue and discussion. Excluding the Amarr I see no reason why the rest of the Nations could not sit down and hash things out for the betterment of all mankind.
Sadly, people feel the need to do horrible things to eachother.
Whether it be the Gallente Suppression of the initial Caldari Nationalist movement and the insuing war to the Exile of the Intaki to the syndicate for rising up when they feared the Gallente would destroy Intaki itself.
Mostly my loyalties will never be with the Federation again. Save for an Amarr invasion of Placid.
The way I see it, Blaque would sooner all Intaki, Mannar, Jin Mei,Caldari and Minmitar living in Federal Space be kept as second class citizens and told what to do rather than have a say in what is done.
Bear in mind the Gallente have done many good deeds in there time too. They aided the Minmitar when noone would listen. They brought both the Intaki and the Caldari to the stars.
They did howevor do many evils that must be reconciled in the end.
Exiling Intaki, obliterating Caldari prime, fighting a people who only wanted to leave.
The recent polls indicate that the vast majority of Gallente care not for Intaki, Mannar, or Jin Mei and Minmitars. They care for what is the most fashionable cause to hop on to.
Blaque offers them National and Racial Pride at the expense of Liberty, Peace, and Racial harmony.
The Caldari State must be aware that if war is to happen. And I must say it will because all Nations war with eachother at one time or the other.That they make sure to know where they stand and let the people know as well.
As a Current Citizen of the State. I may well be fighting the Gallente in the future. Possibly for a greater purpous than Blaque's rhetoric of the Vile Caldari, Territorial Expansion and displaced Nationalism.
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Petrus Illyusanov
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Posted - 2006.06.22 09:08:00 -
[16]
One thing which should be kept in mind is that War is a means to an end not an end in itself.
So the real question is not "Can the CN defeat the GFN", nor is it "Can the State conquor the Federation", nor is it a question of if a policy of orbital bombardment can be avoided during any such campaign, etc. No the real question is "What happens after we win?"
Since if we loose or it again stalemates the question will not come up those outcomes are irrelevent to the discussion.
I suspect that the real reason there has been no war with the Federation for so long is because it is by far a substantially more difficult question to answer than is the development of a military strategy to defeat the Federation.
Until the CEP develops such a diplomatic strategy, one which ensures the future prosperity of the Caldari people, and one which, even if implemented at missile point, will be something the Federation Citizens can accept I doubt there will be a war.
Of course, should the CEP have such a strategy, or should the CEP develop such a strategy...then, and this is addressed to the Feddys, we will be back for what we lost.
P. Illyusanov
And no this is not offically santioned its what I feel about the topic.
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Regat Kozovv
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Posted - 2006.06.22 18:20:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Petrus Illyusanov
So the real question is not "Can the CN defeat the GFN", nor is it "Can the State conquor the Federation", nor is it a question of if a policy of orbital bombardment can be avoided during any such campaign, etc. No the real question is "What happens after we win?"
I consider this an important point of why we should fear a war with the Gallente Federation.
I do not believe that a war between our two nations would lead to outright conquest of one over the other. However, the expenditure in men and materials would leave both empires in a weakened state
The Amarr have stated publicly many times their contempt for the Gallente Federation, and have risked war with it more than once. Their military strength is the only factor that stayed their hand. While the Caldari may have the ships, we do not have the manpower and resources to outright conquer Gallente worlds. The Amarr both have the will and the means to do so.
Whether or not the Amarr would turn this might against the Caldari is unknown. Our current relations would indicate otherwise. But that is within the context of the current political situation. Should the Amarr be able to remove the Gallente as a threat, the rest of the Minmatar Republic could quickly follow. It should be noted that our relationship with the Amarr could then quickly change. We share no ideological or cultural ties. Our relations and trade is one of convenience. When it ceases to be convenient, we would be viewed with very different eyes. Even then, if the Amarr saw some reason not to attempt to subjugate the Caldari, our preeminence in Eve would be severely threatened in the face of a much larger Amarr Empire.
If war did break out, how might it proceed? The results would be disastrous for both nations. Immediately, most Caldari trade would be cut off. Not just with the Gallente, but the Amarr, since Gallente territory sits between Caldari and Amarr space. The Gallente do not trade to the same level with the Amarr as we do, but they will certainly feel the economic effects of losing their business with us. Our two nations simply conduct more business between each other than weÆre willing to admit.
