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Britannica
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Posted - 2006.07.01 15:49:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Britannica on 01/07/2006 15:50:01
Edited by: Britannica on 01/07/2006 15:49:38
as we debate the past and consider what we would like from the future, both the Caldari State and Gallente federation have war mongering elements seeking to take power
Mentas Blaque has publicly demonstrated a hatred of non Gallente, the Patriot mega corps in the Caldari State could attempt to take advantage of Mr Blaque by launching a "pre-emptive strike". both elements need watching and controling if the Caldari and Gallente peoples are to survive
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Strikeclone
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Posted - 2006.07.01 16:00:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Britannica
as we debate the past and consider what we would like from the future, both the Caldari State and Gallente federation have war mongering elements seeking to take power
Mentas Blaque has publicly demonstrated a hatred of non Gallente, the Patriot mega corps in the Caldari State could attempt to take advantage of Mr Blaque by launching a "pre-emptive strike". both elements need watching and controling if the Caldari and Gallente peoples are to survive
Are you a liberal faction supporter? Because you sound like one of them with your fence sitting attitude, blaming everyone else for the current woes. Dont you want the Caldari people to have their homeworld back, have you no pride in the State?
All kinds of people live in the State, but the one thing that makes us the strongest and most stable nation is the fact that we all pull together.
If your not a loyal Caldari, then what else is there? Exile and ignomy....
Strikeclone
Celer Et Audax
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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Regat Kozovv
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Posted - 2006.07.01 17:07:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Strikeclone
Dont you want the Caldari people to have their homeworld back[?]
No. We don't need it; we have gotten along well without it. To attempt to take it back will squander countless lives and resources while giving us an indefencable rock in Gallente territority full of Gallente citizens and no Caldari. Taking back Caldari prime to satisfy our egos and nostaligica is absurd..
Originally by: Strikeclone
..have you no pride in the State?
We have pride in what we have accomplished and where we are going. Our nation is define by more than a single planet, which I may remind you was only one of many our nation held at the time.
I am dissapointed in how far off topic this has gone, but perhaps this is the issue that needs to be addressed first. I reccomend that the participants here familiarize themselves with my previous submissions, as I believe I have already given ample reason as to why demanding or conquering Caldari Prime is absurd. This should have been a long dead issue as we relenquished our claim on the world when we withdrew nearly 200 years ago. Since that time the Caldari and Gallente states have participated in research together(1), conducted trade together(2), and have even fought together(3). Sacrificing all of this over a world that we don't even live on will destroy the true things we should have pride in: The empire we have built today.
Footnotes
1. See Short Stories, Crielere Project
2. See Short Stories, Catch of the Day
3. See EVE Chronicles, Sansha's Nation
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Strikeclone
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Posted - 2006.07.01 18:16:00 -
[34]
So Regat Kozovv
You open a debate on critical issues regarding the Caldari State and its peoples, and when they offer different opinions to your own you call them absurd.
So what is this debate to be then lots of sycophants agreeing with you and stroking your ego?
Remember that there are three main factions working within the State and the CEP, you would do well to remember that all seek to serve and futher the State.
Do not ask for answers if you will only insult the people giving them.
Strikeclone
Celer Et Audax
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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Regat Kozovv
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Posted - 2006.07.02 04:16:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Strikeclone
So Regat Kozovv
You open a debate on critical issues regarding the Caldari State and its peoples, and when they offer different opinions to your own you call them absurd.
Just the opinion of invading Caldari Prime. Karl suggests a diplomatic solution in negogating for it, which I don't thing is necessary, but he argues that this will remove a obsticle in our relations.
I have yet to hear a strong argument from you, and if you intend to offer your opinion, it would be wise to back it up with some sound reasoning.
If you honestly believe that invading Caldari Prime will bring benefits to the state other than the ones I have stated, I would love to hear them.