What the Amarr do will be of note, but would be harmful either way. Should they intervene on our behalf, the Gallente would then face the prospect of a two front war. Their defeat would then be inevitable. Our scenario then drifts to the one I outlined earlier.
The Amarr may not intervene directly on our behalf, but I would not expect them not to take advantage of the Gallente situation once our conflict is finished. Given their previous statements and ideology, I do not see evidence that they would refrain from military action against the Gallente should the opportunity present itself.
Should the Amarr become involved in the conflict, it is quite possible that the Minmatar would become involved as well. How effective they will be in determining the outcome is debatable. Nevertheless, I believe we are witnessing a course of action that may very well take all four empires to war. The results, I need not elaborate on, would be disastrous, and jeopardize the long term health of the Caldari state.
I should note at this point that I am not advocating a policy of hostility towards the Amarr. Our relations with them ensure that we are not isolated in Eve. However, with the long-term future of the Caldari nation at stake, we must not be blind to old grudges and scores. Whether it be through war or peace, we must choose the course of action that will ensure the survival of our state, not its destruction. I fear the current divisions between the nations will bring us towards the latter.
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
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Posted - 2006.06.23 00:46:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Mithrantir Ob''lontra on 23/06/2006 00:48:27
Edited by: Mithrantir Ob''lontra on 23/06/2006 00:46:45
I want first of all to apologize for stating my point of view in a discussion that was to be populated by the Caldari people only. But having followed the discussion with great interest, i would like to express my thoughts on this.
First of all i would like to remind to everyone that nobody is perfect and despite the fact that we all do want to be perfect, mistakes and unjustice do happen.
The events that happened right before the outbreak the war between our nations as well as the events that took place during that war, i consider them as mistakes and poor judgement by both our nations leaders at that time. But to dwell in the past events and try to wash out the blood with more blood is no solution, as far as i can understand it.
No matter what some extreme nationalists feel and would like to see happen, the truth is that between our nations people, the relations slowly but steadily (in my humble opinion) are getting better.
Blake might say a lot of things but i am sure that if (or when) he comes to the presidential seat, he will discover that some of his point of views are not viable, if he really wants the prosperity of the Gallente Federation and its people. For now he is no more than a candidate and he should be considered as such (meaning that some of his statements should not be taken so seriously).
Having said that, i would also like to state that i (at least) consider the Caldari nation (and foremost the people) not as a potent opponent of my Federation, but rather as a respectable nation that has the potential to become a worthy ally or at least a trusted friend. Truth is that we share a lot more than what it divides us. And that should be taken into consideration especially when we are talking about the lives of people who have no means to defend themselves in the possibility of a war (especially from the attrocities that always happen during wars).
Truth is also that the Caldari State might prove a worthy opponent, but that possibility is not welcomed in my mind, because i hate to find myself fighting against people that share point of views and understandings that are close to mine.
My parents used to say this:
To make the same mistake twice is not a wise mans trait. To do it thrice is a fools trait.
Our nations made the mistake of war once. It was painfull for both sides (no matter how painfull was for each side). Would it be wise to do it twice? I think not. In a war there are no winners that is the only thing that i am sure.
Furthermore one must take into consideration that the point of view that Amarr have for their nation, is to rule all others. That means that if Gallente and Caldari involve in a war, possibilities are that they will take advantage of this situation to conquer both nations, since they would be both devastated no matter who will "win". I for once don't ever want to think the possibility to be a slave. Freedom is valued above all else in my list. Not to say that i despise the Amarrian ways for many issues not only slavery.
Let our nations be the first to make this leap of faith towards universal peace. Let us put the old grudges behind, isolate the lunatic nationalistic voices that cry out for blood while they are planning to stay out of harms way (most do think that). We the pilots who will give our lives in the end, should know above all others that our lives would be wasted in a war, which in the end will leave nothing but ruins and an Amarr empire ready to dig its claws on the remnants of our people.
Again i am sorry for the intrusion
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
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Karl Mattar
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Posted - 2006.06.23 14:55:00 -
[19]
I do not sanction war with the Federation at this time. The Federation will crumble under it's own liberal policies, as well as the strain that unlimited Minmatar immigration will impose. The decadence and self-centered focus that is endemic to Gallente culture is certainly not going to help the situation.
As Caldari, we have only a few concerns. We have no economic problems, ours is the strongest and most stable economy in the cluster. Everyone is eager to purchase our high tech commodities.
Our first concerns lay in the areas of self-defense and security. Our military is the most advanced, yet it is also one of the smallest. We need a massive increase in military spending by the CEP, so that we can match our neighbor ship for ship. This way, our technological edge will assure that the Federation will never again expect to be able to win in battle.
Second, we need to place diplomatic pressure on the Federation to relinquish our homeworld. Caldari Prime must be returned to the Caldari. By placing it under Caldari control, and demilitarizing the entire system, Caldari Prime can become a center of trade between the Federation and the State. People that trade together rarely shoot each other. Returning Caldari Prime will remove a major stumbling block to Caldari-Gallente relations.
Finally, we need to continue to build ties to the Amarr Empire. Our relations with them are a powerful factor in the balance of power in the cluster. The Minmatar Republic is already collapsing into tribal factions, and it's people are leaving for Federation space in droves. While the Republic's failure will simply create another large area of lawless space, the influx of cheap labor to the Federation will give them massive human resources, and Gallente power can grow quickly because of it. Only by maintaining close ties to the Empire can we both be assured that egomaniacs like Blacque don't start thinking they can rule us again. As long as the Gallente hold Caldari Prime, they will think of us as the vanquished.
Those are my thoughts on the matter.
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Evelyn Lavi
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Posted - 2006.06.23 19:53:00 -
[20]
In my humble opinion, the State needs to emphasize civic duty and personal responsibility to any future capsuleer captains.
Far too many (in fact, almost all) of the pirates I seem to find lurking in low-security space are Caldari in origin. It defames us and makes New Caldari seem like a cradle for half-witted space muggers, using their special gifts to waylay Ibises, Impairors, and other civilian ships with their Ravens, congratulating themselves for a cowardly "victory" while at the same time staining the reputation of the State.
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Arron S
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Posted - 2006.06.24 21:25:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Evelyn Lavi
In my humble opinion, the State needs to emphasize civic duty and personal responsibility to any future capsuleer captains.
Far too many (in fact, almost all) of the pirates I seem to find lurking in low-security space are Caldari in origin. It defames us and makes New Caldari seem like a cradle for half-witted space muggers, using their special gifts to waylay Ibises, Impairors, and other civilian ships with their Ravens, congratulating themselves for a cowardly "victory" while at the same time staining the reputation of the State.
I have seen an equal number of Ammar, Minmatar and Galente pilots with low sec status, so its not just Caldari who are "pirates". Piracy should be the main consern of all empires, not each other. I have notice more and more new pod pilots wanting to become pirates theses days. its kind of a shame:(
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Strikeclone
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Posted - 2006.06.29 03:46:00 -
[22]
The markets and oppotunity for profit within the gallente federation are well worth exploiting for sure.
But what is more important to the Caldari people, profits or honour?
But are they worth our personal and inter-stella honour being forever tarnished?
Every day that we remain sundered from our cultural and spiritual home world diminishes us.
All true Caldari take pride that our people were the first to establish a true nation following what ever calamitys of the ancient past.
Why now should the ancestors of those honoured heros be denied their birth right?
I couldn't give a toss about the gallente or their way of life, let them prosper or let them rot within their borders I could not care less. However they have something that belongs to me, to all true Caldari and it is no mere trinket.
It is our home.
IF they wish to show sense and work to a peaceful settlement that allows us to take back what is ours then all well and good for the families who will not receive Vidgrammes from the Caldari Navy war office.
However if they continue to persist in keeping us from homeworl then a military solution maybe required.
Strikeclone
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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Elrianmk2
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Posted - 2006.06.29 14:45:00 -
[23]
Im sorry mr Strikeclone but i have 2 questions,
1, Did you intend on removing all Gallante from "your" homeworld? bearing in mind you lost any rights to that planet after your betrayel of the federation way back when?
2, Are you willing to allow only unarmed civillians to return to your old homeworld? Because by your previous actions it has proven to the Federation that we cannot afford to trust you in any way shape or form.
Furthermore, while you scream for blood to be spilt, a slight exageration to be sure but there we go. How exactly do you care to explain why your people, who are allowed to resettle on your old homeworld, a Federation planet, must go to war? I mean any time you want to come back and have a look around we wont stop you. try to annex what is and always has been federation teritory though and you will have a fight on your hands.
Incidentally, the only people who will benifit if the Federation and the state fight will be the Amarr. and whats more i notice a few of your people are aware enough of the very real threat they pose.
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If it wasnt for bad luck i would have no luck at all
The only certainties are death and taxes.