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Strikeclone
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Posted - 2006.07.02 04:51:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Regat Kozovv
I have yet to hear a strong argument from you, and if you intend to offer your opinion, it would be wise to back it up with some sound reasoning.
Reason is a matter of opinion in itself, what I find reasonable and what you find reasonable may well be two very seperate things.
Originally by: Regat Kozovv
If you honestly believe that invading Caldari Prime will bring benefits to the state other than the ones I have stated, I would love to hear them.
Please quote me where I have stated I want to invade our homeworld?
I think you will find that I wish to see the gallente hand back our homeworld, peacefully so as not to lose thousands of lives.
I think you like many of our so called loyal Caldari pod pilots need to refresh your memories on our history with the gallente, you will find ample reason for our mutual distrust.
I wish to see Caldari Prime returned to us, as it is a symbol of what was lost and it galls many to have it in the hands of our enemy.
And make no mistake the gallente are still our enemy. Even the liberals accept that centuries of intercine warfare and the gallente atrocities dont just get forgotten over night.
But what better way to begin the healing of the rift between our nations than to return our homeworld, especially given that we would once again share a system with them. From that moment the Caldari State would have even more reason to keep the peace and reforge old links.
But in any case my point of view is absurd too you no doubt, you really should not open a debate and then condem those who respond differnetly too you.
Strikeclone
Celer Et Audax
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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Sigurd Ross
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Posted - 2006.07.02 04:59:00 -
[37]
Homelands are stupid. Give me a ship and crew, and I'm set.
After all, you can't take the sky from me... 
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Strikeclone
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Posted - 2006.07.02 05:34:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Sigurd Ross
Homelands are stupid. Give me a ship and crew, and I'm set.
After all, you can't take the sky from me...
The Caldari homeworld is not stupid, traitor.
The thousands who died holding the line so that millions could escape were not stupid.
Infact the only thing that is stupid is you, which is why your exile on your ship is probably for the best, less a true Caldari take umbrage at your disrespect for our honoured ancestors.
Strikeclone
Celer Et Audax
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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Nooey
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Posted - 2006.07.02 11:45:00 -
[39]
Nooey produces his State Citizen ID before commencing.
Strikeclone your idiocy knows no bounds. It's morons like you and Jenny that are the State's worst enemy. You would throw countless lives into a futile battle and sacrifice them on the altar of pseudo-patriotism. You disgust me.
You are the disgrace to all intelligent and truly patriotic Caldari Citizens, who have the practical sense to know and realise that the things you talk about are not only just insane, they're profoundly pathetic. Yet you have the audacity to spit out words like "traitor" at the people who have the sense to realise the reality of situations.
Stop saying talk is cheap only to ramble on unintelligibly about things you seriously have not the slightest clue, nor the tiniest amount of authority to speak about. Saying your a patriot, and being a patriot - they're two entirely different things, as Jenny Spitfire so aptly demonstrates every time her mouth opens and dribbles something out.
Caldari Prime will never belong to the Caldari again. We don't need it, and there's no reason why we would want it. It's a planet, we have plenty of them in State space. If you want to get all emotional about inanimate objects fine, but thinking an epic war to recapture aforementioned inanimate objects is somehow justified or desirable is pure sentimentalist delusion and a wholly unecessary clinging to a now long-gone past. There is no practical reason why we would want the planet back, that's why for all these years, we haven't bothered trying to get it back. Somewhere in that fact, there's a clue you've woefully failed to grasp.
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The Associate
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Posted - 2006.07.02 15:58:00 -
[40]
Edited by: The Associate on 02/07/2006 15:58:43
Originally by: Nooey
Nooey produces his State Citizen ID before commencing.
Strikeclone your idiocy knows no bounds. It's morons like you and Jenny that are the State's worst enemy. You would throw countless lives into a futile battle and sacrifice them on the altar of pseudo-patriotism. You disgust me.
hehehehe, ahh the latest addition to the Strikeclone flame troll herd bleats once again. I think you will find that I have consistantly said that I hope the matter can be resolved peacefully so as to save Caldari lives. I can quote myself if you like but I am sure a sheep of your calibre can "read". Which leads me to assume that you have not actually read anything I have said previously and that this is yet another baseless attack on me just because your a sore loser who gets duffed up by gallente pron directors. 