Edit: and the nerfing of my pic :/ |
Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.06.29 17:08:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Elrianmk2
Im sorry mr Strikeclone but i have 2 questions,
1, Did you intend on removing all Gallante from "your" homeworld? bearing in mind you lost any rights to that planet after your betrayel of the federation way back when?
It's funny you say we betrayed the Federation.
Our colonies which the Gallente wanted to control (which an equal-rights government wouldn't demand), existed before our membership in the Federation, and thus, superceded any claim the Federation could make in their wish to rule over us as they do the other races in the Federation.
When we didn't allow them to rule what wasn't theirs, they blockaded our homeworld, causing an attack of desperation, which was then met by an orbital bombardment and the war.
Many Gallente seem to ignore the fact that the only thing that stopped the Caldari Navy from returning the favor of that bombardment was our pilots cared more about their people (and you could even say they cared about not slaughtering Gallente civilians), and ended up keeping the Federation forces at bay while the planet was evacuated.
It was us who was betrayed by the Federation. An entity that even to this day preaches equality, by stops such thigs once it no longer affects the Gallente citizens. It's only a matter of time until the Intaki decide they want better than the scraps they're getting now. The federation often admitted that the actions its government took at that time was wrong, and that's all they've done, no actions to show they turly have evolved, and looking at the election polls, it's quite clear the Federation never changed.
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Regat Kozovv
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Posted - 2006.06.29 18:18:00 -
[25]
IÆm glad to see the discussion picking up in this thread, though I worry that this is going to degenerate into argument about who wronged who.
The facts are that both nations; Gallente and Caldari, committed atrocities during the war.(1) I think we can all agree that these events were tragic regardless of the causes and positions at the time.
I agree that the Caldari refusal to hand control of the free worlds to the Gallente to be in line with the principles of self-determination. While it is understandable the desire of the Gallente Federation was to prevent their nation to fragmenting into smaller ones, that alone should demonstrate the problems with a too centralized government spanning thousands of light-years over many ethnic and racial lines.
However, as good governance is still a human-wide experiment, I will not argue that Gallente are incorrect in trying to make it work. I do believe in the superiority of the Caldari system, but as the saying goes, ôeveryone likes their own brand.ö
I still see the same arguments being brought up for taking back Caldari Prime. I do not see the practicality or benefit from such an endeavor. The argument most often brought forth is that it would heal our pride and reclaim our honor. I find these dubious at best. We withdrew from Caldari Prime; there was no need or desire to fight to death over that world then. Furthermore, I reiterate that the very last elders who can even recall Caldari Prime died generations ago, and even they were only children when they last stepped on that world. Anyone who ôrecallsö itÆs splendor, beauty, etc., is regurgitating old holovids.
The Caldari State occupies dozens of star systems and hundreds of planets, and has occupied many of them since before the War. No one world defined us as a civilization then, and no one world certainly defines us now. We are not who we are because we came from a particular rock in space, but because we share a set of ideals that makes us Caldari. Many Gallente originated from Caldari Prime; does that make them Caldari? Does it make us Gallente? I say not. Our identity is much more than a home world. We may have been forced to leave our home sooner than we had intended, but we did not leave anything behind.
Finally, at the risk of repeating myself, the practical benefits from taking such a world are non-existent. Trade, resources, and lives will all be squandered. I assure you that no war between the Gallente and Caldari will be one sided. I would hate to imagine the price we would pay, even if victorious. And any victory may only be temporary in the face of opportunistic foes, all at the price of occupying a far off world where no Caldari live that would require huge resources to hold deep in Gallente space.
For those who ôthinkö that their pride is hurt, donÆt fool yourself. The State has much more important matters to attend to than to lick old wounds. We left that system hundreds of years ago, and have grown more powerful ever since without it. The Caldari State should not be fooled into wasting lives in order to satisfy our nostalgia.
OOC Footnote:
1. I would refer to the three chronicles regarding the Gallente-Caldari War, in particular ôThe Breakoutö, which covers the Caldari withdraw from Caldari Prime (and the folly they recognized in holding it) and ôThe Science of Never Againö regarding the Gallente bombardment of the planet. Those Caldari who think we did not attack Gallente civilians should check the chronicles of the war, in particular the attack on Nouvelle Rouvenor and the Hueromont incident.
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Britannica
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Posted - 2006.06.29 18:44:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Britannica on 29/06/2006 18:45:03
Nouvelle Rouvenor was a terrorist atrocity and should be a constant reminder of what some fanatical groups are capable of and the Hueromont incident like the bombing of Caldari Prime are events both the Gallente and Caldari should apolgise for and move on
the majority of Gallente citizens do not want war, most Caldari have little interest in forcing out or killing the vast Gallente populace now living on caldari Prime
I agree with bolstering trade with the federation. the Caldari megacorps are likely to benefit from helping the Minmatar, they are more than rich enough to buy all Minmatar slaves from the Ammar and release them. I also believe more active diplomatic relations with the Jove empire should be persued
we should be reducing trade to the Ammar empire and Khanid kingdom while their policies threaten to enslave all none Ammarians.
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Strikeclone
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Posted - 2006.06.29 23:48:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Strikeclone on 29/06/2006 23:48:04
Originally by: Elrianmk2
1, Did you intend on removing all Gallante from "your" homeworld? bearing in mind you lost any rights to that planet after your betrayel of the federation way back when?
First off, I make no mention of removing gallente from our homeworld. When it is in our possesion again no doubt law abiding peoples will be welcome to stay.
Second as has been aptly pointed out the betrayal was by the gallente.
Thirdly there is no question of "rights" its our planet, and it shall be in our posession again.
Originally by: Elrianmk2
2, Are you willing to allow only unarmed civillians to return to your old homeworld? Because by your previous actions it has proven to the Federation that we cannot afford to trust you in any way shape or form.
What previous actions? I have done nothing to the federation outside of annihilating invading gallente ships breeching State boarders as sanctioned by the Caldari Navy. Stop clutching at straws.
Under Caldari law citizens can be licenced to carry small arms for self defense, so the question of being armed or unarmed is a matter of personal choice.
Originally by: Elrianmk2
Furthermore, while you scream for blood to be spilt, a slight exageration to be sure but there we go.
Slight exageration......how about blatant lie. I don't scream for any of my nations blood to be split, true I don't particulalry care if gallente blood is split.
But its not my aim, or my goal.
If the gallente government choses to be wise and relinquish all claim on our homeworld and we are able to reclaim it peacefuly then so much the better, as many Caldari will not have to die killing many more gallente.
I think you should concentrate on the matters at hand rather than trying to derail this debate with cheap lines designed to be inflamatory.
Especially when you are having to fabricate motives behind things that are not being said. I am not sure that even makes sense but I am afraid that if I go back to try to figure it out my ears will begin to bleed!
Originally by: Elrianmk2
How exactly do you care to explain why your people, who are allowed to resettle on your old homeworld, a Federation planet, must go to war? I mean any time you want to come back and have a look around we wont stop you. try to annex what is and always has been federation teritory though and you will have a fight on your hands.
You really do love to add your little spin on things, and thats after you have added a few choice words to change the tone of what is actually being said.
First, the federation may claim the system, but Caldari Prime is ours and we shall have it back someday.
Secondly, you seem to forget the last time the federation tried to fight our military (as opposed to bombing women and children) you lost, repeatedly. Carry on and you will see history repeat itself.
Originally by: Elrianmk2
Incidentally, the only people who will benifit if the Federation and the state fight will be the Amarr. and whats more i notice a few of your people are aware enough of the very real threat they pose.
You will find that the Caldari peole aer fully aware that open war with any nation will open the State up to attack from the other nations.
However even the mighty Amarr know better than to try anything, they can babble on about religeosity and destiny but in truth they are no doubt fully aware that any aggression will be responded in kind and they will of course loose all their lucrative trade deals with the State.
I doubt that they wish to open up another front of war that they must know they will never win.
Strikeclone
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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Elrianmk2
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Posted - 2006.06.30 10:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Strikeclone
First off, I make no mention of removing gallente from our homeworld. When it is in our possesion again no doubt law abiding peoples will be welcome to stay.
The Planet is currently filled with law abiding people Mr Srikeclone, people who will resist an illegal attempt to claim a federation planet by a hostile force.
Originally by: Strikeclone
Second as has been aptly pointed out the betrayal was by the gallente.
Thirdly there is no question of "rights" its our planet, and it shall be in our possession again.
The caldari lost any rights to the Planet formally called Caldari Prime the moment the betrayed the federation. But this has been discussed many, many times. I was curious to your intentions, and having seen them, am aware that for all of your CEPÆs discussions of keeping the peace, there are elements with both your and my factions who desire war.