Originally by: Nooey
You are the disgrace to all intelligent and truly patriotic Caldari Citizens, who have the practical sense to know and realise that the things you talk about are not only just insane, they're profoundly pathetic. Yet you have the audacity to spit out words like "traitor" at the people who have the sense to realise the reality of situations.
Stop saying talk is cheap only to ramble on unintelligibly about things you seriously have not the slightest clue, nor the tiniest amount of authority to speak about. Saying your a patriot, and being a patriot - they're two entirely different things, as Jenny Spitfire so aptly demonstrates every time her mouth opens and dribbles something out.
My translator had problems with this bit, it kept telling me it needs a upgrade to complete the translation, so the translation is only partially complete. I read
"waa waa waaaaa, muh! muh! baaaaa baaaa fking baaaa" If I can actually get a meaning full sentence from this part of nooey's text I shall see if a reply is needed, for now I shall just say, "mint sauce anyone?"
Originally by: Nooey
Caldari Prime will never belong to the Caldari again. We don't need it, and there's no reason why we would want it. It's a planet, we have plenty of them in State space. If you want to get all emotional about inanimate objects fine, but thinking an epic war to recapture aforementioned inanimate objects is somehow justified or desirable is pure sentimentalist delusion and a wholly unecessary clinging to a now long-gone past. There is no practical reason why we would want the planet back, that's why for all these years, we haven't bothered trying to get it back. Somewhere in that fact, there's a clue you've woefully failed to grasp.
"Our homeworld is just planet, an inanimate object."
Well this is your opinion I suppose and I shall attempt to respect it, because I am the better Caldari and shall rise about your little attack. And would like to ask you a simple question, what justifies a war?
If I recall correctly you fought a personal war over words, and lost by the way. So your actually being a bity Hypocritical are you not?
Its ok for you to fight over mere words, but its not ok for an entire nation to try peacefully to resolve a matter of nation honour, knowing it has the military option if all else fails?
I suggest you moderate your tone in future transmissions because as ammusing as your childish behaviour is I don't really need to have my name associated with it. I have enough groupies dogging my shadow as it is.
We have nothing to do with each other outside of the fact that we are both Caldari and these debates a meant for meaningful discussion, and whilst I realise now that even the OP can't maintain a open mind I woudl have expected better things from the great Nooey.
Opinions differ, with your recent defeat by Shemar I would think that you would have learned to be more diplomatic when dealing with people of differing opinions lest you bite of more than you can chew....again....
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Strikeclone
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Posted - 2006.07.02 16:45:00 -
[41]
Edited by: The Associate on 02/07/2006 15:58:43
Originally by: Nooey
Nooey produces his State Citizen ID before commencing.
Strikeclone your idiocy knows no bounds. It's morons like you and Jenny that are the State's worst enemy. You would throw countless lives into a futile battle and sacrifice them on the altar of pseudo-patriotism. You disgust me.
hehehehe, ahh the latest addition to the Strikeclone flame troll herd bleats once again. I think you will find that I have consistantly said that I hope the matter can be resolved peacefully so as to save Caldari lives. I can quote myself if you like but I am sure a sheep of your calibre can "read". Which leads me to assume that you have not actually read anything I have said previously and that this is yet another baseless attack on me just because your a sore loser who gets duffed up by gallente pron directors.
Originally by: Nooey
You are the disgrace to all intelligent and truly patriotic Caldari Citizens, who have the practical sense to know and realise that the things you talk about are not only just insane, they're profoundly pathetic. Yet you have the audacity to spit out words like "traitor" at the people who have the sense to realise the reality of situations.