Originally by: Strikeclone
Under Caldari law citizens can be licensed to carry small arms for self defence, so the question of being armed or unarmed is a matter of personal choice.
I was referring to interstellar weaponry, navel build-ups and so forth. The personal defence of civilians is not an issue, the tensions of two very heavily armed armadaÆs and interstellar weaponry platforms owned by rival faction within the same star-system would rapidly become an issue. Millions could die before some realised that the whole thing was started by an errant missile warhead drifting through space, or an old rivalry between captains. Simply out your requests for control of your former planet are insane at best. However, the Federation will allow anyone to settle on this planet providing they are willing to obey the laws currently in effect. Any time you want to stop by please feel free, just leave your fleets and posturing behind. It really isnÆt necessary
Originally by: Strikeclone
I think you should concentrate on the matters at hand rather than trying to derail this debate with cheap lines designed to be inflamatory.
If you regard my questions as inflammatory, you should have heard my reaction to the shock of such blatant and arrogant warmongering.
Originally by: Strikeclone
You really do love to add your little spin on things, and thats after you have added a few choice words to change the tone of what is actually being said.
First, the federation may claim the system, but Caldari Prime is ours and we shall have it back someday.
Secondly, you seem to forget the last time the federation tried to fight our military (as opposed to bombing women and children) you lost, repeatedly. Carry on and you will see history repeat itself.
We were winning the war until the threat of the Ammar forced us to sue for peace. You were winning engagements, yes, but at that time you did not have the manpower or reasources for an extended conflict. It would have taken xsome time but for the Amarr, your little rebellion would have been crushed as it should have been.
Originally by: Strikeclone
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Over the bodies of billions and the destruction of The Caldari, Gallante and Minmatar people, you really want that? Oh as for my ôspinö its simple truth. If you donÆt like it call it what you will.
Now if i may offer my appologies to the OP for sidetracking this discussion, i shall try not to derail it any further. I am however glad to see sence from many within the Caldari camp when we in the Federation are in a very difficut position. That being a coice between no leader, and a warmongerer.
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If it wasnt for bad luck i would have no luck at all
The only certainties are death and taxes.
Edit: and the nerfing of my pic :/ |
Britannica
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:10:00 -
[29]
the only betrayal at the start of the caldari/Gallente war was the Gallente betraying their own culture and ideals towards freedom of choice. the Caldari were prepared and many were eager to live peacefully side by side in the Luminaire system until the Gallente government ordered the deaths of thousands of innocents
I do hope that one day the Caldari people will be allowed to reinhabit Caldari prime. but I want it to happen through peaceful means not through war. I am pleased to see many Gallente and Caldari pod pilots see the foolishness of igniting a long dead war
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Strikeclone
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Posted - 2006.07.01 05:44:00 -
[30]
Elrianmk2
Clearly you do not know your history, and this thread realy isnt the place to discuss it. My appoligies to the O/P.
The facts are that the gallente federation lost the war, but retain control of what was left of our homeworld due to the political and military situation of the time.
The war was the result of hypocrisy from the gallente government, and then the extremists took power and those with more sense but less back bone allowed them to instigate a full inter-stella war.
The Caldari state has its share of fanatics and nutjobs who want war for war sake. I am pleased to announce that I am not once of them, dispite the tremendous ignorance displayed by many individuals on this forum I am a Caldari who would see clearer heads prevail.
I do not see the benefits in war with the gallente, neitehr side would have the means to ever fully subjugate the other so it would be little more than a bitter war of attrition.
However this does not mean that I would not go willingly to war to protect me and mine, this include our culture and national pride. And Caldari Prime is the very symbol of that pride, it is our fallen angel that must be delivered from ignomy and shame.
Once the Caldari and the gallente lived in relative peace and even worked together to discover the jump gate technology enabling the colonization of nearby space.
The Crielere was a tremendous breakthrough for both political and scientific reasons.
Caldari and gallente no longer need be enemies, But the fact remains they lost the war and they owe us for the slaughter of millions.
If they will not give us the homeworld and persist in the sabre ratling what are the Caldari to do? Sit back in fear as the gallente did all those years ago when the facists took over the federation? Is that our way? NO!
The C.E.P. must increase preassure on the gallente government to free Caldari Prime.
We have a Navy.
It is the best in the cluster.
The gallente learned that once.
They may need a refresher lesson.
Strikeclone
Celer Et Audax
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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