Stop saying talk is cheap only to ramble on unintelligibly about things you seriously have not the slightest clue, nor the tiniest amount of authority to speak about. Saying your a patriot, and being a patriot - they're two entirely different things, as Jenny Spitfire so aptly demonstrates every time her mouth opens and dribbles something out.
My translator had problems with this bit, it kept telling me it needs a upgrade to complete the translation, so the translation is only partially complete. I read
"waa waa waaaaa, muh! muh! baaaaa baaaa fking baaaa" If I can actually get a meaning full sentence from this part of nooey's text I shall see if a reply is needed, for now I shall just say, "mint sauce anyone?"
Originally by: Nooey
Caldari Prime will never belong to the Caldari again. We don't need it, and there's no reason why we would want it. It's a planet, we have plenty of them in State space. If you want to get all emotional about inanimate objects fine, but thinking an epic war to recapture aforementioned inanimate objects is somehow justified or desirable is pure sentimentalist delusion and a wholly unecessary clinging to a now long-gone past. There is no practical reason why we would want the planet back, that's why for all these years, we haven't bothered trying to get it back. Somewhere in that fact, there's a clue you've woefully failed to grasp.
"Our homeworld is just planet, an inanimate object."
Well this is your opinion I suppose and I shall attempt to respect it, because I am the better Caldari and shall rise about your little attack. And would like to ask you a simple question, what justifies a war?
If I recall correctly you fought a personal war over words, and lost by the way. So your actually being a bity Hypocritical are you not?
Its ok for you to fight over mere words, but its not ok for an entire nation to try peacefully to resolve a matter of nation honour, knowing it has the military option if all else fails?
I suggest you moderate your tone in future transmissions because as ammusing as your childish behaviour is I don't really need to have my name associated with it. I have enough groupies dogging my shadow as it is.
We have nothing to do with each other outside of the fact that we are both Caldari and these debates a meant for meaningful discussion, and whilst I realise now that even the OP can't maintain a open mind I woudl have expected better things from the great Nooey.
Opinions differ, with your recent defeat by Shemar I would think that you would have learned to be more diplomatic when dealing with people of differing opinions lest you bite of more than you can chew....again....
Strikeclone
Celer Et Audax
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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Britannica
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Posted - 2006.07.02 18:21:00 -
[42]
Quote:
Are you a liberal faction supporter? Because you sound like one of them with your fence sitting attitude, blaming everyone else for the current woes. Dont you want the Caldari people to have their homeworld back, have you no pride in the State?
I am proud of what the Caldari people have built since the end of the war, without the Gallente trade laws which are part of the reason the Caldari left the federation we have built the most economically powerful nation in the galaxy, if hating the notion of throwing all the Caldari race have achived in the last 100 years over a single planet makes me a liberal then so be it. we dont need a single planet to be a proud people
I would enjoy seeing the CEP holding a session on a state owned Caldari prime, but the one thing in the federation that has not changed in 200 years is their hatred of the idea of another nation owning soil within their home system
if it comes to taking the planet by force the Gallente will fight to the last man and if there is one sign we will retake the planet I believe the Gallente radicals would rather leave Caldari prime an inhosbitable rock than see the Caldari have our homeworld back
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Shintoko Akahoshi
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Posted - 2006.07.02 20:10:00 -
[43]
Okay, so I'm nominally still a citizen of the Federation, so I can balance out Nooey here. What, exactly, do you hope to gain by regaining Caldari Prime? I mean, the thing does sit in the middle of Luminaire. If the State regained the planet, and a bunch of State citizens moved there, you'd basically be setting a planetful of hostages right in front of the biggest Gallente naval fleet there is. With Blaque (who is a stupid, pandering cad in my opinion) gaining popularity, this would be a bad thing.
Although... There are a bunch of GalFed citizens living on Caldari Prime right now. I suppose if the State turned over a habit within the New Caldari system to the GalFed for these people to live on, it would even things out. After all, in todays distrustful environment, it's a good idea to have a little insurance on both sides. The last thing anybody in either nation needs is open war between them, except for those who are already fluent in Amarr...
The Red Mom of WarÖ
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Jon Engel
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Posted - 2006.07.02 20:33:00 -
[44]
I also see not the reason to pander over the loss of Caldari Prime. Mourn the dead, remember it's history, but move on with life. The Caldari State achieved much advancements in culture, economics and technological advancements without Caldari Prime.
The only way to fully reconcile the differences over this issue is for the Caldari to rejoin the Gallente Federation or the State to conquer the Federation........
That's not gonna happen.
The thing to ask ourselves in the coming months is who will fire the first shots of war? What will it be over? If history has taught us anything is that most war between Nations are over trivial piddly crap that couldve been avoided with simple dialogue and discussion.
The Federation won't hand over Caldari Prime, The State will not join the Federation, the State can not take and hold the vast federation territorys or hold back a militarized Federation while there battle lines are stretched from the Forge to Sing Liason, Verge Vendor, Essence, Placid, Solitude and so on.
The futility of war is a bastard on this cluster. Nothing gets achieved by it, nor can anyone let go.
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Kailea Shandrasekkar
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Posted - 2006.07.03 14:12:00 -
[45]
I'm bound to agree with Strike regarding Caldari Prime.
As far as i'm able to notice, to grow with no bounds to the past, with no real objectives, is just an invitation for doom to strike again. It's, as a gallente put it to me once, pure naivetT.
Technically yes, Caldari Prime is just a floating lump of rock, just as we are only animals. But we're not just animals. We're humans, and symbols are important to us.
Caldari Prime represents our past, our heritage. Gallente keeps Caldari Prime at its own peril; and to think that they aren't willing to recognize it as an amazing coin to be exchanged for friendship among our people - not to mention technological contribution and economical boost - boggles me.
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Father Abel
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Posted - 2006.07.03 15:23:00 -
[46]
Quote:
If history has taught us anything is that most war between Nations are over trivial piddly crap that couldve been avoided with simple dialogue and discussion.
History has not taught us this at all. Sure enough, there were fruitless wars. But these were a question of miscalculated costs v. benefits. There is scarcely a single issue in history that had been fought out in a war, that could have been resolved through dialogue.
Caldari Prime is non-negotiable. We must have it back.
Though I am not opposed to diplomatic means, diplomacy on this issue is an exercise in futility. The State knows what is at stake. The Federation knows what is at stake. Force is the only means left by which we can settle the issue.
_____________________
Father Abel - Midshipman
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
"Private property makes a free man a free man." |
Beringe
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Posted - 2006.07.03 20:47:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Father Abel
Caldari Prime is non-negotiable. We must have it back.
Not this again.
I could name twelve better reasons for us to go to war with the Gallente Federation. Why insiste on getting back a planet that no living Caldari remembers (away, all you pilgrims who insist you are special cases, I care not about the percentile of a percentile of the population you represent)?
The Federation would have to be disbanded in its current form to allow this. It would mean a war of genocidial proportions, for just another planet. There are *millions* of available planets!
No, you are buying into the "patriotic" frenzy which some groups have been keen on generating, for their own purposes. Don't you think the CEP would be speaking out on this if we actually needed that piece of historic rock?
In the mean time, I suggest you go visit it. See the sights, learn the lessons of history it has to offer. They are not inconsiderable.
-------------------------------------------
"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Karl Mattar
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Posted - 2006.07.03 20:48:00 -
[48]
I too find the matter of Caldari Prime non-negotiable. For a lasting peace between the Federation and the State to occur, this obstacle must be removed. Within this thread alone you can see how such a powerful symbol motivates people to hostility. To deny the power of this symbol is foolish. It will remain a source of bitterness and resentment until it is returned.
My desire for a negotiated return of our homeworld, and the establishment of a free trade zone, stands. I would see this done, and peace established, with a friendly discourse and a handshake. Otherwise, war will occur.
Until Caldari Prime is ours again, there can be no basis for equal and friendly relations with the Federation.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2006.07.03 20:51:00 -
[49]
Sometimes, I think the "patriotic" crowd is taking a cue from the minmatar rebellion.
Only, you forget that they may have an actual reason for being outraged (a discussion for another day). Their situation is current, while the only reason you have to demand old Caldari Prime back is pride...and hatred.
Are we then, when the dice are rolling and guns blazing, nothing but tribals with a grudge?
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"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Kailea Shandrasekkar
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Posted - 2006.07.03 21:26:00 -
[50]
Seems you believe that the so-called warmonger minority is rallying the Caldari people, influencing it trough common beliefs. Allow me to state that it cannot be won through coercion alone; i'm only stating that symbols have the ability to communicate effectively to a mass audience.
Symbolic power may result in securing material power - and that's what i see when Galente supporters ask, with a snicker, 'Why bother about this lump of rock?'
When we lose our symbols, we lose our power. I'll use your comparison, if you allow me; doing this, we're symbolical slaves to Gallente. They take it from our hands; they say 'it's my symbol now, my statement of superiority'; and you meekly say 'Ok, i'll accept that.'
This is a symbolic challenge. What will the Caldari people's answer be?
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Father Abel
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Posted - 2006.07.03 21:51:00 -
[51]
Quote:
the only reason you have to demand old Caldari Prime back is pride...and hatred.
What of it? A man steps into your house and takes it away from you. It's all right that he does this, so long as you can find some other place to live? So long as your stomach is full and your surroundings are comfortable? If that were the case, then any nation could step in and seize our land. We are an industrious people. We'll just pack up and start over elsewhere. Give it a few years and our old home would be just another "piece of rock".
Pardon me, but I have no interest in becoming a nation of vagabonds.
Property makes a free man a free man, because it is his kingdom. It cannot be touched. It must not be touched. It is an extension of his body. He owns it in the same manner that he owns his limbs. A state is validated only by its monopoly of violence, and the use of that violence to guarantee such a thing as property.
Caldari Prime is the property of the Caldari people. And the State cannot be wholly validated until it exercise guarantee of ownership over our property. We did not have a monopoly of violence back then, but we have such a monopoly now. Thus, it is only right that we do what we could not before do and reclaim what is ours.
The success of such a reclaiming is predicated on the fact of our power, whether we use it directly or not. Thus, I do not care whether we do it with guns or with words. But it is something that mustbe done.
_____________________
Father Abel - Midshipman
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
"Private property makes a free man a free man." |
Beringe
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Posted - 2006.07.03 22:04:00 -
[52]
You are conveniently ignoring what I said about the Federation having to be disbanded if they gave back Caldari Prime.
It's in the Luminaire system. They are never going to be able to live with a Caldari planet in the heart of the Federation. Perhaps it would have been possible hundreds of years ago, when those distances meant something. But now, it would be folly.
You are asking, no, demanding that they move the core of their government (and presumably, the people it represents) in order to accomidate your misplaced nostalgia. It is not reasonable.
Thus, you are demanding a genocidial war, with no chance of circumvention. Fair?
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"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Father Abel
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Posted - 2006.07.03 22:51:00 -
[53]
Seeing as how both our homeworlds occupy that system, I see no reason why the Federation has more claim to it than we do. When we seceded from the union, we did not demand that the Federation get up and move elsewhere. They were the ones who refused to let us create a nation of our own. They should have considered having a neighbor on more amicable terms than creating an enemy for generations to come.
Fair? What does that mean? The interests of the Caldari come before the interests of the Federation. You can argue however you like whether Caldari Prime is within the interests of the Caldari. I'll concede that much room to you. But throw fairness into the calculus? No, thank you. Humanitarian concerns for the enemy nation is the least of my considerations.
_____________________
Father Abel - Midshipman
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
"Private property makes a free man a free man." |
Beringe
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Posted - 2006.07.04 08:56:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Father Abel
Humanitarian concerns for the enemy nation is the least of my considerations.
How about humanitarian concern for ours?
You do realize that we would have to lay down countless Caldari lives to reclaim this ex-homeworld of ours, don't you? And then, we might, oh yes, we might lose.
The Federation is far larger than the State, and it will defend it's home system ferociously. When I speak of genocide, we need not be the protagonists...we could be the victims.
No symbol is worth such a price. I'd rather take pride in the memory of those who fought for our freedom, and not let their sacrifice be in vain.
-------------------------------------------
"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Britannica
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Posted - 2006.07.04 09:51:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Britannica on 04/07/2006 09:54:53
Edited by: Britannica on 04/07/2006 09:52:53
Edited by: Britannica on 04/07/2006 09:51:29
considering the current attitude the Gallente government has towards the Caldari people I feel they would rather detonate massive explosives they likely already have on Caldari prime and turn in to a cloud of dust than see us reclaim the world
it is very possible that the Caldari navy would have to bomb Gallente prime till all are dead to prevent them from destroying Caldari prime, after an act like that the Caldari people will be the shame of the universe and even more evil than the Ammar
I am not willing to 1) spend months or years watching the Caldari forces fighting for our home planet to watch the Gallente blow it up,2) be associated with a government which sanctions genocide, 3)stand by while warmongers throw away all the caldari state has achived since our people were forced off our homeworld.
the Gallente claim to love freedom, yet the Minmatar still enslaved have more freedom as they still have a homeworld and hope of returning to it. if the Gallente puplic can be shown their leaders are worse than the Ammarian holders while they use the Gallente population on Caldari prime as a human shield against large scale invasion, we can gain the support of their civilian population and reclaim control of our homeworld with very little loss. perhaps we should also be trying to show the Minmatar they have allied themselves with a nation of hypocrites and liers, at least the Ammar are honest about their evils
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Strikeclone
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Posted - 2006.07.04 12:09:00 -
[56]
There are many valid points being made here, but also too many of you are stating things in absolutes. Not only that but you are talking about things which you can't know the answer too.
Beringe, no one is asking for the gallente governemt/peoples to up and move out of luminaire where did this concept come from? You, only you.
I want Cadlari Prime back because as my learned comrades from CAIN/KD have eloquently pointed out it is ours, and in order for it to remain our we must demostrate the ability to keep it. This by exstention includes the whole State, if we are willing to forget a whole planet, billions of people and the murder of millions more what does this say to the universe?
It says we are weak, and can't look to our own. The world is fully of vultures and packrats who will seize any show of weakness as a sign to attack.
I say to Beringe and all the others who will talk complete rubbish in order to appease the gallentes, escrow me your ships, and all your equipment and send me all you money.
After all its only a few ships and guns and a few ISK, you can always get more.
Of course you will tell me to go to hell, and rightly so. Because you lack the courage of your convictions, you wouldhave us leave behind forever an entire planet but you would not part with your battleship to stand by your principles.
I await your escrow and cash with breathless anticipation......
Strikeclone
Celer Et Audax
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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Britannica
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Posted - 2006.07.04 13:08:00 -
[57]
after retaking Caldari prime, after the loss of most of the caldari fleet and billions of caldari lives. how do you suggest the Caldari defend the system from anyone else who wishes to take Caldari prime as theirs?
after a battle as big as what is needed, as costly as needed to retake Caldari prime, niether the Caldari nor gallente could hope to defend Luminaire from any other nation or organisation who arrives with the intention of conquest
would you fight a loosing battle and risk the complete extinction or enslavement of the Caldari people?
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Strikeclone
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Posted - 2006.07.04 18:05:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Britannica
after retaking Caldari prime, after the loss of most of the caldari fleet and billions of caldari lives. how do you suggest the Caldari defend the system from anyone else who wishes to take Caldari prime as theirs?[/quote[
And you are basing this sweeping statement on what empirical data? OR are you a senior Caldari Navy analyst with access to restricted information on fleet strengths and dispositions of both Caldari and gallente fleets?
Or are you a completely craven coward who must attempt to sway others, with such alarmist and defeatist scaremongering. PResent your evidence to support such claims as you have made or else be off with you.
And just to clarify I don't think any one here is rattling sabres as a prelude to talks, quite the opposite. No one wants to see the CN drenched in blood, but for talks to succeed that must be done from a position of strength. Currently we (the State) have never been stronger in my honest opinion.
Originally by: Britannica
after a battle as big as what is needed, as costly as needed to retake Caldari prime, niether the Caldari nor gallente could hope to defend Luminaire from any other nation or organisation who arrives with the intention of conquest
Yes because the universe is filled with Minmatar and Amarr just chomping at the bit to travel 20/30/40+ jumps to take a system with absolutely no interest to them.
So we should never fight, not even as it will leave us vulnerable to someone, somewhere, with some kind of agenda.........I refer you to my earlier comment about craven, and cowardice.
Originally by: Britannica
would you fight a loosing battle and risk the complete extinction or enslavement of the Caldari people?
Over statement much, lets see we fought a war of liberation for something like a hundred years. After which we became the most stable power in the cluster, with the most high-tech navy, with a civilized population of industrious workers.
Not exactly exstinction or enslavement, I hardly think that a military campaign to Luminaire if deemed appropiate by the CEP will result in the collapse of either the Cadalri State or the gallente federation.
Whiney little ferrets like you are not helping the diplomatic process by carrying on as you are. Now either find something factual to say, that you can prove or at least demostrate not to be the complete ravings of a mad man, or be silent and let the adults take care of it.
Are you a loyal Caldari or not, because craven and cowardice are not words that apply to us.
Strikeclone
Celer Et Audax
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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Regat Kozovv
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Posted - 2006.07.05 16:40:00 -
[59]
I need to issue an apoligy to Strikeclone as I attributed his statements as indicating that he wished to invade Caldari Prime when he infact did not. Reading back over his comments I believe he has adaquately stated the risks involved in retaking the planet through military means.
It does seem however that before we are to mend any relations with the Gallente or tackle other matters, the question of Caldari Prime must be settled. As the discussion has showed thus far, we seem to be divided into two camps: Those who demand for the world's return to Caldari soverignity, and those willing to let it go. I have already let me opinion on this matter be known.
The reasons for retaking the planet seem to be more emotional and historical in nature, and as a result, lead to arguments that degenerate into the inflamatory. Please note this when framing your arguments; and I myself will pay closer attention to my comments in the future.
I do still hold a great deal of concern over the amount of feelings held regarding a world who's importance seems historical at best. I still cannot find a convincing reason to pursue the world whether it be through diplomatic means or the use of force. Either method would likely inflame the Gallente Federation, which I argued in my earlier posts, is deterimental to our long term goals.
We can attempt to ask that the world be returned, but this is highly unlikely to happen, for two reasons: First, Caldari Prime is home to many Gallente citizens, and the Federation will not be keen on uprooting them. Second, they will most likely not be to keen on the prospect of a Caldari world inhabiting the same solar system as their homeworld, deep within their territority.
If we look at these two issues had our roles been reversed, I think it's quite clear that we would be hesitant to relequinish the world as well.
This leaves two options: Conquer the world through force, or let it go. The first I see as unecessary. The second I see as a must.
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Britannica
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Posted - 2006.07.05 19:10:00 -
[60]
perhaps I have also jumped to conclusions upon reading strikeclones comments, I do feel he has been over the top in claiming those caldari willing to let go of the memories a lost homeworld are cowards
any attempt to destroy the Guristas I will support 100%, and I will defend the citizens of the state if attacked. just because a person believes reclaiming caldari prime is a pointless endevour by diplomacy or military doesnt mean thay are cowards
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